Guild Wars 2

Just read the new info on the Mastery System, and i’m a bit underwhelmed…
When i read about different areas unlocking different masteries was thinking it might be something along the reward tracks of Spvp (Kryta, Shiverpeaks, Maguma, Orr…) instead of old content or new content. Having specifics for each area would be that extra incentive to go out and revisit old areas. I was actually stoked when i read about it, only to get disappointed in the following sentence.

Also the list of Mastery categories seems limited, but i understand that it might not be the best indicator to the number of masteries available.

Now my main concern is the replacement of Skill Points (SP), which are a heavily used currency for anyone that does stuff in the Mystic Forge, with the Mastery Points (MP). Why not just award both? Wouldn’t it be better for the players to still have that steady, reliable source of SP?

Finally, apparently Masteries aren’t unlocked unless you buy the Expansion. What happens to those lvl 80 Chars that don’t have the expansion for whichever reason? Will the get stunted in both ways, not gaining SP and not gaining MP? Or will those still earn SP, which might keep people from acquiring the expansion to amass SP beforehand.

I don’t know, it seems illogical to me that SP is just completely replaced with MP, which, to me, crates that doubt about whether or not farming SP might be a good idea in the near future. When we could simply receive both. I mean, why not? After 80 and you unlock all skills, SP is just currency, having SP+MP with each full Mastery bar doesn’t seem to affect any kind of balance, and specially for those that are new to the game won’t make it that much harder to gain SP and use the mystic forge.

I think you misunderstood the area part.
They said there will be two major groups at release. One for HoT content and one for Old content.
It does however still sound like you need to do specific things in specific maps in order to actually unlock the Masteries.

The list of Mastery categories was clearly stated as a couple of examples, not a full list.

The amount of SP scrolls obtainable in-game right now is rather massive. They also stated in the blog that high-level areas will reward more skill points in order to make up for it.
It is quite likely that the new adventure things rewards skill-points for example.

About the Skill Points, we don’t know how quickly or slowly the Mastery Bar fills up compared to the current Experience bar, and I assume that is the main reason that we won’t get both. Don’t forget, they did mention they are adding more ways to get SP from in game content

ReaverKane.7598:

Just read the new info on the Mastery System, and i’m a bit underwhelmed…
When i read about different areas unlocking different masteries was thinking it might be something along the reward tracks of Spvp (Kryta, Shiverpeaks, Maguma, Orr…) instead of old content or new content. Having specifics for each area would be that extra incentive to go out and revisit old areas. I was actually stoked when i read about it, only to get disappointed in the following sentence.

Also the list of Mastery categories seems limited, but i understand that it might not be the best indicator to the number of masteries available.

Now my main concern is the replacement of Skill Points (SP), which are a heavily used currency for anyone that does stuff in the Mystic Forge, with the Mastery Points (MP). Why not just award both? Wouldn’t it be better for the players to still have that steady, reliable source of SP?

Finally, apparently Masteries aren’t unlocked unless you buy the Expansion. What happens to those lvl 80 Chars that don’t have the expansion for whichever reason? Will the get stunted in both ways, not gaining SP and not gaining MP? Or will those still earn SP, which might keep people from acquiring the expansion to amass SP beforehand.

I don’t know, it seems illogical to me that SP is just completely replaced with MP, which, to me, crates that doubt about whether or not farming SP might be a good idea in the near future. When we could simply receive both. I mean, why not? After 80 and you unlock all skills, SP is just currency, having SP+MP with each full Mastery bar doesn’t seem to affect any kind of balance, and specially for those that are new to the game won’t make it that much harder to gain SP and use the mystic forge.

1. Mastery system in old maps won’t be nearly as evolved as the new ones. Because the base-game wasn’t created to support masteries and they won’t be able to put it in place in a nitch manner unelss you await them to revamp the entire game and recreate content for every single map in the game.
2. These were examples of mastery tracks, not a full list.
3. People without the expansion will probably get access to mastery points in the old maps. It doesn’t make sense to prevent them from getting mastery points and skill points. 4. Anet said that they are going to add new ways to gain skill points.

I agree that the problem here is in the wording and I really hope now that Anet has done their post that they are also willing to actually answer concerns.

I have to say that I agree with the worry about the “need expansion for mastery” and the lack of SP gain could hurt people that have not bought the xpac. Sure there will be other ways to gain SP, but what if you have a new toon that hasn’t even gotten all your traits and had been relying on those SP for filling that out as well?

How does this tie into a (hopefully) fixed traits problem that is supposedly on the horizon?

Also, please clarify Anet: Only people that buy the xpac and therefore unlock the Mastery system can hope to craft a precursor? If not they are still beholden to the RNG or buy it system? Are you really going to tell your game population that the one thing most if not all have been clamoring for (and which got many cheers during your Twitch event) is only going to be available to those that can or want to pony up?

