Guild Wars 2

Djinn.9245:

I don’t have 4-stat gear and it takes time to get Elite specializations. You can either go back to core Tyria and get your Elite specs the long way, or suffer through HoT to get them.

Neither do I, I use good ol’ Berserker stats. As for getting the Elite specs, that could only have been a problem very early after the release. After that, there are plenty of well-known easy HPs, there are HP trains that don’t even require you to have waypoints, and there’s map chat and players who always come to help with HPs. I spend ~90% of my play time on my main yet I have 9 alts, one of each class, and elite specs unlocked on every one of them. It’s not even hard. Calling it “suffering” is just exaggerating.

Djinn.9245:

Many of us are specifically stating that we wanted more of the same, including my post you are quoting, so idk who you are talking about.

For many other players (myself included) who didn’t just want more of the same. FYI, I returned to the game after HoT launched.

Djinn.9245:

So I should “learn to like it” like its brocolli or something? This is a game – you know, entertainment? If I don’t like it why should I play it? And of course it is Anet’s fault, they made HoT. If a book is not good, it is the author’s fault, not the reader’s.

Sure, if you genuinely don’t like it you shouldn’t play it. Note that you can still play in core Tyria. However, there are other (again, myself included) who genuinely do like HoT. So your assessment that it’s “not good” cannot be objectively true. Meaning ANet didn’t to something objectively wrong. At best It’s a problem of perception. Maybe it’s simply not for you. But hey, it’s a game! Playing all aspects of it isn’t mandatory. I don’t like PvP and I don’t play it. But I don’t complain about ANet putting it in the game.

Feanor.2358:

Djinn.9245:

I don’t have 4-stat gear and it takes time to get Elite specializations. You can either go back to core Tyria and get your Elite specs the long way, or suffer through HoT to get them.

Neither do I, I use good ol’ Berserker stats. As for getting the Elite specs, that could only have been a problem very early after the release. After that, there are plenty of well-known easy HPs, there are HP trains that don’t even require you to have waypoints, and there’s map chat and players who always come to help with HPs. I spend ~90% of my play time on my main yet I have 9 alts, one of each class, and elite specs unlocked on every one of them. It’s not even hard. Calling it “suffering” is just exaggerating.

When I am in HoT, I frequently see people in chat asking for help with HP who get no response. I know that they get no response, even private, because a few minutes later they ask again, and again. I also haven’t seen any HP trains advertised in a long time.

Feanor.2358:

Djinn.9245:

So I should “learn to like it” like its brocolli or something? This is a game – you know, entertainment? If I don’t like it why should I play it? And of course it is Anet’s fault, they made HoT. If a book is not good, it is the author’s fault, not the reader’s.

Sure, if you genuinely don’t like it you shouldn’t play it. Note that you can still play in core Tyria. However, there are other (again, myself included) who genuinely do like HoT. So your assessment that it’s “not good” cannot be objectively true. Meaning ANet didn’t to something objectively wrong. At best It’s a problem of perception. Maybe it’s simply not for you. But hey, it’s a game! Playing all aspects of it isn’t mandatory. I don’t like PvP and I don’t play it. But I don’t complain about ANet putting it in the game.

I never said that HoT was “not good”, I said I didn’t like it. I made the “not good” reference in my statement about a book not being good. But why are you telling me not to complain? People have complained about a lot of things in this game that Anet have changed as a result. So complaining is a perfectly valid form of showing your opinion.

Djinn.9245:

Feanor.2358:

Djinn.9245:

I don’t have 4-stat gear and it takes time to get Elite specializations. You can either go back to core Tyria and get your Elite specs the long way, or suffer through HoT to get them.

Neither do I, I use good ol’ Berserker stats. As for getting the Elite specs, that could only have been a problem very early after the release. After that, there are plenty of well-known easy HPs, there are HP trains that don’t even require you to have waypoints, and there’s map chat and players who always come to help with HPs. I spend ~90% of my play time on my main yet I have 9 alts, one of each class, and elite specs unlocked on every one of them. It’s not even hard. Calling it “suffering” is just exaggerating.

When I am in HoT, I frequently see people in chat asking for help with HP who get no response. I know that they get no response, even private, because a few minutes later they ask again, and again. I also haven’t seen any HP trains advertised in a long time.

Feanor.2358:

Djinn.9245:

So I should “learn to like it” like its brocolli or something? This is a game – you know, entertainment? If I don’t like it why should I play it? And of course it is Anet’s fault, they made HoT. If a book is not good, it is the author’s fault, not the reader’s.

Sure, if you genuinely don’t like it you shouldn’t play it. Note that you can still play in core Tyria. However, there are other (again, myself included) who genuinely do like HoT. So your assessment that it’s “not good” cannot be objectively true. Meaning ANet didn’t to something objectively wrong. At best It’s a problem of perception. Maybe it’s simply not for you. But hey, it’s a game! Playing all aspects of it isn’t mandatory. I don’t like PvP and I don’t play it. But I don’t complain about ANet putting it in the game.

I never said that HoT was “not good”, I said I didn’t like it. I made the “not good” reference in my statement about a book not being good. But why are you telling me not to complain? People have complained about a lot of things in this game that Anet have changed as a result. So complaining is a perfectly valid form of showing your opinion.

Seems to me you must be in those maps at different times than I am, because I find people doing hero points in groups quite frequently.

At the moment of this posting there is an advertised HP train in both VB and AB.

And it’s pretty early in the morning by US standards.

Djinn.9245:

But why are you telling me not to complain?

Because it seems you expect the whole game to cater to your own tastes, and that’s unrealistic.

Poisonedpawn.7085:

New to guild wars 2. Been playing the last week leveling up a warrior through the main story line and base game. I was having a blast, great story line and fun interactions. I even enjoyed the new take on some of the quests and how you could do a quest a few different ways. Last night I gave Zhaitan a beat down and was hyped to jump into the next story line and expansion. I had NO problems at all through the main game.

Then today happened. I get into the new heart of thorns zones and right away the first thing that hit me is how GOD AWEFUL and annoying the layout and design of the zone was. this set a horrible tone. I get that it was trying to force the use of the glider and whatever bogus mushroom crap is in the game but it was FAR too forced. Its more annoying than its fun.

