Guild Wars 2

My commander is not military. She worked with the pact and took some responsabilities related to combat and soldiers, and she also knows how to kill all kind of creatures. But she was not trained as a militar, doesn’t truly care about militar structure, and doesn’t have any moral limitation asociated to such organization (or any other moral limitation, to be honest)

She’s an explorer and a mercenary, totally ruthless and without time to spare.

SoTaimi has a physical problem and is regarder as a youngling by her people? But she is also a readily available genius interested in killing dragons that seems able to defend herself as long as she is not in the middle of a battle?

WHATEVER WORKS.

Djinn.9245:

You obviously think it is fine for actual adults to encourage young people to accompany them into situations filled with the dead and dying, where that young person is very likely to become one of those statistics. I do not think it is fine, I think it is abhorrent. But as it is fiction, that is not my point. My entire point was that it wasn’t believable writing.

Now you’re the one putting words into my mouth. Please don’t do that. Never did I say anything close to that, I only pointed to the existence of people younger than Taimi performing heroic deeds in entertainment, I did not say anything close to what you are suggesting.

You’re free to abhor the encouragement of young people to go into dangerous situations where they would be risking their lives, in fact I do too. I definitely do not believe that the work of fiction related to the characters I pointed out above either encourages young people to go into dangerous situations willingly and risk their lives nor do I believe that was the intent of any of those writings. In fact, one of the things I pointed out, “The Ables” is absolutely a book about showing disabled kids that they too can be heroes, it’s about representation in the media so that they don’t feel isolated, so that they can immerse themselves in characters that are in similar situations to them, it’s about providing encouragement that they can do just as well as any other person and succeed just as much as anyone else, no matter what their disability is. It is NOT about encouraging disabled children to put themselves into dangerous situations where they’d be risking their lives, you can even ask the author yourself about it (Jeremy, the narrator of cinemasins). Kamala Khan and Riri Williams are also about representation, about giving powerful characters for young girls to identify with, to show them that they too can be successful in the face of racism and sexism, that they can be just as kittenpiderman and other famous heroes, just as capable of doing the right thing, just as capable at succeeding as anyone else. It’s not about encouraging young children into dangerous situations no matter how much you may attempt to argue around it, especially considering the hyperbole of superpowers, magic or extremely powerful technology which doesn’t exist in our world that exists in those works of fiction. I don’t know if Taimi was intentionally designed to be representation for young people (while she is 17, she’s also way smaller than asura player characters), but I know for a fact that the writers at Anet did NOT make Taimi into some sort of encouragement for young people to throw themselves in dangerous situations.

As for the believability of Taimi, she is believable considering everything that I pointed out before. You’re free to not agree with me, but her writing as of now, as of living world season 3, her writing is definitely believable within the world of Tyria.

Sartharina.3542:

There’s one big problem with the idea of trying to reject Taimi – She’s already Scarlet 2.0. She’s ‘still in school’ because of her age, not her ability, and her trust and friendship with the Commander and the Biconics are the only thing really keeping her allied with society. With her particular brand of research, depending on where the Commander tried to reject Taimi (And, given her youth, probably provoke an irrational, Braham-level act of revenge. Except powered by golems and ley-lines.)

Do we want a friendly ally content to stay in a lab or single somewhat-primitive golem and serve as mission control and tech support for the team, or do we want to try to face yet another existential threat-level villain protected by an automated army who’s usurped control over the waypoint and asura gate system, feeds elder dragons to each other for her own amusement, uses machines similar to Omadd’s to see and manipulate the world in a manner beyond the capacity of anyone else, and essentially be able to Ley-Line Nuke anywhere she sees fit? Because you can kitten well bet that’s what would happen. She has the leads on dragon and ley magic, and while it will take more experimentation and self-reliance on her caution, she’d also be freed from having to give a kitten about the rest of the world or its people, because they’re all kittenheads who need to die anyway (As demonstrated by the way they treated and rejected her)

Reality check: Taimi is not in charge of her story, Anet is

What I would like to see is Taimi not directing the entire story / operation with the Commander and Rytlok (before he had to leave) saying “how high” to Taimi’s every request. I would like to see a more believable story.

castlemanic.3198:

Djinn.9245:

You obviously think it is fine for actual adults to encourage young people to accompany them into situations filled with the dead and dying, where that young person is very likely to become one of those statistics. I do not think it is fine, I think it is abhorrent. But as it is fiction, that is not my point. My entire point was that it wasn’t believable writing.

Now you’re the one putting words into my mouth. Please don’t do that. Never did I say anything close to that, I only pointed to the existence of people younger than Taimi performing heroic deeds in entertainment, I did not say anything close to what you are suggesting.

First, I said “it is fiction” so I am talking about being fine with adults encouraging young people to put themselves into that situation in fiction – sorry that wasn’t more clear. And I don’t care if it is in fiction, I still find it abhorrent that I am portrayed as encouraging Taimi to put herself at risk. And the fact that you not only are arguing FOR it but also provided all of the examples you did, seems to indicate that you are fine with that type of writing. If that is not the correct conclusion, I apologize.

But I still don’t find it a “believable” story, even in the world of Tyria, for adults to put Taimi in this situation. Apparently they are all extremely heartless.

Djinn.9245:

First, I said “it is fiction” so I am talking about being fine with adults encouraging young people to put themselves into that situation in fiction – sorry that wasn’t more clear.

No worries

And I don’t care if it is in fiction, I still find it abhorrent that I am portrayed as encouraging Taimi to put herself at risk.

I don’t think the commander has EVER encouraged Taimi to put herself at risk. I think Taimi has always put herself at risk, even when every other person would suggest otherwise.

And the fact that you not only are arguing FOR it but also provided all of the examples you did, seems to indicate that you are fine with that type of writing. If that is not the correct conclusion, I apologize.

No worries, but that IS the wrong conclusion. If you knew these characters, you would discover that in those cases trouble finds them or they go off on their own against the discretion of those older than them. In the wheel of time series, the main protagonist is actually found by someone much older than him to attempt to keep him away from the big evil of that world so that he may rise up against it after he is trained for several years. Of course, things don’t go as planned, and he throws himself in the fray several times, especialy in scenarios when only he can act and save the day. Kamala Khan discovers her powers after a worldwide event and ends up saving someone’s life, deciding at that moment to become a superhero. In “The Ables” trouble finds the kids at the highschool, they’re being trained for when they are much older but, by circumstance and not at adult encouragement, they are forced into action to save the day. Riri Williams is possibly the ONLY example out of everything that I’ve pointed out where she was encouraged by Tony Stark to take up the mantle of Iron Man, except the reason Iron Man discovered her in the first place was because she built her own suit that rivaled anything Tony Stark built, again pointing to her own decision to join the fray, having not been manipulated or encouraged by anyone before that point.

But I still don’t find it a “believable” story, even in the world of Tyria, for adults to put Taimi in this situation. Apparently they are all extremely heartless.

Again, Taimi was the one who put herself into those situations every time. She has actively done so every time. Our very first introduction to her was when we were fighting the giant marionette, she showed up on her own. The commander never encouraged her to stay and fight, she at EVERY point showed up of her own volition, by her own choice. We previously discouraged Taimi, but she has shown herself to be mature and just as capable as anyone in Dragon’s Watch. Even then we still have this dialogue:

Taimi: But no golem for the immediate future means this is the end of the road for me.
Taimi: I’ll be staying in Rata Novus with all this delectable research—bummer!
<Character name>: Alone? Are you sure?
Taimi: Hey, would you ask Rytlock if he was sure? Canach?
<Character name>: Point taken. Should I send word to someone back at Rata Sum, let them know you’re here?
Taimi: Uh… No, thanks. I’ll take care of that…in, like, a few weeks or so.

