Guild Wars 2

I have no problem with stealth itself, well yes I kitten do, but I see now engis can grant the party stealth. The game does not need any more stealth unless it adds counters to it for EACH class. Mesmers spamming MI and clones have taken over wvw, all but ruining 1/3 of the game.

Bah, the point is add all the stealth you want, but give each class (or several) counters to it.

And Sic ‘Em doesn’t count

Umm…what? Engineers have been able to group stealth since the game launched.

Oh, you’re complaining about the new stealth ability that actually shows you right where the engineer is because the drone stays unstealthed, even though engis have been able to group stealth with smoke field combos and Elixir S since launch, lol.

P.s. Maybe you stopped reading, but if you would have read one line further down, you would have seen this:

“Tool Belt Skill—Detection Pulse:

Remove stealth from enemies in a large area.
On a short recharge, this toolbelt skill helps ensure that you are the one getting the drop on foes and not vice versa."

Well Engi’s now have one more additional stealth reveal with the gyro’s death on top of it’s Goggle and trait proc’d Goggle. And Sic ‘Em does count, just because it’s not a reactionary but an anticipatory type skill doesn’t make it redundant.

Furthermore Engi already had stealth capability, blasting smoke field and tool belt skill of Elixir S which when traited can give 6s of stealth with just 32s CD.

Now they have a petit gyro that could party stealth but what’s the point? Mobs/enemies can see it and assuming it has similar tankiness of Engi’s turrets, it’ll go down without any trouble and out they pop.

While I do understand your concern, it’s really not a big deal. It’s not like the Engi can stack stealth in the middle of battle – only use is the tool belt Elixir S which is hardly spammable and needs to be ground targeted.
Thief’s stealth is their poor method of defense… They are at most +1 roles nowadays. I do agree with you on Mesmers. It doesn’t make sense that they should be allowed more easily applicable stealth than Thieves, while being able to spawn clones and phantasms and still remain stealthed. Seriously it’s just a rude middle finger to the faces of Thief players.

And just to drive the final nail in the flawed argument posted by the OP: The newest thief specialization gives them no new stealth skills unless you count a leap finisher on dodge that will just as easily reveal them due to the damage it does.

Thanks for the info, I was not singling out engis, or stealth. Once again stealth is not the issue counters are, so the engi has two now. Ranger has one.
Are there any others I am missing?

Mesmers…and MI is the only ‘unfun’ part of wvw right now. I can handle server imbalance, the ever present blobs, and ACs through walls, but if classes aren’t going to get more counters (and they won’t) please bump stealth traps up to an hour lol.

DresdenAllblack.1249:

Thanks for the info, I was not singling out engis, or stealth. Once again stealth is not the issue counters are, so the engi has two now. Ranger has one.
Are there any others I am missing?

Mesmers…and MI is the only ‘unfun’ part of wvw right now. I can handle server imbalance, the ever present blobs, and ACs through walls, but if classes aren’t going to get more counters (and they won’t) please bump stealth traps up to an hour lol.

Yea, you are missing something. Sic’ Em. Oh, but that just doesn’t count because you said so. Well, let’s skip that for a second:

- Wolf howl can be used to fear out of Shadow Refuge.
– Rapid fire follows targets, even when they stealth halfway through.
– All AoE still counters stealth. Traps, Barrage, etc. all apply here.
– Counterattack still protects you from stealthed targets.

It’s actually kinda amusing that you cited a class that’s probably one of the best hard counters to a thief in a 1 v 1 scenario.

Don’t forget about the Herald, i believe one of his glint utilities can reveal stealthed enemies , cannot remember the name of it tho :p

Yes there are counter but, I kind of agree, we really don’t need more stealth in the game.

you don’t need hard counters to kill players in stealth
you can be a ranger and kill mesmer without sickem really.

Imo too much stealth can ruin an otherwise fun game. Gw1 had a perfect amount of stealth, but Gw2 went a little overboard with it.

So yes, please no more stealth.

Penguin.5197:

Imo too much stealth can ruin an otherwise fun game. Gw1 had a perfect amount of stealth, but Gw2 went a little overboard with it.

