Guild Wars 2

Coulter.2315:

At no point did GW2 get marketed as a game for those who “don’t want to try at all”, I can’t support your desire to reduce the complexity of content because you try hard at work. I see you will defend your interests but it cannot be healthy to ask a game to not progress in complexity and required knowledge for 3 years. Asking for a faceroll expansion will kill it.

I hope you can play with friends and it isn’t too stressful but it must not cater to the “don’t want to try at all” crowd – it will kill the game.

It was advertised as an all inclusive, casual friendly game. And let’s be honest right now its open world and living story contents are areas of the game were you don’t have to try at all.

The complexity is already there, as is the option to not use it and still enjoy the game. I still only know that you blast fire fields for might, water fields for regen and you leap through smoke for invisibility and that’s all the complexity I ever needed from the game.

If casual friendliness isn’t healthy for the game, the game wouldn’t be casual friendly. Moving away from that though might hurt it. As for the folk who want challenging, they’re already giving you that, there no need to have it all over the place. It would be the equivalent of the pvp crowd wanting world pvp in a game that had none before.

Mobs that kill you once only through cheap trial and error aren’t challenging or engaging.

PorceleinEve.2973:

It was advertised as an all inclusive, casual friendly game. And let’s be honest right now its open world and living story contents are areas of the game were you don’t have to try at all.

The complexity is already there, as is the option to not use it and still enjoy the game. I still only know that you blast fire fields for might, water fields for regen and you leap through smoke for invisibility and that’s all the complexity I ever needed from the game.

If casual friendliness isn’t healthy for the game, the game wouldn’t be casual friendly. Moving away from that though might hurt it. As for the folk who want challenging, they’re already giving you that, there no need to have it all over the place. It would be the equivalent of the pvp crowd wanting world pvp in a game that had none before.

It seems a common misrepresentation that casual players equal players that don’t actually want challenge. being time limited does not mean someone has no desire to have at least some sort of challenge in their game play. it’s also fallacy to equate difficult content to being stressful for casual players. these things may apply to you personally but you in no way speak for everyone.

Personally I loved the new map, It took me by surprise when an archer killed me very quickly the first time I faced one, simply because I charged in with the same expectations as the rest of the game, that I’d steamroll through the whole map pressing 1 and face no challenge at all. having said that, after a few hours of play and with the glider and mushrooms available I found it easy to get around avoiding combat I didn’t want to face in order to get to events, having to learn the layout of the map and the behavior of mobs isn’t a bad thing and people will adapt.

I had no problem with it on ele, I just had to make sure I paid attention to what I was doing. I have played ele for 3 years though .. It was a bit more difficult on revenant, partly because I didn’t play with the build much until later. Make sure your build is set up properly after creating a beta character ..

I hope it isn’t nerfed or dumbed down, a challenge is good..

Maybe for living story or even dungeons there should be a easy / medium / hard mode selection to satisfy all types of gamers.

I thought the beta was great, enjoyed the map and the living story, and loved gliding. Difficulty seemed spot on.

IndigoSundown.5419:

Beldin.5498:

IndigoSundown.5419:

An interesting experiment. Say ANet leaves the difficulty substantially as is. Will those claiming they want such difficulty still want it six months after launch? In other words, will the harder mobs provide longevity in and of themselves, meaning (some) players will repeat the fights over and over and over just because it’s fun? Or, will there have to be reward incentives that keep the content vital until such time as it’s been farmed out? So far, the latter is the state of the game, but the former represents ANet’s vision.

We already had that experiment .. it was calles Southsun Cove .. and its filled by
masses of player every single minute of the day .. lol

It’s not that simple. SSC was a hastily-thrown-together map with few events and mobs that were a reaction to comments about the lack of threat posed by the Risen. Its reward systems were pretty well non-existent except for temp LS S1 events, mob drops, and Karka Queen. LS S1 and Queen were added later. HoT is going to be the result of everything ANet has learned in the three years since launch. They will use reward systems to keep HoT zones hot (pun intended) that never made their way into SSC.

Your question was :
“will the harder mobs provide longevity in and of themselves, meaning (some) players will repeat the fights over and over and over just because it’s fun”

And exactly that was made in SSC .. harder mobs for people that have fun just
to fight harder mobs over and over.
And the result was : no .. thats not enough. In the first weeks we were farming
Karkas with groups of people, that was OK .. but trying to explore that area alone
or farming alone was just simply annoying.

Beldin.5498:

Your question was :
“will the harder mobs provide longevity in and of themselves, meaning (some) players will repeat the fights over and over and over just because it’s fun”

And exactly that was made in SSC .. harder mobs for people that have fun just
to fight harder mobs over and over.
And the result was : no .. thats not enough. In the first weeks we were farming
Karkas with groups of people, that was OK .. but trying to explore that area alone
or farming alone was just simply annoying.

The problem with Karkas is that they aren’t interesting to fight. You fight them basically the same as any other mob, but their armor and evasion makes it take a long time to take them down.

The mobs in the HoT beta (and also the Silverwastes) are interesting to fight. They’re very strong, but you can learn how to counter them. And when you do properly counter them they tend to drop fairly quickly. That kind of challenge definitely holds up over time.

xadine.7069:

…
Also, a large part of players are complaining about how easy and casual this game is,….

No, a tiny fraction of the tiny amount of players that come to this forum were complaining. The vast majority was having fun with the game as it is.

comps.2309:

It seems a common misrepresentation that casual players equal players that don’t actually want challenge. being time limited does not mean someone has no desire to have at least some sort of challenge in their game play. it’s also fallacy to equate difficult content to being stressful for casual players. these things may apply to you personally but you in no way speak for everyone.

Personally I loved the new map, It took me by surprise when an archer killed me very quickly the first time I faced one, simply because I charged in with the same expectations as the rest of the game, that I’d steamroll through the whole map pressing 1 and face no challenge at all. out of the map and the behavior of mobhaving said that, after a few hours of play and with the glider and mushrooms available I found it easy to get around avoiding combat I didn’t want to face in order to get to events, having to learn the lays isn’t a bad thing and people will adapt.

