Guild Wars 2

I believe that part of the dissatisfaction with HoT was how poorly the core game prepared people for the increased difficulty.

(Some) Players didnt learn game mechanics because, simply put, they didnt really need to. If the game allowed you to complete events, etc, without doing more than pressing the 1 and 6 keys, and sometimes not doing even that much, then why do more?

I enjoyed the difficulty increase precisely because it rewarded actually paying attention, target prioritization, and knowing my class. But I had learned to play my character in spite of the core game telling me not to bother. Not to put in the effort.

Ashen.2907:

I believe that part of the dissatisfaction with HoT was how poorly the core game prepared people for the increased difficulty.

(Some) Players didnt learn game mechanics because, simply put, they didnt really need to. If the game allowed you to complete events, etc, without doing more than pressing the 1 and 6 keys, and sometimes not doing even that much, then why do more?

I enjoyed the difficulty increase precisely because it rewarded actually paying attention, target prioritization, and knowing my class. But I had learned to play my character in spite of the core game telling me not to bother. Not to put in the effort.

This has been my argument all along. The core game didn’t prepare people, but the living story did. Both Living Story Seasons 1 and 2 did prepare people for harder content. If you did the marionette, the battle for lion’s arch, escape from lion’s arch, the nightmare tower, and many of the battles in season 2 (and particularly the achievements), you’d have gotten a lot better.

I did all that stuff, thus I was prepared for HOT. The jump from Orr to HOT without living story is vast. The jump from the Living Story Season 2 really isn’t.

i think people are forgetting what the average game player looks like, i.e over 35 with 10 years + gaming experience. Dark souls is considered difficult, or perhaps civ 4 god mode, or super meat boy, but HOT?

There is a lot of confusion where people are trying to pass ofg subjective opinion as objective fact, i.e:

I find Hot maps frustrating is subjective.
I think hot maps are like a platform game because you jomp on mushrooms – subjective.

versus

only 5% of the game population has killed the last boss in Hot, but 90% have tried – there is a problem with the boss fight design. Objective.
The mobs in HOT can one shot you regardless of your defensive abilities therefore it is poorly balanced. Objective.

vesica tempestas.1563:

i think people are forgetting what the average game player looks like, i.e over 35 with 10 years + gaming experience. Dark souls is considered difficult, or perhaps civ 4 god mode, or super meat boy, but HOT?

There is a lot of confusion where people are trying to pass ofg subjective opinion as objective fact, i.e:

I find Hot maps frustrating is subjective.
I think hot maps are like a platform game because you jomp on mushrooms – subjective.

versus

only 5% of the game population has killed the last boss in Hot, but 90% have tried – there is a problem with the boss fight design. Objective.
The mobs in HOT can one shot you regardless of your defensive abilities therefore it is poorly balanced. Objective.

If players are not provided objective statistics, such as you mention, they cannot comment on them.

An opinion that one shot mechanics indicate poor balance is subjective, not objective.

Vayne.8563:

Ashen.2907:

I believe that part of the dissatisfaction with HoT was how poorly the core game prepared people for the increased difficulty.

(Some) Players didnt learn game mechanics because, simply put, they didnt really need to. If the game allowed you to complete events, etc, without doing more than pressing the 1 and 6 keys, and sometimes not doing even that much, then why do more?

I enjoyed the difficulty increase precisely because it rewarded actually paying attention, target prioritization, and knowing my class. But I had learned to play my character in spite of the core game telling me not to bother. Not to put in the effort.

This has been my argument all along. The core game didn’t prepare people, but the living story did. Both Living Story Seasons 1 and 2 did prepare people for harder content. If you did the marionette, the battle for lion’s arch, escape from lion’s arch, the nightmare tower, and many of the battles in season 2 (and particularly the achievements), you’d have gotten a lot better.

I did all that stuff, thus I was prepared for HOT. The jump from Orr to HOT without living story is vast. The jump from the Living Story Season 2 really isn’t.

The early stages of LS1 were so offputting that I took a break from the game. Came close to uninstalling.

But temporary events that werent available for everyone to experience shouldnt be counted on as training content for an expansion that came a couple of years later IMO.

Silverwastes was better for this IMO.

Ashen.2907:

Vayne.8563:

Ashen.2907:

I believe that part of the dissatisfaction with HoT was how poorly the core game prepared people for the increased difficulty.

(Some) Players didnt learn game mechanics because, simply put, they didnt really need to. If the game allowed you to complete events, etc, without doing more than pressing the 1 and 6 keys, and sometimes not doing even that much, then why do more?

I enjoyed the difficulty increase precisely because it rewarded actually paying attention, target prioritization, and knowing my class. But I had learned to play my character in spite of the core game telling me not to bother. Not to put in the effort.

This has been my argument all along. The core game didn’t prepare people, but the living story did. Both Living Story Seasons 1 and 2 did prepare people for harder content. If you did the marionette, the battle for lion’s arch, escape from lion’s arch, the nightmare tower, and many of the battles in season 2 (and particularly the achievements), you’d have gotten a lot better.

I did all that stuff, thus I was prepared for HOT. The jump from Orr to HOT without living story is vast. The jump from the Living Story Season 2 really isn’t.

The early stages of LS1 were so offputting that I took a break from the game. Came close to uninstalling.

But temporary events that werent available for everyone to experience shouldnt be counted on as training content for an expansion that came a couple of years later IMO.

Silverwastes was better for this IMO.

But Living Story Season 2 is not temporary content. It’s part of the content. The problem is not everyone got it free. Whether you missed Season 1 or not, you’re choosing not to play Season 2 if you don’t buy it.

It’s not just that you’re missing story which you can watch on youtube. You’re missing learning to play the game as it involves. And that’s a problem.

Ashen.2907:

vesica tempestas.1563:

i think people are forgetting what the average game player looks like, i.e over 35 with 10 years + gaming experience. Dark souls is considered difficult, or perhaps civ 4 god mode, or super meat boy, but HOT?

There is a lot of confusion where people are trying to pass ofg subjective opinion as objective fact, i.e:

I find Hot maps frustrating is subjective.
I think hot maps are like a platform game because you jomp on mushrooms – subjective.

versus

only 5% of the game population has killed the last boss in Hot, but 90% have tried – there is a problem with the boss fight design. Objective.
The mobs in HOT can one shot you regardless of your defensive abilities therefore it is poorly balanced. Objective.

If players are not provided objective statistics, such as you mention, they cannot comment on them.

An opinion that one shot mechanics indicate poor balance is subjective, not objective.

Exactly so, so there is 0 value in trying to pass off subjective opinion as objective fact, and because its subjective debate goes nowhere.

No, if the average health pool is X, and a mob can exceed that with 1 hit despite the defensive actions of the player than that is in fact objective fact.

