Guild Wars 2

latinkuro.7304:

ZudetGambeous.9573:

Faux.1937:

Nope I dont think it is moving that way, GW2 ALWAYS had support builds/rolls.

The game getting harder (maybe) doesnt mean it is still needed, Aegis/blinds/walls for 90% all fights will still be used.

Blinds/Protection boon/Walls/Aegis/Time warp ARE the Support sets for PVE Wvw/pvp is a different monster, but for PvE in order to NOT be forced into a Holy Trinity anet will keep it about the same, better AI and Mechanics doesnt me Trinity.

Those aren’t builds or roles, what you described is utilities. Every full zerker DPS can use blinds/prot/walls/aegis/time warp, there is no build or role required. Those are full dps characters who have the right utilities.

A healing rev will have to spec for healing and wear healing power gear in order to do enough healing for the entire party, that is a role. Currently nothing like that exists, everyone can run full zerker gear and still provide the exact same utility as someone in full nomads gear.

Hopefully we’ll see a similar role develop for tanks where they get a build that gives them tons of taunt and prot and they will benefit from full soliders or nomads gear.

what you described is also WRONG !

those are the traditional style trinity roles which are tied to stats and all that.
utilities ARE part of your build in gw2 it is THE reason zerkers can bring meaningful support…..

This also points to yet another thing trinity lovers do that ticks me off !
trying to implement those trinity style ideas to a game that is vastly different.
if you don’t like how a.net implemented support and you wanna play a trinity style role system go play a trinity based game there problem solved.

I for one like the ideas implemented though they are not perfect they are to me far better than the yee old stuffy trinity roles of getting stuck on one role you either do dps, tank or heal. what a boring crap.

You sound mad.

Are you mad latinkuro.7304?

IndigoSundown.5419:

It’s my hope that ANet will stick to its “healing for others is optional” design. However, I’ve been disappointed more than once about the way they’ve rolled the game since launch. So I’m expecting the worst, and looking to see what else is out there/coming.

I don’t mind the idea of more options to provide healing, if that’s the way someone wants to go. After all, that is possible now. I am concerned that the Ventari legend might be so much more effective at it than the other professions. However, we have not seen the effect of the new core specs yet or whether healing coefficients on the skills of other core professions will be changed.

I would mind the idea that heal others would become mandatory in content. Also, if that much group heal is locked into one profession then making such necessary will make that profession mandatory. I’d view this as a game-breaking (for me) departure from ANet’s original design intent, as well as another thumb in the eye of those who bought the game based on their pre-launch design hype.

I’m with you on this. This continued trend towards the trinity is really making me look for a new game. The introduction of nomad gear, the introduction of taunt, and now this seemingly nearly dedicated healer. This all seems to be going south fast.

ODB.6891:

Bearhugger.4326:

The point is that some people WANT to play a dedicated tank or healer role. It’s not being forced, that’s just how they want to play, and if the game is really supposed to let you play however you want then you should be allowed to play those roles IF YOU WANT. I know a lot of people who said “nope” to GW2 just because it wouldn’t really let them play healers.

It does NOT mean that it has to be mandatory to bring a healer or a tank in the future. It could be better in some fights, while for other fights the zerk meta might be better, and other fights might prefer totally new strategies. There’s a lot of things Arenanet can do here.

You do realize, that the moment it becomes necessary or even preferable to have a healer or a tank, then that becomes a mandatory role in groups? That means forced roles…even if not forced by the game itself…but forced by meta. As it is now, there is literally nothing stopping anyone from clearing any content. What exactly is broken about that? What part of that needs fixing? If you want to roll up into any content with 5 nomads…you can…and you can clear the content. If you want to roll up into any content with 5 zerks…you can…and you can clear the content. If you want to build your character based on healing….have at it. If someone wants to build their character based on all damage…the same applies…not sure why people have a problem with this fairness? This expectation that a group should be forced to accept your play style or choices is pretty ridiculous. Groups are made of players…not AI, and therefore should be free to make their own decisions on who and what they want to group with. This game is about fun…fun is not being forced to reserve group slots because you need a healer or a tank to survive. By the same token that players did not buy this game because of the lack of forced roles…there are lots of players that bought this game because they were not going to be forced into these same roles. The minute I log in and see that I can’t clear content because I have to wait for a tank or healer to join….or that I cannot get a group slot because they need a tank or a healer instead…that’s pretty much the end of me logging in to this game. I’m pretty sure there is a large population of players that feels the same way. Don’t shoot yourself in the foot, ANET, by trying to cater to players who failed to read the original game description or to players who can’t/refuse to adapt to a new game and its mechanics.

Re-read my post. I never said that it should be necessary or preferable. I said that it should be one way to play the game, among many others. From the moment you have several strategies available to you then of course sometimes one will be better than the other for a specific encounter but that’s how it should be. It would be a lot more interesting than zerk meta for 99% of the encounters.

And don’t tell me that it’s impossible because Blizzard (of all MMO developpers!) did it just fine when it introduced heroic scenarios in Mists of Pandaria. In those there were no role restrictions so you could bring whatever you wanted, and guess what? All DPS was not always the most optimized way to go. Bringing a tank or a healer was sometimes more efficient, sometimes not. And if Blizzard could pull this off with a game so deeply rooted in the tank/healer/DPS paradigm then Arenanet can definitely do it too.

Knighthonor.4061:

latinkuro.7304:

ZudetGambeous.9573:

Faux.1937:

Nope I dont think it is moving that way, GW2 ALWAYS had support builds/rolls.

The game getting harder (maybe) doesnt mean it is still needed, Aegis/blinds/walls for 90% all fights will still be used.

Blinds/Protection boon/Walls/Aegis/Time warp ARE the Support sets for PVE Wvw/pvp is a different monster, but for PvE in order to NOT be forced into a Holy Trinity anet will keep it about the same, better AI and Mechanics doesnt me Trinity.

Those aren’t builds or roles, what you described is utilities. Every full zerker DPS can use blinds/prot/walls/aegis/time warp, there is no build or role required. Those are full dps characters who have the right utilities.

A healing rev will have to spec for healing and wear healing power gear in order to do enough healing for the entire party, that is a role. Currently nothing like that exists, everyone can run full zerker gear and still provide the exact same utility as someone in full nomads gear.