So yes, please no more stealth.

GW1 had no stealth mechanics, only blocks & evades, you could never hide from enemy targeting.

Riot Inducer.8964:

Penguin.5197:

Imo too much stealth can ruin an otherwise fun game. Gw1 had a perfect amount of stealth, but Gw2 went a little overboard with it.

So yes, please no more stealth.

GW1 had no stealth mechanics, only blocks & evades, you could never hide from enemy targeting.

Maybe that was the joke. Perfect amount, aka 0.

The engineer stealth does have a counter look for the drone its actually a double edged sword you will know where he is but you dont know how many he has with him

Revenant, or rather its elite specialization, Herald, has aoe reveal: https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Gaze_of_Darkness

Mcrocha.3891:

Riot Inducer.8964:

Penguin.5197:

Imo too much stealth can ruin an otherwise fun game. Gw1 had a perfect amount of stealth, but Gw2 went a little overboard with it.

So yes, please no more stealth.

GW1 had no stealth mechanics, only blocks & evades, you could never hide from enemy targeting.

Maybe that was the joke. Perfect amount, aka 0.

Thanks for getting it lol

Problem isn’t the stealth itself, it that the burst damage of stealth classes is completely broken. When a mesmer can shatter you from 100% hp to 0% hp from stealth in half a second while going through your shield (3 blocked attacks) there is something seriously wrong with balance.

Xillllix.3485:

Problem isn’t the stealth itself, it that the burst damage of stealth classes is completely broken. When a mesmer can shatter you from 100% hp to 0% hp from stealth in half a second while going through your shield (3 blocked attacks) there is something seriously wrong with balance.

That and on the PvE side it trivializes and let’s you just bypass 90% of the content. WvW it makes mesmers the best roamer a even out shining thieves since they can stealth an entire Zerg for a pretty decent amount of time.

I can’t believe I’m saying this, but I actuallly miss when thieves were the kings of stealth.
-_- that and I wish PvE had more ways of countering it to let you not skip content.

Frightlight.3796:

The engineer stealth does have a counter look for the drone its actually a double edged sword you will know where he is but you dont know how many he has with him

It’s not so much Engineers having stealth, I’m sure no ones intention is to take away from Engineers in general, it’s more the fact that the version of stealth in GW2 is obnoxious. The two classes that can stealth show that anet goes overboard, we simply don’t need more stealth in the game. Its nice to see they added a counter by making the drone visable but it still doesn’t change the fact that it’s simply not needed.

Why not just give everyone stealth, then we can all play avoid wars 2, fights can last 4 hours each resulting in no one dying because one person/side just gets bored and stealths away.

TheLastNobody.8319:

…on the PvE side it trivializes and let’s you just bypass 90% of the content.

Stealth skipping is intended. Why do you think it’s not? If it wasn’t mobs wouldn’t have a leash that can be broken.

TheLastNobody.8319:

That and on the PvE side it trivializes and let’s you just bypass 90% of the content.

Trash mobs without loot and patrols that are there to be avoided is not content.

Im fine with the short 2-4 second stealths. Its the long duration stealths like mass invisability or shadow refuge that I think are broken. So no to any more long duration stealths.

I think stealth itself is fine. As I see it, the issue is with the length of some of the stealth skills being too long. Not all, but some. I feel a Secondary issue is the ability to string stealth skills together.

So wolf howl will drop a thief out of SR, what about a mesmer from MI?

It sounds like trap ranger for the win.

DresdenAllblack.1249:

So wolf howl will drop a thief out of SR, what about a mesmer from MI?

Interrupt them. MI have such a long casting time of almost 2 seconds. You have the skill 5 on GS, the skill 4 on Longbow, taunt and fear. All of those would interrupt MI and they all have faster cast time than MI. But the wolf have a too long cast time to be efficient against MI, leaving you around 0.25 second to react, at that point you are better to swap to Eagle/Owl and use their taunt.

