Guild Wars 2

With raid boss requiring 2 tanks to keep him occupied, does it mean that the meta is confirmed to change? That tanks will come to GW2? Colin said (again) that they want you to change role with any class and modify your traits according to what the raid needs and he also said that 2 players will constantly need to cc the boss and survive.

Add the daredevil cc and high evasion to the picture.

where is it stated you*need* 2 or any tanks at all?

I’m pretty sure he said you need 2 players keeping cc on the boss while the others glide away. Am I wrong?
However with similar gimmicks coming into place I can definitely see a change in the full zerker meta.

you don’t need toughness to CC you can do that in “full zerker” or glass, or whatever stat combo you want unless I missed something with CC becoming stat reliant.

Besides, it’s not like CC in this game does anything but drain break bars..

While I disagree with the OP that traditional ‘tanking’ probably wont become a thing with raids, I do agree that this will probably lead to a shift in build diversity for different roles necessary. Instead of just every stack in a corner and dps.

i can see heavy use of CC to break the defiant bars, but this can be done with all stat set ups.

to remove zerker, the best way they have to do the follwing

-high thoughness on around half of the bosses so physical damage is not as good as condition damage on them

-alot of sustained damage incoming, needing a lot more healing and toughness, vitality,healing power to stay alive

- special triggers from some bosses if they got too much damage in a too short of a time, causing a wipe

-perma retaliation on some bosses (go kill youserlf zerks!)

How do you call something that does cc to not take damage?
How do you call something that does cc to drain break bars and doesn’t take lethal damage meanwhile?

I call both forms of tanking.

I call it control or support.

as a tank you take the hits and survive thanks to high health/armor/evasion, and steady healing in coming

Kidel.2057:

How do you call something that does cc to not take damage?
How do you call something that does cc to drain break bars and doesn’t take lethal damage meanwhile?

I call both forms of tanking.

And that’s just your definition.

Mine says that a tank is someone that forces enemies to attack them instead of their teammates, so said mates can focus on dps.

And I dont see that happening.

Kormeg.2469:

Kidel.2057:

How do you call something that does cc to not take damage?
How do you call something that does cc to drain break bars and doesn’t take lethal damage meanwhile?

I call both forms of tanking.

And that’s just your definition.

Mine says that a tank is someone that forces enemies to attack them instead of their teammates, so said mates can focus on dps.

And I dont see that happening.

Guild Wars 2 doesnt have a normal hate system, except AI reactions to different threat levels and types. (see last gdc for more info about this)

However if all the other players are forced to leave the platform and you’re the only one that can face the boss, then here you have your tank definition.

Enrif.7359:

I call it control or support.

as a tank you take the hits and survive thanks to high health/armor/evasion, and steady healing in coming

I agree. That’s why the “only 2 players remaining” is important. You probably need a tank build to survive.

Kidel.2057:

With raid boss requiring 2 tanks to keep him occupied, does it mean that the meta is confirmed to change? That tanks will come to GW2? Colin said (again) that they want you to change role with any class and modify your traits according to what the raid needs and he also said that 2 players will constantly need to cc the boss and survive.

Add the daredevil cc and high evasion to the picture.

If I recall they were talking about protection / boon / tanky builds and weakness / chill / condi builds as the optimal support.

This is a very welcome change, hope it works as intended.

Kidel.2057:

I’m pretty sure he said you need 2 players keeping cc on the boss while the others glide away. Am I wrong?
However with similar gimmicks coming into place I can definitely see a change in the full zerker meta.

So I can’t cc as full zerker now? My hammer CCs on warrior require me to wear PVT armor?

Harper.4173:

Kidel.2057:

I’m pretty sure he said you need 2 players keeping cc on the boss while the others glide away. Am I wrong?
However with similar gimmicks coming into place I can definitely see a change in the full zerker meta.

So I can’t cc as full zerker now? My hammer CCs on warrior require me to wear PVT armor?

Not necessarily, you can still do it, but someone else will have to keep you up and provide prot, regen, stability, group cleansing, aegis, etc. as it was stated earlier in today’s feed on twitch.