All the members, especially the commander, care about Taimi and her well being. We actively see that. We’re not being heartless. She has actively put herself in harms way, at first for knowledge, but after that for the sake of Tyria. She did that on her own, she would not take no for an answer, and ultimately she is acting on her own behalf, at the encouragement of no one but herself. Honestly, the best thing for Taimi’s safety was for her to join Dragon’s Watch, since she would have always put herself in danger anyway (the evidence is literally all of her appearances), we may as well protect her in the best way we know how, by standing at her side during a fight.

castlemanic.3198:

Djinn.9245:

First, I said “it is fiction” so I am talking about being fine with adults encouraging young people to put themselves into that situation in fiction – sorry that wasn’t more clear.

No worries

And I don’t care if it is in fiction, I still find it abhorrent that I am portrayed as encouraging Taimi to put herself at risk.

I don’t think the commander has EVER encouraged Taimi to put herself at risk. I think Taimi has always put herself at risk, even when every other person would suggest otherwise.

If my teenaged nephew tells me that he wants to come with me when I go out drinking at the club, I say “no”. To bring him along just because he wants to come would not only be irresponsible, it would be encouraging him. No one would have to worry about Taimi’s wellbeing if she simply wasn’t involved. It seems you are saying that just because Taimi keeps putting her nose into things, we should give in and let her have her way. Should I behave that way with my nephew? “He just keeps showing up illegally in the clubs I go to, so I decided I’ll just take him with me from now on.”

Djinn.9245:

If my teenaged nephew tells me that he wants to come with me when I go out drinking at the club, I say “no”. To bring him along just because he wants to come would not only be irresponsible, it would be encouraging him.

This is a strawman by it’s very definition. That’s not the situation with Taimi and you know it.

Taimi has thrown herself into dangerous situations every time she as a character shows up (before season 3). The commander NEVER stood there while Taimi pleaded with us to take her along because reasons and excuses. Taimi doesn’t care what we think. Taimi at EVERY point has done whatever she pleases, actively going into well known dangerous situations when other people have encouraged her NOT to do that thing. Every time, she has ignored those people and gone straight into battles, placing HERSELF in danger every single time. It is NOT anywhere near the same thing that you suggest it is.

EDIT:

Djinn.9245:

No one would have to worry about Taimi’s wellbeing if she simply wasn’t involved. It seems you are saying that just because Taimi keeps putting her nose into things, we should give in and let her have her way. Should I behave that way with my nephew? “He just keeps showing up illegally in the clubs I go to, so I decided I’ll just take him with me from now on.”

Again, you’re putting forth a strawman argument. It’s not the same thing in the slightest. Yes, no one would have to worry if Taimi wasn’t involved, but Taimi actively involves herself in battles. She modified Scruffy for BATTLES. Your extremely false equivalents fail to actually take in the scope of Taimi’s character and the situation surrounding her.

castlemanic.3198:

Djinn.9245:

If my teenaged nephew tells me that he wants to come with me when I go out drinking at the club, I say “no”. To bring him along just because he wants to come would not only be irresponsible, it would be encouraging him.

This is a strawman by it’s very definition. That’s not the situation with Taimi and you know it.

Taimi has thrown herself into dangerous situations every time she as a character shows up (before season 3). The commander NEVER stood there while Taimi pleaded with us to take her along because reasons and excuses. Taimi doesn’t care what we think. Taimi at EVERY point has done whatever she pleases, actively going into well known dangerous situations when other people have encouraged her NOT to do that thing. Every time, she has ignored those people and gone straight into battles, placing HERSELF in danger every single time. It is NOT anywhere near the same thing that you suggest it is.

His last sentence made reference to his nephew just showing up on own, as you state Taimi does.

Ashen.2907:

His last sentence made reference to his nephew just showing up on own, as you state Taimi does.

First, he edited his post after I began replying to him, and I modified my post accordingly.

Second, the whole argument is STILL a strawman because a young person showing up to a bar is nowhere near the same as a young person throwing themselves into battles and being just as effective as the soldiers on the field while having the smarts to try and figure out a way to permanently defeat the enemy, smarts that NOBODY ELSE FIGHTING HAS.

There is a world’s difference between the two situations.

castlemanic.3198:

Djinn.9245:

If my teenaged nephew tells me that he wants to come with me when I go out drinking at the club, I say “no”. To bring him along just because he wants to come would not only be irresponsible, it would be encouraging him.

This is a strawman by it’s very definition. That’s not the situation with Taimi and you know it.

Taimi has thrown herself into dangerous situations every time she as a character shows up (before season 3). The commander NEVER stood there while Taimi pleaded with us to take her along because reasons and excuses. Taimi doesn’t care what we think. Taimi at EVERY point has done whatever she pleases, actively going into well known dangerous situations when other people have encouraged her NOT to do that thing. Every time, she has ignored those people and gone straight into battles, placing HERSELF in danger every single time. It is NOT anywhere near the same thing that you suggest it is.

EDIT:

Djinn.9245:

No one would have to worry about Taimi’s wellbeing if she simply wasn’t involved. It seems you are saying that just because Taimi keeps putting her nose into things, we should give in and let her have her way. Should I behave that way with my nephew? “He just keeps showing up illegally in the clubs I go to, so I decided I’ll just take him with me from now on.”

Again, you’re putting forth a strawman argument. It’s not the same thing in the slightest. Yes, no one would have to worry if Taimi wasn’t involved, but Taimi actively involves herself in battles. She modified Scruffy for BATTLES. Your extremely false equivalents fail to actually take in the scope of Taimi’s character and the situation surrounding her.

Yes, Anet has written a story where Taimi conveniently knows when and where everything is going to happen so she can throw herself into the situation. However, at some point we decided to accede to her wishes and are actively cooperating with her. This is what I am talking about and no, I don’t see it as a strawman.

Ashen.2907:

castlemanic.3198:

Djinn.9245:

If my teenaged nephew tells me that he wants to come with me when I go out drinking at the club, I say “no”. To bring him along just because he wants to come would not only be irresponsible, it would be encouraging him.

This is a strawman by it’s very definition. That’s not the situation with Taimi and you know it.

Taimi has thrown herself into dangerous situations every time she as a character shows up (before season 3). The commander NEVER stood there while Taimi pleaded with us to take her along because reasons and excuses. Taimi doesn’t care what we think. Taimi at EVERY point has done whatever she pleases, actively going into well known dangerous situations when other people have encouraged her NOT to do that thing. Every time, she has ignored those people and gone straight into battles, placing HERSELF in danger every single time. It is NOT anywhere near the same thing that you suggest it is.

His last sentence made reference to his nephew just showing up on own, as you state Taimi does.

Better to let the nephew come along where you can keep an eye on them. Otherwise, they’re just going to start going to different clubs, and maybe stop being in your life completely. Even if getting to the club requires building a giant robot army that destroys anything that tries to stop them.

castlemanic.3198:

Ashen.2907:

His last sentence made reference to his nephew just showing up on own, as you state Taimi does.

First, he edited his post after I began replying to him, and I modified my post accordingly.

Second, the whole argument is STILL a strawman because a young person showing up to a bar is nowhere near the same as a young person throwing themselves into battles and being just as effective as the soldiers on the field while having the smarts to try and figure out a way to permanently defeat the enemy, smarts that NOBODY ELSE FIGHTING HAS.

There is a world’s difference between the two situations.