I start up my SOLO play story line. Let me say this again.. SOLO PLAY Story line. To find out that not only do the NPCs get absolutely annihilated leaving you alone to fight 15+ mobs, but you yourself get zerg gibbed in 2 seconds. Yes i dodged, Yes i tried to avoid everything. At some point you have to try and hit them and thats when you get gibbed.

After dying and grinding my way through a few solo missions and getting to the point where I had to defend the frog village only to once again have every single npc dead within seconds and dying over and over i gave up.

The SOLO PLAY story line is simply not designed properly. Its garbage. And thats it for me, I was COMPLETELY enjoying the game .. right up until the expansion. Solo play is just not balanced properly.

I always wondered why more people dont play this game. Now i know.

I would really focus on getting gliding and jumping mushrooms. It makes traversing the new zones very easy.

A big thing to note about HoT content is that the difficulty is much higher than the classic game’s content. Play more defensively, observe the monsters, and stay on your toes. Most mobs have general weaknesses or signature moves that can be utilized/avoided to defeat them. For example, smokescales tend to do a bunch of attacks while teleporting around you. A good way to deal with this can be equipping an offhand shield to block that attack or double dodge through the attack.

Zhaitan is considered one of the most laughably easy fights in this entire game, and the fight is also considered to be the biggest let down in Guild Wars 2 history. Don’t base the difficulty of the game off of one terribly designed fight.

Most players love unlocking gliding, sorry you haven’t enjoyed it. Once you’ve unlocked the entire mastery path for gliding, you can glide indefinitely without falling once you’re out of stamina. It’s really enhanced the entire game, and you can even glide in older zones. I wouldn’t knock it until you put some effort into mastering it.

Vayne.8563:

Djinn.9245:

Blue.2734:

Wow, not a very nice person, are you? When you are lost and trying to figure out where you are and where you need to be takes a few minutes and the spawn rate is pretty high for mobs. It is so nice to see there are still the elitist that think their mean and not helpful things to say are okay and just for the record, I have played it, although not as high as some I have seen my mastery level is 23 all zones open with completion between 57 to 96%. If you have nothing nice to say, then please say nothing at all.

No, that was not a very nice post. I’m not going to respond to it in case it gets removed.

I agree that mobs in HoT are very deadly. Anyone who thinks that mobs in core Tyria are anywhere near as bad (in general) are just not truthful.

Yep mobs in HoT are harder. There are snipers who will kill you with a red line of death fired from their bows. But there’s also a target that appears over you when that’s happening that lets you know it’s coming and if you move sideways, it will always miss you.

There’s smokescale who do a ton of damage and can’t seem to be hit at all. Unless you learn to back out of their circle of smoke, where they can’t be hit, and let them come to you, in which case they still do a lot of damage, but they die very quickly.

And yes, there are pocket raptors which do a lot of damage, but die quickly to AOE and there are a ton of them around to rally on.

Creatures in HOT are harder, but most of them do have a strategy to deal with them. It takes a bit of patience to learn the strategy.

The hardest stuff in HoT for most people are probably the frogs that create poison circles. Shadow leapers are better to attack from close range (and jump away from you), and blade dancers are better to attack from range. Just be conscious of the poison and move out of it as fast as possible.

Having condition removal is helpful as well.

HoT is harder, but it’s just a matter of knowing your enemy. In the mean time there should be somewhere in the game where you’re fighting a powerful foe like an elder dragon that just destroyed the entire pact fleet, where you feel like you’re in some kind of danger at some point.

All of this.

HoT mobs are designed to be more difficult, but are also designed to reward paying attention to your surroundings and to the mobs themselves.

I would LOVE to see HoT mob style encounters in core Tyria maps.

Ashen.2907:

HoT mobs are designed to be more difficult, but are also designed to reward paying attention to your surroundings and to the mobs themselves.

I would LOVE to see HoT mob style encounters in core Tyria maps.

How do HoT mobs “reward” paying attention to your surroundings?

Obviously HoT maps are more difficult to move around and the mobs are more difficult to deal with. For those seeking difficulty, I guess HoT is more rewarding. However, this thread is about how GW2 was a more laid-back MMO for 3 years and how many of us who actually played it for those 3 years are disappointed in the expansion.

I can understand new players who enjoy a challenge joining GW2 because of HoT. What I can’t understand is why anyone who preferred a higher difficulty would play GW2 for the first 3 years as it was.

Djinn.9245:

Ashen.2907:

HoT mobs are designed to be more difficult, but are also designed to reward paying attention to your surroundings and to the mobs themselves.

I would LOVE to see HoT mob style encounters in core Tyria maps.

How do HoT mobs “reward” paying attention to your surroundings?

Obviously HoT maps are more difficult to move around and the mobs are more difficult to deal with. For those seeking difficulty, I guess HoT is more rewarding. However, this thread is about how GW2 was a more laid-back MMO for 3 years and how many of us who actually played it for those 3 years are disappointed in the expansion.

I can understand new players who enjoy a challenge joining GW2 because of HoT. What I can’t understand is why anyone who preferred a higher difficulty would play GW2 for the first 3 years as it was.

As someone who has played those first 3 years and still plays core as well as HoT: Because of the potential. Each single map and fight in core had the potential to be great and still has but would need lots of attention and care to be fostered into something better than they are now and have been so far.

Djinn.9245:

Ashen.2907:

HoT mobs are designed to be more difficult, but are also designed to reward paying attention to your surroundings and to the mobs themselves.

I would LOVE to see HoT mob style encounters in core Tyria maps.

How do HoT mobs “reward” paying attention to your surroundings?

Obviously HoT maps are more difficult to move around and the mobs are more difficult to deal with. For those seeking difficulty, I guess HoT is more rewarding. However, this thread is about how GW2 was a more laid-back MMO for 3 years and how many of us who actually played it for those 3 years are disappointed in the expansion.

I can understand new players who enjoy a challenge joining GW2 because of HoT. What I can’t understand is why anyone who preferred a higher difficulty would play GW2 for the first 3 years as it was.

To me (I understand that this is completely subjective) it is rewarding to have my efforts, in this case paying attention to my character’s surroundings and to mob behavior, impact my success to a degree that is often not the case in core Tyrian maps.

In core Tyrian maps I have gone AFK due to an emergency and have returned to discover that I had gotten credit for completing events while I was gone…my pet alone was sufficient without any effort on my part at all. This may not be the case everywhere in the game, but having a sense that my efforts matter little to my character’s successes makes those victories less rewarding for me.