Personally, if I am in a group where someone is consistantly unwilling to pull their weight, I boot them or leave for a better group. So, yea, it might be required. Up to you and your team comp.

Tongku.5326:

Harper.4173:

Kidel.2057:

I’m pretty sure he said you need 2 players keeping cc on the boss while the others glide away. Am I wrong?
However with similar gimmicks coming into place I can definitely see a change in the full zerker meta.

So I can’t cc as full zerker now? My hammer CCs on warrior require me to wear PVT armor?

Not necessarily, you can still do it, but someone else will have to keep you up and provide prot, regen, stability, group cleansing, aegis, etc. as it was stated earlier in today’s feed on twitch.

All that can be done with any gear.

Kidel.2057:

However if all the other players are forced to leave the platform and you’re the only one that can face the boss, then here you have your tank definition.
.

What does this even mean? Where are you getting this from?

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Invulnerability#Profession_skills

If people can solo scale 50 fractals in full zerker/sinister gear, I doubt raids will cause the zerker meta to change.

Quarktastic.1027:

If people can solo scale 50 fractals in full zerker/sinister gear, I doubt raids will cause the zerker meta to change.

Very few people can do it, in very specific fractals and with very specific builds. Also taking ages.

I have never been in a raid that doesn’t obey the trinity, this is going to be my first :O

Coldtart.4785:

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Invulnerability#Profession_skills

You also need to cc. No dodge (except DD), no invuln

or you kite the boss, dodge roll, CC.

Kidel.2057:

Quarktastic.1027:

If people can solo scale 50 fractals in full zerker/sinister gear, I doubt raids will cause the zerker meta to change.

Very few people can do it, in very specific fractals and with very specific builds. Also taking ages.

I can’t think of a fractal that can’t be soloed.

Edit: what I mean is, unless anet adds some sort of vit/toughness check in the form unmitigated damage (cannot be dodged, ignores block/invulnerability etc.) to their raid boss mechanics, people will still be drawn to zerker gear so they can finish this new content as fast as possible.

Enrif.7359:

- special triggers from some bosses if they got too much damage in a too short of a time, causing a wipe

-perma retaliation on some bosses (go kill youserlf zerks!)

Wat??? I don’t even?

I think some of you are getting confused. They said 2 people should try to control the boss so that the rest of your team mates can clear a path to the edge of the platform so that EVERYONE can glide away and then dive-bomb.

The point of a tank is to try to hold aggro and remain alive. Whether or not you remain alive through CC, healing, kiting, dodging, invulnerability, negative damage modifiers or blocks doesn’t really matter. Just hold aggro and stay alive.

I’m sure a a few people on any team will still be able to run full zerk. It just won’t be optimal all the time for everyone. We don’t want to completely destroy the need for any zerk builds. We just can’t have every single person running it.

Enrif – Your solutions are utterly insane.

Enrif.7359:

or you kite the boss, dodge roll, CC.

Breakbar on a ranged boss. Also I’m sure there is a breakbar in that phase, so you need to cc+survive, or wipe.

difficult, not insane. Already saw similar tools on bosses in other games

Kidel.2057:

Enrif.7359:

or you kite the boss, dodge roll, CC.

Breakbar on a ranged boss. Also I’m sure there is a breakbar in that phase, so you need to cc+survive, or wipe.

The CC is likely necessary so the rest of your group can attack the wall at the edge of the arena without getting wiped by smaller AoEs. Depending how long the defiant bar takes to break, I’d say one or two thieves specced for CC could handle it easily.

Enrif.7359:

difficult, not insane. Already saw similar tools on bosses in other games

None of the things you suggested are fun or interesting game mechanics. Instant party wipe because one player wasn’t watching his DPS meter closely enough? No thanks.

We’ve already experienced permanent retaliation with mordrem wolves. Guess what happened there? (Hint: they no longer have retaliation at all).

Tongku.5326:

Harper.4173:

Kidel.2057:

I’m pretty sure he said you need 2 players keeping cc on the boss while the others glide away. Am I wrong?
However with similar gimmicks coming into place I can definitely see a change in the full zerker meta.

