Guild Wars 2

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

Yes. It should not be factored into the price. I pay for what I get now, not for what I maybe get later.

So the value of Guild Wars 2 is only the value of the box. Fractals don’t add to the value. They weren’t there at launch. Guild missions don’t add to the value. Three new zones don’t add to the value.

You’re not buying a racing game, you’re buying an MMO and that’s substantially different. With an MMO, even according to the license, you’re not really paying for a game, you’re paying for access. Access which can be terminated at any time. It’s like buying an annual pass to a theme park, in a way. If they add new rides, the value of what you’ve bought goes up.

I know I wouldn’t buy an MMO that only contained what was in the box and nothing else, and I don’t think most people would either.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

Yes. It should not be factored into the price. I pay for what I get now, not for what I maybe get later.

I guess when people are paying subs for their mmorpg they only pay it for what they already got in the game and any future content is free

Vayne.8563:

So the value of Guild Wars 2 is only the value of the box. Fractals don’t add to the value. They weren’t there at launch. Guild missions don’t add to the value. Three new zones don’t add to the value.

They didn’t add value when I bought GW2, because they didn’t exist. I bought GW2 because of what it contained.

It is the same for HOT.

Galen Grey.4709:

There are many ways how to look at it. You can look at the price of the expansion itself and say okey Anet is charging $50 for their expansion. Only other company to do that was WoW so yeah pretty overprised.

Fair enough

There are other aspects to it though. Its a bit to early to tell but it may very well be it takes Anet 2-3 years to push out an expansion. $50 ever 2 to years 3 for gw2 is very reasonable. Not overprised in fact quite cheap for Example one other Buy to play game has DLC releases for $10 each. Super cheap right ? In 3 years it released 11 of them for a total of $110 + other smaller paid content. That alone makes it twice as expensive but when you factor in Gw2 also threw a ton of free content while this other game didnt the value you’re getting with Gw2 is much higher.

I dont think we need to even elaborate on sub based MMOs, $50 is what you pay to play 4 months and they still charge you $40. Never mind the other 32 months you have to pay for during that 3 year period.

Then there are F2P games. You generally get expansions for free here or for just $39.99 but then again you get more agressive cashshops. Cashshops that range from taking away gameplay mechanics unless you pay or that make it impossible to compete in PvP (upgrade insurance items), Severly limiting inventory etc.. Its hard to say how much it will cost to play such a game for 3 years. Could be cheaper, could be not.

Thing is this isnt a white brand t-shirt, its a quality fashion shirt that sells for $50 and you can keep wearing it proudly for 2-3 years. The company is also nice enough to supply you with free accessories now and then too. There are other options some cheaper as low as $10 but these require changing every 3 months or so. Other t-shirts sell for $40 but require you pay $15 a month while you ‘re wearing them. Then there are free T-Shirts that have these little frustrating things such as coming in a size too small, or this little label in the back that keeps poking you while you’re walking around.
There is a solution to all these problems and it involves a small fee.

Now you can stop and just consider the price and conclude this is the most expensive shirt there is. Or you could look at the big picture and realise that everything considered the value you’re getting over time is actually better then some cheaper options.

It makes as much sense to compare the expansion to a WoW expansion as it does to compare it to f2p game expansions. Some of which have been quite impressive, all for free, many games provide free content, dlc whatnot. Hell Take L2, which has made fairly big expansions and update for no charge at all. Just because one game made an overprice expansion, and another does too, doesn’t mean that it’s okay
(=)_(=)
I’m certainly not expecting it for free, because that is has never been A-nets business model. However justifying the price because WoW or other games have a p2p model doesn’t make sense, as that is unrelated to the expansion in question.

There is no information released so far that justifies 50$. The argument, that I can use it for however long, is also fairly invalid, because by that logic the game should costs 1000$ or 2000$. An argument like that is never ending no matter the price.

And as far as the production costs for 1 map in gw2 comparable to a map in gw being more, possibly. But that argument lacks the information that gw2 runs on a-nets own engine, and technology have progressed ! therefore anything is cheaper to produce today, not to mention gw maps are hubs included as those were interchangeable. Either way that argument isn’t that simple either.