As to the post that you quoted, I feel I should clarify…

As much as I would love what was described…I am not asking for it. That degree of change to existing content would be, in my opinion, inappropriate at this stage in the game’s lifespan. I would not wish to take away form others something that they love. Expanding the game with more options, such as some more challenging maps, is very different than drastically raising the challenge in existing maps.

Djinn.9245:

Ashen.2907:

HoT mobs are designed to be more difficult, but are also designed to reward paying attention to your surroundings and to the mobs themselves.

I would LOVE to see HoT mob style encounters in core Tyria maps.

How do HoT mobs “reward” paying attention to your surroundings?

Obviously HoT maps are more difficult to move around and the mobs are more difficult to deal with. For those seeking difficulty, I guess HoT is more rewarding. However, this thread is about how GW2 was a more laid-back MMO for 3 years and how many of us who actually played it for those 3 years are disappointed in the expansion.

I can understand new players who enjoy a challenge joining GW2 because of HoT. What I can’t understand is why anyone who preferred a higher difficulty would play GW2 for the first 3 years as it was.

Of course there’s another side to this coin. A bunch of people who only ran fractals and dungeons for which that was not enough, who ask for more difficult content, constantly throughout the entire three years the game has been available.

The problem is, there doesn’t seem to be a clear majority anyway. I’ve seen posts complaining that the open world before HoT was too hard. But I’ve seen many more posts complaining about leveling being boring because the open world is too easy.

Anet made the assumption that people were leaving the game early on because they didn’t underststand it, and they gave us the NPE. The problem then is that we don’t really know how many people just leave because they find open world and map completion dull. I’m not so sure that the people who find it dull aren’t in some sort of majority even though I like it myself.

But Guild Wars 2 also has really fun combat that most other games can’t match and I can easily see someone returning again and again, seeing the potential of the combat system, but hoping for something more challenging.

In fact, I’ve seen it happen in my guild, with people who left because they were bored and they’ve come back and stayed, because the game now has that harder content.

Not everyone who played before was happy. Not everyone who was happy then, like me, doesn’t necessarily want more challenging zones as well as the original content.

It’s just not that simple.

Ashen.2907:

To me (I understand that this is completely subjective) it is rewarding to have my efforts, in this case paying attention to my character’s surroundings and to mob behavior, impact my success to a degree that is often not the case in core Tyrian maps.

In core Tyrian maps I have gone AFK due to an emergency and have returned to discover that I had gotten credit for completing events while I was gone…my pet alone was sufficient without any effort on my part at all. This may not be the case everywhere in the game, but having a sense that my efforts matter little to my character’s successes makes those victories less rewarding for me.

As to the post that you quoted, I feel I should clarify…

As much as I would love what was described…I am not asking for it. That degree of change to existing content would be, in my opinion, inappropriate at this stage in the game’s lifespan. I would not wish to take away form others something that they love. Expanding the game with more options, such as some more challenging maps, is very different than drastically raising the challenge in existing maps.

I see what you are saying about rewarding your attention. I haven’t had the situation of going AFK and accidentally gaining a participation reward. Even in core Tyria I can still be killed by mobs if I am not paying attention so I only AFK in a safe spot.

As for more difficult mobs in core Tyria, soon it won’t matter whether they do it or not. That game that many of us loved is gone. Soon core Tyria will be an anacronism in the new, different, GW2 with the majority of maps being more difficult with content / mobs.

Djinn.9245:

As for more difficult mobs in core Tyria, soon it won’t matter whether they do it or not. That game that many of us loved is gone. Soon core Tyria will be an anacronism in the new, different, GW2 with the majority of maps being more difficult with content / mobs.

Really?

Core Kryta is 5 maps, not counting Southsun Cove, all of them easy.
Core Maguuma is another 5, again, easy.
Core Shiverpeaks and Ascalon have 6 each, and I’d rate them all easy again.
Orr has 3 maps, let’s be generous and say they are hard.

So core Tyria has 22 easy maps. How many hard are there? 4 HoT maps. Maybe you can count Lake Doric. Add Southsun to “hard”, Dry Top and Silverwastes to “easy”. 24 easy, 6 hard. Let’s be generous and count FGS and Fireheart as “moderate”, although they aren’t. Let’s also say Bloodstone Fen, Bitterfrost Frontier and Ember Bay are moderate, although they really aren’t either. Still 22 easy, 5 moderate, 6 hard. So how soon do you expect this anachronism to happen, around 2030?

Djinn.9245:

I can understand new players who enjoy a challenge joining GW2 because of HoT. What I can’t understand is why anyone who preferred a higher difficulty would play GW2 for the first 3 years as it was.

I totally disagree with this sentiment. I will agree that challenge is definitely not a priority for core Tyria’s design, but it can definitely be found if you want it.

When I first picked up GW2, I loved the art style and the Living Story idea (where the map permanently changes or moves on, bearing scars from past eras of the game). Those were the things that kept me with GW2, I didn’t care a whit about challenge.

That being said, I’m the kind of person who enjoys challenge, and soon began seeking it out in core Tyria. It was immediately apparent the hearts, event chains, and other open-world stuff contained almost no challenge whatsoever, even for a brand new player of moderate skill. As soon as I could I prepared myself for dungeons, opened my own “hey I’m new” LFG, and farmed dungeons for xp and salvage. Dungeons ceased to feel challenging for me just a few minutes into that first AC run.

That’s when I started soloing the dungeons that didn’t have an enforced grouping mechanic. To my surprise, even CM story was initially difficult to solo on a couple different classes I’d become fairly familiar with. Every fight became new again when it was just me, trying desperately to achieve various objectives in a boss fight while tanking hits/healing past them/dropping what aoe I could.

Between fractals, preparing for raids, and legendary farming, my current challenge is working with a totally dumb ranger build I put together just because of the way it looks. I’m not the only one – other players handicap themselves in fairly severe ways just to see how far they can take things, or overinvest in stats/traits to focus on strengthening a particular aspect of their gameplay.

So while I agree with you that core Tyria, by design, is a total cakewalk, it definitely has fun corners for challenge seekers – solo dungeon runs being just one of them. Your failure to understand why a challenge seeker would stick with the core game simply indicates that you, yourself, are probably not a challenge seeker hankering for the same type of challenge I described.

