Guild Wars 2

Jeez, relax it’s probably just an oversight. In the mean time until they fix it you can still get them in the core game.

Obtena.7952:

SteepledHat.1345:

MashMash.1645:

Why do raiders get this perk?

The answer to this question is every issue in HoT.

The answer to this is in every game ever: There is a something you have to do to get the reward to finishing that something. Maybe people are to accustomed being told that they are winners for just participating, but that’s not how life works or games for that matter. Raiders get this ‘perk’ simply because they have done what is necessary to get it.

I would have thought that Legendary Armor, exclusive access to new prefix Asc. trinkets for months and better access to Asc. gear in general was enough of a perk for the privilege of being given harder content that the raid demographic has been demanding for a long time.

If you’re going to use other games as a defense, name one MMO where leveling is gated behind raids. The Mastery system is a leveling stand-in. So is Shards.

Also, “It’s that way because our beloved overlord ANet has decreed it be so” is a kitten poor defense. If that were the answer to every issue, then there would never have been raids in GW2.

IndigoSundown.5419:

Obtena.7952:

SteepledHat.1345:

MashMash.1645:

Why do raiders get this perk?

The answer to this question is every issue in HoT.

The answer to this is in every game ever: There is a something you have to do to get the reward to finishing that something. Maybe people are to accustomed being told that they are winners for just participating, but that’s not how life works or games for that matter. Raiders get this ‘perk’ simply because they have done what is necessary to get it.

I would have thought that Legendary Armor, exclusive access to new prefix Asc. trinkets for months and better access to Asc. gear in general was enough of a perk for the privilege of being given harder content that the raid demographic has been demanding for a long time.

If you’re going to use other games as a defense, name one MMO where leveling is gated behind raids. The Mastery system is a leveling stand-in. So is Shards.

Also, “It’s that way because our beloved overlord ANet has decreed it be so” is a kitten poor defense. If that were the answer to every issue, then there would never have been raids in GW2.

Raider, 158 mastery points, haven’t finished the Nuhoch mastery, don’t get spirit shards. Still not kicking a fuss about it because it’s a pointless thing to be mad about. Yawn.

Next.

Ayrilana.1396:

Zalani.9827:

Ayrilana.1396:

Zalani.9827:

Its not the end of the world but it is pretty bad design to not account for it in this type of game imo.

“I don’t like it” does not equate to “bad design”.

Its bad(or perhaps poor?) design to force people into a game mode they have no interest in when everything else can be completed in the open world. I can see it in games like WoW but It’s not needed in a more casual game like Gw2.

And I never said I don’t like, im actually pretty neutral since I don’t care about spirit shards. I’m merely making a comment on it with how I see it.

Legendary weapons have “forced” players into other game modes since launch. Achievement hunters have been “forced” to do other game modes to maximize their AP count. It is not poor design to have systems that cross over several areas in a game to encourage players to play in those areas no matter how brief it may be in comparison to their usually mode of play.

The escort event is pretty easy. We almost beat it within a couple hours with random players (most had no prior experience with it) with random builds/classes. We easily saw the progression that we were making and would have beaten it within the next few attempts. One of the key things is for players to actually pay attention and to realize that the red rings are bad since the traps kill you. You will need a Mesmer with the the raid masteries, or a few other players, as the tunnel requires a certain mastery.

Okay this is very misleading. I in order to do the escort event you need people to already have raid masteries unlocked. So it’s pretty easy, except for the fact that you have to join a raid group who has already unlocked masteries.

Of course, I didn’t find that out till I tried to do it with my guild tonight. They were not happy.

Sabetha.4910:

IndigoSundown.5419:

Obtena.7952:

SteepledHat.1345:

MashMash.1645:

Why do raiders get this perk?

The answer to this question is every issue in HoT.

The answer to this is in every game ever: There is a something you have to do to get the reward to finishing that something. Maybe people are to accustomed being told that they are winners for just participating, but that’s not how life works or games for that matter. Raiders get this ‘perk’ simply because they have done what is necessary to get it.

I would have thought that Legendary Armor, exclusive access to new prefix Asc. trinkets for months and better access to Asc. gear in general was enough of a perk for the privilege of being given harder content that the raid demographic has been demanding for a long time.

If you’re going to use other games as a defense, name one MMO where leveling is gated behind raids. The Mastery system is a leveling stand-in. So is Shards.

Also, “It’s that way because our beloved overlord ANet has decreed it be so” is a kitten poor defense. If that were the answer to every issue, then there would never have been raids in GW2.

Raider, 158 mastery points, haven’t finished the Nuhoch mastery, don’t get spirit shards. Still not kicking a fuss about it because it’s a pointless thing to be mad about. Yawn.

Next.

Bully for you. I don’t actually give a rat’s kitten about shards, either. What I don’t like is the move from wide-open progression to restrictive progression.

Next.

They should be careful not to stomp too much over the non-raiders even tho the raids have been the main focus for the last year. There are still plenty of non-raiders left, and probably even more returning now when the season 3 finally started.

Locking things that are not even raid related behind raids might not be very wise thing to do.

Ameepa.6793:

They should be careful not to stomp too much over the non-raiders even tho the raids have been the main focus for the last year. There are still plenty of non-raiders left, and probably even more returning now when the season 3 finally started.

Locking things that are not even raid related behind raids might not be very wise thing to do.

I agree.

This will not end well.

Whilst I see the frustration I’m not convinced its a bad design.. Surely if it gets more people into a section of the game that is currently a little too niche – then its a deliberate design to get more users into raids.

The problem part (and here I agree) is a lot of raid guilds behave like spoilt brats at times making it almost impossible to get into a raid.

So whilst the concept on Arenanets side may seem like a solution – the reality is a little different for the less experienced player. Perhaps what we need are a lot more trainee guilds. I know plenty exist but the problem is when it ocmes to an actual raid the spaces are way oversubscribed already.

Ighten Hill.5038:

Whilst I see the frustration I’m not convinced its a bad design.. Surely if it gets more people into a section of the game that is currently a little too niche – then its a deliberate design to get more users into raids.

