Nightfall CE vs Heart of Thorns
And the actual product is $50, not $60.
If you believe that, then you have been successfully fooled by marketing. Anet knows that many players will need a new character slot to play the revenant. So they know people will have to fork over an extra $10 bucks to play it.
That inflates the price to $60, whether you like it or not. This is why previous chapters of Guild Wars 1 always included a number of extra character slots equal to the amount of new professions added.
“Madness is just another way to view reality”
(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D-On3Ya0_4Y)
(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D-On3Ya0_4Y)
And the actual product is $50, not $60.
If you believe that, then you have been successfully fooled by marketing. Anet knows that many players will need a new character slot to play the revenant. So they know people will have to fork over an extra $10 bucks to play it.
That inflates the price to $60, whether you like it or not. This is why previous chapters of Guild Wars 1 always included a number of extra character slots equal to the amount of new professions added.
You can also buy that character slot with gold someone that is an old player and has been playing for 3 years should have enough to buy a single character slot.
Or even Achievement Points, you get 400 gems every 5k APs it’s not uncommon for an old player to have 10k AP by this point, so enough to get that slot.
(edited by maddoctor.2738)
You can also buy that character slot with gold someone that is an old player and has been playing for 3 years should have enough to buy a single character slot.
Or even Achievement Points, you get 400 gems every 5k APs it’s not uncommon for an old player to have 10k AP by this point, so enough to get that slot.
That’s still an investment. I think it is safe to say that gems have a dollar value attached to them. And since gems can be bought with gold, gold has a dollar value attached to it as well by default. This means that the game allows you to work, in order to earn a digital currency that has a certain dollar value in-game (not outside of it).
So you are paying for it. You are just paying for it with a digital currency instead of real dollars. That doesn’t mean you are getting the character slot for free.
“Madness is just another way to view reality”
(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D-On3Ya0_4Y)
(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D-On3Ya0_4Y)
You can also buy that character slot with gold someone that is an old player and has been playing for 3 years should have enough to buy a single character slot.
Or even Achievement Points, you get 400 gems every 5k APs it’s not uncommon for an old player to have 10k AP by this point, so enough to get that slot.
That’s still an investment. I think it is safe to say that gems have a dollar value attached to them. And since gems can be bought with gold, gold has a dollar value attached to it as well by default. This means that the game allows you to work, in order to earn a digital currency that has a certain dollar value in-game (not outside of it).
So you are paying for it. You are just paying for it with a digital currency instead of real dollars. That doesn’t mean you are getting the character slot for free.
You get gold and even gems simply by playing the game doing what you want and playing what you want. You don’t have to “work” for them unless you want to. So the character slot comes as a bonus from doing what you are already doing anyway.
This is the main “problem” with the gem store really. They have to balance the cost in gems for anything to be both reasonable if you use cash (which is hardly the case on many things) and a reasonable price to get them with gold.
You cannot convert gold into dollars directly. You cannot go and use your gold to buy anything outside the gem store, so the value of that gold isn’t the same.
You get gold and even gems simply by playing the game doing what you want and playing what you want. You don’t have to “work” for them unless you want to. So the character slot comes as a bonus from doing what you are already doing anyway.
I don’t agree that it works that way. You are spending gold after all, so you are spending money.
This is the main “problem” with the gem store really. They have to balance the cost in gems for anything to be both reasonable if you use cash (which is hardly the case on many things) and a reasonable price to get them with gold.
You cannot convert gold into dollars directly. You cannot go and use your gold to buy anything outside the gem store, so the value of that gold isn’t the same.
I agree, it is nearly impossible to put an exact value on gold. But I wouldn’t say the value of gold is zero. You are making an investment, so the character slot isn’t free.
“Madness is just another way to view reality”
(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D-On3Ya0_4Y)
(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D-On3Ya0_4Y)
are you sure you only paid $50 for the CE?
This the price of standard edition at launch:
https://web.archive.org/web/20061105210932/https://store.plaync.com/home.php?cat=251
$49.99
This page here:
https://web.archive.org/web/20080414172923/http://guildwars.wikia.com/wiki/Collector's_Edition
suggests collectors edition carry the $70 price tag though its hard to find out how much something really sold for so many years ago.
You can also buy that character slot with gold someone that is an old player and has been playing for 3 years should have enough to buy a single character slot.
Or even Achievement Points, you get 400 gems every 5k APs it’s not uncommon for an old player to have 10k AP by this point, so enough to get that slot.
That’s still an investment. I think it is safe to say that gems have a dollar value attached to them. And since gems can be bought with gold, gold has a dollar value attached to it as well by default. This means that the game allows you to work, in order to earn a digital currency that has a certain dollar value in-game (not outside of it).
So you are paying for it. You are just paying for it with a digital currency instead of real dollars. That doesn’t mean you are getting the character slot for free.
You get gold and even gems simply by playing the game doing what you want and playing what you want. You don’t have to “work” for them unless you want to. So the character slot comes as a bonus from doing what you are already doing anyway.
This is the main “problem” with the gem store really. They have to balance the cost in gems for anything to be both reasonable if you use cash (which is hardly the case on many things) and a reasonable price to get them with gold.
You cannot convert gold into dollars directly. You cannot go and use your gold to buy anything outside the gem store, so the value of that gold isn’t the same.
How much you enjoy your work has little to do with monetary value, also weather you recieve small amounts of money with little effort doesnt mean its free money.
If your savings account earns you 40 dollars it doesnt mean it was free money.
The gold you earn has a value even if you arent legally allowed to sell it. Anet capitalizes on it. Point is trading gold for items isnt free. You are spending a resource you earned which is used to generate revenue for anet.
Is someone trading shoes they make for food to eat getting free food? Should they ignore that it costs them 4 hours to make the shoes when they trade it for food?
People get confused by gold you are working for it, and youd be generally better off buying it than trying to earn it in game, effeciency wise.
10 dollars (100 gold/800gems) of in game gold is for most players a lot more work than 10 dollars of real money.
The original price of the Nightfall CE was much more expensive than 50.
I don’t think so.
Yeah, I think so.
Don’t compare a 9 year old game’s price with an upcoming expansion.
Why not? Same company, same price. It is entirely justified to compare the value for the same price.
[/quote]
Be cause in a couple years you can buy the addon for 10€ i am sure.
Also you get a ton of updates in the future.
You are not paying for the updates, you are paying for the expansion. Besides, Nightfall also got plenty of updates, including a whole endgame area. So that argument is void.
[/quote]
Yes you are. That’s the point
‘would have/would’ve been’ —> correct
‘would of been’ —> wrong
‘would of been’ —> wrong
@phys.7689
Well you see that’s the thing. Having experienced many, many MMOs I’ve yet to find one with all the features that I like. Not one.
So I don’t really want to do a bunch of static quests, like in FF or ESO. Those things don’t really interest me. Even though the quests in ESO are voiced, they feel so much the same old. It doesn’t feel organic to me, and that’s really the issue. This game does feel organic and most others don’t.
I don’t want to have to compete with someone for kills or nodes. That’s a big thing for me. I want to be happy when I see other players. Nor do I want to play a game that claims to be free to play, but you really have to sub. I don’t mind paying a sub. I don’t like people saying their game is free, when it’s only free in name. I’ve played too many of them.
I prefer active combat, to passive combat. I don’t really love cartoony graphics like WoW or Wildstar. And I don’t love games that focus on instances. And I don’t like the holy trinity.
You start going through that list and suggest to me one other game that has what I like and I’d be happy to try it. The fact is you can count on one hand games that don’t really focus on instance that don’t have a trinity.
That’s all down to what Anet has created. HoT is an extension of that creation. When you add in stuff like Guild Halls (and the guild halls in most games aren’t going to be entire guild zones) and you add in not raising the level cap or adding a new tier of gear (that’s certainly unusual for any MMO expansion), then you have something that’s very different. Maybe you’re looking in different places than I am.
In fact, I’m not sure how many MMOs there are that won’t add a new tier of gear and won’t add more levels. That’s a major selling point for me.
Those are differences that matter, but they arent getting expanded on in Hot.