Feanor.2358:

Djinn.9245:

As for more difficult mobs in core Tyria, soon it won’t matter whether they do it or not. That game that many of us loved is gone. Soon core Tyria will be an anacronism in the new, different, GW2 with the majority of maps being more difficult with content / mobs.

Really?

Core Kryta is 5 maps, not counting Southsun Cove, all of them easy.
Core Maguuma is another 5, again, easy.
Core Shiverpeaks and Ascalon have 6 each, and I’d rate them all easy again.
Orr has 3 maps, let’s be generous and say they are hard.

So core Tyria has 22 easy maps. How many hard are there? 4 HoT maps. Maybe you can count Lake Doric. Add Southsun to “hard”, Dry Top and Silverwastes to “easy”. 24 easy, 6 hard. Let’s be generous and count FGS and Fireheart as “moderate”, although they aren’t. Let’s also say Bloodstone Fen, Bitterfrost Frontier and Ember Bay are moderate, although they really aren’t either. Still 22 easy, 5 moderate, 6 hard. So how soon do you expect this anachronism to happen, around 2030?

The problem with your rating system is that you are unlikely to generate consensus from the players who believe HoT was too hard. Still, running with your estimate, and assuming ANet keep to their “map per LS Chapter every 2-3 months” trend … with LS maps as moderate to hard, it would take 22-33 months to catch up. 33 would be by early 2020. The possibility that there would be a hiatus on new LS maps would be balanced by the likelihood that we’d see a new XPac by then. Any XPac maps might be easy, moderate or hard, so who knows — and ANet may not make the perceived mistake of low-balling the number of new maps as they did with HoT.

In other words, no one knows, and educated guesses, aren’t.

I used an exaggeration to answer an exaggeration. Didn’t think I’d have to clarify that.

the problem here IMO is that people debating about HOT have different mindsets and different mind maps of how they evaluate value in a game. My issue is that some mindsets are destructive and pointlessly negative and at times hyperbolic, the glass is empty. il try and describe this:

My mindmap of HOT

-Hot Raids : I hate the concept of raids (rote v react, been there done that etc). my action is ignore and occasionally debate.

- Hot maps: I love them, i already have 30 easy maps, i like options. My action is to play and enjoy.

- Hot difficulty: At first I founds it hard. Action – tried to work out why other found it easy and learned more about sceptre/focus, now i enjoy it.

Overall opinion: Worth it for me, I hate raids but can live with ignoring them. Sometimes i let myself get annoyed by negativity others in forums (bad on my part)

An alternative view I have seen

-Hot Maps: I hate them. Action – don’t play them.

-Hot difficulty: Too difficult. Action – I don’t play in hot maps, its broken.

-Hot gliding: Love it. Action – adds to QOL, happy with it.

Overall opinion: I hate HOT, the developers rushed things, expansion ruined whole game, its too expensive, developers don’t listen. This is my online opinion.

Its impossible to debate the latter, because actually its a disguised rant that refuses to self reflect and uses blame rather than taking ownership for game play selection. The answer is to break down the problem, which means ofc these threads go nowhere – which is what we see.

Not a fan at all of the HoT maps or Story Line. But I never had any issues soloing the Story Line. Not to be rude but if you are dying a lot in the LS you are doing it wrong. So easy it is ridiculous.

Another alternate view:

HoT maps – I dislike them. I know that I dislike them because I tried them. Playing on them may not even qualify as play because it is not particularly enjoyable for me.

Action – avoid HoT maps for the most part.

Its not reasonable to expect people who are paying to have fun to spend their “play” time not having fun. Customers telling you that they do not like aspects of your product is kind of important if you want to continue to sell to them in the future.

Silent The Gray.3091:

Ashen.2907:

Another alternate view:

HoT maps – I dislike them. I know that I dislike them because I tried them. Playing on them may not even qualify as play because it is not particularly enjoyable for me.

Action – avoid HoT maps for the most part.

Its not reasonable to expect people who are paying to have fun to spend their “play” time not having fun. Customers telling you that they do not like aspects of your product is kind of important if you want to continue to sell to them in the future.

But pointing things out you don’t like and the reasons why you don’t like such a thing hurts people’s feelings, and it’s 2017, you aren’t allowed to approach things in such a logical manner anymore.

The point was people generalizing all aspects and features of a product because they don’t like an aspect of a product. Then there are those that just blame others ofc (its easier than admitting that a product aspect is just not suited to their taste right) for e.g ‘customers’ actually represents a wide range of persona and user groupings with an equally wide range of opinions on such aspects.

The fly in your dinner plate can make the entire meal unpalatable.

Ashen.2907:

The fly in your dinner plate can make the entire meal unpalatable.

The glass is empty it is then.

Edit in act your fly analogy is perfect:

you think its a fly and want to throw out the entire plate of food because it is all unpalatable. The fly was in fact designed to be a little tasty mushroom.

Some people don’t like little mushrooms and left it but ate the stuff they like.

Some people think its a truffle, they eat the rest of the food on the plate as well ofc.

Ashen.2907:

Its not reasonable to expect people who are paying to have fun to spend their “play” time not having fun. Customers telling you that they do not like aspects of your product is kind of important if you want to continue to sell to them in the future.

You seem to assume all the players have the same tastes and want the same things. This obviously isn’t the case. And frankly, you don’t even need to read threads like this to know this is an unreasonable assumption. You just need to have had contacts with people.

I bought recently HoT and i am still doing first zone and i have to say i love it! As far as difficulty goes its absolutely perfect you cant just spam attack button and watch TV anymore though it was harder at launch from my understanding? I really love zone design it may be a bit confusing but i feel like zones are huge and they are great for exploring.

I think people are hating HoT not because it is bad in itself but because its so much different from original game. For me this is a good thing because MMOs are supposed to evolve not remain same otherwise how can devs improve it?

If i had to complain about something it is price tag (sure its 30 bucks now but it was more at release) and short lenght accoding to reviews.

Nole.3017:

I bought recently HoT and i am still doing first zone and i have to say i love it! As far as difficulty goes its absolutely perfect you cant just spam attack button and watch TV anymore though it was harder at launch from my understanding? I really love zone design it may be a bit confusing but i feel like zones are huge and they are great for exploring.

I think people are hating HoT not because it is bad in itself but because its so much different from original game. For me this is a good thing because MMOs are supposed to evolve not remain same otherwise how can devs improve it?