Looking at the discussion in this thread it is quite clear that no one convinces anyone. So last comment here for me

usernameisapain.7163:

There is no information released so far that justifies 50$.

Yes but HoT is a long way from release so the argument goes both ways. Since we don’t have enough information yet, why complain about the price? Why make a comporison between a released game and an unreleased one that we are missing a lot of details about? Wait until everything is revealed and then we can all complain together, or just enjoy HoT, what’s the point in making this comparison now? It’s not like the pre-purchase will last only 1 week or anything.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

Vayne.8563:

So the value of Guild Wars 2 is only the value of the box. Fractals don’t add to the value. They weren’t there at launch. Guild missions don’t add to the value. Three new zones don’t add to the value.

They didn’t add value when I bought GW2, because they didn’t exist. I bought GW2 because of what it contained.

It is the same for HOT.

May I ask how many actual MMOs you’ve played before you purchased Guild Wars 2? Just because you personally bought something for the box and didn’t think of anything else, doesn’t mean the value of the MMO isn’t dependent on what comes next.

Most MMOs get better over time. You buy the box, but you expect a lot of trouble in the early going. For example, a huge number of dynamic events didn’t work at all in the early days. People found ways to knock skill point NPCs out of bounds so you couldn’t get those skill points and we all had to wait around like vultures at reset. There wasn’t even an item preview in the auction house at launch. Guesting wasn’t in place yet.

As time goes on, MMOs evolve and change, which is why people tend to play them. To be a part of that evolution Not just to play a boxed game. Because I assure you MMOs tend to be inferior to boxed games in most particulars. They can’t have graphics as good, because lag with too many people. They tend not to have the best stories, because no one person can be the hero. They tend to have balancing issues you never really question in a single player game. But they evolve. They change. They grow. And some of us feel a part of that. It’s a badge of honor to remember some stuff.

I’m relatively certain, no matter what reason you may have personally bought Guild Wars 2, that if Anet had said straight up, you’re getting only what’s in the box and that’s it, most people would not have bought it, or at least would have had second thoughts about buying it.

It’s okay for you to buy it for whatever reason you buy it or don’t, but make no mistake about it. MMOs are not boxed games and thinking about them as boxed games is a mistake.

Vayne.8563:

May I ask how many actual MMOs you’ve played before you purchased Guild Wars 2?

-GW1 for years
-DDO, still do
-Age of Bonan, for mere minutes, till I realized what an awful boring piece of consumer exploitation it was. Incompetently designed, boring and cliche.

Vayne.8563:

I’m relatively certain, no matter what reason you may have personally bought Guild Wars 2, that if Anet had said straight up, you’re getting only what’s in the box and that’s it, most people would not have bought it, or at least would have had second thoughts about buying it.

To clarify, I bought GW2 because of what it would contain, plus Anet advertized that they would keep supporting the game, adding more things to it eventually. They didn’t say what, and I didn’t pay for those things either. I paid for the core game, while knowing that there may eventually be new things added.

So when/if I buy HOT, I do not pay for future content. I pay for the expansion, and may or may not feel encouraged to buy it if they also say they’ll keep adding things. But I’m not paying for that future content, because it doesn’t exist yet.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

Vayne.8563:

May I ask how many actual MMOs you’ve played before you purchased Guild Wars 2?

-GW1 for years
-DDO, still do
-Age of Bonan, for mere minutes, till I realized what an awful boring piece of consumer exploitation it was. Incompetently designed, boring and cliche.

Vayne.8563:

I’m relatively certain, no matter what reason you may have personally bought Guild Wars 2, that if Anet had said straight up, you’re getting only what’s in the box and that’s it, most people would not have bought it, or at least would have had second thoughts about buying it.

To clarify, I bought GW2 because of what it would contain, plus Anet advertized that they would keep supporting the game, adding more things to it eventually. They didn’t say what, and I didn’t pay for those things either. I paid for the core game, while knowing that there may eventually be new things added.

So when/if I buy HOT, I do not pay for future content. I pay for the expansion, and may or may not feel encouraged to buy it if they also say they’ll keep adding things. But I’m not paying for that future content, because it doesn’t exist yet.