Hot so far has shown nothing that seems to enhance most of the things or ideas you mentioned there. So while yes gw2 is unique, hot is not. Which is fine, but if an expansion is primarily about playing a similar game in slightly new areas/situations then it needs enough new areas and situations to make it worth upgrading. One still has gw2 core, that offers many of those things
Wow, I can’t believe I have to say this. I thought it was obvious.
I like the game and hot expands the game. New territory. New story. New adventures. Gliding. Guild Halls.
What am I going to do? Take the only MMO that’s reasonable fun for me and not play the new stuff because I don’t want to spend $50 on it, because someone doesn’t think there’s enough content? That’s ludicrous.
HoT has done the only thing it needs to do. It expands the game I love WITHOUT raising the level cap and WITHOUT adding a new tier of gear.
But there’s one more thing. HoT also offers me horizontal progression through masteries, which to me alone is worth the price of admission.
Those who don’t buy hot can’t grow their characters at all, and can’t explore the new territory. They won’t be able to take advantage of the new AI.
Seems like a no brainer to me.
10 dollars (100 gold/800gems) of in game gold is for most players a lot more work than 10 dollars of real money.
But you are not “working” for the gold, unless you want to. Gold, and through achievements even gems directly, come from you doing what you enjoy the most. It’s your choice if you equate earning gold with work, if you do things you don’t enjoy just to get it. But you don’t HAVE to, you can do only things you enjoy and still get enough gold to buy that character slot, without ever doing something you dislike.
The gold/gems come as a bonus for your play time. It’s like every time you watch a movie you earn a discount for the next one. Gather enough discounts and you might get to watch one movie for free.
@phys.7689
Well you see that’s the thing. Having experienced many, many MMOs I’ve yet to find one with all the features that I like. Not one.
So I don’t really want to do a bunch of static quests, like in FF or ESO. Those things don’t really interest me. Even though the quests in ESO are voiced, they feel so much the same old. It doesn’t feel organic to me, and that’s really the issue. This game does feel organic and most others don’t.
I don’t want to have to compete with someone for kills or nodes. That’s a big thing for me. I want to be happy when I see other players. Nor do I want to play a game that claims to be free to play, but you really have to sub. I don’t mind paying a sub. I don’t like people saying their game is free, when it’s only free in name. I’ve played too many of them.
I prefer active combat, to passive combat. I don’t really love cartoony graphics like WoW or Wildstar. And I don’t love games that focus on instances. And I don’t like the holy trinity.
You start going through that list and suggest to me one other game that has what I like and I’d be happy to try it. The fact is you can count on one hand games that don’t really focus on instance that don’t have a trinity.
That’s all down to what Anet has created. HoT is an extension of that creation. When you add in stuff like Guild Halls (and the guild halls in most games aren’t going to be entire guild zones) and you add in not raising the level cap or adding a new tier of gear (that’s certainly unusual for any MMO expansion), then you have something that’s very different. Maybe you’re looking in different places than I am.
In fact, I’m not sure how many MMOs there are that won’t add a new tier of gear and won’t add more levels. That’s a major selling point for me.
Those are differences that matter, but they arent getting expanded on in Hot.
Hot so far has shown nothing that seems to enhance most of the things or ideas you mentioned there. So while yes gw2 is unique, hot is not. Which is fine, but if an expansion is primarily about playing a similar game in slightly new areas/situations then it needs enough new areas and situations to make it worth upgrading. One still has gw2 core, that offers many of those things
Wow, I can’t believe I have to say this. I thought it was obvious.
I like the game and hot expands the game. New territory. New story. New adventures. Gliding. Guild Halls.
What am I going to do? Take the only MMO that’s reasonable fun for me and not play the new stuff because I don’t want to spend $50 on it, because someone doesn’t think there’s enough content? That’s ludicrous.
HoT has done the only thing it needs to do. It expands the game I love WITHOUT raising the level cap and WITHOUT adding a new tier of gear.
But there’s one more thing. HoT also offers me horizontal progression through masteries, which to me alone is worth the price of admission.
Those who don’t buy hot can’t grow their characters at all, and can’t explore the new territory. They won’t be able to take advantage of the new AI.
Seems like a no brainer to me.
Valid points but essentially you are saying even a small offering is worthwhile because you love the base game so much.
Other people are trying to compare it more objectively and relatively. So yeah you were going to buy it regardless, barring an insane price or some earth shattering change. But that doesnt make you the best person to accurately discuss its value.
And the actual product is $50, not $60.
If you believe that, then you have been successfully fooled by marketing. Anet knows that many players will need a new character slot to play the revenant. So they know people will have to fork over an extra $10 bucks to play it.
That inflates the price to $60, whether you like it or not. This is why previous chapters of Guild Wars 1 always included a number of extra character slots equal to the amount of new professions added.
So then by your same logic Gw2 Core didnt cost $60 but $1210 since you need 8 professions x 5 races x 3 personal story branches = 120 character slots to experiance all the core game has to offer and you only get 5. That leaves you 115 short so you had to buy $1150 worth of slots on top of the $60. actually strictly speaking you need to buy 2 copies if you want 120 slots so technically its $60 more but lets forget about that cost for now. wow Heart of Thorns is a real bargain at just $60.
Are you really suggesting thats a fair assessement?
The extra character slot is an optional purchase much like buying 115 more character slots for the core game is an optional purchase. For starters not everyone has 5 alts, even those that have 5 alts may have already bought more slots and they may not have been filled (example I had 2 free slots before they even announced HoT). Even if you have no free slots, there is the gold option or even delete one of you existing character slots. Or if you dont want to do any of that and just dont want to spend an extra $10 and neither do you want to prepurchase, you also have the option of applying HoT to a new account and you get not 1 but 5 free slots. Plenty of ways how you can avoid that $10, saying its mandatory is simply disingenuous.
are you sure you only paid $50 for the CE?
This the price of standard edition at launch:
https://web.archive.org/web/20061105210932/https://store.plaync.com/home.php?cat=251$49.99
This page here:
https://web.archive.org/web/20080414172923/http://guildwars.wikia.com/wiki/Collector's_Edition
suggests collectors edition carry the $70 price tag though its hard to find out how much something really sold for so many years ago.
Here are the prices of Nightfall:
Guild Wars Nightfall (the BASE game) was 49.99 USD. The price of Guild Wars Nightfall Collector’s Edition was 59.99 USD.
Those are MSRP (manufacturer’s suggested retail price) at the time of release. Depending on where someone got them, and when of course, the price might differ.
Sources:
http://www.ign.com/games/guild-wars-nightfall/pc-822537
http://www.ign.com/games/guild-wars-nightfall/pc-850088
How much you enjoy your work has little to do with monetary value, also weather you recieve small amounts of money with little effort doesnt mean its free money.
If your savings account earns you 40 dollars it doesnt mean it was free money.The gold you earn has a value even if you arent legally allowed to sell it. Anet capitalizes on it. Point is trading gold for items isnt free. You are spending a resource you earned which is used to generate revenue for anet.
Is someone trading shoes they make for food to eat getting free food? Should they ignore that it costs them 4 hours to make the shoes when they trade it for food?
People get confused by gold you are working for it, and youd be generally better off buying it than trying to earn it in game, effeciency wise.
10 dollars (100 gold/800gems) of in game gold is for most players a lot more work than 10 dollars of real money.
No it doesnt. If I spend 20 hrs reading a book , how much value is that? Can I trade that for anything really? Playing a game is not work, its entertainment, what you’re getting out of it is enjoyment. The gold you get isnt really money in any shape or form, its merely a token used in the game mechanics to provide you with more complexity.
Without being able to sell its essentially worthless. No bank is going to give me a loan based on all the gold I have in Gw2 no matter how many times I explain the hours that went into generating it could have generated me way more then the colleteral requested by the bank had I worked a real job instead.
Getting a free character slot usinging ingame money wouldnt be any different then getting that nice expensive skin you’re after from the trading post. In both cases you didnt “work” for it, its a reward for playing (and hopefully enjoying yourself) for X amount of hours.
10 dollars (100 gold/800gems) of in game gold is for most players a lot more work than 10 dollars of real money.
