Guild Wars 2

it comes down to state of mind, self awareness and what you get out of games, for e.g for me:

GW2, gorgeous, like the style of horizontal progression, not intertested in raids, good pvp for me.
ESO : gorgeous, great PVE, Good housing, Server performance kills pvp, so i ignore it and pve only.
LOTR, great atmosphere.

WOW : foul atmosphere for me, I bough WOD, my bad i should have known better. I get some people like that style of game.

etc etc.

No game is perfect, especially mmorpg with different customers to satisfy.

Of course no game is perfect, but I believe that the complaint was that someone finds a game they like and then an expansion comes along an fundamentally changes the game in such a manner that it is no longer enjoyable.

What is wrong in asking or expecting for more of the same in an expansion?

The issue is that you will always find fault if you pick things out in isolation. There are 37 zones in GW2, 3 have verticality that is complained about. 90 % of the maps are flat, the the latest maps in HOT are flat. some people enjoy having 8% of the maps that are not flat. GW2 did not become a bad product because someone doesn’t like 8% of the maps.

Now add on that, one of the posters also doesn’t like changes in LOTR, RIFT, TSW as well and you have a pattern there and 1 common factor.

To give an analogy, I love Pink Floyd, I didn’t like their last album so much. That doesn’t mean Pink floyd has to change or are suddenly neglecting me, it just means i didn’t like their last creation. Pink Floyd making Dark side of the moon 2 is not going to happen.

Dashingsteel.3410:

Of course no game is perfect, but I believe that the complaint was that someone finds a game they like and then an expansion comes along an fundamentally changes the game in such a manner that it is no longer enjoyable.

What is wrong in asking or expecting for more of the same in an expansion?

Thats where it hit most of my guild.

I recently quit PvP all together since it feels alot like spam now and i cant even counter argue myself into believing it isnt anymore.

But earlier this week alot of my guild mates got on discord. We jumped into WvW together. 2-3 ran vanilla builds and 2-3 HOT builds.

The ones running core builds would go silent in team fights from the DH traps and the OP necro damage with mesmer wells.

This game has so drastically changed from what alot of people liked. I myself still play the story line and the guild members still playing asked me to come in and try the new mastery spider man skill.

I couldnt, I have near 29k AP and ive played HOT. Just not done alot of the DS and AB stuff since i dont like those maps. I dont have enough Mastery points to unlock the spider man skill.

I finished the recent story line and i played the map which i actually like. But im still 3 MP short which means if i want it, go back and do some HOT content i dont like.

You can actually say that if you like core GW2, you might not like HOT. And vice versa that if you like HOT GW2 that core GW2 might be a little slow for ya.

vesica tempestas.1563:

The issue is that you will always find fault if you pick things out in isolation. There are 37 zones in GW2, 3 have verticality that is complained about. 90 % of the maps are flat, the the latest maps in HOT are flat. some people enjoy having 8% of the maps that are not flat. GW2 did not become a bad product because someone doesn’t like 8% of the maps.

Now add on that, one of the posters also doesn’t like changes in LOTR, RIFT, TSW as well and you have a pattern there and 1 common factor.

Stop trying to be a shrink. That is condescending and rude.

To expand on the analogy let’s say that after dark side of the moon Pink Floyd decided to make a hip-hop album

Skor.4652:

vesica tempestas.1563:

The issue is that you will always find fault if you pick things out in isolation. There are 37 zones in GW2, 3 have verticality that is complained about. 90 % of the maps are flat, the the latest maps in HOT are flat. some people enjoy having 8% of the maps that are not flat. GW2 did not become a bad product because someone doesn’t like 8% of the maps.

Now add on that, one of the posters also doesn’t like changes in LOTR, RIFT, TSW as well and you have a pattern there and 1 common factor.

Stop trying to be a shrink. That is condescending and rude.

That doesn’t make sense.

Dashingsteel.3410:

To expand on the analogy let’s say that after dark side of the moon Pink Floyd decided to make a hip-hop album

well then i wouldn’t buy their next album, it doesn’t appeal to me anymore, unless i like the creative direction they took.

GW is a product with many different types of player, all with evolving tastes, you will NEVER be able to keep everyone happy. I would say that stagnation and no change is not the answer to keeping a gaming audiences happy.

The idea of an expansion is change(new lands, new stories, new encounters, new armors and weapons, new races, etc…….. These things keep the game from stagnating

I am just not in favor of reworking the game into something else(majority flat map game turned into majority vertical map game in expansion, influence based guild turned into mat and gold sink based guild system, etc.)

I was looking for a more content oriented expansion than a game rework expansion

Dashingsteel.3410:

Of course no game is perfect, but I believe that the complaint was that someone finds a game they like and then an expansion comes along an fundamentally changes the game in such a manner that it is no longer enjoyable.

What is wrong in asking or expecting for more of the same in an expansion?

I don’t think the expansion is substantially different than the game before the expansion, except maybe in the complexity of zones. But I play the expansion exactly the same way I played the core game. It’s harder, but then I expected that since we were told it would be harder and because it was meant to be end game content because there was never enough of it.

I remember when EoTN came out a lot of people found that hard, but it was made to be end game content. I’m not sure why people didn’t think it would be more difficult.

But there’s been a consistent change in the game since day one. Living story got harder. Drytop is a map that’s more vertical and Southsun, Drytop and Silverwastes all are harder than any of the core maps. I bet it’s just as hard to solo a fort defense in the Silverwastes as it is to clear an enemy camp in VB night.

The fact is, the game has been changing, and people simply didn’t notice it.

If you played instances like Fractals you were probably more ready for the changes.

But people who solo, don’t get involved in the community or other aspects of the game, this all came as quite a shock to them.

But even back in the day, the Marionette fight was far harder than core Tyria and Triple Thread requires more coordination than anything in HoT but raids.

Just to clear it up none of my complaints have to do with enemy difficulty.

Dashingsteel.3410:

The idea of an expansion is change(new lands, new stories, new encounters, new armors and weapons, new races, etc…….. These things keep the game from stagnating

I am just not in favor of reworking the game into something else(majority flat map game turned into majority vertical map game in expansion, influence based guild turned into mat and gold sink based guild system, etc.)

I was looking for a more content oriented expansion than a game rework expansion

what your really saying is, you want change, but you want change to be exactly how you would envisage that change to look, which is fine, you will either be disappointed or pleased with a given expansion depending on what you are looking for. What Anet cannot do is please all of the people all of the time with change. Having 3 maps out of 37 with some verticality is not a fundamental change, it is still a horizontal mmorpg with pvp and pve and wvw.

vesica tempestas.1563:

The issue is that you will always find fault if you pick things out in isolation. There are 37 zones in GW2, 3 have verticality that is complained about. 90 % of the maps are flat, the the latest maps in HOT are flat. some people enjoy having 8% of the maps that are not flat. GW2 did not become a bad product because someone doesn’t like 8% of the maps.

Now add on that, one of the posters also doesn’t like changes in LOTR, RIFT, TSW as well and you have a pattern there and 1 common factor.

To give an analogy, I love Pink Floyd, I didn’t like their last album so much. That doesn’t mean Pink floyd has to change or are suddenly neglecting me, it just means i didn’t like their last creation. Pink Floyd making Dark side of the moon 2 is not going to happen.