Ok, I change my situation to my nephew wanting to accompany me on police patrol. He is a great martial artist and can use a handgun so that makes it ok for him to accompany me, right? As long as the person is capable, it shouldn’t matter to me if they are young, or disabled, or whatever, right? The more the merrier!

Djinn.9245:

Ok, I change my situation to my nephew wanting to accompany me on police patrol. He is a great martial artist and can use a handgun so that makes it ok for him to accompany me, right? As long as the person is capable, it shouldn’t matter to me if they are young, or disabled, or whatever, right? The more the merrier!

This is still a strawman because it’s not the same thing as what Taimi does. There is no real world equivalent you can make to accurately portray the Taimi scenario, and thus any real world example you throw forth is a strawman.

You ALSO missed the most important parts of my argument.

Here is what I posted:

castlemanic.3198:

a young person throwing themselves into battles and being just as effective as the soldiers on the field while having the smarts to try and figure out a way to permanently defeat the enemy, smarts that NOBODY ELSE FIGHTING HAS.

Notice the vast differences between this and what you mention?

You mention your nephew wanting to come along on patrols, him having martial arts training and is good with a handgun.

That’s not the situation with Taimi.

Taimi throws herself into battles (so it’s not a case of begging or pleading to join a patrol route) is just as effective as any other soldier (so there’s no martial arts training or ANY sort of training equivalent you can draw from that) while having the smarts to figure out a way to defeat the enemy, smarts that NOBODY ELSE HAS (aka beyond current scientific research, so again, there’s no real world comparison to draw here).

There’s no real world example you can compare this to. There is nothing you can say that changes the basic fact that within the world of Tyria, within the story presented in GW2, the writing for Taimi IS believable, IS accurate within a FANTASY world full of dragons and mechanical golems that fight just as effectively as any soldier on the battlefield, including those soldiers with MAGIC.

castlemanic.3198:

Djinn.9245:

Ok, I change my situation to my nephew wanting to accompany me on police patrol. He is a great martial artist and can use a handgun so that makes it ok for him to accompany me, right? As long as the person is capable, it shouldn’t matter to me if they are young, or disabled, or whatever, right? The more the merrier!

This is still a strawman because it’s not the same thing as what Taimi does. There is no real world equivalent you can make to accurately portray the Taimi scenario, and thus any real world example you throw forth is a strawman.

You ALSO missed the most important parts of my argument.

Here is what I posted:

castlemanic.3198:

a young person throwing themselves into battles and being just as effective as the soldiers on the field while having the smarts to try and figure out a way to permanently defeat the enemy, smarts that NOBODY ELSE FIGHTING HAS.

Notice the vast differences between this and what you mention?

You mention your nephew wanting to come along on patrols, him having martial arts training and is good with a handgun.

That’s not the situation with Taimi.

As I said in my original example, my nephew would just show up. Sorry I didn’t state it in the precise manner this time. I expected it to be understood. So my nephew gets a police scanner and shows up at dangerous situations. Since he’s going to show up anyway, I should just go ahead and take him with he on patrol, right?

castlemanic.3198:

Taimi throws herself into battles (so it’s not a case of begging or pleading to join a patrol route) is just as effective as any other soldier (so there’s no martial arts training or ANY sort of training equivalent you can draw from that) while having the smarts to figure out a way to defeat the enemy, smarts that NOBODY ELSE HAS (aka beyond current scientific research, so again, there’s no real world comparison to draw here).

Yes, Taimi has a gun just like my nephew would. Equivalent tools = equivalent situation. And I am POSITIVE that if the team needed more brains, they could find someone with both brains and better suited for combat situations than a disabled child.

castlemanic.3198:

There’s no real world example you can compare this to. There is nothing you can say that changes the basic fact that within the world of Tyria, within the story presented in GW2, the writing for Taimi IS believable, IS accurate within a FANTASY world full of dragons and mechanical golems that fight just as effectively as any soldier on the battlefield, including those soldiers with MAGIC.

I am talking about ATTITUDE, not fantasy, etc. If you are saying that adults in Tyria all think it is fine to accept a young disabled person into a group that regularly faces horrific situations and mass death, I have to say that I don’t see it. I have map completion and have never encountered any kind of general attitude like that.

You need to also consider that Tyria IS NOT MODERN, FIRST WORLD EARTH.

During most of humanity’s history, and in fact, in many places all over the world even today, young people do need, want and have to take responsibility over their lives and the lives of others, often puting themselves at risk. 17 years old people go to work, take care of their families, go to war, have children. Many of them do a terrific job we should be grateful for. It is not good by our standards, it can be extremely cruel and heartbreaking, but it is real.

With 17 years on her life, if Taimi were a real human she will not be even close to an infant. She’s on the fringe of adulthood in a lot of modern societies, and well over the age of motherhood in most historic societies.

So, yes, she’s quite young, by our modern, first world standards. But I don’t think Tyria can be considered that similar to our own place. Please remember the most ancient of the oldest Sylvari today has only 26 years… Tyrians can’t be judged by the same rules as us.

Ardid.7203:

You need to also consider that Tyria IS NOT MODERN, FIRST WORLD EARTH.

During most of humanity’s history, and in fact, in many places all over the world even today, young people do need, want and have to take responsibility over their lives and the lives of others, often puting themselves at risk. 17 years old people go to work, take care of their families, go to war, have children. Many of them do a terrific job we should be grateful for. It is not good by our standards, it can be extremely cruel and heartbreaking, but it is real.

And yet, as I already stated, after gaining map completion I don’t recall a general attitude that in Tyria young people are tragically expected or even allowed to enter the fighting.

Ardid.7203:

With 17 years on her life, if Taimi were a real human she will not be even close to an infant. She’s on the fringe of adulthood in a lot of modern societies, and well over the age of motherhood in most historic societies.

Who said anything about infant? That’s an extreme comparison. And as I said, I don’t see a general situation in Tyria of young adults being mothers or other “adult” situations.

Ardid.7203:

So, yes, she’s quite young, by our modern, first world standards. But I don’t think Tyria can be considered that similar to our own place. Please remember the most ancient of the oldest Sylvari today has only 26 years… Tyrians can’t be judged by the same rules as us.

Sylvari are born adults.

Djinn.9245:

As I said in my original example, my nephew would just show up. Sorry I didn’t state it in the precise manner this time. I expected it to be understood. So my nephew gets a police scanner and shows up at dangerous situations. Since he’s going to show up anyway, I should just go ahead and take him with he on patrol, right?

Again, strawman because it doesn’t completely encompass the entire situation with Taimi.

Yes, Taimi has a gun just like my nephew would. Equivalent tools = equivalent situation. And I am POSITIVE that if the team needed more brains, they could find someone with both brains and better suited for combat situations than a disabled child.

In ALL the combat scenarios we have with Taimi, she has a wearable ROBOT with special combat abilities. Not equivalent tools, so strawman. The team didn’t go looking for Taimi, she found US. There’s a huge difference.

I am talking about ATTITUDE, not fantasy, etc. If you are saying that adults in Tyria all think it is fine to accept a young disabled person into a group that regularly faces horrific situations and mass death, I have to say that I don’t see it. I have map completion and have never encountered any kind of general attitude like that.

Attitudes VARY BETWEEN REALITY AND FANTASY. That’s the whole POINT of fantasy, to view different worlds, cultures, opinions and attitudes. That’s pretty much the point of ALL ENTERTAINMENT. To view things that we normally wouldn’t be able to see, and a part of that is the difference in ATTITUDE. Again, Taimi isn’t in a wheelchair, she’s in a BATTLE CAPABLE GIANT ROBOT (giant compared to her that is). There is no real world equivalent you can draw. There is no real world attitude you can compare it to because, FUNDAMENTALLY, there is a huge difference in basic thought processes between real world humans and the vast variety of races within Tyria. That’s the point of my argument. Every comparison you attempt to draw between Tyria and the real world will FAIL because of the fundamental differences between the two.