Hopefully we’ll see a similar role develop for tanks where they get a build that gives them tons of taunt and prot and they will benefit from full soliders or nomads gear.

what you described is also WRONG !

those are the traditional style trinity roles which are tied to stats and all that.
utilities ARE part of your build in gw2 it is THE reason zerkers can bring meaningful support…..

This also points to yet another thing trinity lovers do that ticks me off !
trying to implement those trinity style ideas to a game that is vastly different.
if you don’t like how a.net implemented support and you wanna play a trinity style role system go play a trinity based game there problem solved.

I for one like the ideas implemented though they are not perfect they are to me far better than the yee old stuffy trinity roles of getting stuck on one role you either do dps, tank or heal. what a boring crap.

You sound mad.

Are you mad latinkuro.7304?

I can understand he was mad…it is irritating for people to buy into a product and then endlessly complain after the fact to have it changed to a different product. It is extremely irritating to the other customers who bought it based on actually researching the product (like a good consumer should). I imagine it is also extremely irritating to the developers of said product…being pressured to change their product around completely because of people who couldn’t be bothered to read/research before purchase.

Bearhugger.4326:

ODB.6891:

Bearhugger.4326:

The point is that some people WANT to play a dedicated tank or healer role. It’s not being forced, that’s just how they want to play, and if the game is really supposed to let you play however you want then you should be allowed to play those roles IF YOU WANT. I know a lot of people who said “nope” to GW2 just because it wouldn’t really let them play healers.

It does NOT mean that it has to be mandatory to bring a healer or a tank in the future. It could be better in some fights, while for other fights the zerk meta might be better, and other fights might prefer totally new strategies. There’s a lot of things Arenanet can do here.

You do realize, that the moment it becomes necessary or even preferable to have a healer or a tank, then that becomes a mandatory role in groups? That means forced roles…even if not forced by the game itself…but forced by meta. As it is now, there is literally nothing stopping anyone from clearing any content. What exactly is broken about that? What part of that needs fixing? If you want to roll up into any content with 5 nomads…you can…and you can clear the content. If you want to roll up into any content with 5 zerks…you can…and you can clear the content. If you want to build your character based on healing….have at it. If someone wants to build their character based on all damage…the same applies…not sure why people have a problem with this fairness? This expectation that a group should be forced to accept your play style or choices is pretty ridiculous. Groups are made of players…not AI, and therefore should be free to make their own decisions on who and what they want to group with. This game is about fun…fun is not being forced to reserve group slots because you need a healer or a tank to survive. By the same token that players did not buy this game because of the lack of forced roles…there are lots of players that bought this game because they were not going to be forced into these same roles. The minute I log in and see that I can’t clear content because I have to wait for a tank or healer to join….or that I cannot get a group slot because they need a tank or a healer instead…that’s pretty much the end of me logging in to this game. I’m pretty sure there is a large population of players that feels the same way. Don’t shoot yourself in the foot, ANET, by trying to cater to players who failed to read the original game description or to players who can’t/refuse to adapt to a new game and its mechanics.

Re-read my post. I never said that it should be necessary or preferable. I said that it should be one way to play the game, among many others. From the moment you have several strategies available to you then of course sometimes one will be better than the other for a specific encounter but that’s how it should be. It would be a lot more interesting than zerk meta for 99% of the encounters.

And don’t tell me that it’s impossible because Blizzard (of all MMO developpers!) did it just fine when it introduced heroic scenarios in Mists of Pandaria. In those there were no role restrictions so you could bring whatever you wanted, and guess what? All DPS was not always the most optimized way to go. Bringing a tank or a healer was sometimes more efficient, sometimes not. And if Blizzard could pull this off with a game so deeply rooted in the tank/healer/DPS paradigm then Arenanet can definitely do it too.

There’s nothing that needs to be re-read. What you are asking for is exceedingly clear and what I said was equally clear. You don’t need to specifically say that it would be necessary or preferable to bring a healer…I said it. I said it because it is a definitely and extremely likely possibility of your suggestion. I have no idea of the validity of what WoW implemented as I left that game behind years ago. This is a different game, with different mechanics, and with different developers…apples and oranges. The fact is, this game does not need dedicated roles. In fact, the developers of this game specifically said they were not going to implement dedicated roles in the pre-launch info.

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/guild-wars-2-has-no-healers-or-tanks

That’s all the information you could possibly need to answer any questions about the game design and intent. This is what we all purchased.

ODB.6891:

There’s nothing that needs to be re-read. What you are asking for is exceedingly clear and what I said was equally clear. You don’t need to specifically say that it would be necessary or preferable to bring a healer…I said it. I said it because it is a definitely and extremely likely possibility of your suggestion. I have no idea of the validity of what WoW implemented as I left that game behind years ago. This is a different game, with different mechanics, and with different developers…apples and oranges. The fact is, this game does not need dedicated roles. In fact, the developers of this game specifically said they were not going to implement dedicated roles in the pre-launch info.

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/guild-wars-2-has-no-healers-or-tanks

That’s all the information you could possibly need to answer any questions about the game design and intent. This is what we all purchased.

Way to post a 2010 article about a design that was quite obviously scrapped long before the first closed beta was even opened. Just the fact that the devs haven’t talked a single time about that design for 2 years after the game’s release is quite obvious they didn’t knew what to do with it.

When they broke the silence on it in an interview, I don’t have the exact quote but they basically said that the point they were trying to achieve with their dungeon design was to let players play however they want, not to ban players from ever doing anything other than DPS. Pretty sure Colin also said something in AngryJoe’s interview about supporting variety of playstyles when asked about the zerk meta.

Looking at the revenant class and the elite specializations revealed so far, it looks like they’re actually throwing a bone to players who are tired of the pure zerk meta and are going to try to encourage a larger variety of play styles. I didn’t think they’d ever go as far as what I saw with the Ventari reveal, but it looks like a healer may actually be a thing in Heart of Thorns.

Honestly, the whole rhetoric of “if you want X you picked the wrong game” won’t bring the game anywhere. Game design documents are not sacred and immutable artifacts and if the game goes in the wrong direction the developers should not be encouraged to sit on their mistakes and do nothing. And it’s pretty obvious that their original group PvE design was not a good idea because it’s the only aspect of the game that hasn’t been copied. WvW has been copied. World events have been copied. The more active combat has been copied. Living World has not been copied as far as I know but ex-WoW lead designer Greg Street has said that episodic content is pretty much what he’d do if he were to make another MMO. But there hasn’t been another game that has tried to copy how GW2 does it’s group PvE. That should be a pretty big hint that something is wrong.

if the trinity ever becomes a thing in gw2, im quitting the game, im in no mood waiting hours for a tank to join, kitten that

Arantheal.7396:

And then there is taunt, the ultimate tank-tool…
And the new break-bars, making cc-spammers viable options in boss-fights…

Smells like raids.
C’mon a-net, it this point we all know that we’re getting instanced content for 10 players or more. Just announce it already.