I’m pretty sure that instead of bringing more people to that section of the game (which, by the way, is only niche because it was meant to be exclusive) it will just generate more negativity towards it.

Vayne.8563:

Ayrilana.1396:

Zalani.9827:

Ayrilana.1396:

Zalani.9827:

Its not the end of the world but it is pretty bad design to not account for it in this type of game imo.

“I don’t like it” does not equate to “bad design”.

Its bad(or perhaps poor?) design to force people into a game mode they have no interest in when everything else can be completed in the open world. I can see it in games like WoW but It’s not needed in a more casual game like Gw2.

And I never said I don’t like, im actually pretty neutral since I don’t care about spirit shards. I’m merely making a comment on it with how I see it.

Legendary weapons have “forced” players into other game modes since launch. Achievement hunters have been “forced” to do other game modes to maximize their AP count. It is not poor design to have systems that cross over several areas in a game to encourage players to play in those areas no matter how brief it may be in comparison to their usually mode of play.

The escort event is pretty easy. We almost beat it within a couple hours with random players (most had no prior experience with it) with random builds/classes. We easily saw the progression that we were making and would have beaten it within the next few attempts. One of the key things is for players to actually pay attention and to realize that the red rings are bad since the traps kill you. You will need a Mesmer with the the raid masteries, or a few other players, as the tunnel requires a certain mastery.

Okay this is very misleading. I in order to do the escort event you need people to already have raid masteries unlocked. So it’s pretty easy, except for the fact that you have to join a raid group who has already unlocked masteries.

Of course, I didn’t find that out till I tried to do it with my guild tonight. They were not happy.

It’s not misleading. Read the bolded.

This game is growing so huge I don’t even have enough time to do everything in the open world. But please don’t lock something behind “doing everything”. Is is not encouraging, it is enforcing.

Sabetha.4910:

Only restrictive if you insist on it being so. Suit yourself. I don’t really care about your plight. I’ll care perhaps when you complain about something worth crying over.

Going from being able to get XP from doing anything in the game (crafting, PvE, PvP, WvW, Dungeons, Fractals, Raids, etc.) to not being able to get XP at all unless you do very specific things is the definition of restrictive.

Vayne.8563:

Mostly true. You have to kill at least one raid boss. Some people sell raids, or do practice teaching raids. After your first kill you unlock raid masteries and you can train them like any other.

Once all your masteries are completed you again get spirit shards for leveling.

We should not have to pay others for content we paid ArenaNet for.

Djinn.9245:

Illconceived Was Na.9781:

Why do people keep assuming that this was intended behavior? Isn’t it just as likely that this is a bug? (Or an oversight.)

Because it is obvious that Anet’s new mandate for GW2 is to try to make people play all game modes whether they want to or not.

I hope not. I’m not financing elitism again.

The obvious solution – and a way to future proof against this issue with the next raid – is to expand the raid experience to offer lower tiers of difficulty, making them more accessible and open to the entire playerbase.

GreyWolf.8670:

Vayne.8563:

Mostly true. You have to kill at least one raid boss. Some people sell raids, or do practice teaching raids. After your first kill you unlock raid masteries and you can train them like any other.

Once all your masteries are completed you again get spirit shards for leveling.

We should not have to pay others for content we paid ArenaNet for.

Exactly, great point.

This feels like the exact raid or die mentality so many people were worried would creep into the game with the introduction of raids. Similarly, I saw a dev post on Reddit stating that high level Fractals were being redesigned to act as a stepping stone towards raids in terms of difficulty. Does everything in the game have to revolve around raids in some way now? Is this what the game’s about?

Tapioca.9062:

This feels like the exact raid or die mentality so many people were worried would creep into the game with the introduction of raids. Similarly, I saw a dev post on Reddit stating that high level Fractals were being redesigned to act as a stepping stone towards raids in terms of difficulty. Does everything in the game have to revolve around raids in some way now? Is this what the game’s about?

out of topic but why is it bad that they are creating a ramp in difficulty from Fractal lvl 1 open world to raid?
On top of that it is not remotely true, I found some T4 Fractals harder than raid, for different reasons than I can find raid difficult but still.

Ranael.6423:

Tapioca.9062:

This feels like the exact raid or die mentality so many people were worried would creep into the game with the introduction of raids. Similarly, I saw a dev post on Reddit stating that high level Fractals were being redesigned to act as a stepping stone towards raids in terms of difficulty. Does everything in the game have to revolve around raids in some way now? Is this what the game’s about?

out of topic but why is it bad that they are creating a ramp in difficulty from Fractal lvl 1 open world to raid?
On top of that it is not remotely true, I found some T4 Fractals harder than raid, for different reasons than I can find raid difficult but still.

The increase in difficulty itself isn’t the issue. It’s the stated rationale behind it, namely for the Fractals to serve as a stepping stone towards raids. Rather than treating Fractals as their own thing it’s been treated as a way to facilitate raids. This effectively makes the Fractal content design sub-ordinate to raids. Which is a disconcerting precedent for those of us that do not want to raid especially coupled with the raiding masteries requirement for the experience bar spirit shards. Because after Fractals, what’s the next game mode or basic game mechanic to serve as a way to try and shoo people into raids?

Sabetha.4910:

IndigoSundown.5419:

Sabetha.4910:

IndigoSundown.5419:

Obtena.7952:

SteepledHat.1345:

MashMash.1645:

Why do raiders get this perk?

The answer to this question is every issue in HoT.

The answer to this is in every game ever: There is a something you have to do to get the reward to finishing that something. Maybe people are to accustomed being told that they are winners for just participating, but that’s not how life works or games for that matter. Raiders get this ‘perk’ simply because they have done what is necessary to get it.

I would have thought that Legendary Armor, exclusive access to new prefix Asc. trinkets for months and better access to Asc. gear in general was enough of a perk for the privilege of being given harder content that the raid demographic has been demanding for a long time.