So I can’t cc as full zerker now? My hammer CCs on warrior require me to wear PVT armor?

Not necessarily, you can still do it, but someone else will have to keep you up and provide prot, regen, stability, group cleansing, aegis, etc. as it was stated earlier in today’s feed on twitch.

Personally, if I am in a group where someone is consistantly unwilling to pull their weight, I boot them or leave for a better group. So, yea, it might be required. Up to you and your team comp.

So a full zerker guardian with hammer, hallowed ground ( I can bring my own stability too) and cleansing can’t do it?

I seriously doubt roles will be required that much. They said no required composition – there are a lot of compositions that don’t have access to aoe stability or high amount of cleansing or protection.

Look at a mesmer/thief/warrior/ heavy group – they should still be able to complete.

Ultimately I think the most we can say about the zerker meta is that it will evolve but if you think that in the end doing these raids won’t be come do it as fast as possible I think your expectations are misplaced.

but with the Mordrem Wolf you see, they already played with the idea, yet it was to much for simple open world content, but for raids? why not.

also stating from their page

You’ll be dependent on keeping yourself alive and helping support your team while playing your profession. Everyone will be expected to pitch in and execute at a high level to ensure success.

its called Challenging Group Content, so let it be really challenging!

Quarktastic.1027:

Kidel.2057:

Quarktastic.1027:

If people can solo scale 50 fractals in full zerker/sinister gear, I doubt raids will cause the zerker meta to change.

Very few people can do it, in very specific fractals and with very specific builds. Also taking ages.

I can’t think of a fractal that can’t be soloed.

Edit: what I mean is, unless anet adds some sort of vit/toughness check in the form unmitigated damage (cannot be dodged, ignores block/invulnerability etc.) to their raid boss mechanics, people will still be drawn to zerker gear so they can finish this new content as fast as possible.

And the beauty of it is that even if they do add this – people will migrate to the next-in-line best DPS gear that allows them to live and that will become the new “zerker”.

The trick here is that they can’t add unmitigateable damage for some players only – so they get to tank while others can do something else. They either add it for everybody – and we all are forced to let’s say Knight – and Knight becomes the new zerker or they don’t add it at all – in which case there’s no real reason to take tankier gear if you can mitigate your damage.

Demented Yak.6105:

I think some of you are getting confused. They said 2 people should try to control the boss so that the rest of your team mates can clear a path to the edge of the platform so that EVERYONE can glide away and then dive-bomb.

The point of a tank is to try to hold aggro and remain alive. Whether or not you remain alive through CC, healing, kiting, dodging, invulnerability, negative damage modifiers or blocks doesn’t really matter. Just hold aggro and stay alive.

I’m sure a a few people on any team will still be able to run full zerk. It just won’t be optimal all the time for everyone. We don’t want to completely destroy the need for any zerk builds. We just can’t have every single person running it.

Enrif – Your solutions are utterly insane.

So you speculate that these people will be unable to stay on the boss in zerker gear – which if true means the boss is very hard and I would speculate the majority of GW2’s player base won’t be able to engage it even in PVT with any margin of success.

I’m pretty sure the best players in the game will be able to run these raids in full damage gear – and that most others will need more tank and heals thrown in there.

To make the damage unmitigateable to the point where people that are really high-end and skilled players need tankier gear is to make content that most players won’t touch let alone succeed.

Kormeg.2469:

Kidel.2057:

How do you call something that does cc to not take damage?
How do you call something that does cc to drain break bars and doesn’t take lethal damage meanwhile?

I call both forms of tanking.

And that’s just your definition.

Mine says that a tank is someone that forces enemies to attack them instead of their teammates, so said mates can focus on dps.

And I dont see that happening.

The only way you could bring a tank in to the game is if the boss’s basic attack’s one shot’s a zerker with a protection buff, but in doing so you will also create a need for a healer and we then say welcome to the trinity

However full zerk is already pointless on herald and reaper who can reach 100% crit rate without maxing precision

JVJD.4912:

Kormeg.2469:

Kidel.2057:

How do you call something that does cc to not take damage?
How do you call something that does cc to drain break bars and doesn’t take lethal damage meanwhile?