Ok:

Taunt isn’t quite the tanking tool you seem to think, why does this always have to be repeated?

Also, the break bar MASSIVELY weakens coordinated CC application for several reasons. And we already know that some bosses are going to just be unbreakable.

Bearhugger.4326:

Way to post a 2010 article about a design that was quite obviously scrapped long before the first closed beta was even opened. Just the fact that the devs haven’t talked a single time about that design for 2 years after the game’s release is quite obvious they didn’t knew what to do with it.

When they broke the silence on it in an interview, I don’t have the exact quote but they basically said that the point they were trying to achieve with their dungeon design was to let players play however they want, not to ban players from ever doing anything other than DPS. Pretty sure Colin also said something in AngryJoe’s interview about supporting variety of playstyles when asked about the zerk meta.

Looking at the revenant class and the elite specializations revealed so far, it looks like they’re actually throwing a bone to players who are tired of the pure zerk meta and are going to try to encourage a larger variety of play styles. I didn’t think they’d ever go as far as what I saw with the Ventari reveal, but it looks like a healer may actually be a thing in Heart of Thorns.

Honestly, the whole rhetoric of “if you want X you picked the wrong game” won’t bring the game anywhere. Game design documents are not sacred and immutable artifacts and if the game goes in the wrong direction the developers should not be encouraged to sit on their mistakes and do nothing. And it’s pretty obvious that their original group PvE design was not a good idea because it’s the only aspect of the game that hasn’t been copied. WvW has been copied. World events have been copied. The more active combat has been copied. Living World has not been copied as far as I know but ex-WoW lead designer Greg Street has said that episodic content is pretty much what he’d do if he were to make another MMO. But there hasn’t been another game that has tried to copy how GW2 does it’s group PvE. That should be a pretty big hint that something is wrong.

First, this design intent was clearly not abandoned as there are still no dedicated roles. even the Revenant Ventari legend is still supposed to dps, support, and control…hence why it has a weapon to be used in melee range instead of spamming heals from the back line. This legend is also only 1 of 5 total legends for the Revenant.

Second, players are already playing how they want and that has not and is extremely unlikely to change. If you want to slap on some nomad gear and trait for as much healing as possible…you can do that right now. No one is going to stop you. You can queue up in LFG and either group with people who want to play like that…or try forcing yourself on people who don’t want to play like that. Obviously…one choice is better than the other. I have the same choices when I choose zerk gear. I can choose to join a group that says “all welcome” and suffer though it, or I can join a group that advertises my desired play style and actually enjoy the run. We are already playing how we want…we just aren’t trying to get the developers to force our play style on others…at least I’m not. They have been supporting all play styles since the game launched…hence why you can complete any content in any gear stat combination.

I did not mention any rhetoric about you picking the wrong game…maybe you were referring to a different post. What I am saying is that people need to play the game within its design intent, or just accept that they are doing something less than intended. I’m fully aware that this game is a fluid and changing environment, but I’m also aware of the nature of what I purchased. There’s a difference in them adapting and improving the game…from them completely back peddling on the entire design intent on which they sold the game. The first is expected, the latter is fraudulent.

ODB.6891:

Bearhugger.4326:

Way to post a 2010 article about a design that was quite obviously scrapped long before the first closed beta was even opened. Just the fact that the devs haven’t talked a single time about that design for 2 years after the game’s release is quite obvious they didn’t knew what to do with it.

When they broke the silence on it in an interview, I don’t have the exact quote but they basically said that the point they were trying to achieve with their dungeon design was to let players play however they want, not to ban players from ever doing anything other than DPS. Pretty sure Colin also said something in AngryJoe’s interview about supporting variety of playstyles when asked about the zerk meta.

Looking at the revenant class and the elite specializations revealed so far, it looks like they’re actually throwing a bone to players who are tired of the pure zerk meta and are going to try to encourage a larger variety of play styles. I didn’t think they’d ever go as far as what I saw with the Ventari reveal, but it looks like a healer may actually be a thing in Heart of Thorns.

Honestly, the whole rhetoric of “if you want X you picked the wrong game” won’t bring the game anywhere. Game design documents are not sacred and immutable artifacts and if the game goes in the wrong direction the developers should not be encouraged to sit on their mistakes and do nothing. And it’s pretty obvious that their original group PvE design was not a good idea because it’s the only aspect of the game that hasn’t been copied. WvW has been copied. World events have been copied. The more active combat has been copied. Living World has not been copied as far as I know but ex-WoW lead designer Greg Street has said that episodic content is pretty much what he’d do if he were to make another MMO. But there hasn’t been another game that has tried to copy how GW2 does it’s group PvE. That should be a pretty big hint that something is wrong.

First, this design intent was clearly not abandoned as there are still no dedicated roles. even the Revenant Ventari legend is still supposed to dps, support, and control…hence why it has a weapon to be used in melee range instead of spamming heals from the back line. This legend is also only 1 of 5 total legends for the Revenant.

Second, players are already playing how they want and that has not and is extremely unlikely to change. If you want to slap on some nomad gear and trait for as much healing as possible…you can do that right now. No one is going to stop you. You can queue up in LFG and either group with people who want to play like that…or try forcing yourself on people who don’t want to play like that. Obviously…one choice is better than the other. I have the same choices when I choose zerk gear. I can choose to join a group that says “all welcome” and suffer though it, or I can join a group that advertises my desired play style and actually enjoy the run. We are already playing how we want…we just aren’t trying to get the developers to force our play style on others…at least I’m not. They have been supporting all play styles since the game launched…hence why you can complete any content in any gear stat combination.

I did not mention any rhetoric about you picking the wrong game…maybe you were referring to a different post. What I am saying is that people need to play the game within its design intent, or just accept that they are doing something less than intended. I’m fully aware that this game is a fluid and changing environment, but I’m also aware of the nature of what I purchased. There’s a difference in them adapting and improving the game…from them completely back peddling on the entire design intent on which they sold the game. The first is expected, the latter is fraudulent.