But you are not “working” for the gold, unless you want to. Gold, and through achievements even gems directly, come from you doing what you enjoy the most. It’s your choice if you equate earning gold with work, if you do things you don’t enjoy just to get it. But you don’t HAVE to, you can do only things you enjoy and still get enough gold to buy that character slot, without ever doing something you dislike.
The gold/gems come as a bonus for your play time. It’s like every time you watch a movie you earn a discount for the next one. Gather enough discounts and you might get to watch one movie for free.
I disagree wholeheartedly with this type of reasoning. Just because you enjoy a job doesnt mean you should burn your earnings from it willy nilly or ignore the time spent doing it.
Even if i enjoy creating a painting, that doesnt mean i should sell it cheaply, or ignore it may have taken me 30 man hours to create.
Even with your reasoning, its still illogical to consider the resource you gained to be free.
Lets say you earned 1000 sky miles flying around. Someone wants you to fly cross country to hang out, and says hey its free! Not really, the trip must still be weighed against all the other trips you could have taken, and thus still has a cost monetarily equal to the cost of the flight.
are you sure you only paid $50 for the CE?
This the price of standard edition at launch:
https://web.archive.org/web/20061105210932/https://store.plaync.com/home.php?cat=251$49.99
This page here:
https://web.archive.org/web/20080414172923/http://guildwars.wikia.com/wiki/Collector's_Edition
suggests collectors edition carry the $70 price tag though its hard to find out how much something really sold for so many years ago.Here are the prices of Nightfall:
Guild Wars Nightfall (the BASE game) was 49.99 USD. The price of Guild Wars Nightfall Collector’s Edition was 59.99 USD.Those are MSRP (manufacturer’s suggested retail price) at the time of release. Depending on where someone got them, and when of course, the price might differ.
Sources:
http://www.ign.com/games/guild-wars-nightfall/pc-822537
http://www.ign.com/games/guild-wars-nightfall/pc-850088
Its also important to note each collectors edition was a limited edition, I highly doubt before sometime after launch it could have been possible to get one for less then MSRP
though to be fair there are posts around of cheap versions as early as december (2 months after release) also posts that state prices as high as $175 in that same time period.
So then by your same logic Gw2 Core didnt cost $60 but $1210 since you need 8 professions x 5 races x 3 personal story branches = 120 character slots to experiance all the core game has to offer and you only get 5. That leaves you 115 short so you had to buy $1150 worth of slots on top of the $60. actually strictly speaking you need to buy 2 copies if you want 120 slots so technically its $60 more but lets forget about that cost for now. wow Heart of Thorns is a real bargain at just $60.
I would say that by not including enough character slots to play all of the professions, that we were indeed not getting a very good deal with the core game either.
Are you really suggesting thats a fair assessement?
Anet decides the price tag of a character slot. I don’t agree with your creative number juggling, but I do agree that the original game should have given us more character slots for the money we original paid. That said though, we DID get a full game worth of content, which is not what we are getting this time around (yet for the same price, and without any character slot)
The extra character slot is an optional purchase much like buying 115 more character slots for the core game is an optional purchase.
I’m sure they’d love you at their marketing department. Fortunately many of us don’t see it that way, and have a more grounded view of game-content versus price.
Plenty of ways how you can avoid that $10, saying its mandatory is simply disingenuous.
You are still paying for the character slot, and you will most likely need it. To claim that it is entirely optional is exactly what the marketing department wants you to think.
But the expansion does give you one new profession, and if you’ve used up your character slots (which were already not enough for all the classes) then you will need a new one. How you go about getting it makes very little difference. You can pay for it with dollars, euros, gems or gold. But either way it raises the actual price of the product.
“Madness is just another way to view reality”
(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D-On3Ya0_4Y)
(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D-On3Ya0_4Y)
How much you enjoy your work has little to do with monetary value, also weather you recieve small amounts of money with little effort doesnt mean its free money.
If your savings account earns you 40 dollars it doesnt mean it was free money.The gold you earn has a value even if you arent legally allowed to sell it. Anet capitalizes on it. Point is trading gold for items isnt free. You are spending a resource you earned which is used to generate revenue for anet.
Is someone trading shoes they make for food to eat getting free food? Should they ignore that it costs them 4 hours to make the shoes when they trade it for food?
People get confused by gold you are working for it, and youd be generally better off buying it than trying to earn it in game, effeciency wise.
10 dollars (100 gold/800gems) of in game gold is for most players a lot more work than 10 dollars of real money.
No it doesnt. If I spend 20 hrs reading a book , how much value is that? Can I trade that for anything really? Playing a game is not work, its entertainment, what you’re getting out of it is enjoyment. The gold you get isnt really money in any shape or form, its merely a token used in the game mechanics to provide you with more complexity.
Without being able to sell its essentially worthless. No bank is going to give me a loan based on all the gold I have in Gw2 no matter how many times I explain the hours that went into generating it could have generated me way more then the colleteral requested by the bank had I worked a real job instead.
Getting a free character slot usinging ingame money wouldnt be any different then getting that nice expensive skin you’re after from the trading post. In both cases you didnt “work” for it, its a reward for playing (and hopefully enjoying yourself) for X amount of hours.
Your gold has value because anet sells it, and because you can use it to buy things which have monetary value.
If i get paid to write books by say, target. Who pays me in target credits. My book reading has value. Monetary value.
Target sells my books
And i get things of monetary value in exchange.
How much i enjoy writing is irrelevant to the value of my writing
10 dollars (100 gold/800gems) of in game gold is for most players a lot more work than 10 dollars of real money.
But you are not “working” for the gold, unless you want to. Gold, and through achievements even gems directly, come from you doing what you enjoy the most. It’s your choice if you equate earning gold with work, if you do things you don’t enjoy just to get it. But you don’t HAVE to, you can do only things you enjoy and still get enough gold to buy that character slot, without ever doing something you dislike.
The gold/gems come as a bonus for your play time. It’s like every time you watch a movie you earn a discount for the next one. Gather enough discounts and you might get to watch one movie for free.
I disagree wholeheartedly with this type of reasoning. Just because you enjoy a job doesnt mean you should burn your earnings from it willy nilly or ignore the time spent doing it.
Playing a game is entertainment, not a job. IF you think playing is equal to a job then you should stop playing.
Even if i enjoy creating a painting, that doesnt mean i should sell it cheaply, or ignore it may have taken me 30 man hours to create.
Putting actual work behind creating a painting and running a few dungeons for fun is different. IF you are interested in selling your painting then it needs to have a certain amount of quality, it doesn’t matter how long it took to make, if the skill of the painter isn’t high enough. And to have a skill high enough to sell good paintings you are probably doing it as a job, not a simple piece of entertainment like a video game.
Even with your reasoning, its still illogical to consider the resource you gained to be free.
I wish when go and play a 5vs5 football game with my friends I also got some credit to buy a ball or maybe a new pair of shoes but I can’t no matter how much time or effort I put into it. On the other hand, just having fun in GW2 gives me items like character slots.
Lets say you earned 1000 sky miles flying around. Someone wants you to fly cross country to hang out, and says hey its free! Not really, the trip must still be weighed against all the other trips you could have taken, and thus still has a cost monetarily equal to the cost of the flight.
True. Those gems/gold will compete very much to get items from the gem store or the TP that you want. That doesn’t make them equal to real cash. You can’t turn those 1000 sky miles into a new car.
How much you enjoy your work has little to do with monetary value, also weather you recieve small amounts of money with little effort doesnt mean its free money.
If your savings account earns you 40 dollars it doesnt mean it was free money.The gold you earn has a value even if you arent legally allowed to sell it. Anet capitalizes on it. Point is trading gold for items isnt free. You are spending a resource you earned which is used to generate revenue for anet.
Is someone trading shoes they make for food to eat getting free food? Should they ignore that it costs them 4 hours to make the shoes when they trade it for food?
People get confused by gold you are working for it, and youd be generally better off buying it than trying to earn it in game, effeciency wise.
10 dollars (100 gold/800gems) of in game gold is for most players a lot more work than 10 dollars of real money.
