Guild Wars 2

FrizzFreston.5290:

s what happened, yes, what you said is theorizing and speculation. Glint “used us” and deceived us and all that. Really? It was 800+ years earlier when she formulated the prophecy. 200+ years after the Six Gods defeated Abaddon, put the bloodstones in the volcano and then left the world (And probably created the door of Komalie in the first place.)

If the seal was there for the entire time, “needing” Chosen for it to stay on or what not, then that is alot of people. So I really doubt that’s the case, as it would mean that right now that Door would still be open as there’s no one killing any chosen to keep it shut.

So your theory that Glint merely manipulated us 800 years before, which personally is a way too long time ago for it to even call manipulating, but hey.

Yes, Mursaat and Abaddon were there long before 800 years. She could have had the plan long ago and wait to pick the right time, the right individuals to start it.

As for the Door, it mostly started to weaken since Abaddon’s activities.What we saw is [b]it opened after the soul batteries were gone[b], after that, we defeated the Lich and used its soul to charged the gate with power to seal the gate.

“Yes. Those spirits you fought after destroying the soul batteries were once Chosen, just like you. But time and their imprisonment has changed many of them. But not all of us were transformed into those hideous things. Some of us remained good and pure of heart. And we are grateful to be free, but thanks to Vizier Khilbron’s treachery, our release came with a price… the release of the Titans.”

Undead Rurik: “The Door of Komalie must be closed.”
Undead Rurik: “Kill the Lich while he stands atop the Bloodstone inside the caldera.”
Undead Rurik: “If you do this, [b]his spirit will recharge the soul batteries, and the Door will be closed again.”[/b]

Then years later Abaddon was defeated, the Realm of Torment, including the Foundry of Failed Creation was cleansed. So there is no need for the seal anymore.

The way I remember it, Anet did comment on having “big plans for the mursaat later on”

Evans.6347:

MrTJpwnz.4710:

Evans.6347:

No one is pointing out that the three “Mursaat” in the trailer have different colours?
There’s blue, red and yellow.

Also they only have two energy tendrils coming out of their backs instead of the typical 14 black feathers. The one at the end also looks nothing like a Mursaat in body and attacking stance.

I’m not at all convinced these are Mursaat, in fact they appear to be much more like Djinn.

In that vid it is clearly visible that is has feet, so that it’s a snake is rubbish

I don’t see any feet, not at 1:00 or at 2:48.
Also, Flame and Diamond Djinn don’t have 4 arms.

But I digress, to me they are as alien to Mursaat as they are to Djinn.

I would totally entertain the Djinn Theory more but lets look at some of the details:

What we see in the video:
Floating beings, with glowing energized skin of three different colors, armor, two colorful wings, live in a in the jungle city made of gold.

GW1 Mursaat:
Floating beings, regular pale skin, armor, black wings, live in a city in a dense forest somewhere west of kryta.

GW1 Djinn:
Floating beings, glowing energized skin that came in different varieties, no armor, two colorful wings, live in a city covered with gold and jewels in Elona.

So what we are left with after comparing the two is difference between Mursaat Skin/wings and the Djinn wearing armor.

While it is possible that it could be the mursaat with their wings redesigned, and with a more energized appearance…… it is equally as possible that it is a djinn wearing armor.

The Big thing that leads me to believe it is a Mursaat is how much they just look like mursaat. I would feel differently if they looked like djinn.

Plus…… the “glowing skin” the Mursaat has appears to just be armor….. look at the head area…. and notice how it is still a pale grey….. I believe it is a Mursaat 100%

Valid point there. It’s possible that what’s happened is that the mursaat have developed a form of armour that projects an energy field to protect their bodies.

Could be an interesting mechanic, in fact, if mursaat at low health have a stage at which the energy field fails and they turn completely grey.

MrTJpwnz.4710:

Djinn have 4 arms. Don’t see 4 arms on them. Unless all of them got 2 arms amputated…

Ingame, only the water djinn clearly have a second pair of arms – fire and air djinn have a pair of tendrils, very similar to those shown here. Furthermore, since all three djinn types are somewhat fluid in nature, it’s possible that they can freely alter the form of their limbs to appear either as a second pair of arms or as tendrils as they so choose.

Either way, it requires less of a conceptual redesign for them to be djinn than mursaat… who had about ten black, feathery tendrils.

quote=4737579;Slowpokeking.8720:]

Now you’re deliberately twisting my analogy, especially since I explicitly entered an excuse for the firefighters not to go in.

Let’s generalise it right down to the basics:

Group A rescues Group B from some danger. Then, well after the danger has passed, Group A murders half of Group B due to some characteristic that Group A decides they don’t like.

In any moral or legal system that I would want to be part of, Group A would still be murderers. There may be some reasons why this might be justified, but “they laid eyes on me and I don’t feel that they deserved that honour” is not even close to being one of them.

Pls, do not forget what happened before the rescue

Group B asked Group A for help and said they will decide their fate. Group A showed up and made it clear that only those worthy to see them will live, and Group B’s leader answered with a yes.
[/quote]Good or neutral people do not make bargains which make killing some people a condition of saving the rest.

Saul accepted because the alternative was all of them dying. Accepting a bargain because it was a less bad choice does not change the fact that it is a bargain that only an evil person would have offered in the first place.

draxynnic.3719:

Good or neutral people do not make bargains which make killing some people a condition of saving the rest.

Saul accepted because the alternative was all of them dying. Accepting a bargain because it was a less bad choice does not change the fact that it is a bargain that only an evil person would have offered in the first place.