The design intent was to create a game where all playstyles are supported by the content there playing. The problem with how its handled is there is a lack of importance in other playstyles outside of meta, I don’t think the goal should be a classic trinity. but I do think that the game should take a step towards making other gear sets and playstyles more optimal so players can feel a sense of importance in there choices as well.

You can build however you want and play however you want yes your right. The problem is playing those roles is a more negative experiance due to lack of proper scaling, the meta, and really just a lack of importance in those roles.

I can see how a trinity is against the design this game was based on, but something needs to be done to improve overall gameplay experience for all roles across the game.

Wow the logic of some people in this forum is actually on insane levels.

The challenge that Anet took up upon devloping this game was to kill off the holy trinity so that there was no forced roles.
After 2+ years, the zerker meta has shown Anet that no matter how hard a MMORPG tries, the player base will generally prefer optimal builds and ‘meta gameplay’, so actually by not forcing any roles, the playerbase in itself makes DPS centric builds completely mandatory for any PVE group, as the meta isnt about completion, but more about time taken… Whats ironic, is the realisation that it is almost impossible to make any build viable for any content, without expecting the players to take the path of least resistance and thus decrease the amount of challenging fun in the game.

So now, its looking like more diversity is being pushed. THANK GOD. And yea, I am of the camp that raids (in some shape or form) will be also coming to gw2, so therefore I expect new content that demands certain role requirements. And yea, I am a little dissapointed that the initial no trinity dream of anet seems to be slowly and surely dying.

HOWEVER

You basically have a simple choice, let the zerk meta continue so it seems like NO OTHER build but zerk is particulary viable. Or try and develop a new and diverse meta in which players are actively challenged by its content, and a diverse set of builds and players options are not only viable, but almost required to complete the challenge.

Now the beauty of Gw2 is the adapable nature of each class in general, so if Anet do this right, most classes will be able to switch hard roles on the fly not just soft. This means you dont need to wait for specific players to do content, but a group communicating role options and adapting their build to suit the groups demands is actively encouraged.

I dunno maybe its just me… BUT when your trying to make a game FUN, this seriously seems like a no brainer to me.

Parlourbeatflex.5970:

Wow the logic of some people in this forum is actually on insane levels.

The challenge that Anet took up upon devloping this game was to kill off the holy trinity so that there was no forced roles.
After 2+ years, the zerker meta has shown Anet that no matter how hard a MMORPG tries, the player base will generally prefer optimal builds and ‘meta gameplay’, so actually by not forcing any roles, the playerbase in itself makes DPS centric builds completely mandatory for any PVE group, as the meta isnt about completion, but more about time taken… Whats ironic, is the realisation that it is almost impossible to make any build viable for any content, without expecting the players to take the path of least resistance and thus decrease the amount of challenging fun in the game.

So now, its looking like more diversity is being pushed. THANK GOD. And yea, I am of the camp that raids (in some shape or form) will be also coming to gw2, so therefore I expect new content that demands certain role requirements. And yea, I am a little dissapointed that the initial no trinity dream of anet seems to be slowly and surely dying.

HOWEVER

You basically have a simple choice, let the zerk meta continue so it seems like NO OTHER build but zerk is particulary viable. Or try and develop a new and diverse meta in which players are actively challenged by its content, and a diverse set of builds and players options are not only viable, but almost required to complete the challenge.

Now the beauty of Gw2 is the adapable nature of each class in general, so if Anet do this right, most classes will be able to switch hard roles on the fly not just soft. This means you dont need to wait for specific players to do content, but a group communicating role options and adapting their build to suit the groups demands is actively encouraged.

I dunno maybe its just me… BUT when your trying to make a game FUN, this seriously seems like a no brainer to me.

^ this.

We need two things for support and bunking to be viable

1. AIs that go after the SQUISHIER players. that means attacking the DPS glass cannons

2. the ability to block things. We can already body block projectiles, if blocks like guardian mace 3 actually STOPPED an attack from cleaving other people we would be golden.

Parlourbeatflex.5970:

Wow the logic of some people in this forum is actually on insane levels.

The challenge that Anet took up upon devloping this game was to kill off the holy trinity so that there was no forced roles.
After 2+ years, the zerker meta has shown Anet that no matter how hard a MMORPG tries, the player base will generally prefer optimal builds and ‘meta gameplay’, so actually by not forcing any roles, the playerbase in itself makes DPS centric builds completely mandatory for any PVE group, as the meta isnt about completion, but more about time taken… Whats ironic, is the realisation that it is almost impossible to make any build viable for any content, without expecting the players to take the path of least resistance and thus decrease the amount of challenging fun in the game.

So now, its looking like more diversity is being pushed. THANK GOD. And yea, I am of the camp that raids (in some shape or form) will be also coming to gw2, so therefore I expect new content that demands certain role requirements. And yea, I am a little dissapointed that the initial no trinity dream of anet seems to be slowly and surely dying.

HOWEVER

You basically have a simple choice, let the zerk meta continue so it seems like NO OTHER build but zerk is particulary viable. Or try and develop a new and diverse meta in which players are actively challenged by its content, and a diverse set of builds and players options are not only viable, but almost required to complete the challenge.

Now the beauty of Gw2 is the adapable nature of each class in general, so if Anet do this right, most classes will be able to switch hard roles on the fly not just soft. This means you dont need to wait for specific players to do content, but a group communicating role options and adapting their build to suit the groups demands is actively encouraged.

I dunno maybe its just me… BUT when your trying to make a game FUN, this seriously seems like a no brainer to me.

zerk is not a role, its a gear choice. Most Meta builds are not based around max damage, they are based around utility/boon sharing/team support.

there is a large disconnect, because people wear zerk that they have only one role, that is false.

The zerk problem is a flaw in game design. They basically made a flawed gear stat system based on a classic trinity when the gameplay is not.

the roles are support damage and control, stats barely have any effect on control and support.

the current meta is basically about movement/avoidance support and dps. since no stats have much effect on anything but dps, people choose dps gear.

if you want to be support, you wear zerker, and bring skill with fields/finishers aoe aegis protects etc.
if you want to control (though its not that important) you wear zerk and bring CC skills traits
if you want to increase team utility, you wear zerk, and bring invis, reflects, swiftness

so no, its not that the game has no roles/diversity its that none of the diversity has anything to do with gear.
They should just cancel gear, but since they made people invest 100s of hours into ascended, thats fairly unlikely.

phys.7689:

Parlourbeatflex.5970:

Wow the logic of some people in this forum is actually on insane levels.