No, the issue is that GW2 chose to do something different and for some people it missed the mark. I enjoyed every episode of Buffy the Vampire Slayer and can’t find any significant fault in the series. That is my assessment of it. I also would make a pretty confident argument that it stayed true to what it was from start to finish.

It’s not impossible to do that. Just because some creators choose to switch things up mid-stream doesn’t mean people are screwed up to ask them not to.

Also, your album analogy doesn’t make sense because GW2 is all the same album. A different album would be more like if we were comparing GW1 and GW2. But even then, using an album as an analogy doesn’t work very well. An album is something you make and then release, and that’s it. An MMO is a living, breathing virtual world and community that evolves over time. Expansions are chunks of content all at once, but they are still part of that same evolving process as part of the same game.

And because it’s an evolving process, there is usually more tolerance for change than, say, a TV series. But people usually still get attached to whatever the fundamentals are to them.

Labjax.2465:

vesica tempestas.1563:

The issue is that you will always find fault if you pick things out in isolation. There are 37 zones in GW2, 3 have verticality that is complained about. 90 % of the maps are flat, the the latest maps in HOT are flat. some people enjoy having 8% of the maps that are not flat. GW2 did not become a bad product because someone doesn’t like 8% of the maps.

Now add on that, one of the posters also doesn’t like changes in LOTR, RIFT, TSW as well and you have a pattern there and 1 common factor.

To give an analogy, I love Pink Floyd, I didn’t like their last album so much. That doesn’t mean Pink floyd has to change or are suddenly neglecting me, it just means i didn’t like their last creation. Pink Floyd making Dark side of the moon 2 is not going to happen.

No, the issue is that GW2 chose to do something different and for some people it missed the mark. I enjoyed every episode of Buffy the Vampire Slayer and can’t find any significant fault in the series. That is my assessment of it. I also would make a pretty confident argument that it stayed true to what it was from start to finish.

It’s not impossible to do that. Just because some creators choose to switch things up mid-stream doesn’t mean people are screwed up to ask them not to.

Also, your album analogy doesn’t make sense because GW2 is all the same album. A different album would be more like if we were comparing GW1 and GW2. But even then, using an album as an analogy doesn’t work very well. An album is something you make and then release, and that’s it. An MMO is a living, breathing virtual world and community that evolves over time. Expansions are chunks of content all at once, but they are still part of that same evolving process as part of the same game.

And because it’s an evolving process, there is usually more tolerance for change than, say, a TV series. But people usually still get attached to whatever the fundamentals are to them.

’An MMO is a living, breathing virtual world and community that evolves over time. Expansions are chunks of content all at once, but they are still part of that same evolving process as part of the same game. ’

EXACTLY correct, and GW2 has 37 zones.

‘I or we don’t like a thing’ does not mean everyone does not like a thing. You will never satisfy all the people all of the time. This will always be the case in mmorpg – case in point the guy that didn’t like change in LOTR, RIFT, GW2, TSW.

I don’t agree….. I think HoT was a massive change from core gw2……. This has nothing to do with difficulty of enemies…… The game became more of a player vs map game. The HoT maps have an obstacle course feel to them…………

Not to mention the many changes of other components(guild influence system changed, gated content, nintento style adventures, farming requirements increased from core game)

vesica tempestas.1563:

Labjax.2465:

vesica tempestas.1563:

The issue is that you will always find fault if you pick things out in isolation. There are 37 zones in GW2, 3 have verticality that is complained about. 90 % of the maps are flat, the the latest maps in HOT are flat. some people enjoy having 8% of the maps that are not flat. GW2 did not become a bad product because someone doesn’t like 8% of the maps.

Now add on that, one of the posters also doesn’t like changes in LOTR, RIFT, TSW as well and you have a pattern there and 1 common factor.

To give an analogy, I love Pink Floyd, I didn’t like their last album so much. That doesn’t mean Pink floyd has to change or are suddenly neglecting me, it just means i didn’t like their last creation. Pink Floyd making Dark side of the moon 2 is not going to happen.

No, the issue is that GW2 chose to do something different and for some people it missed the mark. I enjoyed every episode of Buffy the Vampire Slayer and can’t find any significant fault in the series. That is my assessment of it. I also would make a pretty confident argument that it stayed true to what it was from start to finish.

It’s not impossible to do that. Just because some creators choose to switch things up mid-stream doesn’t mean people are screwed up to ask them not to.

Also, your album analogy doesn’t make sense because GW2 is all the same album. A different album would be more like if we were comparing GW1 and GW2. But even then, using an album as an analogy doesn’t work very well. An album is something you make and then release, and that’s it. An MMO is a living, breathing virtual world and community that evolves over time. Expansions are chunks of content all at once, but they are still part of that same evolving process as part of the same game.

And because it’s an evolving process, there is usually more tolerance for change than, say, a TV series. But people usually still get attached to whatever the fundamentals are to them.

’An MMO is a living, breathing virtual world and community that evolves over time. Expansions are chunks of content all at once, but they are still part of that same evolving process as part of the same game. ’

EXACTLY correct, and GW2 has 37 zones.

‘I or we don’t like a thing’ does not mean everyone does not like a thing. You will never satisfy all the people all of the time. This will always be the case in mmorpg – case in point the guy that didn’t like change in LOTR, RIFT, GW2, TSW.

Like I said though:

But people usually still get attached to whatever the fundamentals are to them.

Just because MMOs evolve doesn’t mean they have a get-out-of-jail-free artistic card that allows them to change on a fundamental level, while staying above criticism. People still generally don’t like change.

What you’re saying is an irrelevant copout. Of course art can’t please everyone. That’s beside the point. What usually matters is that you try to please the same people that you pleased in the first place, especially if they’re long-time fans, and in particular in a situation where you’re still within the same, fundamental title. Not necessarily for the purpose of pleasing those people, exactly, but for the purpose of staying true to an overarching vision.

GW2’s overarching vision is muddled in what has been made. It’s like a game that wanted to be for hardcore players and then marketed itself to casual play and then doubled down on the marketing and became a mostly casual experience, but never left its hardcore roots behind and, later (HoT), doubled down on its hardcore roots, estranging a portion of its casual playerbase in the process.

If its history is any indication of a pattern, it’ll probably swing back in the next expansion and go the casual route again. Or if they’re sticking to it at this point, they might double down on the hardcore roots even more.

Dashingsteel.3410:

The idea of an expansion is change(new lands, new stories, new encounters, new armors and weapons, new races, etc…….. These things keep the game from stagnating

I am just not in favor of reworking the game into something else(majority flat map game turned into majority vertical map game in expansion, influence based guild turned into mat and gold sink based guild system, etc.)

I was looking for a more content oriented expansion than a game rework expansion

That is the problem I would say personally. You expected a content oriented expansion while they announced it would be a feature oriented expansion. You can blame all you want vertical nature of the map, the fact is it needed to justify the new systems (a.k.a masteries) that were brought with the expansion.

GW2 has not fundamentally changed, it is fundamentally a fantasy mmorpg with pvp pve and wvw.

People like HOT, thats a fact. The game will change over time, that is a fact. The game evolves and the devs try to predict what players want next.

Some people play the parts they like and avoid those that don’t. Others see demons in the walls and complain.

vesica tempestas.1563:

Others see demons in the walls and complain.