That does happen sometimes, especially when those people were all going to die if they didn’t help.

If you are so against killing, Balthazar killed Kaolai simply because of anger, that was not even part of the deal, so he is evil?

Yes, it does happen sometimes. That doesn’t mean that a good or neutral person would offer such a deal in the first place. It just means that a good or neutral person might be put in a position where they’re forced to accept such a catch-22 as the lesser of two evils.

The lesser of two evils is still an evil, though.

Regarding Balthazar… this feels like you’re trying to put up a smokescreen, but to address it directly: It certainly wasn’t good…

However, the story doesn’t attempt to portray it as such. Anger and aggression has always been a flaw in Balthazar’s character. It is explicitly described as poor sportsmanship, and Balthazar attempts to make amends later.

While this doesn’t excuse it, an action taken in anger for which the perpetrator expresses remorse afterwards is much more forgivable than cold-blooded, calculated, and remorseless murder. It’s one thing to do the wrong thing in anger and regret it afterwards, it’s quite another to coldly state that you’re going to kill people as the price for your aid and then carry out that promise.

There’s a reason why premeditation is part of the distinction between murder and manslaughter in most legal systems.

(For the record, I consider Balthazar to be, at best, ‘neutral’ on the good-evil axis, possibly even on the evil side – he aspires towards honourable values and regrets his mistakes, but he does seem to resort to killing fairly readily. That said, I do get the impression that he’s learned better since. At worst, though, his way is hot-blooded violence, not cold-blooded murder.)

One possibility is that these mursaat aren’t even physically on Tyria. There could still be a lot of mursaat hiding out in the mists, but perhaps these energy beings we see here are not the mursaat themselves at all. They could be conduits made for them to interact with the material plain of Tyria, without immediately having to go there themselves. After what happened last time maybe they figured this was a safer bet. It would make sense then to have “drones” that are similar in shape and capability to their own bodies, but they don’t have to be exact visual copies.

draxynnic.3719:

Yes, it does happen sometimes. That doesn’t mean that a good or neutral person would offer such a deal in the first place. It just means that a good or neutral person might be put in a position where they’re forced to accept such a catch-22 as the lesser of two evils.

Sometimes they do, especially if we look at real life examples.

Regarding Balthazar… this feels like you’re trying to put up a smokescreen, but to address it directly: It certainly wasn’t good…

However, the story doesn’t attempt to portray it as such. Anger and aggression has always been a flaw in Balthazar’s character. It is explicitly described as poor sportsmanship, and Balthazar attempts to make amends later.

While this doesn’t excuse it, an action taken in anger for which the perpetrator expresses remorse afterwards is much more forgivable than cold-blooded, calculated, and remorseless murder. It’s one thing to do the wrong thing in anger and regret it afterwards, it’s quite another to coldly state that you’re going to kill people as the price for your aid and then carry out that promise.

What anger? He lost a game and it’s worthy for him to kill a good man? That’s no better than so called cold-blooded murder.

There’s a reason why premeditation is part of the distinction between murder and manslaughter in most legal systems.

(For the record, I consider Balthazar to be, at best, ‘neutral’ on the good-evil axis, possibly even on the evil side – he aspires towards honourable values and regrets his mistakes, but he does seem to resort to killing fairly readily. That said, I do get the impression that he’s learned better since. At worst, though, his way is hot-blooded violence, not cold-blooded murder.)

It’s not manslaughter, he knew what he was doing.

Again just like him, we need to look at all of the works of the Mursaat to see are they good or bad, the fact is: They saved many more than they killed. Those people would have been dead without them anyway.

it’s explicitly not cold-blooded though. We can argue that the difference is false and harmful, but there’s a long legal precedence of a distinction.

One thing about the Mursaat is their demeanor as portrayed by the Guildwars universe.

The Mursaat are almost obsessive-compulsive and suffer from the need to complete control everything around them for the sake of their race’s security. I also believe that the Mursaat have a god complex and see themselves as superior to the other races, thus believing they are in a position to freely control other “lesser” races and use them as tools to forward the well being of their own race.

In the past dragon rising, when the other races agreed to give up their magic to the bloodstone to starve the dragons -the Mursaat denied and instead chose to keep their magic any way that they could. They instead left the other races for dead and phased out of reality.

The only factor that caused the Mursaat to return to Tyria was the foretelling of the flameseeker prophecies and the destruction that would be wrought if they were fulfilled.

As you can imagine, an OCD race with a god complex thinking of only self preservation now hears about a PROPHECY that foretells the doom of their entire race.

That is like going into an OCD persons house and tilting every painting on their wall to odd angles. The prophecy is the only reason the Mursaat came to meddle with our world -they were driven by the need to control outside forces that would threaten their “perfect” bubble of self preservation.

Saving Kryta and manipulating humans was just part of that goal. Their technology of soul batteries and mortal sacrifice also speaks to the idea that they view others as tools.

However, at the end of Guildwars 1 something interesting happened to the Mursaat. Despite their meticulous planning and established shadow government to control all of the stimuli that would threaten them, the prophecy still came true and they were completely devastated.

For the surviving Mursaat, who cowered away after the fall of the white mantle in the battle of Lion’s Arch, one would have to think about how this affected their society and what they have been pondering on for the last 200 years.

They may have come to the point of realization that their current means of preservation through manipulation and selfishness has brought them more ruin to themselves rather than cooperation with the other races would have.