My big questions, are
1) Will we be able to unlock all of the mastery tiers, and how easy/hard would it be? Will it be like trying to get all the World versus World WXP abilities?
2) Will we be allowed to relocate Mastery points, or will they be a permanent choice like Skill Points?
3) Are the points account bound, or are the upgrades account bound? For example, will they be like the WXP abilities or once spent will they be allocated in that manner for all characters?

nGumball.1283:

1. Mastery system in old maps won’t be nearly as evolved as the new ones. Because the base-game wasn’t created to support masteries and they won’t be able to put it in place in a nitch manner unelss you await them to revamp the entire game and recreate content for every single map in the game.
2. These were examples of mastery tracks, not a full list.
3. People without the expansion will probably get access to mastery points in the old maps. It doesn’t make sense to prevent them from getting mastery points and skill points. 4. Anet said that they are going to add new ways to gain skill points.

1. Just because there’s no jungle to travel doesn’t mean there’s no lore to be found, no stuff to be collected, etc. Idk, maybe i misinterpreted the sentence, and there will still be incentive to go to each individual area for the masteries. Just think it would be cool.

3.

The ability to train Masteries is unlocked at level 80 for all players that own Heart of Thorns.

This is what it says. It says nothing about half for each. So my question stands. What happens to those without the expansion?

4.
While i’m writting stuff is clicking in my head, and it might be that they find it “unfair” that for example you gain Sp for just riding a glider or reaching a certain location, thus making it too easy to gain SP (if that’s a thing). It feels kinda icky to me though. Idk guess we’ll see when its ready.

Morsus.5106:

My big questions, are
1) Will we be able to unlock all of the mastery tiers, and how easy/hard would it be? Will it be like trying to get all the World versus World WXP abilities?
2) Will we be allowed to relocate Mastery points, or will they be a permanent choice like Skill Points?
3) Are the points account bound, or are the upgrades account bound? For example, will they be like the WXP abilities or once spent will they be allocated in that manner for all characters?

What I’ve gotten from the interviews and blog posts is this:

1. You can eventually unlock them all. Difficulty of doing so varies with how you spent some mastery points, as you may, for example, need to hang glide to reach some mastery points. Ergo, to unlock all of them, there are some specific ones you need to unlock first. May be able to get more than the necessary amount, though.

2. No relocating them. Once they’re unlocked, they’re unlocked.

3. Unknown. It seems as though the mastery lines are account-wide unlocks, but the actual level in each track is character-bound. Difficult to tell, though.

ReaverKane.7598:

This is what it says. It says nothing about half for each. So my question stands. What happens to those without the expansion?

They probably don’t get masteries because they didn’t buy access to the expansion. If you didn’t have to buy the expansion to get the cool stuff, no one would buy it. AFAIK you couldn’t play to the new level cap in WoW or SWTOR without buy the expansion, so here you won’t get to continue progressing unless you buy the expansion. It’s pretty standard fare for MMOs I thought.

first 2 sentences after “How do i get masteries?”

The ability to train Masteries is unlocked at level 80 for all players that own Heart of Thorns. When this ability is unlocked, your character’s experience bar will change to become a Mastery training bar while in PvE zones

from that i gather 2 things:
1. masteries are only for people with HoT
2. WvW will not be included and will likely still award SP at level up (same for people w/o HoT)

What really worries me is a small throwaway line in “Fractal masteries” description about unlocking “more powerful infusions”.
I thought we weren’t supposed to get any gear creep…

Hopefully the Mastery system will have fun contained in it as well. I like the Collection system and hope that rewards will be doled out through masteries.

The masteries thus far seem super specific to specific places. I really feel bummed we can’t glide in the main map(at least that’s how it seems). JP’s are usually vertical in nature and you have to go from bottom to top to advance so I don’t see it as game breaking in PvE. I’d love to glide off the diving board in LA and myriad other places. Hopefully they allow for it in certain places besides HoT maps.

Here is where my main concern lies: the utilization of Mastery skills.

Let’s use the Gliding Mastery, for example. From the way it was worded out, it seems that my fears may be realized in that the gliding part is going to just be limited to the Maguuma jungle. I can understand that gliding may be essential to explore more unknown areas that would be impossible to do by jumping or walking, but at the same time, I feel like I am grinding for a mode of transportation that I can’t use wherever I please. I’d really appreciate it all the more if the Gliding mastery extends to the core GW2 areas (excluding dungeons, WvW, EotM and HotM instances) as there are plenty of high areas for players just go “wheeee” when they ride on a glider though it would not be on a greater scale nor would it be practical to do so as the Maguuma area.

Please consider this feedback piece, Arenanet as you work and refine your expansion.

Astralporing.1957:

What really worries me is a small throwaway line in “Fractal masteries” description about unlocking “more powerful infusions”.
I thought we weren’t supposed to get any gear creep…

Indeed.