The challenge that Anet took up upon devloping this game was to kill off the holy trinity so that there was no forced roles.
After 2+ years, the zerker meta has shown Anet that no matter how hard a MMORPG tries, the player base will generally prefer optimal builds and ‘meta gameplay’, so actually by not forcing any roles, the playerbase in itself makes DPS centric builds completely mandatory for any PVE group, as the meta isnt about completion, but more about time taken… Whats ironic, is the realisation that it is almost impossible to make any build viable for any content, without expecting the players to take the path of least resistance and thus decrease the amount of challenging fun in the game.

So now, its looking like more diversity is being pushed. THANK GOD. And yea, I am of the camp that raids (in some shape or form) will be also coming to gw2, so therefore I expect new content that demands certain role requirements. And yea, I am a little dissapointed that the initial no trinity dream of anet seems to be slowly and surely dying.

HOWEVER

You basically have a simple choice, let the zerk meta continue so it seems like NO OTHER build but zerk is particulary viable. Or try and develop a new and diverse meta in which players are actively challenged by its content, and a diverse set of builds and players options are not only viable, but almost required to complete the challenge.

Now the beauty of Gw2 is the adapable nature of each class in general, so if Anet do this right, most classes will be able to switch hard roles on the fly not just soft. This means you dont need to wait for specific players to do content, but a group communicating role options and adapting their build to suit the groups demands is actively encouraged.

I dunno maybe its just me… BUT when your trying to make a game FUN, this seriously seems like a no brainer to me.

zerk is not a role, its a gear choice. Most Meta builds are not based around max damage, they are based around utility/boon sharing/team support.

there is a large disconnect, because people wear zerk that they have only one role, that is false.

The zerk problem is a flaw in game design. They basically made a flawed gear stat system based on a classic trinity when the gameplay is not.

the roles are support damage and control, stats barely have any effect on control and support.

the current meta is basically about movement/avoidance support and dps. since no stats have much effect on anything but dps, people choose dps gear.

if you want to be support, you wear zerker, and bring skill with fields/finishers aoe aegis protects etc.
if you want to control (though its not that important) you wear zerk and bring CC skills traits
if you want to increase team utility, you wear zerk, and bring invis, reflects, swiftness

so no, its not that the game has no roles/diversity its that none of the diversity has anything to do with gear.
They should just cancel gear, but since they made people invest 100s of hours into ascended, thats fairly unlikely.

So based on what you are saying, what would the current pve system be like if support stats like +healing were just as effective to healing output skills as zerk is to dps skills?

Phys is right.

This whole controversy is brought about because people are unwilling to look past the old-style MMO standbys of: (a) different roles are tied to different gear and (b) roles must be static, distinct and dedicated; and because ANet grafted a gear/stat system reminiscent of trinity MMO gear onto a system in which distinctions in what your “role” is varies from encounter to encounter and is based on your profession and trait/skill choices much more than your stats.

The situation is compounded by ANet’s failure with dungeons. Dungeons were intended to be “challenging content for coordinated groups of skilled players.” This was even true at the very start of the game. Dungeons were hard, and were especially unforgiving to (if not undoable by) uncoordinated groups of less-skilled players. However, once the dungeons were learned, the risk in running glass was lessened because everyone knew what to avoid. There have been other issues. The Ferocity change was essentially a nerf to dungeons in which 80’s are down-scaled. No dungeon updates (other than bug fixes and rewards) other than FotM have been seen in 2 years and ~5 months. This leads to a dungeon culture in which dungeon runners are doing the dungeons for the gold (and/or because they’re the only hardish content in the game).

Hopefully, ANet is going to be dealing with the real problems instead of the perceived problems, because dealing with the perceived problems involves selling out the game to the trinity-or-bust crowd — no matter how you slice it.

Knighthonor.4061:

So based on what you are saying, what would the current pve system be like if support stats like +healing were just as effective to healing output skills as zerk is to dps skills?

How do you know that they’re not “just as effective?” I swear, people who make this argument must be thinking, “Hey, I should be able to just take hits, and not use dodge, block, etc. and my healing should keep me up.”

I can solo some champs on a bunker character with high sustain and low damage. I cannot solo the same champs on a glass character. And, vice versa. Well, I used to be able to, back before megaserver when I could find a champ to myself.

I’m going to be interested to see the mountain of complaints in the PvP/WvW forums if the Ventari healing is as powerful as people seem to think.

IndigoSundown.5419:

Phys is right.

This whole controversy is brought about because people are unwilling to look past the old-style MMO standbys of: (a) different roles are tied to different gear and (b) roles must be static, distinct and dedicated; and because ANet grafted a gear/stat system reminiscent of trinity MMO gear onto a system in which distinctions in what your “role” is varies from encounter to encounter and is based on your profession and trait/skill choices much more than your stats.

The situation is compounded by ANet’s failure with dungeons. Dungeons were intended to be “challenging content for coordinated groups of skilled players.” This was even true at the very start of the game. Dungeons were hard, and were especially unforgiving to (if not undoable by) uncoordinated groups of less-skilled players. However, once the dungeons were learned, the risk in running glass was lessened because everyone knew what to avoid. There have been other issues. The Ferocity change was essentially a nerf to dungeons in which 80’s are down-scaled. No dungeon updates (other than bug fixes and rewards) other than FotM have been seen in 2 years and ~5 months. This leads to a dungeon culture in which dungeon runners are doing the dungeons for the gold (and/or because they’re the only hardish content in the game).

Hopefully, ANet is going to be dealing with the real problems instead of the perceived problems, because dealing with the perceived problems involves selling out the game to the trinity-or-bust crowd — no matter how you slice it.

So how would you have changed the gear stats to work?

Knighthonor.4061:

IndigoSundown.5419:

Phys is right.

This whole controversy is brought about because people are unwilling to look past the old-style MMO standbys of: (a) different roles are tied to different gear and (b) roles must be static, distinct and dedicated; and because ANet grafted a gear/stat system reminiscent of trinity MMO gear onto a system in which distinctions in what your “role” is varies from encounter to encounter and is based on your profession and trait/skill choices much more than your stats.