I really think they are cowering away in Magumma, terrified of outside influence and a repeat of the destruction they faced at the hands of both the titans and the flame seeker human champions. They probably want nothing to do with the outside world.

But now that Mordremoth is awake and their safeguards are gradually failing. One has to think that as a race that never gave up their magic they would be like filet minion for the dragon.

I kind of hope that this expansion sort of shows a redemption of the Mursaat race. Perhaps in the end they will give up their secrets to fight against the dragon. Perhaps there will be dissension among the Mursaat leaders and public regarding the the idea of isolation may only lead to their destruction.

I can see some Mursaat going to their natural ways of OCD and manipulation (Lazarus the Dire being the embodiment of this and will likely return as an antagonist), but I can also see a shift in their society for those Mursaat who are losing faith in the old ways and starting to realize that they will need to cooperate with other races and share their secrets with us to survive.

please see link:
http://wiki.guildwars.com/images/0/0a/%22Margonite%22_concept_art_1.jpg

r those same thing?

Margonites don’t have much of a reason to be still existing in that form, if at all. (There’s also the question of what they would even be doing there, so far away from Elona and the Realm of Torment) Mursaat are still the most likely candidate because of the location, the helmet design, the symbol on the door, and the colour gold.

Lazaar.9123:

Margonites don’t have much of a reason to be still existing in that form, if at all. (There’s also the question of what they would even be doing there, so far away from Elona and the Realm of Torment) Mursaat are still the most likely candidate because of the location, the helmet design, the symbol on the door, and the colour gold.

Agreed and remember that many skeletons and meshes in Gw1 were reused in the case of Mursaat and Margonites to save programming time and optimize resource use. I do not believe there is any link between Mursaat and Margonites aside from reused models.

The Mursaat had no intention of ever stopping these sacrifices. They would have made these sacrifices until the end of time, which is a very long time. If we hadn’t stopped the mursaat, there would have been no end to the sacrifices. Again, the door was opened and here we are 250 years later, the world didn’t end. The mursaat didn’t save anyone with these sacrifices.

Slowpokeking.8720:

draxynnic.3719:

Yes, it does happen sometimes. That doesn’t mean that a good or neutral person would offer such a deal in the first place. It just means that a good or neutral person might be put in a position where they’re forced to accept such a catch-22 as the lesser of two evils.

Sometimes they do, especially if we look at real life examples.

Really? Show me a historical case of a good person who said “we’ll save you, but we’ll murder half of you afterwards according to some nonsensical criteria”, and I’ll contest your ability to judge a good person.

Not “we only have time to save some of you, so we’ll prioritise” or anything like that. Deliberate, premeditated killing.

About the only time I could see that being justified is when the people to be killed are convicted of a crime where I’m at least willing to consider that the death penalty is justified. I’m sorry, but “Because they saw me and I’m an arrogant kittenhole that believes that only people who I deem to be worthy through some nebulous criteria that has not been revealed should lay eyes on me and live” is not even CLOSE to sufficient.

What anger? He lost a game and it’s worthy for him to kill a good man? That’s no better than so called cold-blooded murder.

Kaolai Monument

When the gods walked Tyria a thousand years ago, the Ritualist Kaolai, an old man even then, challenged Balthazar to a game of Nui in exchange for sparing a village that had offended the god through some long-forgotten breach of etiquette. Balthazar laughingly accepted and the game began. Seven days later it ended with Kaolai the winner; the villagers were spared. But in a fit of anger, Balthazar slew Kaolai. Afterward, in a rare gesture of sportsmanship, the god ordered Kaolai inducted into Tahnnakai Temple.

If you’re going to try to change the subject to avoid having to admit that you’ve lost, at least check your sources. It was clearly done in hot blood and, unlike any mursaat from Prophecies, he sought to make amends afterwards.

Slowpokeking.8720:

Yes, Mursaat and Abaddon were there long before 800 years. She could have had the plan long ago and wait to pick the right time, the right individuals to start it.

And that is what I meant with speculations and theories. While I think we both know what happened. Like I said, it’s an interesting theory, but it doesn’t sound that logical at all.

The flame seeker prophecies were known about for those 800 years. Glint didn’t pick anyone, To be honest, I wouldn’t call it as much as a prophecy because it’s pretty obvious what happened was going to happen.

Door sealed with the souls of innocent people. Some escape, some are chosen while the Mursaat don’t know everything. People will find out about their secrecy.

Meanwhile there’s probably going to be an agent of Abaddon who’s interest is to set his armies free, who is likely to manipulate the chosen to open the door.

Ascension is there with the forgotten magic taking care of the Mursaats veils. There are some seers about still wanting revenge of sorts on the betrayal of the Mursaat.

With all those factors included it’s not that much of a stretch that at some point in the future, this killing of innocent Chosen people is going to be the demise of the Mursaat. And that’s without knowing any other information Glint might have.

Especially as Abaddon is still influencing some humans, all the while the other gods are giving their blessing to most of the other humans.

Meaning that the battle between the gods was going to submerge again between the followers, meaning that the gate was going to open by one of those Abaddon followers, and that other (blessed) humans were going to close it again.

Of course over the years it might have become a flameseeker prophecy, but I bet at the time it might as well be a warning to the mursaat that they’re being incredibly stupid to make enemies of parts of the human race, as they are being blessed by the Six gods.

FrizzFreston.5290:

If the seal was there for the entire time, “needing” Chosen for it to stay on or what not, then that is alot of people. So I really doubt that’s the case, as it would mean that right now that Door would still be open as there’s no one killing any chosen to keep it shut.