So, in the end, from the perspective of Tyria, Taimi’s writing is believable whether you choose to see it that way or not.

Djinn.9245:

Yes, Taimi has a gun just like my nephew would. Equivalent tools = equivalent situation. And I am POSITIVE that if the team needed more brains, they could find someone with both brains and better suited for combat situations than a disabled child.

And here is where you’d absolutely be dead wrong. Taimi is the #1 leading expert on Dragon Magic by a long shot.

Also – have you ever heard of the Hardy Boys?

castlemanic.3198:

Taimi isn’t in a wheelchair, she’s in a BATTLE CAPABLE GIANT ROBOT

And the entire Pact fleet was decimated by the same jungle that she accompanied us into in her robot. If any of the adults in the Commander’s group think that Taimi being in a robot = being safe, when the armed Pact warships and helicopters weren’t safe, they are all more stupid than they already seem.

But as I have said, you see a different Tyria than I see. I have seen no indication over the years I played before Taimi was introduced that Tyrian races allow, nevermind encourage, young adults into dangerous or otherwise adult situations. You claim this is normal and believable for GW2. You obviously are welcome to your opinion but I don’t share it.

(Oh, and all the yelling doesn’t make me believe your POV any better than non-yelling.)

Sartharina.3542:

Djinn.9245:

Yes, Taimi has a gun just like my nephew would. Equivalent tools = equivalent situation. And I am POSITIVE that if the team needed more brains, they could find someone with both brains and better suited for combat situations than a disabled child.

And here is where you’d absolutely be dead wrong. Taimi is the #1 leading expert on Dragon Magic by a long shot.

According to Taimi.

Djinn.9245:

And the entire Pact fleet was decimated by the same jungle that she accompanied us into in her robot. If any of the adults in the Commander’s group think that Taimi being in a robot = being safe, when the armed Pact warships and helicopters weren’t safe, they are all more stupid than they already seem.

From the very first instance that introduces us to Heart of Thorns:

Taimi: Hey, boss! Rata Sum was all abuzz over the Pact Fleet disaster. I knew you’d get involved, so I came to pitch in.
Taimi: Scruffy and I gave these locals a lesson in Mordrem bashing while we waited for you. Oh, and Canach helped, too.

She came ON HER OWN. That’s the entire point I’ve been making again and again, which you simply don’t want to acknowledge for some reason since you keep making the same arguments over and over again. We did not invite her, she came to us. She is as battle capable as anyone in the group and she has shown that multiple times. She has proved herself as a soldier, as a combatant, as an engineer and as an asuran scientist. You can’t get around this. Taimi has always acted as her own individual and proved herself as such, even against some of the greatest odds Tyria has seen, regardless of her age and disability.

But as I have said, you see a different Tyria than I see. I have seen no indication over the years I played before Taimi was introduced that Tyrian races allow, nevermind encourage, young adults into dangerous or otherwise adult situations.

Do I REALLY have to repeat myself? Really? You KNOW it has nothing to do with ‘allowing’ or ‘encouraging’ young adults into dangerous situations (also Norn and Charr societies would like to disagree with you), because it has EVERYTHING to do with Taimi acting on her own volitions, as I have mentioned repeatedly. If you don’t like the facts of the situation, that’s fine, but this blatant ignoring of facts is beyond belief.

You claim this is normal and believable for GW2. You obviously are welcome to your opinion but I don’t share it.

You’re welcome to not share it but the evidence is there regardless of whether you choose to see it or not.

Taimi’s going to die young anyway. Why does it matter if it’s from her disease or being eaten by dragon minions?

Djinn.9245:

Ardid.7203:

You need to also consider that Tyria IS NOT MODERN, FIRST WORLD EARTH.

During most of humanity’s history, and in fact, in many places all over the world even today, young people do need, want and have to take responsibility over their lives and the lives of others, often puting themselves at risk. 17 years old people go to work, take care of their families, go to war, have children. Many of them do a terrific job we should be grateful for. It is not good by our standards, it can be extremely cruel and heartbreaking, but it is real.

And yet, as I already stated, after gaining map completion I don’t recall a general attitude that in Tyria young people are tragically expected or even allowed to enter the fighting.

Ardid.7203:

With 17 years on her life, if Taimi were a real human she will not be even close to an infant. She’s on the fringe of adulthood in a lot of modern societies, and well over the age of motherhood in most historic societies.

Who said anything about infant? That’s an extreme comparison. And as I said, I don’t see a general situation in Tyria of young adults being mothers or other “adult” situations.

Ardid.7203:

So, yes, she’s quite young, by our modern, first world standards. But I don’t think Tyria can be considered that similar to our own place. Please remember the most ancient of the oldest Sylvari today has only 26 years… Tyrians can’t be judged by the same rules as us.

Sylvari are born adults.

Someone havent watched the cubs play with the ghost’s outside black citadel

I strongly suspect Taimi is older and more mature than the average Blood Legion soldier.

Djinn.9245:

I am talking about ATTITUDE, not fantasy, etc. If you are saying that adults in Tyria all think it is fine to accept a young disabled person into a group that regularly faces horrific situations and mass death, I have to say that I don’t see it.

Could it be that a small, young, physically disabled and female character does not fit into your stereotype of a “hero”? All your talk and comparisons about the hirarchy of NATO and the physical requirements for elite Seal teams implies you habor a narrow “strong man” ideal. Then, of course, Taimi will never be “believable” to you. I, for one, appreciate that Tyria is more diverse than that and has more to offer than physical force to win a battle (like magic and engineering, as others have pointed out).

Djinn.9245:

Why don’t we have someone from the top ranks of Asura culture who has already proven themself?

Because unlike in the real world, where this great concept of hirarchy (“top ranks”) has somehow blessed us with with a billionaire with the interlectual capacity of a slice of toast and a relaxed relationship with the truth as “leader of the free world”, maybe in ANets fantasy world we as PCs are more prudent and value actual merit and loyality over social standing.

Djinn.9245:

Why don’t we have someone from the top ranks of Asura culture who has already proven themself?

Because the usual Top Rank asura don’t have the personalities that work well with our intend of saving of the world

Ardid.7203:

You need to also consider that Tyria IS NOT MODERN, FIRST WORLD EARTH.

During most of humanity’s history, and in fact, in many places all over the world even today, young people do need, want and have to take responsibility over their lives and the lives of others, often puting themselves at risk. 17 years old people go to work, take care of their families, go to war, have children. Many of them do a terrific job we should be grateful for. It is not good by our standards, it can be extremely cruel and heartbreaking, but it is real.

With 17 years on her life, if Taimi were a real human she will not be even close to an infant. She’s on the fringe of adulthood in a lot of modern societies, and well over the age of motherhood in most historic societies.

So, yes, she’s quite young, by our modern, first world standards. But I don’t think Tyria can be considered that similar to our own place. Please remember the most ancient of the oldest Sylvari today has only 26 years… Tyrians can’t be judged by the same rules as us.

Tyria is closer to the modern world than to ancient or historic societies. It includes:

Automatic personal firearms,
Helicopters
Submarines
Heavy industry
Sophisticated medical knowledge and technology.
Motorized ground vehicles.
Sophisticated agricultural technology.
And so on.