Vayne.8563:

Ashen.2907:

Vayne.8563:

Ashen.2907:

I believe that part of the dissatisfaction with HoT was how poorly the core game prepared people for the increased difficulty.

(Some) Players didnt learn game mechanics because, simply put, they didnt really need to. If the game allowed you to complete events, etc, without doing more than pressing the 1 and 6 keys, and sometimes not doing even that much, then why do more?

I enjoyed the difficulty increase precisely because it rewarded actually paying attention, target prioritization, and knowing my class. But I had learned to play my character in spite of the core game telling me not to bother. Not to put in the effort.

This has been my argument all along. The core game didn’t prepare people, but the living story did. Both Living Story Seasons 1 and 2 did prepare people for harder content. If you did the marionette, the battle for lion’s arch, escape from lion’s arch, the nightmare tower, and many of the battles in season 2 (and particularly the achievements), you’d have gotten a lot better.

I did all that stuff, thus I was prepared for HOT. The jump from Orr to HOT without living story is vast. The jump from the Living Story Season 2 really isn’t.

The early stages of LS1 were so offputting that I took a break from the game. Came close to uninstalling.

But temporary events that werent available for everyone to experience shouldnt be counted on as training content for an expansion that came a couple of years later IMO.

Silverwastes was better for this IMO.

But Living Story Season 2 is not temporary content. It’s part of the content. The problem is not everyone got it free. Whether you missed Season 1 or not, you’re choosing not to play Season 2 if you don’t buy it.

It’s not just that you’re missing story which you can watch on youtube. You’re missing learning to play the game as it involves. And that’s a problem.

I think that S2 could have been marketed better for people who didnt necessarily even know it existed. If the company was counting on it to train people for HoT they needed to be more aggressive with it.

vesica tempestas.1563:

Ashen.2907:

vesica tempestas.1563:

i think people are forgetting what the average game player looks like, i.e over 35 with 10 years + gaming experience. Dark souls is considered difficult, or perhaps civ 4 god mode, or super meat boy, but HOT?

There is a lot of confusion where people are trying to pass ofg subjective opinion as objective fact, i.e:

I find Hot maps frustrating is subjective.
I think hot maps are like a platform game because you jomp on mushrooms – subjective.

versus

only 5% of the game population has killed the last boss in Hot, but 90% have tried – there is a problem with the boss fight design. Objective.
The mobs in HOT can one shot you regardless of your defensive abilities therefore it is poorly balanced. Objective.

If players are not provided objective statistics, such as you mention, they cannot comment on them.

An opinion that one shot mechanics indicate poor balance is subjective, not objective.

Exactly so, so there is 0 point in trying to pass off subjective opinion as objective fact.

No, if the average health pool is X, and a mob can exceed that with 1 hit despite the defensive actions of the player than that is in fact objective fact.

It is an objective fact that the mob can one hit the character, it is subjective that such is poor balance.

ok drop word ‘balance’ and call it something else, the point is the ability to quantify and measure.

Sounds like getting waypoints in HoT means having to go through more physical trials like jumping which is ok with me. I’ll find out, I’m just starting Dry Top at the southeast portal where you jump onto small plateaus to go further. I’ve had GW2 since it came out and play just for exploration, about 800 hours so far. So getting waypoints is a main priority for me. I never got around to buying HoT until a couple days ago.

its not really a trial signet, just wander and explore as normal and play events and you will get mastery points that enables jumping mushrooms and gliding etc that makes travelling easier still.

vesica tempestas.1563:

i think people are forgetting what the average game player looks like, i.e over 35 with 10 years + gaming experience. Dark souls is considered difficult, or perhaps civ 4 god mode, or super meat boy, but HOT?

Where exactly are you getting the statistic that the average game player is over 35 with 10+ years of gaming experience? That doesn’t sound right at all.

A lot of people weren’t even introduced to gaming as a thing until the past 10 years or so.

Labjax.2465:

vesica tempestas.1563:

i think people are forgetting what the average game player looks like, i.e over 35 with 10 years + gaming experience. Dark souls is considered difficult, or perhaps civ 4 god mode, or super meat boy, but HOT?

Where exactly are you getting the statistic that the average game player is over 35 with 10+ years of gaming experience? That doesn’t sound right at all.

A lot of people weren’t even introduced to gaming as a thing until the past 10 years or so.

ehhh gaming has been a pop thing since mario, Street fighter tetris, aka its been awhile. I dont know if most gamers are 35 though, though many people who are 35 played games, many have stopped.

Labjax.2465:

vesica tempestas.1563:

i think people are forgetting what the average game player looks like, i.e over 35 with 10 years + gaming experience. Dark souls is considered difficult, or perhaps civ 4 god mode, or super meat boy, but HOT?

Where exactly are you getting the statistic that the average game player is over 35 with 10+ years of gaming experience? That doesn’t sound right at all.

A lot of people weren’t even introduced to gaming as a thing until the past 10 years or so.

?
There was a couple national studies done a few years ago and it was 35/10 years then. Bear in mind gaming started in the 70’s, those generations are still here.

edit, found one for north america

https://www.polygon.com/2016/4/29/11539102/gaming-stats-2016-esa-essential-facts

63 percent of U.S. households surveyed include at least one frequent gamer.
65 percent of homes own a video game-playing device, while 48 percent own “a dedicated game console.”
47 percent of gamers are between 18 and 49 years old.
The average guy who plays games is 35; the average woman is 44.
59 percent of those who play games on a regular basis are men; 41 percent are women.
The average gamer has been playing video games for 13 years.

Ignoring even age, The average gamer has been playing video games for 13 years. The average players is going to know how to jump on to a mushroom and control a glider.

A little late, but I’ll weigh on the so-called mastery grind.

During the first HoT reveal, Masteries were spoken of almost immediately after the statement that there would be no level cap increase (with no accompanying new gear tier). They were touted as horizontal rather than vertical progression. All MMO progression systems involve time spent.

Masteries are gained by two currencies: XP and Mastery Points.

XP: This seems to accrue quickly, if you are doing event chains. For example: the past couple of days, I ran around HOT getting exploration objectives and Mastery Points (insights and strongboxes). For two days, the track I was on ( Itzel Leadership, requiring 3.3 million XO, increased by < 10%. Last night, I switched to Nuhoch Stealth Detection (requiring 2.54 million XP) and went from 0 to ~2/3’s complete during a single Dragon’s Stand meta (start to finish). Either way, gaining XP is just a matter of playing the game. If you don’t like the content that the game offers to gain that XP, it’s going to feel like grind unless the XP needed can be gained in a few hours. If you like the content, and would play it anyway, it will not feel like grind.

