Guild Wars 2

Labjax.2465:

IndigoSundown.5419:

Vayne.8563:

I’m not sure it’s necessary to malign the company to critique the game at all.

It’s absolutely unnecessary. It’s either people acting out because it’s the internet and the consequences are trivial, or it’s a bald-faced (and ill-advised) attempt to shame the developer into acting. Either way, it’s rude and uncalled for.

First of all, it’s not really maligning if the person is saying stuff about the company’s practices that they believe to be true.

Second, you pretty much have to criticize the company if you’re going to criticize the game. The company as a whole is what made the game and made the decisions that turned the game into what it is (this is more so relevant for AAA games, with hundreds of employees, less so for 5 person indie teams).

Third, there is a bit of a distinction between developers and company because most devs have very little say in what goes on (which is why I, personally, tend to avoid criticizing developers themselves). But either way, hemming and hawing over the use of the word lazy is extremely idiotic. So what if it’s not entirely respectful? There are more important things in this world to get offended over. Unless you work for Anet, chances are, the developers are not your friends and you know nothing about them. Why defend them over one word in the first place? Just because you like parts of their game?

Just stop and think for a moment how absurd that is. They are adults who are getting paid to do a job. If they were getting harassed and stalked, I would be right there with you defending them. Them getting called lazy as a whole, in a generalized sense, is not worth the blink of an eye in defense, much less an ongoing argument.

I don’t know. Chris Whiteside told us he found it offensive when he still worked for Anet, so I guess maybe it’s offensive.

Now you may not think it’s offensive but he did. He was protective of the team and seemed to think they were hard working. I’m guessing he’d know better than anyone in the company.

It kittened him off and he did write something about it.

So maybe, just maybe it’s offensive even if you don’t find it offensive And since there’s no reason to be offensive, not at all, my crusade is just me being decent.

You know I’d like to ask another question. Instead of defending the use of words like lazy, why are people so resistant to simply speaking to the problems in the game? How does this negatively affect their ability to provide constructive criticism.

Unless someone is trying to be aggressive (if not offensive), why would they not just say you know, I can easily have this conversation without using words that even might be inflammatory.

Seems to me, no one has provided an answer as to why they need to go there, instead of just focusing on what’s bothering them IN GAME.

Labjax.2465:

I don’t know where you get words like “should be left untouched.” I am questioning the act of making a big deal out of one allegedly disrespectful word directed toward the developers, especially considering that much worse is said on these forums near non-stop. You can “touch” what you see as disrespectful all you want, but if you see people who say such stuff as equivalent to a little kid who needs to grow up, then it’s obvious you don’t have the presence of mind to help him grow up in the first place, even if he truly needed to, which is a hypocritically insulting presumption.

I am a big boy /flex /flex !

When some ppl dont listen to reason (other posters) or going in ‘’hurp durp mode’’ , then some1 has to inflict as much damage as posible in the shortest of time , without delering the threads .
Othewise i must create something that is called a ’’dialog’’ … ‘’dualog …’’dialogue’’ and its kinda bothersome and long , in this anime/beer season i am having :P
And most of the time , i cant effect them , when they are hiding behind a screen :P

(Ppl can call the Devs lazy , but i cant call and treat them like kids ?
The badge of hypocrisy is accepeted and worn with honor! :P)

Can the word “lazy” be offensive? Yes. But just as importantly, I think it’s the wrong word for what people really want to say.

The right word, I think, is “ineffective”.

We’ve all been there from time to time. Spend hours playing a single player game, chasing after some big goal, only to lose your progress? Congratulations, you were ineffective. Ever spend all day at work dealing with something, only to have someone above you do something that makes all your work pointless? Again, you’ve been ineffective. Spend all night on a report, only to have the word processing program crash and take your document straight to hell? Once more, you’re ineffective. And it feels pretty awful, right?

We know ANet has some pretty dedicated people working there. And yet, the company’s output seem lacking. Maybe it’s meddling from above, or aiming higher than they can reach, or their iterative process, but something leaves them ineffective when it’s all said and done. It must be ungodly frustrating.

With that in mind, let’s go back to the OP’s topic of gemstore releases vs in-game rewards. Compared to the in-game stuff, the gemstore team probably has a very straight forward goal when they’re given an assignment. There’s very little complexity from outside to derail their work, so it’s only natural that they get more done faster than the people that have to deal with changing requirements and other complexities. And even then, we know that some of their work is simply cast aside. (Anyone remember the 4 paper bag “helms”?)