No it doesnt. If I spend 20 hrs reading a book , how much value is that? Can I trade that for anything really? Playing a game is not work, its entertainment, what you’re getting out of it is enjoyment. The gold you get isnt really money in any shape or form, its merely a token used in the game mechanics to provide you with more complexity.
Without being able to sell its essentially worthless. No bank is going to give me a loan based on all the gold I have in Gw2 no matter how many times I explain the hours that went into generating it could have generated me way more then the colleteral requested by the bank had I worked a real job instead.
Getting a free character slot usinging ingame money wouldnt be any different then getting that nice expensive skin you’re after from the trading post. In both cases you didnt “work” for it, its a reward for playing (and hopefully enjoying yourself) for X amount of hours.
Your gold has value because anet sells it, and because you can use it to buy things which have monetary value.
If i get paid to write books by say, target. Who pays me in target credits. My book reading has value. Monetary value.
Target sells my books
And i get things of monetary value in exchange.How much i enjoy writing is irrelevant to the value of my writing
You are writing as a paid job. Playing a game isn’t a job.
How much you enjoy your work has little to do with monetary value, also weather you recieve small amounts of money with little effort doesnt mean its free money.
If your savings account earns you 40 dollars it doesnt mean it was free money.The gold you earn has a value even if you arent legally allowed to sell it. Anet capitalizes on it. Point is trading gold for items isnt free. You are spending a resource you earned which is used to generate revenue for anet.
Is someone trading shoes they make for food to eat getting free food? Should they ignore that it costs them 4 hours to make the shoes when they trade it for food?
People get confused by gold you are working for it, and youd be generally better off buying it than trying to earn it in game, effeciency wise.
10 dollars (100 gold/800gems) of in game gold is for most players a lot more work than 10 dollars of real money.
No it doesnt. If I spend 20 hrs reading a book , how much value is that? Can I trade that for anything really? Playing a game is not work, its entertainment, what you’re getting out of it is enjoyment. The gold you get isnt really money in any shape or form, its merely a token used in the game mechanics to provide you with more complexity.
Without being able to sell its essentially worthless. No bank is going to give me a loan based on all the gold I have in Gw2 no matter how many times I explain the hours that went into generating it could have generated me way more then the colleteral requested by the bank had I worked a real job instead.
Getting a free character slot usinging ingame money wouldnt be any different then getting that nice expensive skin you’re after from the trading post. In both cases you didnt “work” for it, its a reward for playing (and hopefully enjoying yourself) for X amount of hours.
Your gold has value because anet sells it, and because you can use it to buy things which have monetary value.
If i get paid to write books by say, target. Who pays me in target credits. My book reading has value. Monetary value.
Target sells my books
And i get things of monetary value in exchange.How much i enjoy writing is irrelevant to the value of my writing
You are writing as a paid job. Playing a game isn’t a job.
Anything you do that can make money has monetary value, wether you realize it or not.
Just because something is entertaining does not mean it has no monetary value.
If you realized this, and had the desire to, you probably could get money from your 5 on 5 games.
People in Fact can, and do.
Sponsorship
Make youtube videos of your games
Sell tickets
Create local tournaments
Regardless any resource you have to earn and can be spent has value. Its not “free” 10 hours of your in game earnings has a market value of 10 dollars. You can pay for it with 10 american or 100 gold tyrian doesnt change the fact you are paying.
@phys.7689
Well you see that’s the thing. Having experienced many, many MMOs I’ve yet to find one with all the features that I like. Not one.
So I don’t really want to do a bunch of static quests, like in FF or ESO. Those things don’t really interest me. Even though the quests in ESO are voiced, they feel so much the same old. It doesn’t feel organic to me, and that’s really the issue. This game does feel organic and most others don’t.
I don’t want to have to compete with someone for kills or nodes. That’s a big thing for me. I want to be happy when I see other players. Nor do I want to play a game that claims to be free to play, but you really have to sub. I don’t mind paying a sub. I don’t like people saying their game is free, when it’s only free in name. I’ve played too many of them.
I prefer active combat, to passive combat. I don’t really love cartoony graphics like WoW or Wildstar. And I don’t love games that focus on instances. And I don’t like the holy trinity.
You start going through that list and suggest to me one other game that has what I like and I’d be happy to try it. The fact is you can count on one hand games that don’t really focus on instance that don’t have a trinity.
That’s all down to what Anet has created. HoT is an extension of that creation. When you add in stuff like Guild Halls (and the guild halls in most games aren’t going to be entire guild zones) and you add in not raising the level cap or adding a new tier of gear (that’s certainly unusual for any MMO expansion), then you have something that’s very different. Maybe you’re looking in different places than I am.
In fact, I’m not sure how many MMOs there are that won’t add a new tier of gear and won’t add more levels. That’s a major selling point for me.
Those are differences that matter, but they arent getting expanded on in Hot.
Hot so far has shown nothing that seems to enhance most of the things or ideas you mentioned there. So while yes gw2 is unique, hot is not. Which is fine, but if an expansion is primarily about playing a similar game in slightly new areas/situations then it needs enough new areas and situations to make it worth upgrading. One still has gw2 core, that offers many of those things
Wow, I can’t believe I have to say this. I thought it was obvious.
I like the game and hot expands the game. New territory. New story. New adventures. Gliding. Guild Halls.
What am I going to do? Take the only MMO that’s reasonable fun for me and not play the new stuff because I don’t want to spend $50 on it, because someone doesn’t think there’s enough content? That’s ludicrous.
HoT has done the only thing it needs to do. It expands the game I love WITHOUT raising the level cap and WITHOUT adding a new tier of gear.
But there’s one more thing. HoT also offers me horizontal progression through masteries, which to me alone is worth the price of admission.
Those who don’t buy hot can’t grow their characters at all, and can’t explore the new territory. They won’t be able to take advantage of the new AI.
Seems like a no brainer to me.
Valid points but essentially you are saying even a small offering is worthwhile because you love the base game so much.
Other people are trying to compare it more objectively and relatively. So yeah you were going to buy it regardless, barring an insane price or some earth shattering change. But that doesnt make you the best person to accurately discuss its value.
Actually that’s what I’m doing too. You’re just not seeing it.
This game is unique. There’s no MMO like it. If you want to continue your experience in this game, if you want to add progression to your character, it really is a no brainer. Because I’m absolutely convinced that no matter what comes in the box, there’s plenty of free content that will come after.
The problem with “objectivity” and logic is that it only works if you have all the information. Even if you knew every single thing that was in the box, it doesn’t tell you what else you’ll get for owning that box after the fact.
Let’s say you like Fractals. That didn’t exist when Guild Wars 2 launched. It was added later.
Trying to apply logic without all the information only leads to bad conclusions. If people really think an MMO expansion would eventually be worth $50, by all means they shouldn’t buy it. But an MMO isn’t a racing game. You’re not just buying it for what’s in the box. And in my opinion, if you are, you really haven’t been paying attention.
…
Making decisions based on all the currently available info leads to accurate conclusions, based on your info. Should new info come to light you re evaluate your conclusions, thats sound reasoning.
Your basically gambling on anet. Which is fine but its a gamble none the less. The only thing i think people should go by is what anet presented. Anet has told people in the past to measure them by the things they commit to, not the things one might assume, because their process and goals change as they go.
I dont think you can really discuss the possible value of the expansion based on what they may one day release.
Of course this discussion is underway with the caveat of what we currently are aware of. Thats a given. Should they announce 10 new zones and 20 new challenging battles with a 15 hour story arc, we will change our analysis. Should they commit to 30 hours of story and 2 new elite specializations within 4 months after hot release, that would also be considered.
But just believing it with no reasons? We cant really expect to judge the value of the expansion based on random gambles of what we hope may be tbe case. Thats hardly sound advice.
I see a few people that state that we don’t have all the facts yet so any conclusion about content is wrong.
I thus propose a deal. For every single person that did a uninformed purchase of the pre-order, an other person will be allowed here to make a uninformed decision to not purchase the game at all . Both will then have done the same amount of rational thinking regarding this.
Everyone else can then wait and see what the final game will be before doing a informed decision if the asking price is fair for the amount of content that HoT has.