I call both forms of tanking.

And that’s just your definition.

Mine says that a tank is someone that forces enemies to attack them instead of their teammates, so said mates can focus on dps.

And I dont see that happening.

The only way you could bring a tank in to the game is if the boss’s basic attack’s one shot’s a zerker with a protection buff, but in doing so you will also create a need for a healer and we then say welcome to the trinity

In one of the previous POI colin said he’s not against the trinity, but against specific roles for specific classes

Harper.4173:

Demented Yak.6105:

I think some of you are getting confused. They said 2 people should try to control the boss so that the rest of your team mates can clear a path to the edge of the platform so that EVERYONE can glide away and then dive-bomb.

The point of a tank is to try to hold aggro and remain alive. Whether or not you remain alive through CC, healing, kiting, dodging, invulnerability, negative damage modifiers or blocks doesn’t really matter. Just hold aggro and stay alive.

I’m sure a a few people on any team will still be able to run full zerk. It just won’t be optimal all the time for everyone. We don’t want to completely destroy the need for any zerk builds. We just can’t have every single person running it.

Enrif – Your solutions are utterly insane.

So you speculate that these people will be unable to stay on the boss in zerker gear – which if true means the boss is very hard and I would speculate the majority of GW2’s player base won’t be able to engage it even in PVT with any margin of success.

I’m pretty sure the best players in the game will be able to run these raids in full damage gear – and that most others will need more tank and heals thrown in there.

To make the damage unmitigateable to the point where people that are really high-end and skilled players need tankier gear is to make content that most players won’t touch let alone succeed.

Just because you have damage that can’t be mitigated doesn’t mean you are forced to pick up a tankier gear set. What this would do however is make having actual Supports in the group beneficial and needed. These are what are called options. Either the whole group gets tankier gear to self sustain or you lose the DPS of 1 or 2 memebers who switch to support to allow other members to go full damage. If this content doesn’t have even this level of strategy its going to be awful. Rev Ventari has an insane amount of group healing if the raids don’t take advantage of this Legend or other support built classes I will be severely disappointed.

Kidel.2057:

JVJD.4912:

Kormeg.2469:

Kidel.2057:

How do you call something that does cc to not take damage?
How do you call something that does cc to drain break bars and doesn’t take lethal damage meanwhile?

I call both forms of tanking.

And that’s just your definition.

Mine says that a tank is someone that forces enemies to attack them instead of their teammates, so said mates can focus on dps.

And I dont see that happening.

The only way you could bring a tank in to the game is if the boss’s basic attack’s one shot’s a zerker with a protection buff, but in doing so you will also create a need for a healer and we then say welcome to the trinity

In one of the previous POI colin said he’s not against the trinity, but against specific roles for specific classes

^This. There is nothing AT ALL wrong with the Trinity. The problem is when each class can only perform 1 role and then some classes perform that 1 role better then others which makes every other class that is locked into that one role useless. This is not an issue in GW2. Most classes can perform multiple roles and do them well. Sure some still need some work ,but the basis is there. We just need content that requires tankier built players and players built 100% around group support (This means Healing Power).

“However if all the other players are forced to leave the platform and you’re the only one that can face the boss, then here you have your tank definition.”

That’s not what he said, he said that a few players would have to break off from the fight to clear a path and then everyone would jump on the gliders and fly above the boss.

Harper.4173:

And the beauty of it is that even if they do add this – people will migrate to the next-in-line best DPS gear that allows them to live and that will become the new “zerker”.

The trick here is that they can’t add unmitigateable damage for some players only – so they get to tank while others can do something else. They either add it for everybody – and we all are forced to let’s say Knight – and Knight becomes the new zerker or they don’t add it at all – in which case there’s no real reason to take tankier gear if you can mitigate your damage.

They can. Some random mechanics:

-The nearest player receives high damage (can be even multiple players like 2 or 3)
-An aoe field appears and one players has to step in and receive high damage. If no player steps in the whole raid receives high damage instead.
-Orbs spawn and travel randomly through the arena. They explode and deal damage if touched. They ONLY disappear when someone touches them. (Meaning if not touched(removed) the arena will be filled with them at some time)
-A random player gets frozen. To unfreeze the frozen player another player has to go near the ice and interact with it. The helping player will receive high damage.

