Guild Wars 2

Or perhaps a 1, 2, or 3 tier marking along with the up or down arrow would help the minimap.

I just think when you see an area marked with an up or down arrow on the minimap it would be helpful to include a tier number along side the arrows just so the arrows don’t mislead.

Dashingsteel.3410:

I would think that misleading map indicators causing more confusion than help is very different than achieving a vista that you have already located.

The problem with HoT is the minimap which I assume is to help you navigate often ends up misleading you as to the location of a particular area.

You used the example of the breached wall blitz vista. This is a platforming activity. The problem I have with HoT is one of navigation. The minimaps just don’t perform well with the multitiered maps.

I don’t enjoy my time being wasted. I wish the minimap instead of giving you up and down arrows would simply have a 1, 2 or 3 so you knew which tier of the map the area was in.

But what you are referring to already exists. you just have to press “,”. And it displays the different levels of a map on the right corner.

Displaying this sort of information on the mini-map will just make it even more messy and unusable. The think is if you really want to know at which level things are, you should really use the map and no only the mini-map. Personally, even in core tyria at the beginning of the game, I had a hard time figuring out where some things were by only using the mini-map. I now only use the mini-map because I have learned where things were. It is exactly the same process.

You know what I hate? I hate when people like you make a post but don’t even care to make comments about it later on and add to the discussion.

If you’re not going to participate, don’t even bother making posts.

If you’re reading this. The new map is meant to be a step up to the core game. You either lack skill and/or sufficient class knowledge to tackle the HoT zone. Also would it really hurt to ask someone for some help to go through the story parts? I’m sure plenty of people are there to give you a helping hand.

If you leave when you hit one roadblock then maybe gaming isn’t for you.

Have a nice day.

Vayne.8563:

Actually there are plenty of decisions Anet makes that are exactly they same and they said so. They expect people to have to learn certain fights and not master them right away. They said it about the marionette fight. They talked about, at that time, raising the bar higher and setting a situation where the community would have to come together and teach each other to get through the content. So yeah, they have had design meetings, and that’s exactly what they came up with at that time. Therefore, it’s probably not accurate to say that no design meeting ever went this way.

There have always been players that want everything spelled out for them, and players who are annoyed when everything is spelled out for them. However, getting around and learning a zone IS the game very often, as learning to get to a hard vista or get through a hard jumping puzzle was the game originally.

I know a lot of people couldn’t easily get to the vista at the end of the breached wall blitz jumping puzzle in the core game. It’s a vista and a hero point if I’m not mistaken. Want to complete the zone, do the JP, the entrance of which is no where near where those things are.

You either figure it out, or you look it up in the wiki or on Dulfy, or ask a guildie. There’s no tutorial for it. That’s how it was designed.

Anet figured, now that many people have been playing the game and have the basics down, they can do more for the people who play a bit better, or the people who don’t want to have their hand held through every single section.

I personally get annoyed when I’m doing a story and a giant red arrow on the minimap tells me where I need to go…sometimes even when there’s only one way TO go.

Saying that no company designs content you have to work your way through is simply untrue.

Your whole post is predicated on something I didn’t say.

I stated, "If the go-to defense for the maps being complicated is ‘you eventually learn them,’ that’s not a defense that would fly in any design meeting I could respectfully be a part of. " Meaning, I would either argue the point, or leave the room having lost respect for my fellow designers. Which is a point I made in response to players arguing that HoT maps are fine “because you eventually learn them.” I then expanded on my point in detail, explaining the reasoning behind why I feel that way about it.

And I further added, later in the post, “That being said, arguments over design choices I welcome and I’m not right about everything when it comes to games. But this stuff about ‘you eventually learn’ is not a good argument.” To make it clear that I am open to alternative arguments surrounding the subject, but “people will eventually learn” is not a good one.

I did NOT say that no game has ever made such a decision, intended or otherwise (???).

You are just confusing the issue with your post, turning it into a rebuttal of an argument that wasn’t made, so that you can try to dismiss the point.

Vayne.8563:

Actually there are plenty of decisions Anet makes that are exactly they same and they said so. They expect people to have to learn certain fights and not master them right away. They said it about the marionette fight. They talked about, at that time, raising the bar higher and setting a situation where the community would have to come together and teach each other to get through the content. So yeah, they have had design meetings, and that’s exactly what they came up with at that time. Therefore, it’s probably not accurate to say that no design meeting ever went this way.

There have always been players that want everything spelled out for them, and players who are annoyed when everything is spelled out for them. However, getting around and learning a zone IS the game very often, as learning to get to a hard vista or get through a hard jumping puzzle was the game originally.

I know a lot of people couldn’t easily get to the vista at the end of the breached wall blitz jumping puzzle in the core game. It’s a vista and a hero point if I’m not mistaken. Want to complete the zone, do the JP, the entrance of which is no where near where those things are.

You either figure it out, or you look it up in the wiki or on Dulfy, or ask a guildie. There’s no tutorial for it. That’s how it was designed.

Anet figured, now that many people have been playing the game and have the basics down, they can do more for the people who play a bit better, or the people who don’t want to have their hand held through every single section.

I personally get annoyed when I’m doing a story and a giant red arrow on the minimap tells me where I need to go…sometimes even when there’s only one way TO go.

Saying that no company designs content you have to work your way through is simply untrue.

Oh, also, unless you’re going to tell me you were in the room for those design meetings, I don’t think you understand how it works. I hardly think the meetings consisted of, “Players will learn. Next.” There is a huge difference between a design philosophy to do with progressive learning and a carte blanche excuse that confusing or challenging doesn’t matter because “players will learn.” I’d be amazed for any of them having jobs if they tried to make it that simplistic. The whole process is long and detailed, and, like most creative endeavors, easy to screw up. And it is a process, not a magic eight ball.

the original point is that HOT is more complicated, it was designed to be more complicated, if you are not willing to learn a more complicated map the answer is not going to be a better minimap because that is NOT the root problem. The root problem is an unwillingness to accept that you need to invest in the game to learn the maps. That’s a personal problem, not a problem of the game – proven by the fact many players do in fact know how to navigate HOT.

You can argue all you like about difficulty levels, but if the average game player is 35 in gaming in general and the average player has gamed for over 10 years, then the assumption made by Anet that those players and GW Vets can cope with vertical movement seems reasonable.

I agree partially that HoT is designed to be more challenging but I feel that is in regards to the enemies you face and some of the semi-platforming elements. I do not believe that Anet intended navigation to be more difficult.

The great majority of maps in core gw2 have navigation that is clear cut. The only maps in gw2 that aren’t are the grove, rata sum, and the black citadel. The reason they aren’t is that they are mutli-tiered just like the HoT maps.