There is no need to keep killing Chosen because the soul batteries are fully charged with the soul of the Lich, who was killed on the Bloodstone.

BrettM.9062:

FrizzFreston.5290:

If the seal was there for the entire time, “needing” Chosen for it to stay on or what not, then that is alot of people. So I really doubt that’s the case, as it would mean that right now that Door would still be open as there’s no one killing any chosen to keep it shut.

There is no need to keep killing Chosen because the soul batteries are fully charged with the soul of the Lich, who was killed on the Bloodstone.

Yeah, but batteries are batteries. They do run out. Otherwise why kill the chosen every time and not only “whenever the batteries run out.” That, and why is the Vizier Khilborns soul able to charge them all up while previously they needed X chosen in order to recharge? Is it linked to the amount of magicalpower a soul possesses? Aren’t Chosen also imbued with this magic? So many questions, so much testing to do! We totally need to send an Asura or Priory krewe to the Door of Komalie in order to fully understand this.

Of course I understand that a few years after we killed Abaddon, but I personally don’t believe that that automatically would mean that there’s nothing evil behind that door. Unless Kormir did a full makeover to the realm of Torment/Secrets. Which I really doubt she managed that, as I recall even Grenth and Balthazar were struggling in keeping their respective realms clean.

FrizzFreston.5290:

BrettM.9062:

FrizzFreston.5290:

If the seal was there for the entire time, “needing” Chosen for it to stay on or what not, then that is alot of people. So I really doubt that’s the case, as it would mean that right now that Door would still be open as there’s no one killing any chosen to keep it shut.

There is no need to keep killing Chosen because the soul batteries are fully charged with the soul of the Lich, who was killed on the Bloodstone.

Yeah, but batteries are batteries. They do run out. Otherwise why kill the chosen every time and not only “whenever the batteries run out.” That, and why is the Vizier Khilborns soul able to charge them all up while previously they needed X chosen in order to recharge? Is it linked to the amount of magicalpower a soul possesses? Aren’t Chosen also imbued with this magic? So many questions, so much testing to do! We totally need to send an Asura or Priory krewe to the Door of Komalie in order to fully understand this.

Of course I understand that a few years after we killed Abaddon, but I personally don’t believe that that automatically would mean that there’s nothing evil behind that door. Unless Kormir did a full makeover to the realm of Torment/Secrets. Which I really doubt she managed that, as I recall even Grenth and Balthazar were struggling in keeping their respective realms clean.

Kormir didn’t have to clean the whole Realm of Torment – the Door of Khomalie lead to Foundry of Failed Creation, and it was cleared by players and the Forgotten, so no more Titans = no need to keep DoK shut with Soul Batteries, even if the Soul of the Lich will run out.

I seriously doubt we took out every single tormented creature in there. But yeah, we did take out the major threats, so maybe it is safe. I suppose, that if the batteries ran out we would’ve seen something happen by now.

Then again, you could say the players also cleared the Underworld and Fissure of Woe and still there’s that Shadow Behemoth there. I’m really not so sure if we can say 100% sure there’s nothing dangerous there, because 250 years ago the players cleared it.

One thing is for sure, nothing has come through the Door just yet as far as we have noticed.

EDIT: There’s at least some remnants of Mallyx in the mists, otherwise the Revenants can’t channel his powers.

draxynnic.3719:

Really? Show me a historical case of a good person who said “we’ll save you, but we’ll murder half of you afterwards according to some nonsensical criteria”, and I’ll contest your ability to judge a good person.

Not “we only have time to save some of you, so we’ll prioritise” or anything like that. Deliberate, premeditated killing.

About the only time I could see that being justified is when the people to be killed are convicted of a crime where I’m at least willing to consider that the death penalty is justified. I’m sorry, but “Because they saw me and I’m an arrogant kittenhole that believes that only people who I deem to be worthy through some nebulous criteria that has not been revealed should lay eyes on me and live” is not even CLOSE to sufficient.

In history, a lot of heroes have the blood of innocents on their hand. Admit it or not, it happens all the time and we don’t say they are evil because overall, they saved more than killed.

I know that, so lost a game is enough to make him angry and kill someone? How is it not evil?

narwhalsbend.7059:

Also, why would the Mursaat decide to stick around this time after they found out how to hide last time? It makes no sense for it to be Mursaat.

Maybe because they found it was easier to go in to hiding than come out of it? I didn’t play GW1 but didn’t they require a bunch of soft-headed schlumps on this side of the hidey-hole to help them return last time?

FrizzFreston.5290:

And that is what I meant with speculations and theories. While I think we both know what happened. Like I said, it’s an interesting theory, but it doesn’t sound that logical at all.

The flame seeker prophecies were known about for those 800 years. Glint didn’t pick anyone, To be honest, I wouldn’t call it as much as a prophecy because it’s pretty obvious what happened was going to happen.

Door sealed with the souls of innocent people. Some escape, some are chosen while the Mursaat don’t know everything. People will find out about their secrecy.

Meanwhile there’s probably going to be an agent of Abaddon who’s interest is to set his armies free, who is likely to manipulate the chosen to open the door.

Ascension is there with the forgotten magic taking care of the Mursaats veils. There are some seers about still wanting revenge of sorts on the betrayal of the Mursaat.

With all those factors included it’s not that much of a stretch that at some point in the future, this killing of innocent Chosen people is going to be the demise of the Mursaat. And that’s without knowing any other information Glint might have.