ANet has a problem, and they do need to address it. But the next time you think that the problem is that they’re lazy, look at the meta events in the four HoT maps and ask yourself: “If this is what they managed to get working in time, how much more was left on the cutting room floor because they simply couldn’t get it in?”

(PS: Yes, I still hate the HoT maps. I’m just willing to admit that a ton of work went into them.)

Vayne.8563:

I don’t know. Chris Whiteside told us he found it offensive when he still worked for Anet, so I guess maybe it’s offensive.

Now you may not think it’s offensive but he did. He was protective of the team and seemed to think they were hard working. I’m guessing he’d know better than anyone in the company.

It kittened him off and he did write something about it.

So maybe, just maybe it’s offensive even if you don’t find it offensive And since there’s no reason to be offensive, not at all, my crusade is just me being decent.

Well clearly Chris Whiteside speaks for all developers and things can be objectively offensive and developers can’t take criticism at all and need people defending them (which is pretty much what you extrapolated there.)

Chris Whiteside was the leader of a pretty big list of people, as far as I know. Of course he’s not gonna take kindly to the implication that his people are lazy. You are not Chris Whiteside though, last I checked.

Your crusade is to protect an imagined group of developers who are offended in your mind. Chris Whiteside isn’t even there anymore.

You know I’d like to ask another question. Instead of defending the use of words like lazy, why are people so resistant to simply speaking to the problems in the game? How does this negatively affect their ability to provide constructive criticism.

I have not defended the use of the word lazy, but since that’s the line of thought you’re going down here, you’re acting like the person who used the word said absolutely nothing else. Regardless, if someone thinks that lazy design is a problem with the game, the word and the criticism go hand in hand. Laziness, when it actually happens (not saying whether I think it has for this game) is something to be criticized for a AAA big-budget product that is sold for money.

Killthehealersffs.8940:

I am a big boy /flex /flex !

When some ppl dont listen to reason (other posters) or going in ‘’hurp durp mode’’ , then some1 has to inflict as much damage as posible in the shortest of time , without delering the threads .
Othewise i must create something that is called a ’’dialog’’ … ‘’dualog …’’dialogue’’ and its kinda bothersome and long , in this anime/beer season i am having :P
And most of the time , i cant effect them , when they are hiding behind a screen :P

(Ppl can call the Devs lazy , but i cant call and treat them like kids ?
The badge of hypocrisy is accepeted and worn with honor! :P)

Don’t forget the first rule of internet forums: What is ignored doesn’t exist.

Or rather, what is ignored exists for such a short period of time that it might as well not exist. The best way to handle a post one doesn’t like is to let it die in the ether. Persistence draws attention though, that is for sure, and, after a while, it becomes hard to ignore.

In other words, Vayne’s “crusade” in this case, has drawn more notice to the use of the word lazy than the guy’s off-hand comment ever would have. If anyone was going to be offended by it, they certainly have more time to have found it and been offended, since the topic of it has stayed alive so long.

You can call people what you want, but that goes both ways, as long as it doesn’t break any forum rules. So it’s like… both or neither, ya know. Lazy and kids, or neither of them. It’s sort of a trap, really. If you condemn the one, then you should be condemning the other, and vice-versa. But I do tend to think that with the exception of things like racial epithets, personal attacks are worse than a vague criticism tossed at a general group.

Labjax.2465:

Don’t forget the first rule of internet forums: What is ignored doesn’t exist.

Or rather, what is ignored exists for such a short period of time that it might as well not exist. The best way to handle a post one doesn’t like is to let it die in the ether. Persistence draws attention though, that is for sure, and, after a while, it becomes hard to ignore.

Oh psychology-sama !

My aim most of the time to ’’shock’’ them so even they forget it , their ’’body’’ warns them that they should be careful for a reason , by logging in the GW2 site , even when i leave

But i failed heavily with Devata , and i am sorry , i was a total jerk ….but i couldnt resist with the ‘’i told them so’’ and the 180 degree flip flop

Haha, I love how people are starting to attack my personality (“grow up, kid”), let the hypocrisy flow trough you. I love how people set themselves the rules on how people should act, apply their own rules on other people and slowly start to break those rules themselves.

Yes, you could say that I am hiding behind the screen, but am I really? They have my real name, my email, my phone number. They could call me anytime and ask “what’s your problem dude?” but they won’t, of course. No, they would rather contact a polite person, talk with fake smiles and ignore the issues. And that’s where my problem is, some people would rather discuss the manners instead of the issues presented. Yes, manners come first but for how long? Vayne has already dropped the ball by contradicting himself, which I find hilarious.