And the best thing is if you have such mechanics you can even have “reverse” mechanics like attacks that deal % damage which tanky players should avoid instead.

There are millions of possibility to indirectly “force” differnt kinds of gear and skills. But looking at the announcement it seems that won’t be the case.

Griffith.7238:

^This. There is nothing AT ALL wrong with the Trinity. The problem is when each class can only perform 1 role and then some classes perform that 1 role better then others which makes every other class that is locked into that one role useless. This is not an issue in GW2. Most classes can perform multiple roles and do them well. Sure some still need some work ,but the basis is there. We just need content that requires tankier built players and players built 100% around group support (This means Healing Power).

The main reason for that is because in GW2 all the content is way too easy. In other MMOs with roles and classes each class is good enough to clean the general easy content too.
The problems only appear when it gets very difficult.

It will most likely echo the dungeon meta, making things harder will push this meta to it’s limit. There will most likely be little wiggle room and you’ll end up with a hard comp where certain situations arise and some classes are just better than others at dealing with them. Which the game current gives us.

I don’t fully understand how the game mechanics will be for “keeping the boss busy,” but mobs usually agro on the player doing the most damage. That’s not tank build. So, sounds like some dedicated healing might be called for.

If you still are not convinced: https://twitter.com/RoyCronacher/status/637781113126023168

You do realise that a role like cc spammer in no way requires any specific gear, right?

GragorR.9768:

Enrif.7359:

- special triggers from some bosses if they got too much damage in a too short of a time, causing a wipe

-perma retaliation on some bosses (go kill youserlf zerks!)

Wat??? I don’t even?

What´s so funny about this? Granted, I am not that versed in combat mechanic, but retaliation that is not capped is the way to go for a boss mob to kill a zerker attacker, or not? There are no healing batteries in GW2, you needed a dedicated healer to heal a zerker type of guy in the MMOs of old…^^

Kidel.2057:

JVJD.4912:

Kormeg.2469:

Kidel.2057:

How do you call something that does cc to not take damage?
How do you call something that does cc to drain break bars and doesn’t take lethal damage meanwhile?

I call both forms of tanking.

And that’s just your definition.

Mine says that a tank is someone that forces enemies to attack them instead of their teammates, so said mates can focus on dps.

And I dont see that happening.

The only way you could bring a tank in to the game is if the boss’s basic attack’s one shot’s a zerker with a protection buff, but in doing so you will also create a need for a healer and we then say welcome to the trinity

In one of the previous POI colin said he’s not against the trinity, but against specific roles for specific classes

Yes but if you require hard roles then you have a bit of a pickle – because one class will inevitably do a certain role better – and we’ll be in a bad spot then.

Not only will people demand that class and require it to do the content but the players that play that class will be unable to play any other role because this role is now demanded.
Imagine playing a revenant and being forced to Ventari all the time because it’s the best healer/support.

Griffith.7238:

Harper.4173:

Demented Yak.6105:

I think some of you are getting confused. They said 2 people should try to control the boss so that the rest of your team mates can clear a path to the edge of the platform so that EVERYONE can glide away and then dive-bomb.

The point of a tank is to try to hold aggro and remain alive. Whether or not you remain alive through CC, healing, kiting, dodging, invulnerability, negative damage modifiers or blocks doesn’t really matter. Just hold aggro and stay alive.

I’m sure a a few people on any team will still be able to run full zerk. It just won’t be optimal all the time for everyone. We don’t want to completely destroy the need for any zerk builds. We just can’t have every single person running it.

Enrif – Your solutions are utterly insane.

So you speculate that these people will be unable to stay on the boss in zerker gear – which if true means the boss is very hard and I would speculate the majority of GW2’s player base won’t be able to engage it even in PVT with any margin of success.

I’m pretty sure the best players in the game will be able to run these raids in full damage gear – and that most others will need more tank and heals thrown in there.