If you’re going to use other games as a defense, name one MMO where leveling is gated behind raids. The Mastery system is a leveling stand-in. So is Shards.

Also, “It’s that way because our beloved overlord ANet has decreed it be so” is a kitten poor defense. If that were the answer to every issue, then there would never have been raids in GW2.

Raider, 158 mastery points, haven’t finished the Nuhoch mastery, don’t get spirit shards. Still not kicking a fuss about it because it’s a pointless thing to be mad about. Yawn.

Next.

Bully for you. I don’t actually give a rat’s kitten about shards, either. What I don’t like is the move from wide-open progression to restrictive progression.

Next.

Only restrictive if you insist on it being so. Suit yourself. I don’t really care about your plight. I’ll care perhaps when you complain about something worth crying over.

If you don’t care, then why do you bother to waste energy posting in such a rude manner? Perhaps you simply enjoy being rude?

No I think you are reading too much between the lines. The comment on reddit was more meant as :
“We have a difficulty scale in the game but the steps are not equally distributed. We find there is a huge gap between Fractals and raid. We would like to use our Fractal “scalability” to offer players, who find Fractals too easy and want challenging content but don’t want to get into raids, a suitable spot in term of challenge. This is our view on the expandability of FOTM: finding the right challenge for every players".

It is actually how they want to not force people to do raid to feel challenged.

Ranael.6423:

No I think you are reading too much between the lines. The comment on reddit was more meant as :
“We have a difficulty scale in the game but the steps are not equally distributed. We find there is a huge gap between Fractals and raid. We would like to use our Fractal “scalability” to offer players, who find Fractals too easy and want challenging content but don’t want to get into raids, a suitable spot in term of challenge. This is our view on the expandability of FOTM: finding the right challenge for every players".

It is actually how they want to not force people to do raid to feel challenged.

Anet_Ben

There is a problem in Guild Wars in that there is no real stepping stone to raids. A lot of mechanics in Swampland and Chaos Isles are more raid-like now because we want top tier fractal players to be exposed to more difficult encounters.

The statement isn’t “there’s no scalability of difficulty between fractals and raids,” nor is it, “we want to offer difficult encounters to people who don’t want to raid.” The statement is, “… there is no real stepping stone to raids.” The implication is that the end of the path is raids and Fractals are just a stop on the road to that destination rather than being its own standalone content.

“We want top-tier fractal players to be exposed to more difficult encounters” is the key here. It is not “we want top tier fractals player to be ready to go in raid because it is our true end game content”…

But whatever, English is not my native language and I’m too much an optimistic person so you may be as right as I am.

Ranael.6423:

“We want top-tier fractal players to be exposed to more difficult encounters” is the key here. It is not “we want top tier fractals player to be ready to go in raid because it is our true end game content”…

It’s the context. It was strongly suggested that the reason they wanted top tier fractal players to be exposed to more difficult encounters was to create those stepping stones to raids. It wasn’t done for Fractal’s sake.

While the escort event is very easy, there’s usually very little people with masteries willing to spend their time with randoms in order to do the encounter in a less organized fashion. As well.

While the encounter is entirely possible with a pug of fairly random professions, I only very rarely see people putting up an open escort, and more often, putting up the escort encounter with LI requirements of up to 100.

But then it’s als not that odd that you don’t see much help regarding this. The encounter is in the 3rd wing, needs someone who did raids before, raids are considered niche content, the community is very phobic towards pugs without requirements and people don’t think they have it what it takes. These are all barriers that make doing that encounter fairly inaccessible. And as a newbie to raiding you most likely wouldn’t actually make an LFG to content which supposedly is “elite” content.

I think it’s one flaw of the mastery system is that when you’re blocked out of certain mastery tracks, all your XP goes to waste, not simply at the end, once you unlocked everything. It’s no secret that people have trouble unlocking all the masteries because they don’t like or want to do certain things.

Especially if you consider that basically the whole system is (or was I suppose) build to give you experience no matter what you do, and as such progress your character no matter what you do, the mastery system is completely a 90 degree turn from that since you need to do certain things in order to progress, rather than the casual progression from 1 to 80.

With mastery points, tracks being locked, and other such obstacles, the progression halts whenever a player finds himself in a position he (feels he) needs to do, and that is fairly frustrating when that happens.

While the system in itself isn’t bad per say, it does do a very bad job of setting up the player with a feeling of not progressing at all. Especially as it’s totally different from previous progression.

So yeah, adding this already psychological “fix” for those who finished all the things, doesn’t fix things for people who are wasting XP in intermediate stages.
I don’t think it’s intended to be something to earn for someone who did all the masteries, and more of a thing to make people feel they are not wasting “valuable” XP.

So yeah, it’s possibly a good idea to add it to intermediate stages as well.

Not that it’s completely necessary, as the spiritshard track was not necessary at all to begin with. But hey, since they implemented it it’s better to implement it for everyone wasting XP, rather than just those who did one raid boss.

Substance E.4852:

Obtena.7952:

SteepledHat.1345:

MashMash.1645:

Why do raiders get this perk?

The answer to this question is every issue in HoT.

The answer to this is in every game ever: There is a something you have to do to get the reward to finishing that something. Maybe people are to accustomed being told that they are winners for just participating, but that’s not how life works or games for that matter. Raiders get this ‘perk’ simply because they have done what is necessary to get it.

Nah people are just accustomed to playing a game that didn’t heavily incorporate raids.

If this were a feature of the game at launch then your argument would hold water.

They still are … raids are not heavily incorporated into this game either. It’s not relevant if the feature was from launch or not. Explain to me why it matters if you think that’s true.

Oh, I didn’t know about this. I only clear wing 1 once and stop doing raid completely, kinda boring.

Djinn.9245:

GreyWolf.8670:

Vayne.8563:

Mostly true. You have to kill at least one raid boss. Some people sell raids, or do practice teaching raids. After your first kill you unlock raid masteries and you can train them like any other.

Once all your masteries are completed you again get spirit shards for leveling.

We should not have to pay others for content we paid ArenaNet for.