1. Aoe’s are not reliable enough against stealth. Not everyone can perma spam aoe skills. Mesmer and thief’s can stay in stealth a really really long time.
2. Traps are also not good, they can simply dodge into it. Also, they are still invisible even if they receive damage from it.
3. Howl is too slow
4. Channel skills will follow them, but that’s it. They can still dodge while in stealth, or outrun you. Also, don’t expect to kill them with this. They can also heal while in stealth.

The only way to truly counter them is “Revealed”. This debuff should be available to any class.

Agreed Kirnale.

I main a Warrior, I am useless against MI & SR, and I am willing to accept that if more classes had reveals. Usually my party consists of a Guardian, 2 Cele Eles, myself, and a Engineer, who doesn’t usually slot goggles.

One mesmer, definitely two will not wipe us but just sit in a keep or a castle for 15-20 minutes irritating the kitten out of us.

It’s not fun for them, it’s not for us.

And that is meta for you.

A lot of salty Thief haters on this thread. Sounds like a Lrn 2 Play issue to me.

Yup, Some people probably got killed by a Mesmer or Thief and didn’t like it. L2P

nikdik.1934:

A lot of salty Thief haters on this thread. Sounds like a Lrn 2 Play issue to me.

Thaddeus.4891:

Yup, Some people probably got killed by a Mesmer or Thief and didn’t like it. L2P

No, how about you leanr 2 play w/o using broken mechanics to gain advantage !
thief players always claim it’s l2p issue, it is not ! a.net has known for well over a year that stealth is a broken mechanic, that up to now has had no active counters.

stealth disengage /reengage is way powerful, other players have had no way of actively scanning for them pesky annoying stealth users…
Now we will have an active way to actively scan an area for YOU !
prepare yourselves !!!

Kirnale.5914:

1. Aoe’s are not reliable enough against stealth. Not everyone can perma spam aoe skills. Mesmer and thief’s can stay in stealth a really really long time.
2. Traps are also not good, they can simply dodge into it. Also, they are still invisible even if they receive damage from it.
3. Howl is too slow
4. Channel skills will follow them, but that’s it. They can still dodge while in stealth, or outrun you. Also, don’t expect to kill them with this. They can also heal while in stealth.

The only way to truly counter them is “Revealed”. This debuff should be available to any class.

DresdenAllblack.1249:

Agreed Kirnale.

I main a Warrior, I am useless against MI & SR, and I am willing to accept that if more classes had reveals. Usually my party consists of a Guardian, 2 Cele Eles, myself, and a Engineer, who doesn’t usually slot goggles.

One mesmer, definitely two will not wipe us but just sit in a keep or a castle for 15-20 minutes irritating the kitten out of us.

It’s not fun for them, it’s not for us.

And that is meta for you.

These are all valid criticisms for the most part about what is wrong with stealth.

2 mesmers being able to keep 10 players in a tower for a fairly long amount of time due to stealth BS is NOT skill, it is taking advantage of broken mechanics.

It is a l2p issue. OP states that his party is composed of guardian, 2 eles, engineer without goggles and warrior.

If you find mesmers with MI are completely ruining it for you, then why would you not ask the engi to finally slot goggles? Or ask the eles to put down some cc to lock down the mesmer?

Yea, l2p.

These are all valid criticisms for the most part about what is wrong with stealth.
2 mesmers being able to keep 10 players in a tower for a fairly long amount of time due to stealth BS is NOT skill, it is taking advantage of broken mechanics.

My question here is, why don’t you stop zerging the 2 mesmers with 10, leave 2 of your own players to fight the 2 mesmers and have the other 8 players go do something else?

aoe and paying attention is all the stealth counter you need

I bet all those thieves claiming it is an l2p issue are the same ones crying their eyes out because of the toolbelt skill of Scrappers stealth gyroid.

Guys, this is not about how to fight a mesmer or a thief.
This is about how to counter stealth itself.

You say it’s a l2p issue, then tell me how you can remove his stealth pls ? Once stealth is active, there is no way to counter it. All you can do is sit and wait for him to come and guess when he is coming or guess his path. Balance is there, when the positiv aspects = negativ aspects. Stealth is almost about 100% positiv.