Nope, that’s a false claim, nobody said casuals don’t want challenge. What we said was that we don’t want only challenge. Some challenge here and there is a nice break, fighting for dear life constantly and without reprieve is not. That’s what we’ve been saying. At least me. Difficult content isn’t necessarily stressful, that’s very correct. It’s content that kills you instantly when you don’t have a chance to respond that’s stressful, and that was what was claimed here. That a mob spawned behind them and because they weren’t in full focus mode, they were killed before they realized what was going on. I never speak for anyone else than myself. As is everyone. Even when the term “we” is used, it’s just a figure of speech, and not a statement of truth. I would expect everyone understands that already.

As for the difficulty as i said again elsewhere, it’s not only the mobs themselves but the density and the respawn timers. Individual mob difficulty (and i do mean difficulty in the sense that the mob responds to you and has abilities of its own and not just triple the hp and a 300% boost in damage) is not an issue as long as you can have the space to fight it, and not be in any danger from additional mobs. I don’t understand why folks only hang on one part of a potential solution and not a more holistic approach.

Also it would appear that mushrooms and gliders are obligatory first mastery unlocks, which is rather meh but what can you do…

Torolan.5816:

…I think Anet knew what they were trying with this approach, it´s really not their fault people did not like it..

No, it is ENTIRELY ANets fault. It is their job to figure out what the majority of this game wants to generate enough sales to keep the company running.

Kashrlyyk.5364:

xadine.7069:

…
Also, a large part of players are complaining about how easy and casual this game is,….

No, a tiny fraction of the tiny amount of players that come to this forum were complaining. The vast majority was having fun with the game as it is.

This. I honestly found a lot of the older content plenty challenging enough.

In the game right now I annihilate every mob the same way and don’t care what it is, it makes no difference whether it is branded, icebrood, undead, or karka (only the vet+ don’t die instantly). They just are exterminated and I don’t even notice their mechanics.

We want an engaging game which plays back against you, we want mobs that aren’t just different skinned targets. These mobs feel different to fight and I would be very depressed if the nay-sayers in this thread scare anet away from the idea they are taking forward.

The people wanting the mobs weakened say that they “don’t want to try at all” (this is a direct quote look on page 9 if you don’t believe me), we cannot allow this mindset to dictate the game’s development.

Ok, so then we make a little mind jump here and look at how predictions about possible market values and stuff may work out:

*What is the most successful film of the Star Wars franchise?`After inflation, of course. The for any SW fan iconic return of the Jedi you say, ranking 13th in the AFI list of best movies ever? Sadly not. It´s Phantom Menace, not even appearing on that list, where a bubbling idiot creature it taking screen time from the story for childrens amusement and most people only want to watch the last 30 minutes or so of the movie.
*Which single sold better? Nelly featuring the better background singer Kelly Rowland with “Dilemma” nobody remembers or Queens legendary “Bohemian Rapsody” everybody knows? You guess it…
*Every male hates Titanic, a puny love story build after a sadly real desaster? Probably not. Up until 2009 with the rise of Avatar, it was the only film to gross over 2 Billion dollar in the cinemas without factoring inflation in, if not then it has broken the 3 billion barrier. The number 3 on that list, Jurassic World, is not even close to 2 billion.
*A simple housewife can´t write a six books spawning, record breaking series about a young, geeky boy going to a secret school, rising to face a series of obstacles before battling the murderer of his parents? She can. It´s called Harry Potter…

Tl:dr Market prediction is not a mathematical formula built on proofs, it´s a fickle prediction that can lash at you from a totally unexpected direction sometimes.

PorceleinEve.2973:

Also it would appear that mushrooms and gliders are obligatory first mastery unlocks, which is rather meh but what can you do…

well your other options are exalted lore or nuchoch lore, both of which are of questionable use at the start of the map, but then you’d know that wouldn’t you, having at least played most of the map in order to provide informed feedback.

Beldin.5498:

IndigoSundown.5419:

Beldin.5498:

IndigoSundown.5419:

An interesting experiment. Say ANet leaves the difficulty substantially as is. Will those claiming they want such difficulty still want it six months after launch? In other words, will the harder mobs provide longevity in and of themselves, meaning (some) players will repeat the fights over and over and over just because it’s fun? Or, will there have to be reward incentives that keep the content vital until such time as it’s been farmed out? So far, the latter is the state of the game, but the former represents ANet’s vision.

We already had that experiment .. it was calles Southsun Cove .. and its filled by
masses of player every single minute of the day .. lol

It’s not that simple. SSC was a hastily-thrown-together map with few events and mobs that were a reaction to comments about the lack of threat posed by the Risen. Its reward systems were pretty well non-existent except for temp LS S1 events, mob drops, and Karka Queen. LS S1 and Queen were added later. HoT is going to be the result of everything ANet has learned in the three years since launch. They will use reward systems to keep HoT zones hot (pun intended) that never made their way into SSC.

Your question was :
“will the harder mobs provide longevity in and of themselves, meaning (some) players will repeat the fights over and over and over just because it’s fun”

And exactly that was made in SSC .. harder mobs for people that have fun just
to fight harder mobs over and over.
And the result was : no .. thats not enough. In the first weeks we were farming
Karkas with groups of people, that was OK .. but trying to explore that area alone
or farming alone was just simply annoying.

Fair enough, although Rinnk makes an interesting point. I’ll clarify, though. SSC lacks incentives to even go there. I’m expecting HoT to offer incentives to go there beyond just the challenge. So, part of the "experiment’ would be to see if more-challenge-from-mobs will get old for those who will go there over and over for other reasons. What I’m expecting is that the perceived difficulty will lower over time as repetition puts counter tactics into muscle memory. At that point, the HoT mobs will be called “too easy” and there will be annoyance posts about density hindering players from getting where they want to go because rewards.

I’d be happy to be wrong, but don’t think I will be.

IndigoSundown.5419:

Beldin.5498:

IndigoSundown.5419:

Beldin.5498:

IndigoSundown.5419:

An interesting experiment. Say ANet leaves the difficulty substantially as is. Will those claiming they want such difficulty still want it six months after launch? In other words, will the harder mobs provide longevity in and of themselves, meaning (some) players will repeat the fights over and over and over just because it’s fun? Or, will there have to be reward incentives that keep the content vital until such time as it’s been farmed out? So far, the latter is the state of the game, but the former represents ANet’s vision.

We already had that experiment .. it was calles Southsun Cove .. and its filled by
masses of player every single minute of the day .. lol

It’s not that simple. SSC was a hastily-thrown-together map with few events and mobs that were a reaction to comments about the lack of threat posed by the Risen. Its reward systems were pretty well non-existent except for temp LS S1 events, mob drops, and Karka Queen. LS S1 and Queen were added later. HoT is going to be the result of everything ANet has learned in the three years since launch. They will use reward systems to keep HoT zones hot (pun intended) that never made their way into SSC.