So a moment ago it was “you can’t please everyone,” now it’s “some see demons in the walls.” Or are you going to tell me that the only reason a creator can’t please everyone is because some people insist on not liking what you like?

What it comes down to is Vesica just doesn’t like the fact that others have something negative to say about his ‘favorite thing’ that he has so much loyalty to that it could never be faulty in any way. Some people are like that. They will defend their ‘thing’ to the very end. It’s a very partisan existence.

It’s very simple. When a product I buy changes its formula that is very different from what it was, I don’t buy it anymore. Just like corn nuts and brummels and brown. I used to love them, but they changed (for the worse to me). So now they don’t get my money.

Now you will have people defend corn nuts and brummels and brown and attack anyone who might point this out and claim that people should expect those recipes to change and just adjust and keep buying them. But that product no longer meets my tastes and somehow I’m the one that expects too much. Bashing people like me doesn’t help your favorite ‘thing’ as the customer base shrinks. You are not doing it any favors. And yet you want to insinuate that I’m the one with some sort of psychological issue.

“Others see demons in the wall and complain”

I get it. To try to win your argument you are going to use a snarky comment to make anyone who disagrees with you appear to be out of touch with reality or a nonsensical troublemaker.

vesica tempestas.1563:

Pick any facet of a product in isolation and you will find things you like and dislike.

There is a huge difference between core Tyria and HoT. HoT was added to GW2, it is not inherent to the original game. Some people are clearly stating that they don’t like what was added. CocaCola changed Original Coke to New Coke. Customers expressed their dislike and it was changed back. I don’t expect Anet to remove HoT but there is nothing wrong with expressing your dislike of a change.

vesica tempestas.1563:

As for Skor, LOTR, Rift, GW2, TSW… ‘I’m sick and tired of finding an MMO I enjoy’.

At some point you need to work out for yourself why you are not happy.

If you look at the entire sentence, you will be able to see that he already said why he was not happy:

Skor.4652:

I’m sick and tired of finding an MMO I enjoy, only to see the first expansion fundamentally change the game I was playing.

Dashingsteel.3410:

I don’t agree….. I think HoT was a massive change from core gw2……. This has nothing to do with difficulty of enemies…… The game became more of a player vs map game. The HoT maps have an obstacle course feel to them…………

Not to mention the many changes of other components(guild influence system changed, gated content, nintento style adventures, farming requirements increased from core game)

That sort of stuff existed in the game from day one. Vistas at the end of jumping puzzles is the easiest example. That was player vs. map.

The anti was upped in Dry Top which is absolutely player vs. map.

It’s not like this suddenly happened with HoT.

Hell even South Sun showed signs of it and that was released only months after the game came out.

The difference is in HoT the entire map feels like an obstacle course….. I will grant you Dry Top seemed transitional…….. but none of the other core maps come close to the player vs map rigor that goes with HoT

Vayne.8563:

Dashingsteel.3410:

I don’t agree….. I think HoT was a massive change from core gw2……. This has nothing to do with difficulty of enemies…… The game became more of a player vs map game. The HoT maps have an obstacle course feel to them…………

Not to mention the many changes of other components(guild influence system changed, gated content, nintento style adventures, farming requirements increased from core game)

That sort of stuff existed in the game from day one. Vistas at the end of jumping puzzles is the easiest example. That was player vs. map.

The anti was upped in Dry Top which is absolutely player vs. map.

It’s not like this suddenly happened with HoT.

Hell even South Sun showed signs of it and that was released only months after the game came out.

Not even close. If I didn’t want to do a jumping puzzle, it didn’t impact my game progression at all. Almost all vistas were easy to get to and didn’t really require the same amount of mario bros skills that HOT maps do.

So something that was rare and optional became constant and required in the expansion.

Skor.4652:

Vayne.8563:

Dashingsteel.3410:

I don’t agree….. I think HoT was a massive change from core gw2……. This has nothing to do with difficulty of enemies…… The game became more of a player vs map game. The HoT maps have an obstacle course feel to them…………

Not to mention the many changes of other components(guild influence system changed, gated content, nintento style adventures, farming requirements increased from core game)

That sort of stuff existed in the game from day one. Vistas at the end of jumping puzzles is the easiest example. That was player vs. map.

The anti was upped in Dry Top which is absolutely player vs. map.

It’s not like this suddenly happened with HoT.

Hell even South Sun showed signs of it and that was released only months after the game came out.

Not even close. If I didn’t want to do a jumping puzzle, it didn’t impact my game progression at all. Almost all vistas were easy to get to and didn’t really require the same amount of mario bros skills that HOT maps do.

So something that was rare and optional became constant and required in the expansion.

With the exception of adventures. there are virtually no mario brothers skills to get through HoT maps. Those who say there are didn’t spend long enough on those maps.

You can pretty much walk to most places. Jumping mushrooms require very very very little skill. If you can jump on the mushroom it places you were you want to be.

The fact is this oft repeated platforming claim has very little to back it up. I can walk you from one end of VB to the other. At night choppers land to take you to the canopy. You need to interact with a rope to get there.

AB is even less of a platforming experience. It’s mostly a flat map.

DS doesn’t have any platforming, except a single hero point.

It’s easy to say something. If you don’t believe me, get into the game and I’ll show you how little platforming actually exists.

Dashingsteel.3410:

The difference is in HoT the entire map feels like an obstacle course….. I will grant you Dry Top seemed transitional…….. but none of the other core maps come close to the player vs map rigor that goes with HoT

What obstacles are you talking about specifically. I don’t remember any obstacles. I know there are jumping mushrooms. I know there are updrafts. I’m not sure how that’s an obstacle course. This is particularly true of AB, but all the zones have relatively easy ways to get around them.

I don’t recall anything as bad as the vizier’s tower, for example. Or even the Breached Wall or the Scaffolding JP in Dredgehaunt, which you need to do to get to a vista.

Vayne.8563:

Skor.4652:

Vayne.8563:

Dashingsteel.3410:

I don’t agree….. I think HoT was a massive change from core gw2……. This has nothing to do with difficulty of enemies…… The game became more of a player vs map game. The HoT maps have an obstacle course feel to them…………

Not to mention the many changes of other components(guild influence system changed, gated content, nintento style adventures, farming requirements increased from core game)

That sort of stuff existed in the game from day one. Vistas at the end of jumping puzzles is the easiest example. That was player vs. map.

The anti was upped in Dry Top which is absolutely player vs. map.

It’s not like this suddenly happened with HoT.

Hell even South Sun showed signs of it and that was released only months after the game came out.

Not even close. If I didn’t want to do a jumping puzzle, it didn’t impact my game progression at all. Almost all vistas were easy to get to and didn’t really require the same amount of mario bros skills that HOT maps do.

So something that was rare and optional became constant and required in the expansion.

With the exception of adventures. there are virtually no mario brothers skills to get through HoT maps. Those who say there are didn’t spend long enough on those maps.

You can pretty much walk to most places. Jumping mushrooms require very very very little skill. If you can jump on the mushroom it places you were you want to be.

The fact is this oft repeated platforming claim has very little to back it up. I can walk you from one end of VB to the other. At night choppers land to take you to the canopy. You need to interact with a rope to get there.

AB is even less of a platforming experience. It’s mostly a flat map.