Especially as Abaddon is still influencing some humans, all the while the other gods are giving their blessing to most of the other humans.

Meaning that the battle between the gods was going to submerge again between the followers, meaning that the gate was going to open by one of those Abaddon followers, and that other (blessed) humans were going to close it again.

Of course over the years it might have become a flameseeker prophecy, but I bet at the time it might as well be a warning to the mursaat that they’re being incredibly stupid to make enemies of parts of the human race, as they are being blessed by the Six gods.

You are the Chosen I have been waiting for. While you’ve been in the desert, the rest of the world has changed. Let me show you. As you know, those who you once called friends have become enemies.

Yes, she did pick us to fulfill it.

What? They could not escape unless the seal is broken, your theory failed in the beginning.

FrizzFreston.5290:

I seriously doubt we took out every single tormented creature in there. But yeah, we did take out the major threats, so maybe it is safe. I suppose, that if the batteries ran out we would’ve seen something happen by now.

Then again, you could say the players also cleared the Underworld and Fissure of Woe and still there’s that Shadow Behemoth there. I’m really not so sure if we can say 100% sure there’s nothing dangerous there, because 250 years ago the players cleared it.

One thing is for sure, nothing has come through the Door just yet as far as we have noticed.

EDIT: There’s at least some remnants of Mallyx in the mists, otherwise the Revenants can’t channel his powers.

We don’t need to clean out everything, we just need to clear out the foundry to make sure the demons can’t make more Titans.

FrizzFreston.5290:

I seriously doubt we took out every single tormented creature in there. But yeah, we did take out the major threats, so maybe it is safe. I suppose, that if the batteries ran out we would’ve seen something happen by now.

Then again, you could say the players also cleared the Underworld and Fissure of Woe and still there’s that Shadow Behemoth there. I’m really not so sure if we can say 100% sure there’s nothing dangerous there, because 250 years ago the players cleared it.

One thing is for sure, nothing has come through the Door just yet as far as we have noticed.

EDIT: There’s at least some remnants of Mallyx in the mists, otherwise the Revenants can’t channel his powers.

Even if a titan or 100 lived, the volcano exploded, remember? And even if the gate wasn’t destroyed, without the Lich sending them out through portals, they are kinda stuck on Fire Islands.

Slowpokeking.8720:

In history, a lot of heroes have the blood of innocents on their hand. Admit it or not, it happens all the time and we don’t say they are evil because overall, they saved more than killed.

Want to name some so we can look at the specifics?

Being a hero, even being a hero on the “right” side, does not make someone good. A lot of the Greek heroes, for instance, are selfish kittens. And a lot of cases where a hero has the blood of innocents on their hands, it’s because it was unavoidable “collateral damage” in achieving some important goal, or they weren’t fully in control of themselves for one reason or another, or a case of “can’t save everyone”.

Not killing someone out of cold blood because you have the arrogance to believe they don’t deserve the honour of seeing you and living.

I know that, so lost a game is enough to make him angry and kill someone? How is it not evil?

Isolated instance, while he was not fully in control of his senses, which I have already acknowledged as a flaw in his personality and not having been the right thing to do… which he showed remorse for afterwards.

Stop trying to change the subject. To use a legal cliche: Balthazar is not on trial here.

Slowpokeking.8720:

What? They could not escape unless the seal is broken, your theory failed in the beginning.

I just mean, that at some point an agent of Abaddon would’ve been able to unseal it through the use of other Chosen or another way. That’s how it was going to be no matter what.

Either way, it wouldn’t be sealed if Glint hadn’t made the prophecies by your theory. You said it yourself, the mursaat didn’t close of the gate with Chosen souls until they actually heard of the prophecies.

Which means Glint was going to be the bad guy either way if you look at it like that.
No prophecies? -> Titans break free.
Prophecies -> Titans break free according to plan and get resealed

One thing I noticed was in the video there were 3 Mursaat….isnt there technically only supposed to be one left?

Shining Blade intelligence knew of eight at the time of War in Kryta, of which seven were killed as part of that content.

However, they likely got this intel from the White Mantle – any mursaat that had no connection to the White Mantle would probably have remained unknown to the Shining Blade.

roachsrealm.9284:

I’ll just be happy to be on the friendly side of Spectral Agony for once..

but just because they are allies doesnt mean we won’t have to fight them as well. (nightmare court, blood legion, etc)

Oh god, the Agony… war flashbacks

That is a good point.

draxynnic.3719:

Want to name some so we can look at the specifics?

Being a hero, even being a hero on the “right” side, does not make someone good. A lot of the Greek heroes, for instance, are selfish kittens. And a lot of cases where a hero has the blood of innocents on their hands, it’s because it was unavoidable “collateral damage” in achieving some important goal, or they weren’t fully in control of themselves for one reason or another, or a case of “can’t save everyone”.

Not killing someone out of cold blood because you have the arrogance to believe they don’t deserve the honour of seeing you and living.

Cesar, Augustus, Alexander the Greater, Napoleon and a bunch more. Even if we look at the Greek heroes, Odysseus and a bunch of heroes caused a whole nation to be sacked, thousands of innocents became slaves or properties.

]Isolated instance, while he was not fully in control of his senses, which I have already acknowledged as a flaw in his personality and not having been the right thing to do… which he showed remorse for afterwards.

Stop trying to change the subject. To use a legal cliche: Balthazar is not on trial here.

It’s not an excuse, he’s a mature god with power, it is his responsibility to control his temper and not to use his power in the wrong way.