To make the damage unmitigateable to the point where people that are really high-end and skilled players need tankier gear is to make content that most players won’t touch let alone succeed.

Just because you have damage that can’t be mitigated doesn’t mean you are forced to pick up a tankier gear set. What this would do however is make having actual Supports in the group beneficial and needed. These are what are called options. Either the whole group gets tankier gear to self sustain or you lose the DPS of 1 or 2 memebers who switch to support to allow other members to go full damage. If this content doesn’t have even this level of strategy its going to be awful. Rev Ventari has an insane amount of group healing if the raids don’t take advantage of this Legend or other support built classes I will be severely disappointed.

Initially I think that raids will require someone doing this – I remember the meta of old days with 1 anchor guardian that emerged a while after release. Ultimately I think that the more we do the content this role will be dropped. Yes – in theory you might require one or two people to go heal and sustain the party but ultimately good coordination might mean you can blast water fields effectively as a group and circumvent the damage loss.

We’ll have to see – but if a healer/supporter role is required I don’t really see how their " all compositions viable" statement still holds.

Neox.3497:

Harper.4173:

And the beauty of it is that even if they do add this – people will migrate to the next-in-line best DPS gear that allows them to live and that will become the new “zerker”.

The trick here is that they can’t add unmitigateable damage for some players only – so they get to tank while others can do something else. They either add it for everybody – and we all are forced to let’s say Knight – and Knight becomes the new zerker or they don’t add it at all – in which case there’s no real reason to take tankier gear if you can mitigate your damage.

They can. Some random mechanics:

-The nearest player receives high damage (can be even multiple players like 2 or 3)
-An aoe field appears and one players has to step in and receive high damage. If no player steps in the whole raid receives high damage instead.
-Orbs spawn and travel randomly through the arena. They explode and deal damage if touched. They ONLY disappear when someone touches them. (Meaning if not touched(removed) the arena will be filled with them at some time)
-A random player gets frozen. To unfreeze the frozen player another player has to go near the ice and interact with it. The helping player will receive high damage.

And the best thing is if you have such mechanics you can even have “reverse” mechanics like attacks that deal % damage which tanky players should avoid instead.

There are millions of possibility to indirectly “force” differnt kinds of gear and skills. But looking at the announcement it seems that won’t be the case.

Griffith.7238:

^This. There is nothing AT ALL wrong with the Trinity. The problem is when each class can only perform 1 role and then some classes perform that 1 role better then others which makes every other class that is locked into that one role useless. This is not an issue in GW2. Most classes can perform multiple roles and do them well. Sure some still need some work ,but the basis is there. We just need content that requires tankier built players and players built 100% around group support (This means Healing Power).

The main reason for that is because in GW2 all the content is way too easy. In other MMOs with roles and classes each class is good enough to clean the general easy content too.
The problems only appear when it gets very difficult.

Let me just point out that “random mechanics” are a staple of bad gameplay. Nobody likes things happening that are random. That you can’t plan or prepare for – that you can’t overcome with skilled play.

This – receive high damage idea is great and all but think about this – the downed state – even if you take huge damage you won’t die – you’ll get downed.
Downed + team spike res or warbanner means going down in the first place isn’t a huge problem.

As a final note – forcing players is another thing you don’t want to do. At least the way I see it.

I see two possible scenarios playing out.

1. fights have standard dps checks. In this scenario the boss has a wipe mechanic that occurs after a certain length of time. You must defeat the boss by this time limit. This will encourage the zerker meta, with team coordination and active defenses.

2. fights have no dps check. Fight is on an endless loop that goes until you either wipe or kill the boss. Zerker meta will still be used for the best players in the game, but casual groups and pugs will use the new nomads/PVT meta to just outlast the bosses and eventually down them. Sure it might takes 3x longer, but they will still clear it.

You can’t ever get rid of zerker’s because gear has no bearing on roles. You can blast fields no matter what gear you are wearing and you still have access to all your support/defensive skills no matter what gear you have.

Enrif.7359:

I call it control or support.

as a tank you take the hits and survive thanks to high health/armor/evasion, and steady healing in coming

Id call a tank anything that has aggro for a majority of time.