So, do we focus on words used or we focus on the issues? I really don’t give a shot about how developers feel reading my comments (if they read them of course). If you are insulted, but still haven’t got the message, that’s your problem. If people call your work lazy, stop for a second and ask yourself why, because you are clearly doing something wrong. And while you are at it, please, read my very first comment on this thread, its not really that bad. Just an honest opinion and no fake smiles.

Manthas.6234:

Haha, I love how people are starting to attack my personality (“grow up, kid”), let the hypocrisy flow trough you. I love how people set themselves the rules on how people should act, apply their own rules on other people and slowly start to break those rules themselves.

Its the internet , if you dont like it dont read it :P
You call them lazy , and i call you a kiddo :P
You will feel like a developer

Thats life … tough up

Can i see your :
3 Bladed armor sets, 3 guild armor sets, 3 leystone armor sets and 1 mistward armor kiddo ?

Do you have any skills in designing gear ? Can you help them or are you lazy ?

And if you tell us ‘’i am sorry i told them lazy’’ and i simply want ‘’more ingame gear’’ then yeah i i wiont bother you :P

Killthehealersffs.8940:

Manthas.6234:

Haha, I love how people are starting to attack my personality (“grow up, kid”), let the hypocrisy flow trough you. I love how people set themselves the rules on how people should act, apply their own rules on other people and slowly start to break those rules themselves.

Its the internet , if you dont like it dont read it :P
You call them lazy , and i call you a kiddo :P
You will feel like a developer

Thats life

Can i see your :
3 Bladed armor sets, 3 guild armor sets, 3 leystone armor sets and 1 mistward armor kiddo ?

Do you have any skills in designing gear ? Can you help them or are you lazy ?

And if you tell us ‘’i am sorry i told them lazy’’ and i simply want ‘’more ingame gear’’ then yeah i i wiont bother you :P

Oh, god no! Another point missed. Do you think you bother me? Not at all. I criticize people and expect to be criticized. No problem with that. I’m just confused when people use the same tactics on me I’m not allowed to use.

About that armor, yes I have a all the pieces I wanted and a lot of chests unopened. Why I need more? Because I don’t like those sets. If they added like 20 of new sets and I still don’t like them, than yes, it’s my problem, but when it’s only 3 – I don’t really have much choice.

And do I really need to be a gear designer to see the numbers. Lets take heavy class at release: 6 loot, 6 karma, 8 crafted, 3 cultural, 3 order, 8 dungeon, 1 legacy, 1 WvW, 1 guild = 37 sets at release. With expansion I don’t really need much maths, only 4 sets. For the same price. So, you tell me how should I call someone who presents me with ~11% they’ve shown to be able to present.

Tell me a game that have released the same amount of gear with its Baseline Game vs its X-pansion
(GW1 i dont i havent played it , but their gear dont seem so… ‘’must be more detailed’’) .

They worked for 5-6 years creating GW2 and less on the x-pack .
Artists are not used only for gear , they worked for the rest of the departments , like for example helping to create the x-pack + helping with live updates in the same time .
Glassdoor …hectic periods of times … ring a bell ?

Edit : Youy want more gear = fine
But for the money they get (i dont have a dimeto pay them) vs the frree CONTENT updates they did and they will do in the future , i wont let any1 call them lazy …

Edit2: Lord Helseth rules ! (advertisment for his stream :P)

The game took 5-6 years because they were building the engine, designing professions, etc. Not sure why you are comparing that to an expansion…

They had 6 years to develop anything(even the 37 gear) without pressuring of Live Uptades/schedules/X-packs and other bullcrap they must face now

Edit: i hate ‘’sympathy attacks’’ , can we go back into the kiddo and ’’shocks’’ ones ?

Thing is, they chose a business model which didn’t really work. They had to change things, fine. However, now we are getting the same amount of content, only with the price of expansion. Not much of the improvement I’m kind of entitled to, since I, well, paid money.

There is NO character progression in this game. kitten that “horizontal” progression that people talk about. It just doesnt motivate people to play. There is very little to achieve and feel like you’re moving forward. Ascended gear is easy to get and legendary just isnt worth the time for what you get out of it. So what do you do? Move on to something that feels worth playing or buy yourself some shiny skins to stare at and make you feel like the game is worth playing.