So then by your same logic Gw2 Core didnt cost $60 but $1210 since you need 8 professions x 5 races x 3 personal story branches = 120 character slots to experiance all the core game has to offer and you only get 5. That leaves you 115 short so you had to buy $1150 worth of slots on top of the $60. actually strictly speaking you need to buy 2 copies if you want 120 slots so technically its $60 more but lets forget about that cost for now. wow Heart of Thorns is a real bargain at just $60.
I would say that by not including enough character slots to play all of the professions, that we were indeed not getting a very good deal with the core game either.
Why stop at professions? Is experiancing all professions any less/more important than experiancing all storylines?
Are you really suggesting thats a fair assessement?
Anet decides the price tag of a character slot. I don’t agree with your creative number juggling, but I do agree that the original game should have given us more character slots for the money we original paid. That said though, we DID get a full game worth of content, which is not what we are getting this time around (yet for the same price, and without any character slot)
You’re right it is creative number juggling but what you’re missing is you did exactly the same thing. There is no written law that states you need to have a character slot for every profession there is. As a matter of fact every game has limits on the amount of character slots and in some there even isnt a way around that except playing on a new server (loosing all the friends you made), or actually deleting an existing character. With a sub the cost of playing a new profession increase way more then the price of simply buying a character slot too.
The extra character slot is an optional purchase much like buying 115 more character slots for the core game is an optional purchase.
I’m sure they’d love you at their marketing department. Fortunately many of us don’t see it that way, and have a more grounded view of game-content versus price.
I may be loved by Anet’s marketing department but make no mistake I am sure you’re loved by Anet’s competitors marketing departments too.
Plenty of ways how you can avoid that $10, saying its mandatory is simply disingenuous.
You are still paying for the character slot, and you will most likely need it. To claim that it is entirely optional is exactly what the marketing department wants you to think.
But the expansion does give you one new profession, and if you’ve used up your character slots (which were already not enough for all the classes) then you will need a new one. How you go about getting it makes very little difference. You can pay for it with dollars, euros, gems or gold. But either way it raises the actual price of the product.
getting it with gold, doesnt rise the price. Applying the HoT key on a new account doesnt rise the price in anyway. Deleting an existing character doesnt rise the price. Pre-purchasing doesnt rise the price. So no, your statement is incorrect.
And again thats assuming all slots are filled which might not even be an issue for some. How many people key farm? How many people said the NPE was an issue for them? How many people dont like having alts? How many people bought more slots then they actually needed when they were on sale? (I am guilty of this for example) How many people stated the reason for not buying HoT was they were not interested in the Revenant?
Your gold has value because anet sells it, and because you can use it to buy things which have monetary value.
If i get paid to write books by say, target. Who pays me in target credits. My book reading has value. Monetary value.
Target sells my books
And i get things of monetary value in exchange.How much i enjoy writing is irrelevant to the value of my writing
Thats not how it works. I can buy a monopoly board but just because Hasbro sells it doesnt mean I can then go and buy stuff with monopoly money, I like many other just really really wish that was the case.
Arenanet selling gold isnt any different then arenanet selling a skin. That item only has value for arenanet because they are the only ones who can sell and without the ability to sell it is worthless just like to Hasbro monopoly money is a gold mine but to the customer its not even worth the paper its printed on so to speak.
Adding a bit to this, if we were speaking about say planet calypso where you can actually legally exchange in game money for real money then you’d be right but as long as there is no way to legally exchange in game for real money, in game money has 0 real money value. That you can buy it is irelevant, buying stuff for consumption doesnt make it valueable. Going by your previous I create shoes and then trade those shoes for food example. The shoes have value because you can sell them (trading is esentially selling and buying at the same time) but in your example if you want it to be a perfect analogy one you exchange the shoes for food you’re no longer able to do anything with that food except eating it. You cannot trade that food back for shoes or anything else which essentially means while the shoes(real money) have value, the food (virtual currency) have not. They’re just something you can consume for your enjoyment / Actually staying alive in this case.
(edited by Galen Grey.4709)
I may be loved by Anet’s marketing department but make no mistake I am sure you’re loved by Anet’s competitors marketing departments too.
Apart from DDO and GW2, I don’t play other MMO’s. And DDO has not earned a single penny from that so far.
I have long been a very big supporter of Arena Net. Me and my snowman companion have been organizing large scale community events in Guild Wars 1 and Guild Wars 2 (now with the help of an amazing crew) since GW1 launched. And I have helped with GW1 testing in the past as well. So I want to make it clear where my criticism is coming from. I’m a big Guild Wars fan, but this just doesn’t sit right with me. And you seem to be buying too eagerly into marketing talks.
And again thats assuming all slots are filled which might not even be an issue for some. How many people key farm? How many people said the NPE was an issue for them? How many people dont like having alts? How many people bought more slots then they actually needed when they were on sale? (I am guilty of this for example) How many people stated the reason for not buying HoT was they were not interested in the Revenant?
So you are saying that just because there are some customers that are not interested in an extra character slot, that it is there for not a valid argument that an extra $10 should be included when looking at the price of the expansion with an extra profession?
Because if that is what you are saying, I still disagree. There are plenty of customers that WILL need it, and for them this raises the price by $10 bucks.
“Madness is just another way to view reality”
(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D-On3Ya0_4Y)
(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D-On3Ya0_4Y)
…
Making decisions based on all the currently available info leads to accurate conclusions, based on your info. Should new info come to light you re evaluate your conclusions, thats sound reasoning.
Your basically gambling on anet. Which is fine but its a gamble none the less. The only thing i think people should go by is what anet presented. Anet has told people in the past to measure them by the things they commit to, not the things one might assume, because their process and goals change as they go.
I dont think you can really discuss the possible value of the expansion based on what they may one day release.
Of course this discussion is underway with the caveat of what we currently are aware of. Thats a given. Should they announce 10 new zones and 20 new challenging battles with a 15 hour story arc, we will change our analysis. Should they commit to 30 hours of story and 2 new elite specializations within 4 months after hot release, that would also be considered.
But just believing it with no reasons? We cant really expect to judge the value of the expansion based on random gambles of what we hope may be tbe case. Thats hardly sound advice.
I disagree with your entire premise. Without adequate info, you really shouldn’t draw conclusions. It happens all the time. People think they know everything about a situation and they make decisions based on it. Then they learn something they didn’t know before and suddenly it all falls apart. That’s what intuition is all about.
Intuition takes things into account the conscious mind really can’t. But in this case, you don’t enough enough information to formulate any conclusion. That information is not present. There’s a huge difference between saying wait and see and saying there’s not enough content.
Too many people are drawing conclusions without adequate knowledge to support the conclusion. My conclusions are based on experience with the game, and also knowledge of myself. I know I’ll enjoy it, and $50 is a very small price for me to pay for my entertainment time.
But to say there’s not enough content, when we don’t know about the content is pointless. As I said earlier, you can’t compare Nightfall or EotN or anything to HoT because we have all the detail of those, but we don’t have all the detail about HoT. The best you can do is just guess.
It’s too early to tell.
I see a few people that state that we don’t have all the facts yet so any conclusion about content is wrong.
I thus propose a deal. For every single person that did a uninformed purchase of the pre-order, an other person will be allowed here to make a uninformed decision to not purchase the game at all . Both will then have done the same amount of rational thinking regarding this.
Everyone else can then wait and see what the final game will be before doing a informed decision if the asking price is fair for the amount of content that HoT has.
Not really a deal. I’m not posting on the forums saying this game is worth or it isn’t. Only that it’s worth it to me. I didn’t make a thread to compare it to a game we know everything about. Someone else did that.
You see there’s a difference between making a decision about myself, which could be based on intuition or emotion, or posting a thread that makes claims to compare two things, without knowing enough about one of them.
Now, if I made a thread saying this game was definitely worth it, I’d be wrong. The OP is wrong for comparing a game we know everything about, with a game we know quite a bit less about.
But to say there’s not enough content, when we don’t know about the content is pointless. As I said earlier, you can’t compare Nightfall or EotN or anything to HoT because we have all the detail of those, but we don’t have all the detail about HoT. The best you can do is just guess.
It’s too early to tell.
