Guild Wars 2

Is it just me, or does Mastery seem like the traditional MMO rep grind, but by a different name?

Nothing wrong with that, but I get that vibe from the info given about Mastery system.

What’s your thoughts on this?

I don’t think so. For example, most rep in most games is stuff you’re repeating over and over again, a la dailies. You can gain rep by doing specific quests that repeat.

This is doing something once to unlock a single mastery point which you can then spend. Some of them will be rewarded retroactively for stuff you’ve already done. Also not sure how many games where your rep stuff increases your powers and abilities, as opposed to unlocking gear and stuff you can buy.

Sounds like a better version of the current WvW masteries which already exist.

I assume you are talking about the information we got from then ign-article today?

It seems like that was simply a single example of Mastery, more specifically Lore — Learning x Language.

Strange how people went to other MMOs first, we had reputations in Guild Wars 1 that had abilities and bonuses tied with them.

The higher the rank in the title you were, the stronger the abilities affected by that faction were.

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Ebon_Vanguard_rank

So in a way, it does sound very similar, just expanded.

The way I’ve heard it described is like Metroid/Zelda equipment unlocks, you get abilities that let you do things like access new places and abilities as you explore or do certain activites.

So it seems like it will manifest in many ways.

The GW1 reps came after reps in other games… and it was horribly, horribly grindy to get to the higher tiers.

The impression from the announcement, though, is that gaining mastery points is achievement-based. Complete a particular task once – kill a boss, reach a location, complete exploration on a map – and be rewarded with mastery points. Once you’ve done that thing once, you do not get additional mastery points from repeating the same thing again.

draxynnic.3719:

The GW1 reps came after reps in other games… and it was horribly, horribly grindy to get to the higher tiers.

The impression from the announcement, though, is that gaining mastery points is achievement-based. Complete a particular task once – kill a boss, reach a location, complete exploration on a map – and be rewarded with mastery points. Once you’ve done that thing once, you do not get additional mastery points from repeating the same thing again.

It’s true that it wasn’t first, but considering this is a sequel, I’d have thought more people would suggest the feature from the games predecessor.

And yeah, this is sounding a lot less grindy than the old rep tracks.

The part about needing certain Masteries in order to beat certain bosses or reach certain areas suggest to me that it will be apart of the main progression gate system in HoT similar to how Rep systems were back in the old MMO days as a gated feature.

Take just one look at the Giant Slayer deed and you can dispel the notion that Achievements can’t be GRINDY AS ALL KITTEN.

To me this sounds a lot like the current trait unlock system. The improvement is that it will be account wide. The dis-improvement is that it will now affect even more than just traits.

Nike.2631:

Take just one look at the Giant Slayer deed and you can dispel the notion that Achievements can’t be GRINDY AS ALL KITTEN.

I’m sure you can pull a number of grindy achievements out of your hat. But taking the grindiest PvP achievement out of your hat and trying to use it as an example? Probably not the best way to phrase an argument.

There are grindy achievements, but they’re the exception, not the rule.

Palador.2170:

To me this sounds a lot like the current trait unlock system. The improvement is that it will be account wide. The dis-improvement is that it will now affect even more than just traits.

What would be your method of choice for character progression in HoT? Personally, I prefer the “complete specific encounters/achievements/collections for progression” way to the generic “gain x amount of generic points for each action you do”, the later being the leveling/experience system we have for lvl 1-80, and in a slightly different variation for WvW and PvP ranks, too .

The way I read the announcement and interviews, several of the mastery point unlocks may in fact be similar to what we have for traits now: Do a specific event once to get a point. Find the chest at the end of some jp or exploartion achievement once for another. Fully map explore a part of the world (once ) for a third. To max out your character progression, you have to do all these things – once.