Points: Some are easy, some are very grindy. In Tyria, I started with 22 grandfathered points, and have since gained 8 more. I maxed Pact Commander out of the box and completed the fractals track later. Some of the remaining points are definitely long-term projects, and some I will never get (all cultural armor, for instance, as I have no desire to create an Asura or Charr).

Heart of Maguuma points on the other hand, involve very little in the way of long-term objectives. Instead, you’ve got enough points in map objectives (strongboxes, insights, story steps and map event points) to get all but the niche Masteries like Adrenal Mushrooms and the last three in the Exalted Track. If you want to max all of the Mastery lines, rather than grind you have to go into niche content (story achievements where you may end up repeating the story multiple times), raids or adventures (oh, how I hate the idea that completing progression might require playing with a mini-game build and not my own). Some people may feel like points in Maguuma are grind if they avoid and/or dislike the niche content.

Finally, there is a psychological factor involved. Sometimes people like the idea of gaining game objectives on their own. Others use online resources that show them how to get stuff done easily. If you are in the former group, then getting the on map points may seem grindy — particularly if exploration is not your strong suit. There’s no denying that HoT maps are more difficult to navigate than core ones. If you’ve no idea where you’re going or why, and if you seem to end up in the same spot when you think you’ve gone in a different direction, then gaining the map points can be frustrating. For instance, of the 21 points I gained in the last two days, I stumbled onto 7-8 of them (3 DS exploration and 4 or 5 DS meta points) and looked at online cheats for the rest, which is a departure from my usual play preference. Still, I would say that the Maguuma points, while they can be frustrating, don;’ meet the criteria for grind,

My perspective is that it is the vertical maps that ruin the experience for a lot of gamers. I know a lot of people enjoy them but a lot of people don’t. I enjoy the convenience of flat maps. I am not forced to “run through hoops” to get somewhere. Bounce on this mushroom, find this updraft, etc…… On a flat map, I could just go where I want(yes, I might have to platform a little to get a vista or something but that is fine)

I’ve gamed for years but I wouldn’t say a broad range of games. Dragon age, Mass Effect, Elder Scrolls(not the mmo), Dragon’s Dogma, Fable, Red Dead redemption, Kingdoms of Amalur. I’ve played way more but these are games that provide the style of map I am looking for in a game. Core gw2 maps pretty much corresponded to this style(exceptions being rata sum, the grove, black citadel, dry top)

I understand at this point that people are so split on flat vs vertical maps that we are debating just for the debate. I am not trying to get vertical maps removed from the game. If this game was made just for me there would be no vertical maps but I have empathy for my fellow gw2 players that enjoy these maps.

My point is that HoT is not overly difficult it is just irksome.

For you, not for me, not for others. there are 37 maps in GW2.

I am specifically speaking about the expansion HoT and not gw2 as a whole when I say it is irksome.

vesica tempestas.1563:

Labjax.2465:

vesica tempestas.1563:

i think people are forgetting what the average game player looks like, i.e over 35 with 10 years + gaming experience. Dark souls is considered difficult, or perhaps civ 4 god mode, or super meat boy, but HOT?

Where exactly are you getting the statistic that the average game player is over 35 with 10+ years of gaming experience? That doesn’t sound right at all.

A lot of people weren’t even introduced to gaming as a thing until the past 10 years or so.

?
There was a couple national studies done a few years ago and it was 35/10 years then. Bear in mind gaming started in the 70’s, those generations are still here.

edit, found one for north america

https://www.polygon.com/2016/4/29/11539102/gaming-stats-2016-esa-essential-facts

63 percent of U.S. households surveyed include at least one frequent gamer.
65 percent of homes own a video game-playing device, while 48 percent own “a dedicated game console.”
47 percent of gamers are between 18 and 49 years old.
The average guy who plays games is 35; the average woman is 44.
59 percent of those who play games on a regular basis are men; 41 percent are women.
The average gamer has been playing video games for 13 years.

Ignoring even age, The average gamer has been playing video games for 13 years. The average players is going to know how to jump on to a mushroom and control a glider.

Ok, I’m just all kinds of suspicious about these statistics (as one should be, as statistics are so easy to manipulate or confuse).

Point the first is, how number of years played is being measured. Because it could be measured as, “Here is when I, survey participant, report having first played a video game compared to the date of this survey.” Which would be a huge difference compared to, “I have been playing video games consistently, daily or weekly, for the past 13 years.”

And point the second, as to you saying “the average player is going to know how to jump on a mushroom and control a glider,” that might seem like a reasonable assumption based on the belief that the study is measuring time played as “consistently, daily or weekly, for the past 13 years.” As in, “How could they not know how from all that time playing?”

But that may not even be what the statistic means. It may just be reported time in how long people think of themselves as having gotten involved in video games as a hobby.

Point the third, it’s also possible for these kind of numbers to get skewed based on extremes. As in, say there’s a minority number who have been playing for over 40 years. That could skew the average. And I don’t exactly trust people who do statistics to take this kind of stuff into account.

I just don’t see how we can assume anything particularly relevant to the HoT discussion from these statistics. The fact is, some people hate platformers. Whether they are a minority, or an average, or a giraffe in South Africa, the point is that some of them do.

And, more importantly, what matters for GW2 is what its demographic is, not what the national average is.

riiight then, maybe you want to actually read up a bit on the context of the survey and who completed the survey and why, its not a conspiracy theory to win an argument on a gaming forum for example. Alternatively, it doesn’t take a huge leap in imagination to correlate this against the gaming population in the 70s, 80,s 90’s, or even the player range – say 12-90. my original point is gamers have experience, they didnt come into GW2 cold, they know how to work things out.

ps there are other averages than median.

vesica tempestas.1563:

riiight then, maybe you want to actually read up a bit on the context of the survey and who completed the survey and why, its not a conspiracy theory to win an argument on a gaming forum for example. Alternatively, it doesn’t take a huge leap in imagination to correlate this against the gaming population in the 70s, 80,s 90’s, or even the player range – say 12-90. my original point is gamers have experience, they didnt come into GW2 cold, they know how to work things out.

ps there are other averages than median.

Challenging how the statistics relate to your argument and whether they are done in an accurate manner is not the same as saying they are part of a conspiracy.

Your original point remains unproven and largely irrelevant, as the main point being made here is that some people simply don’t like platformers, not that they are incapable of learning how to do them.

Most people in the world probably have the kinesthetic capability to learn how to be good at platformers. That doesn’t mean most of them will enjoy playing a platformer game. And whether they will enjoy it is more relevant here than whether they can do it. Cause you can teach people to do a lot of things, but if they don’t enjoy doing them, good luck getting them to stick around.