If i had to complain about something it is price tag (sure its 30 bucks now but it was more at release) and short lenght accoding to reviews.

To me it feels like more people were complaining about difficulty because they suddenly realized they were bad at the game. Their ego took a big hit as they realized they never learned to use traits, what weapons to use and what stats existed besides zerk. That is not really surprising when you could just constantly fail plixx event for fat loot by pressing 1 or just run a zerg of WB. Agree with you evolution is needed at some point.

Feanor.2358:

Ashen.2907:

Its not reasonable to expect people who are paying to have fun to spend their “play” time not having fun. Customers telling you that they do not like aspects of your product is kind of important if you want to continue to sell to them in the future.

You seem to assume all the players have the same tastes and want the same things. This obviously isn’t the case. And frankly, you don’t even need to read threads like this to know this is an unreasonable assumption. You just need to have had contacts with people.

No such assumptiin on my part.

I know that my reasons for disliking HOT are different than some others’ reasons. I know that the aspects of HOT that I like are not liked by some others.

Mario gameplay, maps that aren’t supported by the minimaps, and increased farming requirements doesn’t lead me to the conclusion that the game has evolved.

It has certainly changed but I wouldn’t say evolved.

Dashingsteel.3410:

Mario gameplay, maps that aren’t supported by the minimaps, and increased farming requirements doesn’t lead me to the conclusion that the game has evolved.

It has certainly changed but I wouldn’t say evolved.

I don’t agree with the mario gameplay comment at all. Source. I’ve played mario. It’s nothing like it. Jumping on a mushroom that takes you to a specific place without any skill on your end, is not mario-like in the slightest. The closest thing to mario gameplay in HoT is the adventures. But the rest of HoT, not even close.

As for the evolution part, sure it’s evolved because the AI has evolved. The AI is smarter. I’d sure call that evolution.

The AI might have improved but HoT as a whole is not one step above core gw2.

Some of the technical aspects with HoT may have evolved. Unfortunately, these things don’t always increase the fun factor. Cynical game decisions hamper HoT(excessive farming, gold sinks galore, Mario style adventures, mastery points that force you to play their way instead of yours, repackaging core content and putting it behind a paywall, multi-tiered maps designed to hide how little map space the expansion provided, very small number of weapons and armor skins, and changing guilds from influence in favor of another gold sink.

Ashen.2907:

Feanor.2358:

Ashen.2907:

Its not reasonable to expect people who are paying to have fun to spend their “play” time not having fun. Customers telling you that they do not like aspects of your product is kind of important if you want to continue to sell to them in the future.

You seem to assume all the players have the same tastes and want the same things. This obviously isn’t the case. And frankly, you don’t even need to read threads like this to know this is an unreasonable assumption. You just need to have had contacts with people.

No such assumptiin on my part.

I know that my reasons for disliking HOT are different than some others’ reasons. I know that the aspects of HOT that I like are not liked by some others.

Not really showing in your original comment. You were talking about customers in general and identifying with them. My point was there are many different customers. Some, like you, didn’t like HoT for a variety of reasons. Others, like me, liked it. Sometimes for the very same reasons. So it’s not just black-or-white. The fact users are complaining about something isn’t indicative of anything, by itself. Every decision made is likely to make you lose some customers and gain others. That’s life.

Dashingsteel.3410:

The AI might have improved but HoT as a whole is not one step above core gw2.

Some of the technical aspects with HoT may have evolved. Unfortunately, these things don’t always increase the fun factor. Cynical game decisions hamper HoT(excessive farming, gold sinks galore, Mario style adventures, mastery points that force you to play their way instead of yours, repackaging core content and putting it behind a paywall, multi-tiered maps designed to hide how little map space the expansion provided, very small number of weapons and armor skins, and changing guilds from influence in favor of another gold sink.

I dont defend every choice anet has made, and i m not even saying you should like HOT, but some of your ideas, just seem wrong to me.

Excessive farm: Hot is not more excessive farmy than tyria. Tyria is really farmy, really excessive, Ever heard of a champ train? Orr plinx farm? COE farm? i will say that guild wars turned out to be one of the grindiest games ever over all, but that is not unique to HOT, at least Hots farms are more varied and require you to pay attention more.

Mario style adventures, i assume you mean jumping on mushrooms, Thats a style choice you may not have liked, cant argue with your subjective opinion, but mechanically its no different than portals. It allowed for some interesting level design and enables gliders to be more useful, and id say overall gliding was pretty cool on an exploration level.

Not sure what you mean by mastery points making you play their way? you mean doing events? I mean, i know some people dont love events, but they were already the best way to play the game for 80 levels, which is a pretty long time. Perhaps the exp on masteries was too high, but it was in line with the exp in tyria. Keep in mind you dont need max masteries, many of the end abilities are pretty useless.

And the multi teired maps. I actually dont think they were designed that way to hide how small they are, they are actually pretty big. Maybe they over marketed that, but they were designed that way to make full use of the gliding mechanic, and make exploration a lot more in depth. The Hot maps are actually pretty well done for those who really enjoy exploration, even though i will say they are mostly annoying in the beginning. Which is probably one of the biggest flaws in Hot level design. You feel suffocated and frustrated when you dont have the needed masteries.

I will say the economy is pretty annoying in guild wars, its designed mostly to sustain itself rather than enhance gameplay, but thats not unique to HoT either, in fact id say the few rewards there are in hot, are less obnoxious to obtain than many of the higher Core rewards. A lot of the worst hot economy decisions were made to protect/alter the old economies.

Id say the biggest danger to guild wars is the numbers guys, they have a bad tendency to put ridiculous bad gameplay numbers on everything, sucking the fun out of most of their content. So yeah grind is a problem, but it was a problem with core tyria as well.

Grind isn’t a problem. Grind is the only way to keep players in your game, because players can always exhaust content faster than you can produce it. Not to mention content creation is expensive as well as slow.

So the question can never be “will the game X involve grind or not”. The question is “what the game X will make you grind for”? Here, I feel GW2 is at its best – it makes you grind for fashion, rather than power. HoT doesn’t change that at all. You don’t want to grind? Fine, no problem. You can still play the game just as well.

Feanor.2358:

Ashen.2907:

Its not reasonable to expect people who are paying to have fun to spend their “play” time not having fun. Customers telling you that they do not like aspects of your product is kind of important if you want to continue to sell to them in the future.