DS doesn’t have any platforming, except a single hero point.

It’s easy to say something. If you don’t believe me, get into the game and I’ll show you how little platforming actually exists.

Hmmm… If I may step in, it appears the issue here is not one of difficulty. The mushroom in question is a time gate in that: you are intentionally spending more time then necessary to do something. Map shortcuts are cool and interesting when you can use them, but when you have to grind for something as simple as not taking the stairs (while other people just jump past you) it tends to put the elevator in a negative light.

And, to reply in advance to the ‘level masteries’ response that’s been popping up recently: Grinding takes time and effort, and is not as fun part of games.

Finalfreefall.8247:

Vayne.8563:

Skor.4652:

Vayne.8563:

Dashingsteel.3410:

I don’t agree….. I think HoT was a massive change from core gw2……. This has nothing to do with difficulty of enemies…… The game became more of a player vs map game. The HoT maps have an obstacle course feel to them…………

Not to mention the many changes of other components(guild influence system changed, gated content, nintento style adventures, farming requirements increased from core game)

That sort of stuff existed in the game from day one. Vistas at the end of jumping puzzles is the easiest example. That was player vs. map.

The anti was upped in Dry Top which is absolutely player vs. map.

It’s not like this suddenly happened with HoT.

Hell even South Sun showed signs of it and that was released only months after the game came out.

Not even close. If I didn’t want to do a jumping puzzle, it didn’t impact my game progression at all. Almost all vistas were easy to get to and didn’t really require the same amount of mario bros skills that HOT maps do.

So something that was rare and optional became constant and required in the expansion.

With the exception of adventures. there are virtually no mario brothers skills to get through HoT maps. Those who say there are didn’t spend long enough on those maps.

You can pretty much walk to most places. Jumping mushrooms require very very very little skill. If you can jump on the mushroom it places you were you want to be.

The fact is this oft repeated platforming claim has very little to back it up. I can walk you from one end of VB to the other. At night choppers land to take you to the canopy. You need to interact with a rope to get there.

AB is even less of a platforming experience. It’s mostly a flat map.

DS doesn’t have any platforming, except a single hero point.

It’s easy to say something. If you don’t believe me, get into the game and I’ll show you how little platforming actually exists.

Hmmm… If I may step in, it appears the issue here is not one of difficulty. The mushroom in question is a time gate in that: you are intentionally spending more time then necessary to do something. Map shortcuts are cool and interesting when you can use them, but when you have to grind for something as simple as not taking the stairs (while other people just jump past you) it tends to put the elevator in a negative light.

And, to reply in advance to the ‘level masteries’ response that’s been popping up recently: Grinding takes time and effort, and is not as fun part of games.

Grind? For mushrooms? Really? You must be playing a different game than me.

Mushrooms are the first, single mastery point mastery of itzel law. In theory you could see it grinding to get leyline gliding, but just doing events, I got all the mastetries I needed to get through HOT in the first day or two of the expansion release. What you call grinding, I call playing.

It doesn’t take you hours to unlock mushroom jumping. It doesn’t even take you an hour. You can get both mushroom jumping and basic gliding in an hour, and it’s a lot faster that that if you use buffs like food and utliities which anyone can get. And now with guild buffs in the mix, it’s easy and fast to level those.

People maxed out their masteries in a week or two. So if you’re a more casual player, maybe it takes you a month to get all your masteries. It’s a new expansion. Surely a month to get your masteries isn’t that hard.

The masteries you need, absolutely need are the first three gliding, the first itzel, the first exalt and the first two nuhoch. If that took you a week you did something terrible wrong.

The rest of those you can get any time you want, at your leisure without grinding.

I never did any grinding. I did events. If you just go through the hubs and do the events in VB, you can easily get enough mastery experience and points to get all the masteries you need to go to TD. It doesn’t take much longer than completing a zone in the core game, when you didn’t know how to complete zones.

This is a new expansion. Getting through it shouldn’t be instant. Playing it just to get through it is pointless. It’s like saying I only want the masteries but I don’t want to play the zone.

This wasn’t all true at launch, but it was certainly true shortly after launch when two changes were made. Hero points were reduced from 400 to 250 to unlock your elite spec and poison lore was removed as a story requirement. It remains an option to this day, and not something you need.

Vayne.8563:

Grind? For mushrooms? Really? You must be playing a different game than me.

Mushrooms are the first, single mastery point mastery of itzel law. In theory you could see it grinding to get leyline gliding, but just doing events, I got all the mastetries I needed to get through HOT in the first day or two of the expansion release. What you call grinding, I call playing.

It doesn’t take you hours to unlock mushroom jumping. It doesn’t even take you an hour. You can get both mushroom jumping and basic gliding in an hour, and it’s a lot faster that that if you use buffs like food and utliities which anyone can get. And now with guild buffs in the mix, it’s easy and fast to level those.

People maxed out their masteries in a week or two. So if you’re a more casual player, maybe it takes you a month to get all your masteries. It’s a new expansion. Surely a month to get your masteries isn’t that hard.

The masteries you need, absolutely need are the first three gliding, the first itzel, the first exalt and the first two nuhoch. If that took you a week you did something terrible wrong.

The rest of those you can get any time you want, at your leisure without grinding.

I never did any grinding. I did events. If you just go through the hubs and do the events in VB, you can easily get enough mastery experience and points to get all the masteries you need to go to TD. It doesn’t take much longer than completing a zone in the core game, when you didn’t know how to complete zones.

This is a new expansion. Getting through it shouldn’t be instant. Playing it just to get through it is pointless. It’s like saying I only want the masteries but I don’t want to play the zone.

This wasn’t all true at launch, but it was certainly true shortly after launch when two changes were made. Hero points were reduced from 400 to 250 to unlock your elite spec and poison lore was removed as a story requirement. It remains an option to this day, and not something you need.

Mushrooms were an example based off the super mario bros theme we seem to have going on. Feel free to replace it with the “you need this to move faster” mastery of your choice.

And yes, you and I are expert players with full ascended gear, and an invisible bag full of potions but not everybody preps like that. An average player won’t be able to pick up mastery points at a quarter of the speed of a hardcore player. That hurts the game because by the time someone’s unlocked the appropriate masteries, they’ve run through the map to the point where it’s boring. Their only reward was something that would have made the map more fun at the start, but they’ve spent four hours on that map, and want to go do something else. And then they do.

That’s the problem. The Mastery system as-is isn’t fun. It’s also barely progression since you need both a full XP bar and the points to level. If it was just the points that would be fine but the mastery XP bar is currently a way to add progress to the game without adding content. If we didn’t have the bar then rolling through the game would be exploration-based, as it is right now, masteries are a grind.

Finalfreefall.8247:

Vayne.8563:

Grind? For mushrooms? Really? You must be playing a different game than me.

Mushrooms are the first, single mastery point mastery of itzel law. In theory you could see it grinding to get leyline gliding, but just doing events, I got all the mastetries I needed to get through HOT in the first day or two of the expansion release. What you call grinding, I call playing.

It doesn’t take you hours to unlock mushroom jumping. It doesn’t even take you an hour. You can get both mushroom jumping and basic gliding in an hour, and it’s a lot faster that that if you use buffs like food and utliities which anyone can get. And now with guild buffs in the mix, it’s easy and fast to level those.