Stealth:
+ You are 100% invisible, even if you are standing right in front of your enemy
+ Your movement speed is the same as being visible = High mobility
+ Your stealth cannot be removed once activted
+ You can heal and cleanse while in stealth
+ You can reset combats
+ You can wait until some CDs are ready
+ You can always have the first strike, which is a huge advantage
+ You can dodge while in stealth
+ You can use movement skills, as well as teleports
+ Some classes have a long stealth uptime
+ You can revive and be revived while being invisible
- Few classes have “Revealed” debuff
- Channel skills follows you for a short amount of time

Total: Positive:11, Negativ: 2

Compare it to WoW: (Which I wanted to avoid, but still needed since they are balanced there)
+ You can be healed and cleansed while in stealth
+ You can reset combats depending on your CD on stealth(vanish)
+ You can wait until some CDs are ready
+ You can always have the first strike, if you are careful
+ You can use teleports
+ Stealth is infinite long
- Few classes have Revealed skills(Hunter, or aoe in general)
- Your stealth is removed when hit
- You are not 100% invisible
- Your movement speed is limited
- Your stealth can be removed when hit
- Stealth is removed when conditions/dots are doing damage and you don’t have a shield

Total: Positiv: 6 , Negativ: 6

Ofc I am not asking to take the stealth from WoW to gw2. This is all about how two different games handle their balances.

Gw2 gives stealth all the freedom possible.

If you think it is an l2p issue, then bring some facts to the table and tell me ways to counter stealth. I am waiting. The only thing I’ve read, whenever such a thread is created, is that players claims it is an l2p issue which is clearly not. It is the same as burning, the damage is over the top, but you can at least cleanse it(as counter).

Penguin.5197:

Imo too much stealth can ruin an otherwise fun game. Gw1 had a perfect amount of stealth, but Gw2 went a little overboard with it.

So yes, please no more stealth.

GW1 also had the perfect amount of taunt and fear!

Kirnale.5914:

+ Your stealth cannot be removed once activated
+ You can heal and cleanse while in stealth
+ You can reset combats
+ You can wait until some CDs are ready
+ You can always have the first strike, which is a huge advantage
+ You can dodge while in stealth
+ You can use movement skills, as well as teleports
+ Some classes have a long stealth uptime
+ You can revive and be revived while being invisible
- Few classes have “Revealed” debuff
- Channel skills follows you for a short amount of time

.

1st: Stealth can’t be removed once activated and in the same list you reference revealed. Do you NOT know that removes stealth, and prevents it from being applied. Just trolling? You are the primary person who complains who NEEDS to actually go play a thief more than anything else where this game is concerned. A week of playing, maybe less if you do your leveling in spvp, and I promise your complaints would be gone.

Heals and cleans, we have the worst in the game when it comes to that. We have to get stealth for 3 seconds to remove one condition, and unlike almost every other condition removal available, thief’s is limited strictly to certain types of condition removal. That’s right we have no one stop shop for removal at all. The heal, really?
Again you’re a player that NEEDS to play the class just so you can see how FAR OUT THERE you really are.

Channeled skills follow for their full duration. Not even sure why you brought this up, as most people consider this a bug if anything, and has been like this since Beta. It’s also extremely annoying.

I’m done, you are so completely ignorant of the class and its mechanics, much less its actual state in the game right now. Go play one and get a clue. There’s simply no way you can play it, and not hop on ANY other class and not feel that playing the other classes are easier, and way more forgiving of mistakes. Most thieves actually do this, simply because right now thieves are out right depressing to play.

1. You know, in order to apply the debuff revealed, you need a target. Means you cannot reveal him once he is gone.
2. I am not talking about thief, I am talking about stealth in general. You should learn to read.
3. Ever thought that a mesmer can fullheal while stealth ? Also you can reset combats to heal urself
4. Calling me ignorant while you completely ignored my post. Nice !
5. Try to play ranger and you know you can’t reveal him when he is gone.

I do just fine on my ranger, thanks for asking.
Ignorance is bliss i guess.