Your question was :
“will the harder mobs provide longevity in and of themselves, meaning (some) players will repeat the fights over and over and over just because it’s fun”

And exactly that was made in SSC .. harder mobs for people that have fun just
to fight harder mobs over and over.
And the result was : no .. thats not enough. In the first weeks we were farming
Karkas with groups of people, that was OK .. but trying to explore that area alone
or farming alone was just simply annoying.

Fair enough, although Rinnk makes an interesting point. I’ll clarify, though. SSC lacks incentives to even go there. I’m expecting HoT to offer incentives to go there beyond just the challenge. So, part of the "experiment’ would be to see if more-challenge-from-mobs will get old for those who will go there over and over for other reasons. What I’m expecting is that the perceived difficulty will lower over time as repetition puts counter tactics into muscle memory. At that point, the HoT mobs will be called “too easy” and there will be annoyance posts about density hindering players from getting where they want to go because rewards.

I’d be happy to be wrong, but don’t think I will be.

Don’t let people sell you on the SSC idea, the reason no one goes there is because there is very little to do. HoT will combine better mobs with lots of events and other stuff to do.

Anyone saying “hard mobs are bad because SSC” is being deliberately misleading because they know SSC has a lack of content and that is why it is empty, it has nothing to do with the mob difficulty.

Coulter.2315:

Don’t let people sell you on the SSC idea, the reason no one goes there is because there is very little to do. HoT will combine better mobs with lots of events and other stuff to do.

Anyone saying “hard mobs are bad because SSC” is being deliberately misleading because they know SSC has a lack of content and that is why it is empty, it has nothing to do with the mob difficulty.

If karka veterans dropped precursors with a 1% chance it would be pretty much the only played map in the game, indeed, rewards have everything to do with it. so perhaps that’s a valid question for the new map, would peoples perceptions of it’s difficulty be different if the rewards are substantially better than the rest of the game? and would they then want the difficulty lowered but on the condition that the rewards are lowered too.

Coulter.2315:

In the game right now I annihilate every mob the same way and don’t care what it is, it makes no difference whether it is branded, icebrood, undead, or karka (only the vet+ don’t die instantly). They just are exterminated and I don’t even notice their mechanics.

We want an engaging game which plays back against you, we want mobs that aren’t just different skinned targets. These mobs feel different to fight and I would be very depressed if the nay-sayers in this thread scare anet away from the idea they are taking forward.

The people wanting the mobs weakened say that they “don’t want to try at all” (this is a direct quote look on page 9 if you don’t believe me), we cannot allow this mindset to dictate the game’s development.

or you can un equip the legendary, remove the ascended gear, equip yourself with nice white or blues and enjoy the difficulty.

You can’t ask for gear progression and then go around and claim that everything dies easily just by pressing the auto attack. Wasn’t everyone happy that they didn’t increase the lvl cap so as their gear stays relevant? Don’t come around afterwards wanting gear to become irrelevant again.

We cannot allow this mindset to dictate the game’s developement. You want challenge? Remove the op gear, play with blues.

CrimsonDX.4821:

Kashrlyyk.5364:

xadine.7069:

…
Also, a large part of players are complaining about how easy and casual this game is,….

No, a tiny fraction of the tiny amount of players that come to this forum were complaining. The vast majority was having fun with the game as it is.

This. I honestly found a lot of the older content plenty challenging enough.

What’s challenging exactly? at least in PvE ( for obvious reason PvP is challenging and WvW… depend on what you’re against). I seriously don’t think a game should be 100% hard core, on that point I think everyone agree. BUT this game has no real challenge, FotM are easy with a bit of practice, dungeons… well except maybe 1 or 2 path all dungeons together require no skill and map events… come on it has become hard to fail. Even TT wurm, with TS and a bit of organisation you can’t fail (the guild PSDH organize 4 TT wurm / week with almost 100% succes). In each case I don’t talk about meta zerk party! I personnaly play almost exclusively necro wich isn’t meta at all.
I can understand that for some players, some events/dungeon/FotM can seem to be challenging, because not all players have the same “skill” (don’t like that word). But if you’re use to play in other MMO you seriously find GW2 way to easy.
I’m not saying this is bad, just that’s one of the main reason why GW2 have lost so many players the past 2 years. Ironiquely most of them went to Wild Star for the challenge and most of them leave wild star because it is too challenging ^^.

But it not just “tiny fraction of a tiny amount” of players that want challenging content. Colin, and others devs, have said during lives that they are aware that a huge part of players want challenge and are not happy with the current zerk meta and that HoT will supposely fix those issues.

And tbh when the beta start I think everyone got wiped several times before starting to understand new mobs. But after a couple of hours (lets say starting sunday) I haven’t see anyone having trouble to fight them. Sure you have to change a bit your build, but people forget they were using “new” profession against new mobs in a max lvl map, map wich is suppose to be under control of a dragon. So basically we weren’t at grandma’s drinking tea. Most players had start making party (weird in an MMO right?) and by 2 or 3 it is so much easy to move, also as soon as you unlock glider and shroom everything become so easy.
And most of the time I saw dead players it was on an events, so it’s not illogical, especially since almost every mobs pack have healers and people doesn’t seem to understand that you need to focus them to make the fight so much easier. (no need for this kind of strat in gw2 vanilla)

Personnaly I think Anet should do something like in GW1, you chose to go Hard Mode or Normal Mode. And since gw2 is a MMO, well lets have 1 HC map and 1 NM map in the same time. I seriously don’t know if it is possible though… but it would fix our problem ^^.

PS: I just saw the “change your stuff to white” kitty argument. Shall I remember you that you can find videos about group that do FotM lvl80 (before rework) naked and it was way harder back then than it is now. And now you only need your armor for the last boss because you can’t avoid its agony but still doable. I also have successfully kill TTwurm in a naked run with my guild. This is not a matter of stats but mobs mecanics.

comps.2309:

PorceleinEve.2973:

Also it would appear that mushrooms and gliders are obligatory first mastery unlocks, which is rather meh but what can you do…

well your other options are exalted lore or nuchoch lore, both of which are of questionable use at the start of the map, but then you’d know that wouldn’t you, having at least played most of the map in order to provide informed feedback.