Exactly, great point.

Not really a great point. You don’t have to do the content, I myself haven’t. You don’t have to pay someone else to do it for you, I again haven’t. I clearly don’t care about doing that content or about spirit shards. If I did.. I’d go kill a raid boss, get it over and done with and go back to never doing it again.
I’ve got no interest in doing this but really.. it’s gw2.. how hard can it be? My guild offers training and clearing raids and I don’t hear about it being impossible content. If I could muster a bit more interest I’d go check it out.

General Health.9678:

Djinn.9245:

GreyWolf.8670:

Vayne.8563:

Mostly true. You have to kill at least one raid boss. Some people sell raids, or do practice teaching raids. After your first kill you unlock raid masteries and you can train them like any other.

Once all your masteries are completed you again get spirit shards for leveling.

We should not have to pay others for content we paid ArenaNet for.

Exactly, great point.

Not really a great point. You don’t have to do the content, I myself haven’t. You don’t have to pay someone else to do it for you, I again haven’t. I clearly don’t care about doing that content or about spirit shards. If I did.. I’d go kill a raid boss, get it over and done with and go back to never doing it again.
I’ve got no interest in doing this but really.. it’s gw2.. how hard can it be? My guild offers training and clearing raids and I don’t hear about it being impossible content. If I could muster a bit more interest I’d go check it out.

If your only answer is “you don’t have to do it”, that’s definitely not a great point. You don’t HAVE to do anything, even play this game. The objection is how the game has gone from being able to get XP for your character by doing anything you want in the game, to not being able to get XP/Spirit Shards unless you follow the very narrow path that Anet has dictated.

Maybe many players don’t mind this lack of choice. Or maybe Spirit Shards aren’t something that they need or want. But going from complete freedom of choice to a single path for progressing my character is not fun game play for me. I prefer choices.

I never have done fractal in the past four years. Ever. Yet I have the Agony Channeler mastery (the 2. in Fractal Attunement mastery line) unlocked because science. Why can I do this and why can’t with the raid mastery?

Djinn.9245:

The objection is how the game has gone from being able to get XP for your character by doing anything you want in the game, to not being able to get XP/Spirit Shards unless you follow the very narrow path that Anet has dictated.

Maybe many players don’t mind this lack of choice. Or maybe Spirit Shards aren’t something that they need or want. But going from complete freedom of choice to a single path for progressing my character is not fun game play for me. I prefer choices.

Apples and oranges, you can’t compare pre-hot to post-hot and add shards.

I’m really unclear whether you’re complaining because this is affecting you or if you’re complaining on behalf of everyone because the wider playerbase doesn’t seem be complaining about this, it’s mentioned in a couple of places and people are either “do a simple raid”, “who cares about shards” or “oh my god this game sucks because anet forces us to raid (or whatever flavour of the month thing it is people suddenly take offence to)”. If you personally need to raid as the last thing to unlock spirit shards and you really, really want shards.. join a guild that offers training raids and just run one. It’s one tiny thing being blown out of all proportion.

Maybe there will be another way to get spirit shards in the future, maybe there’ll even be a need for them in the future.. in the meantime, try raids, might even enjoy them. Chances are if you are already frustrated by the rest of HoT you will not be able to but plenty of people here will show you round the HoT maps if you ask and the metas are really good fun, missing out if you’ve not tried them.

Ayrilana.1396:

Vayne.8563:

Ayrilana.1396:

Zalani.9827:

Ayrilana.1396:

Zalani.9827:

Its not the end of the world but it is pretty bad design to not account for it in this type of game imo.

“I don’t like it” does not equate to “bad design”.

Its bad(or perhaps poor?) design to force people into a game mode they have no interest in when everything else can be completed in the open world. I can see it in games like WoW but It’s not needed in a more casual game like Gw2.

And I never said I don’t like, im actually pretty neutral since I don’t care about spirit shards. I’m merely making a comment on it with how I see it.

Legendary weapons have “forced” players into other game modes since launch. Achievement hunters have been “forced” to do other game modes to maximize their AP count. It is not poor design to have systems that cross over several areas in a game to encourage players to play in those areas no matter how brief it may be in comparison to their usually mode of play.

The escort event is pretty easy. We almost beat it within a couple hours with random players (most had no prior experience with it) with random builds/classes. We easily saw the progression that we were making and would have beaten it within the next few attempts. One of the key things is for players to actually pay attention and to realize that the red rings are bad since the traps kill you. You will need a Mesmer with the the raid masteries, or a few other players, as the tunnel requires a certain mastery.

Okay this is very misleading. I in order to do the escort event you need people to already have raid masteries unlocked. So it’s pretty easy, except for the fact that you have to join a raid group who has already unlocked masteries.

Of course, I didn’t find that out till I tried to do it with my guild tonight. They were not happy.

It’s not misleading. Read the bolded.

What’s misleading is saying it’s easily accomplished, like this is somehow easier than doing a raid boss. It’s difficult, you have to get a group to do it and it sucks. I know cause I tried it with my guild.

Personal preferences aside, if it’s a design choice and not an oversight (and I really think they would have noticed it and addressed it by now, if it were an oversight), it’s inconsistent with the other mastery lines and the vision and statement of intent offered by ANet for raiding content.

ANet stated that regular PvE content and rewards would not be gated behind raiding content. The inability to get regular experience toward regular spirit shards for regular PvE play on a regular HoT map, into perpetuity, without first defeating a raid boss—well, that fits the definition of gating regular PvE content and rewards behind raiding. It just does. By comparison, Fractals masteries are achievable without ever setting foot in Fractals, and while I’m sure it seems like a silly waste of time for those people who don’t do Fractals to level all those up before they can go back to getting spirit shards, it’s at least possible to get there eventually. In HoT, it never will be.

It’s that simple. Good or bad, like it or don’t like it, insult the people who can get the stuff or the ones who can’t (yawn), it just is exactly the kind of thing that ANet published they wouldn’t do with raids. Period. They should fix it or change their claim about what raids are for.