This IS a problem of the minimap not being compatible with multitiered maps.

Why even offer a revealed map and minimap if you intend for your players to memorize and learn the map?? I don’t think Anet intended to change the game in this kind of direction.

I am not talking about an undiscovered map. I am talking about a map that has been fully explored and revealed already.

You offer a mini-map and revealed so that players know where the events spawn and alternatively you want a revealed so that you can 100% a map. Simple as that.

I agree the mini-map SHOULD be helpful for players to know where events are but in multi-tiered maps they can give misleading information.

So let me get this straight….. In core gw2 the only maps the developers wanted their players to truly learn were Rata Sum, Black Citadel, and the Grove.

All the other maps were accurately depicted by the revealed map and mini-map.

I’m just going by the claim made earlier that HoT was specifically designed to be navigationally vague and that developers designed it so players had to memorize and learn the maps.

Dashingsteel.3410:

So let me get this straight….. In core gw2 the only maps the developers wanted their players to truly learn were Rata Sum, Black Citadel, and the Grove.

All the other maps were accurately depicted by the revealed map and mini-map.

I’m just going by the claim made earlier that HoT was specifically designed to be navigationally vague and that developers designed it so players had to memorize and learn the maps.

‘navigationally vague’ isnt a thing. Hot has a more complicated design, ergo there is more to learn, that’s it, you either choose to play and learn or you don’t. Players choice.

Dashingsteel.3410:

I agree partially that HoT is designed to be more challenging but I feel that is in regards to the enemies you face and some of the semi-platforming elements. I do not believe that Anet intended navigation to be more difficult.

The great majority of maps in core gw2 have navigation that is clear cut. The only maps in gw2 that aren’t are the grove, rata sum, and the black citadel. The reason they aren’t is that they are mutli-tiered just like the HoT maps.

This IS a problem of the minimap not being compatible with multitiered maps.

Why even offer a revealed map and minimap if you intend for your players to memorize and learn the map?? I don’t think Anet intended to change the game in this kind of direction.

I am not talking about an undiscovered map. I am talking about a map that has been fully explored and revealed already.

I think I see what you’re saying and I’m inclined to believe it. That they did not anticipate the issues of a multi-layered map in their mini-map design.

Rata Sum, Black Citadel and the Grove also had a more “complicated design” and I don’t remember Anet saying core gw2 was supposed to be as difficult as HoT.

That is why I am saying that this is a problem of the minimap being inadequate and not a conscious decision by developers to make navigation harder just for HoT.

Labjax.2465:

Dashingsteel.3410:

I agree partially that HoT is designed to be more challenging but I feel that is in regards to the enemies you face and some of the semi-platforming elements. I do not believe that Anet intended navigation to be more difficult.

The great majority of maps in core gw2 have navigation that is clear cut. The only maps in gw2 that aren’t are the grove, rata sum, and the black citadel. The reason they aren’t is that they are mutli-tiered just like the HoT maps.

This IS a problem of the minimap not being compatible with multitiered maps.

Why even offer a revealed map and minimap if you intend for your players to memorize and learn the map?? I don’t think Anet intended to change the game in this kind of direction.

I am not talking about an undiscovered map. I am talking about a map that has been fully explored and revealed already.

I think I see what you’re saying and I’m inclined to believe it. That they did not anticipate the issues of a multi-layered map in their mini-map design.

i think that yall have a point, but yall missed the real meaning.
some maps are not designed to be easy to navigate via map, theyvare designed to be consistent with themselves.

rata sum, is in fact designed to be extremely convient, IF you know rata sum well. its very poorly designed if you dont.

black citadelnis supposed to be designed by a race who places powerful and agressive designs over ease of use. char dont particularly feel things should be easy.

verdant brink is not supposed to be a designed area, its a natural jungle thrown asunder by a crazy dragon tree natural disaster.

and yes exploration has way more depth in hot than in other areas. there is way more hidden things, and its easy to get lost. part of the difficulty in hot is that knowing the map is a huuge advantage. i dont think thatbis unintentional.

but a side effect of making these complex areas, is that the map is not the best tool for navigating it.

but that is a lesser consideration than the map itself achieving its goals.

really you guys dont like the concept of verdant brink and tangled depths, verdant brink is supposed to be a wild lands, and tangled depths is labrynth like.

which is fine, while having a few maps like this is a good variety.
because its all packaged in one expansion, people feel like the expansion was a waste for them, if they have this opinion.

good news is i dont think the next expansion is about a similar thing. it most likely will focus on having a lot of stuff spread out, and the travel is about doing it faster and getting new places, over unlocking the secrets of a small complicated area.

phys.7689:

Labjax.2465:

Dashingsteel.3410:

I agree partially that HoT is designed to be more challenging but I feel that is in regards to the enemies you face and some of the semi-platforming elements. I do not believe that Anet intended navigation to be more difficult.

The great majority of maps in core gw2 have navigation that is clear cut. The only maps in gw2 that aren’t are the grove, rata sum, and the black citadel. The reason they aren’t is that they are mutli-tiered just like the HoT maps.

This IS a problem of the minimap not being compatible with multitiered maps.

Why even offer a revealed map and minimap if you intend for your players to memorize and learn the map?? I don’t think Anet intended to change the game in this kind of direction.

I am not talking about an undiscovered map. I am talking about a map that has been fully explored and revealed already.

I think I see what you’re saying and I’m inclined to believe it. That they did not anticipate the issues of a multi-layered map in their mini-map design.

i think that yall have a point, but yall missed the real meaning.
some maps are not designed to be easy to navigate via map, theyvare designed to be consistent with themselves.

rata sum, is in fact designed to be extremely convient, IF you know rata sum well. its very poorly designed if you dont.

black citadelnis supposed to be designed by a race who places powerful and agressive designs over ease of use. char dont particularly feel things should be easy.

verdant brink is not supposed to be a designed area, its a natural jungle thrown asunder by a crazy dragon tree natural disaster.

and yes exploration has way more depth in hot than in other areas. there is way more hidden things, and its easy to get lost. part of the difficulty in hot is that knowing the map is a huuge advantage. i dont think thatbis unintentional.

but a side effect of making these complex areas, is that the map is not the best tool for navigating it.

but that is a lesser consideration than the map itself achieving its goals.

really you guys dont like the concept of verdant brink and tangled depths, verdant brink is supposed to be a wild lands, and tangled depths is labrynth like.

which is fine, while having a few maps like this is a good variety.
because its all packaged in one expansion, people feel like the expansion was a waste for them, if they have this opinion.

good news is i dont think the next expansion is about a similar thing. it most likely will focus on having a lot of stuff spread out, and the travel is about doing it faster and getting new places, over unlocking the secrets of a small complicated area.

