Guild Wars 2

Tabootrinket.2631:

Labjax.2465:

BloodyNine.7504:

I think maybe it is because I am newer to this game. But none of this surprises me. The game is F2P. They have to make money somehow. These people don’t work for free. The astronomical costs of items in games is by design. Why pretend otherwise? They NEED you to pull out your credit card and buy gems or the game goes away. Purchases of the game will only go so far. To keep it running there needs to be a revenue stream.

I can understand why people are upset. To be honest I would rather have no gem store, pay a subscription and have everything earn able in game. But that isn’t happening.

This doesn’t excuse the the obvious problems stated in many other posts. I am just saying, I understand why they do this. Not just why, but why the have to do it.

Basically, a number of people are abnormally mad at anything Gem Store related because they are tee’d off about the general direction of the game, HoT (the expansion), and, in some cases, more recent Gem Store practices (such as stuffing desirable items inside of “packs” and making them only purchasable through those packs with a bunch of assorted crap that no one wants, or releasing gliders as a new feature and then making 1% of the glider skins available through actual gameplay and 99% Gem Store purchase).

In other words, people are looking for more reasons to hate on the Gem Store because they’re already mad at it and the game. It’s understandable frankly. It’s not entirely logical half the time, but it’s understandable.

So here I’m going to put some logic in it.
Your character gets like 2 new skin sets by playing HoT. The rest is through the gemstore. Every week, we get to see new outfits going through the gemstore, while not seeing any new skin unlockable by playing the expansion.
There’s a clear overwhelming balance issue here.

Now people are going with a “but it’s f2p” as an argument. The thing is, this expansion is sold the same price as the core game when it came out. But the core game came with a lot more skins than this. The core game came with a lot more maps than this.

Yeah, you’ll come back by saying, “the expansion provides whole new mechanism which is a lot of work etc”. Well I agree. But they could at least provide at least a satisfying amount of new gear set so we could further customize our character.

And then you’ll say “They didn’t have time to create many new gear skins because they focused on providing actual gameplay”… well they have time to create those outfits every week.
“But it’s f2p” uuuuuhh…

This post is like 300% more logical than any of the white knight irrational blind defender of Anet.

We question about the lack of armor skins from HoT, and Anet answers it through excessive Gem Store sales RIGHT AFTER HoT launch, meaning they move all the potential armors/gliders they could have been put into HoT and move them into Gem Store.

There are 2 possibilities as to why this could happen:

1. They already created those skins during HoT production, and later choose to remove them from HoT and repackaging them as dlc in Gem Store.

2. They’re able to generate new skins at a weekly base, but choose not to put that resource into HoT category of new skins, and making the HoT skins extremely minimal.

To further proven my point, you’re only able to get the default glider from the entire HoT contents, because they remove all of them from HoT and make them all into Gem Store.

Vayne.8563:

Tabootrinket.2631:

Labjax.2465:

BloodyNine.7504:

I think maybe it is because I am newer to this game. But none of this surprises me. The game is F2P. They have to make money somehow. These people don’t work for free. The astronomical costs of items in games is by design. Why pretend otherwise? They NEED you to pull out your credit card and buy gems or the game goes away. Purchases of the game will only go so far. To keep it running there needs to be a revenue stream.

I can understand why people are upset. To be honest I would rather have no gem store, pay a subscription and have everything earn able in game. But that isn’t happening.

This doesn’t excuse the the obvious problems stated in many other posts. I am just saying, I understand why they do this. Not just why, but why the have to do it.

Basically, a number of people are abnormally mad at anything Gem Store related because they are tee’d off about the general direction of the game, HoT (the expansion), and, in some cases, more recent Gem Store practices (such as stuffing desirable items inside of “packs” and making them only purchasable through those packs with a bunch of assorted crap that no one wants, or releasing gliders as a new feature and then making 1% of the glider skins available through actual gameplay and 99% Gem Store purchase).

In other words, people are looking for more reasons to hate on the Gem Store because they’re already mad at it and the game. It’s understandable frankly. It’s not entirely logical half the time, but it’s understandable.

So here I’m going to put some logic in it.
Your character gets like 2 new skin sets by playing HoT. The rest is through the gemstore. Every week, we get to see new outfits going through the gemstore, while not seeing any new skin unlockable by playing the expansion.
There’s a clear overwhelming balance issue here.

Now people are going with a “but it’s f2p” as an argument. The thing is, this expansion is sold the same price as the core game when it came out. But the core game came with a lot more skins than this. The core game came with a lot more maps than this.

Yeah, you’ll come back by saying, “the expansion provides whole new mechanism which is a lot of work etc”. Well I agree. But they could at least provide at least a satisfying amount of new gear set so we could further customize our character.

And then you’ll say “They didn’t have time to create many new gear skins because they focused on providing actual gameplay”… well they have time to create those outfits every week.
“But it’s f2p” uuuuuhh…

Outfits aren’t skins, end of argument. Outfits can’t be mixed and matched. They’re inferior to skins.

Yet we have those outfits that can even dye the animation part like flame, with some of them looking way better than armor skins.

They’re not inferior, they’re just easier to make.

Aomine.5012:

Vayne.8563:

Tabootrinket.2631:

Labjax.2465:

BloodyNine.7504:

I think maybe it is because I am newer to this game. But none of this surprises me. The game is F2P. They have to make money somehow. These people don’t work for free. The astronomical costs of items in games is by design. Why pretend otherwise? They NEED you to pull out your credit card and buy gems or the game goes away. Purchases of the game will only go so far. To keep it running there needs to be a revenue stream.

I can understand why people are upset. To be honest I would rather have no gem store, pay a subscription and have everything earn able in game. But that isn’t happening.