But it could be something along the lines of “Add +10 stats (only active in Fractals)” I would say.

Or simply: “Do x% more damage against enemies in Fractals” like the WvW specific Infusions.

Malkavian.4516:

Here is where my main concern lies: the utilization of Mastery skills.

Let’s use the Gliding Mastery, for example. From the way it was worded out, it seems that my fears may be realized in that the gliding part is going to just be limited to the Maguuma jungle. I can understand that gliding may be essential to explore more unknown areas that would be impossible to do by jumping or walking, but at the same time, I feel like I am grinding for a mode of transportation that I can’t use wherever I please. I’d really appreciate it all the more if the Gliding mastery extends to the core GW2 areas (excluding dungeons, WvW, EotM and HotM instances) as there are plenty of high areas for players just go “wheeee” when they ride on a glider though it would not be on a greater scale as the Maguuma area.

Please consider this feedback piece, Arenanet as you work and refine your expansion.

That would require more or less a complete rebuild of most of the maps in the game. Seeing as they are not built around being able to semi-fly and as such being able to do so might very well break them quite a bit.

lordkrall.7241:

Astralporing.1957:

What really worries me is a small throwaway line in “Fractal masteries” description about unlocking “more powerful infusions”.
I thought we weren’t supposed to get any gear creep…

Indeed.

But it could be something along the lines of “Add +10 stats (only active in Fractals)” I would say.

Or simply: “Do x% more damage against enemies in Fractals” like the WvW specific Infusions.

Or infusions that are “+5 stat, + X Agony Resistance” where X>5. Technically, that’s a “more powerful infusion” than we already have in-game, but outside of Fractals, it doesn’t mean anything different from the ones we already can get.

lordkrall.7241:

Malkavian.4516:

Here is where my main concern lies: the utilization of Mastery skills.

Let’s use the Gliding Mastery, for example. From the way it was worded out, it seems that my fears may be realized in that the gliding part is going to just be limited to the Maguuma jungle. I can understand that gliding may be essential to explore more unknown areas that would be impossible to do by jumping or walking, but at the same time, I feel like I am grinding for a mode of transportation that I can’t use wherever I please. I’d really appreciate it all the more if the Gliding mastery extends to the core GW2 areas (excluding dungeons, WvW, EotM and HotM instances) as there are plenty of high areas for players just go “wheeee” when they ride on a glider though it would not be on a greater scale as the Maguuma area.

Please consider this feedback piece, Arenanet as you work and refine your expansion.

That would require more or less a complete rebuild of most of the maps in the game. Seeing as they are not built around being able to semi-fly and as such being able to do so might very well break them quite a bit.

Hmmm….. there is that. But at the same time, there are plenty of high areas, especially in the Shiverpeaks, that seem conducive for hang-gliding.

Either way, I am confident Arenanet could put in that little nudge of effort to make that possible. And while I would really want to see that realized, I’ll also not hold my breath on it.

lordkrall.7241:

Astralporing.1957:

What really worries me is a small throwaway line in “Fractal masteries” description about unlocking “more powerful infusions”.
I thought we weren’t supposed to get any gear creep…

Indeed.

But it could be something along the lines of “Add +10 stats (only active in Fractals)” I would say.

Or simply: “Do x% more damage against enemies in Fractals” like the WvW specific Infusions.

As long as it is +% agony damage reduction, better +AR ones, +%damage to/-%damage from enemies in fractals, or even better utiliy ones, i’m okay with it, i guess. If there are some just plain better +stat ones, now, that would be a problem.

That still can result in invalidating all currently posessed infusions, and need to partial regearing. That was specifically one of the things Mike O’Brien said won’t happen, so i’m not sure yet how i’m to take it.

I hope for some relatively fast clarification.

lordkrall.7241:

Astralporing.1957:

What really worries me is a small throwaway line in “Fractal masteries” description about unlocking “more powerful infusions”.
I thought we weren’t supposed to get any gear creep…

Indeed.

But it could be something along the lines of “Add +10 stats (only active in Fractals)” I would say.

Or simply: “Do x% more damage against enemies in Fractals” like the WvW specific Infusions.

Or it could be infusions like +10 Agony Resistance for armor/weapons.

I’m pretty sure it was stated in one of the interviews (can’t remember which), that they specifically said hang gliding is only available in the Maguuma maps.

https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/reimagining-progression-the-mastery-system/

The ability to train Masteries is unlocked at level 80 for all players that own Heart of Thorns.

This needs to be clarified/fixed ASAP. This has to be a mistake, because the ramifications of such a decision are extremely bad

zerorogue.9410:

This needs to be clarified/fixed ASAP. This has to be a mistake, because the ramifications of such a decision are extremely bad

What needs to be clarified?