Tyria is an industrial age, similar to the first half of the twentieth century, setting with some fantasy trappings for flavour.

Ashen.2907:

-snip-
Tyria is an industrial age, similar to the first half of the twentieth century, setting with some fantasy trappings for flavour.

Except when you look beyond humans and charr, and even if you don’t, the benefits have been split between the two cultures, charr being essentially the progenitors for the steampunk technological revolution and are probably the reason for most of the technological side of things (helicopters, submarines etc) while humanity as a whole has an entirely separate focus and more resembles a premodern society, for the most part mimicking historic societies that you claim Tyria doesn’t represent (except for some upgrades such as automatic sprinkler systems that I remember seeing around queensdale, forgive me if I’m wrong, and watchknights which are magic dependent for some of their functions).

The sylvari are the easiest to see this difference with. Sylvari culture is almost uniquely magical without the slightest hint of technological advancement because their needs are fundamentally different from the rest of Tyrian society, being magical creatures by nature (and, funnily enough, somewhat OF nature). Everything they, as a society, needs is accomplished purely through magical feats, including their architecture being purely grown (there’s one sylvari who laments the slower process of building a fort when she can simply grow one in a matter of days that confirms this, their architecture as a whole being another give away).

Norn on the other hand more resemble a collection of hunter-gatherers that very loosely form a society, being a race of independent beings seeking out their own glory that would be told for the ages. They, as a society, essentially resemble ancient nordic societies (at least a very stereotypical one if not completely accurate) with a key religious difference. While there are norn engineers (and sylvari engineers too), there is the fundamental difference in that technology is not a part of their ways, and that those who use technology are, at a glance at least, enigmas within their own society.

Asura on the other hand resemble modern society more than charr and humans with a few very key differences. The primary difference between the asura and our real life society is the method of technological function. While at some points they seem to have more technological prowess than our modern society does (screens that float above consoles, portals that cover vast distances and robots with fully developed AI), they blend their technology with magic, creating effects in many cases that are simply pure fantasy.

Therefore, based purely on the playable races, it is extremely easy to say that, no, Tyrian society is NOT “similar to the first half of the twentieth century, setting with some fantasy trappings for flavour”, because there are a huge variety of differences between Tyrian society and the real world, even when looking at the charr, who mostly resemble the technological stage that you mention. In fact, if you look at the charr specifically, their society is distinctly based on historical societies, using Ancient Roman titles and appearances, Ancient Spartan societies and a history similar to that of the Mongols. Their technology being the only factor of similarity, but even then their technology is vastly different than ours in both form and function. All of their vehicles are designed for warfare and they have a much heavier reliance on black powder than our human society has ever done. That’s excluding the fantasy elements associated with their technology (the iron legion personal story has the player build what’s called a ‘ghostbore musket’ which has the sole function of making the ascalonian ghosts reform after a much greater period of time).

The comparisons simply further cease to exist when looking at other races such as the largos, underwater creatures who require a breathing mask to stay on land areas, the dredge which focus on sonic technology and drilling, the hylek which focus on alchemy and the many other races (and species) too. These are not ‘some fantasy trappings for flavour’, but are the core of this fantasy world (especially considering everything with the elder dragons). It is apt to recall these fantasy based differences when talking about Taimi and how her role in the story would vary from that of a 17 year old in our modern society.

Also there’s almost no such thing as ‘medical technology’ within the game that anywhere NEAR resembles either the modern day or that of the early twentieth century, the closest we get is the med kit that engineers can equip which literally uses a healing spray that doesn’t exist in the modern world. Medicine is primarily alchemical or magical.

castlemanic.3198:

Djinn.9245:

And the entire Pact fleet was decimated by the same jungle that she accompanied us into in her robot. If any of the adults in the Commander’s group think that Taimi being in a robot = being safe, when the armed Pact warships and helicopters weren’t safe, they are all more stupid than they already seem.

She came ON HER OWN. That’s the entire point I’ve been making again and again, which you simply don’t want to acknowledge

Why are you purposefully stating something that isn’t true about what I have said? I have already acknowledged that she shows up places on her own. But I also know that every young adult doesn’t do this – because they are told (sometimes over and over) not to. On top of that, Taimi is written to do this, she isn’t a real person. And what I am saying I disagree with is that writing. I don’t find it believable that a group of adults are ok with putting Taimi in these situations. It doesn’t matter that she shows up, they are complicit by their acceptance. I personally would send her home. If I made it clear from the start that she wasn’t welcome, she wouldn’t show up all friendly like “Hi, I’m here”. At least if the writing was believable which it is not.

Djinn.9245:

You claim this is normal and believable for GW2. You obviously are welcome to your opinion but I don’t share it.

castlemanic.3198:

You’re welcome to not share it but the evidence is there regardless of whether you choose to see it or not.

Yes, we all have our own opinions. I’m glad you are giving me permission to have mine.

Linken.6345:

Djinn.9245:

Ardid.7203:

You need to also consider that Tyria IS NOT MODERN, FIRST WORLD EARTH.

During most of humanity’s history, and in fact, in many places all over the world even today, young people do need, want and have to take responsibility over their lives and the lives of others, often puting themselves at risk. 17 years old people go to work, take care of their families, go to war, have children. Many of them do a terrific job we should be grateful for. It is not good by our standards, it can be extremely cruel and heartbreaking, but it is real.

And yet, as I already stated, after gaining map completion I don’t recall a general attitude that in Tyria young people are tragically expected or even allowed to enter the fighting.

Ardid.7203:

With 17 years on her life, if Taimi were a real human she will not be even close to an infant. She’s on the fringe of adulthood in a lot of modern societies, and well over the age of motherhood in most historic societies.

Who said anything about infant? That’s an extreme comparison. And as I said, I don’t see a general situation in Tyria of young adults being mothers or other “adult” situations.

Ardid.7203:

So, yes, she’s quite young, by our modern, first world standards. But I don’t think Tyria can be considered that similar to our own place. Please remember the most ancient of the oldest Sylvari today has only 26 years… Tyrians can’t be judged by the same rules as us.

Sylvari are born adults.

Someone havent watched the cubs play with the ghost’s outside black citadel

Perhaps you’re talking about the event:

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Stay_near_the_Crush_cubs_and_keep_the_ghosts_away

The cubs aren’t playing with the ghosts, if you look at the wiki (or actually do the event) you see that you are actually governing their fear level…..

Djinn.9245:

Why are you purposefully stating something that isn’t true about what I have said? I have already acknowledged that she shows up places on her own. But I also know that every young adult doesn’t do this – because they are told (sometimes over and over) not to. On top of that, Taimi is written to do this, she isn’t a real person. And what I am saying I disagree with is that writing. I don’t find it believable that a group of adults are ok with putting Taimi in these situations. It doesn’t matter that she shows up, they are complicit by their acceptance. I personally would send her home. If I made it clear from the start that she wasn’t welcome, she wouldn’t show up all friendly like “Hi, I’m here”. At least if the writing was believable which it is not.