I think I get your argument (that the design choices are reflective of the theme for the area) but I disagree with that being a good idea, presuming that it was the motivation. At the end of the day, this is an MMO and functionality > theme. Because after being in a specific area for the millionth time, it’s the functionality that is going to matter to you, not whether it fits a theme that long ago became a scotoma.

I believe I addressed this point in some way earlier, in saying something to the effect of, “Sometimes emphasis on immersion can hurt gameplay.”

But ultimately, it seems that the defense of maps like Tangled Depths boils down to, “Some people like it.” Which is fine on an opinion level, with regards to who enjoys what, but I don’t agree with it being a strong choice on the design level for the majority of players.

Dashingsteel.3410:

I would think that misleading map indicators causing more confusion than help is very different than achieving a vista that you have already located.

The problem with HoT is the minimap which I assume is to help you navigate often ends up misleading you as to the location of a particular area.

You used the example of the breached wall blitz vista. This is a platforming activity. The problem I have with HoT is one of navigation. The minimaps just don’t perform well with the multitiered maps.

I don’t enjoy my time being wasted. I wish the minimap instead of giving you up and down arrows would simply have a 1, 2 or 3 so you knew which tier of the map the area was in.

Map indicators are a lot less misleading since up and down had been added to targets, which was a huge upgrade to the map system.

And there are plenty of instances where you need to get to a vista but where it starts from is a completely different place.

phys.7689:

Labjax.2465:

Dashingsteel.3410:

I agree partially that HoT is designed to be more challenging but I feel that is in regards to the enemies you face and some of the semi-platforming elements. I do not believe that Anet intended navigation to be more difficult.

The great majority of maps in core gw2 have navigation that is clear cut. The only maps in gw2 that aren’t are the grove, rata sum, and the black citadel. The reason they aren’t is that they are mutli-tiered just like the HoT maps.

This IS a problem of the minimap not being compatible with multitiered maps.

Why even offer a revealed map and minimap if you intend for your players to memorize and learn the map?? I don’t think Anet intended to change the game in this kind of direction.

I am not talking about an undiscovered map. I am talking about a map that has been fully explored and revealed already.

I think I see what you’re saying and I’m inclined to believe it. That they did not anticipate the issues of a multi-layered map in their mini-map design.

i think that yall have a point, but yall missed the real meaning.
some maps are not designed to be easy to navigate via map, theyvare designed to be consistent with themselves.

rata sum, is in fact designed to be extremely convient, IF you know rata sum well. its very poorly designed if you dont.

black citadelnis supposed to be designed by a race who places powerful and agressive designs over ease of use. char dont particularly feel things should be easy.

verdant brink is not supposed to be a designed area, its a natural jungle thrown asunder by a crazy dragon tree natural disaster.

and yes exploration has way more depth in hot than in other areas. there is way more hidden things, and its easy to get lost. part of the difficulty in hot is that knowing the map is a huuge advantage. i dont think thatbis unintentional.

but a side effect of making these complex areas, is that the map is not the best tool for navigating it.

but that is a lesser consideration than the map itself achieving its goals.

really you guys dont like the concept of verdant brink and tangled depths, verdant brink is supposed to be a wild lands, and tangled depths is labrynth like.

which is fine, while having a few maps like this is a good variety.
because its all packaged in one expansion, people feel like the expansion was a waste for them, if they have this opinion.

good news is i dont think the next expansion is about a similar thing. it most likely will focus on having a lot of stuff spread out, and the travel is about doing it faster and getting new places, over unlocking the secrets of a small complicated area.

That is good news. Where have you heard that the expac 2 maps are going to be more pleasurable for exploration?

phys.7689:

3 is the major flaw, these maps are really good/funnest when are experienced with them. you can move around fairly quickly, but its not very boring, and a lot of variation within each map.

however the curve is steep and its very hard to achieve anything or participate in the map early on, which is when you most need to particpate (for mastery exp)

I have played these maps a lot. But I still can’t get somewhere that I want about 40-80% of the time (depending on the map).

slashlizardy.9167:

phys.7689:

Labjax.2465:

Dashingsteel.3410:

I agree partially that HoT is designed to be more challenging but I feel that is in regards to the enemies you face and some of the semi-platforming elements. I do not believe that Anet intended navigation to be more difficult.

The great majority of maps in core gw2 have navigation that is clear cut. The only maps in gw2 that aren’t are the grove, rata sum, and the black citadel. The reason they aren’t is that they are mutli-tiered just like the HoT maps.

This IS a problem of the minimap not being compatible with multitiered maps.

Why even offer a revealed map and minimap if you intend for your players to memorize and learn the map?? I don’t think Anet intended to change the game in this kind of direction.

I am not talking about an undiscovered map. I am talking about a map that has been fully explored and revealed already.

I think I see what you’re saying and I’m inclined to believe it. That they did not anticipate the issues of a multi-layered map in their mini-map design.

i think that yall have a point, but yall missed the real meaning.
some maps are not designed to be easy to navigate via map, theyvare designed to be consistent with themselves.

rata sum, is in fact designed to be extremely convient, IF you know rata sum well. its very poorly designed if you dont.

black citadelnis supposed to be designed by a race who places powerful and agressive designs over ease of use. char dont particularly feel things should be easy.

verdant brink is not supposed to be a designed area, its a natural jungle thrown asunder by a crazy dragon tree natural disaster.

and yes exploration has way more depth in hot than in other areas. there is way more hidden things, and its easy to get lost. part of the difficulty in hot is that knowing the map is a huuge advantage. i dont think thatbis unintentional.

but a side effect of making these complex areas, is that the map is not the best tool for navigating it.

but that is a lesser consideration than the map itself achieving its goals.

really you guys dont like the concept of verdant brink and tangled depths, verdant brink is supposed to be a wild lands, and tangled depths is labrynth like.

which is fine, while having a few maps like this is a good variety.
because its all packaged in one expansion, people feel like the expansion was a waste for them, if they have this opinion.

good news is i dont think the next expansion is about a similar thing. it most likely will focus on having a lot of stuff spread out, and the travel is about doing it faster and getting new places, over unlocking the secrets of a small complicated area.