The situation is compounded by ANet’s failure with dungeons. Dungeons were intended to be “challenging content for coordinated groups of skilled players.” This was even true at the very start of the game. Dungeons were hard, and were especially unforgiving to (if not undoable by) uncoordinated groups of less-skilled players. However, once the dungeons were learned, the risk in running glass was lessened because everyone knew what to avoid. There have been other issues. The Ferocity change was essentially a nerf to dungeons in which 80’s are down-scaled. No dungeon updates (other than bug fixes and rewards) other than FotM have been seen in 2 years and ~5 months. This leads to a dungeon culture in which dungeon runners are doing the dungeons for the gold (and/or because they’re the only hardish content in the game).

Hopefully, ANet is going to be dealing with the real problems instead of the perceived problems, because dealing with the perceived problems involves selling out the game to the trinity-or-bust crowd — no matter how you slice it.

So how would you have changed the gear stats to work?

It’s too late for that ship, but I would have put very few stats on gear — basically an adaptation of the system from GW. Armor could have had defense and been a holder for runes. Weapons would have their damage plus a Sigil slot.

IndigoSundown.5419:

Knighthonor.4061:

IndigoSundown.5419:

Phys is right.

This whole controversy is brought about because people are unwilling to look past the old-style MMO standbys of: (a) different roles are tied to different gear and (b) roles must be static, distinct and dedicated; and because ANet grafted a gear/stat system reminiscent of trinity MMO gear onto a system in which distinctions in what your “role” is varies from encounter to encounter and is based on your profession and trait/skill choices much more than your stats.

The situation is compounded by ANet’s failure with dungeons. Dungeons were intended to be “challenging content for coordinated groups of skilled players.” This was even true at the very start of the game. Dungeons were hard, and were especially unforgiving to (if not undoable by) uncoordinated groups of less-skilled players. However, once the dungeons were learned, the risk in running glass was lessened because everyone knew what to avoid. There have been other issues. The Ferocity change was essentially a nerf to dungeons in which 80’s are down-scaled. No dungeon updates (other than bug fixes and rewards) other than FotM have been seen in 2 years and ~5 months. This leads to a dungeon culture in which dungeon runners are doing the dungeons for the gold (and/or because they’re the only hardish content in the game).

Hopefully, ANet is going to be dealing with the real problems instead of the perceived problems, because dealing with the perceived problems involves selling out the game to the trinity-or-bust crowd — no matter how you slice it.

So how would you have changed the gear stats to work?

It’s too late for that ship, but I would have put very few stats on gear — basically an adaptation of the system from GW. Armor could have had defense and been a holder for runes. Weapons would have their damage plus a Sigil slot.

But how exactly would that have made multiple roles equally effective and not just dps? Because thats the problem here.

meeflak.9714:

The design intent was to create a game where all playstyles are supported by the content there playing. The problem with how its handled is there is a lack of importance in other playstyles outside of meta, I don’t think the goal should be a classic trinity. but I do think that the game should take a step towards making other gear sets and playstyles more optimal so players can feel a sense of importance in there choices as well.

You can build however you want and play however you want yes your right. The problem is playing those roles is a more negative experiance due to lack of proper scaling, the meta, and really just a lack of importance in those roles.

I can see how a trinity is against the design this game was based on, but something needs to be done to improve overall gameplay experience for all roles across the game.

Yeah pretty much this.

I don’t think we’ll ever be forced to play with a tank and a healer of this game. I’m actually surprised with how close to a traditional healer the Ventari legend seems to be. (I personally wasn’t asking that much.) Now I’m a bit annoyed that revenant seems to be the only class to get that option.

I think what we’re more likely to see is a game where there are multiple, different approaches to different encounters, and where the best one is not always the same one. If I want to buff up my defense, take the boss’ attention and play with my blocks, invuls and dodges to stay alive then I will be able to do so, and actually be useful. (In some cases it may be optimal to do that than going with 5 zerkers.) But if nobody wants to do that then that’s cool there are other approaches.

I also think that even if they allow you to play a healy or tanky character in PvE then you won’t have to grab the whole package. For example you can bring a tank but if your tank is good with blocks and dodges you won’t absolutely need a healer because he will take 0 damage anyway, or he will take some but he’ll regen it right back. And if you have a healer then a tank might be superfluous. Hence my example with heroic scenarios in MoP because that’s an example of a game that achieved exactly this.

Guild Wars 2 could break the trinity while still allowing you to play tank and healer roles if you want, and then bring even more roles to the table, maybe people even playing multiple roles at once. You could bring one tank no healer, a healer no tank, all DPS, other new roles, etc. and anything reasonable would work. There is so much potential here, they could completely shatter the trinity and replace it with something completely open and refreshing that moves the stalling MMO genre forwards. It’s a shame it took 2 years to see the devs move on this aspect.

Dragon Hunters gives guardians dps and better group tanking and CC for defiance bar breakdown.

mesmers get better support.

Necro get better dps and tanking.

now we wait on the rest.

i assume Warrior and Engineer will get tanking skills for elite spec.

ele to get tank/healing.

ranger to get healing/tanking

thief to get dbs/healing

Revenant getting a dps/tanking elite specialization

Knighthonor.4061:

IndigoSundown.5419:

Knighthonor.4061:

IndigoSundown.5419:

Phys is right.

This whole controversy is brought about because people are unwilling to look past the old-style MMO standbys of: (a) different roles are tied to different gear and (b) roles must be static, distinct and dedicated; and because ANet grafted a gear/stat system reminiscent of trinity MMO gear onto a system in which distinctions in what your “role” is varies from encounter to encounter and is based on your profession and trait/skill choices much more than your stats.

The situation is compounded by ANet’s failure with dungeons. Dungeons were intended to be “challenging content for coordinated groups of skilled players.” This was even true at the very start of the game. Dungeons were hard, and were especially unforgiving to (if not undoable by) uncoordinated groups of less-skilled players. However, once the dungeons were learned, the risk in running glass was lessened because everyone knew what to avoid. There have been other issues. The Ferocity change was essentially a nerf to dungeons in which 80’s are down-scaled. No dungeon updates (other than bug fixes and rewards) other than FotM have been seen in 2 years and ~5 months. This leads to a dungeon culture in which dungeon runners are doing the dungeons for the gold (and/or because they’re the only hardish content in the game).

Hopefully, ANet is going to be dealing with the real problems instead of the perceived problems, because dealing with the perceived problems involves selling out the game to the trinity-or-bust crowd — no matter how you slice it.