It’s the price of a full game, for something that is not a full stand alone game. I’d say there is a solid basis for criticism there.
“Madness is just another way to view reality”
(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D-On3Ya0_4Y)
(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D-On3Ya0_4Y)
How much you enjoy your work has little to do with monetary value, also weather you recieve small amounts of money with little effort doesnt mean its free money.
If your savings account earns you 40 dollars it doesnt mean it was free money.The gold you earn has a value even if you arent legally allowed to sell it. Anet capitalizes on it. Point is trading gold for items isnt free. You are spending a resource you earned which is used to generate revenue for anet.
Is someone trading shoes they make for food to eat getting free food? Should they ignore that it costs them 4 hours to make the shoes when they trade it for food?
People get confused by gold you are working for it, and youd be generally better off buying it than trying to earn it in game, effeciency wise.
10 dollars (100 gold/800gems) of in game gold is for most players a lot more work than 10 dollars of real money.
No it doesnt. If I spend 20 hrs reading a book , how much value is that? Can I trade that for anything really? Playing a game is not work, its entertainment, what you’re getting out of it is enjoyment. The gold you get isnt really money in any shape or form, its merely a token used in the game mechanics to provide you with more complexity.
Without being able to sell its essentially worthless. No bank is going to give me a loan based on all the gold I have in Gw2 no matter how many times I explain the hours that went into generating it could have generated me way more then the colleteral requested by the bank had I worked a real job instead.
Getting a free character slot usinging ingame money wouldnt be any different then getting that nice expensive skin you’re after from the trading post. In both cases you didnt “work” for it, its a reward for playing (and hopefully enjoying yourself) for X amount of hours.
Your gold has value because anet sells it, and because you can use it to buy things which have monetary value.
If i get paid to write books by say, target. Who pays me in target credits. My book reading has value. Monetary value.
Target sells my books
And i get things of monetary value in exchange.How much i enjoy writing is irrelevant to the value of my writing
You are writing as a paid job. Playing a game isn’t a job.
Anything you do that can make money has monetary value, wether you realize it or not.
Just because something is entertaining does not mean it has no monetary value.
If you realized this, and had the desire to, you probably could get money from your 5 on 5 games.
People in Fact can, and do.
Sponsorship
Make youtube videos of your games
Sell tickets
Create local tournamentsRegardless any resource you have to earn and can be spent has value. Its not “free” 10 hours of your in game earnings has a market value of 10 dollars. You can pay for it with 10 american or 100 gold tyrian doesnt change the fact you are paying.
Not excactly. Playing a 5v5 friendly game doesnt have monitary value at all even in your example. Think about… if you get a sponsor its not the game that has the monitery value but you advertising for the sponsor. Same with making youtube videos. Its not the game but rather then advertising on the videos thats making the money. selling tickets comes close but again its not the game thats being monotized but actual ticket sales. Saying that number of passes you do in a game has monitary value just because you’re getting money out of ticket sales would be wrong. Okey this sounds wierd because football and gw2 dont exactly work the same way. so lets forget football
lets say you can get people to pay for watching you playing Gw2 it would still be wrong to say ingame gold has monitary value because the money you make has no direct corrolation with how much in game gold you make.
Simply speaking, advertisment, tickets etc.. you can sell / trade so they have value, ingame gold you cant so it doesnt.
But forget all of this, if something has value that value can be quantified. For example I can state today 1 euro has the same value as 1.12 dollars.
Likewise You can also state that today 10 dollars have approxamately the same value of 91g 28s so how much in game gold would it take for me to buy 1 dollar? answer is not even all the ingame gold in the world would buy me 1 dollar. (unless I go through illegal means but thats a different story)
The problem with “objectivity” and logic is that it only works if you have all the information. Even if you knew every single thing that was in the box, it doesn’t tell you what else you’ll get for owning that box after the fact.
Vayne, we talked about this so many times. Yes without having all the numbers you do not know for sure what is going on or make predictions with 100% certainty.
However, as I told you in the discussions we have had, you can still work with the information you have, you can make use of common sense and get an idea about something with that information. Name it an educated guess.
Nearly all prediction, decisions and gathering of information is done in this way. If you look at the weather they do not have all the information, they even have a real small piece of all the information (that is why they are not extremely accurate) but do still predict the weather based on that.
It is how the world works. It might be useful in a discussion to come with this statement in a way to try and dismiss what a person is saying, but it’s not a really good argument.
Yes phys does not have all information, and he might be wrong (or might be right). You can say something about his information being wrong, or leaving information out or the logic he uses to get to a conclusion based on that information.. But don’t come with “It’s not valid because you do not have all the facts”.
And let me then add what I have to say about the subject. I hoped the price would be between $40 and $60, and not between 0,- and $40-. Because as you know I am very in favor for the B2P model, based on expansion and very much against the cash-shop model GW2 has been using.
If the price would be between 0,- and $40,- it would be a clear sign they would be sticking with the cash-shop model as that price is more fitting for games using that model. While the price-range of $40,- to $60,- (for a standard edition) would be more fitting for a B2P model that has only a small use of the cash-shop. (you always seem to refer to WoW when you say.. look all mmo’s are having a cash-shop these days.. while there is obvious a big difference between them. For a B2P game I expect a cash-shop as that of WoW max).
Back to the question if it’s worth the price. (separated from the question if I buy it, because I will and if they decide to come with a CE I will buy that). Based on what I said I think that if they start behaving more as a B2P game then yes, in fact I think that if they had behaved more as a B2P game, and they released the first expansion 1 / 1,5 after release for $50,- having had almost no focus on the cash-shop meanwhile there would not be this big outcry. By now we would then likely already have had 2 expansion (of $50,- a piece) and closing in on out 3th.
If the game will keep the focus on the cash-shop then I don’t think it should cost $50,- but should be around $35,- $40,- imho.
(edited by Devata.6589)
But to say there’s not enough content, when we don’t know about the content is pointless. As I said earlier, you can’t compare Nightfall or EotN or anything to HoT because we have all the detail of those, but we don’t have all the detail about HoT. The best you can do is just guess.
It’s too early to tell.
It’s the price of a full game, for something that is not a full stand alone game. I’d say there is a solid basis for criticism there.
I don’t know, I find it in line with most MMO expansions, which are also not the size of a full game. So I’m not sure what the basis of comparison is. Basically if you compare the amount of content in an MMO at release, and the amount of content in an expansion, you’re virtually always going to have less content. So you can say no MMO expansion is worth it ever, or you can ask why it is that way.
Because it is that way.
I may be loved by Anet’s marketing department but make no mistake I am sure you’re loved by Anet’s competitors marketing departments too.
Apart from DDO and GW2, I don’t play other MMO’s. And DDO has not earned a single penny from that so far.
I have long been a very big supporter of Arena Net. Me and my snowman companion have been organizing large scale community events in Guild Wars 1 and Guild Wars 2 (now with the help of an amazing crew) since GW1 launched. And I have helped with GW1 testing in the past as well. So I want to make it clear where my criticism is coming from. I’m a big Guild Wars fan, but this just doesn’t sit right with me. And you seem to be buying too eagerly into marketing talks.
Its not marketing talk its fact, I myself didnt need to buy an extra character slot to play revenant even if they didnt give a free slot away for pre-purchase and higher tiers above standard. I am sure I am not unique in that. I know you can buy character slots using in game money without having to turn the game into a job, I know because I did it myself and I never farm, I play to enjoy myself not as a second job.
I do know you organize events I’ve seen some advertised, not sure how that changes anything though. I didnt say other MMOs marketing teams would thank you to imply you hate the game or your opinion doesnt matter simply to illustrate the fact every coin has 2 faces. Truth is any opinion benefits someone. My position that an extra character slot isnt a mandatory purchase may benefit Anet but your position benefits other people too does that mean any argument is more or less valid?
And again thats assuming all slots are filled which might not even be an issue for some. How many people key farm? How many people said the NPE was an issue for them? How many people dont like having alts? How many people bought more slots then they actually needed when they were on sale? (I am guilty of this for example) How many people stated the reason for not buying HoT was they were not interested in the Revenant?