That’s the big difference to the current trait aquisition: You have to do all of that exactly once, not once for each character you want to play. Plus by the sound of it, you will no longer have specific tasks locked to one specific progression item (“kill the giant grub on eb to get the evasive arcana trait for your ele” … that one is still giving me nightmares ), but will gain points (one pool for all masteries or pooled into specific groups, I don’t know), allowing you to only choose a sub-set of the tasks if you don’t want every point (e.g. leaving out the “useless” traits when unlocking traits for your new character).

What they are trying to do is giving players character progression with HoT without falling back to the old, boring “get x points any way to advance an abstract counter (aka character level) that locks you out of content”. Will this appeal to every player? Probably not, just like leveling 1-80 does not appeal to every player. Will this feel grindy to some? Definitely, just like spending hours in EotM to bypass the “level grind” to 80 feels grindy for some now.

Will this appeal to me? Absolutely. I enjoy exploration and doing all kinds of different things to shake up the routine, but then I even enjoyed parts of the current trait system (although it absolutely does get repetative to unlock traits after the 3rd character through the system … but then, you only have to do it once for masteries ). I’m in no hurry to “finish” this game, and hope that masteries will give me lots of things to do and explore for a long while.

I’m still curious about your answer to the question I put up at the start of this post though: What kind of character progression would you prefer for HoT? Experience/levels that you can easily farm in EotM or similar if you don’t care for the new ways? Some totally different kind of progression I haven’t thought about? Or maybe no progression at all, to go into the new content already capped? The later sounds a bit boring to me … once you’ve explored the ways to the part of the maps you’re interested in, what will you do?

Vayne.8563:

Nike.2631:

Take just one look at the Giant Slayer deed and you can dispel the notion that Achievements can’t be GRINDY AS ALL KITTEN.

I’m sure you can pull a number of grindy achievements out of your hat. But taking the grindiest PvP achievement out of your hat and trying to use it as an example? Probably not the best way to phrase an argument.

There are grindy achievements, but they’re the exception, not the rule.

Where did Nike’s argument SAY that they were the rule? The point was simply that achievements CAN be grindy, and you admit that there are a number of them that are. It isn’t Nike’kitten, it’s ANet’kitten that produced Giant Slayer, Weapon Mastery for offhand weapons, etc. So basing mastery points on achievements is not a guarantee of “no grind,” which is the perfectly-valid point that Nike was making.

Edit: Holy Frijole! The filter is now kittening out a simple apostrophe-s possessive?? Ah! I see. Nike’kitten should be Nike’s headwear instead of “hat”.

Rasimir.6239:

Palador.2170:

To me this sounds a lot like the current trait unlock system. The improvement is that it will be account wide. The dis-improvement is that it will now affect even more than just traits.

What would be your method of choice for character progression in HoT? Personally, I prefer the “complete specific encounters/achievements/collections for progression” way to the generic “gain x amount of generic points for each action you do”, the later being the leveling/experience system we have for lvl 1-80, and in a slightly different variation for WvW and PvP ranks, too .

I’ve been trying to avoid thinking up ways to do this, because I didn’t know what was coming and I wanted to judge the end results based on its own merits, instead of being upset because they didn’t match some idea I’d thought up.

With that said, on the surface it’s a good plan. Do things, get related skills or abilities. The problem is that they’ve done it before, done it badly, and left it as a huge mess for far too long. It’s the idea that they’re going to expand the system, without showing that they’ve learned from their mistakes, that worries me.

As a side note, I’m a huge fan of the Metroid gameplay concept. Hearing them talk about using that for the Masteries in the new zone, however, worries me. To be more specific, it worries me that they’ll have to give us a nice case of Mega Man Syndrome for any later “progressive” zones or expansions.

((But I’ll forgive a lot of sins if my warrior can learn the Space Jump and Screw Attack.))

TexZero.7910:

Sounds like a better version of the current WvW masteries which already exist.

That is what i thought too.

DBZVelena.5186:

TexZero.7910:

Sounds like a better version of the current WvW masteries which already exist.

That is what i thought too.