You seem to assume all the players have the same tastes and want the same things. This obviously isn’t the case. And frankly, you don’t even need to read threads like this to know this is an unreasonable assumption. You just need to have had contacts with people.

I’m just curious: how did you read the post you quoted and get “you seem to assume all the players have the same tastes and want the same things”?

Read my next comment, it has it explained.

Feanor.2358:

Ashen.2907:

Feanor.2358:

Ashen.2907:

Its not reasonable to expect people who are paying to have fun to spend their “play” time not having fun. Customers telling you that they do not like aspects of your product is kind of important if you want to continue to sell to them in the future.

You seem to assume all the players have the same tastes and want the same things. This obviously isn’t the case. And frankly, you don’t even need to read threads like this to know this is an unreasonable assumption. You just need to have had contacts with people.

No such assumptiin on my part.

I know that my reasons for disliking HOT are different than some others’ reasons. I know that the aspects of HOT that I like are not liked by some others.

Not really showing in your original comment. You were talking about customers in general and identifying with them. My point was there are many different customers. Some, like you, didn’t like HoT for a variety of reasons. Others, like me, liked it. Sometimes for the very same reasons. So it’s not just black-or-white. The fact users are complaining about something isn’t indicative of anything, by itself. Every decision made is likely to make you lose some customers and gain others. That’s life.

Every person posting that they do not like some or all of HoT is a customer. They cannot post here if they have not bought at least the base game. At no point did I say that all customers disliked the game or even aspects of the game. I merely stated that, to paraphrase, users of your product telling you what they do not like about it is important if you want to sell to them in the future. Note the if. If Anet has decided that they do not wish to sell to players who dislike mario-ish gameplay, for example, that is their right. But they deserve the opportunity to make that decision an informed one.

Yes, and pleasing every customer is impossible.

Feanor.2358:

Yes, and pleasing every customer is impossible.

Exactly. Which is why I said, “if,” regarding Anet’s desire to sell to customers who do not like aspects of the product. The customer expressing disatisfaction with an aspect of the product gives ANet the opportunity to make an informed decision about those aspects.

Ashen.2907:

Feanor.2358:

Yes, and pleasing every customer is impossible.

Exactly. Which is why I said, “if,” regarding Anet’s desire to sell to customers who do not like aspects of the product. The customer expressing disatisfaction with an aspect of the product gives ANet the opportunity to make an informed decision about those aspects.

well that would depend on the customer profile, read my sig.

vesica tempestas.1563:

Ashen.2907:

Feanor.2358:

Yes, and pleasing every customer is impossible.

Exactly. Which is why I said, “if,” regarding Anet’s desire to sell to customers who do not like aspects of the product. The customer expressing disatisfaction with an aspect of the product gives ANet the opportunity to make an informed decision about those aspects.

well that would depend on the customer profile, read my sig.

Any company will, by necessity, have to decide to not please everyone. Only with relevant information can they pick and choose who to try pleasing and who to ignore.

Without that information the company is just swinging wildly in the dark. There are many aspects, facets, to HoT. If people who disliked aspects sufficiently to sour the entire expansion for them, as certain specific aspects did for me as an example, merely quit or at least stopped visiting HoT maps, without voicing their complaints, ANet would have no information upon which to make future development decisions. If those who quit or stopped visiting HoT were an insignificant minority and the expansion sales exceeded expectations, and player retention were all rosy, then the company could safely choose to ignore the silent disappearance of a few players.

If, however, things arent as rosy. If, perhaps, HoT sales did not exceed expectations, and so on, giving ANet reason to think that they might want to revise aspects of the new zones, or revisit aspects of design decisions in the future, it might be nice if they had some information to go on.

Again, the core of my point, the whole point really, is that knowing what customers dont like about your product is important for a company if they want to sell to those customers. The company may very well decide that they do not want to sell to those customers, which is fine. Their product after all. But at least they can have the information to make an informed decision about who they want to not sell to.

Silent The Gray.3091:

Ashen.2907:

Another alternate view:

HoT maps – I dislike them. I know that I dislike them because I tried them. Playing on them may not even qualify as play because it is not particularly enjoyable for me.

Action – avoid HoT maps for the most part.

Its not reasonable to expect people who are paying to have fun to spend their “play” time not having fun. Customers telling you that they do not like aspects of your product is kind of important if you want to continue to sell to them in the future.

But pointing things out you don’t like and the reasons why you don’t like such a thing hurts people’s feelings, and it’s 2017, you aren’t allowed to approach things in such a logical manner anymore.

This isn’t actually true. If your personal experience is that every time you try and point out that you don’t like something, and why, people react as if you are insulting them, the problem is almost certainly with you.

(This thesis is well supported by the structure of your statement here, which assumes that everyone except you is clearly the root cause of your problem, and it is because nobody else is “logical” about things.)

Gayle has a great explanation of how to give good feedback on the forums, which includes concrete advice that will absolutely help you communicate without the unpleasant responses you have grown used to.

PS: you can also seek coaching in the subject, which may be useful. I certainly found that helped me with similar interprersonal communication issues.

Ashen.2907:

vesica tempestas.1563:

Ashen.2907:

Feanor.2358:

Yes, and pleasing every customer is impossible.

Exactly. Which is why I said, “if,” regarding Anet’s desire to sell to customers who do not like aspects of the product. The customer expressing disatisfaction with an aspect of the product gives ANet the opportunity to make an informed decision about those aspects.

well that would depend on the customer profile, read my sig.

Any company will, by necessity, have to decide to not please everyone. Only with relevant information can they pick and choose who to try pleasing and who to ignore.

Without that information the company is just swinging wildly in the dark. There are many aspects, facets, to HoT. If people who disliked aspects sufficiently to sour the entire expansion for them, as certain specific aspects did for me as an example, merely quit or at least stopped visiting HoT maps, without voicing their complaints, ANet would have no information upon which to make future development decisions. If those who quit or stopped visiting HoT were an insignificant minority and the expansion sales exceeded expectations, and player retention were all rosy, then the company could safely choose to ignore the silent disappearance of a few players.

If, however, things arent as rosy. If, perhaps, HoT sales did not exceed expectations, and so on, giving ANet reason to think that they might want to revise aspects of the new zones, or revisit aspects of design decisions in the future, it might be nice if they had some information to go on.