That said, I think it’s safe to say platformers are a fairly popular genre of games. But are they popular among MMO fans? How much intersection of interest happens there? That’s a big question mark. Anet may have metrics indicating that there is some strong intersection within their fanbase and that’s why they put platforming in HoT maps. Or they might have done it for some creative reason because their devs really love platforming games.

I don’t think anyone is making a serious argument that a majority of players who play, or have played, GW2 hate platformers. But some obviously don’t like it, or they don’t like vertical navigation, or both.

‘platformer’ is just another way of categorizing a thing that someone doesnt like to make it seem incongruous for argument sake. its the same argument over and over and over ‘i dont like a thing so therefore most people don’t like a thing or its a failure’. Platformer is a game genre not a map style.

Again, people like HOT, people don’t, thats it, theres nothing beyond this, except people cant get this and think HOT is a failure because they don’t like it – they cant see beyond their own viewpoint.

vesica tempestas.1563:

‘platformer’ is just another way of categorizing a thing that someone doesnt like to make it seem incongruous for argument sake. its the same argument over and over and over ‘i dont like a thing so therefore most people don’t like a thing or its a failure’. Platformer is a game genre not a map style.

Again, people like HOT, people don’t, thats it, theres nothing beyond this, except people cant get this and think HOT is a failure because they don’t like it – they cant see beyond their own viewpoint.

Yeah, ok. I don’t believe you even read what I wrote above.

vesica tempestas.1563:

its the same argument over and over and over ‘i dont like a thing so therefore most people don’t like a thing or its a failure’.

Really? The person you are going back and forth with has actually stated that they are not making an argument that GW2 players hate platformers. In fact they say that platforming games are popular.

Labjax.2465:

… I think it’s safe to say platformers are a fairly popular genre of games…

…I don’t think anyone is making a serious argument that a majority of players who play, or have played, GW2 hate platformers…

im out, the word games being played here is a waste of time.

Ashen.2907:

Vayne.8563:

Ashen.2907:

Vayne.8563:

Ashen.2907:

I believe that part of the dissatisfaction with HoT was how poorly the core game prepared people for the increased difficulty.

(Some) Players didnt learn game mechanics because, simply put, they didnt really need to. If the game allowed you to complete events, etc, without doing more than pressing the 1 and 6 keys, and sometimes not doing even that much, then why do more?

I enjoyed the difficulty increase precisely because it rewarded actually paying attention, target prioritization, and knowing my class. But I had learned to play my character in spite of the core game telling me not to bother. Not to put in the effort.

This has been my argument all along. The core game didn’t prepare people, but the living story did. Both Living Story Seasons 1 and 2 did prepare people for harder content. If you did the marionette, the battle for lion’s arch, escape from lion’s arch, the nightmare tower, and many of the battles in season 2 (and particularly the achievements), you’d have gotten a lot better.

I did all that stuff, thus I was prepared for HOT. The jump from Orr to HOT without living story is vast. The jump from the Living Story Season 2 really isn’t.

The early stages of LS1 were so offputting that I took a break from the game. Came close to uninstalling.

But temporary events that werent available for everyone to experience shouldnt be counted on as training content for an expansion that came a couple of years later IMO.

Silverwastes was better for this IMO.

But Living Story Season 2 is not temporary content. It’s part of the content. The problem is not everyone got it free. Whether you missed Season 1 or not, you’re choosing not to play Season 2 if you don’t buy it.

It’s not just that you’re missing story which you can watch on youtube. You’re missing learning to play the game as it involves. And that’s a problem.

I think that S2 could have been marketed better for people who didnt necessarily even know it existed. If the company was counting on it to train people for HoT they needed to be more aggressive with it.

100% this. Most people just ask what are the rewards like without realizing that you really do need it to evolve with the game. I never really liked that it was a seperate purchase. It probably should have been sold as a mini expansion or something. It definitely needed better messaging.

There were so many fights in that that would have prepared people for HOT content. Or at least indicated the direction the game was moving in.

I did that content and so was not blindsided by HOT.

vesica tempestas.1563:

riiight then, maybe you want to actually read up a bit on the context of the survey and who completed the survey and why, its not a conspiracy theory to win an argument on a gaming forum for example. Alternatively, it doesn’t take a huge leap in imagination to correlate this against the gaming population in the 70s, 80,s 90’s, or even the player range – say 12-90. my original point is gamers have experience, they didnt come into GW2 cold, they know how to work things out.

ps there are other averages than median.

“av·er·age
?av(?)rij
noun
1.
a number expressing the central or typical value in a set of data, in particular the mode, median, or (most commonly) the mean, which is calculated by dividing the sum of the values in the set by their number.
“the housing prices there are twice the national average”
synonyms: mean, median, mode"

“Other averages” are not called “average”. There are other specific terms to represent different means of showing aggregate data. A professional entity would use the appropriate word. So if they say “average” they either mean “average” or they don’t know what they are doing.

NCsoft net plunges 74% on weak game sales.
http://koreajoongangdaily.joins.com/news/article/article.aspx?aid=3033273&cloc=etc%7Cjad%7Cgooglenews
Kind of says it all.

Djinn.9245:

vesica tempestas.1563:

riiight then, maybe you want to actually read up a bit on the context of the survey and who completed the survey and why, its not a conspiracy theory to win an argument on a gaming forum for example. Alternatively, it doesn’t take a huge leap in imagination to correlate this against the gaming population in the 70s, 80,s 90’s, or even the player range – say 12-90. my original point is gamers have experience, they didnt come into GW2 cold, they know how to work things out.

ps there are other averages than median.

“av·er·age
?av(?)rij
noun
1.
a number expressing the central or typical value in a set of data, in particular the mode, median, or (most commonly) the mean, which is calculated by dividing the sum of the values in the set by their number.
“the housing prices there are twice the national average”
synonyms: mean, median, mode"

“Other averages” are not called “average”. There are other specific terms to represent different means of showing aggregate data. A professional entity would use the appropriate word. So if they say “average” they either mean “average” or they don’t know what they are doing.

although i understand your point, the link you give shows that people could mean any of 3 different things when they say average.
mean, median and mode all mean dif things.

Danicus.4952:

NCsoft net plunges 74% on weak game sales.
http://koreajoongangdaily.joins.com/news/article/article.aspx?aid=3033273&cloc=etc%7Cjad%7Cgooglenews
Kind of says it all.

eh, sales are low because they didnt release anything. They are focused on creating new content/games. That doesnt really say much. Time will tell if their new stuff sicceeds, or flops, that will be the thing to watch for

Danicus.4952:

NCsoft net plunges 74% on weak game sales.
http://koreajoongangdaily.joins.com/news/article/article.aspx?aid=3033273&cloc=etc%7Cjad%7Cgooglenews
Kind of says it all.