People maxed out their masteries in a week or two. So if you’re a more casual player, maybe it takes you a month to get all your masteries. It’s a new expansion. Surely a month to get your masteries isn’t that hard.

The masteries you need, absolutely need are the first three gliding, the first itzel, the first exalt and the first two nuhoch. If that took you a week you did something terrible wrong.

The rest of those you can get any time you want, at your leisure without grinding.

I never did any grinding. I did events. If you just go through the hubs and do the events in VB, you can easily get enough mastery experience and points to get all the masteries you need to go to TD. It doesn’t take much longer than completing a zone in the core game, when you didn’t know how to complete zones.

This is a new expansion. Getting through it shouldn’t be instant. Playing it just to get through it is pointless. It’s like saying I only want the masteries but I don’t want to play the zone.

This wasn’t all true at launch, but it was certainly true shortly after launch when two changes were made. Hero points were reduced from 400 to 250 to unlock your elite spec and poison lore was removed as a story requirement. It remains an option to this day, and not something you need.

Mushrooms were an example based off the super mario bros theme we seem to have going on. Feel free to replace it with the “you need this to move faster” mastery of your choice.

And yes, you and I are expert players with full ascended gear, and an invisible bag full of potions but not everybody preps like that. An average player won’t be able to pick up mastery points at a quarter of the speed of a hardcore player. That hurts the game because by the time someone’s unlocked the appropriate masteries, they’ve run through the map to the point where it’s boring. Their only reward was something that would have made the map more fun at the start, but they’ve spent four hours on that map, and want to go do something else. And then they do.

That’s the problem. The Mastery system as-is isn’t fun. It’s also barely progression since you need both a full XP bar and the points to level. If it was just the points that would be fine but the mastery XP bar is currently a way to add progress to the game without adding content. If we didn’t have the bar then rolling through the game would be exploration-based, as it is right now, masteries are a grind.

Food is dirt cheap. Doesn’t matter the food you need. Halloween food gives you 15% bonus to kills. Candy Corn Custard is currently 2 copper on the trading post. I don’t care how casual you are, you should be able to afford 20 copper to have a couple of hours of buff. Potion of ogre grawl slaying (and several others) are 3 copper. They give you another 10%. If you have log in rewards you should have celebration boosters. They give you another 10%. You might even have a birthday booster if you’re been around a while that lasts 24 hours of actual play time and if you happen to belong to any guild that’s been around a bit, you get 10% from just your guild hall buff.

You’re making it sound like these buffs are beyond the means of even the most casual player…but they’re not.

Playiing casually means just doing the events in the area, and killing some stuff. If you’re not doing events and you’re not killing stuff you’re not casual. You’re not playing.

Edit: The mushrooms are nothing like mario brother mushrooms. In mario brothers you have to gude yourself to where you are. These mushrooms require no skill, which means no platforming at all. You get on the mushroom and it places you where you need to be. It’s no different than the portals in DR. You might not like the them, but it’s essentially a portal with a jungle theme. That’s all it is.

Vayne.8563:

Food is dirt cheap. Doesn’t matter the food you need. Halloween food gives you 15% bonus to kills. Candy Corn Custard is currently 2 copper on the trading post. I don’t care how casual you are, you should be able to afford 20 copper to have a couple of hours of buff. Potion of ogre grawl slaying (and several others) are 3 copper. They give you another 10%. If you have log in rewards you should have celebration boosters. They give you another 10%. You might even have a birthday booster if you’re been around a while that lasts 24 hours of actual play time and if you happen to belong to any guild that’s been around a bit, you get 10% from just your guild hall buff.

You’re making it sound like these buffs are beyond the means of even the most casual player…but they’re not.

Playiing casually means just doing the events in the area, and killing some stuff. If you’re not doing events and you’re not killing stuff you’re not casual. You’re not playing.

I do agree with you there, people should have buffs up, but how may times do you end up handing out potions when a dungeon run keeps going sour? (Less so now cause of elites~ but) I used to run into people planning on running one dungeon for a bit who just wouldn’t pick up potions, I don’t even think people on average know that there’s a way to buff your damage against Nightmare Court, it’s just not information that occurs to people.

Finalfreefall.8247:

Vayne.8563:

Food is dirt cheap. Doesn’t matter the food you need. Halloween food gives you 15% bonus to kills. Candy Corn Custard is currently 2 copper on the trading post. I don’t care how casual you are, you should be able to afford 20 copper to have a couple of hours of buff. Potion of ogre grawl slaying (and several others) are 3 copper. They give you another 10%. If you have log in rewards you should have celebration boosters. They give you another 10%. You might even have a birthday booster if you’re been around a while that lasts 24 hours of actual play time and if you happen to belong to any guild that’s been around a bit, you get 10% from just your guild hall buff.

You’re making it sound like these buffs are beyond the means of even the most casual player…but they’re not.

Playiing casually means just doing the events in the area, and killing some stuff. If you’re not doing events and you’re not killing stuff you’re not casual. You’re not playing.

I do agree with you there, people should have buffs up, but how may times do you end up handing out potions when a dungeon run keeps going sour? (Less so now cause of elites~ but) I used to run into people planning on running one dungeon for a bit who just wouldn’t pick up potions, I don’t even think people on average know that there’s a way to buff your damage against Nightmare Court, it’s just not information that occurs to people.

I’m not saying it doesn’t happen. I’m saying this is a game and part of any game is problem solving. Food has been in this game from day one. It’s always been there. It’s always had at least a 10% bonus. Even casual players should have tons of halloween food or wintersday food left over. If not it’s easy to buy.

If you’re playing a game and you say wow this is taking too long to get experience, logically wouldn’t you take something that’s easy to get to get more. This doesn’t count people who farmed or buy black lion keys either who probably have experience booster sitting there they have no need for at all, which gives you a 50% buff.

I’ve always said it’s easier to light a single candle than to curse the darkness.

Some casual players would probably be better off joining a casual guild even if they solo, because these things would be said in guild chat or in voice over and over again.

Or they’d say this is such a grind leveling and someone would show them.

Happens in my guild all the time.

We’re not talking about hard core stuff no one can get. We’re talking about people making the simplest change to make their game more enjoyable.

Vayne.8563:

I’m not saying it doesn’t happen. I’m saying this is a game and part of any game is problem solving. Food has been in this game from day one. It’s always been there. It’s always had at least a 10% bonus. Even casual players should have tons of halloween food or wintersday food left over. If not it’s easy to buy.

If you’re playing a game and you say wow this is taking too long to get experience, logically wouldn’t you take something that’s easy to get to get more. This doesn’t count people who farmed or buy black lion keys either who probably have experience booster sitting there they have no need for at all, which gives you a 50% buff.

I’ve always said it’s easier to light a single candle than to curse the darkness.

Some casual players would probably be better off joining a casual guild even if they solo, because these things would be said in guild chat or in voice over and over again.

Or they’d say this is such a grind leveling and someone would show them.

Happens in my guild all the time.

We’re not talking about hard core stuff no one can get. We’re talking about people making the simplest change to make their game more enjoyable.

Exactly! but the information’s not there- people try and strike out on their own instead of waiting for an event to come up, end up lost and angry because they didn’t know what they were doing. Guild wars never teaches you to try.