You haven’t acknowledged the full meaning of Taimi showing up to places on her own, which is that she is her own person. She has never put too much faith in authority figures as I have mentioned previously for the reasons have stated previously, regarding the loss of her parents and her actively leaving Zojja and Rata Sum behind on several occasions to do whatever she pleases. We have already covered this, several times, and you seem to enjoy ignoring it because it doesn’t fit your narrative perspective. I understand that you disagree with the writing, but it IS believable within the world of Tyria. You keep asserting comparisons to the real world where those comparisons don’t fit, and that’s especially true with everything to do with Taimi, especially considering she isn’t human and the majority of dragon’s watch, including the commander potentially, isn’t human either. Even when you look at human characters, the culture is still different than ours in the modern day era, especially considering how, historically, the age of adulthood was much younger. You are looking at this story from the perspective of a human in the real world and in the modern day, instead of the perspective of a character who was born and raised in Tyria, and that’s the flaw in your argument. Standards differ across modern day cultures, you surely wouldn’t expect standards to remain the same within a fantasy world full of dragons and magic, and part of those standards include the capability of a character whether it is their mind (such as Taimi’s capacity for engineering), body, or magical ability. In Taimi’s case, it’s her capacity for engineering a giant battle capable robot and her smarts regarding elder dragons and their magic. Even without the giant robot, she is still just as capable.

You have consistently ignored things that I have mentioned (sometimes over and over again) just so you can repeat the same arguments when I’ve countered it several times over. So I’m done.

Djinn.9245:

Linken.6345:

Djinn.9245:

Ardid.7203:

You need to also consider that Tyria IS NOT MODERN, FIRST WORLD EARTH.

During most of humanity’s history, and in fact, in many places all over the world even today, young people do need, want and have to take responsibility over their lives and the lives of others, often puting themselves at risk. 17 years old people go to work, take care of their families, go to war, have children. Many of them do a terrific job we should be grateful for. It is not good by our standards, it can be extremely cruel and heartbreaking, but it is real.

And yet, as I already stated, after gaining map completion I don’t recall a general attitude that in Tyria young people are tragically expected or even allowed to enter the fighting.

Ardid.7203:

With 17 years on her life, if Taimi were a real human she will not be even close to an infant. She’s on the fringe of adulthood in a lot of modern societies, and well over the age of motherhood in most historic societies.

Who said anything about infant? That’s an extreme comparison. And as I said, I don’t see a general situation in Tyria of young adults being mothers or other “adult” situations.

Ardid.7203:

So, yes, she’s quite young, by our modern, first world standards. But I don’t think Tyria can be considered that similar to our own place. Please remember the most ancient of the oldest Sylvari today has only 26 years… Tyrians can’t be judged by the same rules as us.

Sylvari are born adults.

Someone havent watched the cubs play with the ghost’s outside black citadel

Perhaps you’re talking about the event:

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Stay_near_the_Crush_cubs_and_keep_the_ghosts_away

The cubs aren’t playing with the ghosts, if you look at the wiki (or actually do the event) you see that you are actually governing their fear level…..

Yea and you as an adult dont send them home instead walk with them and indulge in their game, how dare you put them in danger man?

Its the same thing with Taimi you dont control them or her.

This was a response to you since you said no were in core game were children put into danger.

One of the things that I think people forget. Is just how absolutely kittenty tyria is as a place to live.

Honestly a child prodigy ending up in danger…disabled or not doesn’t seem that out of place. Considering EVERYONE is in danger at any given time.

Civilians are attacked and killed CONSTANTLY in their own homes across the world. Hordes of undead repeatedly ravage settlements to the south.

Bandits, Centaurs, Inquest, Dragon Minions, the wildlife (THE MOSQUITO’S IN TYRIA ARE LETHAL).

This world sucks. Oh everyone talks about it pretty cheerfully and handles things in stride. But thats because thats all they have known. Their used to it. “Oh my neighbor got eaten by drakes on his front doorstep? kitten not again”. Is about the sum of it for the most part.

Unlike the vast majority of people. Taimi has the DIRECT protection of (correct me if I am wrong) the single deadliest combatant on the planet at this point in time. Think about that for a minute. Could the council really protect her better than we can without making her skills absolutely useless by bundling her up in a holding cell somewhere? Do we really think that anything that is going to go after her couldn’t just chew through whatever defenses the asurans put in place?

Between the likely static (heh) defenses of the asurans or an entity on the level of Elder Dragons who has absolutely slaughtered in dozens of horrible fashions anything that has stood in its way. What would you want your “progeny” hid behind.

Linken.6345:

Djinn.9245:

Linken.6345:

Djinn.9245:

Ardid.7203:

You need to also consider that Tyria IS NOT MODERN, FIRST WORLD EARTH.

During most of humanity’s history, and in fact, in many places all over the world even today, young people do need, want and have to take responsibility over their lives and the lives of others, often puting themselves at risk. 17 years old people go to work, take care of their families, go to war, have children. Many of them do a terrific job we should be grateful for. It is not good by our standards, it can be extremely cruel and heartbreaking, but it is real.

And yet, as I already stated, after gaining map completion I don’t recall a general attitude that in Tyria young people are tragically expected or even allowed to enter the fighting.

Ardid.7203:

With 17 years on her life, if Taimi were a real human she will not be even close to an infant. She’s on the fringe of adulthood in a lot of modern societies, and well over the age of motherhood in most historic societies.

Who said anything about infant? That’s an extreme comparison. And as I said, I don’t see a general situation in Tyria of young adults being mothers or other “adult” situations.

Ardid.7203:

So, yes, she’s quite young, by our modern, first world standards. But I don’t think Tyria can be considered that similar to our own place. Please remember the most ancient of the oldest Sylvari today has only 26 years… Tyrians can’t be judged by the same rules as us.

Sylvari are born adults.

Someone havent watched the cubs play with the ghost’s outside black citadel

Perhaps you’re talking about the event:

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Stay_near_the_Crush_cubs_and_keep_the_ghosts_away

The cubs aren’t playing with the ghosts, if you look at the wiki (or actually do the event) you see that you are actually governing their fear level…..

Yea and you as an adult dont send them home instead walk with them and indulge in their game, how dare you put them in danger man?

I agree, and I said the same thing about Taimi. It is bad writing.

Linken.6345:

Its the same thing with Taimi you dont control them or her.

This was a response to you since you said no were in core game were children put into danger.

Yes, you found one other place. This was probably written by the same person. However, my point was that this wasn’t a “common occurrance”. People were trying to make a case that Tyria was a more medieval society where children were considered as adults and therefore put in adult situations all the time. My point was that as I went through Tyria, I didn’t see this situation of children commonly being treated like adults.

And in this situation, these children aren’t being treated like adults NOR are they acting like adults. They are scared children and you are protecting them.

The charr cubs are significantly younger than Taimi, who’s probably of similar age to the fresh-out-of-the-Fahrar Blood Legion soldiers (Though they use the same model as other charr, the dialogue indicates they are VERY young) at Temperus Point.

Also, when it comes to Charr Cubs – they’re generally not far from danger, though they are generally within retreating distance to safety. Unless they’re getting their souls eaten by necromancer ghosts.

Taimi is a plot device – a Wesley Crusher from The Next Generation. Always has the appropriate techno-bauble at the ready. I find her neither cute nor entertaining, but that’s a personal preference which others obviously don’t concur with.

Her purpose and annoyance is a product of poor story telling.

Taimi is currently the only person ahead in Dragon’s Research because before the Zhaitan Arc the Arcane Council has been murdering anyone who discovered the threat of the Elder Dragons as we learned in the Personal Story of Asura Intro Arcs.

From what we learned so far the Arcane Council are still doing this in hopes to keep the majority of Rata Sum’s population ignorant of what is happening from beyond Rata Sum and believing if the Elder Dragon’s win they will be “Perfectly” safe in Rata Sum when the reality is they most likely will all die.

The only safe place for Asuras trying to run and prove certain Elder Dragon’s research so the world have a better chance at fighting them is the Pact or surviving on their own far from Rata Sum. If anyone of them try to return to Rata Sum with proof then the Arcane Council will make them disappear.