This doesn’t excuse the the obvious problems stated in many other posts. I am just saying, I understand why they do this. Not just why, but why the have to do it.

Basically, a number of people are abnormally mad at anything Gem Store related because they are tee’d off about the general direction of the game, HoT (the expansion), and, in some cases, more recent Gem Store practices (such as stuffing desirable items inside of “packs” and making them only purchasable through those packs with a bunch of assorted crap that no one wants, or releasing gliders as a new feature and then making 1% of the glider skins available through actual gameplay and 99% Gem Store purchase).

In other words, people are looking for more reasons to hate on the Gem Store because they’re already mad at it and the game. It’s understandable frankly. It’s not entirely logical half the time, but it’s understandable.

So here I’m going to put some logic in it.
Your character gets like 2 new skin sets by playing HoT. The rest is through the gemstore. Every week, we get to see new outfits going through the gemstore, while not seeing any new skin unlockable by playing the expansion.
There’s a clear overwhelming balance issue here.

Now people are going with a “but it’s f2p” as an argument. The thing is, this expansion is sold the same price as the core game when it came out. But the core game came with a lot more skins than this. The core game came with a lot more maps than this.

Yeah, you’ll come back by saying, “the expansion provides whole new mechanism which is a lot of work etc”. Well I agree. But they could at least provide at least a satisfying amount of new gear set so we could further customize our character.

And then you’ll say “They didn’t have time to create many new gear skins because they focused on providing actual gameplay”… well they have time to create those outfits every week.
“But it’s f2p” uuuuuhh…

Outfits aren’t skins, end of argument. Outfits can’t be mixed and matched. They’re inferior to skins.

Yet we have those outfits that can even dye the animation part like flame, with some of them looking way better than armor skins.

They’re not inferior, they’re just easier to make.

And they dont cost transmutation charges.

PyrateSilly.4710:

I thought you were leaving the game?

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/hot/Dear-Anet-why-i-leave-the-game/first#post5772370

Oh lol

Wolfric.9380:

As long as the Gemstore dosen´t give combat advantages you can´t get in game with a resonable amount of time spent i am totaly fine.

There’s nothing wrong with a model where IF people want they can spend extra bucks on nice items that don’t give them advantage over others,

however,

if more content that starts to have impact on the way you play is gated behind real money (game nerfs that either transform casual players to hardcore or force them to reach for their wallet) it becomes a problem.

Those who still defend ANet saying they need to make money saying it has no impact on the game are wrong. The course has long been changed and it is slowly becoming P2W.

Either your grind a lot or you spend money, because getting gold has become difficult, dungeons are crippled, HoT content is forced on users, Guild Halls and WvW are a fiasco… I mean, it cannot be more obvious than this.

Is it just me, or does anyone else find it slightly amusing (and a little hypocritical) that some people are complaining about new Gem Store content “after” having spent $100 on the xpac?

You do recall that $50 of the $100 was for gem store stuff, rather than the xpac itself right?

The xpac itself cost $50.

The first $20 of your other $50 was for a gemstore game upgrade worth 2400 gems ($30), everything in that upgrade was most likely created by the Gem Store team.

The remaining $30 of that $50 fee was for 4000 gems (worth $50), which could have purchased both the appearance packs released since HoT came out, without needing to spend a dime.

You’re actually complaining that they are providing you with stuff to buy with the 4000 gems, that you paid extra to get.

Everything sold in the Gem Store AFAIK, has been created by a dedicated Gem Store development team, they are not stealing content developed for other parts of the game, they are releasing the content that they have created specifically for the store.

Kaz.5430:

Everything sold in the Gem Store AFAIK, has been created by a dedicated Gem Store development team, they are not stealing content developed for other parts of the game, they are releasing the content that they have created specifically for the store.

I have no sympathy with the P2W idiocy in this thread but looked at objectively, those items ARE being kept from the game, there’s no intrinsic reason they HAVE to be ‘store exclusives’ even if they were developed by the ‘store’ team.

It’s a business decision to make them exclusive, not a law of physics.

Outfits may be easier to make, but they’re charging $10 for those kitteners.

So frankly igaf about how hard armor skins are to make, those are the only thing worth that much money (assuming they are nice etc.)

I seriously don’t get how people are using “it’seems f2p” as a legitimate argument. Do the first two years and change not count?

vespers.1759:

Outfits may be easier to make, but they’re charging $10 for those kitteners.

So frankly igaf about how hard armor skins are to make, those are the only thing worth that much money (assuming they are nice etc.)

I have to agree, I mean make it so the armor itself is designed to not clip with each other, but mixing and matching should be allowed and if something clips it should be up to the player.

Do you need to buy the stuff from the gem store? No.
Do we already have some nice skins etc in the game from the content? Yes.

So why do you complain? ^^ And btw you can change gold for gems. So no real cash needed.

The price for the expansion includes all the new content that will come in the near future (like LS3 etc etc). So pls stop crying like spoiled kids.

All the stuff that people complain about atm will be fixed. Just give them some time to do it.

warbignime.4610:

OMG Anet added gem store cosmetic that no one need unless they want to. How dare they profit off of their work.

The funny part about all this whining, is that cosmetics take little development effort beyond a couple people in the art department.
Putting in new gem store items doesn’t detract at all from anet’s ability to develop real content, and it certainly doesn’t detract from their ability to fix bugs.

There is zero reason to complain about them adding gem store items, since adding gem store items has zero opportunity cost.

If you don’t like it, vote with your wallet. No company has ever, in the history of gaming, and no company will ever pay any attention what so ever to sarcastic QQ’ing. You’re wasting your time.

YaYa.5879:

I want them to think “kitten , that man must be really rich in real life to spend real money for fake items, i hope he lives near me and is single”.