That is good news. Where have you heard that the expac 2 maps are going to be more pleasurable for exploration?

its just an educated guess based on some leaks.

do note, it may be less pleasurable for exploration, thats subjective. in terms of exploration, id say HoT maps are the most pleasurable, they most reward knowledge and have tremendous replayability for those who explore.
there many ways to get too the same place, many secrets, etc.
compared to say arah, or queensdale, where after the first time ive basically figured the map out.

also glider interactions enhance it

i concede thats me though, some people prefer long walks on the beach to a lost city in jungle when it comes to what they d like to explore

the best attribute of vanilla maps to me, is that its easy to get to large events, but thats sorta the opposite of exploration. i just teleport, or follow mini map markers

Djinn.9245:

phys.7689:

3 is the major flaw, these maps are really good/funnest when are experienced with them. you can move around fairly quickly, but its not very boring, and a lot of variation within each map.

however the curve is steep and its very hard to achieve anything or participate in the map early on, which is when you most need to particpate (for mastery exp)

I have played these maps a lot. But I still can’t get somewhere that I want about 40-80% of the time (depending on the map).

have to be more specific. dragon stand has event based lockout, but thats not due to map complexity.

i will say the exploration is deep, and takes many more replays before you master the map.

you figure out malachors leap in like hmmm 3 hours maybe? figuring out verdant brink or tangled depths takes much longer.

phys.7689:

slashlizardy.9167:

phys.7689:

Labjax.2465:

Dashingsteel.3410:

I agree partially that HoT is designed to be more challenging but I feel that is in regards to the enemies you face and some of the semi-platforming elements. I do not believe that Anet intended navigation to be more difficult.

The great majority of maps in core gw2 have navigation that is clear cut. The only maps in gw2 that aren’t are the grove, rata sum, and the black citadel. The reason they aren’t is that they are mutli-tiered just like the HoT maps.

This IS a problem of the minimap not being compatible with multitiered maps.

Why even offer a revealed map and minimap if you intend for your players to memorize and learn the map?? I don’t think Anet intended to change the game in this kind of direction.

I am not talking about an undiscovered map. I am talking about a map that has been fully explored and revealed already.

I think I see what you’re saying and I’m inclined to believe it. That they did not anticipate the issues of a multi-layered map in their mini-map design.

i think that yall have a point, but yall missed the real meaning.
some maps are not designed to be easy to navigate via map, theyvare designed to be consistent with themselves.

rata sum, is in fact designed to be extremely convient, IF you know rata sum well. its very poorly designed if you dont.

black citadelnis supposed to be designed by a race who places powerful and agressive designs over ease of use. char dont particularly feel things should be easy.

verdant brink is not supposed to be a designed area, its a natural jungle thrown asunder by a crazy dragon tree natural disaster.

and yes exploration has way more depth in hot than in other areas. there is way more hidden things, and its easy to get lost. part of the difficulty in hot is that knowing the map is a huuge advantage. i dont think thatbis unintentional.

but a side effect of making these complex areas, is that the map is not the best tool for navigating it.

but that is a lesser consideration than the map itself achieving its goals.

really you guys dont like the concept of verdant brink and tangled depths, verdant brink is supposed to be a wild lands, and tangled depths is labrynth like.

which is fine, while having a few maps like this is a good variety.
because its all packaged in one expansion, people feel like the expansion was a waste for them, if they have this opinion.

good news is i dont think the next expansion is about a similar thing. it most likely will focus on having a lot of stuff spread out, and the travel is about doing it faster and getting new places, over unlocking the secrets of a small complicated area.

That is good news. Where have you heard that the expac 2 maps are going to be more pleasurable for exploration?

its just an educated guess based on some leaks.

do note, it may be less pleasurable for exploration, thats subjective. in terms of exploration, id say HoT maps are the most pleasurable, they most reward knowledge and have tremendous replayability for those who explore.
there many ways to get too the same place, many secrets, etc.
compared to say arah, or queensdale, where after the first time ive basically figured the map out.

also glider interactions enhance it

i concede thats me though, some people prefer long walks on the beach to a lost city in jungle when it comes to what they d like to explore

the best attribute of vanilla maps to me, is that its easy to get to large events, but thats sorta the opposite of exploration. i just teleport, or follow mini map markers

this is the thing, its nice to have long walks, and complex map and large open areas – they all offer different gameplay styles. Hot is not an isolated thing, it is an extension to a virtual world that offers something different in comparison to other zones.

SepiaBrownie.7504:

As I’m diving more into HOT I’m realizing more of why people are complaining about difficulty. Don’t get me wrong, I like mobs having interesting mechanics and I like challenging maps. (although, I will admit HOT content is gett’in my sheeze but I think that’s because my gear isn’t that great) What I don’t like is being forced to learn certain things in a certain order in order to travel through the maps when before I didn’t have to. (aka the mastery system) I had choices on how I could do things in the other maps in the base game. While in these maps I don’t + if I want to learn certain mastery’s I HAVE to do them in HOT maps.

So far I feel like HOT stripped away a lot of the freedoms that the base game gave. So the difficulty and challenge isn’t really in the players hands anymore but game’s. Like before, if I wanted to do a dungeon, or a jumping puzzle (which I love). Those where challenges that are there and I can chose if I want to do them or not. If I didn’t want to, well, I wasn’t missing anything in terms of personal progression or story. Now, if I don’t do HOT maps. I’m missing not only personal story but also mastery points & features attached to those mastery points.

Idk, I think if they made it to where there wasn’t mastery points that you HAD the learn in HOT. I don’t think there would be as many complaints. ’cause than people can learn in other maps and than apply those skills in the HOT maps. Which would possibly make them easier to process for the player.

So after having played a bit more recently, I paid attention to how difficult the maps seemed. I compared my experiences now, (I think over a year later), to my experiences when I first played HoT with little to no masteries.

Note that before I quit playing a while back, I had unlocked all but leyline gliding, I’d unlocked nunoch wallows, bouncy mushrooms, and speed boost mushrooms.

What I found is that navigating around is much easier than the HoT I remember playing initially.

I also noticed that something as simple as having soldier’s gear on (which I had from finally using my level 80 boost token on a new char) made a significant difference in how easily I died. The zerker meta meant that a lot people went into HoT in full squish spec and gear.

The takeaway for me is:

1) To me, it offers more evidence for the idea you’re proposing that too much was tied to the masteries themselves. I don’t think the masteries ever should have been tied to essential navigation systems designed into the maps; rather, the masteries for HoT maps should have had more to do with zone-based bonuses or perks (or they could have just not had zone-specific masteries to begin with and made it all center around a central set of masteries). This probably would have been less immersive, but ultimately delivered a better gameplay experience out of the gate.

2) Gear has some issues. Namely: If you want to customize your appearance and not use an outfit, you have to use the transmutation system and so if you want to own more than one set of gear, you’re looking at a daunting situation for doing both appearance customization and gear setup. Then there’s bag space, of course… no one wants to lug around extra sets of gear.