General Health.9678:

Apples and oranges, you can’t compare pre-hot to post-hot and add shards.

Yeah you can.

General Health.9678:

I’m really unclear whether you’re complaining because this is affecting you or if you’re complaining on behalf of everyone because the wider playerbase doesn’t seem be complaining about this, it’s mentioned in a couple of places and people are either “do a simple raid”, “who cares about shards” or “oh my god this game sucks because anet forces us to raid (or whatever flavour of the month thing it is people suddenly take offence to)”. If you personally need to raid as the last thing to unlock spirit shards and you really, really want shards.. join a guild that offers training raids and just run one. It’s one tiny thing being blown out of all proportion.

Well, I doubt the wider playerbase is even aware that this is possible now. I’m only aware that they re-added spirit shards for people who fully completed their masteries because I read the forums, the wider playerbase doesn’t bother (they certainly don’t post). I wonder what percentage of players have fully completed the Masteries? From the players I see when playing the game I doubt it’s that huge.

I read the notes but didn’t notice anything about this in the patch notes at all (which I see now is because it was added in the “Late Notes” section the day after the patch ).

General Health.9678:

Djinn.9245:

The objection is how the game has gone from being able to get XP for your character by doing anything you want in the game, to not being able to get XP/Spirit Shards unless you follow the very narrow path that Anet has dictated.

Maybe many players don’t mind this lack of choice. Or maybe Spirit Shards aren’t something that they need or want. But going from complete freedom of choice to a single path for progressing my character is not fun game play for me. I prefer choices.

Apples and oranges, you can’t compare pre-hot to post-hot and add shards.

I’m really unclear whether you’re complaining because this is affecting you or if you’re complaining on behalf of everyone because the wider playerbase doesn’t seem be complaining about this, it’s mentioned in a couple of places and people are either “do a simple raid”, “who cares about shards” or “oh my god this game sucks because anet forces us to raid (or whatever flavour of the month thing it is people suddenly take offence to)”. If you personally need to raid as the last thing to unlock spirit shards and you really, really want shards.. join a guild that offers training raids and just run one. It’s one tiny thing being blown out of all proportion.

Maybe there will be another way to get spirit shards in the future, maybe there’ll even be a need for them in the future.. in the meantime, try raids, might even enjoy them. Chances are if you are already frustrated by the rest of HoT you will not be able to but plenty of people here will show you round the HoT maps if you ask and the metas are really good fun, missing out if you’ve not tried them.

honestly im not sure how people can hate raids when they clearly never gave them a chance. find a guild. theyll group you up and youll never need to do it again.

sophiewhite.3149:

General Health.9678:

Djinn.9245:

The objection is how the game has gone from being able to get XP for your character by doing anything you want in the game, to not being able to get XP/Spirit Shards unless you follow the very narrow path that Anet has dictated.

Maybe many players don’t mind this lack of choice. Or maybe Spirit Shards aren’t something that they need or want. But going from complete freedom of choice to a single path for progressing my character is not fun game play for me. I prefer choices.

Apples and oranges, you can’t compare pre-hot to post-hot and add shards.

I’m really unclear whether you’re complaining because this is affecting you or if you’re complaining on behalf of everyone because the wider playerbase doesn’t seem be complaining about this, it’s mentioned in a couple of places and people are either “do a simple raid”, “who cares about shards” or “oh my god this game sucks because anet forces us to raid (or whatever flavour of the month thing it is people suddenly take offence to)”. If you personally need to raid as the last thing to unlock spirit shards and you really, really want shards.. join a guild that offers training raids and just run one. It’s one tiny thing being blown out of all proportion.

Maybe there will be another way to get spirit shards in the future, maybe there’ll even be a need for them in the future.. in the meantime, try raids, might even enjoy them. Chances are if you are already frustrated by the rest of HoT you will not be able to but plenty of people here will show you round the HoT maps if you ask and the metas are really good fun, missing out if you’ve not tried them.

honestly im not sure how people can hate raids when they clearly never gave them a chance. find a guild. theyll group you up and youll never need to do it again.

But I have done raids. I don’t hate them, but I don’t love them either. I’d simply rather not spend potentially hours doing something I don’t enjoy. Why would I want that?

General Health.9678:

Djinn.9245:

The objection is how the game has gone from being able to get XP for your character by doing anything you want in the game, to not being able to get XP/Spirit Shards unless you follow the very narrow path that Anet has dictated.

Maybe many players don’t mind this lack of choice. Or maybe Spirit Shards aren’t something that they need or want. But going from complete freedom of choice to a single path for progressing my character is not fun game play for me. I prefer choices.

Apples and oranges, you can’t compare pre-hot to post-hot and add shards.

I’m really unclear whether you’re complaining because this is affecting you or if you’re complaining on behalf of everyone because the wider playerbase doesn’t seem be complaining about this, it’s mentioned in a couple of places and people are either “do a simple raid”, “who cares about shards” or “oh my god this game sucks because anet forces us to raid (or whatever flavour of the month thing it is people suddenly take offence to)”. If you personally need to raid as the last thing to unlock spirit shards and you really, really want shards.. join a guild that offers training raids and just run one. It’s one tiny thing being blown out of all proportion.

Maybe there will be another way to get spirit shards in the future, maybe there’ll even be a need for them in the future.. in the meantime, try raids, might even enjoy them. Chances are if you are already frustrated by the rest of HoT you will not be able to but plenty of people here will show you round the HoT maps if you ask and the metas are really good fun, missing out if you’ve not tried them.

I’m not sure why you’re asking if it affects me personally. World Hunger doesn’t affect me personally but everyone knows it is an issue.

I will explain the issue again. GW2 used to be a game in which I could gain XP for my character in any way I chose: PvP, WvW, Dungeons, Fractals, Crafting, JP, Open-world PvE, etc. I could choose to do all of these things or I could choose only 1. There are people who leveled their character to 80 using ONLY Crafting!