Okay. That’s fine.

I wouldn’t buy HoT if I didn’t think it was going to get more content besides that’s in the box. I mean I wouldn’t buy it at all.

I have the belief, due to long experience with Anet, that the game will entertain me for a period of time that is well worth $50. I don’t care if it’s in the box at launch or it gets added after.

Because to me, being there at the beginning means something. Being at the beginning of anything. I always regretted that I found Guild Wars 1 late, and wasn’t there at the beginning.

You don’t have to pay if you don’t feel what’s in the box is worth it. What you miss is being there. To some of us, MMOs aren’t a game, they’re an experience. That’s how I play them.

Wait… so that post HoT additions should not be taken into consideration but at the same time the OP includes post Nightfall additions in the comparison?

and this is what makes it evident, that this isn’t a price issue, it’s a trust issue.
maybe trust is lacking from new players, because they don’t know anet, and trust is being lost from vet players because they know anet ? lol – or rather, are familiar with the update pattern they’ve used in the past.

lordkrall.7241:

Wait… so that post HoT additions should not be taken into consideration but at the same time the OP includes post Nightfall additions in the comparison?

The only post addition from Nightfall that I took into account, was Domain of Anguish. Because it was released almost immediately after the release of Nightfall.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

The only post addition from Nightfall that I took into account, was Domain of Anguish. Because it was released almost immediately after the release of Nightfall.

Nightfall was released on October 27.

DoA was released on December 1.

That is not really “almost immediately after”. It is basically as long after as two Living Story episodes if they go back to the 2 week release schedule.

But sure, lets set the 1 month limit on post HoT releases as well, and then we can compare.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

Erukk.1408:

So, I’m guessing we’re writing off all the additional content they are going to add to HoT over time via LS for the comparison?

The Living Story is meant to be free. We are not supposed to be paying for that.

It is free but that doesnt mean it doesnt need to be financed. At the end of the day this is an MMO which by its nature has on going costs. That costs is covered by both box sales and gem sales. If its not covered and considering there are investors in the mix, being covered means the investors are making enough money to be happy financing a team that you dont traditionally find in other MMOs.

The Thing is what we have here is a balance between cost and features. On that premise I would definitely include the living story in the price of the expansion because at the end of the day even if the expansion is as big as the core game (and i dont think it is by any stretch of the imagination) it will not have enough content to keep me busy another 2 – 3 years. Throwing the Living story in the mix then yeah most certainly.

So If I had to choose between paying 40 for an expansion and no living story or 50 for an expansion and living story that for me wouldnt be a choice at all. 10 is more then justified. Now as you said the LS isnt being directly financed by the Expansion so maybe it will sell well enough for NCSoft ot be happy and keep it going even if the expansion sells for 40. $10 isnt a big deal enough to justify that risk in my opinion.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

Vayne.8563:

So the value of Guild Wars 2 is only the value of the box. Fractals don’t add to the value. They weren’t there at launch. Guild missions don’t add to the value. Three new zones don’t add to the value.

They didn’t add value when I bought GW2, because they didn’t exist. I bought GW2 because of what it contained.

It is the same for HOT.

But they did and did so directly. Gw2 would have been a lot less enjoyable for me had there been no updates beyond what was in the box. You didnt know about it, you didnt factor them in their decision because like you said it didnt exist but that doesnt mean it didnt make your purchase more valuable.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

lordkrall.7241:

Wait… so that post HoT additions should not be taken into consideration but at the same time the OP includes post Nightfall additions in the comparison?

The only post addition from Nightfall that I took into account, was Domain of Anguish. Because it was released almost immediately after the release of Nightfall.

And that would make the Fractals part of Guild Wars 2, because that was released only 2 months after the game launched, right?