FrizzFreston.5290:

I just mean, that at some point an agent of Abaddon would’ve been able to unseal it through the use of other Chosen or another way. That’s how it was going to be no matter what.

Either way, it wouldn’t be sealed if Glint hadn’t made the prophecies by your theory. You said it yourself, the mursaat didn’t close of the gate with Chosen souls until they actually heard of the prophecies.

Which means Glint was going to be the bad guy either way if you look at it like that.
No prophecies? -> Titans break free.
Prophecies -> Titans break free according to plan and get resealed

Wait wait wait, if Glint never made the Prophecy, why would the Mursaat kill chosen? Glint’s fault was not about Chosen, but to “guide” us to release the Titans.

Slowpokeking.8720:

draxynnic.3719:

Want to name some so we can look at the specifics?

Being a hero, even being a hero on the “right” side, does not make someone good. A lot of the Greek heroes, for instance, are selfish kittens. And a lot of cases where a hero has the blood of innocents on their hands, it’s because it was unavoidable “collateral damage” in achieving some important goal, or they weren’t fully in control of themselves for one reason or another, or a case of “can’t save everyone”.

Not killing someone out of cold blood because you have the arrogance to believe they don’t deserve the honour of seeing you and living.

Cesar, Augustus, Alexander the Greater, Napoleon and a bunch more. Even if we look at the Greek heroes, Odysseus and a bunch of heroes caused a whole nation to be sacked, thousands of innocents became slaves or properties.

]Isolated instance, while he was not fully in control of his senses, which I have already acknowledged as a flaw in his personality and not having been the right thing to do… which he showed remorse for afterwards.

Stop trying to change the subject. To use a legal cliche: Balthazar is not on trial here.

It’s not an excuse, he’s a mature god with power, it is his responsibility to control his temper and not to use his power in the wrong way.

Kings and Emperors aren’t heroes, unless they’re Conan (who, tragically for us all, is fictional).

The Greek heroes are interesting comparison, but they’re both coming from a different cultural milieu and are often intentionally flawed. Odysseus and Agamemnon were both explicitly punished by the gods for the crap they pulled.

Precisely. Note how I also said that most of the Greek heroes are selfish kittenholes?

From what I recall, Odysseus came up with the Trojan Horse but tried to limit the excesses the other Greeks pulled, and like Windsagio said, pretty much all the “heroes” of the sack of Troy had karmic punishments of one form or another.

Ceasar, Augustus, Alexander the Great, and Napoleon are all controversial figures that, with the possible exception of Ceasar, many people regard as villains… and even in Ceasar’s case, few would call him a shining paragon of virtue.

On the Balthazar thing: Your point being? I have repeated multiple times that it was the wrong thing to do. Regardless of whether you apply the label “evil” to it, however, one murder in hot blood for which remorse is shown is far less evil than multiple murders committed in cold blood for which no remorse, as far as we know, has been shown.

So, by your repeated insistence that Balthazar is evil due to that act, I conclude that you have conceded that the more evil act of Optimus Caliph and his cronies means that they must also be evil.

Slowpokeking.8720:

FrizzFreston.5290:

I just mean, that at some point an agent of Abaddon would’ve been able to unseal it through the use of other Chosen or another way. That’s how it was going to be no matter what.

Either way, it wouldn’t be sealed if Glint hadn’t made the prophecies by your theory. You said it yourself, the mursaat didn’t close of the gate with Chosen souls until they actually heard of the prophecies.

Which means Glint was going to be the bad guy either way if you look at it like that.
No prophecies? -> Titans break free.
Prophecies -> Titans break free according to plan and get resealed

Wait wait wait, if Glint never made the Prophecy, why would the Mursaat kill chosen? Glint’s fault was not about Chosen, but to “guide” us to release the Titans.

No exactly. What I meant was, what would happen if Glint didn’t make the prophecies? (Whether she saw this as some future or of her own device I’ll leave in the middle) Wouldn’t that mean, that the door wouldn’t be guarded at all?

I See No Tomorrow.7302:

That city has a mursaat symbol on the door, by the way. Or at least the White Mantle symbol. If they’re not mursaat, then they’re white mantle who transformed themselves into what they thought the mursaat looked like.

But to be quite honest, I’m pretty sure they’re a mursaat redesign. They don’t look like Djinn, Margonites don’t look like that and wouldn’t make any sense, Seers have four arms, Forgotten are upright snakes with four arms that don’t wear armor or clothing, etc etc. Despite their new appearance I’m fairly certain they’re mursaat.

But they don’t resemble mursaat any more than they do those others.

Morfedel.4165:

I See No Tomorrow.7302:

That city has a mursaat symbol on the door, by the way. Or at least the White Mantle symbol. If they’re not mursaat, then they’re white mantle who transformed themselves into what they thought the mursaat looked like.

But to be quite honest, I’m pretty sure they’re a mursaat redesign. They don’t look like Djinn, Margonites don’t look like that and wouldn’t make any sense, Seers have four arms, Forgotten are upright snakes with four arms that don’t wear armor or clothing, etc etc. Despite their new appearance I’m fairly certain they’re mursaat.

But they don’t resemble mursaat any more than they do those others.

They resemble mursaat a crapton more than they resemble Seers or Forgotten due to basic body types.

Matgonites and Djinn are fairly safely out too, being Elona stuff and having absolutely nothing to do with the meguuma area or the dragons (whereas the mursaat have to do with both).

Windsagio.1340:

They resemble mursaat a crapton more than they resemble Seers or Forgotten due to basic body types.