It says it all. It says mostly that people try to read headlines and don’t actually read the article. Guild Wars 2 has NEVER been NCsoftg’s big game. Lineage has always been the big bread winner for NcSoft and Lineage sales are way down and are expected to pick up next quarter anyway.

How are you equating Guild Wars 2’s progress with NcSoft’s progress. For a 4.5 year old game that hasn’t had an expansion in a year and a half, Guild Wars 2 is likely well within expectation.

It’s like saying WOW was dying because a year and a half after an expansion is brings in less money.

People should really read the article rather than just look at the headline. No one has said at NcSoft that Guild Wars 2 sales have been disappoint.

Wildstar, in the meantime, is no longer listed at all.

Danicus.4952:

NCsoft net plunges 74% on weak game sales.
http://koreajoongangdaily.joins.com/news/article/article.aspx?aid=3033273&cloc=etc%7Cjad%7Cgooglenews
Kind of says it all.

Cherry-picking data to support your point? That’s cheap. To summarize: comparing post-expansion result with the same period an year later with no expansion in the mean time is meaningless. Of course the sales are going to be much lower.

phys.7689:

Djinn.9245:

vesica tempestas.1563:

riiight then, maybe you want to actually read up a bit on the context of the survey and who completed the survey and why, its not a conspiracy theory to win an argument on a gaming forum for example. Alternatively, it doesn’t take a huge leap in imagination to correlate this against the gaming population in the 70s, 80,s 90’s, or even the player range – say 12-90. my original point is gamers have experience, they didnt come into GW2 cold, they know how to work things out.

ps there are other averages than median.

“av·er·age
?av(?)rij
noun
1.
a number expressing the central or typical value in a set of data, in particular the mode, median, or (most commonly) the mean, which is calculated by dividing the sum of the values in the set by their number.
“the housing prices there are twice the national average”
synonyms: mean, median, mode"

“Other averages” are not called “average”. There are other specific terms to represent different means of showing aggregate data. A professional entity would use the appropriate word. So if they say “average” they either mean “average” or they don’t know what they are doing.

although i understand your point, the link you give shows that people could mean any of 3 different things when they say average.
mean, median and mode all mean dif things.

This is true. What I meant was that mainly “average” is understood to be the “mean”. Because this is the understanding, other types of “average” need to be stated unless the results are meant to be misleading or are simply presented in a less accurate manner.

Is the stable player base increasing or decreasing?

Danicus.4952:

Is the stable player base increasing or decreasing?

I’m pretty sure it’s decreasing. However, I’m pretty sure the stable player base of every single themepark MMO decreases deeper into an expansion cycle. It’s like asking are you older now than you were a second ago? Well yeah, sure you are. This game is older now.

But then an expansion comes out and people come back to play it. Different people consume content at different rates. There are still people that are working on getting masteries and there are still new players.

If you think that a yearafter an expansion WoW or FFXIV or any AAA MMO maintains it’s player base, I’m not really sure what to tell you.

The real question isn’t whether the stable player base has decreased or not. The real question is how the game does over time compared to other similar games. Still plenty of people playing this long into an expansion cycle.

Danicus.4952:

Is the stable player base increasing or decreasing?

Is that a trick question? Only Anet can answer that. The rest of us can just post guesses.
Sure. Sales show a (very) slight decline.
It could be caused by players leaving (if sales drop translate 1:1 to player attrition between expansions most mmo publishers would be envious already).
It’s also possible that loyal players spend slightly less cash for gems or convert more gold for gems while waiting for more interesting cashshop items.

Bottom line: With $50 mil. sales pr. year they could pay dividends, rent, hosting, bandwidth, marketing, insurance and benefits and easily keep 400 employees very happy.
With expansion sales in 2-3 quarters I would say they are in a good place as long as they hold on to those loyal fans (that I am no longer a part of)

I apologize for my negative disposition with HOT. I have posted on a few threads over the years about my dissatisfaction with HOT, and I see many familiar defenders of HOT on this thread. I do find resonance with this OP, and many others that have had similar experiences. It feels like the conversation hasn’t really evolved though. Many new players enjoy core Tyria, and run into a wall in HOT. They make their point on the forum, and there’s almost a professional team of posters ready to smack them down with honed arguments of why the OP’s experience isn’t valid. So I will retire for a few months again and see if things have changed. Good luck OP, there are people out there that understand your experience of HOT and support your point of view.

Danicus.4952:

I apologize for my negative disposition with HOT. I have posted on a few threads over the years about my dissatisfaction with HOT, and I see many familiar defenders of HOT on this thread. I do find resonance with this OP, and many others that have had similar experiences. It feels like the conversation hasn’t really evolved though. Many new players enjoy core Tyria, and run into a wall in HOT. They make their point on the forum, and there’s almost a professional team of posters ready to smack them down with honed arguments of why the OP’s experience isn’t valid. So I will retire for a few months again and see if things have changed. Good luck OP, there are people out there that understand your experience of HOT and support your point of view.

Even early on the support/I hate hot threads had about 50/50 on the posters. One side doesn’t have any kind of clear demograhic.

On top of that, the game did well for many many months, at least 3-4 quarters after HoT launched before it started to slip. HoT wasn’t as detrimental to the game as some people make it sound.

It lost some casual players, it picked up some raiders.

And since it’s been proven that more people will complain than compliment, I believe most people didn’t share the same complaints about HoT as the OP though undoubtedly some did. Also those complaints are split into two major groups, difficulty, of content and how confusing the map is. Not everyone who is confused by the map wants the easy content. Not everyone that wants the easy content necessarily wants simple maps. You don’t like it so strongly you’re assuming most people or a ton of people feel like you do. It’s probably not as high a percentage as you think.

All that said, if you post a negative post on something like Reddit, which is not moderator but fan moderated, you’ll find that they tend to get downvoted. That is to say the reddit audience has more people that like the new map complexity and difficulty than don’t.

Of course, that’s not really indicating anything since those people are in fact, more dedicated to the game and likely represent more skilled players.

Still its’ not as cut and dried as you seem to think.

Vayne.8563:

Danicus.4952:

I apologize for my negative disposition with HOT. I have posted on a few threads over the years about my dissatisfaction with HOT, and I see many familiar defenders of HOT on this thread. I do find resonance with this OP, and many others that have had similar experiences. It feels like the conversation hasn’t really evolved though. Many new players enjoy core Tyria, and run into a wall in HOT. They make their point on the forum, and there’s almost a professional team of posters ready to smack them down with honed arguments of why the OP’s experience isn’t valid. So I will retire for a few months again and see if things have changed. Good luck OP, there are people out there that understand your experience of HOT and support your point of view.

Even early on the support/I hate hot threads had about 50/50 on the posters. One side doesn’t have any kind of clear demograhic.