You need to buy the expansion in order to get access to the expansion system. Simple as that.

Morsus.5106:

They probably don’t get masteries because they didn’t buy access to the expansion. If you didn’t have to buy the expansion to get the cool stuff, no one would buy it. AFAIK you couldn’t play to the new level cap in WoW or SWTOR without buy the expansion, so here you won’t get to continue progressing unless you buy the expansion. It’s pretty standard fare for MMOs I thought.

Thing is, its not just not getting new stuff, they’ll still get Sp taken away from them. Atm there’s still too much alck of information, but already it seems that there’s too much “buy it or lose” it around this expansion. It all seems to point that people will miss out on the conclusion of the LS cliffhanger without the expansion. Now on Skill Points. It just seems to pile on stuff that “forces” people to buy it or leave themselves kitten. (As if not getting the new stuff wasn’t enough of a handicap).
I’m really not speaking for myself, unless a disaster strikes i’ll be on the forefront to purchasing it, but just the principle of the thing kinda Irks me.

Astralporing.1957:

What really worries me is a small throwaway line in “Fractal masteries” description about unlocking “more powerful infusions”.
I thought we weren’t supposed to get any gear creep…

It doesn’t have to be a gear creep. Can be simply more alternatives, like straight up +10 versatiles with no stats, or tie-ins to the mastery system like infusions that give more gllider time, etc.

Malkavian.4516:

Here is where my main concern lies: the utilization of Mastery skills.

Let’s use the Gliding Mastery, for example. From the way it was worded out, it seems that my fears may be realized in that the gliding part is going to just be limited to the Maguuma jungle. I can understand that gliding may be essential to explore more unknown areas that would be impossible to do by jumping or walking, but at the same time, I feel like I am grinding for a mode of transportation that I can’t use wherever I please. I’d really appreciate it all the more if the Gliding mastery extends to the core GW2 areas (excluding dungeons, WvW, EotM and HotM instances) as there are plenty of high areas for players just go “wheeee” when they ride on a glider though it would not be on a greater scale nor would it be practical to do so as the Maguuma area.

Please consider this feedback piece, Arenanet as you work and refine your expansion.

I feel like you, but i understand why this is impossible. As it is there’s already lots of instances where players have found ways to go “off-map”, now imagine with gliders on maps that weren’t designed with such a easy way to go upwards. I mean there’s a ton of maps where you can almost climb on top of the map edges, with gliders it would be too simple to do that, and would force the devs to redesign the edges, and possibly alter a great deal of the map. Not to mention that many a jumping puzzle would be rendered 1-glide rides.

Reading your post i’m more thinking on how you’ll actually “trigger” the glider… Does the game detect a free-fall and replace your 1-5? Double jump?

Back to skill points and whatnot, i re-read the whole thing, and either my English comprehension is not as good as i would hope (not my main language), or it could still work with awarding a Mastery progression + SP-

So what i got from re-reading is that this is kind of a mix between WXP points and SpvP reward tracks. You gain Mastery points through various stuff, which you use to unlock a mastery track (similar to how you earn WXP points to improve the abilities).
After unlocking the tracks, you equip one and you progress along it, kinda like how SPvP tracks work, right?
If so, the progress tracking could still award you Sp whenever you’d reach a certain tier within an ability?

Also arises a new concern, will we really be able to unlock all tracks?
I’m really excited to see this in action, and i really hope they get this right.

lordkrall.7241:

zerorogue.9410:

This needs to be clarified/fixed ASAP. This has to be a mistake, because the ramifications of such a decision are extremely bad

What needs to be clarified?

You need to buy the expansion in order to get access to the expansion system. Simple as that.

The problem is this will be opening a skyscraper sized can of worms if they do it this way. I can’t see them do such a thing.

zerorogue.9410:

The problem is this will be opening a skyscraper sized can of worms if they do it this way. I can’t see them do such a thing.

Why?
It is rather unusual for systems added with expansions to be added for people that does not buy said expansion.

It is not like you NEED the new Masteries to play the current game.
It sounds like you might need it for certain things in the Jungle, but in order to get to the Jungle you would need the expansion in the first place anyway.

lordkrall.7241:

zerorogue.9410:

The problem is this will be opening a skyscraper sized can of worms if they do it this way. I can’t see them do such a thing.

Why?
It is rather unusual for systems added with expansions to be added for people that does not buy said expansion.

Seems to me that the “new character progression system” is something that should be accessible for everyone (even if most masteries would, in fact, be limited to HoT). They have already said that this is a core system they intend to build the game on from this point onward, not something that can be safely left for buyers of this expansion with no unpleasant side effects. For one, it simply has no sense to make two systems running side to side in parralel, for another they also said that their new trait system will be tied to masteries. So (if i understood it right) the new Legendary precursor crafting system.

