Guild Wars 2

I apologize if the answer to this question should be rather obvious, but it must be asked: What happens when the defiance bar reaches 0%? I know it is supposed to regenerate, but if all that is required for a CC to work is for it to be at 0%, and if CC’s are what bring the bar meter down, doesn’t that mean that you could CC lock a boss once it hits 0%?

So long as there’s a constant stream of CC’s, it would be stuck at perpetually 0% the entire time save for the first few moments, right? If that’s the case, it seems like it negates the purpose of defiance past the initial few moments of a boss fight, because once the bar hits 0%, it’s not likely going to regenerate when you have a zerg firing CC’s at it from all directions, thus CC locking the boss.

How I think it’s going to work is that the boss is perma-immune to CC, but when you use a CC on it, it will take away a chunk of its defiance power, and if it hits 0 the boss staggers and go in a weakened state. What it does depends on the boss.

In short it looks like they took a few pages (if not the entire encyclopaedia!) from Final Fantasy 13’s stagger mechanics.

They mentioned the wyvern being unable to fly when staggered. They also gave the example of another boss popping a defensive shell and when you stagger the shell shatters and the boss is vulnerable.

in one of the early live streams we saw a foe at 0 have the bar pop back all the way to 100% instantly at some point. So whether or not it gives them some specialized weakened state or all CC works for a short amount of time, after, say a few seconds, it goes right back to full.

once it reaches 0, the boss is hit by a pre-determined stun (so even if the final hit is a knockback or a blind, it will stun the boss), and then the bar it back to full again, probably in “you can’t damage it right now” mode.

BrunoBRS.5178:

once it reaches 0, the boss is hit by a pre-determined stun (so even if the final hit is a knockback or a blind, it will stun the boss), and then the bar it back to full again, probably in “you can’t damage it right now” mode.

This, except it might not be a stun, but a ‘encounter appropriate effect’. Type of CC doesn’t, from how I read it, matter at all.

Windsagio.1340:

BrunoBRS.5178:

once it reaches 0, the boss is hit by a pre-determined stun (so even if the final hit is a knockback or a blind, it will stun the boss), and then the bar it back to full again, probably in “you can’t damage it right now” mode.

This, except it might not be a stun, but a ‘encounter appropriate effect’. Type of CC doesn’t, from how I read it, matter at all.

yeah, but the “default” version of it is a stun.

AndrewMcLeod.3857:

When the bar is emptied, the boss will be affected by his defiance behavior, such as getting stunned or becoming vulnerable. After that happens, there’s a cooldown period where the boss is completely immune to crowd control, and then the defiance bar is filled and becomes active again.

This can somewhat depend on the boss, though, as some have custom defiance behavior like the Wyvern. For the Wyvern, there’s no cooldown period, but it is immune to CC except for during its takeoff skill, and the defiance bar is disabled at other times.

So just to be clear- with the new expansion, we will no longer be able to directly cc champion level and above mobs – they will have a pre-defined vulnerability state and cc will only ever strip defiant? So, we will not be able to scorpion wire mai trin into a blue circle, or deep freeze the berserker from the molten duo?

yes that’s exactly what will happen I think he stated it quite clear…

MaXi.3642:

yes that’s exactly what will happen I think he stated it quite clear…

Well I wasn’t sure if that only applied to new content only, or if old bosses will be retro-fitted that way as well. That’s what i’d like to know, how old content will be effected by this change.

How will that new defiance work with Taunt?

Taunt is a CC effect so it looks like it will just take a portion off of the defiance bar and not do anything on a boss like forcing it to attach you. If that’s the case then it doesn’t look like Taunt will be very useful in PvE when fighting boss.

Bearhugger.4326:

How will that new defiance work with Taunt?

Taunt is a CC effect so it looks like it will just take a portion off of the defiance bar and not do anything on a boss like forcing it to attach you. If that’s the case then it doesn’t look like Taunt will be very useful in PvE when fighting boss.

I dont feel like taunt is meant to be used in the way alot of people are assuming it will be. Theres more to taunting then just tanking a boss. The ability to force a mob out of a safe point for one.

Taunt will be a CC not a tanking method (atleast primarily) fitting into the theme of control. It can be used to tank but I imagine bosses won’t be tankable in that sense.

Frankly It has never made sense to me why a giant 100 foot long dragon would focus on one dinky little guy in really good armor infront of ihm when theres a cluster of squishies right behind him. Taunting hasn’t made much logical sense in that way.

However on the smaller scale it makes perfect sense.

Taunting seems like it will be used precisely as a control skill through different method.

Say your a class with a taunt skill. The boss your fighting summons a very powerful add. Similar in strength to a champion risen abomination who has a very lethal mechanic of being more dangerous the longer he fights. You could temporarily take control of this creature using a taunt preventing it from getting initial stacks by kiting it through slows and walls as well as buying time for those around it to recognize that its a threat and turn there fire upon it.

A guardian could taunt the mob and use active defense to mitigate the normally lethal attacks it unleashes during the fight.

A warrior could pop stances with the taunt in order to go toe to toe with it for a short time.

A ranger could lay down cripple fields while kiting backwards avoiding any long range assaults it has.

These are the way I see taunt being used in the future. As a way of temporarily holding dangerous mobs. Not in tanking bosses.

rfdarko.4639:

Well I wasn’t sure if that only applied to new content only, or if old bosses will be retro-fitted that way as well. That’s what i’d like to know, how old content will be effected by this change.

it’s a change to defiance system, not just to some NPCs, everything what uses it will be influenced… and he said that some NPCs will have an effect which is part of the event (e.g. Wyvern) and others will just have some general stun or vulnerability window (e.g. general champs and most old bosses)

Bearhugger.4326:

How will that new defiance work with Taunt?