So you are saying that just because there are some customers that are not interested in an extra character slot, that it is there for not a valid argument that an extra $10 should be included when looking at the price of the expansion with an extra profession?
Because if that is what you are saying, I still disagree. There are plenty of customers that WILL need it, and for them this raises the price by $10 bucks.
No, my argument is that this is an optional purchase just like an armor skin is, or an extra bank slot etc.. I may like this weapon skin because it goes great with the imagine I have of this character in my mind. Now I may use gold to buy it, I may use my time and farm keys hoping for a ticket drop, I may even get out my credit card and use real money to get the gold I need but none of that implies the game costs $10 more then it does for everybody regardless of how much it would cost if i had to buy that skin with real money. Same thing with this character slot. Do some need it? Undoubtly. Does that mean the expansion costs $60 rather then $50? No. None of them have to pay $10 extra to get it unless they want to which by the very definision of the word makes it optional. Whats also equally without a doubt is that not every needs an extra character slot which makes your statement that this expansion actually costs $60 not $50 definitely incorrect.
But to say there’s not enough content, when we don’t know about the content is pointless. As I said earlier, you can’t compare Nightfall or EotN or anything to HoT because we have all the detail of those, but we don’t have all the detail about HoT. The best you can do is just guess.
It’s too early to tell.
It’s the price of a full game, for something that is not a full stand alone game. I’d say there is a solid basis for criticism there.
No expansion is the size of a full game, its unreasanble to expect it to be considering that an expansion is worked on for a fraction of the time a company works on the full game. That being said, we dont even know how big HoT is, isnt this argument a bit premature?
The problem with “objectivity” and logic is that it only works if you have all the information. Even if you knew every single thing that was in the box, it doesn’t tell you what else you’ll get for owning that box after the fact.
Vayne, we talked about this so many times. Yes without having all the numbers you do not know for sure what is going on or make predictions with 100% certainty.
However, as I told you in the discussions we have had, you can still work with the information you have, you can make use of common sense and get an idea about something with that information. Name it an educated guess.
Nearly all prediction, decisions and gathering of information is done in this way. If you look at the weather they do not have all the information, they even have a real small piece of all the information (that is why they are not extremely accurate) but do still predict the weather based on that.
It is how the world works. It might be useful in a discussion to come with this statement in a way to try and dismiss what a person is saying, but it’s not a really good argument.
This just doesnt work let me illustrate why.
So right now we dont know how much content HoT is going to have but we do know what Anet did so far.
So Person A might look at the LS and say ohh they were tiny 2 hr updates at most. Anet has a history of releasing small updates so based on what I know I have no doubt HoT will be tiny. $60 for a tiny update not worthed.
Person B looks at the LS and goes. wow an update every 2 weeks while working on an example. Thats a ton more then competing MMOs do. They generally release 3-5 updates while we wait, Anet released 40-50… This Expansion is going to be X10 larger then competing expansions.
Who’s right? probably neither but both are valid interpretations of the data thats available.
Vayne is right without the facts all we’re doing is guessing. There just isnt enough information not even for an educated guess.
The problem with “objectivity” and logic is that it only works if you have all the information. Even if you knew every single thing that was in the box, it doesn’t tell you what else you’ll get for owning that box after the fact.
Vayne, we talked about this so many times. Yes without having all the numbers you do not know for sure what is going on or make predictions with 100% certainty.
However, as I told you in the discussions we have had, you can still work with the information you have, you can make use of common sense and get an idea about something with that information. Name it an educated guess.
Nearly all prediction, decisions and gathering of information is done in this way. If you look at the weather they do not have all the information, they even have a real small piece of all the information (that is why they are not extremely accurate) but do still predict the weather based on that.
It is how the world works. It might be useful in a discussion to come with this statement in a way to try and dismiss what a person is saying, but it’s not a really good argument.
This just doesnt work let me illustrate why.
So right now we dont know how much content HoT is going to have but we do know what Anet did so far.
So Person A might look at the LS and say ohh they were tiny 2 hr updates at most. Anet has a history of releasing small updates so based on what I know I have no doubt HoT will be tiny. $60 for a tiny update not worthed.
Person B looks at the LS and goes. wow an update every 2 weeks while working on an example. Thats a ton more then competing MMOs do. They generally release 3-5 updates while we wait, Anet released 40-50… This Expansion is going to be X10 larger then competing expansions.
Who’s right? probably neither but both are valid interpretations of the data thats available.
Vayne is right without the facts all we’re doing is guessing. There just isnt enough information not even for an educated guess.
Sure, but you can still look at what the market does.
The problem with “objectivity” and logic is that it only works if you have all the information. Even if you knew every single thing that was in the box, it doesn’t tell you what else you’ll get for owning that box after the fact.
Vayne, we talked about this so many times. Yes without having all the numbers you do not know for sure what is going on or make predictions with 100% certainty.
However, as I told you in the discussions we have had, you can still work with the information you have, you can make use of common sense and get an idea about something with that information. Name it an educated guess.
Nearly all prediction, decisions and gathering of information is done in this way. If you look at the weather they do not have all the information, they even have a real small piece of all the information (that is why they are not extremely accurate) but do still predict the weather based on that.
It is how the world works. It might be useful in a discussion to come with this statement in a way to try and dismiss what a person is saying, but it’s not a really good argument.
This just doesnt work let me illustrate why.
So right now we dont know how much content HoT is going to have but we do know what Anet did so far.
So Person A might look at the LS and say ohh they were tiny 2 hr updates at most. Anet has a history of releasing small updates so based on what I know I have no doubt HoT will be tiny. $60 for a tiny update not worthed.
Person B looks at the LS and goes. wow an update every 2 weeks while working on an example. Thats a ton more then competing MMOs do. They generally release 3-5 updates while we wait, Anet released 40-50… This Expansion is going to be X10 larger then competing expansions.
Who’s right? probably neither but both are valid interpretations of the data thats available.
Vayne is right without the facts all we’re doing is guessing. There just isnt enough information not even for an educated guess.
Sure, but you can still look at what the market does.
Investing in the market without current, valid and complete information is likely to lead to disaster.
I’m not sure what you’re arguing here? Are you suggesting we do have enough info for a valid comparison?
You know, I’m reading through this argument, and I’ll give both sides credit in that they both have valid points. However, valid or not, what this argument boils down to is: do you, as an individual, feel HoT is worth what they are asking for it.
Some of you will shout yes, some of you will shout no, others will waver with a maybe. If you’re one of those that isn’t sure, then wait for more information and make a decision. If you’re one of those that absolutely feels it’s overpriced, then just don’t buy it. It is really just that simple. Either wait for it to go on sale for what you feel is an ‘acceptable’ price (and it will eventually) or move on.
Yes, some of you are going to shout at me “But I bought this game…” and “I deserve…” and “I’m the customer…” blah blah. We all bought this game, not just you. We’ve all played what we purchased. If you want to play the “new shiny” then you’ll have to do the same thing the rest of us are doing, buying it.
It’s really not any different than any other form of entertainment. It’s a bit of gamble (with any game, or movie really), sometimes you like it, sometimes it’s a bust and you decide further purchases aren’t worthwhile. And it’s all well and good to voice your opinion that you don’t think it’s worth the value; however, now we’re going just a bit overboard with the rage.
Now, all that said, on to the real question at hand…. When the hell did we decide Varesh was a “big boss fight”? Gate of Madness, with Shiro and Lich, was so much better (and more difficult) than Ruins of Morah.
Don’t look at me like that. Whatever you’ve heard, it’s probably not true.
No expansion is the size of a full game, its unreasonable to expect it to be considering that an expansion is worked on for a fraction of the time a company works on the full game. That being said, we dont even know how big HoT is, isnt this argument a bit premature?
We know that it won’t be the size of a full game, because it is an expansion. And as you said, no expansion is the size of a full game.
But it is priced as a full game. This makes the price unreasonable, regardless of what future content they reveal in HOT. It’s not going to be more than a full game, and yet it is priced as one. On that basis alone, we can say it is too expensive.