Remember also, that not all masteries are for HoT zones only, there’s at least the fractal one (and possibly some more that weren’t mentioned yet), that are aimed at core content.

lordkrall.7241:

zerorogue.9410:

The problem is this will be opening a skyscraper sized can of worms if they do it this way. I can’t see them do such a thing.

Why?
It is rather unusual for systems added with expansions to be added for people that does not buy said expansion.

It is not like you NEED the new Masteries to play the current game.
It sounds like you might need it for certain things in the Jungle, but in order to get to the Jungle you would need the expansion in the first place anyway.

If the mastery system was limited to the jungle there would be no issue. However if what was said is true, they are adding a system that will increase your combat abilities behind a pay-gate to into the game in general. Something like this will cause very serious issues.

zerorogue.9410:

If the mastery system was limited to the jungle there would be no issue. However if what was said is true, they are adding a system that will increase your combat abilities behind a pay-gate to into the game in general. Something like this will cause very serious issues.

As far as I read it the combat abilities seems tied to the enemies faced in the Jungle, so that shouldn’t be much of an issue.

I also still don’t see the issue, since clearly it is fully possible to play the standard game now without the Masteries, why would it suddenly become impossible after the expansion?

ReaverKane.7598:

Malkavian.4516:

Here is where my main concern lies: the utilization of Mastery skills.

Let’s use the Gliding Mastery, for example. From the way it was worded out, it seems that my fears may be realized in that the gliding part is going to just be limited to the Maguuma jungle. I can understand that gliding may be essential to explore more unknown areas that would be impossible to do by jumping or walking, but at the same time, I feel like I am grinding for a mode of transportation that I can’t use wherever I please. I’d really appreciate it all the more if the Gliding mastery extends to the core GW2 areas (excluding dungeons, WvW, EotM and HotM instances) as there are plenty of high areas for players just go “wheeee” when they ride on a glider though it would not be on a greater scale nor would it be practical to do so as the Maguuma area.

Please consider this feedback piece, Arenanet as you work and refine your expansion.

I feel like you, but i understand why this is impossible. As it is there’s already lots of instances where players have found ways to go “off-map”, now imagine with gliders on maps that weren’t designed with such a easy way to go upwards. I mean there’s a ton of maps where you can almost climb on top of the map edges, with gliders it would be too simple to do that, and would force the devs to redesign the edges, and possibly alter a great deal of the map. Not to mention that many a jumping puzzle would be rendered 1-glide rides.

Reading your post i’m more thinking on how you’ll actually “trigger” the glider… Does the game detect a free-fall and replace your 1-5? Double jump?

I am starting to understand the logic behind it. But at the same time, I can’t help but feel that Arenanet is playing it safe with that particular mastery, which isn’t a bad thing. It just feels a bit sad that so much potential could have been had just by adding that particular feature throughout the rest of Tyria’s explorable regions. I suppose I could just live through the fact that I can just show off my mastery by being a druid.

lordkrall.7241:

zerorogue.9410:

If the mastery system was limited to the jungle there would be no issue. However if what was said is true, they are adding a system that will increase your combat abilities behind a pay-gate to into the game in general. Something like this will cause very serious issues.

As far as I read it the combat abilities seems tied to the enemies faced in the Jungle, so that shouldn’t be much of an issue.

I also still don’t see the issue, since clearly it is fully possible to play the standard game now without the Masteries, why would it suddenly become impossible after the expansion?

It says in the post that

Master Fractals: Uncover new depths in the Fractals of the Mists to gain powerful new abilities to overcome difficult fractal challenges, garner greater rewards, and unlock more powerful infusions.

If what is said here is true, that means Non-HoT players will not only be blocked from advancing any further in fractals, but any organized group will most definitely have “HoT Plrs ONLY” on their LFG. Something has to be a mistake in the article otherwise Anet has crossed a line they themselves promised not to cross.

A useless checklist for our character. Are they sure they don’t want to make this dlc free ?

lordkrall.7241:

As far as I read it the combat abilities seems tied to the enemies faced in the Jungle, so that shouldn’t be much of an issue.

I also still don’t see the issue, since clearly it is fully possible to play the standard game now without the Masteries, why would it suddenly become impossible after the expansion?

Actually, the way they phrased it, it seems that combat will also apply to old maps.

Master Lore: Attunement with new ally races can be trained to understand their language, unlocking secret locations and access to battle techniques that can weaken your shared enemies.

By this logic, learning, for example, Kodan Lore would make you stronger against Iceborn, something not available for Non-expansion owners.
Its not really just that, i mean its the LS also, and the fact that they won’t earn SP but won’t earn masteries either, seems kinda unfair.