That’s the point. You don’t know what you’re getting. You included something 2 months after launch, and yet you’re comparing it to a game and we don’t even know what is in at launch yet. Don’t you think that’s a bit disingenuous?

usernameisapain.7163:

It makes as much sense to compare the expansion to a WoW expansion as it does to compare it to f2p game expansions. Some of which have been quite impressive, all for free, many games provide free content, dlc whatnot. Hell Take L2, which has made fairly big expansions and update for no charge at all. Just because one game made an overprice expansion, and another does too, doesn’t mean that it’s okay
(=)_(=)
I’m certainly not expecting it for free, because that is has never been A-nets business model. However justifying the price because WoW or other games have a p2p model doesn’t make sense, as that is unrelated to the expansion in question.

There is no information released so far that justifies 50$. The argument, that I can use it for however long, is also fairly invalid, because by that logic the game should costs 1000$ or 2000$. An argument like that is never ending no matter the price.

And as far as the production costs for 1 map in gw2 comparable to a map in gw being more, possibly. But that argument lacks the information that gw2 runs on a-nets own engine, and technology have progressed ! therefore anything is cheaper to produce today, not to mention gw maps are hubs included as those were interchangeable. Either way that argument isn’t that simple either.

Looking at the discussion in this thread it is quite clear that no one convinces anyone. So last comment here for me

You’re missing the point, its not about comparing expansions to each other, its about comparing the costs of playing the game. Yes plenty of F2P MMOs give out expansions for free but like Gw2 those games need to make money so they use other methods to make sure people pay and they do that by providing agressive cash shops. The point I was making is that looking at the expansion alone isnt enough. You need to factor other costs especially costs that arent really that optional and see how much you need to pay per year to enjoy the game.

Like I said, I never justified the price because WoW sold the expansion for the same price. I justified the price because $50 every 2 – 3 years means $17-$25 a year which at least to me seems more then reasonable.

I do agree with there not being enough information to justify $50 though. We simply dont know enough, no contest there.

That Gw2 uses the same Gw1 engine and is thus cheaper is wrong. Anet didnt pay for the guild wars engine, they developed it themselves hence the costs associated with production have always been labor costs. Anet at the time of Gw1 had 1/2 the employees it had at the time of Gw2 at launch and a 1/3 of the employees it has now. Ergo their costs were twice as much at launch and are 3 times as much now. Thats assuming no wage increases since the time of Gw1 which obviously isnt the case either so actually their costs are even higher then that.

Ricky.4706:

and this is what makes it evident, that this isn’t a price issue, it’s a trust issue.
maybe trust is lacking from new players, because they don’t know anet, and trust is being lost from vet players because they know anet ? lol – or rather, are familiar with the update pattern they’ve used in the past.

Which is ironic cause they released about 42 updates while we waited for the expansion. Does that put them on top of the industry?

not if no one knows about it or recognizes it.

value is subjective and based on perception. they could do 8million updates, but if they call it gw2.0 …it’s considered an old software …..despite the fact that it’s highly maintained software with an ‘old’ name.

fiat money doesn’t exist, but people kill for a piece of paper that they value called cash. but it’s really just paper.

like whats the difference between something old, and a collectors antique ….perception…nothing else.

Ricky.4706:

not if no one knows about it or recognizes it.

value is subjective and based on perception. they could do 8million updates, but if they call it gw2.0 …it’s considered an old software …..despite the fact that it’s highly maintained software with an ‘old’ name.

fiat money doesn’t exist, but people kill for a piece of paper that they value called cash. but it’s really just paper.

like whats the difference between something old, and a collectors antique ….perception…nothing else.

And thats excatly the core issue here.

Taken individually LS updates seem small, taking them as a whole they’re quite large. Taking them as filler content in between expansions they’re actually gurguantian but alas first impressions is what usually people recall.

I agree with you the biggest Issue Anet have to fight is perception.

lordkrall.7241:

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

The only post addition from Nightfall that I took into account, was Domain of Anguish. Because it was released almost immediately after the release of Nightfall.

Nightfall was released on October 27.

DoA was released on December 1.

That is not really “almost immediately after”. It is basically as long after as two Living Story episodes if they go back to the 2 week release schedule.

But sure, lets set the 1 month limit on post HoT releases as well, and then we can compare.

A month and four days. That means DoA was in production some time before NF launched. ANet did not produce any LS episodes in two weeks, it took them 6 or more weeks. They were able to do limited stretches of 2 week ships because they used a staggered team schedule.