Dashingsteel.3410:

Of course no game is perfect, but I believe that the complaint was that someone finds a game they like and then an expansion comes along an fundamentally changes the game in such a manner that it is no longer enjoyable.

What is wrong in asking or expecting for more of the same in an expansion?

There is nothing wrong with it. Nothing at all.

There’s nothing wrong with expecting politicians to keep their promises either.

I can’t remember any MMO where the expansion doesn’t change something up. It happened even in Guild Wars 1, when heroes were introduced. There was a huge outcry over that, because it fundmentally changed the game.

The only thing that is guaranteed when you play an active MMO is that it’s going to chance and evolve. You may not like the way an MMO evolves, but that’s not going to stop it from evolving, nor should you expect it not to evolve. There’s nothing wrong with expecting it not to evolve, but you’re bound to be disappointed.

How many people who played vanilla wow complained about changes to WoW as the game progressed. People complain about changes to every MMO I’ve ever played. To expect more of exactly the same stuff is not what MMOs do? Why?

Because it only keeps the players they have, and companies and games want more players. This game was woefully short on difficult content and now it’s not. Anet filled in kitten.

They also added something that’s arguably popular which are multi-layered maps.

There are people who hate them, but I don’t believe they’re in any way a majority or even close to it. There are also people who didn’t like them at first but now like them.

I mean, Dry Top was popular and that’s more platforming than HoT maps. And Bazare of the Four Winds was massively popular and that’s more platforming than HoT.

The map complexity is bad for some people it’s true. But I think far more people were concerned with the difficulty than the map complexity. Map complexity can be solved by watching a video. Combat? Not so much.

Finalfreefall.8247:

Vayne.8563:

I’m not saying it doesn’t happen. I’m saying this is a game and part of any game is problem solving. Food has been in this game from day one. It’s always been there. It’s always had at least a 10% bonus. Even casual players should have tons of halloween food or wintersday food left over. If not it’s easy to buy.

If you’re playing a game and you say wow this is taking too long to get experience, logically wouldn’t you take something that’s easy to get to get more. This doesn’t count people who farmed or buy black lion keys either who probably have experience booster sitting there they have no need for at all, which gives you a 50% buff.

I’ve always said it’s easier to light a single candle than to curse the darkness.

Some casual players would probably be better off joining a casual guild even if they solo, because these things would be said in guild chat or in voice over and over again.

Or they’d say this is such a grind leveling and someone would show them.

Happens in my guild all the time.

We’re not talking about hard core stuff no one can get. We’re talking about people making the simplest change to make their game more enjoyable.

Exactly! but the information’s not there- people try and strike out on their own instead of waiting for an event to come up, end up lost and angry because they didn’t know what they were doing. Guild wars never teaches you to try.

What information is not there? That events happen around outposts? It was said in the lead up to the game more than once. Outposts are areas where events happen. And if people joined a guild they’d have known it. But even if they didn’t join a guild that information was around. There were places you could go to see that information.

What you’re saying is people don’t like to explore, they don’t like to watch videos, they don’t like the read websites, they don’t like to join guilds, they don’t like to talk to people in game.

Well that’s not going to go so good for people in most MMOs, and it wouldn’t go so good for people in any MMO I’d want to play since exploring is what I want to do.

Vayne.8563:

What information is not there? That events happen around outposts? It was said in the lead up to the game more than once. Outposts are areas where events happen. And if people joined a guild they’d have known it. But even if they didn’t join a guild that information was around. There were places you could go to see that information.

What you’re saying is people don’t like to explore, they don’t like to watch videos, they don’t like the read websites, they don’t like to join guilds, they don’t like to talk to people in game.

Well that’s not going to go so good for people in most MMOs, and it wouldn’t go so good for people in any MMO I’d want to play since exploring is what I want to do.

Yes, but Guild wars 2 defined itself as a niche for those kinds of players. That’s where the issue lies.

Finalfreefall.8247:

And yes, you and I are expert players with full ascended gear, and an invisible bag full of potions but not everybody preps like that. An average player won’t be able to pick up mastery points at a quarter of the speed of a hardcore player. That hurts the game because by the time someone’s unlocked the appropriate masteries, they’ve run through the map to the point where it’s boring. Their only reward was something that would have made the map more fun at the start, but they’ve spent four hours on that map, and want to go do something else. And then they do.

I completely agree. You enter HoT in Verdant Brink where it is so much easier when you have Lean Flying, Mushrooms, Wallows, etc. But most of the time you spend in that map from day 1, you don’t have these Masteries. By the time you get them you are in another map where you don’t need them.

Very poor design. I hated Verdant Brink for this reason.

Finalfreefall.8247:

Vayne.8563:

What information is not there? That events happen around outposts? It was said in the lead up to the game more than once. Outposts are areas where events happen. And if people joined a guild they’d have known it. But even if they didn’t join a guild that information was around. There were places you could go to see that information.

What you’re saying is people don’t like to explore, they don’t like to watch videos, they don’t like the read websites, they don’t like to join guilds, they don’t like to talk to people in game.

Well that’s not going to go so good for people in most MMOs, and it wouldn’t go so good for people in any MMO I’d want to play since exploring is what I want to do.

Yes, but Guild wars 2 defined itself as a niche for those kinds of players. That’s where the issue lies.

I’m not 100% sure I agree with that. That is, from the beginning, there has been information from external sources that you can ONLY get from external sources, including timer sites for the fire ele. There’s no in game way to get that.

The game has been telling us to look at stuff for years. There’s always been some weird events that lead to other events that you need to open up waypoints, or get to jumping puzzles, or whatever. Hell even in Caledon Forest, the jumping puzzle there depends on an event being finished or you can’t get to it.

What you’re really saying is that there are a percentage of people in this game who played with game without understanding it fully, and they could sorta get by as long as they stayed with certain content.

I agree. But I’d like you to find a quote from Anet where they said you’d be able to understand everything in game, or that the game was made for people who aren’t interested in figuring stuff out.

Vayne.8563:

I’m not 100% sure I agree with that. That is, from the beginning, there has been information from external sources that you can ONLY get from external sources, including timer sites for the fire ele. There’s no in game way to get that.

The game has been telling us to look at stuff for years. There’s always been some weird events that lead to other events that you need to open up waypoints, or get to jumping puzzles, or whatever. Hell even in Caledon Forest, the jumping puzzle there depends on an event being finished or you can’t get to it.

What you’re really saying is that there are a percentage of people in this game who played with game without understanding it fully, and they could sorta get by as long as they stayed with certain content.

I agree. But I’d like you to find a quote from Anet where they said you’d be able to understand everything in game, or that the game was made for people who aren’t interested in figuring stuff out.

Yeah, that’s it exactly! What I’m taking about is a low floor of enjoyment. The players don’t have to know anything about the game to do low-grade content. If someone wants to run around a map, they can do so to the fullest extent of their abilities. That’s not an option in HoT because of the artificially high floor created by requiring XP for masteries.

The problem comes when the game introduces high-grade content. Dungeons and Fractals aren’t unapproachable from a casual level but Hot and Raids require builds and specific gear. And until HoT dropped, most players were conditioned to not worry about that sort of thing.

Guild wars 2 design manifesto:

Our games aren’t about preparing to have fun, or about grinding for a future fun reward. Our games are designed to be fun from moment to moment.