Malkavian.4516:

I am starting to understand the logic behind it. But at the same time, I can’t help but feel that Arenanet is playing it safe with that particular mastery, which isn’t a bad thing. It just feels a bit sad that so much potential could have been had just by adding that particular feature throughout the rest of Tyria’s explorable regions. I suppose I could just live through the fact that I can just show off my mastery by being a druid.

I don’t know about playing safe, but it would require them rebuilding all maps, and that’s not something you just do.
But trust me when i say i feel you. My brother dragged me on to play Archeage during his Xmas break. And when i was back in GW2 during that time, i always found myself double tapping Space (one way to use gliders in AA) to go faster to where i was going.
It would be awesome, but AA was made for gliders, all the maps are connected, and even still each area is surrounded by huge mountains which are either impossible to glide into, or just really hard, so much so that people actually exploit this fact (although not with gliders) to make money faster by taking a massive shortcut on one of the trade routes by cutting through the mountains. On GW2 this kind of shortcut would be very game-breaking because the maps aren’t connected in reality and thus you’d end up in limbo, totally shattering immersion. Not to mention that the fact you can go to the “underworld” as some call it can be used to access already hard to reach areas and some that should be impossible… Adding one more tool to do this.. Not great.

zerorogue.9410:

lordkrall.7241:

zerorogue.9410:

If the mastery system was limited to the jungle there would be no issue. However if what was said is true, they are adding a system that will increase your combat abilities behind a pay-gate to into the game in general. Something like this will cause very serious issues.

As far as I read it the combat abilities seems tied to the enemies faced in the Jungle, so that shouldn’t be much of an issue.

I also still don’t see the issue, since clearly it is fully possible to play the standard game now without the Masteries, why would it suddenly become impossible after the expansion?

It says in the post that

Master Fractals: Uncover new depths in the Fractals of the Mists to gain powerful new abilities to overcome difficult fractal challenges, garner greater rewards, and unlock more powerful infusions.

If what is said here is true, that means Non-HoT players will not only be blocked from advancing any further in fractals, but any organized group will most definitely have “HoT Plrs ONLY” on their LFG. Something has to be a mistake in the article otherwise Anet has crossed a line they themselves promised not to cross.

My guess is they are planning on releasing Fractals content that requires the xpac to even get into so for those players that want to play on those maps (since they are instanced anyway), they will just not be available for players without the xpac and therefore won’t need those masteries. That’s my take away at least.

Simzani.4318:

A useless checklist for our character. Are they sure they don’t want to make this dlc free ?

Maybe i can now finally run HotW efficiently and without shooting my brains out.

Astralporing.1957:

What really worries me is a small throwaway line in “Fractal masteries” description about unlocking “more powerful infusions”.
I thought we weren’t supposed to get any gear creep…

We were told over a year ago that stronger infusions were coming. I don’t recall who said it though; whether it was Brian or Colin. It was right around the time that it was stated that they didn’t see a need for another gear tier. I think I brought it up as a point of contention in the progression CDIs.

ReaverKane.7598:

Thing is, its not just not getting new stuff, they’ll still get Sp taken away from them. Atm there’s still too much alck of information, but already it seems that there’s too much “buy it or lose” it around this expansion. It all seems to point that people will miss out on the conclusion of the LS cliffhanger without the expansion. Now on Skill Points. It just seems to pile on stuff that “forces” people to buy it or leave themselves kitten. (As if not getting the new stuff wasn’t enough of a handicap).
I’m really not speaking for myself, unless a disaster strikes i’ll be on the forefront to purchasing it, but just the principle of the thing kinda Irks me.

1. We don’t know that players who don’t buy the expansion will have their Skill points on level up taken away. You’re basing this all on speculation.
2. Well what would you do about the cliffhanger ending? Everyone who bought Harry Potter and the Goblet of Fire (or saw it in theaters) did not get a free copy of Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix, they had to buy the next part of the story. Those who went to see Captain America: First Avenger did not get a free ticket to see Marvel’s The Avengers. Just because there’s a cliffhanger ending doesn’t mean you are entitled to see the next part of the story for free.
3. The “new stuff” is reserved for those who paid for it. With the exception of Eve Online most MMOs require you to purchase the new content to play it. You are not entitled to get the new content that the developers have made just because you bought the base game.

ReaverKane.7598:

Just read the new info on the Mastery System, and i’m a bit underwhelmed…
When i read about different areas unlocking different masteries was thinking it might be something along the reward tracks of Spvp (Kryta, Shiverpeaks, Maguma, Orr…) instead of old content or new content. Having specifics for each area would be that extra incentive to go out and revisit old areas. I was actually stoked when i read about it, only to get disappointed in the following sentence.

Also the list of Mastery categories seems limited, but i understand that it might not be the best indicator to the number of masteries available.

Now my main concern is the replacement of Skill Points (SP), which are a heavily used currency for anyone that does stuff in the Mystic Forge, with the Mastery Points (MP). Why not just award both? Wouldn’t it be better for the players to still have that steady, reliable source of SP?