With the introduction of HoT, this has been changed to ONLY getting XP through the Mastery system. I no longer have a choice how I progress my character because there aren’t enough MP in any of the single modes for me to play ONLY how I choose.

You suggest “in the meantime, try raids, might even enjoy them”. I am not a child, I am an adult who knows what I like and doesn’t need “Mommy” Anet telling me to “try brocolli, you might like it”. I play games for enjoyment, not to be dictated how I should “play”.

Djinn.9245:

Going from being able to get XP from doing anything in the game (crafting, PvE, PvP, WvW, Dungeons, Fractals, Raids, etc.) to not being able to get XP at all unless you do very specific things is the definition of restrictive.

I’m guessing you haven’t swung by Spirit Shard since they were updated in with the HoT release. You get spirit shards by doing all of those things, and you don’t have to wait for you character to level anymore!

edit: Woops, didn’t see crafting in there. I guess that was overlooked

Vayne.8563:

Ayrilana.1396:

Vayne.8563:

Ayrilana.1396:

Zalani.9827:

Ayrilana.1396:

Zalani.9827:

Its not the end of the world but it is pretty bad design to not account for it in this type of game imo.

“I don’t like it” does not equate to “bad design”.

Its bad(or perhaps poor?) design to force people into a game mode they have no interest in when everything else can be completed in the open world. I can see it in games like WoW but It’s not needed in a more casual game like Gw2.

And I never said I don’t like, im actually pretty neutral since I don’t care about spirit shards. I’m merely making a comment on it with how I see it.

Legendary weapons have “forced” players into other game modes since launch. Achievement hunters have been “forced” to do other game modes to maximize their AP count. It is not poor design to have systems that cross over several areas in a game to encourage players to play in those areas no matter how brief it may be in comparison to their usually mode of play.

The escort event is pretty easy. We almost beat it within a couple hours with random players (most had no prior experience with it) with random builds/classes. We easily saw the progression that we were making and would have beaten it within the next few attempts. One of the key things is for players to actually pay attention and to realize that the red rings are bad since the traps kill you. You will need a Mesmer with the the raid masteries, or a few other players, as the tunnel requires a certain mastery.

Okay this is very misleading. I in order to do the escort event you need people to already have raid masteries unlocked. So it’s pretty easy, except for the fact that you have to join a raid group who has already unlocked masteries.

Of course, I didn’t find that out till I tried to do it with my guild tonight. They were not happy.

It’s not misleading. Read the bolded.

What’s misleading is saying it’s easily accomplished, like this is somehow easier than doing a raid boss. It’s difficult, you have to get a group to do it and it sucks. I know cause I tried it with my guild.

Your entire response to mine was about the masteries and not about the ease of doing the raid escort. You yourself even said it was easy if you have a group with people that have the masteries.

IndigoSundown.5419:

General Health.9678:

Apples and oranges, you can’t compare pre-hot to post-hot and add shards.

Actually, one can make such comparisons.

At launch, one gained skill points by leveling after 80. Just as with leveling under 80, you gained a point by doing almost anything the game allows players to do. When traits 3.0 debuted, shards replaced skill points as the “level-up” benefit. Again, get one by simply collecting XP, which is really hard to not do. Masteries replaced this system. However, accounts that did not add HoT still “level-up” doing most anything with no gates.

And yes, while I don’t care about shards, I don’t think every tiny reward the game offers has to be gated by specific content. Thankfully, that’s not the case, but it is becoming more and more so over time.

Actually, between the Traits change, and the implementation of Masteries, one got nothing for leveling up. No Spirit Shards, no Hero Points, nothing. I’m not sure why no one remembers this.

So basically what you are saying is, if you are gaining experience while on a mastery track that is at its end-be it complete or not-that excess XP should be converted into spirit shards, yet it isn’t?

If it doesn’t currently work this way because they’ve locked spirit shard gain behind training ALL masteries-including RAID masteries-completely, I cannot say that I agree with that design decision. MMORPG game design shouldn’t be predicated on the expectation that players will be encouraged or motivated to participate in every game mode that the game offers in order to progress. Particularly a game whose stance is “Play your way”.

Bandrell.4357:

So basically what you are saying is, if you are gaining experience while on a mastery track that is at its end-be it complete or not-that excess XP should be converted into spirit shards, yet it isn’t?

If it doesn’t currently work this way because they’ve locked spirit shard gain behind training ALL masteries-including RAID masteries-completely, I cannot say that I agree with that design decision. MMORPG game design shouldn’t be predicated on the expectation that players will be encouraged or motivated to participate in every game mode that the game offers in order to progress. Particularly a game whose stance is “Play your way”.

Ugh, that would be a pain if it worked that way. But no, don’t worry. A year ago they separated spirit shards and XP from each other. They have no relationship.

Since then, people have been wanting something to be done with the XP they were getting once their mastery bar was filled. Anet’s put one thing in place, and people are currently hoping that this can be massaged to cover more players in more situations.

I keep looking for the quote from ANet that says that they intended that only raiders would be able to gain spirit shards by gaining XP in HoT maps.

I am among the last people I know to max out masteries (technically, I still haven’t done it; I just maxed out the xp gain part) and it’s been months since XP mattered to me. I can’t imagine that a couple of weeks or even a month or two is going to make that much of a difference to more than a handful of players.

tl;dr I’m waiting for ANet to respond before getting righteously indignant about whether anything should be gated behind raids (outside of raid skins and masteries, of course).

(I suspect that this is more of a proxy fight about whether legendary armor should have been gated behind raids and that a lot of people don’t really care all that much about spirit shards. “It’s the principle!” (and to be fair, it’s an important principle that ANet probably should do a better job addressing/explaining) ).

Illconceived Was Na.9781:

I keep looking for the quote from ANet that says that they intended that only raiders would be able to gain spirit shards by gaining XP in HoT maps.

I am among the last people I know to max out masteries (technically, I still haven’t done it; I just maxed out the xp gain part) and it’s been months since XP mattered to me. I can’t imagine that a couple of weeks or even a month or two is going to make that much of a difference to more than a handful of players.

tl;dr I’m waiting for ANet to respond before getting righteously indignant about whether anything should be gated behind raids (outside of raid skins and masteries, of course).