The reason I bring this up as an issue is, the (what still seems to be standing) zerker meta means that most players are going to choose squish gear, so that they will be, on average, most effective, no matter what content they choose to go into. It is, in other words, the “standard” gear set. And with squish gear, you’re all that more likely to die from one or two mistakes in content like what HoT provides.

Or to put it another way: Survivability builds and gear are, one would think, the straightforward decision to make if one is going to be roaming around content like HoT maps a lot, alone. But it’s not necessarily as simple as “go make one.” Not only are builds themselves restricted by the need to unlock elite specs before you have your full range of builds, but by the time a fresh 80 player enters the actual HoT maps, they may have already carefully pieced together a set of orange zerker gear and spent transmutation charges on piecing together a custom appearance.

Now they are getting told, whether by another player or their own instincts, that they not only need to go revisit their whole set of gear… but they may also want to unlock their elite spec. Which partially means navigating the new zones, with no masteries, without their elite spec, to get access to the things that they feel, or are being told, are advisable to navigate the zones with.

Labjax, it may be because you took a break from the game but I can assure you that people that play higher end content can survive the jungle in zerker gear. The people who follow the meta tend to get zerker gear, but I have plenty of people in my guild who use other options, because it’s a casual guild. They didn’t have to change their armor at all.

A lot of it really is just knowing the enemy to survive.

Vayne.8563:

Labjax, it may be because you took a break from the game but I can assure you that people that play higher end content can survive the jungle in zerker gear. The people who follow the meta tend to get zerker gear, but I have plenty of people in my guild who use other options, because it’s a casual guild. They didn’t have to change their armor at all.

A lot of it really is just knowing the enemy to survive.

you can use zerker gear, but its pretty difficult. Not impossible, just more risk of death and waypoint back. Also, some times you get mobbed, some classes have better tools than others to survive without gear. basically you can use berserker, but you will die a lot when you are inexperienced with the level.

I’ll also say he is right about the masteries, its way easier to navigate with better gliding, access to mushrooms, and wallows. Early on its most difficult to navigate, at the same time you need the dynamic events that you dont know how to get to easily. When you have masteries, you can hop on a shroom, glide to an updraft, etc, but early on you have to take a longer roundabout path that is not nearly so obvious.

i’m not saying this must change, but i am saying that it is actually something where initially you hit a sort of bump, and you have to push through.

I will also say, the traditional method of finishing the whole map, that many people prefer, is not the best way to handle hot, you are better off going for easy things and dynamic quests you happen upon, and following/getting story exp to fill up mastery, than going for map completion in each place. This is because somethings are substantially easier to get to with masteries.
basically go through, complete story while doing moderate exploration and participation, then go back later and complete areas/focus on meta rewards etc. A couple of my friends front loaded their experience so it seemed more grindy and more like you have to grind to get stuff done.

Vayne.8563:

Labjax, it may be because you took a break from the game but I can assure you that people that play higher end content can survive the jungle in zerker gear. The people who follow the meta tend to get zerker gear, but I have plenty of people in my guild who use other options, because it’s a casual guild. They didn’t have to change their armor at all.

A lot of it really is just knowing the enemy to survive.

I was not intending to say that no one can survive in the jungle in zerker gear; probably 90% of my HoT play-time after launch and upon returning was in zerker gear, and masteries, I would argue, were a more significant factor overall in how well I navigated and survived, as the best form of gliding alone can do a lot for allowing you to simply avoid/bypass packs of mobs.

My meaning is that if one is struggling to survive in the jungle alone, part of the advice or conclusion would likely be to spec and/or gear differently, as it gives you a little more room to make mistakes, which is a much more palpable factor if you’re roaming solo. And that brings in problems with the difficulty in having multiple sets of gear in this game, as well as other factors I mentioned.

Note the emphasis on alone. As I’ve previously stated in the thread, the revive system trivializes most issues to do with trying to survive. And I didn’t mention this part before, but with the commander system and squads, being in a large group can mostly trivialize getting lost as well, provided the commander is keeping an eye out for stragglers.

Solo play is where these problems I’m describing are most felt. Same story with the ‘fight’ variant hero points in HoT; many of them possible to solo with the right class/build/skill, but certainly not built to accommodate the solo player. And that is what I’ve mostly been when I play GW2; solo play. I’ve done a lot of dynamic event content as well, but sometimes I just want to be on my own. GW2 prior to HoT accommodated that pretty distinctly in map exploration prior to HoT. I did every map completion in vanilla GW2 at one point or another and the only time that I can distinctly remember feeling like it was skirting on hard-limited for solo play was one HP in Orr and I think I ended up besting it solo anyway, with my Mesmer.

HoT ‘fight’ variant HPs are a whole other league. They are in the, “If you’re a master of defeating enemies solo in GW2 that aren’t supposed to be soloable then this will be a tuesday for you” league.

But I suppose this is really just a lot of words to say the same general thing: That HoT was a door slam for people like me who got joy out of solo map completion and aren’t masters of doing things you aren’t intended to be able to do.

And it’s still a door slam now, which is why I’ll probably have a little bit of fun in the feeling of freshness from being away and then leave again, as the hard-limited feeling starts setting in anew. I already got kind of miffed the other day that I wanted to unlock the elite spec on my 80 boost new character and had forgotten just how many HP points you need, if you go at it fresh. It’s even worse since I boosted and I didn’t get any dinky ones in leveling up along the way, in Central Tyria. So I boosted to 80 to meet a grind for my elite spec that I was looking forward to having as part of my character ASAP… that was an annoying feeling.

phys.7689:

Vayne.8563:

Labjax, it may be because you took a break from the game but I can assure you that people that play higher end content can survive the jungle in zerker gear. The people who follow the meta tend to get zerker gear, but I have plenty of people in my guild who use other options, because it’s a casual guild. They didn’t have to change their armor at all.

A lot of it really is just knowing the enemy to survive.

I’ll also say he is right about the masteries, its way easier to navigate with better gliding, access to mushrooms, and wallows. Early on its most difficult to navigate, at the same time you need the dynamic events that you dont know how to get to easily. When you have masteries, you can hop on a shroom, glide to an updraft, etc, but early on you have to take a longer roundabout path that is not nearly so obvious.

Starting in VB was a terrible idea. You start with basic gliding and when you run out of steam so much of the map has the vine floor that eats you. Or you might be up in the canopy when you run out. Its very disheartening that you often find nowhere to land that isn’t instant death. AB should be the intro map.

Djinn.9245:

phys.7689:

Vayne.8563:

Labjax, it may be because you took a break from the game but I can assure you that people that play higher end content can survive the jungle in zerker gear. The people who follow the meta tend to get zerker gear, but I have plenty of people in my guild who use other options, because it’s a casual guild. They didn’t have to change their armor at all.