So how would you have changed the gear stats to work?

It’s too late for that ship, but I would have put very few stats on gear — basically an adaptation of the system from GW. Armor could have had defense and been a holder for runes. Weapons would have their damage plus a Sigil slot.

But how exactly would that have made multiple roles equally effective and not just dps? Because thats the problem here.

“Just DPS” is a fallacy generated by the failure to think in a different paradigm than “gear and role are the same.” If everyone’s stats were the same, then differences based on profession, weapon, utility and traits would be much more apparent. That’s what’s happening now, it’s just that gear determines whether your passive stats provide defense or offense and people think that makes it that you’re playing a DPS role. If that difference were eliminated, then differences in damage and support would be based on weapon, skill and trait choice.

If that´s really the great game plan, I´m looking forward to this. It will give casuals´ incessant forum complaints a new spin. Shifting from “but I don´t wanna use Zerker”, “I don´t get into Zerker groups” to “ppl r looking only for ventari, ping heal gear”. I will revel in this careful what you wish for-scenario :P

Knighthonor.4061:

IndigoSundown.5419:

Knighthonor.4061:

IndigoSundown.5419:

Phys is right.

This whole controversy is brought about because people are unwilling to look past the old-style MMO standbys of: (a) different roles are tied to different gear and (b) roles must be static, distinct and dedicated; and because ANet grafted a gear/stat system reminiscent of trinity MMO gear onto a system in which distinctions in what your “role” is varies from encounter to encounter and is based on your profession and trait/skill choices much more than your stats.

The situation is compounded by ANet’s failure with dungeons. Dungeons were intended to be “challenging content for coordinated groups of skilled players.” This was even true at the very start of the game. Dungeons were hard, and were especially unforgiving to (if not undoable by) uncoordinated groups of less-skilled players. However, once the dungeons were learned, the risk in running glass was lessened because everyone knew what to avoid. There have been other issues. The Ferocity change was essentially a nerf to dungeons in which 80’s are down-scaled. No dungeon updates (other than bug fixes and rewards) other than FotM have been seen in 2 years and ~5 months. This leads to a dungeon culture in which dungeon runners are doing the dungeons for the gold (and/or because they’re the only hardish content in the game).

Hopefully, ANet is going to be dealing with the real problems instead of the perceived problems, because dealing with the perceived problems involves selling out the game to the trinity-or-bust crowd — no matter how you slice it.

So how would you have changed the gear stats to work?

It’s too late for that ship, but I would have put very few stats on gear — basically an adaptation of the system from GW. Armor could have had defense and been a holder for runes. Weapons would have their damage plus a Sigil slot.

But how exactly would that have made multiple roles equally effective and not just dps? Because thats the problem here.

your role is not dps because you wear zerk.

if you are taking skills/traits to give teamates might, fury, protection. Your primary role isnt damage, its support

if you are taking skills/traits to give group invisibility, solo switch mechanics, provide swiftness, teleports your main role is not dps

if you are takin skills to clear conditions, block attacks, use reflects/projectile destruction provide protection and aegis your main role is not dps.

the highest dps proffessions from what i hear are staff ele and a certain build of theif. If the meta was really all about dps, why are the optimal parties not 5 staff eles, or 5 theives?
thats because the other roles are important inspite of not being the highest dps.

its like.
imagine a basketball game. you have roles based on how well you move the ball, being able to shoot open shots, being able to shake defenders, ability to rebound, ability to steal the ball, and ability to block shots.

now imagine you create a stat system for the game based on successful shot %, the amount of points you can be losing by before you quit, and the how much you can get the crowd behind you when you are down points.

two of those stats have little to do with the actual roles/winning the game. The fact that every one takes the shot% stats doesnt mean there are no roles, it means the stats dont reflect much about the roles.

the only way to make those roles important is by forcing you to go down points no matter how well you play.

Knighthonor.4061:

But how exactly would that have made multiple roles equally effective and not just dps? Because thats the problem here.

Which roles are you talking about?

Xillllix.3485:

I think it’s a good thing, with the Ventari and the Druid perhaps the elementalist will get to play more offensively and will less feel like a water bot.

me too

im tired of stayig in water to heal zerkers who think they dont need any armor. bla bla bla all about dps but you do zero dps from the floor

eles really need a dmg increse to balance them out. ther heals are so good but you get kick when u try to heal so eles are prety much useless dmg, even in my dps clerics set

CureForLiving.5360:

Nah, if Ventari-Leg starts outputting the sort of healing that would allow players to mindless stand around face rolling keys while a Champion is hitting them in the face they’ll probably nerf it.

You can already to this. There are videos of full clerics doing dungeon runs just facetanking bosses instead of actively dodging and such. They surfaced to prove that clerics is more faceroll than zerker when it comes to actual effort put in.

kind of coming back to the difficulty issue. Full-offense melee works because there’s very rarely anything that puts sufficient strain on the available active defenses and control.

The necro NEEDS help.
Who knows about Revs.
And not a single player should care about meta.

Windsagio.1340:

kind of coming back to the difficulty issue. Full-offense melee works because there’s very rarely anything that puts sufficient strain on the available active defenses and control.

Agreed, we need content that brings forward an importance to other roles/playstyles/skills
all that

meeflak.9714:

Windsagio.1340:

kind of coming back to the difficulty issue. Full-offense melee works because there’s very rarely anything that puts sufficient strain on the available active defenses and control.

Agreed, we need content that brings forward an importance to other roles/playstyles/skills
all that

which is why were seein trinty come back with venti healer :-)

Parlourbeatflex.5970:

Wow the logic of some people in this forum is actually on insane levels.

The challenge that Anet took up upon devloping this game was to kill off the holy trinity so that there was no forced roles.
After 2+ years, the zerker meta has shown Anet that no matter how hard a MMORPG tries, the player base will generally prefer optimal builds and ‘meta gameplay’, so actually by not forcing any roles, the playerbase in itself makes DPS centric builds completely mandatory for any PVE group, as the meta isnt about completion, but more about time taken… Whats ironic, is the realisation that it is almost impossible to make any build viable for any content, without expecting the players to take the path of least resistance and thus decrease the amount of challenging fun in the game.

So now, its looking like more diversity is being pushed. THANK GOD. And yea, I am of the camp that raids (in some shape or form) will be also coming to gw2, so therefore I expect new content that demands certain role requirements. And yea, I am a little dissapointed that the initial no trinity dream of anet seems to be slowly and surely dying.