(I suspect that this is more of a proxy fight about whether legendary armor should have been gated behind raids and that a lot of people don’t really care all that much about spirit shards. “It’s the principle!” (and to be fair, it’s an important principle that ANet probably should do a better job addressing/explaining) ).

That’s your prerogative. Whether its a matter of deliberate intent or just inattention to detail, they’ve had plenty of time to respond — if they intended to. Fact is, the “uproar” has not reached the epic stage. Since that’s the only thing that’s prompted them to make a statement before, you’re likely to be waiting a long time.

And you’re right about principles. However, the principle I’m concerned with has nothing to do with L. Armor and everything to do with the Mastery System in general. I’m fine with rewards gated behind specific content, but a leveling stand-in should not be one of them. Ommv.

Greener.6204:

Bandrell.4357:

So basically what you are saying is, if you are gaining experience while on a mastery track that is at its end-be it complete or not-that excess XP should be converted into spirit shards, yet it isn’t?

If it doesn’t currently work this way because they’ve locked spirit shard gain behind training ALL masteries-including RAID masteries-completely, I cannot say that I agree with that design decision. MMORPG game design shouldn’t be predicated on the expectation that players will be encouraged or motivated to participate in every game mode that the game offers in order to progress. Particularly a game whose stance is “Play your way”.

Ugh, that would be a pain if it worked that way. But no, don’t worry. A year ago they separated spirit shards and XP from each other. They have no relationship.

Since then, people have been wanting something to be done with the XP they were getting once their mastery bar was filled. Anet’s put one thing in place, and people are currently hoping that this can be massaged to cover more players in more situations.

You apparently are not aware that AFTER you complete ALL Mastery tracks, you go back to gaining Spirit Shards for each “level”. This is actually the entire point of this thread. “They have no relationship” is incorrect.

Vayne.8563:

sophiewhite.3149:

General Health.9678:

Djinn.9245:

The objection is how the game has gone from being able to get XP for your character by doing anything you want in the game, to not being able to get XP/Spirit Shards unless you follow the very narrow path that Anet has dictated.

Maybe many players don’t mind this lack of choice. Or maybe Spirit Shards aren’t something that they need or want. But going from complete freedom of choice to a single path for progressing my character is not fun game play for me. I prefer choices.

Apples and oranges, you can’t compare pre-hot to post-hot and add shards.

I’m really unclear whether you’re complaining because this is affecting you or if you’re complaining on behalf of everyone because the wider playerbase doesn’t seem be complaining about this, it’s mentioned in a couple of places and people are either “do a simple raid”, “who cares about shards” or “oh my god this game sucks because anet forces us to raid (or whatever flavour of the month thing it is people suddenly take offence to)”. If you personally need to raid as the last thing to unlock spirit shards and you really, really want shards.. join a guild that offers training raids and just run one. It’s one tiny thing being blown out of all proportion.

Maybe there will be another way to get spirit shards in the future, maybe there’ll even be a need for them in the future.. in the meantime, try raids, might even enjoy them. Chances are if you are already frustrated by the rest of HoT you will not be able to but plenty of people here will show you round the HoT maps if you ask and the metas are really good fun, missing out if you’ve not tried them.

honestly im not sure how people can hate raids when they clearly never gave them a chance. find a guild. theyll group you up and youll never need to do it again.

But I have done raids. I don’t hate them, but I don’t love them either. I’d simply rather not spend potentially hours doing something I don’t enjoy. Why would I want that?

people have commented you only have to do it once though.

Djinn.9245:

Greener.6204:

Bandrell.4357:

So basically what you are saying is, if you are gaining experience while on a mastery track that is at its end-be it complete or not-that excess XP should be converted into spirit shards, yet it isn’t?

If it doesn’t currently work this way because they’ve locked spirit shard gain behind training ALL masteries-including RAID masteries-completely, I cannot say that I agree with that design decision. MMORPG game design shouldn’t be predicated on the expectation that players will be encouraged or motivated to participate in every game mode that the game offers in order to progress. Particularly a game whose stance is “Play your way”.

Ugh, that would be a pain if it worked that way. But no, don’t worry. A year ago they separated spirit shards and XP from each other. They have no relationship.

Since then, people have been wanting something to be done with the XP they were getting once their mastery bar was filled. Anet’s put one thing in place, and people are currently hoping that this can be massaged to cover more players in more situations.

You apparently are not aware that AFTER you complete ALL Mastery tracks, you go back to gaining Spirit Shards for each “level”. This is actually the entire point of this thread. “They have no relationship” is incorrect.

I’m more than aware of the changes. The main problem that the poster was facing was that a lot of people conflate spirit shards and experience. This is a mistake that I see you made above, and I tried to correct it there.

Anet purposefully removed the relationship between spirit shards and experience over a year ago. They did this to encourage people to play the game how they wished, and still get rewarded for it. Since WvW and PvP have their own leveling systems, players would not have been able to receive spirit shards from the PvE levels. Now everyone has access to them simply by playing the game style they prefer.

Since then, as I say in what you quoted, they’ve gone and added rewards for people who have completed masteries, which is what people have been clamoring for. Is it currently a perfect system? Of course not. Are people looking for it to be improved? Of course. Imagine how amazingly this could be expanded? If you don’t need spirit shards, could you perhaps choose mystic coins? Or maybe you’d prefer a tome of knowledge?

My response to the poster was to alleviate their concerns that a system was broken, and explain to them that what they’re seeing is a new system being brought on board.

Edited for clarity’s sake

IndigoSundown.5419:

Masteries have failed their stated purpose as a level-cap stand-in. Leveling in MMO’s has always been an open system. Generally, one can level doing a large number of different things that the MMO offers. GW2 took this a step further than most MMO’s. XP is awarded for doing pretty much anything except playing the TP or standing around chatting. In doing so, GW2 took a step forward in MMO design.