A lot of it really is just knowing the enemy to survive.

I’ll also say he is right about the masteries, its way easier to navigate with better gliding, access to mushrooms, and wallows. Early on its most difficult to navigate, at the same time you need the dynamic events that you dont know how to get to easily. When you have masteries, you can hop on a shroom, glide to an updraft, etc, but early on you have to take a longer roundabout path that is not nearly so obvious.

Starting in VB was a terrible idea. You start with basic gliding and when you run out of steam so much of the map has the vine floor that eats you. Or you might be up in the canopy when you run out. Its very disheartening that you often find nowhere to land that isn’t instant death. AB should be the intro map.

What ? if you find yourself up in the canopy, most of what is below you is earth. In that case, you just let yourself fall down low enough to activate your glider in order to not take fall damage. And even when you realize you won’t have enough steam to not fall to your death, you can simply WP away in mid-air because you will be ooc.

Dashingsteel.3410:

I am not interested in playing navigation or maze games. I want maps that show me where to go.

That’s cool. I’m not interested in flat maps where reaching every objective is as simple as following a clearly marked path. To each their own. Personally, I’m glad ANet decided to offer maps for both of us.

I was really glad to see another vertical map released (bonus points for the new mastery!) with Draconis Mons. I was getting a bit worried after they followed up Bloodstone Fen with three flat maps.

I hope they’ll continue to offer vertical maps moving forward, and would especially like to see them outdo Tangled Depths with another exploration masterpiece in the next expansion. I think this is something GW2 does extremely well while other MMOs don’t even offer anything like it.

Djinn.9245:

Starting in VB was a terrible idea. You start with basic gliding and when you run out of steam so much of the map has the vine floor that eats you. Or you might be up in the canopy when you run out. Its very disheartening that you often find nowhere to land that isn’t instant death. AB should be the intro map.

I disagree. I think VB was the perfect map to start with. When you first enter VB you’re following the storyline where you just witnessed the fate of the pact. And then, there it is. Right in front of you in the open world. I thought that was really cool.

I also think VB is a great map for putting those early masteries to use. You definitely feel like you’re getting something out of your mastery points when you unlock those first few masteries. Not so much later on, where I feel there is too much filler in the mastery tree. It’s a playground for those masteries in the same way Draconis Mons gives you plenty of opportunities to put its unique mastery to use.

Clearly, you don’t enjoy this sort of gameplay so I suppose there was no such appeal to you. That’s too bad.

Djinn.9245:

phys.7689:

Vayne.8563:

Labjax, it may be because you took a break from the game but I can assure you that people that play higher end content can survive the jungle in zerker gear. The people who follow the meta tend to get zerker gear, but I have plenty of people in my guild who use other options, because it’s a casual guild. They didn’t have to change their armor at all.

A lot of it really is just knowing the enemy to survive.

I’ll also say he is right about the masteries, its way easier to navigate with better gliding, access to mushrooms, and wallows. Early on its most difficult to navigate, at the same time you need the dynamic events that you dont know how to get to easily. When you have masteries, you can hop on a shroom, glide to an updraft, etc, but early on you have to take a longer roundabout path that is not nearly so obvious.

Starting in VB was a terrible idea. You start with basic gliding and when you run out of steam so much of the map has the vine floor that eats you. Or you might be up in the canopy when you run out. Its very disheartening that you often find nowhere to land that isn’t instant death. AB should be the intro map.

yea, ab makes a lot more sense as a starter, i actually told my friends to skip to AB early, and come back to vb later

AliamRationem.5172:

Djinn.9245:

Starting in VB was a terrible idea. You start with basic gliding and when you run out of steam so much of the map has the vine floor that eats you. Or you might be up in the canopy when you run out. Its very disheartening that you often find nowhere to land that isn’t instant death. AB should be the intro map.

I disagree. I think VB was the perfect map to start with. When you first enter VB you’re following the storyline where you just witnessed the fate of the pact. And then, there it is. Right in front of you in the open world. I thought that was really cool.

I also think VB is a great map for putting those early masteries to use. You definitely feel like you’re getting something out of your mastery points when you unlock those first few masteries. Not so much later on, where I feel there is too much filler in the mastery tree. It’s a playground for those masteries in the same way Draconis Mons gives you plenty of opportunities to put its unique mastery to use.

Clearly, you don’t enjoy this sort of gameplay so I suppose there was no such appeal to you. That’s too bad.

it made sense storywise, but they made up the story.

and yes the first few are more impactful, but getting experience to unlock them in a map where dynamic events are all over the place with long winding paths (that you could get around if you had masteries) makes it suck.

it would be fine if masteries didnt require exp, then the progression would probably have been much more natural.

in fact i think that the descion to tie mastery to exp was much later in the process, and not properly accounted for in the design.

@AliamRationem…….. It seems to me that the community is split pretty evenly on vertical maps vs flat maps. While I don’t like vertical maps(because of its incompatibility with the minimap), I understand that a lot of people enjoy them.

I just don’t want future maps to be all vertical maps. I think at this point Anet would be well served mixing it up to keep both sides happy.

Anet……. PLEASE work on your minimap

Dashingsteel.3410:

@AliamRationem…….. It seems to me that the community is split pretty evenly on vertical maps vs flat maps. While I don’t like vertical maps(because of its incompatibility with the minimap), I understand that a lot of people enjoy them.

I just don’t want future maps to be all vertical maps. I think at this point Anet would be well served mixing it up to keep both sides happy.

Anet……. PLEASE work on your minimap

This.

I am not fond of the vertical maps but I know others are.

Ashen.2907:

Dashingsteel.3410:

@AliamRationem…….. It seems to me that the community is split pretty evenly on vertical maps vs flat maps. While I don’t like vertical maps(because of its incompatibility with the minimap), I understand that a lot of people enjoy them.

I just don’t want future maps to be all vertical maps. I think at this point Anet would be well served mixing it up to keep both sides happy.

Anet……. PLEASE work on your minimap

This.

I am not fond of the vertical maps but I know others are.

I love the vertical maps, but I agree, that there should be both types. The difference is flat maps don’t particularly bother me, I just find vertical maps more interesting.

But people who hate vertical maps are bothered by them, so the balance should probably lean more toward flat maps.

Hey, look at that! Agreement reached on an internet forum between several people with different outlooks? I guess there’s a first time for everything. I’m with you guys. I have my preferences, but I don’t need to have it all my way.

I think they’ve done a pretty good job of correcting with the map design in LS3. We now have 2:3 ratio in favor of flat maps. That’s probably (correct me if I’m wrong?) more palatable to players who prefer flat maps than the original HoT offerings.