Many games introduce content shortly after release. It’s almost always stuff that was excluded at launch because it wasn’t quite ready. What you should be arguing is that NF was eight plus years ago, and that almost none of the economic factors are the same now as they were then.

^ Oh, I know. I am just pointing out that if we consider DoA as a part of NF, we should also consider anything that is released one month after the release of HoT as a direct part of HoT as well.

Well, it seems like we’re not the only ones comparing an expansion’s worth. It happens in other mmos too. Comparisons to previous expansions and content is valid, no matter how many people deny it.

nexxe.7081:

Well, it seems like we’re not the only ones comparing an expansion’s worth. It happens in other mmos too. Comparisons to previous expansions and content is valid, no matter how many people deny it.

Just because others are doing it doesn’t mean it’s correct. Please give an argument why previous expansions/content are valid.

nexxe.7081:

Well, it seems like we’re not the only ones comparing an expansion’s worth. It happens in other mmos too. Comparisons to previous expansions and content is valid, no matter how many people deny it.

Comparing MMO expansions to single player games is acceptable, because someone on the WoW forum did it? lol

You know I think HoT isn’t worth it because it costs more than my dinner last night. I mean I got Steak and potatos and vegetables and a drink AND dessert.

nexxe.7081:

Well, it seems like we’re not the only ones comparing an expansion’s worth. It happens in other mmos too. Comparisons to previous expansions and content is valid, no matter how many people deny it.

Th most interesting post on that forum was, “Current industry standards aren’t nearly as good as they used to be.” This certainly seems to be true. Of course, industry costs have also increased, as has the market standard for prices.

The Living Story was bad, face it.

An update every 2 weeks which most did within a couple of hours. Any more time spent on it was to get the APs.

I would not pay for more of that!

Orochimaru.4730:

The Living Story was bad, face it.

An update every 2 weeks which most did within a couple of hours. Any more time spent on it was to get the APs.

I would not pay for more of that!

I don’t know. Some of the stuff from the Living Story was pretty cool, particularly Season 1, but of course, both Dry Top and the Silverwastes came with season 2 and some people seemed to like them.

Orochimaru.4730:

The Living Story was bad, face it.

An update every 2 weeks which most did within a couple of hours. Any more time spent on it was to get the APs.

I would not pay for more of that!

It wasn’t an update every 2 weeks and not all of them took 2 hours to complete, but let’s assume indeed there was 1 update per 2 weeks and each one took 2 hours to complete. This means 26 updates a year, which means 52 hours of content (not for APs) a year.

I can’t remember a single MMO expansion that took more than 52 hours to finish! Again, excluding APs/farming. That’s actually pretty good.

Vayne.8563:

I don’t know. Some of the stuff from the Living Story was pretty cool, particularly Season 1, but of course, both Dry Top and the Silverwastes came with season 2 and some people seemed to like them.

I liked some of it as well. Especially The Molten Facility and the Twisted Marionette. Other living story chapters sometimes felt a bit rough around the edges. But overall, there were some really cool updates and neat ideas.

maddoctor.2738:

Orochimaru.4730:

The Living Story was bad, face it.

An update every 2 weeks which most did within a couple of hours. Any more time spent on it was to get the APs.

I would not pay for more of that!

It wasn’t an update every 2 weeks and not all of them took 2 hours to complete, but let’s assume indeed there was 1 update per 2 weeks and each one took 2 hours to complete. This means 26 updates a year, which means 52 hours of content (not for APs) a year.

I can’t remember a single MMO expansion that took more than 52 hours to finish! Again, excluding APs/farming. That’s actually pretty good.

and thats on top of an expansion being developed. I definitely cant recall any MMO that released that much content in between expansions

must not play many mmo’s.

Nightfall collectors was $59.99 not 50 or under. Guild wars: factions collectors went for $69.99 and you got less than nightfall. Eye of the north being the only expansion for gw1 went for $39.99

When i saw the comparison, my first thought was why? Why compare NF CE with HoT? They’re COMPLETELY different.

Now if it were Guild Wars EoTN (Eye of the North) & HoT i’d understand.

Just sayin.