Taunt is a CC effect so it looks like it will just take a portion off of the defiance bar and not do anything on a boss like forcing it to attach you. If that’s the case then it doesn’t look like Taunt will be very useful in PvE when fighting boss.

taunt is a CC in the first place, all CCs are not very usefull in PvE as you know… nothing to really speculate about here…

I don’t think a lot of people actually expect Taunt to allow people to “tank” like other MMOs allows tanks to do, because it’s lacking the most important aspect of Taunt.

The most important point of a classic “taunt” skill is to put the tank on top of the threat list so that the boss can stay on the tank forever. However, Guild Wars 2’s Taunt does not seem to do that at all. (It was described as just a reversed fear.) Instead it just forces the boss to attack you with only auto-attacks for a short duration and then once the Taunt wears off the boss will go back to normal. Also, knowing Arenanet their Taunt will probably last 3 seconds on a 80 seconds cooldown. Nothing to make you “tank” in a classical sense.

But Taunt has potential to be really cool for players who like to have very high defenses. Say you’re a warrior and a friend is out of dodges and a big attack is coming, so you Taunt/Shield Stance, block (or reflect!) the big attacks, then when Taunt wears off the boss returns to the previous target that you probably saved. (Assuming it doesn’t actually block all skills for a boss creature.)

But if a boss is immune and you can only use it on elites and below then suddenly it’s not very useful. I don’t really care about the realism of attacking the most armored guy; when players gear themselves in full tough/vit and equip weapons with a lot of blocks just to get utterly ignored, it’s not fun. Taunt looks like it could allow such players to still be meaningful in PvE and save people or move the boss around without forcing the “trinity” into the game. But it needs to be useful on bosses…

So this is still going to be “count down to zero, use exactly one skill, boss goes immune to CC again for a while” type of system? Except refilling even faster than before?

I guess visual indicator is better than counting stacks, and now instead of 1-to-1 counting we’ll have to “visually” gauge how many particular skills are left. So if group is not highly organized it’ll be same stuff, view from the side :P “Why did you try to fear if there was only enough bar left for a blind! Now it’s immune again!!!”

MaXi.3642:

rfdarko.4639:

Well I wasn’t sure if that only applied to new content only, or if old bosses will be retro-fitted that way as well. That’s what i’d like to know, how old content will be effected by this change.

it’s a change to defiance system, not just to some NPCs, everything what uses it will be influenced… and he said that some NPCs will have an effect which is part of the event (e.g. Wyvern) and others will just have some general stun or vulnerability window (e.g. general champs and most old bosses)

This is my understanding but he didn’t state it explicitly, thus I was asking for confirmation. :P They could theoretically have a differnet solution for current dungeons that uses the new system but allows a single cc through for the vulnerability phase rather then applying a generic stun, where as bosses in new HoT content get their boss specific effect.

Bugabuga.9721:

So this is still going to be “count down to zero, use exactly one skill, boss goes immune to CC again for a while” type of system? Except refilling even faster than before?

no, it will be count down to zero and watch what will happen, you wont be able to use one CC skill as now, that’s the main difference…

Does a character’s stats influence the strength of the control granted on a defiant enemy? Presumably an ability that is traited to do a 1.5 second stun will be more effective than the base 1 second stun, but does, say, condition duration influence this? Could toughness?

I ask because this’d be a quick and dirty way to make certain stats more useful in dungeon running.

Bearhugger.4326:

The most important point of a classic “taunt” skill is to put the tank on top of the threat list so that the boss can stay on the tank forever. However, Guild Wars 2’s Taunt does not seem to do that at all. (It was described as just a reversed fear.) Instead it just forces the boss to attack you with only auto-attacks for a short duration and then once the Taunt wears off the boss will go back to normal. Also, knowing Arenanet their Taunt will probably last 3 seconds on a 80 seconds cooldown. Nothing to make you “tank” in a classical sense.

Oh my god. Someone else that gets the difference between classic taunts and gw2 taunt! I thought I was the only one on all those “taunt” threads.

But Taunt has potential to be really cool for players who like to have very high defenses. Say you’re a warrior and a friend is out of dodges and a big attack is coming, so you Taunt/Shield Stance, block (or reflect!) the big attacks, then when Taunt wears off the boss returns to the previous target that you probably saved. (Assuming it doesn’t actually block all skills for a boss creature.)

That won’t happen for two reasons:

a) Taunt is CC so it will be affected by Defiant like all CC skills.
b) Bosses have a pre-assigned way to behave when the Breakbar is depleted. I doubt any boss will have a “taunt” effect as their behavior.

But if a boss is immune and you can only use it on elites and below then suddenly it’s not very useful. I don’t really care about the realism of attacking the most armored guy; when players gear themselves in full tough/vit and equip weapons with a lot of blocks just to get utterly ignored, it’s not fun. Taunt looks like it could allow such players to still be meaningful in PvE and save people or move the boss around without forcing the “trinity” into the game. But it needs to be useful on bosses…

Well I used to run TA with a guildie that had a PVT AH Guardian and he never-ever got mob threat, only took damage from AoEs. I doubt this will change with some Taunt condition.

Weapons and utilities with lots of blocks are more useful for people without tough/vit, so they can stay alive. Players with defensive abilities can instead focus on damaging weapons / utilities to be more effective.

maddoctor.2738:

Well I used to run TA with a guildie that had a PVT AH Guardian and he never-ever got mob threat, only took damage from AoEs. I doubt this will change with some Taunt condition.

Maybe they’re different somehow, but in fractals anyways, a celestial or knight or magi AH guardian will almost always get all the threat