On top of that, the game did well for many many months, at least 3-4 quarters after HoT launched before it started to slip. HoT wasn’t as detrimental to the game as some people make it sound.

It lost some casual players, it picked up some raiders.

And since it’s been proven that more people will complain than compliment, I believe most people didn’t share the same complaints about HoT as the OP though undoubtedly some did. Also those complaints are split into two major groups, difficulty, of content and how confusing the map is. Not everyone who is confused by the map wants the easy content. Not everyone that wants the easy content necessarily wants simple maps. You don’t like it so strongly you’re assuming most people or a ton of people feel like you do. It’s probably not as high a percentage as you think.

All that said, if you post a negative post on something like Reddit, which is not moderator but fan moderated, you’ll find that they tend to get downvoted. That is to say the reddit audience has more people that like the new map complexity and difficulty than don’t.

Of course, that’s not really indicating anything since those people are in fact, more dedicated to the game and likely represent more skilled players.

Still its’ not as cut and dried as you seem to think.

Reading your response, I am compelled to ask what it has to do with the post you are replying to?

Vayne.8563:

You don’t like it so strongly you’re assuming most people or a ton of people feel like you do. It’s probably not as high a percentage as you think.

And specifically, where does he say this?

Djinn.9245:

Vayne.8563:

Danicus.4952:

I apologize for my negative disposition with HOT. I have posted on a few threads over the years about my dissatisfaction with HOT, and I see many familiar defenders of HOT on this thread. I do find resonance with this OP, and many others that have had similar experiences. It feels like the conversation hasn’t really evolved though. Many new players enjoy core Tyria, and run into a wall in HOT. They make their point on the forum, and there’s almost a professional team of posters ready to smack them down with honed arguments of why the OP’s experience isn’t valid. So I will retire for a few months again and see if things have changed. Good luck OP, there are people out there that understand your experience of HOT and support your point of view.

Even early on the support/I hate hot threads had about 50/50 on the posters. One side doesn’t have any kind of clear demograhic.

On top of that, the game did well for many many months, at least 3-4 quarters after HoT launched before it started to slip. HoT wasn’t as detrimental to the game as some people make it sound.

It lost some casual players, it picked up some raiders.

And since it’s been proven that more people will complain than compliment, I believe most people didn’t share the same complaints about HoT as the OP though undoubtedly some did. Also those complaints are split into two major groups, difficulty, of content and how confusing the map is. Not everyone who is confused by the map wants the easy content. Not everyone that wants the easy content necessarily wants simple maps. You don’t like it so strongly you’re assuming most people or a ton of people feel like you do. It’s probably not as high a percentage as you think.

All that said, if you post a negative post on something like Reddit, which is not moderator but fan moderated, you’ll find that they tend to get downvoted. That is to say the reddit audience has more people that like the new map complexity and difficulty than don’t.

Of course, that’s not really indicating anything since those people are in fact, more dedicated to the game and likely represent more skilled players.

Still its’ not as cut and dried as you seem to think.

Reading your response, I am compelled to ask what it has to do with the post you are replying to?

Vayne.8563:

You don’t like it so strongly you’re assuming most people or a ton of people feel like you do. It’s probably not as high a percentage as you think.

And specifically, where does he say this?

Where does he say this? It’s implied by this series of statements.

“Many new players enjoy core Tyria, and run into a wall in HOT. They make their point on the forum, and there’s almost a professional team of posters ready to smack them down with honed arguments of why the OP’s experience isn’t valid.”

He’s using the word many, and calling those who disagree a “professional team of posters”. I know that you agree with him. That doesn’t change the implication of what he’s stating. We’re a professional team of posters, not just players who like the new zone and think it’s fine.

When people posted, originally, about how hard the zones were, I audited many of those threads for unique posts. It was always about 50/50 about difficulty.

But I could say the same. I see the same group of people complaining about difficulty and map complexity and platforming over and over. It doesn’t mean you guys don’t feel that way. It doesn’t mean there aren’t other people who feel this way.

But then again it doesn’t mean those who feel different are a professional group of people responding. We’re responding in the same way that you guys are complaining. You feel passionately and we feel passionately.

Many people no doubt feel both ways. The thing is, it is my belief, that if the game doesn’t progress in difficulty, we’ll lose more people than we’ll keep. Finding that sweet spot is hard. With HoT, Anet overtuned it a bit, and went back and made some changs. For some people it’s still overtuned, but not for everyone and I don’t even believe it’s overtuned for most people.

And again, complaints are broken into to major groups that don’t even necessarily have the same complaint. So this whole I see a lot of people posting this, well I see a lot of people posting against this.

Not just a “professional group of posters”.

Vayne.8563:

Danicus.4952:

I apologize for my negative disposition with HOT. I have posted on a few threads over the years about my dissatisfaction with HOT, and I see many familiar defenders of HOT on this thread. I do find resonance with this OP, and many others that have had similar experiences. It feels like the conversation hasn’t really evolved though. Many new players enjoy core Tyria, and run into a wall in HOT. They make their point on the forum, and there’s almost a professional team of posters ready to smack them down with honed arguments of why the OP’s experience isn’t valid. So I will retire for a few months again and see if things have changed. Good luck OP, there are people out there that understand your experience of HOT and support your point of view.

Even early on the support/I hate hot threads had about 50/50 on the posters. One side doesn’t have any kind of clear demograhic.

On top of that, the game did well for many many months, at least 3-4 quarters after HoT launched before it started to slip. HoT wasn’t as detrimental to the game as some people make it sound.

It lost some casual players, it picked up some raiders.

And since it’s been proven that more people will complain than compliment, I believe most people didn’t share the same complaints about HoT as the OP though undoubtedly some did. Also those complaints are split into two major groups, difficulty, of content and how confusing the map is. Not everyone who is confused by the map wants the easy content. Not everyone that wants the easy content necessarily wants simple maps. You don’t like it so strongly you’re assuming most people or a ton of people feel like you do. It’s probably not as high a percentage as you think.

All that said, if you post a negative post on something like Reddit, which is not moderator but fan moderated, you’ll find that they tend to get downvoted. That is to say the reddit audience has more people that like the new map complexity and difficulty than don’t.

Of course, that’s not really indicating anything since those people are in fact, more dedicated to the game and likely represent more skilled players.

Still its’ not as cut and dried as you seem to think.

I don’t know, seems to me like you just did exactly what he described. Not an hour after he posted and you’ve already written this multi-paragraph analysis to try to undermine what he’s saying. “Professional team of posters” might be overstating it, but there are certainly dedicated defenders like yourself around. I’ve had you quote me many times on this very HoT-related topic, often responding in a way that seems more centered on a general defense argument than responding to what I literally say.