The interviews also say that it’s a lot like the WvW system. Just “expanded” upon.

However, even that reminds me loosely of the rep grind in GW1. I don’t have an issue with it, but it’s the same general flavor to me.

I think it’s disingenuous to compare GW1 rep grind with WvW mastery. The GW1 titles were a very apparent grind. WvW mastery is achieved by participating in general WvW. If you’re claiming that WvW is grind then there is just a problem with your definition.

Gnat.9405:

I think it’s disingenuous to compare GW1 rep grind with WvW mastery. The GW1 titles were a very apparent grind. WvW mastery is achieved by participating in general WvW. If you’re claiming that WvW is grind then there is just a problem with your definition.

GW1 reps were only a grind after you got enough levels to be useful for story/mission purposes. The first few levels came pretty easily before the curve got steep, but top level was pretty much unnecessary for anything but bragging rights (titles, armor, or whatever). You didn’t need to be top tier Lightbringer to take down Abaddon, or top tier Norn/Asura/Vanguard to take down the Great Destroyer.

If mastery works the same way, I’m not sure I have a problem with it. If the stuff you really need comes easily but the higher levels for bragging rights become a long-term project, is that so bad?

BrettM.9062:

Gnat.9405:

I think it’s disingenuous to compare GW1 rep grind with WvW mastery. The GW1 titles were a very apparent grind. WvW mastery is achieved by participating in general WvW. If you’re claiming that WvW is grind then there is just a problem with your definition.

GW1 reps were only a grind after you got enough levels to be useful for story/mission purposes. The first few levels came pretty easily before the curve got steep, but top level was pretty much unnecessary for anything but bragging rights (titles, armor, or whatever). You didn’t need to be top tier Lightbringer to take down Abaddon, or top tier Norn/Asura/Vanguard to take down the Great Destroyer.

If mastery works the same way, I’m not sure I have a problem with it. If the stuff you really need comes easily but the higher levels for bragging rights become a long-term project, is that so bad?

Group looking for Rank 8 Ursan. Only rank 8 or older please.

You try playing an imbagon Paragon with a low level Luxon or Kurzick Paragon. It didn’t go so well. lol

Vayne.8563:

I’m sure you can pull a number of grindy achievements out of your hat. But taking the grindiest PvP achievement out of your hat and trying to use it as an example? Probably not the best way to phrase an argument.

There are grindy achievements, but they’re the exception, not the rule.

Giant slayer isn’t a PvP achievement, what you on about?

Lazaar.9123:

Vayne.8563:

I’m sure you can pull a number of grindy achievements out of your hat. But taking the grindiest PvP achievement out of your hat and trying to use it as an example? Probably not the best way to phrase an argument.

There are grindy achievements, but they’re the exception, not the rule.

Giant slayer isn’t a PvP achievement, what you on about?

Typo. Change the PvP to PvE and you get the meaning. I’m pretty sure most people figured that out.

Vayne.8563:

Group looking for Rank 8 Ursan. Only rank 8 or older please.

You try playing an imbagon Paragon with a low level Luxon or Kurzick Paragon. It didn’t go so well. lol

Players will find some way to abuse any system that ANet can dream up. Thousands of clever minds in the playerbase start looking for the loopholes .05 seconds after a new system comes along. In the end, Ursan got hit with the nerf hammer. We can only guess at what would have happened to imbagon if paras had ever gotten the long-awaited big balance update, but I don’t think it was ever the problem that Ursan was.

After reading this: http://www.tentonhammer.com/news/guild-wars-2/arenanet-invites-players-%E2%80%98first-look%E2%80%99-guild-wars-2-heart-thorns it feels to me like masteries are more of a “map progression” system than character progression. Peeling the bark off a mordrem is really specific. Jumping on certain mushrooms. Gliding. It seems to me that we will get very specific masteries in each region or map and that we will need to finish them to progress to the next area of said region. With the old maps, I could see them filling out content in this way as well.