Excuse me! “I hope SHE lives near me and is single” :P

Dude it’s a store. Store has new items, store has sales. People who add items to the store aren’t the same people who do fractal changes. Seriously 2 very different things. Go work at a start up dev shop.

Just be patient, they said fractal changes coming December, so I have my fingers crossed next week. Even if not that, there’s plenty stuff to do meantime, and Wintersday is coming, yay!

Gimli.9461:

YaYa.5879:

I want them to think “kitten , that man must be really rich in real life to spend real money for fake items, i hope he lives near me and is single”.

Excuse me! “I hope SHE lives near me and is single” :P

Dude it’s a store. Store has new items, store has sales. People who add items to the store aren’t the same people who do fractal changes. Seriously 2 very different things. Go work at a start up dev shop.

Just be patient, they said fractal changes coming December, so I have my fingers crossed next week. Even if not that, there’s plenty stuff to do meantime, and Wintersday is coming, yay!

And this time they’re going to ask you to do that tedious random RNG Jumping puzzle for 200 times for the AP AGAIN…

And maybe ask you to play like 200 matches of snowball that takes 20 hours AGAIN…

And maybe ask you to play 100 matches of Toy Collapser AGAIN.

SOOOO looking forward to that tedious AP grind zzz

Tabootrinket.2631:

So here I’m going to put some logic in it.
Your character gets like 2 new skin sets by playing HoT. The rest is through the gemstore. Every week, we get to see new outfits going through the gemstore, while not seeing any new skin unlockable by playing the expansion.
There’s a clear overwhelming balance issue here.

Now people are going with a “but it’s f2p” as an argument. The thing is, this expansion is sold the same price as the core game when it came out. But the core game came with a lot more skins than this. The core game came with a lot more maps than this.

Yeah, you’ll come back by saying, “the expansion provides whole new mechanism which is a lot of work etc”. Well I agree. But they could at least provide at least a satisfying amount of new gear set so we could further customize our character.

And then you’ll say “They didn’t have time to create many new gear skins because they focused on providing actual gameplay”… well they have time to create those outfits every week.
“But it’s f2p” uuuuuhh…

Naw, I actually agree with you. The imbalance of it is very over-the-top and HoT probably should have been free (or close to it) with how much they are asking for on other stuff.

Nothing about it makes me want to give them money again. Some will read what I said here and think I’m being dramatic over nothing. But the fact is, my standards aren’t really that high when it comes to buying from a company… all I’m looking for is some consistent signs that Anet, as a company, still cares about their individual customers (assuming they ever did).

I would fine with the illusion of them caring, as long as it’s convincing and is supported by consistent efforts toward fairness and an understanding of how customers feel about stuff. Instead, we so far appear to be getting a heck of a lot of radio silence and blanket ignoring of concerns about their practices. I don’t expect them to make a big post about it, mind you. I just expect them to at least pretend to give a kitten or two through their actions, that’s all.

Kaz.5430:

Is it just me, or does anyone else find it slightly amusing (and a little hypocritical) that some people are complaining about new Gem Store content “after” having spent $100 on the xpac?

You do recall that $50 of the $100 was for gem store stuff, rather than the xpac itself right?

The xpac itself cost $50.

The first $20 of your other $50 was for a gemstore game upgrade worth 2400 gems ($30), everything in that upgrade was most likely created by the Gem Store team.

The remaining $30 of that $50 fee was for 4000 gems (worth $50), which could have purchased both the appearance packs released since HoT came out, without needing to spend a dime.

You’re actually complaining that they are providing you with stuff to buy with the 4000 gems, that you paid extra to get.

That argument would make sense if the base expansion ($50) came with the 4k gems. Paying $100 for the 4k gem deal isn’t even saving you money, unless you wanted the doodads from the $75 expansion. In fact, if you didn’t care about the doodads from the $75 deal, IIRC, the $100 deal is basically you buying $50 worth of gems from the store in a bundle with the expansion and saving nothing.

I feel kinda bad that the Exalted gave up their Humanity to protect their land and instead got reduced to being simple Mailmen. XD

YaYa.5879:

WOAW i just saw the new update on the gemstore! That’s awesome. I mean who cares about fractal changes and the fix of stonghold! What we want is to spend more money for items that you can get by paying real money instead of playing the game. Thank god the new awesome winter glider isn’t a reward for the wintersday event: that would mean that we would have to play XD !

No but seriously good job guys keep up the good work. After Paying 45€ for a flawless expension like this, what i want to do is pay more money for cool skins, instead of wining them by playing.
I don’t want people to think “WOAW, what an awesome stuff he has, he must be a good player.”
I want them to think “kitten , that man must be really rich in real life to spend real money for fake items, i hope he lives near me and is single”.

And yes it is still possible to get a glider skin by getting gold, but thank god, no one would spend 90 gold on a glider skin, especially on this well balanced economy!

??????

Not sure what’s wrong with you.
I am very happy about the Gem Store items for the coming Winterday or Seasons in general.
That gives me some reason to spend some of my gold piling up.
An yes, i am doing good in real life but i never ever used the credit card to get the Gem items.
I am also casually and just have 1-3 hours per day to play GW.
I don’t get you people, just make some gold and buy whatever you want from the store. It isn’t really that complicated. 90 gold is like 1 day of fun playing.
I am totally happy to spend it on the Gem Store.

You should use the energy you spend to complain on forums and turn it into energy to actually play the game.

BloodyNine.7504:

I think maybe it is because I am newer to this game. But none of this surprises me. The game is F2P. They have to make money somehow. These people don’t work for free. The astronomical costs of items in games is by design. Why pretend otherwise? They NEED you to pull out your credit card and buy gems or the game goes away. Purchases of the game will only go so far. To keep it running there needs to be a revenue stream.