Finally, apparently Masteries aren’t unlocked unless you buy the Expansion. What happens to those lvl 80 Chars that don’t have the expansion for whichever reason? Will the get stunted in both ways, not gaining SP and not gaining MP? Or will those still earn SP, which might keep people from acquiring the expansion to amass SP beforehand.

I don’t know, it seems illogical to me that SP is just completely replaced with MP, which, to me, crates that doubt about whether or not farming SP might be a good idea in the near future. When we could simply receive both. I mean, why not? After 80 and you unlock all skills, SP is just currency, having SP+MP with each full Mastery bar doesn’t seem to affect any kind of balance, and specially for those that are new to the game won’t make it that much harder to gain SP and use the mystic forge.

Don’t make a thread based upon your own failure in reading a dev blog post.
It clearly says that skillpoints will be removed from past-80 leveling, and instead gained from high level content. HoT owners will get Mastery progression from leveling, non-HoT owners will not. Skillpoints are available to gain for both in the same way. But not in the traditional way past-80. The Mastery points is an addition and a reassignment, not a game-wide replacement.
Hope that gives structure to your high pre-expansion entropy.

I would hope that players that don’t buy the expansion would at least have access to the “old map” masteries, giving them some amount of progression.

Ohoni.6057:

I would hope that players that don’t buy the expansion would at least have access to the “old map” masteries, giving them some amount of progression.

They won’t, according to the blog.

The ability to train Masteries is unlocked at level 80 for all players that own Heart of Thorns.

Ohoni.6057:

I would hope that players that don’t buy the expansion would at least have access to the “old map” masteries, giving them some amount of progression.

My guess is “nope”.

Well, sorta lie. i think they might get messages that they’ve earned mastery points, but will have no way to interact with them, spend them, grow on those fronts until they buy the xpac. Imagine the trait system as it is now, with getting pop ups that you’ve unlocked a trait, but have no way to looking over it or doing anything with them unless you bought the update. I think that’s how it will roll.

They won’t, according to the blog.

Yeah. . . but hopefully that’s more a slip of the tongue, or something they’ll backtrack on. I mean, if they let players that don’t buy the expansion continue to accumulate SP, then that might actually end up better in some ways, while if they just don’t let them do anything, then that’s just straight up taking away something from current players, which seems against the theme of the game.

I’m hoping the blog post was simply badly worded, with regards to:
1) If the core game masteries are included in the price of the core game.
2) If players of the core game will still have the ability to earn unlimited numbers of skill points (through some existing high-level content?), or if there is a plan to revamp the Mystic Forge to compensate?

Considering how the blog post claims that post-80 your mastery point total replaces your level, it seems that masteries are essentially the new raised “level cap.”

That is a very interesting point… The fact that you will no long get Skill Points for leveling after 80 will probably make some people not want to buy the expansion for a while.

I like the idea of Masteries… but presented as it was… I am not excited about it at this point. So far, given what we know about HoT… I’m still not sold. Im waiting until they unveil their New-New Trait system to make a final decision.

It strikes me that a simple way to solve the issue of skill points from leveling is to make “just give me more skill points, okay?” a reward track that’s available to everybody.

Considering how the blog post claims that post-80 your mastery point total replaces your level, it seems that masteries are essentially the new raised “level cap.”

In a sense they are, but in a sense they aren’t. They definitely aren’t a strict level cap, in that a “0 mastery” character is not any weaker in a general sense than a “10 mastery” character, while a level 80 is definitely stronger than a level 70 (in a level 80 zone, at least). Also, it seems like you can progress through the mastery tracks in a non-linear fashion, so while if they raised the cap to 90 then you would have to do 83 before 84 and all 84s would have the same stat boost, in this system it seems like you could progress your traversal masteries before really doing much with the combat or lore masteries, or vice versa, up to you, so while a fully maxed out character might have the same capabilities as any other, it stands to reason that most characters with 50% of the available masteries will have all sorts of different capabilities.

But it is similar to raising a level cap, in that there will be content and regions that will require a certain degree of mastery to access. It’s a progression, just a very different progression than just raising the cap.

I like the idea of Masteries… but presented as it was… I am not excited about it at this point. So far, given what we know about HoT… I’m still not sold. Im waiting until they unveil their New-New Trait system to make a final decision.

I honestly can’t imagine any current player not being “sold” on HoT yet. I mean, I have my concerns, things that seem like they could be a step back or that I’m worried they might need some changes, but there’s no question I’ll be buying it at the earliest opportunity.