I find lore much more interesting than gliding and mushrooms tbh, if only those 2 masteries provided some huh? so much for the play as you want chose and pick and all that. More like play as you want but you better start with mushrooms and gliding cause the rest are insignificant. The new progression system…

PorceleinEve.2973:

Coulter.2315:

In the game right now I annihilate every mob the same way and don’t care what it is, it makes no difference whether it is branded, icebrood, undead, or karka (only the vet+ don’t die instantly). They just are exterminated and I don’t even notice their mechanics.

We want an engaging game which plays back against you, we want mobs that aren’t just different skinned targets. These mobs feel different to fight and I would be very depressed if the nay-sayers in this thread scare anet away from the idea they are taking forward.

The people wanting the mobs weakened say that they “don’t want to try at all” (this is a direct quote look on page 9 if you don’t believe me), we cannot allow this mindset to dictate the game’s development.

or you can un equip the legendary, remove the ascended gear, equip yourself with nice white or blues and enjoy the difficulty.

You can’t ask for gear progression and then go around and claim that everything dies easily just by pressing the auto attack. Wasn’t everyone happy that they didn’t increase the lvl cap so as their gear stays relevant? Don’t come around afterwards wanting gear to become irrelevant again.

We cannot allow this mindset to dictate the game’s developement. You want challenge? Remove the op gear, play with blues.

Is this seriously your counter argument? “Use blues.”

I hope everyone can read this and realise what kind of people are calling for mobs to be weakened. I never once mentioned gear progression in any of my posts either, I am appropriately geared for 80 and am happy that I will continue to be appropriately geared after HoT releases.

You have lost the debate if this is your attempt at an argument.

Coulter.2315:

Is this seriously your counter argument? “Use blues.”

I hope everyone can read this and realise what kind of people are calling for mobs to be weakened. I never once mentioned gear progression in any of my posts either, I am appropriately geared for 80 and am happy that I will continue to be appropriately geared after HoT releases.

You have lost the debate if this is your attempt at an argument.

Yes it is. You go in with nuclear weapons and expect it to be tuned to your gear. What about the people who don’t have ascended and legendaries? What about a new player with green gear or yellow. They don’t count? How can you seriously expect the company to tune a zone with a fully geared player in mind. So yes, if you want to feel the challenge, downgrade your gear. I mean you do it for the challenge right? isn’t what all this has been about? the challenge? You have a means to up the challenge and experience what a new player experiences, while he doesn’t. Unless of course the company hands high lvl gear to everyone right before they go in.

What exactly do you think HoT is? the new raiding zones that have a gear check for people to check in? honestly I don’t understand you guys. At all. You went and got gear that made the game easy for you (which was the point of the gear after all, otherwise it wouldn’t provide stat upgrades) and now that you got it you don’t like how it’s gotten so easy that you have to spam 1 an everything is dead. Well, you got the skin, put on a blue item, use the skin and enjoy both the looks and the challenge. Don’t demand that everyone goes out to get geared up just to go in a zone in open world.

I’m calling for HoT to remain consistent with the rest of the game’s experience. That means that the content should be fairly easy if you’re full on ascended and with legendary weapons. It is illogical to demand to be “appropriately geared” just to enter a lvl 80 open world zone. It should be as easy or as hard as the other zones are. Consistency is a nice thing.

There’s no argument to be had. We’re just expressing our opinions here for the company to see and evaluate. It’s not a competition. And yes I do hope everyone sees this, especially the company, and decide that I do have a point and I do hope that you get your raids that are hard and challenging and your open world bosses that demand pug co ordination and tactics. That way we’ll both be happy.

PorceleinEve.2973:

You go in with nuclear weapons and expect it to be tuned to your gear.

I expect it to be tuned for Exotics, yes… The beta equipped us with exotics… That is what it is supposed to be tuned for… I only got to use exotics in the beta… As did you.

What on earth are you trying to argue?!!

Coulter.2315:

PorceleinEve.2973:

You go in with nuclear weapons and expect it to be tuned to your gear.

I expect it to be tuned for Exotics, yes… The beta equipped us with exotics… That is what it is supposed to be tuned for… I only got to use exotics in the beta… As did you.

What on earth are you trying to argue?!!

That if they don’t supply all players with exotic gear, they should tune it with whatever gear a fresh lvl 80 will go in. That should be the base. Makes sense yes?

PorceleinEve.2973:

That if they don’t supply all players with exotic gear, they should tune it with whatever gear a fresh lvl 80 will go in. That should be the base. Makes sense yes?

the more you say the more it becomes clear that you don’t know much about this game at all.

comps.2309:

the more you say the more it becomes clear that you don’t know much about this game at all.

I don’t remember claiming anywhere that I do, in fact i remember saying how much of a noob I am, and how big of a casual I am. So you’d be correct in your assessment. I also remember saying that I don’t want to try at all. So not being an expert on the game -like you I take it- is a given. And still I get the same forum access as you do, and the game costs as much for me as it does for you. And hopefully my opinion is also worth to the company as much as your expert opinion.

PorceleinEve.2973:

Coulter.2315:

Is this seriously your counter argument? “Use blues.”

I hope everyone can read this and realise what kind of people are calling for mobs to be weakened. I never once mentioned gear progression in any of my posts either, I am appropriately geared for 80 and am happy that I will continue to be appropriately geared after HoT releases.

You have lost the debate if this is your attempt at an argument.

Yes it is. You go in with nuclear weapons and expect it to be tuned to your gear. What about the people who don’t have ascended and legendaries? What about a new player with green gear or yellow. They don’t count? How can you seriously expect the company to tune a zone with a fully geared player in mind. So yes, if you want to feel the challenge, downgrade your gear. I mean you do it for the challenge right? isn’t what all this has been about? the challenge? You have a means to up the challenge and experience what a new player experiences, while he doesn’t. Unless of course the company hands high lvl gear to everyone right before they go in.

What exactly do you think HoT is? the new raiding zones that have a gear check for people to check in? honestly I don’t understand you guys. At all. You went and got gear that made the game easy for you (which was the point of the gear after all, otherwise it wouldn’t provide stat upgrades) and now that you got it you don’t like how it’s gotten so easy that you have to spam 1 an everything is dead. Well, you got the skin, put on a blue item, use the skin and enjoy both the looks and the challenge. Don’t demand that everyone goes out to get geared up just to go in a zone in open world.