Matgonites and Djinn are fairly safely out too, being Elona stuff and having absolutely nothing to do with the meguuma area or the dragons (whereas the mursaat have to do with both).

Well, Glint, the zephyrites originated from the crystal desert which is fairly close to Elona. And the Master of Peace was heading to the jungle as well for some reason. (Which I still don’t understand)

FrizzFreston.5290:

Windsagio.1340:

They resemble mursaat a crapton more than they resemble Seers or Forgotten due to basic body types.

Matgonites and Djinn are fairly safely out too, being Elona stuff and having absolutely nothing to do with the meguuma area or the dragons (whereas the mursaat have to do with both).

Well, Glint, the zephyrites originated from the crystal desert which is fairly close to Elona. And the Master of Peace was heading to the jungle as well for some reason. (Which I still don’t understand)

she didn’t originated from crystal desert she just had lair there “meanwhile”

we cannot know were Glint originated except the simple only fact that she originated from an elder dragon Kralkatorrik

and in the jungle was: Mordy, confirmed bloodstone (at least used to be somewhere there), the remnants of Mursaat – ancient POWERFULL race
(they probably have somekind of stuff that can make using egg even possible)

the reasons are plenty

FrizzFreston.5290:

And the Master of Peace was heading to the jungle as well for some reason. (Which I still don’t understand)

At first glance, it would seem counterproductive to take the egg closer to Mordremoth (or any Elder Dragon). Me, I’d probably take it to Orr, since Zhaitan is dead. Too bad the Master of Peace didn’t live long enough to give us instructions and didn’t fill in either his other masters or Ogden on the plan just in case. Poor planning! Wouldn’t it be interesting, though, if he was taking it to the mursaat or some remnant of the forgotten hidden in the Maguuma?

I’m more interested in Caithe’s angle. I keep thinking about how she didn’t know precisely what her Wyld Hunt would be, though she was sure she’d know it when she saw it. I also keep thinking about that conversation in the memory of the conference of the firstborn, where it was suggested that it was possible for a sylvari to misinterpret his/her dream and Wyld Hunt. Could it be that her Wyld Hunt was triggered by the egg, but she has misinterpreted it and is unknowingly making a tragic mistake?

Lord Trejgon.2809:

she didn’t originated from crystal desert she just had lair there “meanwhile”

we cannot know were Glint originated except the simple only fact that she originated from an elder dragon Kralkatorrik

and in the jungle was: Mordy, confirmed bloodstone (at least used to be somewhere there), the remnants of Mursaat – ancient POWERFULL race
(they probably have somekind of stuff that can make using egg even possible)

the reasons are plenty

Well, yeah, I guess she didn’t specifically originate from there other than the whole lair being in a grain of sand, in which case it could’ve been anywhere. But her Lair was there, and as such the forgotten etc. Plus if the zephyrites were able to move around their whole ship with Glint’s magic, it’s not that hard to assume other ancient races were able to travel around the world quite fast as well.

Of course, the reasons are plenty, I just meant to say that it’s not completely impossible either way. Even though most logical thinking would assume it’s mursaat.

I don’t count the bloodstone and or mordy a reason for the Mursaat to still linger there. Who knows, maybe they even moved the bloodstone, if that’s even possible at all.

@BrettM Yeah, all the missing ends make me pretty excited and curious about what is to come, regardless in what form they are making it.

Lutinz.6915:

Everthing …

Agreed. Whats more, the Mursaat have been traitors right from the beginning of times: According to GW1 Wiki, they are an ‘ancient, TERRIBLE race of spellcasters’. Mursaat took the stage during the pre-human / pre-God era as one of the ‘elder races’ (the other: Seer, Forgotten, Dwarfs, Jotun). The Mursaat could use their magic to slip beneath the skin of the World (more: its the only race who can practice all four disciplines of magic simultaneously). And this is what they did when the very first Bloodstone was created to seal all magic away from the Elder Dragons. The Elder Races agreed to give their magic to the Seers, who would seal it within a Bloodstone, starving the Dragons. All races … besides the Mursaat. Instead, they flew into the mists and took their magic with them.

Windsagio.1340:

Morfedel.4165:

I See No Tomorrow.7302:

That city has a mursaat symbol on the door, by the way. Or at least the White Mantle symbol. If they’re not mursaat, then they’re white mantle who transformed themselves into what they thought the mursaat looked like.

But to be quite honest, I’m pretty sure they’re a mursaat redesign. They don’t look like Djinn, Margonites don’t look like that and wouldn’t make any sense, Seers have four arms, Forgotten are upright snakes with four arms that don’t wear armor or clothing, etc etc. Despite their new appearance I’m fairly certain they’re mursaat.

But they don’t resemble mursaat any more than they do those others.

They resemble mursaat a crapton more than they resemble Seers or Forgotten due to basic body types.

Matgonites and Djinn are fairly safely out too, being Elona stuff and having absolutely nothing to do with the meguuma area or the dragons (whereas the mursaat have to do with both).

The resemblance is superficial I believe. Look at the radial fins off the mursaat. I just went and looked at their pictures. They have 14.

These off the trailer do not. I think it was 4-6, but certainly not 14. Additionally, the story of GW1 indicates that the race did not survive the events surrounding the game.

That being the case, however, I won’t argue the fact that they GW2 design team could have taken artistic license here and changed the design, or perhaps the mursaat evolved; and they could certainly come up with some artistic license with the story to explain how the mursaat survived, too.