Again, the core of my point, the whole point really, is that knowing what customers dont like about your product is important for a company if they want to sell to those customers. The company may very well decide that they do not want to sell to those customers, which is fine. Their product after all. But at least they can have the information to make an informed decision about who they want to not sell to.

Which is exactly what they would have done with their market research, lensing, profiling, segmentation etc. I know loads of players that love HOT, equally i can see people that are unhappy in this thread, it is not a black and white HOT failed/succeeded for all, which is what is implied by others in this thread.

Ashen.2907:

Feanor.2358:

Yes, and pleasing every customer is impossible.

Exactly. Which is why I said, “if,” regarding Anet’s desire to sell to customers who do not like aspects of the product. The customer expressing disatisfaction with an aspect of the product gives ANet the opportunity to make an informed decision about those aspects.

The problem is, if they do that they won’t be selling their product to other customers. And while the ones unhappy with HoT have an alternative – stick with core Tyria – these other customers don’t. I’m not a marketing specialist, but making HoT different seems a smart move to me.

Feanor.2358:

Grind isn’t a problem. Grind is the only way to keep players in your game, because players can always exhaust content faster than you can produce it. Not to mention content creation is expensive as well as slow.

So the question can never be “will the game X involve grind or not”. The question is “what the game X will make you grind for”? Here, I feel GW2 is at its best – it makes you grind for fashion, rather than power. HoT doesn’t change that at all. You don’t want to grind? Fine, no problem. You can still play the game just as well.

just because something must be a part of your game doesnt mean it cant be overdone. We all have to eat to live, that doesnt mean what you eat, how often you eat, if you are forced to eat etc doesnt impact your enjoyment of your life.

grind must exist, does that mean i should design a game so that you must click an icon 80000 times before turning enemy drop into a god weapon?

the game design tied to the repetition, and what type of play you must repeat, and how much you must repeat it matters.

Feanor.2358:

Ashen.2907:

Feanor.2358:

Yes, and pleasing every customer is impossible.

Exactly. Which is why I said, “if,” regarding Anet’s desire to sell to customers who do not like aspects of the product. The customer expressing disatisfaction with an aspect of the product gives ANet the opportunity to make an informed decision about those aspects.

The problem is, if they do that they won’t be selling their product to other customers. And while the ones unhappy with HoT have an alternative – stick with core Tyria – these other customers don’t. I’m not a marketing specialist, but making HoT different seems a smart move to me.

Making HoT different may very well turn out to have been a smart move. This will depend on that difference having attracted more customers than it alienated.

Ashen.2907:

Feanor.2358:

Ashen.2907:

Feanor.2358:

Yes, and pleasing every customer is impossible.

Exactly. Which is why I said, “if,” regarding Anet’s desire to sell to customers who do not like aspects of the product. The customer expressing disatisfaction with an aspect of the product gives ANet the opportunity to make an informed decision about those aspects.

The problem is, if they do that they won’t be selling their product to other customers. And while the ones unhappy with HoT have an alternative – stick with core Tyria – these other customers don’t. I’m not a marketing specialist, but making HoT different seems a smart move to me.

Making HoT different may very well turn out to have been a smart move. This will depend on that difference having attracted more customers than it alienated.

See, I love HoT, but I don’t think it’s attracted more customers than it’s alienated. That’s why it had to be changed in the first place. If it had attracted more people than it alienate that big April patch last year would have never happened.

HoT attracted some people, but I’m pretty sure Anet didn’t expect the number of people who felt strongly against it.

For a very long time, long before HOT launched, I warned of the dangers of making the game feel more hard core. It attracts a certain type of player, who by their very nature puts off players like me.

Nothing I dislike more than to see the map explode on the rare times we fail an AB meta. The cursing, the yelling, the finger pointing, the name calling. Of course I didn’t like that at the marionette too and stopped doing it once I got my achievements.

This game, for me, was better when there were more helpful, happier people playing it.

Vayne.8563:

Ashen.2907:

Feanor.2358:

Ashen.2907:

Feanor.2358:

Yes, and pleasing every customer is impossible.

Exactly. Which is why I said, “if,” regarding Anet’s desire to sell to customers who do not like aspects of the product. The customer expressing disatisfaction with an aspect of the product gives ANet the opportunity to make an informed decision about those aspects.

The problem is, if they do that they won’t be selling their product to other customers. And while the ones unhappy with HoT have an alternative – stick with core Tyria – these other customers don’t. I’m not a marketing specialist, but making HoT different seems a smart move to me.

Making HoT different may very well turn out to have been a smart move. This will depend on that difference having attracted more customers than it alienated.

See, I love HoT, but I don’t think it’s attracted more customers than it’s alienated. That’s why it had to be changed in the first place. If it had attracted more people than it alienate that big April patch last year would have never happened.

HoT attracted some people, but I’m pretty sure Anet didn’t expect the number of people who felt strongly against it.

For a very long time, long before HOT launched, I warned of the dangers of making the game feel more hard core. It attracts a certain type of player, who by their very nature puts off players like me.

Nothing I dislike more than to see the map explode on the rare times we fail an AB meta. The cursing, the yelling, the finger pointing, the name calling. Of course I didn’t like that at the marionette too and stopped doing it once I got my achievements.

This game, for me, was better when there were more helpful, happier people playing it.

It may suck when people rage, but they rage all the time regardless. I seen people raging at champion farming and there was nothing difficult about that.

not everyone is happy and helpful, thats just reality.

trying to create a magical land with no rage isnt really possible.

phys.7689:

Vayne.8563:

Ashen.2907:

Feanor.2358:

Ashen.2907:

Feanor.2358:

Yes, and pleasing every customer is impossible.

Exactly. Which is why I said, “if,” regarding Anet’s desire to sell to customers who do not like aspects of the product. The customer expressing disatisfaction with an aspect of the product gives ANet the opportunity to make an informed decision about those aspects.

The problem is, if they do that they won’t be selling their product to other customers. And while the ones unhappy with HoT have an alternative – stick with core Tyria – these other customers don’t. I’m not a marketing specialist, but making HoT different seems a smart move to me.

Making HoT different may very well turn out to have been a smart move. This will depend on that difference having attracted more customers than it alienated.

See, I love HoT, but I don’t think it’s attracted more customers than it’s alienated. That’s why it had to be changed in the first place. If it had attracted more people than it alienate that big April patch last year would have never happened.