I’m calling for HoT to remain consistent with the rest of the game’s experience. That means that the content should be fairly easy if you’re full on ascended and with legendary weapons. It is illogical to demand to be “appropriately geared” just to enter a lvl 80 open world zone. It should be as easy or as hard as the other zones are. Consistency is a nice thing.

There’s no argument to be had. We’re just expressing our opinions here for the company to see and evaluate. It’s not a competition. And yes I do hope everyone sees this, especially the company, and decide that I do have a point and I do hope that you get your raids that are hard and challenging and your open world bosses that demand pug co ordination and tactics. That way we’ll both be happy.

You’re missing a point about (at least some of the) players who like challenge. For some, it’s also about knowing that the passive aspects of the character are at their best, and that they had to play reasonably well on top of that. Artificial difficulty (e.g., I’ll fight with one hand tied behind my back) is not very satisfying.

The issues around whose desires to cater to are complex, and will not be resolved in a forum thread. It might seem that it is in ANet’s best interest to cater to as many demographics as possible. However, when two groups want diametrically opposed options, the only way to cater to both is to split them up. Most MMO’s do this. ANet seems almost as afraid of “splitting the player-base” as they of some players posting, “But you promised!” complaints.

Absent any changes to Anet policy, I believe you will have to choose between adjusting to whatever level of difficulty HoT debuts with or not playing HoT. I do not believe that ANet can step back from the idea of offering somewhat greater challenge at this point.

@PorceleinEve
Actualy no, it doesn’t make sense considering how easy and fast it is to get at least a gold armor. And getting an exotic armor isn’t hard at all since you don’t even need to craft or do a donjon you can simply buy it with karma with no need to do anything since finding an open temple just require to wp on the map or open the lfg tool to find an open map. Therefore you can’t use the “weak armor” as an excuse to explain why you can’t handle mobs that are tuned to face exotic armor.

Also, you’re supposed to have finished your personnal story by the time you reach HoT map since they take place after LS2 wich allready take place after LS1 and your personnal story. So you’re supposed to have visited Orr allready and therefore had a chance to get karma armor for temple. BUT of course if you wish to take a lvl10 in HoT why not but don’t blame the game.

So NO using the white/blue/green/gold armor as an excuse make no sense at all. And GW2 vanilla lack of challenge isn’t a matter of stuff but mobs mecanics wich is supposely fix with those new mobs.

TLDR: I think the mobs are ok; most have mechanics that once learned make them doable, plus gliding and bouncing masteries help with surviving a lot.

Details:

I am not the most skilled player, but I didn’t have trouble with any of the mobs except the mushrooms and mounted cavaliers. (and the LS chapter was really not bad at all) If you hit snipers with reflect, they kill themselves quite nicely. Stoneheads have a fun mechanic, as do pocket raptors. I found a mesmer did pretty well against all of those. My ele did fine against the raptors and stone head as well; had a little more trouble with the sniper. The other mordrem—punishers and tormenters, both were ok. Of course anyone could get overwhelmed by a big group of enemies, but that’s kind of expected sometimes at least, and I think really skilled players probably can deal with that too, usually.

I assume for the shrooms and cavaliers that I just need to learn the mechanics on those better— advice would be welcome.

Also, once you have bouncing shroom and glider masteries, and get to know the map, you can skip lots of the mobby areas. I finished the second level of gliding during the first beta, and it really helped in skipping mobs and catching up with groups that were working on event chains.

PorceleinEve.2973:

I don’t remember claiming anywhere that I do, in fact i remember saying how much of a noob I am, and how big of a casual I am. And hopefully my opinion is also worth to the company as much as your expert opinion.

I really hope they do take the opinions of regular and experienced players over self confessed noobs.

Eg. I ask an auctioneer and a person who once walked past an art gallery the value of a painting, I take the autioneer’s opinion over the random human because he has more experience in that field.

Seems crazy to consider them equally. We have given solid reasons why the game needs to grow and progress and your only reply has been “nerf everything and experienced people can use blues.”

I really hope they listen to the right people.

I’ll throw my vote into the mix for ArenaNet not to decrease the mob difficulty in Heart of Thorns. Perhaps mob density in the zones, but as mentioned above, some of the issues encountered with this concern will be alleviated by the various masteries.

The mushroom mobs were some of the only persistent issues I had throughout the beta weekend in terms of difficulty, because they bum rush you in large packs that get larger with the spitters — and many times, drag Mordrem Guard mobs along with them — but even that got a little easier as I got used to what each mushroom type throws at you. It just meant I had to adapt, be situationally aware of what was happening around me, and plan accordingly.

I didn’t play as much as I would’ve liked but I was okay with the overall mobs, EXCEPT the sniper/arrow ones in the story chapter. There were usually 2 (I was on Tempest, I think I was even on cele gear?) typically sniping at me with a skill similar to Ranger’s RF constantly. Even on Cele gear I was dying super fast (to dodge all hits from RF you have to double dodge, so when they chain their RF? uh, yeah). It appears the AI is pretty smart and specifically focus target on PLAYERS as opposed to any npc, but when you have ranged enemies that hit hard, two of them focusing you at the same time, and uses skills like RF, meanwhile you’re also kiting 3 or 4 other melee range enemies with aoe attacks… maybe it’s not as bad if I went in with a team of 5, but since this was a story instance.

I think it might be worth just toning down a LITTLE bit on the ranged hard hitters that are basically like multiple rangers going at you in pvp (not fun). I was okay with the mordrem vines that spit poison – those are slower and you can see aoe circles so you can dodge or navigate as necessary – thus counterable as long as you’re paying attention. Everything else was basically fine as well. just…those stupid ranger-like mordrem things… x___x

altho as a side note, it’s possible the problems I had (and the original poster) was due to playing a build/class/weapons skills that we are not used to. I prob should’ve tried again with dd ele (my usual main) and see if it was dramatically easier. I’d actually prefer making the mobs a bit harder going into HoT at launch, and see what people think with their main/classes that they know how to play well before start nerfing the mobs.

IndigoSundown.5419:

You’re missing a point about … snip … I do not believe that ANet can step back from the idea of offering somewhat greater challenge at this point.

I understand that, I just think the open world isn’t the place to do it?