But I think it isn’t as obvious that these are mursaat as some are claiming. Possible? Sure. But certainly not a given. There are too many discrepancies to account for without the explanation of the aforementioned artistic license.

In the new trailer released on the IGN special interview, you can see more of the ruins which are definitely Mursaat architecture.

I’d have to replay the Ring of Fire missions to be sure, but it doesn’t really have a definitive resemblance to the mursaat architecture we’ve seen previously to me. It DOES look a lot like the Tarnished Coast ruins from GW1, but we never did get any solid confirmation that they were built by the mursaat.

Lazaar.9123:

In the new trailer released on the IGN special interview, you can see more of the ruins which are definitely Mursaat architecture.

No, they aren’t definitely mursaat. Heck, we don’t really know what mursaat architecture looks like. Recall, the mursaat were behaving as gods to the white mantle; it was the white mantle / krytan architecture we saw. We were seeing human cities, not mursaat structures.

for that matter, people talked about Rata Sum being mursaat, but the devs finally came out and said it WASN’T, regardless of the fact Rata sum is an anagram.

Note, I’m not saying they AREN’T mursaat. I’m saying we cannot definitely say it IS either; as another poster mentioned above, we see all kinds of maguuma ruins that it resembles that COULD be mursaat, but we don’t really know for sure.

If I were to only go on what we know from the Living Story, and if I had NOT seen what these “new allies” look like, I would assume they are The Forgotton.

Physically, they closely resemble the mursaat, yes, and I am not ruling that out, but there’s so many of you focused on the physical appearance of these “new allies” without putting any consideration into more basic facts. Lets take a look at some things we can safely say we know so far:

-The Living Story has brought up the Forgotton and related subjects multiple times since season 2 started.

-Our vision from the Pale Tree showed golden towers, like the architecture we see in the HoT trailer. Taking Glint’s egg to the Forgotton makes tons of sense, since they are protectors of Glint’s legacy just as the zephyrites were. The mursaat would probably despise the egg as it comes from the dragon who prophesied their downfall.

-Based on their past history, it seems very unlikely that the mursaat would ally themselves with the rest of Tyria. The Forgotten served Glint. They are more likely allies.

-The Forgotton are said to have come from the Mists, and as such would be great candidates for teaching the revenant profession to Rytlock. The mursaat have no connection to the Mists.

-Most importantly, the door to Caithe’s hiding spot with all the golden architecture (and likely, the entrance to the new areas in the expansion) was kept shut by a Forgotton seal. A Forgotton city protected by a Forgotton seal makes plenty of sense. A Mursaat city protected by a Forgotton seal does not.

If we disregard their physical appearance, it would seem most logically that these “new allies” are indeed the Forgotten in some form. I don’t think Arena-net would radically change their design without good reason, which leads me to believe these allies aren’t literally the Forgotton … or rather, not in the way we’re used to thinking of them. Perhaps they are some kind of avatar for the Forgotton to speak to us from the Mists, or constructs built by them that house their memories. We do know that they are a very ancient race with powerful magic … because we know so little about them, practically anything is possible.

Ausfer.1853:

If I were to only go on what we know from the Living Story, and if I had NOT seen what these “new allies” look like, I would assume they are The Forgotton.

Physically, they closely resemble the mursaat, yes, and I am not ruling that out, but there’s so many of you focused on the physical appearance of these “new allies” without putting any consideration into more basic facts. Lets take a look at some things we can safely say we know so far:

-The Living Story has brought up the Forgotton and related subjects multiple times since season 2 started.

-Our vision from the Pale Tree showed golden towers, like the architecture we see in the HoT trailer. Taking Glint’s egg to the Forgotton makes tons of sense, since they are protectors of Glint’s legacy just as the zephyrites were. The mursaat would probably despise the egg as it comes from the dragon who prophesied their downfall.

-Based on their past history, it seems very unlikely that the mursaat would ally themselves with the rest of Tyria. The Forgotten served Glint. They are more likely allies.

-The Forgotton are said to have come from the Mists, and as such would be great candidates for teaching the revenant profession to Rytlock. The mursaat have no connection to the Mists.

-Most importantly, the door to Caithe’s hiding spot with all the golden architecture (and likely, the entrance to the new areas in the expansion) was kept shut by a Forgotton seal. A Forgotton city protected by a Forgotton seal makes plenty of sense. A Mursaat city protected by a Forgotton seal does not.

If we disregard their physical appearance, it would seem most logically that these “new allies” are indeed the Forgotten in some form. I don’t think Arena-net would radically change their design without good reason, which leads me to believe these allies aren’t literally the Forgotton … or rather, not in the way we’re used to thinking of them. Perhaps they are some kind of avatar for the Forgotton to speak to us from the Mists, or constructs built by them that house their memories. We do know that they are a very ancient race with powerful magic … because we know so little about them, practically anything is possible.

These could be the Seers…

Or whatever culture we were going to encounter in Utopia… which with the word play, is some form of Musaat or otherwise unseen group.

Ausfer.1853:

If I were to only go on what we know from the Living Story, and if I had NOT seen what these “new allies” look like, I would assume they are The Forgotton.

I like the way you think, but I’ve always been more curious about the forgotten than the mursaat. If I could have one HoT wish, it would be to finally learn what their race was called before it was forgotten.

It wouldn’t surprise me if Rytlock ended up in Kormir’s realm. Bunch of forgotten there the last we saw of it, a big library, a goddess of Knowledge … what better place to learn a new profession?