So I can see where Danicus would get the “professional poster” vibe. I hope you can see that if you were in our shoes, the rate and mode with which you post could look that way from the other end.

I try really hard to give people the benefit of the doubt and I’ve tried to put myself in your shoes in the past and figure that maybe under different circumstances, I could be the poster like you on other forums, coming out of the woodwork all the time to defend something I like. But from the actual end I’m inhabiting here, it’s hard to see it that way.

I don’t think what Danicus is describing is just about HoT. It’s about a kind of persistent need to make the same defenses over and over, to ensure that the narrative on the forums is not lopsided in a negative direction, even if that means making those saying negative things feel like they aren’t welcome here for saying it, or like there is something wrong with them for disliking some part of the game. You can’t deny you’re a major player in this refutation of the negative campaign and have been for years. Every game forum seems to have this sort of back and forth in some capacity. It’s more a question of how far it goes and what form it takes.

Interestingly, in my observations of this forum in the past and current, it doesn’t seem to have anyone who is dedicated to making a negative campaign against the game (something which some game forums do have). And that may be why it’s more noticeable that people like yourself are so quick to try to undermine negative opinions. Heck, in my case, at the height of my negativity (which was probably in post-HoT release disenfranchisement) I think I was still pretty mild and trying to find some positives.

Labjax.2465:

I don’t know, seems to me like you just did exactly what he described. Not an hour after he posted and you’ve already written this multi-paragraph analysis to try to undermine what he’s saying. “Professional team of posters” might be overstating it, but there are certainly dedicated defenders like yourself around.

Does that surprise you? I would guess the active posters on a game forum are primarily invested players who spend a lot of their time in the game. For that to be true, they likely feel mostly positive toward it. Additionally, they likely are reasonably experienced. So it is only normal to see them disagree with criticism which can be summarized into “game too hard, fix pls”.

@;Labjax.2465

The point is I’m not personally insulting people who disagree with me, and if people take it what way, I’m sorry.

I do personally have something to say people people saying the new zones are dead, because it’s factually untrue. I disagree with people who say the new zones are dead because you need LFG to get to them, because that’s how they were designed. It doesn’t make them dead, any mote than it makes any other form of content that needs coordination and people dead to use tools to find people to do it.

I’ve also said the core game doesn’t adequately prepare people for the expansion, unless they’ve played LS 2 all the way through, or possibly LS 1.

However, I’ve never said people are professional complainers because they don’t like the zone. I’m simply suggesting they may not exist in the same numbers as people assume they do. People saying there are so many complaints and not so much support are demonstably wrong,, by the 50/50 post count I pointed out before.

One person is saying it’s this way and I’m saying it’s not so cut and dried. I’m not sure those are the same things.

I never claimed to be part of any majority. I just don’t think those that are complaining, often using hyperbole or even actual misinformation, are helping their own position by doing so.

For example, anyone who spends as much time in HoT as I do will tell you for a fact it’s not dead.

A person who goes to DS and doesn’t use LFG and doesn’t know how to get to an active map might well think it is and may well post about it, but that doesn’t mean I have to sit silently and allow it to get by.

My argument is, and has always been, that the expansion was a mixed success. That some people really like it and some people don’t like it and no one group has any kind of majority.

Further, the people who don’t like it are very much divided on why they don’t like it. Some are saying the mobs are too hard, some are saying the maps are too complex, some don’t like the timer, or the mini-games. They’re all different complaints.

Furthermore, I’m saying that there were many other factors that affected sales of HoT including bad pricing, the character slot debacle, the choice to nerf dungeon gold completely, the way fractals were handled at first, and they WvW new map fiasco.

There’s lots wrong besides the new zone being hard or confusing to some people. Trying to use lacklustre sales as evidence of any one point of view is just a guess at best.

I’m not saying people aren’t entitled to dislike the expansion. I’m not saying that they’re professional complainers, and I don’t appreciate being called a professional defender myself.

But that’s no reason for me not to provide the other side of the coin.

Have you missed where I’ve said the core game really doesn’t prepare people adequately for HoT? Have you missed where I’ve said I don’t claim to be part of any majority?

But I will pipe up if people claim those zones are dead, because it’s factually untrue. Two weeks ago, I took a returning guildie through AB, TD and DS completion. Took us several hours. There were only two of us.

I’m pretty sure if it were dead, we couldn’t have managed thatg.

To that end, I’m willing to run zone completes of any HOT zone with any one on a US server to prove my point.

All along I’ve said I’ll show people how to do this. Some people have taken me up on it, but not many. Of those who have taken me up on it, most of them continue to play HOT content.

Most likely if the OP jumped right from Zhaitan to HoT, he might have the character full greens and yellows, Maybe if he try to equip his character with exotics at least it might be a better experience.

Problem with expansion is that maps are god awfull mazes which I don’t like. Who ever designed them is some sick jumping puzzle freak. Went with my Guardian main there only once and havent even came back. Tangled depths, oh my god….Awfull maps.

New expansion needs to be linear fun desert/oasis type with maybe some underground aspects like fire/lava caves with no mazes.

Best example of a good map is silverwastes.
Best example of bad map: HoT maps, Dry Top, this new map which I dont even know its name cause its lame maze underground map.

Danicus.4952:

I apologize for my negative disposition with HOT. I have posted on a few threads over the years about my dissatisfaction with HOT, and I see many familiar defenders of HOT on this thread. I do find resonance with this OP, and many others that have had similar experiences. It feels like the conversation hasn’t really evolved though. Many new players enjoy core Tyria, and run into a wall in HOT. They make their point on the forum, and there’s almost a professional team of posters ready to smack them down with honed arguments of why the OP’s experience isn’t valid. So I will retire for a few months again and see if things have changed. Good luck OP, there are people out there that understand your experience of HOT and support your point of view.

Yeah, I’m with you. I decided to uninstall GW2. I have no interest in this different game called HOT. It’s not my cup of tea. It is sad. Got back into the game, made the climb to 80 and really enjoyed the core game. But HOT killed the entire game for me in under 2 days. I’m gonna go play xcom2 The long war 2. Good luck.

Vayne.8563:

I disagree with people who say the new zones are dead because you need LFG to get to them, because that’s how they were designed. It doesn’t make them dead, any mote than it makes any other form of content that needs coordination and people dead to use tools to find people to do it.

I don’t believe this to be the full story. The way mega server shards seem to propagate, and the number of people actually needed to complete zone metas says to me that ANet designed meta events to function independently of the LFG. If people stayed put, the mega server algorithms would likely result in most shards having enough people to advance a zone’s meta event. However, if people leave a zone to flock to fuller zones, this results in other shards being under-populated.