So far Taimi has not been a target of the Arcane Council because the research she provided was to fix the Waypoints. The Arcane Council do not know yet that Taimi has dug into Elder Dragon research which is most likely why they have not sent anyone from the Arcane Eye (the Arcane Council’s secret service) to “take care” of Taimi and her research.

Taimi is annoying, but for me Braham is the worst character. Acts too much like a spoiled brat and doesn’t think with his brain only his whiny emotions.

Sceylan.1078:

Taimi is annoying, but for me Braham is the worst character. Acts too much like a spoiled brat and doesn’t think with his brain only his whiny emotions.

A perfect rendition of a traumatized 16 year old boy from a culture that focuses on violence and self-reliance at the expense of support, though, gotta give them that.

SlippyCheeze.5483:

Sceylan.1078:

Taimi is annoying, but for me Braham is the worst character. Acts too much like a spoiled brat and doesn’t think with his brain only his whiny emotions.

A perfect rendition of a traumatized 16 year old boy from a culture that focuses on violence and self-reliance at the expense of support, though, gotta give them that.

Yes. If he were anything other than a Norn then the whining wouldn’t feel as out of place.

Moonyeti.3296:

Yes. If he were anything other than a Norn then the whining wouldn’t feel as out of place.

Except he’s totally acting in character for a norn who was estranged from his mother due to his father not wanting to stop Eir from becoming the hero/legend she was becoming. To Braham, Eir isn’t just a legend, she’s a figure of importance to him, his mother, and what greater honor could there be than witnessing the legend of your parent.

But Braham never saw Eir the legendary figure. Braham saw Eir, the norn who stayed at Hoelbrak while prisoners were taken from outlying norn holds, eventually (somehow) getting close to his mother, slowly but surely beginning a relationship that, really, Braham needed for closure on the absence of his mother when he was younger.

Except Eir died before Braham could see her as the legend everyone sang songs about. Braham never witnessed the legendary aspect of Eir, which must be a downer. Not only that, he witnessed the death of his mother, he failed to save her, he failed as a protector, as someone strongly connected to Wolf. Eir just became a part of his pack, but then she died.

But she didn’t simply die. She died broken and bruised. She died betrayed. She died weaponless. She didn’t die a hero’s death. Her death was everything BUT honourable. She didn’t even fight. She couldn’t. She had no weapons and she was up against a creature who killed her with a single, powerful blow, after she had been taken as a prisoner. She had no last stand, she had no victory, no greater goal that she fought and died for. She died betrayed, weaponless, without any of the glory due for someone of her stature, someone who fought two elder dragons, killing one and lived to tell the tale, who then died as an escapee from a prison camp.

All anyone else will know is that Eir died fighting Mordremoth, a heroic end to such a legendary figure. But Braham knows the truth, he witnessed it first hand. If he told the truth about Eir’s death to anyone, her legend would be shattered. All her great accomplishments marred by an inglorious death, caused by imprisonment and betrayal. No norn would ever attempt to sully the name of someone such as Eir, who did so much and accomplished so much in her lifetime. And so, Braham can’t grieve, not in the traditional sense. He never witnessed the legend that his mother created for herself, which would have provided some form of closure as to why she could not be by his side when he was younger. He could not save her when she needed him the most. He saw her die in a fashion that no norn should ever perish. No songs will be sung of her death, not any that resemble the truth anyway. Songs and stories won’t fill the void in his heart that he now has, when he finally opened up to Eir, only to have it ripped away, and not from a human standpoint, but from a norn standpoint.

So I totally believe that Braham is acting in character from a norn perspective. He can’t form the words he needs to say in order to grieve, for fear of tarnishing Eir’s legend, the most sacred thing to a norn’s legacy. Having the struggle between the lack of closure and knowing the horrible truth, Braham can’t act the way any norn would act about another’s death because his situation is all too unique. I think these aspects could definitely, without a doubt be portrayed better in game, Braham isn’t written well enough in my opinion, but I feel that his reactions are at least justified from a norn perspective, considering their culture surrounding legends and legacies.

castlemanic.3198:

Moonyeti.3296:

Yes. If he were anything other than a Norn then the whining wouldn’t feel as out of place.

Except he’s totally acting in character for a norn who was estranged from his mother due to his father not wanting to stop Eir from becoming the hero/legend she was becoming. To Braham, Eir isn’t just a legend, she’s a figure of importance to him, his mother, and what greater honor could there be than witnessing the legend of your parent.

But Braham never saw Eir the legendary figure. Braham saw Eir, the norn who stayed at Hoelbrak while prisoners were taken from outlying norn holds, eventually (somehow) getting close to his mother, slowly but surely beginning a relationship that, really, Braham needed for closure on the absence of his mother when he was younger.

Except Eir died before Braham could see her as the legend everyone sang songs about. Braham never witnessed the legendary aspect of Eir, which must be a downer. Not only that, he witnessed the death of his mother, he failed to save her, he failed as a protector, as someone strongly connected to Wolf. Eir just became a part of his pack, but then she died.

But she didn’t simply die. She died broken and bruised. She died betrayed. She died weaponless. She didn’t die a hero’s death. Her death was everything BUT honourable. She didn’t even fight. She couldn’t. She had no weapons and she was up against a creature who killed her with a single, powerful blow, after she had been taken as a prisoner. She had no last stand, she had no victory, no greater goal that she fought and died for. She died betrayed, weaponless, without any of the glory due for someone of her stature, someone who fought two elder dragons, killing one and lived to tell the tale, who then died as an escapee from a prison camp.

All anyone else will know is that Eir died fighting Mordremoth, a heroic end to such a legendary figure. But Braham knows the truth, he witnessed it first hand. If he told the truth about Eir’s death to anyone, her legend would be shattered. All her great accomplishments marred by an inglorious death, caused by imprisonment and betrayal. No norn would ever attempt to sully the name of someone such as Eir, who did so much and accomplished so much in her lifetime. And so, Braham can’t grieve, not in the traditional sense. He never witnessed the legend that his mother created for herself, which would have provided some form of closure as to why she could not be by his side when he was younger. He could not save her when she needed him the most. He saw her die in a fashion that no norn should ever perish. No songs will be sung of her death, not any that resemble the truth anyway. Songs and stories won’t fill the void in his heart that he now has, when he finally opened up to Eir, only to have it ripped away, and not from a human standpoint, but from a norn standpoint.

So I totally believe that Braham is acting in character from a norn perspective. He can’t form the words he needs to say in order to grieve, for fear of tarnishing Eir’s legend, the most sacred thing to a norn’s legacy. Having the struggle between the lack of closure and knowing the horrible truth, Braham can’t act the way any norn would act about another’s death because his situation is all too unique. I think these aspects could definitely, without a doubt be portrayed better in game, Braham isn’t written well enough in my opinion, but I feel that his reactions are at least justified from a norn perspective, considering their culture surrounding legends and legacies.

I like your explanation and why it works for you, but at the end of the day it just doesn’t do it for me. His whining is too much for someone supposedly so proud of his Norn heritage. An agree to disagree situation.

Also, considering the Norn culture, Braham situation of being “left behind as a child” by one parent to become a legend must be quite common. Baing raised with an absent mother or father must be very normal for them. Why is Braham taking it so hard?

Ardid.7203:

Also, considering the Norn culture, Braham situation of being “left behind as a child” by one parent to become a legend must be quite common. Baing raised with an absent mother or father must be very normal for them. Why is Braham taking it so hard?