In all honesty I don’t believe that I’m gonna be challenged in HoT but rather that you guys will be disappointed. But if the content is challenging, I’ll do what I always do, I’ll do the story and then ask myself if this is going to be fun for me in 6 months time. If the answer is no, I’ll leave the game, till they adjust the difficulty, if the answer is yes, I’ll stick around. We’re just discussing. Sometimes I do feel that some folk take things in here a bit too personally (not directed at you)

xadine.7069:

@PorceleinEve
Actualy no, it doesn’t make sense … snip …

Can’t argue with that. Not sure how many will go do orr and ls2 before hopping into HoT of course, but the choice is there and it has been the natural progression of the game. We’ll see I guess?

Coulter.2315:

I really hope they do take the opinions of regular and experienced players over self confessed noobs.

I really hope they listen to the right people.

I’m a regular player, I play 6 days a week, do I qualify? How does one measure an experienced player? Do you take a test to become certified? Or you just have to say so in the forums?

Fact is, we all pay equal amounts of money for this product, we all get our say. The company will do what’s best for its bottom line. You, or I, I don’t think we matter that much in the long run. If I did, this would be a different game all together.. we would have a seamless world, mounts, the ability to sit on chairs, an expansive emote system, actuall day and night cycles (were you could tell the difference cause the nights would be dark), underwater combat and so so much more. Just gonna let this thing here in case they decide to make guild wars 3 and want to try something revolutionary like making an actuall mmo, instead of the hamster boxes we get … just sayin’

Would be awesome if we could get a dev in here to tell us what they have decided, based on feedback from here.
I would like to know if they consider the difficulity right now to be what they will stick to, or make it easier, which I don’t want to see happening btw.
What kind of player are they trying to cater to here. The people than don’t complain about the current core game difficulity, or those that want it to be just more engaging and challenge our skills, and as Colin said in the PoI “Make us use our full skillbar” in combat and not just auto attack most of the time and only use our utility slots for mobility to get around because we don’t have to use the skills for actual combat.

You can’t just waltz into VB with a glass cannon build, mash 1, and expect to have an easy time. But let’s be honest here, these mobs aren’t that tough. You’ve had levels 1 – 80 to breeze through the game, it’s time to put all those skills to (some) use. Also consider that these events will be massively zerged during release and the difficulty drops down even lower.

Jephiroth.3197:

…No more mindless 133314233214142132141232147483948172849912…

When i see action bar abilities bound to 6 7 8 or 9 on the keyboard on a screenshot i get the “mobs are hard to fight?… there you have it” feeling. Do any of the people who think mobs are hard actually bound abilities to for example QERFYXC or to something close to WASD? Since you probably use that for movement. No? There you have it.

I saw a post of a player who was playing revenant and thought the healing tablet should move automatically with the player because his/her fingers are a column always off to keep moving it (deafult healing is key 5). He/She takes the trophy.

(note: if you use only 0,1,2,3,Q,E,R,F,GY,X,C,V and these with ctrl/shift combination you can have 39 comfortably reachable hotkey(combos) in close proximity to wasd not counting w/a/s/d+shift/ctrl or any key with alt).

PorceleinEve.2973:

Druj Rosenkloitz.3729:

What I want to see is the later maps on HoT being actually difficult, say you have the night cycle on the last explorable map of HoT and you have to stay put until sunrise because if you leave the outpost (even in numbers) it will be near impossible to reach another outpost before getting killed. Say you make all waypoints contested during the night, so if you die you need your fellow players to res you or you will stay dead and miss the rewards. Add a few mobs that require serious coordination/maxed masteries to beat and you will have meaningful and engaging open world content.

this right here must be one of the worst ideas i’ve heard in a long long time for this game. night in guild wars 2 lasts for approximately 40 minutes. you want people to stay in a camp for 40 minutes because the mob difficulty and density is such that even with a group of players you won’t make it. you want them to stop whatever it is they’re doing and just hang in there for 40 minutes fighting off mobs that require coordinated effort and max masteries just to stay alive. oh my god, the fun. and if they don’t make it in time for that amazing content they’ll die, and stay dead unless they res in another map (points in this one would be contested) or some other person comes to res them and then die right next to them so they can socialise in a meaningful manner those 40 minutes. brilliant, just brilliant.

you sir, should apply for a developer position. you’ve got this.

i suggest they also develop a system where they can send small charges of electricity through your mouse and keyboard. and when you die or get hit, you take a small electric shock, you know to help you improve.

also, reverse leaderboards. scrap the best, record the worst and then publish their names in the website each month so as the rest of the community can mock and ridicule the worst players.

Hey!, Now I remember why I don’t post in the forums.

Anyhow, for the sake of the argument: I believe that Gw2 has been in a position where most (if not all) of its content is still pretty casual, and it has been like this for almost 3 years. If there is people who find the current state of the game acceptable and entertaining that’s fine, but most of the community wants content that is engaging (at the very least)

Engaging and challenging content should not be exclusive to the instances we might get, open world content should also be challenging. If someone finds HoT to be so difficult and frustrating because it makes him/her use half a neuron more than usual to hit the dodge key or use reflects/blocks/evades to stay alive maybe GW2 HoT is not the content that person should be playing. We’ve had 3 years to get used to the mechanics in such a way a lot of the content seems trivial, something new and engaging is way better than to dump 20 more maps of the same stuff we’ve been doing for years.

I’ve been a constant player of this franchise for the past 9 years, with over 4k hours played on each game. If someone still thinks that his/her opinion is equally important to the vast majority of people who have invested thousands of hours in this game because he/she paid the same well then I have bought 2 regular accounts and a collectors edition, plus the definitive version of HoT and a lot of gems. (plus all the GW1 games) so uhm yeah, my opinion is “importanter” or whatever.

But more on the serious note, GW2 is an easy game to play, people who are new to MMOs find it fun, people with a little more experience find it lacking content that makes them care for the mechanics of the game, since HoT is targeted for players with lvl 80 characters it’s only natural to bump its difficulty in a way those players find it engaging, new and “casual” players have all the vanilla content to help them understand and learn the mechanics they’ll need to face HoT’s content.

As to the argument of who to cater, “casual” or “veteran” players, I think that if casual means “if its too difficult I’ll leave the game until they nerf it” then Arena Net should not be catering to those players, and instead should focus on the players who care about leveling their masteries if that means they can now beat some content they previously couldn’t, who will stay trying to beat certain challenging world boss and collaborate with the map for it, the people who will make videos, guides, builds and walkthroughs for dungeons or raids or whatever and the people who will consume such media to help them achieve such goals, the players that want to see GW2 grow and evolve and not stagger in the same underwhelming difficulty for years. If those are the “veteran” players, then yes, I think Arena Net should be listening to them.