Which is contrary to the mastery system, making players grind experience to play the same content at a more accessible level.

E: grabbed a better quote

Finalfreefall.8247:

Two parts here (sorry)

Vayne.8563:

I’m not 100% sure I agree with that. That is, from the beginning, there has been information from external sources that you can ONLY get from external sources, including timer sites for the fire ele. There’s no in game way to get that.

The game has been telling us to look at stuff for years. There’s always been some weird events that lead to other events that you need to open up waypoints, or get to jumping puzzles, or whatever. Hell even in Caledon Forest, the jumping puzzle there depends on an event being finished or you can’t get to it.

What you’re really saying is that there are a percentage of people in this game who played with game without understanding it fully, and they could sorta get by as long as they stayed with certain content.

Yeah, that’s it exactly! What I’m taking about is a low floor of enjoyment. The players don’t have to know anything about the game to do low-grade content. If someone wants to run around a map, they can do so to the fullest extent of their abilities. That’s not an option in HoT because of the artificially high floor created by requiring XP for masteries.

The problem comes when the game introduces high-grade content. Dungeons and Fractals aren’t unapproachable from a casual level but Hot and Raids require builds and specific gear. And until HoT dropped, most players were conditioned to not worry about that sort of thing.

Vayne.8563:

I agree. But I’d like you to find a quote from Anet where they said you’d be able to understand everything in game, or that the game was made for people who aren’t interested in figuring stuff out.

Guild wars 2 design manifesto:

Our games aren’t about preparing to have fun, or about grinding for a future fun reward. Our games are designed to be fun from moment to moment.

Which is contrary to the mastery system, making players grind experience to play the same content at a more accessible level.

E: grabbed a better quote

Which is the biggest problem. The lowest 5% want stuff they can do. The highest five percent want stuff they can do. Most people are probably in the middle. That is they know more than nothing and less than everything.

And some of those people, myself included, wouldn’t be satisfied with four maps like central tyria that we can burn through. So you have to lose a percentage of players no matter what you do.

Plenty of people did leave the game because they were bored. How many? I don’t know. Some of them have come back. How many? I don’t know that either.

But I’d wager the number of people who don’t like hot is offset by the number of people who find it refreshing.

That’s the issue. Yes. there are people in the game like you describe. But should we cater to them?

I remember back when the Marionette fight came out, which was one of my favorite fights in the entire game. It was awesome, until some guy who didn’t know the fight brought a minion or pet to the second platform and ruined it for everyone. A hundred people have to suffer, because one guy doesn’t know the game.

When Anet was asked, that long ago, they said they wanted a game where the community taught others how to play the game. They were going for that. This wasn’t some top secret rocket science added with HOT and not mentioned. Anet wanted to do more and they couldn’t until the playerbase had more knowledge of how to play. So they made stuff that required that knowledge.

If the people who can’t handle it don’t play those zones, they’re not necessarily hurting players like me. Because ultimately I find that content more appealing, and as a result, I want to be able to beat it.

No one is asking anyone to be able to solo dungeons. But learning the game? That’s part of the game…according to Anet.

Vayne.8563:

Which is the biggest problem. The lowest 5% want stuff they can do. The highest five percent want stuff they can do. Most people are probably in the middle. That is they know more than nothing and less than everything.

And some of those people, myself included, wouldn’t be satisfied with four maps like central tyria that we can burn through. So you have to lose a percentage of players no matter what you do.

Plenty of people did leave the game because they were bored. How many? I don’t know. Some of them have come back. How many? I don’t know that either.

But I’d wager the number of people who don’t like hot is offset by the number of people who find it refreshing.

That’s the issue. Yes. there are people in the game like you describe. But should we cater to them?

I remember back when the Marionette fight came out, which was one of my favorite fights in the entire game. It was awesome, until some guy who didn’t know the fight brought a minion or pet to the second platform and ruined it for everyone. A hundred people have to suffer, because one guy doesn’t know the game.

When Anet was asked, that long ago, they said they wanted a game where the community taught others how to play the game. They were going for that. This wasn’t some top secret rocket science added with HOT and not mentioned. Anet wanted to do more and they couldn’t until the playerbase had more knowledge of how to play. So they made stuff that required that knowledge.

If the people who can’t handle it don’t play those zones, they’re not necessarily hurting players like me. Because ultimately I find that content more appealing, and as a result, I want to be able to beat it.

No one is asking anyone to be able to solo dungeons. But learning the game? That’s part of the game…according to Anet.

Then it would really help for Anet to hold the player’s hand through the first 30 minutes of a map, or at least have a companion NPC set up to help new players instead of that event chain going off every two hours. There’s a very large chance of players missing the event completely and having to power through the forest/temple area.

I wouldnt say that the expansion ruined the game, but its implementation did lessen the overall game experience for me. Again, for me.

Finalfreefall.8247:

Vayne.8563:

Which is the biggest problem. The lowest 5% want stuff they can do. The highest five percent want stuff they can do. Most people are probably in the middle. That is they know more than nothing and less than everything.

And some of those people, myself included, wouldn’t be satisfied with four maps like central tyria that we can burn through. So you have to lose a percentage of players no matter what you do.

Plenty of people did leave the game because they were bored. How many? I don’t know. Some of them have come back. How many? I don’t know that either.

But I’d wager the number of people who don’t like hot is offset by the number of people who find it refreshing.

That’s the issue. Yes. there are people in the game like you describe. But should we cater to them?

I remember back when the Marionette fight came out, which was one of my favorite fights in the entire game. It was awesome, until some guy who didn’t know the fight brought a minion or pet to the second platform and ruined it for everyone. A hundred people have to suffer, because one guy doesn’t know the game.

When Anet was asked, that long ago, they said they wanted a game where the community taught others how to play the game. They were going for that. This wasn’t some top secret rocket science added with HOT and not mentioned. Anet wanted to do more and they couldn’t until the playerbase had more knowledge of how to play. So they made stuff that required that knowledge.

If the people who can’t handle it don’t play those zones, they’re not necessarily hurting players like me. Because ultimately I find that content more appealing, and as a result, I want to be able to beat it.

No one is asking anyone to be able to solo dungeons. But learning the game? That’s part of the game…according to Anet.

Then it would really help for Anet to hold the player’s hand through the first 30 minutes of a map, or at least have a companion NPC set up to help new players instead of that event chain going off every two hours. There’s a very large chance of players missing the event completely and having to power through the forest/temple area.

i agree the map could use a bit of adjustment in teaching, though more important than what you suggest, would be a break bar tutorial.

But the bottom line still remains, the people who haven’t taken the time to learn the game before, aren’t going to learn the game now. As the game gets more complex, which is what generally happens with games, the game gets away from them.

You see this as a flaw. I see this as something that’s a necessary evil. You can’t keep players if the game doesn’t progress and you can’t progress the game if you make everything for the I don’t want to learn the game demographic.

Yes some people WILL be dissatisifed. Then again, every time I see a big red arrow in an instance telling me to go somewhere, I want to beat my monitor.

Vayne.8563:

i agree the map could use a bit of adjustment in teaching, though more important than what you suggest, would be a break bar tutorial.

But the bottom line still remains, the people who haven’t taken the time to learn the game before, aren’t going to learn the game now. As the game gets more complex, which is what generally happens with games, the game gets away from them.