Throw in that there are (likely) a lot more followers than leaders. Even if there are enough people to complete an event, if the zone does not look organized, people will go to one that does. There is overwhelming evidence on these and other forums that as the MMO consumer base has aged, convenience has become of paramount importance.

I believe that the only way to ensure that mega shards don’t appear dead would be for convenience tools like the LFG and Join In to be removed. If that occurred, people might step up. I say might because while that’s what used to happen with dedicated servers, we also saw people guesting even back then. Guesting was a preview of the mega-server/LFG paradigm that’s in place now. I also say might because once a developer gives players convenience, at least some of them will rage and quit if that convenience is removed rather than reverting to a play-style where initiative and enterprise prevail.

Convenience, short attention spans and a desire for rapid gratification also cause at least some of the antipathy towards the LFG “solution” to “dead” zones. Once someone experiences the frustration of a “zone is full” notice when trying to Join In, the willingness to keep trying or come back later can get trumped by the myriad other forms of entertainment available on demand or other life concerns.

I really don’t think that there is a developer-side solution to the problem. ANet cannot remove the LFG or Join In without earning even more criticism than “dead” HoT maps bring. They cannot change peoples’ natures to make them choose a path of greater resistance. At best, they might be able to tweak the algorithms which open and close shards or change zone caps. I’m not convinced that either numerical manipulation would be better, though.

TL:DR: Mega-servers are designed so that most maps will have enough people to progress the meta. The “dead maps” issue’s primary cause is LFG/Join In, and there is little to nothing ANet can do to fix it. As seems to be par for the course in MMO’s these days, convenience is both the cause of complaints about the issue and the cause of the issue.

Vayne.8563:

Djinn.9245:

Vayne.8563:

Danicus.4952:

I apologize for my negative disposition with HOT. I have posted on a few threads over the years about my dissatisfaction with HOT, and I see many familiar defenders of HOT on this thread. I do find resonance with this OP, and many others that have had similar experiences. It feels like the conversation hasn’t really evolved though. Many new players enjoy core Tyria, and run into a wall in HOT. They make their point on the forum, and there’s almost a professional team of posters ready to smack them down with honed arguments of why the OP’s experience isn’t valid. So I will retire for a few months again and see if things have changed. Good luck OP, there are people out there that understand your experience of HOT and support your point of view.

Even early on the support/I hate hot threads had about 50/50 on the posters. One side doesn’t have any kind of clear demograhic.

On top of that, the game did well for many many months, at least 3-4 quarters after HoT launched before it started to slip. HoT wasn’t as detrimental to the game as some people make it sound.

It lost some casual players, it picked up some raiders.

And since it’s been proven that more people will complain than compliment, I believe most people didn’t share the same complaints about HoT as the OP though undoubtedly some did. Also those complaints are split into two major groups, difficulty, of content and how confusing the map is. Not everyone who is confused by the map wants the easy content. Not everyone that wants the easy content necessarily wants simple maps. You don’t like it so strongly you’re assuming most people or a ton of people feel like you do. It’s probably not as high a percentage as you think.

All that said, if you post a negative post on something like Reddit, which is not moderator but fan moderated, you’ll find that they tend to get downvoted. That is to say the reddit audience has more people that like the new map complexity and difficulty than don’t.

Of course, that’s not really indicating anything since those people are in fact, more dedicated to the game and likely represent more skilled players.

Still its’ not as cut and dried as you seem to think.

Reading your response, I am compelled to ask what it has to do with the post you are replying to?

Vayne.8563:

You don’t like it so strongly you’re assuming most people or a ton of people feel like you do. It’s probably not as high a percentage as you think.

And specifically, where does he say this?

Where does he say this? It’s implied by this series of statements.

Ah, you’re putting words in his mouth. Back to not bothering to respond to you.

Vayne.8563:

@;Labjax.2465

The point is I’m not personally insulting people who disagree with me, and if people take it what way, I’m sorry.

I do personally have something to say people people saying the new zones are dead, because it’s factually untrue. I disagree with people who say the new zones are dead because you need LFG to get to them, because that’s how they were designed. It doesn’t make them dead, any mote than it makes any other form of content that needs coordination and people dead to use tools to find people to do it.

I’ve also said the core game doesn’t adequately prepare people for the expansion, unless they’ve played LS 2 all the way through, or possibly LS 1.

However, I’ve never said people are professional complainers because they don’t like the zone. I’m simply suggesting they may not exist in the same numbers as people assume they do. People saying there are so many complaints and not so much support are demonstably wrong,, by the 50/50 post count I pointed out before.

One person is saying it’s this way and I’m saying it’s not so cut and dried. I’m not sure those are the same things.

I never claimed to be part of any majority. I just don’t think those that are complaining, often using hyperbole or even actual misinformation, are helping their own position by doing so.

For example, anyone who spends as much time in HoT as I do will tell you for a fact it’s not dead.

A person who goes to DS and doesn’t use LFG and doesn’t know how to get to an active map might well think it is and may well post about it, but that doesn’t mean I have to sit silently and allow it to get by.

My argument is, and has always been, that the expansion was a mixed success. That some people really like it and some people don’t like it and no one group has any kind of majority.

Further, the people who don’t like it are very much divided on why they don’t like it. Some are saying the mobs are too hard, some are saying the maps are too complex, some don’t like the timer, or the mini-games. They’re all different complaints.

Furthermore, I’m saying that there were many other factors that affected sales of HoT including bad pricing, the character slot debacle, the choice to nerf dungeon gold completely, the way fractals were handled at first, and they WvW new map fiasco.

There’s lots wrong besides the new zone being hard or confusing to some people. Trying to use lacklustre sales as evidence of any one point of view is just a guess at best.

I’m not saying people aren’t entitled to dislike the expansion. I’m not saying that they’re professional complainers, and I don’t appreciate being called a professional defender myself.

But that’s no reason for me not to provide the other side of the coin.

Have you missed where I’ve said the core game really doesn’t prepare people adequately for HoT? Have you missed where I’ve said I don’t claim to be part of any majority?

But I will pipe up if people claim those zones are dead, because it’s factually untrue. Two weeks ago, I took a returning guildie through AB, TD and DS completion. Took us several hours. There were only two of us.

I’m pretty sure if it were dead, we couldn’t have managed thatg.

To that end, I’m willing to run zone completes of any HOT zone with any one on a US server to prove my point.

All along I’ve said I’ll show people how to do this. Some people have taken me up on it, but not many. Of those who have taken me up on it, most of them continue to play HOT content.

I will give you that. I don’t think I’ve ever seen you insult people over not liking something in the game.

Anyway, I don’t think I have anything pressing to say at the moment in continuing that particular subject. As far as I’m concerned, I said my piece and you said yours. It is what it is.