:D Peace

As I stated earlier I did not think it was too difficult. I am a hardcore lazy gamer. By that I mean I play a lot but I play only one class, warrior. I tried others but none were to my liking. I may try playing a Revenant though, that looked interesting and some similarities to a warrior.

Posting again to share this though. If you have a challenging experience, don’t you feel like this after it’s over?

Druj Rosenkloitz.3729:

Hey!, Now I remember why I don’t post in the forums.

:D Peace

Cause you’re full of bad ideas and can’t stand the criticism that follows when you post?

just a guess :P

Tanstaafl.9481:

Posting again to share this though. If you have a challenging experience, don’t you feel like this after it’s over?

not if everyfight is like that… for me at least, others claim differently

PorceleinEve.2973:

Tanstaafl.9481:

Posting again to share this though. If you have a challenging experience, don’t you feel like this after it’s over?

not if everyfight is like that… for me at least, others claim differently

Did not mean to seem offensive. I roam solo a lot and died a few times myself but after a while you get a feel for how the mobs play and you can avoid some and pick your fights with others as you get a feel for them.

I played my usual warrior a couple of races. The very first story mission was really a confusion for me but I managed. Went down once or twice in that mission. Then I played the second time, same class. I had a good idea of how the mobs played and was on that nasty archer first thing. Second mission play through went much better.

At first, follow around a couple people at night and stay cautious during the day. Sure it can be frustrating at first but It is a learning experience for sure.

steve.2945:

At the beginning i found myself dying pretty fast against the mordrem, getting hit for 2k+ per hit, and when i have to survive till dawn, more then 1 can really ruin the experience.

At the beginning, you also might have been playing an unfamiliar profession/specialization, build, and set of weapons. A good test of whether it’s the mobs or experience is taking the same build/gear to core Tyria, especially dungeons, and see how well that goes.

Tanstaafl.9481:

Did not mean to seem offensive. I roam solo a lot and died a few times myself but after a while you get a feel for how the mobs play and you can avoid some and pick your fights with others as you get a feel for them.

I played my usual warrior a couple of races. The very first story mission was really a confusion for me but I managed. Went down once or twice in that mission. Then I played the second time, same class. I had a good idea of how the mobs played and was on that nasty archer first thing. Second mission play through went much better.

At first, follow around a couple people at night and stay cautious during the day. Sure it can be frustrating at first but It is a learning experience for sure.

You didn’t sound offensive Don’t be silly.

Winning a difficult fight is fun, having every fight being difficult isn’t. That was the point I tried to make

Am I the only one person around here who thinks that maybe it shouldn’t be frustrating at first?

Algreg.3629:

PorceleinEve.2973:

I say make ‘em even harder, one wrong dodge and you’re down in one hit. That way the casuals will leave even faster and the game will follow the path of wildstar. That ’ll be “hardcore” ammirite?

if you died in WS from every single hit, it really illuminates just how bad a player you are. But I guess you just picked that up to sound informed.

Doesn’t mean your a bad player, there could be a lot of reasons why…many people died a lot. Not knowing the skills for one, bad internet for another. And many many mobs coming at once. Not everyone has super computers and super fast internet. They have to make it so a large base of players can play. So your one of the fortunate ones i guess.

PorceleinEve.2973:

Am I the only one person around here who thinks that maybe it shouldn’t be frustrating at first?

I doubt you’re the only one.

Frustration is “The condition that results when an impulse or an action is thwarted by an external or an internal force.” I’ve yet to meet any players who want to lose fights — at least on a regular basis. However, mobs are opposition. If there is no possibility of frustration for any player in fighting a new mob, then the mob is not providing real opposition to anyone, never mind players whose skill is above average. In order for a video-game fight to challenge a player, there has to be the possibility of losing while actually trying to win.

If a mob has little to no possibility of winning a fight, then there is no challenge and players do not ever stretch themselves or their capabilities in the game. While I am of the opinion that the greater challenges in any MMO are going to come from PvP, I see no evidence that the HoT mobs are proving to be on a par with fighting a skilled player. It’s just that the threshold for winning a fight has been moved up a bit.

anduriell.6280:

ScribeTheMad.7614:

We just don’t want every single fight to be that way.
We don’t want to fight every single mob between points A and B every time we make the trek
Trash mobs rarely dropped anything interesting anyway, and if they keep the same mindset that SW had they won’t drop almost anything at all
People keep saying we need more challenging and more rewarding content.
But all I see is harder and less rewarding.

So that’s the problem, you want another mindless farming map. The mobs in SW do’t drop anything if you only farm events. the trash mobs do drop stuff like wooden chest and such. exactly the same as tequal’s trash mobs.
Although i agree we could use some love there and let those trash mobs to drop something same as Ulgort’s pre event-

I really hope Anet doesn’t listen those kind of comments to make Hot like a mindless farming map. We have already too many of those and i need something to actually play.
I like the actual state, i like that you can’t just zombie run thru the map were you can’t be bother to even see what is around.

I’m not asking for another mindless farming map.
I’m suggesting a tiny step down (seriously, tiny step down) will balance the difficulty of the map better for long term enjoyment.
I’m liking the more interesting fights.
I am.
But that level of fight intensity is going to get old, especially as player density thins as people move further into the jungle.

On the other hand, maybe building in masteries that over time give you minor bumps against certain mobs would do the trick. Start off and everything is like we see.
Then as you conquer the zone you gain experience against the mobs, “learning their weaknesses” if you will, gaining something like a permanent version of the slayer potions, a small bonus to damage vs them, and a small reduction in damage from them.
Don’t want that bonus? don’t learn that mastery.
Win win.

PorceleinEve.2973:

[…] What about a new player with green gear or yellow. They don’t count? […]

A player going into HoT is not new. They have generally played enough PvE or WvW to get to level 80 and have excellent rare or exotic gear. Even without doing any crafting, it would be rather unusual for a player to make it to level 80 and not have found exotic gear replacements.