Very few parents have legends close to those surrounding Eir, I’m assuming, since basically the destruction of an Elder Dragon has only recently become a thing, something that surpasses Aesgir’s legend of breaking off Jormag’s tooth, and even before that we have the stuff surrounding Eir befriending a dragon (Glint), a feat that is extremely uncommon considering every known dragon is corrupted in one fashion or another. Then there’s the fact that Braham didn’t even know who his mother was right up until his father’s death. That’s a pretty big bombshell to drop on someone just as you’re dying, followed by the stance of how Eir must not know about Borje’s death because if she knows, she may stray from her path as a legend to take care of Braham. The whammy is considerably larger when you take into account what Eir had accomplished.

Also, consider Braham’s age at the time. I was wrong in my previous assumption of just how young Braham was. According to the wiki, Braham was born in 1309, but Borje died in 1316, so Braham was 7 years old when his father died. To lose your father and be forbidden to reach out to your mother at such a young age when you’d need her the most? Braham isn’t by any standards ‘of age’ when his father passed away, so he had years to dwell on the idea of not reaching out to his only living parent as she made a name for herself and accomplished unbelievable feats. Also consider the fact that Braham is closest to Wolf. Members of a pack take care of each other, but Eir wasn’t there, and Braham could be bitter about that. Enduring several years without either parent while knowing one still lives and could teach you what it means to be a norn? That’s bound to make issues arise.

What’s more, when Braham finally meets up with her, he may be thinking that, essentially, what Eir accomplished while she was not tending to him needed to be of such amazing worth that it justified leaving him parentless in his formative years. Especially with a parent so connected to the same Spirit of the Wild as you are, one that represents unbreakable bonds. So it’s not simply a matter of Braham not having his mother around, as might be common with norn.

Wow. Eir really does let everyone down.

I do want to point out something regarding both Taimi and Braham. I feel like people aren’t satisfied with the portrayal of those characters. To me, it makes perfect sense who they are and how they act in general. But I believe the portrayal of their actions in game is lacklusters, the game doesn’t present the nuance to these characters that they have, Braham comes off as whiny because he isn’t being written properly, but the direction that’s being taken in general makes sense with his character arc. Taimi comes off as being a genius and making discoveries left and right, but there’s no intellectual back and forth to confirm the genius and having Taimi prove her intelligence, everyone just takes her word for it because she’s presented as an authority, and as such her portrayal is lackluster. While there isn’t enough room to create as much character depth in a video game as there is in a book, there are better ways of portraying these character arcs in game to give them the nuance and… uh… character…. that they deserve, especially for such upfront figures in the story. ArenaNet can do better in telling the story that they want to, but I don’t think the story itself is the problem with these characters.

castlemanic.3198:

But she didn’t simply die. She died broken and bruised. She died betrayed. She died weaponless. She didn’t die a hero’s death.

Anet wrote her death as though she wasn’t an experienced warrior. Broken and bruised? I imagine that is the natural state of every Norn. Betrayed? How does that affect how she dies? Weaponless? So if you don’t have a weapon you just give up and die? Even Faolain was better and AFAIK she wasn’t a warrior. She grabbed a thorn to use as an improvised weapon! Anet wrote Eir just standing there and nodding.

I agree it was a horrible death, but not because of Eir’s situation – because of horrible writing.

Djinn.9245:

Anet wrote her death as though she wasn’t an experienced warrior.

You are entirely wrong and I’ll go with each and every sentence to prove you wrong.

Broken and bruised? I imagine that is the natural state of every Norn.

It’s not the natural state of every norn to have been imprisoned for a long period of time and to have suffered under such conditions, especially being the prisoner of an elder dragon.

Betrayed? How does that affect how she dies?

An otherwise glorious death can be tainted by the act of a betrayal, removing the value of that death due to the cowardly nature that is betrayal. A glorious death is a fair fight and betrayal absolutely, in every case, makes it no longer a fair fight.

Weaponless? So if you don’t have a weapon you just give up and die? Even Faolain was better and AFAIK she wasn’t a warrior. She grabbed a thorn to use as an improvised weapon! Anet wrote Eir just standing there and nodding.

No, because you see, Eir was fleeing for her life after having already been imprisoned by an elder dragon. Imprisonment isn’t some nice fluffy holiday, it’s torture, constant oppression and it absolutely ruins a person’s fighting ability, even those who have the strongest wills because a body made of flesh can only take so much torture until it wears it down. On TOP of that, we have Faolain use the thorn on Eir who, if you remembered, threw it back at Faolain because of her betrayal. SO, not only was Eir in a completely horrible state physically beforehand, but she was also pretty badly wounded after that too. She then got killed in one hit. It’s impossible for someone in Eir’s position to have fought the vinetooth in any capacity, especially since she used what little remained of her energy to take down Faolain. Remember, Eir didn’t know about the vinetooth, but Faolain did, that’s why she used the giant thorn on Eir, to leave her behind as bait and save her own skin. On top of all of that, Eir had no weapon with her to defend herself against the vinetooth. If she had a weapon, she’d have at least attempted to use it but, in her weakened state, it would have been just as useful as a batch of cotton candy. There was no way out for Eir, there was no possible way she could have fought. She couldn’t even summon the energy to become the Wolf, a trait inherent to almost every norn. She could only die an inglorious death, one not worthy of someone such as Eir.

I agree it was a horrible death, but not because of Eir’s situation – because of horrible writing.

The writing is actually good if you look into it, using all the lore that we know of the norn and their culture and place that outlook onto Eir’s death. The writing is good, but they just haven’t fleshed out the world like they really need to in order to make events such as Eir’s death impactful and meaningful to the player. In the perspective of the characters within the game however, the death is very impactful, all the more so because of how inglorious of an end it was.

castlemanic.3198:

Djinn.9245:

Anet wrote her death as though she wasn’t an experienced warrior.

You are entirely wrong and I’ll go with each and every sentence to prove you wrong.

Broken and bruised? I imagine that is the natural state of every Norn.

It’s not the natural state of every norn to have been imprisoned for a long period of time and to have suffered under such conditions, especially being the prisoner of an elder dragon.

Betrayed? How does that affect how she dies?

An otherwise glorious death can be tainted by the act of a betrayal, removing the value of that death due to the cowardly nature that is betrayal. A glorious death is a fair fight and betrayal absolutely, in every case, makes it no longer a fair fight.

If betrayal makes you simply give up and let yourself be killed, you aren’t much of a warrior. But maybe in bad writing that’s how it is. Not like Eir shouldn’t have had a clue that Faolain might betray her lol.

castlemanic.3198:

Weaponless? So if you don’t have a weapon you just give up and die? Even Faolain was better and AFAIK she wasn’t a warrior. She grabbed a thorn to use as an improvised weapon! Anet wrote Eir just standing there and nodding.

No, because you see, Eir was fleeing for her life after having already been imprisoned by an elder dragon.

So was Faolain…

Djinn.9245:

If betrayal makes you simply give up and let yourself be killed, you aren’t much of a warrior. But maybe in bad writing that’s how it is.

This is a strawman, especially because I covered the point about Eir being unable to fight later on in my post which you conveniently didn’t quote and would have ruined your argument.

Not like Eir shouldn’t have had a clue that Faolain might betray her lol.

But that’s what heroes do. They help others, even in situations that may warrant otherwise. Also, again, as I pointed out before, Eir didn’t know about the vinetooth until after Faolain betrayed her, and it’s obvious from the cinematic that Faolain betrayed Eir because of the vinetooth’s appearance.

So was Faolain…

Except Faolain wasn’t trying to fight the vinetooth she knew she couldn’t stand up against, she was trying to survive by making Eir an easier, more appealing target than herself. You’re refusing to look at the full picture in order to fit the narrative that’s in your own head.