HoT attracted some people, but I’m pretty sure Anet didn’t expect the number of people who felt strongly against it.

For a very long time, long before HOT launched, I warned of the dangers of making the game feel more hard core. It attracts a certain type of player, who by their very nature puts off players like me.

Nothing I dislike more than to see the map explode on the rare times we fail an AB meta. The cursing, the yelling, the finger pointing, the name calling. Of course I didn’t like that at the marionette too and stopped doing it once I got my achievements.

This game, for me, was better when there were more helpful, happier people playing it.

It may suck when people rage, but they rage all the time regardless. I seen people raging at champion farming and there was nothing difficult about that.

not everyone is happy and helpful, thats just reality.

trying to create a magical land with no rage isnt really possible.

Oh I know that. But the more competitive things get, the more time you spend, the more time you have to lose the more people will rage. Everyone has a threshold.

I’ve seen some very reasonable people lose it in raids because they were banging their heads against it for an hour and a half and someone screwed up. That’s the issue I have.

Harder content attracts more competitive people, who tend to sledge more (as well say in Australia). In general the more competitive formats of the game have always had a higher level of verbal abuse.

You can’t get rid of it. You can attract people in to the game less likely to engage in that or accept it.

I suspect that the number of GW2 customers who bought HoT and were dissatisfied with some aspect(s) of the product was dwarfed by the number of GW2 customers who were dissatisfied with a variety of things about HoT and didn’t buy it in the first place. Those include such things as the perceived sleight to veteran players due to bundling core GW2 with HoT for new customers; inclusion of a new profession but no new slot for everyone; and the perceived small number of new zones and content for the price. It is likely that a lot of those players dropped the game. After all, why continue to play GW2 if you don’t buy HoT when ANet made it clear that HoT is the game going forward (at least until XPac 2).

It is because of that belief that I also believe that ANet is taking to heart complaints about HoT gameplay. After all, if they lost a substantial portion of the total player base who did not buy HoT, retaining those who did becomes more important. Companies can (and do) of course turn their backs on customers as much as they like, but that practice can lead to reduced revenue, and even sometimes catastrophically reduced revenue. It’s not that I think GW2 is there yet, but when they make game design decisions that cause long-time supporters to say they like the game less — and I’ve seen lots of that — I also no longer believe that GW2 2ould never get to that point.

Feanor.2358:

Ashen.2907:

Its not reasonable to expect people who are paying to have fun to spend their “play” time not having fun. Customers telling you that they do not like aspects of your product is kind of important if you want to continue to sell to them in the future.

You seem to assume all the players have the same tastes and want the same things. This obviously isn’t the case. And frankly, you don’t even need to read threads like this to know this is an unreasonable assumption. You just need to have had contacts with people.

Djinn.9245:

I’m just curious: how did you read the post you quoted and get “you seem to assume all the players have the same tastes and want the same things”?

Feanor.2358:

Read my next comment, it has it explained.

I guess you must be responding to me, though you don’t quote my post. But no, I’m not going to read a different post to understand this post. I want to know how you go to your conclusion from the post you actually quoted.

Djinn.9245:

Feanor.2358:

Ashen.2907:

Its not reasonable to expect people who are paying to have fun to spend their “play” time not having fun. Customers telling you that they do not like aspects of your product is kind of important if you want to continue to sell to them in the future.

You seem to assume all the players have the same tastes and want the same things. This obviously isn’t the case. And frankly, you don’t even need to read threads like this to know this is an unreasonable assumption. You just need to have had contacts with people.

Djinn.9245:

I’m just curious: how did you read the post you quoted and get “you seem to assume all the players have the same tastes and want the same things”?

Feanor.2358:

Read my next comment, it has it explained.

I guess you must be responding to me, though you don’t quote my post. But no, I’m not going to read a different post to understand this post. I want to know how you go to your conclusion from the post you actually quoted.

Sort of the problems with conversations everywhere. People trying to win arguments pick on specific quotes to say this quote didn’t say this.

Someone in this very thread said people didn’t say HOT was too hard, when the actual OP (and several posts since) have said or implied HOT was too hard.

Conversations don’t always work where a person is replying to only the last thing said. I’m often guilty of the same thing, quoting the most recent quote and responding to something that’s said long term. It’s easy enough to do.

We know the conversation is about HOT being too hard, because the OP is about HoT being too hard. And we know many people in this thread believe that somehow this a major reason HOT didn’t go over as well as Anet might have liked.

We also know, from this thread, that not everyone agrees that it’s a major reason.

HoT, according to some, had many things going against it, including the dungeon nerf, the character slot fiasco, the perceived grind, and the issue of the free to play coming out, kittening off a percentage of veterans (source: posts about it almost every day).

You can argue about what was said in one post or another post, but the truth is, many here really believe that they’re part of some sort of majority that think HoT was too difficult, or HoT was too grindy or HoT just wasn’t enjoyable.

But I’m absolutely certain not everyone who claims HOT was so bad every really gave it a fair go (as we say down under), even if specific individuals did.

Source, people who have avoided playing it, or people who said they did who later found it fun, when they actually figured stuff out.

zealex.9410:

The base game makes a terrible job scaling the difficulty of the open world up until hot and since ppl wanted more challenge the hot maps ended up being harder. You said it your self “last night i gave zhaitan a beat down” thats not supposed to be the case its a god kitten elder dragon and it you litterally glitter it to death. I say hot does a nice job showing how dangerous should a jungle be and how devastating an elder dragon as well as his minions are.

I understand your frustration but its not the hot maps and story thats garbage its the core tyria that poorly balanced and overall facerol easy.

I don’t remember Zhaitan being easy when I did the final mission on my Mesmer. It just was more forgiving of mistakes than HoT is. That’s the main difference. HoT content punishes mistakes with swift, harsh retribution. The reason grouping makes it more bearable is because of how the revive system works; with enough players around, you can alleviate the punishment of mistakes with quick group revives. But it still doesn’t make the content any less punishing of mistakes.

Take HoT content and give it a revive system more like a classic MMO, where you can only battle rez every 5-10 minutes on a timer, or worse, you have to do a corpse run. No one other than niche die-hards would play it. The only saving grace for HoT content is the ease of rezzing downed or dead players and that only comes with being in a group.

People can argue about how objectively difficult HoT content is, but what can’t be refuted is that it’s inherently punishing of mistakes.