As a player who prefers maps like Tangled Depths and Verdant Brink, I still consider the flat maps in LS3 better than any of the core Tyria offerings. But the vertical maps, while good, feel like map-lite. BF is a tiny map and DM feels full of unused space. Probably due to the time crunch. I hope to see something more like a TD in the next expansion.

The other problem I have with LS3 the reward pool feels too shallow. I want to spend time on these maps, but I don’t have a goal to work toward. The shared currency between maps (unbound magic) has potential, but I feel it’s being underutilized. This may relate to the time crunch, but perhaps it can be addressed after the storyline is completed.

AliamRationem.5172:

Hey, look at that! Agreement reached on an internet forum between several people with different outlooks? I guess there’s a first time for everything. I’m with you guys. I have my preferences, but I don’t need to have it all my way.

I think they’ve done a pretty good job of correcting with the map design in LS3. We now have 2:3 ratio in favor of flat maps. That’s probably (correct me if I’m wrong?) more palatable to players who prefer flat maps than the original HoT offerings.

As a player who prefers maps like Tangled Depths and Verdant Brink, I still consider the flat maps in LS3 better than any of the core Tyria offerings. But the vertical maps, while good, feel like map-lite. BF is a tiny map and DM feels full of unused space. Probably due to the time crunch. I hope to see something more like a TD in the next expansion.

The other problem I have with LS3 the reward pool feels too shallow. I want to spend time on these maps, but I don’t have a goal to work toward. The shared currency between maps (unbound magic) has potential, but I feel it’s being underutilized. This may relate to the time crunch, but perhaps it can be addressed after the storyline is completed.

I’m not so sure these maps are anything but transitional. It may be that Anet wants to keep people there more minimally to keep people in core, hot and the new expansion. They may not be designed to be infinitely replayable.

Because I have so many characters, I end up doing story and map complete on a lot of them. I keep getting currency, I’m always in the new zones, and I’m always doing something different.

The thing is, HOT is still as active as it is, partially because the zones to require you to live in them.

Can I have all your stuff?

AliamRationem.5172:

Hey, look at that! Agreement reached on an internet forum between several people with different outlooks? I guess there’s a first time for everything. I’m with you guys. I have my preferences, but I don’t need to have it all my way.

I think they’ve done a pretty good job of correcting with the map design in LS3. We now have 2:3 ratio in favor of flat maps. That’s probably (correct me if I’m wrong?) more palatable to players who prefer flat maps than the original HoT offerings.

As a player who prefers maps like Tangled Depths and Verdant Brink, I still consider the flat maps in LS3 better than any of the core Tyria offerings. But the vertical maps, while good, feel like map-lite. BF is a tiny map and DM feels full of unused space. Probably due to the time crunch. I hope to see something more like a TD in the next expansion.

The other problem I have with LS3 the reward pool feels too shallow. I want to spend time on these maps, but I don’t have a goal to work toward. The shared currency between maps (unbound magic) has potential, but I feel it’s being underutilized. This may relate to the time crunch, but perhaps it can be addressed after the storyline is completed.

that’s it in a nutshell, having a ratio of maps where the majority is flat but there is complex maps in the mix is reasonable and fair and gives everyone what they want. This is why someone arguing about a zone in isolation and asserting the whole game is ruined is not getting what a mmorpg is about. The virtual world as a cohesive whole, not just the latest extension that you happen to like/dislike. Part of this viewpoint is a learned behavior from older mmorpg where latest expansion = rest of world is killed off i suspect, but that’s not the case in GW2.

I do not have any of the problems the OP has with HOT. I am having a lot of fun and the challenge is really great and doable IMO. I do not hope they will nerf it because of players like OP.

vesica tempestas.1563:

AliamRationem.5172:

Hey, look at that! Agreement reached on an internet forum between several people with different outlooks? I guess there’s a first time for everything. I’m with you guys. I have my preferences, but I don’t need to have it all my way.

I think they’ve done a pretty good job of correcting with the map design in LS3. We now have 2:3 ratio in favor of flat maps. That’s probably (correct me if I’m wrong?) more palatable to players who prefer flat maps than the original HoT offerings.

As a player who prefers maps like Tangled Depths and Verdant Brink, I still consider the flat maps in LS3 better than any of the core Tyria offerings. But the vertical maps, while good, feel like map-lite. BF is a tiny map and DM feels full of unused space. Probably due to the time crunch. I hope to see something more like a TD in the next expansion.

The other problem I have with LS3 the reward pool feels too shallow. I want to spend time on these maps, but I don’t have a goal to work toward. The shared currency between maps (unbound magic) has potential, but I feel it’s being underutilized. This may relate to the time crunch, but perhaps it can be addressed after the storyline is completed.

that’s it in a nutshell, having a ratio of maps where the majority is flat but there is complex maps in the mix is reasonable and fair and gives everyone what they want. This is why someone arguing about a zone in isolation and asserting the whole game is ruined is not getting what a mmorpg is about. The virtual world as a cohesive whole, not just the latest extension that you happen to like/dislike. Part of this viewpoint is a learned behavior from older mmorpg where latest expansion = rest of world is killed off i suspect, but that’s not the case in GW2.

Not sure why you are accusing someone of “not getting” MMOs when they are simply expressing their opinion. Even if it is true that the world is a cohesive whole (not sure I agree, if a fantasy MMO suddenly introduced spaceships, for instance), that doesn’t mean that someone can’t have an opinion that certain added content ruined it for that person.

Djinn.9245:

vesica tempestas.1563:

AliamRationem.5172:

Hey, look at that! Agreement reached on an internet forum between several people with different outlooks? I guess there’s a first time for everything. I’m with you guys. I have my preferences, but I don’t need to have it all my way.

I think they’ve done a pretty good job of correcting with the map design in LS3. We now have 2:3 ratio in favor of flat maps. That’s probably (correct me if I’m wrong?) more palatable to players who prefer flat maps than the original HoT offerings.

As a player who prefers maps like Tangled Depths and Verdant Brink, I still consider the flat maps in LS3 better than any of the core Tyria offerings. But the vertical maps, while good, feel like map-lite. BF is a tiny map and DM feels full of unused space. Probably due to the time crunch. I hope to see something more like a TD in the next expansion.