Vayne.8563:

Manthas.6234:

Dude, you keep on missing the point and adding irrelevant things into discussion doesn’t really help. No one is talking about the bugs, raids, dungeons or champions here. It’s about developers attitude toward its customers. It was The Chosen One because they took the harder path, brought a lot of innovation and no subscription fees. They dreamed big and achieved a lot.
Now, they look like just another company developing f2p game and that is my point.

And they’re still doing that, but your’e just not seeing it because they’ve made some compromises along the way. Do you know when ascended gear was introduced? Only a short time after launch. And people said, right then, right there, Anet went back on their promise.

Before that, guesting was supposed to be in the game. And it didn’t appear at launch. It was delayed for months.

It’s the same company. It’s not a different company. They’re not really doing anything different.

Anet tried to do something that they thought would please the bulk of the user base. They did that to make money. They STILL came out with an expansion that didn’t raise the level cap and didn’t offer a new tier of gear. There is still innovation going on in the way masteries are done. You may not like it, but that doesn’t stop it from being innovation.

You’ve fallen into the trap of saying I like this, so the company is awesome and I don’t like this so the company has lost their edge.

I’ve played, as I’ve said, a lot of MMO expansions but I’ve never played an MMO expansion like Heart of Thorns. It doesn’t mean everyone is going to like it.

The same company innovated with the Living World Season 1 and it was pretty much a disaster and they had to change it. That company told us they wouldn’t make an expansion, they’d move forward with the living world. They are in business to make money and they do so by trying different things and seeing what works and what doesn’t. Because they’re often in new territory.

But people don’t want to forgive them what doesn’t work. They just want to yell that it doesn’t work. You can’t really have innovation without a lot of things not working. That’s not how innovation works. It really is the same company.

You just put Anet on a pedestal in the past, when in reality they were trying to make a game that sells. They did that by making a game they enjoy. Well, I still think they’re doing that. I don’t think they made HoT and thought, people won’t enjoy this. And indeed some people do enjoy it.

So I’m still not sure what you’re on about.

You are not seeing it. You’ve fallen into the trap of needing to defend everything. You put Anet on a pedestal and cannot see all their flaws.

Regardless of responding to you, I don’t know what you’re on about.

DaShi.1368:

Vayne.8563:

Manthas.6234:

Dude, you keep on missing the point and adding irrelevant things into discussion doesn’t really help. No one is talking about the bugs, raids, dungeons or champions here. It’s about developers attitude toward its customers. It was The Chosen One because they took the harder path, brought a lot of innovation and no subscription fees. They dreamed big and achieved a lot.
Now, they look like just another company developing f2p game and that is my point.

And they’re still doing that, but your’e just not seeing it because they’ve made some compromises along the way. Do you know when ascended gear was introduced? Only a short time after launch. And people said, right then, right there, Anet went back on their promise.

Before that, guesting was supposed to be in the game. And it didn’t appear at launch. It was delayed for months.

It’s the same company. It’s not a different company. They’re not really doing anything different.

Anet tried to do something that they thought would please the bulk of the user base. They did that to make money. They STILL came out with an expansion that didn’t raise the level cap and didn’t offer a new tier of gear. There is still innovation going on in the way masteries are done. You may not like it, but that doesn’t stop it from being innovation.

You’ve fallen into the trap of saying I like this, so the company is awesome and I don’t like this so the company has lost their edge.

I’ve played, as I’ve said, a lot of MMO expansions but I’ve never played an MMO expansion like Heart of Thorns. It doesn’t mean everyone is going to like it.

The same company innovated with the Living World Season 1 and it was pretty much a disaster and they had to change it. That company told us they wouldn’t make an expansion, they’d move forward with the living world. They are in business to make money and they do so by trying different things and seeing what works and what doesn’t. Because they’re often in new territory.

But people don’t want to forgive them what doesn’t work. They just want to yell that it doesn’t work. You can’t really have innovation without a lot of things not working. That’s not how innovation works. It really is the same company.

You just put Anet on a pedestal in the past, when in reality they were trying to make a game that sells. They did that by making a game they enjoy. Well, I still think they’re doing that. I don’t think they made HoT and thought, people won’t enjoy this. And indeed some people do enjoy it.

So I’m still not sure what you’re on about.

You are not seeing it. You’ve fallen into the trap of needing to defend everything. You put Anet on a pedestal and cannot see all their flaws.

Regardless of responding to you, I don’t know what you’re on about.

So you ignore the posts where I disagree with Anet to support your on preconceptions about me? All right then. I’ve agreed with things I don’t like.

You’ve fallen into the trap of judging everything I post through one filter.