I can understand why people are upset. To be honest I would rather have no gem store, pay a subscription and have everything earn able in game. But that isn’t happening.

This doesn’t excuse the the obvious problems stated in many other posts. I am just saying, I understand why they do this. Not just why, but why the have to do it.

Free to play? Guess I missed the part where I spent $75 for deluxe edition of the first game and $100 for HoT. So “free”.

Yes

Tattoolady.1934:

The price for the expansion includes all the new content that will come in the near future (like LS3 etc etc). So pls stop crying like spoiled kids.

Question: please link official announcement that there is infact going to be LS3 included for FREE with HoT. I have seen nothing about this what so ever .

Kirschsahne.2081:

It isn’t really that complicated. 90 gold is like 1 day of fun playing.

How are you making 90 g a day? Do you play 18 hours a day and or do you just sit there playing stock simulator? Do tell. Normal people will be lucky to make 5g a day considering that most collectible materials are now 1/2 or less the price they used to be; the min wage was cut in HoT. Yay?

Kirschsahne.2081:

I am totally happy to spend it on the Gem Store.

If GW2 is to be another F2P game then make HoT free then.

At end of day this is supposed to be a BUY TO PLAY MMO where you can earn nice kitten by playing and not in a darned cash shop. You know, like how GW2 used to be.

fixit.7189:

Kirschsahne.2081:

It isn’t really that complicated. 90 gold is like 1 day of fun playing.

How are you making 90 g a day? Do you play 18 hours a day and or do you just sit there playing stock simulator? Do tell. Normal people will be lucky to make 5g a day considering that most collectible materials are now 1/2 or less the price they used to be; the min wage was cut in HoT. Yay?

Do you realize that a Deldrimor Steel Ingot is over 8 gold each ???
If people have trouble to craft a single Deldrimor Ingot per day and struggle to even make 5 Gold they don’t deserve the good stuff or any gold anyways.

Just my 2 cent

You do not make 90 gold ‘a day of fun playing’. Not sure why you are saying such an obvious lies…

The problem with Anet right now, is that there are only gemstore updates, and more than one a week now! They need to add things into the actual game as well.

What I see right now is a lazy developer who focuses on creating an easy to produce content. If I wanted that, I would be playing Candy crush saga. Don’t go easy path EAnet, it leads to the dark side.

Manthas.6234:

What I see right now is a lazy developer who focuses on creating an easy to produce content. If I wanted that, I would be playing Candy crush saga. Don’t go easy path EAnet, it leads to the dark side.

Anyone who thinks the Jungle and the Raid are easy to produce doesn’t know enough about programming. That is all.

Vayne.8563:

Manthas.6234:

What I see right now is a lazy developer who focuses on creating an easy to produce content. If I wanted that, I would be playing Candy crush saga. Don’t go easy path EAnet, it leads to the dark side.

Anyone who thinks the Jungle and the Raid are easy to produce doesn’t know enough about programming. That is all.

This discussion was never about the raids or the jungle, it’s about the cash shop and skins. As some would say, there’s entirely different group of people programming those things. That is all.

Manthas.6234:

Vayne.8563:

Manthas.6234:

What I see right now is a lazy developer who focuses on creating an easy to produce content. If I wanted that, I would be playing Candy crush saga. Don’t go easy path EAnet, it leads to the dark side.

Anyone who thinks the Jungle and the Raid are easy to produce doesn’t know enough about programming. That is all.

This discussion was never about the raids or the jungle, it’s about the cash shop and skins. As some would say, there’s entirely different group of people programming those things. That is all.

Give me a break. Easy to produce CONTENT. And saying if I wanted easy to produce content I’d be playing Candy Crush saga, which implies something other than just cash shop.

If that was your intention you expressed it in a way that pretty much guarantees people will see it wrong.

Edit: At any rate, it’s an economic decision regardless not one based on laziness. If you can produce and sell more outfits faster that’s good for the bottom line.

Vayne.8563:

Manthas.6234:

Vayne.8563:

Manthas.6234:

What I see right now is a lazy developer who focuses on creating an easy to produce content. If I wanted that, I would be playing Candy crush saga. Don’t go easy path EAnet, it leads to the dark side.

Anyone who thinks the Jungle and the Raid are easy to produce doesn’t know enough about programming. That is all.

This discussion was never about the raids or the jungle, it’s about the cash shop and skins. As some would say, there’s entirely different group of people programming those things. That is all.

Give me a break. Easy to produce CONTENT. And saying if I wanted easy to produce content I’d be playing Candy Crush saga, which implies something other than just cash shop.

If that was your intention you expressed it in a way that pretty much guarantees people will see it wrong.

Edit: At any rate, it’s an economic decision regardless not one based on laziness. If you can produce and sell more outfits faster that’s good for the bottom line.

Ok, maybe my expression was wrong and misleading but…
My point is: In 2012 we received GW2. A shining knight. The MMORPG of all mmorps. The Chosen One. Not being sarcastic, this is how I feel.
2015 and we are getting the first expansion, which feels half complete in my opinion. (You can’t just deliver 10 pages of your master thesis on deadline, say that you’ll deliver other parts of the work each two weeks and expect to get a good mark). The skins are just an epitome of how this expansion looks like. At vanilla launch, we received ton of skins, hell, even dungeon had their own armor. With expansion, we got 3 new skins for everyone + 1 for heavies and ton of outfits.
Please , compare 2012 and 2015 and tell me they are not getting lazy. Yes, perhaps this new model with outfits in gemshop is more profitable. But Anet is no longer The Chosen One, its just another game developer.