The Mastery System takes a giant step away from the way MMO’s treat leveling. Instead of being a leveling stand-in appealing to all, it is a system aimed at completionists. It does not appeal across the entire range of players in the same way a level cap increase would.

Apparently, Anet feels the need to tie anything and everything to specific game elements. This comes across as an attempt to make those game elements appealing. This is being done more and more as the game ages, even though ANet knows substantial numbers of players have no interest in some content.

It stands to reason that ANet’s current approach to game design is going to be defended by completionists. It also stands to reason that the more ANet ignores players with game-play preferences, the worse it will be for them in the long run. Completionists who love the game ought to consider that before they lambast others for having preferences.

To such players, the developer’s attitude seems to be, “If you don’t like and want to play everything we produce, we don’t care what you want or think.” Of course, it could be that they just don’t think things through or try to see beyond their own love for the game they’ve made. While the latter is understandable, it will often be viewed as the former by those such decisions impact negatively.

I want there to be a new mastery category added for chatting/forum dwelling with the last rank to be Grand Master Trolling.

Vayne.8563:

sophiewhite.3149:

General Health.9678:

Djinn.9245:

The objection is how the game has gone from being able to get XP for your character by doing anything you want in the game, to not being able to get XP/Spirit Shards unless you follow the very narrow path that Anet has dictated.

Maybe many players don’t mind this lack of choice. Or maybe Spirit Shards aren’t something that they need or want. But going from complete freedom of choice to a single path for progressing my character is not fun game play for me. I prefer choices.

Apples and oranges, you can’t compare pre-hot to post-hot and add shards.

I’m really unclear whether you’re complaining because this is affecting you or if you’re complaining on behalf of everyone because the wider playerbase doesn’t seem be complaining about this, it’s mentioned in a couple of places and people are either “do a simple raid”, “who cares about shards” or “oh my god this game sucks because anet forces us to raid (or whatever flavour of the month thing it is people suddenly take offence to)”. If you personally need to raid as the last thing to unlock spirit shards and you really, really want shards.. join a guild that offers training raids and just run one. It’s one tiny thing being blown out of all proportion.

Maybe there will be another way to get spirit shards in the future, maybe there’ll even be a need for them in the future.. in the meantime, try raids, might even enjoy them. Chances are if you are already frustrated by the rest of HoT you will not be able to but plenty of people here will show you round the HoT maps if you ask and the metas are really good fun, missing out if you’ve not tried them.

honestly im not sure how people can hate raids when they clearly never gave them a chance. find a guild. theyll group you up and youll never need to do it again.

But I have done raids. I don’t hate them, but I don’t love them either. I’d simply rather not spend potentially hours doing something I don’t enjoy. Why would I want that?

^this, I don’t have the game tike to wast it doing something I might not enjoy, I’ve done raids on other games and I didn’t really enjoy them, they all felt the same. From the videos of the fights I’ve seen, they look like every other raid boss fight ever, so not going to waist my time.

As for spirit shard’s, I’ve got way more than I’ll use anytime soon. But I do feel people have a point about raid or any other “unwanted” masterys stopping people getting shards.

Greener.6204:

Djinn.9245:

Greener.6204:

Bandrell.4357:

So basically what you are saying is, if you are gaining experience while on a mastery track that is at its end-be it complete or not-that excess XP should be converted into spirit shards, yet it isn’t?

If it doesn’t currently work this way because they’ve locked spirit shard gain behind training ALL masteries-including RAID masteries-completely, I cannot say that I agree with that design decision. MMORPG game design shouldn’t be predicated on the expectation that players will be encouraged or motivated to participate in every game mode that the game offers in order to progress. Particularly a game whose stance is “Play your way”.

Ugh, that would be a pain if it worked that way. But no, don’t worry. A year ago they separated spirit shards and XP from each other. They have no relationship.

Since then, people have been wanting something to be done with the XP they were getting once their mastery bar was filled. Anet’s put one thing in place, and people are currently hoping that this can be massaged to cover more players in more situations.

You apparently are not aware that AFTER you complete ALL Mastery tracks, you go back to gaining Spirit Shards for each “level”. This is actually the entire point of this thread. “They have no relationship” is incorrect.

I’m more than aware of the changes. The main problem that the poster was facing was that a lot of people conflate spirit shards and experience. This is a mistake that I see you made above, and I tried to correct it there.

Anet purposefully removed the relationship between spirit shards and experience over a year ago. They did this to encourage people to play the game how they wished, and still get rewarded for it. Since WvW and PvP have their own leveling systems, players would not have been able to receive spirit shards from the PvE levels. Now everyone has access to them simply by playing the game style they prefer.

Since then, as I say in what you quoted, they’ve gone and added rewards for people who have completed masteries, which is what people have been clamoring for. Is it currently a perfect system? Of course not. Are people looking for it to be improved? Of course. Imagine how amazingly this could be expanded? If you don’t need spirit shards, could you perhaps choose mystic coins? Or maybe you’d prefer a tome of knowledge?

My response to the poster was to alleviate their concerns that a system was broken, and explain to them that what they’re seeing is a new system being brought on board.

Edited for clarity’s sake

Maybe there is some confusion between what you are referring to ‘experience’ and what previously was leveling up/gaining Skill Points. ArenaNet did separate Hero Points from Spirit Shards, and from that time until Heart of Thorns was released we gained nothing whatsoever each time we leveled up again after L80. Thus, after ‘leveling up’ Mastery Tracks, we acquired nothing at all, again, until this recent patch.

Now, those that have finished all Mastery Tracks (XP accrued and Mastery Points spent) for a region can gain Spirit Shards. Those that are concerned feel having to unlock the Raid track by raiding is unfair, as no one was required to set foot in a Fractal to unlock the Fractal track (just as an example).

Considering that gaining 1 Spirit Shard every few days on top of the 20-50 one accrues in the course of acquiring enough XP to fill a track seems negligible, I’m not sure what the outcry is over Spirit Shards, but I understand the principle behind it.