You see this as a flaw. I see this as something that’s a necessary evil. You can’t keep players if the game doesn’t progress and you can’t progress the game if you make everything for the I don’t want to learn the game demographic.

Yes some people WILL be dissatisifed. Then again, every time I see a big red arrow in an instance telling me to go somewhere, I want to beat my monitor.

Oh definitely, It just needs something to say “Hey Pact commander you’re toast”. Like, a pop-up or something that’s not pocket raptors jumping at your shield bubble while you realize there’s no AOE on your bar. (actually the pocket raptors should have been a good sign xD )

Finalfreefall.8247:

Vayne.8563:

i agree the map could use a bit of adjustment in teaching, though more important than what you suggest, would be a break bar tutorial.

But the bottom line still remains, the people who haven’t taken the time to learn the game before, aren’t going to learn the game now. As the game gets more complex, which is what generally happens with games, the game gets away from them.

You see this as a flaw. I see this as something that’s a necessary evil. You can’t keep players if the game doesn’t progress and you can’t progress the game if you make everything for the I don’t want to learn the game demographic.

Yes some people WILL be dissatisifed. Then again, every time I see a big red arrow in an instance telling me to go somewhere, I want to beat my monitor.

Oh definitely, It just needs something to say “Hey Pact commander you’re toast”. Like, a pop-up or something that’s not pocket raptors jumping at your shield bubble while you realize there’s no AOE on your bar. (actually the pocket raptors should have been a good sign xD )

Or a warning saying this is end game content, it’s meant to be end game content and you should know the following things before continuing: How to remove conditions, how to access stability, how to dodge, how to move while fighting, how to break break bars, how to remove boons, how to use combos.

In the mean time, there are plenty of people in my guild who don’t know the game well who get around hot zones okay.

Vayne.8563:

Or a warning saying this is end game content, it’s meant to be end game content and you should know the following things before continuing: How to remove conditions, how to access stability, how to dodge, how to move while fighting, how to break break bars, how to remove boons, how to use combos.

In the mean time, there are plenty of people in my guild who don’t know the game well who get around hot zones okay.

YES! People can’t prepare if they don’t know what they’re facing! And by the time it’s been worked out, all the other things in VB (big open space, poor multi-map navigation, pocket raptors or any foes with a cripple/knockdown/good pursuit, falling to your death) have driven them off the map already! It was horribly managed!

Vayne.8563:

With the exception of adventures. there are virtually no mario brothers skills to get through HoT maps. Those who say there are didn’t spend long enough on those maps.

You can pretty much walk to most places. Jumping mushrooms require very very very little skill. If you can jump on the mushroom it places you were you want to be.

The fact is this oft repeated platforming claim has very little to back it up. I can walk you from one end of VB to the other. At night choppers land to take you to the canopy. You need to interact with a rope to get there.

AB is even less of a platforming experience. It’s mostly a flat map.

DS doesn’t have any platforming, except a single hero point.

It’s easy to say something. If you don’t believe me, get into the game and I’ll show you how little platforming actually exists.

Seems like kind of a strange thing to contradict someone on. Jumping on the mushrooms is a kind of jumping, whether it’s objectively “easy” or not. I don’t really struggle with it, but then, I’m not one of the people saying I inherently despise platforming either.

If someone hates platforming with a passion… well, getting on the mushrooms is a kind of platforming, regardless of how much “skill” it requires. This has been a complaint in the game any time there is something that’s considered required that you need jumping for. (As opposed to jumping puzzles, which are generally not required for anything.)

Also, I find it funky how you conveniently left out mentioning TD in your reply, when that’s obviously the biggest culprit in terms of platforming. Or, at the very least, in terms of vertical navigation, which may be where some who despise platforming struggle, in part.

Personally, I enjoy platforming, but I hate being harassed by mobs in a 3D space while I do it. Being harassed by mobs in a 2D space is annoying too, but at least they’re easier to see then. I tend to prefer platforming games that are an exercise in thought rather than reflexes. Where you can take your time to puzzle it out, rather than needing to react immediately to your environment a lot.

I also think it’s worth noting that in terms of vertical navigation, the flagship feature of HoT (gliding) is vertical navigation, so obviously there’s some emphasis on navigation through vertical space, regardless of whether it’s strictly required in every case. Heck, the DS fight at the end, as I recall, is pretty much pure vertical navigation with interludes of standing on flat ground.

So I’d say it makes sense if someone doesn’t like that sort of thing to not like HoT, considering that HoT’s flagship feature is all about the vertical navigation. So… I see your “let me prove it to you” and raise you “so what? some flat paths doesn’t change the fundamental design of it.”

To the OP: I am totally at the same point you are now. I didn’t even realize I had to activate the story before it would start, and went scrambling all over Dry Top freaking out about how hard it was to get anywhere, how few waypoints there were, how often I would die, and where the heck did I go to start the story anyway.

Then I started the main story and died three times during a single battle! But here’s the thing—it let me restart from the ‘last checkpoint’ and every time I restarted, there were less enemies left alive, so I got through it.

Then I had heard that it was important to rank up your glider skills, so I spent my first three mastery points, only to discover that to get up into the Itzel village, I apparently needed the bouncing mushroom skill. Had no mastery points left. All the mastery points I could find on the board seemed to require mushroom skills or were impossibly hard to get to.

Last night I ended up doing a terrified, white-knuckle glide down into crawley cavern (or whatever the heck it’s called) to snag the mastery point down there. My hands were shaking for about half an hour afterward. (My apparent fear of virtual heights has made getting to vistas….interesting.)

But I feel pretty awesome about my hard-won successes now. (Oh, and I managed to glide from the canopy to the roof of the Itzel place I needed to go to without a mushroom involved, after all. Ha ha ha!)

Anyway, I would advise you to take it slowly, and hang in there. Because as you become more used to the new pace, it becomes fun again. Maybe a little MORE exciting, since you have to be careful.

And when you need a break, you can go back and explore some more of the older lands again and enjoy the freedom of running wildly through the wilderness without a care.

Finalfreefall.8247:

Vayne.8563:

Or a warning saying this is end game content, it’s meant to be end game content and you should know the following things before continuing: How to remove conditions, how to access stability, how to dodge, how to move while fighting, how to break break bars, how to remove boons, how to use combos.

In the mean time, there are plenty of people in my guild who don’t know the game well who get around hot zones okay.

YES! People can’t prepare if they don’t know what they’re facing! And by the time it’s been worked out, all the other things in VB (big open space, poor multi-map navigation, pocket raptors or any foes with a cripple/knockdown/good pursuit, falling to your death) have driven them off the map already! It was horribly managed!

I don’t think it’s true. I think you and people like you were drive off the map. There are other people who like to be beaten up and having to figure out their way through. Strangely enough, I’m not one of them.

Originally the HoT maps were badly tuned and some progress was made in making them better for people who solo and are/more casual.

However, what you’re doing here is stating your problem with the game and assuming a large number of people have that problem. I don’t think that demographic is as large as you think.

I played the same game you did and didn’t have the same problems. You can’t just assume most people will have not learned the game in the time they’ve played it.

To me the real issue isn’t long term players, so much, but those who use a level 80 boost. Those people are toast, unless they’re very good.