Vayne.8563:

Anyone who thinks the Jungle and the Raid are easy to produce doesn’t know enough about programming. That is all.

If we take scale into account and compare it to the programming of other MMO’s features, they are doing a lot of standard procedure (e.g. nothing particularly interesting in terms of effort invested) – reusing assets, copy/pasting event design, etc.

In other words… obviously it’s not “easy” in a vacuum. However, if you compare it for scale to other MMOs, it’s not exactly hard either.

Manthas is more or less on the money. A lot of the bread and butter content they put out with HoT is copy/paste caliber of effort. I’m not saying anything against the individual devs who did what they could with the resources they had and the time allotted them, but let’s not obfuscate the point with technicalities of language.

Somewhat unrelated, but also somewhat related, it occurs to me that this game would probably be forgettable as hell without its A+ art team.

Labjax.2465:

Vayne.8563:

Anyone who thinks the Jungle and the Raid are easy to produce doesn’t know enough about programming. That is all.

If we take scale into account and compare it to the programming of other MMO’s features, they are doing a lot of standard procedure (e.g. nothing particularly interesting in terms of effort invested) – reusing assets, copy/pasting event design, etc.

In other words… obviously it’s not “easy” in a vacuum. However, if you compare it for scale to other MMOs, it’s not exactly hard either.

Manthas is more or less on the money. A lot of the bread and butter content they put out with HoT is copy/paste caliber of effort. I’m not saying anything against the individual devs who did what they could with the resources they had and the time allotted them, but let’s not obfuscate the point with technicalities of language.

Somewhat unrelated, but also somewhat related, it occurs to me that this game would probably be forgettable as hell without its A+ art team.

I’ve played a lot of MMOs. Not one or two. A lot. The complexity of these zones, and the events in them dwarfs what most MMOs give you.

Remember that static quests are far easier to program and control. Events that don’t scale, same thing. Adding gliding to the game with updrafts and speed/breaks and layline gliding, that’s complexity.

I think you’re confusing the kind of new zones you get in other games with the same old static quests, with what this game is doing.

Every single zone in this game is harder to create than a typical MMO due to the lack of static quests and scaling. The verticality of the zone is huge as well.

These maps too a very long time to design compared to zones I’ve played in other games. So no, I don’t believe he is right.

Manthas.6234:

Vayne.8563:

Manthas.6234:

Vayne.8563:

Manthas.6234:

What I see right now is a lazy developer who focuses on creating an easy to produce content. If I wanted that, I would be playing Candy crush saga. Don’t go easy path EAnet, it leads to the dark side.

Anyone who thinks the Jungle and the Raid are easy to produce doesn’t know enough about programming. That is all.

This discussion was never about the raids or the jungle, it’s about the cash shop and skins. As some would say, there’s entirely different group of people programming those things. That is all.

Give me a break. Easy to produce CONTENT. And saying if I wanted easy to produce content I’d be playing Candy Crush saga, which implies something other than just cash shop.

If that was your intention you expressed it in a way that pretty much guarantees people will see it wrong.

Edit: At any rate, it’s an economic decision regardless not one based on laziness. If you can produce and sell more outfits faster that’s good for the bottom line.

Ok, maybe my expression was wrong and misleading but…
My point is: In 2012 we received GW2. A shining knight. The MMORPG of all mmorps. The Chosen One. Not being sarcastic, this is how I feel.
2015 and we are getting the first expansion, which feels half complete in my opinion. (You can’t just deliver 10 pages of your master thesis on deadline, say that you’ll deliver other parts of the work each two weeks and expect to get a good mark). The skins are just an epitome of how this expansion looks like. At vanilla launch, we received ton of skins, hell, even dungeon had their own armor. With expansion, we got 3 new skins for everyone + 1 for heavies and ton of outfits.
Please , compare 2012 and 2015 and tell me they are not getting lazy. Yes, perhaps this new model with outfits in gemshop is more profitable. But Anet is no longer The Chosen One, its just another game developer.

It was never the chosen one. We got the first game, with tons and tons of bugs. The TP didn’t work for days. Orr was an absolute mess. In your head it was the chosen one. It was a business from day one and your glamorizing that to say it was more is just that. Glamorizing it.

People had all sorts of complaints in the beginning but it was new and shiny so people ignored stuff. That’s what always happens with new and shiny.

The dungeons, complaints they were not rewarding, which is why Anet upped the dungeon reward. The reward we have for dungeons now is BETTER than the reward at launch, because we get champ bags now and we didn’t back then.

People complained there was no reward to kill a champ even though they were much harder than vets. It was a long time before champ bags were added, because people didn’t feel rewarded.

There were far more broken events in the game at launch than there are now, by an order of magnitude. I said, even back then, the game launched six months to a year too early and it was true back then. No development team ever really gets enough time.

The WvW problems we have today…the existed at launch. The same problems. People complained about Fractal rewards even before the nerf. People complained about the RNG involved in getting precursors all along.

Tell me when this golden age was again?

This has always been a good game and it’s still a good game. But people’s expectations are unrealistic, because it is a business.

Vayne.8563:

I’ve played a lot of MMOs. Not one or two. A lot. The complexity of these zones, and the events in them dwarfs what most MMOs give you.

Remember that static quests are far easier to program and control. Events that don’t scale, same thing. Adding gliding to the game with updrafts and speed/breaks and layline gliding, that’s complexity.

I think you’re confusing the kind of new zones you get in other games with the same old static quests, with what this game is doing.

Every single zone in this game is harder to create than a typical MMO due to the lack of static quests and scaling. The verticality of the zone is huge as well.

These maps too a very long time to design compared to zones I’ve played in other games. So no, I don’t believe he is right.