“Madness is just another way to view reality”
(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D-On3Ya0_4Y)
(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D-On3Ya0_4Y)
imo the price really isn’t so bad, it’s the direction everything is going that makes the price questionable and compounding the issue.
i wouldn’t mind paying an average price for a game that i want, but are you doing what i want ? – anet are proven game developers, but that doesn’t mean they are taking things the direction we want and that’s why inspecting the package is such a big deal. no body wants to pay for something they don’t want. It doesn’t mean you didn’t do a lot.
IBM PC XT 4.77mhz w/turbo oc@ 8mhz 640kb windows 3.1 hayes 56k seagate 20 meg HD mda@720x350 pixels
(edited by Ricky.4706)
“We know that it won’t be the size of a full game, because it is an expansion. And as you said, no expansion is the size of a full game.
But it is priced as a full game. This makes the price unreasonable, regardless of what future content they reveal in HOT. It’s not going to be more than a full game, and yet it is priced as one. On that basis alone, we can say it is too expensive."
This is going to be up to each person. You can say it’s too expensive, or that you aren’t getting your value. But your value verse someone else’s is objective.
There are lots of MMOs that sell their expansions for the same price or near same price as the original game. You might not like this practice, many people don’t. But you do have an option. You can not buy it.
The size of the land mass does not mean that HoT won’t stack up content wise to the original game. For a good deal of things all we have is speculation. If there is not enough info then you should wait.
Mad Queen, just a heads-up: The price of the expansion at USD $49.99 includes a character slot now. In no sense of the matter does the game de facto cost $60 anymore. It used to, but since they included the character slot, it now actually only costs the 50 dollars.
Just letting you know you can’t toss around $60 and be correct anymore.
There are lots of MMOs that sell their expansions for the same price or near same price as the original game. You might not like this practice, many people don’t. But you do have an option. You can not buy it.
“Everyone else is doing it”, is not a valid excuse.
The size of the land mass does not mean that HoT won’t stack up content wise to the original game. For a good deal of things all we have is speculation. If there is not enough info then you should wait.
What are you talking about? The expansion is not going to be nearly as much content as a full game. It’s barely a full expansion. It’s a small expansion.
Mad Queen, just a heads-up: The price of the expansion at USD $49.99 includes a character slot now. In no sense of the matter does the game de facto cost $60 anymore. It used to, but since they included the character slot, it now actually only costs the 50 dollars.
Just letting you know you can’t toss around $60 and be correct anymore.
Do people who register after launch also get this free extra character slot?
“Madness is just another way to view reality”
(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D-On3Ya0_4Y)
(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D-On3Ya0_4Y)
“Everyone else is doing it”, is not a valid excuse.
True, industry standard may in fact be bad practice (like offering pre-purchase or pre-ordering), but it likely means it shouldn’t be expected to be different. It’s not really an excuse, just that Anet/NC Soft wouldn’t be standing out in this case.
What are you talking about? The expansion is not going to be nearly as much content as a full game. It’s barely a full expansion. It’s a small expansion.
You do not know this. Nobody knows this yet. From what we’ve seen so far, yes, but then again, we haven’t seen everything so far. There’s also going to be more than this one map. How many more? These details have yet to be revealed.
Mad Queen, just a heads-up: The price of the expansion at USD $49.99 includes a character slot now. In no sense of the matter does the game de facto cost $60 anymore. It used to, but since they included the character slot, it now actually only costs the 50 dollars.
Just letting you know you can’t toss around $60 and be correct anymore.
Do people who register after launch also get this free extra character slot?
No, they do not, but the full content reveal of the expansion will occur prior to the launch date. If at that time you like what you see, and you buy the expansion, then you still get the character slot. It’s not like this is a new release of a game; we already know how it plays, we know the graphics/artwork, etc. What we don’t have is content. When they reveal that is when this will hold more ground.
Also, who knows? They may have a sale later on, a couple of months after launch, where you could pick up the expansion for less or with the added character slot. They have not revealed this yet either.
50 dollars is only for expansion without character slot, a pre-purchase “bonus” doesn’t count as it is not included in the package per se, therefore it makes sense to say that it is 60 bucks.
Regardless there has been many shady issues, among others the different value of the 60/100 dollar versions on the international market, which by the way, cannot be explained by the taxation.
Furthermore it is being sold as a digital product at this moment, which means it cost Anet nothing to distribute or produce.
And there is plenty of reason to call this out as being overpriced. People keep returning to the “if you get x hours of fun out of it, it is worth it” or “I can afford it”
Well that’s great, however the price is still overpriced, and if everyone jumps into that boat it will legitimize the company to sell the next base expansion for 5-10 dollars more.
And it was never a question of being able to have x amount of hours of fun. The fact is it is easily 5-10 dollars too much. It is a principle of making it clear “this is too pricey, we know it, we think it is too bad” I don’t think anyone is expecting the price to change, or Anet gluing the char slot to the expansion instead of the pre-purchase.
The issue is, that if people don’t make a case out of these kinds of practices, it will only get worse going forward. We can all afford it, but we can also see that the price is off.
The same way that I can see that the price is off if my eggs or milk has risen exponentially even though the farmer hasn’t changed his prices. or a white t-shirt at a clothing store that normally cost between 10-15 across a wide variety of stores, and all of a sudden cost 25 at one, the quality isn’t necessarily better than those 10 other stores.
““Everyone else is doing it”, is not a valid excuse.”
I never said it was an excuse. This is what I expect as a player of AAA MMOs. I am not even saying I love it as a price point.
“What are you talking about? The expansion is not going to be nearly as much content as a full game. It’s barely a full expansion. It’s a small expansion.”
I have worded myself poorly. It’s not about quantity of content it’s about the quality. I believe that it will be of greater quality than the core game. The redesign of the AI alone has me excited. Too many players define the value of content and or the expansion on how much land mass there is. Just my opinion.
“Do people who register after launch also get this free extra character slot?”
Doubtful. It’s a bonus to vets for pre purchasing. I am ok with this. It’s rewarding those players who buy early. If you want to buy after the release then by all means, but you aren’t being rewarded for doing so.
ouch, the word “rewarded” has a funny ting…in your post. Less people will play and go to other games for such ‘rewards’ for spending money.
I would think the idea is to find a common ground that the company and gamer can live with.
Otherwise I won’t "reward’ you with my presence.
no slave thinking for me thanks. say no to orwellian gaming!
IBM PC XT 4.77mhz w/turbo oc@ 8mhz 640kb windows 3.1 hayes 56k seagate 20 meg HD mda@720x350 pixels
50 dollars is only for expansion without character slot, a pre-purchase “bonus” doesn’t count as it is not included in the package per se, therefore it makes sense to say that it is 60 bucks.
Regardless there has been many shady issues, among others the different value of the 60/100 dollar versions on the international market, which by the way, cannot be explained by the taxation.
Furthermore it is being sold as a digital product at this moment, which means it cost Anet nothing to distribute or produce.And there is plenty of reason to call this out as being overpriced. People keep returning to the “if you get x hours of fun out of it, it is worth it” or “I can afford it”
Well that’s great, however the price is still overpriced, and if everyone jumps into that boat it will legitimize the company to sell the next base expansion for 5-10 dollars more.
And it was never a question of being able to have x amount of hours of fun. The fact is it is easily 5-10 dollars too much. It is a principle of making it clear “this is too pricey, we know it, we think it is too bad” I don’t think anyone is expecting the price to change, or Anet gluing the char slot to the expansion instead of the pre-purchase.The issue is, that if people don’t make a case out of these kinds of practices, it will only get worse going forward. We can all afford it, but we can also see that the price is off.
The same way that I can see that the price is off if my eggs or milk has risen exponentially even though the farmer hasn’t changed his prices. or a white t-shirt at a clothing store that normally cost between 10-15 across a wide variety of stores, and all of a sudden cost 25 at one, the quality isn’t necessarily better than those 10 other stores.
Let’s say that Anet had instead of having Revenant be part of the expansion that they had instead released it with last week’s large update. We also go under the assumption that it was always going to be a part of that update. Would you have any issues then even if you didn’t have any character slots? What if they instead were not doing an expansion but continuing on with the living story and provided the class as part of that?
(edited by Ayrilana.1396)