PorceleinEve.2973:

[…] I’m calling for HoT to remain consistent with the rest of the game’s experience. That means that the content should be fairly easy if you’re full on ascended and with legendary weapons. […]

According to: http://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/31wbip/ascended_vs_exotic_gear_comparison_spreedsheet ascended gear can give up to a 12.5% increase over exotics. That’s assuming all weapons, trinkets and gear are ascended. Which not everyone has. That would be a huge time investment.

Your assumption that ascended gear gives a huge advantage is false. It’s fairly minimal. Yes, it would be nice to have that small percentage. I don’t have it.

PorceleinEve.2973:

[…]you sir, should apply for a developer position. you’ve got this.

i suggest they also develop a system where they can send small charges of electricity through your mouse and keyboard. and when you die or get hit, you take a small electric shock, you know to help you improve.[…]

and

PorceleinEve.2973:

Cause you’re full of bad ideas and can’t stand the criticism that follows when you post?

You might want to cancel the ad hominem and supply constructive criticism instead of bashing people.

I think everyone understands your position, however your attitude and lack of a cogent argument are working against you.

Despite your advocacy for a walk in the park, if you read the various threads, a large majority of the people like the challenge and the level, excepting some of the monsters (snipers and smokescales) and in places the monster density seems a bit high (perhaps the smokescales should not be so social).

I also suspect that the GW2 team had the respawn timer low on purpose to give the large population of beta testers something to fight.

@NitricRose.1863
“I also suspect that the GW2 team had the respawn timer low on purpose to give the large population of beta testers something to fight.”

That’s a very good point that I hadn’t considered, that the respawn timers (and possibly the density) is set to max number of mobs because there are larger numbers of players in that area than there will be a few days after the expansion starts and we need something to check for bugs while in there.

NitricRose.1863:

You might want to cancel the ad hominem and supply constructive criticism instead of bashing people.

I think everyone understands your position, however your attitude and lack of a cogent argument are working against you.

Despite your advocacy for a walk in the park, if you read the various threads, a large majority of the people like the challenge and the level, excepting some of the monsters (snipers and smokescales) and in places the monster density seems a bit high (perhaps the smokescales should not be so social).

I also suspect that the GW2 team had the respawn timer low on purpose to give the large population of beta testers something to fight.

I did provide constructive critisism showing how bad that idea was. You -just- conveniently left it out. How nice of you.

Also it would be great, if you understood what an ad hominem is. See, I didn’t say that he’s a bad person, and because of that his idea was also bad. I said that his idea was bad and then followed with some light sarcasm and irony while providing other bad ideas. So nowhere in there was a reference to that person’s character or use of it as a means to discredit the argument. But thanks for letting me know. Means a lot.

The argument has already been made. There’s nothing else to say about it. It is just fine as an argument, the problem here isn’t the argument I’m making. It’s the fact that the game hasn’t had any meaningfull update in such a long time, that everything now sounds amazing and fresh and fantastic. Simply put, people just for a weekend, got unbored. We got the “new car smell” in our nostrils, everything is super. But since i have 8 characters, 9 come this expansion, I tend to see things more longterm than others.

As for the “large majority” of people, I have my doubts. I think that us forum goers are the minority. So a large majority of a small minority, is still a small minority.

However I do think that a lot of people will be dissappointed. See, for the difficulty to have any meaning, the rewards must be better than what we get usually. But if the rewards are better, people will flock into the map, zerging everything and anything, farming mastery xp, mats, gold, whatever it is the rewards will be. But then, if in a zerg, the map is going to stop being “challenging”, cause if it is, the zerg will leave. They just can’t win with this one. Either they’ll keep the rewards the same and the difficulty the same and then nobody would be on that map after a couple of months cause it’s unproductive, or they’ll up the rewards and the map will become trivial anyways (because zerg) and farmed to death till they’re forced to curb the rewards again. Just a prediction. So ultimately, it’s in everyone’s best interests to keep the overall experience constant, since that’s what the players have been used to and nobody will object. Except maybe the loud minority in the forums. Plus they’ll be adding raiding or challenging world bosses anyways so everyone can get their “preferred” playstyle.

Instead what we have here are people advocating for a change in the design philosophy of the game. Just because they’re bored (my opinion, not a statement of truth for the easily confused).

As for the gear a new player will have, I have to admit (done it already) that it’s a very valid argument and anet did hand out exotics to the testers so it’s safe to assume that, that’s the expected entry gear into the maguuma. Having said that, i’m fairly sure that the heavy bulk of complaints comes from the people with that minor 12.5% edge (again opinion). You should try it btw, see how much easier everything is.

PorceleinEve.2973:

As for the “large majority” of people, I have my doubts. I think that us forum goers are the minority. So a large majority of a small minority, is still a small minority.

Our german CM postet a while ago that only 7-8% read the forums and only 1%
post at the forums. So yeah .. that “large majority” here is in the end less than
1% of the total players.
And it has also postet on many different gaming forums that naturally hardcore
players, like raiders and PvPlers are overrepresentated on forums.

Beldin.5498:

PorceleinEve.2973:

As for the “large majority” of people, I have my doubts. I think that us forum goers are the minority. So a large majority of a small minority, is still a small minority.

Our german CM postet a while ago that only 7-8% read the forums and only 1%
post at the forums. So yeah .. that “large majority” here is in the end less than
1% of the total players.
And it has also postet on many different gaming forums that naturally hardcore
players, like raiders and PvPlers are overrepresentated on forums.

And now I have to reply the same as I allready said on this thread about Hard Content: Colin and others Devs have said in several lives that they are aware a large amount of players are looking for more challenging content and that HoT will suposely fix that issue. So it’s not just a minority that is looking for more hard content.

As for the raider and PVPer overrepresentated it make sens since this kind of gamer usualy get more involve in the game and therefore see what’s missing or not working and they want to provide feedback in order to keep the game in good shape. Most of the time, Casual gamers are less involve in the game and don’t feel the need to change things because this doesn’t affect their limited gameplay (not negative they just usualy don’t play for the performance) or simply are not experienced enough to see what doesn’t work.

I don’t say ALL players want challenge. But you can’t deny their is a large amount of players that ask for Hard Content and they currently can’t find it in this game. HoT is a way to change that, it has been said again and again during lives (but they did not say how, I agree). Devs don’t change things just based on the forum, but also with support feedback, live feedback, convention feedback and so on and so on… So if they choose to make it harder, wich they have said in live (I know I repeat myself!) it is for a good reason and not only for a minority of players.