It’s not really relevant how many MMOs you’ve played. It doesn’t matter whether Anet’s quest system is more complex. If the framework is in place, with the right tools, the copy/pasting is virtually the same. The hard part is in the initial creation of the system, not making new events down the road.

As for verticality, yes, that was one new system and they only did it in the four new zones. Where did I say “zero complexity” though? I said “a lot of,” not 100%.

Frankly, you have no idea how long these maps took to design unless you worked on the expansion start to finish. Nor do you have any idea how long zones in other games took, by comparison, unless you also worked on those games. You can guess and that is it. Acting like your perception of how long it took is fact… is just silly.

Being well-versed in playing MMOs does not make you experienced in how they are made.

Labjax.2465:

Vayne.8563:

I’ve played a lot of MMOs. Not one or two. A lot. The complexity of these zones, and the events in them dwarfs what most MMOs give you.

Remember that static quests are far easier to program and control. Events that don’t scale, same thing. Adding gliding to the game with updrafts and speed/breaks and layline gliding, that’s complexity.

I think you’re confusing the kind of new zones you get in other games with the same old static quests, with what this game is doing.

Every single zone in this game is harder to create than a typical MMO due to the lack of static quests and scaling. The verticality of the zone is huge as well.

These maps too a very long time to design compared to zones I’ve played in other games. So no, I don’t believe he is right.

It’s not really relevant how many MMOs you’ve played. It doesn’t matter whether Anet’s quest system is more complex. If the framework is in place, with the right tools, the copy/pasting is virtually the same. The hard part is in the initial creation of the system, not making new events down the road.

As for verticality, yes, that was one new system and they only did it in the four new zones. Where did I say “zero complexity” though? I said “a lot of,” not 100%.

Frankly, you have no idea how long these maps took to design unless you worked on the expansion start to finish. Nor do you have any idea how long zones in other games took, by comparison, unless you also worked on those games. You can guess and that is it. Acting like your perception of how long it took is fact… is just silly.

Being well-versed in playing MMOs does not make you experienced in how they are made.

No, but I know 300 guys working on a game for a year aren’t doing nothing. That is to say, this would have to be the worst run company in the history of companies if it doesn’t take a long time to create.

These quests aren’t really cut and pasted. They’re hand crafted and it takes more time. They interact with each other and often overlap each other and that takes more time.

This copy paste thing you’re talking about? Not seeing that so much here.

We seriously have to stop this.
5% gem store, 95% game content.
Not other way around.

Dude, you keep on missing the point and adding irrelevant things into discussion doesn’t really help. No one is talking about the bugs, raids, dungeons or champions here. It’s about developers attitude toward its customers. It was The Chosen One because they took the harder path, brought a lot of innovation and no subscription fees. They dreamed big and achieved a lot.
Now, they look like just another company developing f2p game and that is my point.

Manthas.6234:

Dude, you keep on missing the point and adding irrelevant things into discussion doesn’t really help. No one is talking about the bugs, raids, dungeons or champions here. It’s about developers attitude toward its customers. It was The Chosen One because they took the harder path, brought a lot of innovation and no subscription fees. They dreamed big and achieved a lot.
Now, they look like just another company developing f2p game and that is my point.

And they’re still doing that, but your’e just not seeing it because they’ve made some compromises along the way. Do you know when ascended gear was introduced? Only a short time after launch. And people said, right then, right there, Anet went back on their promise.

Before that, guesting was supposed to be in the game. And it didn’t appear at launch. It was delayed for months.

It’s the same company. It’s not a different company. They’re not really doing anything different.

Anet tried to do something that they thought would please the bulk of the user base. They did that to make money. They STILL came out with an expansion that didn’t raise the level cap and didn’t offer a new tier of gear. There is still innovation going on in the way masteries are done. You may not like it, but that doesn’t stop it from being innovation.

You’ve fallen into the trap of saying I like this, so the company is awesome and I don’t like this so the company has lost their edge.

I’ve played, as I’ve said, a lot of MMO expansions but I’ve never played an MMO expansion like Heart of Thorns. It doesn’t mean everyone is going to like it.

The same company innovated with the Living World Season 1 and it was pretty much a disaster and they had to change it. That company told us they wouldn’t make an expansion, they’d move forward with the living world. They are in business to make money and they do so by trying different things and seeing what works and what doesn’t. Because they’re often in new territory.

But people don’t want to forgive them what doesn’t work. They just want to yell that it doesn’t work. You can’t really have innovation without a lot of things not working. That’s not how innovation works. It really is the same company.

You just put Anet on a pedestal in the past, when in reality they were trying to make a game that sells. They did that by making a game they enjoy. Well, I still think they’re doing that. I don’t think they made HoT and thought, people won’t enjoy this. And indeed some people do enjoy it.

So I’m still not sure what you’re on about.

Vayne.8563:

Manthas.6234:

Dude, you keep on missing the point and adding irrelevant things into discussion doesn’t really help. No one is talking about the bugs, raids, dungeons or champions here. It’s about developers attitude toward its customers. It was The Chosen One because they took the harder path, brought a lot of innovation and no subscription fees. They dreamed big and achieved a lot.
Now, they look like just another company developing f2p game and that is my point.

So I’m still not sure what you’re on about.

Thank you for the history lesson, but I’ve been there and seen that
Look, I used to play SWTOR. Nothing too impressive, but hey, its StarWars, so I gladly paid those subscription fees. But then it went f2p and I was like “ok, I paid for the game, maybe they’ll give me some cool stuff”. And all I got was the slap in face. I quit without looking back. It’s all about that slap in the face. If I get invested in the game, I want something in return and not trough cashshop. Right now, I feel a slap incoming.