Add a rune set which shout “Sic ‘Em” on hit so that everyone have access of anti-stealth measure.

Xovian.8572:

1st: Stealth can’t be removed once activated and in the same list you reference revealed. Do you NOT know that removes stealth, and prevents it from being applied.

issue is that the most of existing skills applying revealed are targeted long cd short revealed skills so not only if you want to count it “countermeasure” you need to apply it in fractions of seconds before he will want to cast a stealth – but also means that once in stealth you cannot break it – only thing you can do is to predict where he is and spam AoE’s there…

with one single exceptien of new elite specialisation of engineer posessing access to toolbelt skill that is AoE reveal.

This was never about thief, I play thief, I like thief. This is about stealth only. I view stealth right now as a condition not all classes have the ability to cleanse.

Whinge whinge whinge. Problem isn’t stealth, it’s mesmers. Thief? Who the hell cares about Thieves stealthing now? You would know if you ever played Thief properly. Their roles at most is +1. They can’t do kitten while in Stealth. Just check out the Thief’s forum and you’ll get the clear image.

There is no point debating stealth in of it’s own – only the classes that use them and how their basic mechanism works with it should be the focal point. One(Thief) needs it because it’s their whole kittening point of being that profession, others(ranger/engineer) rarely use them and when they do they kitten out on using 1 or more utilities just to get stealth. It’s not like they can play to their full capacity AND have stealth. There is always a compromise which is a double-edged sword which then becomes a L2P for you to know when and how they are vulnerable with skills on CD. Problem is Mesmer, but I’ll get to that later.

You can cleave, AoE or use revealing skills, if you don’t have them – it’s not the end of the world. Stealthed Thief doesn’t mean the end for you – half the time they miss, you move out of the radius, some even get lucky time dodges. If you’re staying still then of course that’s godkitten L2P. Got hit? Big deal. Once they reveal themselves DPS them down with ease and laugh on their courpse because between stealthing and kitten they’ve got skills on CD and low initiative. Stealth is Thief’s most valuable and only utility that makes them unique – and it’s pathetic.

So what if they run away? That’s the other half of the usefulness of stealth – they can’t kill you, so they run away. You gonna cry over it? You kittening won. I wouldn’t feel kitten in that case, I’d feel kittening awesome and feel sorry for them.

You whiners need to know that Thieves can’t sustain as well as others and their only defense mechanism is stealth. Their best method of dueling is surprise attack and spike damage. That’s it. It’s actually kittening pitiful.
While some Thieves do sustain well using p/d and SB, they won’t be using stealth a lot due to their weapon skills. Nevertheless if you see a stealthed p/d thief use their stealth attack on you? Dodge it. The projectiles are visible clear as day. Stealthed d/p thief around? Move your kittening kitten around, cleave and use AoE. Guess what? You might end up dealing more damage in the end while they scramble themselves trying to find the ideal time and place to attack again. Use that to your bloody strategy and play better.

You think Thieves can play just like any other classes AND stealth? Learn the bloody class again.

Problem is the kittening Mesmers. Because they are they ones having all the benefits of stealth AND being able to down you while still in it without a single reveal. Go kitten about them, but if you also learned a little about them, is that they use 2-3 utilities and a trait line required to make that kitten work. Once they use all that stealth up? They ain’t got kitten to play with. DPS them down and teabag their faces.

I usually shut up about rants but once a while people say kitten that just makes no sense. If you played Thief you would know just how kittening awful they are and in need of Anet lovin’.

kevvy.5081:

Whinge whinge whinge. Problem isn’t stealth, it’s mesmers. Thief? Who the hell cares about Thieves stealthing now? You would know if you ever played Thief properly. Their roles at most is +1. They can’t do kitten while in Stealth. Just check out the Thief’s forum and you’ll get the clear image.

There is no point debating stealth in of it’s own – only the classes that use them and how their basic mechanism works with it should be the focal point. One(Thief) needs it because it’s their whole kittening point of being that profession, others(ranger/engineer) rarely use them and when they do they kitten out on using 1 or more utilities just to get stealth. It’s not like they can play to their full capacity AND have stealth. There is always a compromise which is a double-edged sword which then becomes a L2P for you to know when and how they are vulnerable with skills on CD. Problem is Mesmer, but I’ll get to that later.