Morsus.5106:

1. We don’t know that players who don’t buy the expansion will have their Skill points on level up taken away. You’re basing this all on speculation.
2. Well what would you do about the cliffhanger ending? Everyone who bought Harry Potter and the Goblet of Fire (or saw it in theaters) did not get a free copy of Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix, they had to buy the next part of the story. Those who went to see Captain America: First Avenger did not get a free ticket to see Marvel’s The Avengers. Just because there’s a cliffhanger ending doesn’t mean you are entitled to see the next part of the story for free.
3. The “new stuff” is reserved for those who paid for it. With the exception of Eve Online most MMOs require you to purchase the new content to play it. You are not entitled to get the new content that the developers have made just because you bought the base game.

1. That would be unfair for those that bought the expansion, since non-expansion players would have more SP sources, this is kind of a no-win scenario, it will be unfair either way.
2.Each of those examples were self-contained stories, with a resolution that are, though, part of a greater whole. We had no real ending on the second season. Season one ended with the death of the main antagonist for that part, and at least some resolution. On this one we ended with only questions. We didn’t stop any threat, we didn’t get the egg, we don’t know where Caithe is, we really don’t know what happened to Logan, Treherne, etc. There’s no ending there, only a cliffhanger. Which is why it bothers me. If the ending had been Season 1’s, then wouldn’t feel as bad, since Scarlet was dead, sure LA was in Ruins and we “heard the dragon” but that would simply be the link for the new story, the “Scarlet Arc” was done with. Here you’re just having a carrot dangled in front of you.
3. I could just about list a couple dozen MMOs where you don’t purchase new content. But will i bother? No.

Moldur.6275:

Don’t make a thread based upon your own failure in reading a dev blog post.
It clearly says that skillpoints will be removed from past-80 leveling, and instead gained from high level content. HoT owners will get Mastery progression from leveling, non-HoT owners will not. Skillpoints are available to gain for both in the same way. But not in the traditional way past-80. The Mastery points is an addition and a reassignment, not a game-wide replacement.
Hope that gives structure to your high pre-expansion entropy.

I did understand that part. Thing is non-expansion owners will probably lose a steady, reliable source of SP income. And gain what? Nada. And if they allow non-expac owners to have SP income, then they’ll have more SP sources than expac owners. Its a bad situation that wasn’t really needed. Not from a company that supposedly cares for their player base.

Genesis.8572:

Considering how the blog post claims that post-80 your mastery point total replaces your level, it seems that masteries are essentially the new raised “level cap.”

Its not really a raised level cap, in the sense that you don’t really have to reaquire gear and whatnot. You will get some stuff you would from a raised level cap, new skills and profession mechanics (via specializations) and more progress and objectives via the masteries. Its actually a very elegant solution to the stagnation in character progress many people have complained about in GW2 (i’ve had friends that played 2 months, got to 80 full exotics, and quit, because they were used to having stuff like gear grind and whatnot to fuel their gaming motivation).
Now lets hope that the new AI efforts, coupled with the masteries and the new opponent mechanics deals with the other problem. Game being too easy with everyone just facerolling Zerker gear in PVE.

I wouldn’t say non HoT owners would have “more sources of skill points” since HoT owners would trade getting them via experience to getting them some other method. It was stated there will be more ways to earn skill points in HoT, after all. Presumably, non-HoT players wouldn’t have access to those different methods, so skill point acquisition is a null trade.

SenorMoody.5908:

That is a very interesting point… The fact that you will no long get Skill Points for leveling after 80 will probably make some people not want to buy the expansion for a while.

Except that is not likely how it is going to work. After heart of thorns is released you will get nothing after level 80 if you don’t have the expansion. I don’t think the difference is going to be that big as a lot of people make it out to be.

Skill points will be added as rewards across high-level content to offset this change.

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

I wouldn’t say non HoT owners would have “more sources of skill points” since HoT owners would trade getting them via experience to getting them some other method. It was stated there will be more ways to earn skill points in HoT, after all. Presumably, non-HoT players wouldn’t have access to those different methods, so skill point acquisition is a null trade.

Well, end-level content isn’t limited to HoT, is it? So far we’re only speculating, and i’m focusing in the worse case scenario which is what i really wouldn’t want to see happen.
But Southsun, SW, Dry Top, Orr, Frostgorge, that would all remain within the end-level content, as would fractals, and explorer dungeons.
So yeah, assuming they wouldn’t simply take away all progression from non-expac users those guys would have more SP sources (the ones available for the expac and the lvl up SP).
If they would just take all progression from lvl 80 non-expac owners, it would probably outrage a ton of people, mostly those that can’t afford the expac right off, worse, it would be really against those ideals Arena Net always defends of sticking up for the player and rewarding the players, and whatnot.

At this point its really just speculation, of course, but i’m just venting my concerns, and hopefully Arena net didn’t put themselves in a no-win scenario with this.

Even then, they could really just create a easy solution for this.
Have a “Skill Mastery” progress track. This one would be the default one. Would be endless, each tier would reward 1 skill point and would be the only one available for Non-expac.