Manthas.6234:

Vayne.8563:

Manthas.6234:

Dude, you keep on missing the point and adding irrelevant things into discussion doesn’t really help. No one is talking about the bugs, raids, dungeons or champions here. It’s about developers attitude toward its customers. It was The Chosen One because they took the harder path, brought a lot of innovation and no subscription fees. They dreamed big and achieved a lot.
Now, they look like just another company developing f2p game and that is my point.

So I’m still not sure what you’re on about.

Thank you for the history lesson, but I’ve been there and seen that
Look, I used to play SWTOR. Nothing too impressive, but hey, its StarWars, so I gladly paid those subscription fees. But then it went f2p and I was like “ok, I paid for the game, maybe they’ll give me some cool stuff”. And all I got was the slap in face. I quit without looking back. It’s all about that slap in the face. If I get invested in the game, I want something in return and not trough cashshop. Right now, I feel a slap incoming.

No one is going to change your feelings, but that’s all they are…feelings. The expansion is fun for some people and obviously not fun for others.

But the company didn’t go from a shining star to a cash grab. They haven’t really changed that much. Your perception changed.

Vayne.8563:

Manthas.6234:

Vayne.8563:

Manthas.6234:

Dude, you keep on missing the point and adding irrelevant things into discussion doesn’t really help. No one is talking about the bugs, raids, dungeons or champions here. It’s about developers attitude toward its customers. It was The Chosen One because they took the harder path, brought a lot of innovation and no subscription fees. They dreamed big and achieved a lot.
Now, they look like just another company developing f2p game and that is my point.

So I’m still not sure what you’re on about.

Thank you for the history lesson, but I’ve been there and seen that
Look, I used to play SWTOR. Nothing too impressive, but hey, its StarWars, so I gladly paid those subscription fees. But then it went f2p and I was like “ok, I paid for the game, maybe they’ll give me some cool stuff”. And all I got was the slap in face. I quit without looking back. It’s all about that slap in the face. If I get invested in the game, I want something in return and not trough cashshop. Right now, I feel a slap incoming.

No one is going to change your feelings, but that’s all they are…feelings. The expansion is fun for some people and obviously not fun for others.

But the company didn’t go from a shining star to a cash grab. They haven’t really changed that much. Your perception changed.

C’mon, my perception changed and somehow every forum is swarmed by guys like me.

Manthas.6234:

Vayne.8563:

Manthas.6234:

Vayne.8563:

Manthas.6234:

Dude, you keep on missing the point and adding irrelevant things into discussion doesn’t really help. No one is talking about the bugs, raids, dungeons or champions here. It’s about developers attitude toward its customers. It was The Chosen One because they took the harder path, brought a lot of innovation and no subscription fees. They dreamed big and achieved a lot.
Now, they look like just another company developing f2p game and that is my point.

So I’m still not sure what you’re on about.

Thank you for the history lesson, but I’ve been there and seen that
Look, I used to play SWTOR. Nothing too impressive, but hey, its StarWars, so I gladly paid those subscription fees. But then it went f2p and I was like “ok, I paid for the game, maybe they’ll give me some cool stuff”. And all I got was the slap in face. I quit without looking back. It’s all about that slap in the face. If I get invested in the game, I want something in return and not trough cashshop. Right now, I feel a slap incoming.

No one is going to change your feelings, but that’s all they are…feelings. The expansion is fun for some people and obviously not fun for others.

But the company didn’t go from a shining star to a cash grab. They haven’t really changed that much. Your perception changed.

C’mon, my perception changed and somehow every forum is swarmed by guys like me.

Your perception has changed. People were saying what you’re saying 2 months after this game launched. Doesn’t that tell you anything?

Of ocurse Anet is a business. Of course they made this game to make money. Which doesn’t mean they’re sitting in a room saying let’s make a game that’s not fun that people hate. That’s not even a thought process.

They are making a game they think will be fun and in this case, it wasn’t well received by a portion of the community.

But then, two months out from the launch of the original game, there were people leaving in droves because they felt like they had nothing to do.

Everything in this sort of business has to be a compromise, because different factions want different things.

When the game launched, the supported your play style so you perceived them as a shining beacon of gameness. Are you suggesting in two months a sinister virus invaded the Seattle water supply and the company morphed into the evil empire? Because that doesn’t sound plausible to me.

It sounds more plausible that they were this way all the time and you were not looking closely enough.

Companies need to compromise sometimes, and they need to make money. These aren’t dirty words. These are facts of life. Now, in this competitive environment, it’s particularly important.

So Anet did make some compromises, not because they don’t care about you or the game. Because they had to. That’s the business reality.

Your personal feelings aside, I don’t think they changed as much as you think.

Ok, but you are forgetting one thing – expansion. Expansion came and as you said “it wasn’t well received by a portion of the community”. Why? I don’t really have the right answer, but in my opinion, it was the lack of stuff. They have some stuff, some little things, which would make people more satisfied. But no, you have to open your wallet again to get them and I find this insulting.

Manthas.6234:

Ok, but you are forgetting one thing – expansion. Expansion came and as you said “it wasn’t well received by a portion of the community”. Why? I don’t really have the right answer, but in my opinion, it was the lack of stuff. They have some stuff, some little things, which would make people more satisfied. But no, you have to open your wallet again to get them and I find this insulting.

Well, I think people tend to see only what’s in front of their face. This is less just an expansion in the traditional sense of the word, and more of an expansion/season pass. What if Anet says, okay we’re going to be starting Living Story Season 3 soon (which I believe will happen). Then you’ve bought the expansion and you’re getting that. There’ll be more raids coming too. The WvW changes are coming too. There’s still stuff coming, just like when the game came out and guesting wasn’t in the game.