You can cleave, AoE or use revealing skills, if you don’t have them – it’s not the end of the world. Stealthed Thief doesn’t mean the end for you – half the time they miss, you move out of the radius, some even get lucky time dodges. If you’re staying still then of course that’s godkitten L2P. Got hit? Big deal. Once they reveal themselves DPS them down with ease and laugh on their courpse because between stealthing and kitten they’ve got skills on CD and low initiative. Stealth is Thief’s most valuable and only utility that makes them unique – and it’s pathetic.

So what if they run away? That’s the other half of the usefulness of stealth – they can’t kill you, so they run away. You gonna cry over it? You kittening won. I wouldn’t feel kitten in that case, I’d feel kittening awesome and feel sorry for them.

You whiners need to know that Thieves can’t sustain as well as others and their only defense mechanism is stealth. Their best method of dueling is surprise attack and spike damage. That’s it. It’s actually kittening pitiful.
While some Thieves do sustain well using p/d and SB, they won’t be using stealth a lot due to their weapon skills. Nevertheless if you see a stealthed p/d thief use their stealth attack on you? Dodge it. The projectiles are visible clear as day. Stealthed d/p thief around? Move your kittening kitten around, cleave and use AoE. Guess what? You might end up dealing more damage in the end while they scramble themselves trying to find the ideal time and place to attack again. Use that to your bloody strategy and play better.

You think Thieves can play just like any other classes AND stealth? Learn the bloody class again.

Problem is the kittening Mesmers. Because they are they ones having all the benefits of stealth AND being able to down you while still in it without a single reveal. Go kitten about them, but if you also learned a little about them, is that they use 2-3 utilities and a trait line required to make that kitten work. Once they use all that stealth up? They ain’t got kitten to play with. DPS them down and teabag their faces.

I usually shut up about rants but once a while people say kitten that just makes no sense. If you played Thief you would know just how kittening awful they are and in need of Anet lovin’.

Ehhh for the most part I agree with you, just looking at the trait lines thief traits are in a sorry state, shadow arts just had too much compared to acrobatics.

However, one thing I don’t agree with you on is the whole running away thing. If this was a game where you had to return to base to restore you health or you had to be further out of combat then what you need, that’d be a fine point. But since it’s pretty dang easy to get OOC here, combine that with the mobility stealth classes have, they’ll just regen and come back whilr your defensive measures are on cooldown. Thief this is easier since they have initiative, Mesmer, bit harder to do.

But really the most frustration that comes from stealth is just the fact someone appears out of nowhere and spikes you down. You didn’t see them setup or know their attacks, or see their approach and skill rotation, the only thing you see is big numbers and you flat on the floor.

One thing I will say is with all these additional countermeasures to stealth, it will help push thief problems into the light and make Anet take a better look at the class…..hopefully. Maybe they could make it so stealth is a boon, and reveal a condition. ? Thus allowing for more counterplay and counter-counterplay. I always thought these unremovable buffs and debuffs were bad designs.

I still think stealth itself as buff is a too powerful tool.

The issue thiefes have is anything other than stealth. Nerfing stealth is ok as long as you give them something in return. The stealth is balanced by taking thief as primary target, but they forgot that mesmers can use them too. Thus, becoming a strong buff for ranged fighters. Trying to defeat a condi mesmer with that many teleports and stealth is next to impossible.

As things stands now, thiefs have only stealth and movement skills as defense. A way to fix it is to give them something like else like endure pain, more life, and more reliable out-of-stealth skills and in return put reveal to all classes. This class is too depended on stealth. A class, no matter what his specialization is, shouldn’t be relying only on one buff. That is the real problem here.

Arenanet can’t fix stealth, because thief will lose their everything. But if they don’t fix it, then it will be abused by mesmers.

That is why I think the class thief needs a complete rework. Making them less reliance on stealth will definitely fix the issue. After that, stealth can be fixed.