The other problem I have with LS3 the reward pool feels too shallow. I want to spend time on these maps, but I don’t have a goal to work toward. The shared currency between maps (unbound magic) has potential, but I feel it’s being underutilized. This may relate to the time crunch, but perhaps it can be addressed after the storyline is completed.

that’s it in a nutshell, having a ratio of maps where the majority is flat but there is complex maps in the mix is reasonable and fair and gives everyone what they want. This is why someone arguing about a zone in isolation and asserting the whole game is ruined is not getting what a mmorpg is about. The virtual world as a cohesive whole, not just the latest extension that you happen to like/dislike. Part of this viewpoint is a learned behavior from older mmorpg where latest expansion = rest of world is killed off i suspect, but that’s not the case in GW2.

Not sure why you are accusing someone of “not getting” MMOs when they are simply expressing their opinion. Even if it is true that the world is a cohesive whole (not sure I agree, if a fantasy MMO suddenly introduced spaceships, for instance), that doesn’t mean that someone can’t have an opinion that certain added content ruined it for that person.

I agree with this. Everyone can have an opinion whether they get MMOs or not. Of course, some opinions may be unreasonable and some may be perfectly reasonable, but it doesn’t stop people from having those opinions.

In a case like Guild Wars 2, it’s understandable that people have opinions about HOT, because it is a significant change from the game they’d loved all along.

For some of us, it’s fine because we played harder content all along, and so it wasn’t such a huge different. And maybe some of us all played a lot of Tombraider (like me) and so the maze thing is second nature to me, and actually quite enjoyable.

Change comes to all MMOs, but sudden change is going to leave a percentage of people feeling disenfranchised, particularly if they don’t like the direction of the change.

That’s always been the issue with HOT. For some people it was too much too fast.

One of the things I haven’t seen people mention yet is that new players are likely to click their 80 ticket and get dropped in the silverwastes. They’ll end up with a class they like and head into the expansion content because ‘Hey, the game’s pointing them there’.

And get stomped.

The expansion did some things right, but the 80 tickets and the way new players are automatically handed keys (and transported to) the hardest content was a very bad idea.

I can back to the game after years recently to try the expansion at a lower price.

I’m shocked to see that it’s almost as bad as I always thought the expansion might be (hence avoid it for so long.)

I’ll give the Specializations credit for being genuinely nice to have… however earning them for many alts is a joke. Run around getting them is a basically map completion challenge… and that used to be optional in Guild Wars 2.

Also I don’t find it has any challenge, unlike others. It’s the same zerg content of the living story. Meaning you either have people wrecking the content but reaping the rewards, or not enough people to do anything at all. It’s very awkward, unfortunately. It’s not as bad as Orr on release of the game… that was ridiculous. But it’s somewhere in the realm of a slightly worse Living Story map, except these maps were all made big and empty for the glider, while the glider is not actually very interesting in itself.

Metas are just metas. You want a gold farm… do it every day. It’s still a farm really, at the end of the day, they just sanctioned it.

The worst thing though, is story mode. I’m baffled they released this. Nothing works right with it, there are a million glitches and walk off this piece of scenery and get stuck moments, and unlike the ancient past of Guild Wars 1… there’s nothing to do in story mode. You remember when in Guild Wars 1 they had maps with hundreds of custom patrols of enemies, mini bosses, story moments, the works. Now you get literally the same mob of enemies every single time on a map through an entire expansion, no real patrols or paths, and basically no work was done to make these missions in comparison. And hey did you know the sniper lays down a path that does massive damage and is in almost every mob, because you might forget that this enemy does that? Don’t worry, you’ll remember, because it’s basically the only gameplay mechanic you encounter through the story, over and over and over.

/end of rant. Look I want Anet to do cool stuff, so criticism is one place they can look to. Maybe they have and are thinking of ways to really get things better next time. I sure hope so.

I’d like to say that I too have decided to give up after just a short time with the Heart of Thorns expansion. I loved the main game. Yes, the fights are tougher in HOT, but that wasn’t what really drove me away from the game.

It’s the zones. Gawd, I hate the zones to no end. Why do MMO expansions always screw up the game with horrible zones? I don’t like playing mario bros. If I wanted to play that I would. I don’t want my entire game focus with maps revolving around magic bouncing mushrooms and other platformer crap like that. The jumping puzzles were bad enough in the main game, but at least I could ignore them. But not with the expansion. Now that is a main focus. No thank you. The zones gave me a headache and I felt I spent so much time trying to move around the map instead of actually accomplishing anything at all. Bored out of my mind.

I’m sick and tired of finding an MMO I enjoy, only to see the first expansion fundamentally change the game I was playing. It happened with LOTRO with Moria and beyond. It happened with tokyo in The Secret World (kitten you aegis). It happened in Rifts with their stupid alien landscapes. So many others too. Stop kittening up your games and just give us more of the game we came to play.

HOT came out a hear and a half ago, some like it some don’t. However, there’s been a year and a half of discussions and posts and videos and reviews. There comes a time when you are responsible for your own choices in life. If you bought a game you don’t like that doesn’t make the game bad, that meas you made a poor choice. If you don’t like a wide range of products in a genre then maybe just maybe your tastes have changed and that genre aint for you anymore.

I think Skor.4652 has a valid point. His tastes haven’t changed the product has(obviously Skor favored flat maps to multitiered maps).

Dashingsteel.3410:

I think Skor.4652 has a valid point. His tastes haven’t changed the product has(obviously Skor favored flat maps to multitiered maps).

And there are tons of flat maps and very very few multitiered ones. I’ve offered (and very very rarely have people on these forums accept) to take people around the HoT maps free of charge, and show them how to navigate them and deal with some of the harder foes.

The maps aren’t nearly as hard as people make them out to be. They are an adjustment, that’s for sure, but there are people who did take me up on that offer that no longer have a problem with HOT maps.

I’ve made my way around the vertical maps and I still don’t enjoy them as much as flat maps. I think Skor.4652 finds vertical maps at their very essence less enjoyable than flat maps. Again, it is a matter of game taste.

Skor’s tastes didn’t change the product changed.

vesica tempestas.1563:

HOT came out a hear and a half ago, some like it some don’t. However, there’s been a year and a half of discussions and posts and videos and reviews. There comes a time when you are responsible for your own choices in life. If you bought a game you don’t like that doesn’t make the game bad, that meas you made a poor choice. If you don’t like a wide range of products in a genre then maybe just maybe your tastes have changed and that genre aint for you anymore.

For your information, I bought the game when it first came out. I played it a while and then shelved it. Finally I got back into it. I didn’t think the expansion would be so vastly different from the main game. But yes, from the mmo track record of kittenty expansions, I should have done some research before buying it or investing any time into the original game again.

Pick any facet of a product in isolation and you will find things you like and dislike.

As for Skor, LOTR, Rift, GW2, TSW… ‘I’m sick and tired of finding an MMO I enjoy’.

At some point you need to work out for yourself why you are not happy.