I think the story now is better than the personal story that originally came with the game. The way the story is being told has improved. I think the wardrobe now is better than the way it was when the game launched. The lack of culling. The new combat mode. The changes to the crafting UI. The changes to squads. The changes to Fractals. Aside from rewards, which they’re changing, I consider this to be a great change for casual players.

The point is, yes, you had to pay for an expansion, and you are getting an expansion. But Guild Wars 1 had costumes too. Long after it stopped coming out with armor sets, it came out with costumes. Quite a few of them. Whatever armor was in the game was in the game, and only costumes in the cash shop were coming out. You may not remember this but I do.

And I’m still having fun with the expansion. It’s probably not great to run around by yourself, but with friends, it’s a blast. You can get a lot done, have some laughs, get some loot and enjoy the game. It certainly seems to work that way in my guild. Most people are in fact, quite happy with this expansion, and yes, we’re a casual guild.

As a guild we’ve tried the raid once. Didn’t get all that far, but you know that’s us. A small group of people probably will try the raid, but most of the guild will never set food in there. That doesn’t mean those people aren’t having fun.

The cash shop, it’s a necessary evil in this day and age. When you look at the competition, something like WoW, they have millions of players each paying $15 a month. And they charge for the expansion. And they have a cash shop.

Anet isn’t a 50 person company anymore it’s a 300 person company and those people do have to get paid. The cash shop is how that happens.

In the end, you can either live with it, or not live with it, but it’s not likely to change. All MMOs have something that they do to make money. They’re either pay to win, pay to have this specific content, pay for things that we say are convenience but that you really need, or offfer “optional” subscrptions, or offer subs. That’s how the industry works, and it is very competitive.

I’ve accepted that. Not everyone will but I don’t see how that will stop the industry from being this way.

So, could we conclude that a company, which is getting bigger and producing less content is actually… getting lazy?
You say it’s just the way industry works and I agree. But you accept that questionable practice, while I close my pocket.
I never said that the game is not fun anymore. What I’m saying is, that I expected more from this company, but that’s probably just the hype talking, right?

Vayne.8563:

Anet isn’t a 50 person company anymore it’s a 300 person company and those people do have to get paid. The cash shop is how that happens.

So 50 people made GW2, which was great, and it took 300 to create the meh that much of HOT is.

I suggest a large-scale deployment (outside Anet) is needed to put things back the way they were.

Kerin.9125:

Vayne.8563:

Anet isn’t a 50 person company anymore it’s a 300 person company and those people do have to get paid. The cash shop is how that happens.

So 50 people made GW2, which was great, and it took 300 to create the meh that much of HOT is.

I suggest a large-scale deployment (outside Anet) is needed to put things back the way they were.

No 50 people made Guild Wars 1.

250 people made Guild Wars 2. Your facts are in error.

Manthas.6234:

So, could we conclude that a company, which is getting bigger and producing less content is actually… getting lazy?
You say it’s just the way industry works and I agree. But you accept that questionable practice, while I close my pocket.
I never said that the game is not fun anymore. What I’m saying is, that I expected more from this company, but that’s probably just the hype talking, right?

They’re producing more than just content. They’ve changed the way the game is moving forward, whether you like that or not.

They’ve added systems, more than I’ve seen in an expansion. Masteries, specializations, combat mode, gliding and all that entails, in fact, the entire game has basically been rebooted and there’s content.

There was new technology created just for revenant skills, Maybe you think that doesn’t take man hours but it does.

By creating this stuff now, moving forward, future expansions should be larger. Anyway you should probably not use words like lazy when you have no idea how hard anyone is working. It’s not only inflammatory but it’s probably not true.

Even if it were true for a small percentage of devs, there are 300 people working at Anet. Are you suggesting they’re all lazy?

Calling people lazy is a lazy thought process.

Vayne.8563:

Manthas.6234:

So, could we conclude that a company, which is getting bigger and producing less content is actually… getting lazy?
You say it’s just the way industry works and I agree. But you accept that questionable practice, while I close my pocket.
I never said that the game is not fun anymore. What I’m saying is, that I expected more from this company, but that’s probably just the hype talking, right?

They’re producing more than just content. They’ve changed the way the game is moving forward, whether you like that or not.

They’ve added systems, more than I’ve seen in an expansion. Masteries, specializations, combat mode, gliding and all that entails, in fact, the entire game has basically been rebooted and there’s content.

There was new technology created just for revenant skills, Maybe you think that doesn’t take man hours but it does.

By creating this stuff now, moving forward, future expansions should be larger. Anyway you should probably not use words like lazy when you have no idea how hard anyone is working. It’s not only inflammatory but it’s probably not true.

Even if it were true for a small percentage of devs, there are 300 people working at Anet. Are you suggesting they’re all lazy?

Calling people lazy is a lazy thought process.

Of course it is always the next expansion that will be bigger and better. Unless of course it isnt. Then im sure it will probably be more ‘systems’ that were added for yet again the next expansion.

With all the content that came with the expansion, I’m glad I only paid $50 for it. The lack of in-game obtainable rewards within HoT is laughable.

Manthas.6234:

So, could we conclude that a company, which is getting bigger and producing less content is actually… getting lazy?
You say it’s just the way industry works and I agree. But you accept that questionable practice, while I close my pocket.

You’re describing what I feel with normal and common. Practices like these may be common, but they aren’t normal.

I love the use of the term, “new technology” used to describe an animation applied to the skill bar for revenant swaps. As if it’s some amazing breathrough or something.

Anyways, someone should develop a plug-in for Chrome that blocks Vayne’s nonsensical forum posts. That’s some “new technology” I could get behind.