HOWEVER

You basically have a simple choice, let the zerk meta continue so it seems like NO OTHER build but zerk is particulary viable. Or try and develop a new and diverse meta in which players are actively challenged by its content, and a diverse set of builds and players options are not only viable, but almost required to complete the challenge.

Now the beauty of Gw2 is the adapable nature of each class in general, so if Anet do this right, most classes will be able to switch hard roles on the fly not just soft. This means you dont need to wait for specific players to do content, but a group communicating role options and adapting their build to suit the groups demands is actively encouraged.

I dunno maybe its just me… BUT when your trying to make a game FUN, this seriously seems like a no brainer to me.

Yes this. +1 to your post.

ForeverAway.5948:

meeflak.9714:

Windsagio.1340:

kind of coming back to the difficulty issue. Full-offense melee works because there’s very rarely anything that puts sufficient strain on the available active defenses and control.

Agreed, we need content that brings forward an importance to other roles/playstyles/skills
all that

which is why were seein trinty come back with venti healer :-)

But we arnt seeing a trinity, trinity would break the game, Making players as a whole use a different set of weapons/utilities isnt making of a trinity…..

You think gw2 is easy now, if we had a trinity dungeons and pve be MUCH easier and more boring :/

its not a trinty now but the new remnant will have venari powers for heals

and lets not forget taunt!!!!!!!

humm eveyone has been saying no to zerkmeta dominince and now were getting tank and heals skills

trinty is comin, im sure of it superexcitced for HOT i love this game !!

ForeverAway.5948:

its not a trinty now but the new remnant will have venari powers for heals

and lets not forget taunt!!!!!!!

humm eveyone has been saying no to zerkmeta dominince and now were getting tank and heals skills

trinty is comin, im sure of it superexcitced for HOT i love this game !!

AHAHAHAHAHA stop speaking for everyone. Only the loud few have a problem with the so called “Zerk Meta”. Unless they change how the AI works in this game, the so called “Zerk meta” will still be dominant and most used, in pve at least.

In a game where everyone is meant to be able to do everything equally, there will be no trinity. Edit: Or at least there never should be, if its done right.

Dante.1763:

ForeverAway.5948:

its not a trinty now but the new remnant will have venari powers for heals

and lets not forget taunt!!!!!!!

humm eveyone has been saying no to zerkmeta dominince and now were getting tank and heals skills

trinty is comin, im sure of it superexcitced for HOT i love this game !!

AHAHAHAHAHA stop speaking for everyone. Only the loud few have a problem with the so called “Zerk Meta”. Unless they change how the AI works in this game, the so called “Zerk meta” will still be dominant and most used, in pve at least.

In a game where everyone is meant to be able to do everything equally, there will be no trinity.

y r u laughin at me? do you think were not gettin trinty?

i mean the signs are there

the no-trinty idea has flopped and now ppl want to have actul challneging content. that means roles and they said were gettin tank and heal abilties. that means trinty

they dont need to change the content they just need to make rolls other than dps more useful

that will make it harder

OMG maybe the challanging group content revele will be the introdcution of the trinty! i think that would be awesome

Im laughing at the fact you really think Ventari+taunt = Heal/Tank role…….

:( dont be mean and laugh, i paid for this game and deserve an opinon. im just like you

you dont think this means trinty? why not? ventrilo can heal a tank that has taunt to holed agro on mobs for dps

this absolutly opens up trinty gameplay

all theyd need to do is nerf self heal abilites and we have a trinty meta!

ForeverAway.5948:

:( dont be mean and laugh, i paid for this game and deserve an opinon. im just like you

you dont think this means trinty? why not? ventrilo can heal a tank that has taunt to holed agro on mobs for dps

this absolutly opens up trinty gameplay

all theyd need to do is nerf self heal abilites and we have a trinty meta!

But is doesnt open it up at all………….

Ele and Guard can both heal an AMAZING amount, we never had trinity before that.

And Taunt is like a 2-3 sec Reverse fear that Many classes are getting. Taunt I see more as a way to help please res or be able to get the mob off them for a short time to heal/wait for a cool down.

or they could use it to hold aggro so the healer can heal the tank or dps

just like a trinty

Trinity + Diversity = people who stand around and ignore mechanics while someone babysits. The everyone heal your own butt idea is one of the best ones that GW2 has.. I hope we don’t really go down this road..

Faux.1937:

ForeverAway.5948:

:( dont be mean and laugh, i paid for this game and deserve an opinon. im just like you

you dont think this means trinty? why not? ventrilo can heal a tank that has taunt to holed agro on mobs for dps

this absolutly opens up trinty gameplay

all theyd need to do is nerf self heal abilites and we have a trinty meta!

But is doesnt open it up at all………….

Ele and Guard can both heal an AMAZING amount, we never had trinity before that.

And Taunt is like a 2-3 sec Reverse fear that Many classes are getting. Taunt I see more as a way to help please res or be able to get the mob off them for a short time to heal/wait for a cool down.

As far as I know the best healing before now was a staff ele… which had 3 heals. a 200/s heal on auto attack, geyser, a burst heal which heals ~3k + 800/s for 3s (20s CD) and healing rain which grants 12s of regen and curse 3 conditions (45s cd)… That gives 200/s + 270/s + 60/s = 500-600/s.

Rev gets 1400 healing on 3rd auto attack (2s combo), 1500 healing (15s CD), heal skill that heals 900 on 2s CD, passive heal that heals 100/s, unlimited projectile reflect, 1900 healing every 2s, condition removal (35s CD), 1200 healing fragments (no CD, high energy cost).

That gives 700/s + 100/s +450/s + 100/s +950/s = 2300/s plus burst heals and condition removal

That of course doesn’t use the fact that rev can get traits for plus 40% healing increase plus 1.5% healing output per 100 healing power, bringing the total to 3200hp/s without healing power gear…so yeah it seems rev is 5x better at healing than any current healers, and that doesn’t even count the HUGE boost they will get from healing power.

With a healing rev you could have the rest of your group facetank the entire game. No need to waste time dodging or moving out of fire, just DPS it down!

Remember taunt is a cc not a condition. So none of the mobs with defiance can be taunted. The role of tank is just to stand in melee range and soak up damage, but for the most part there is enough aoe that this isn’t possible. Your allies can even be hit by aoe attacks of taunted enemies.

The trinity in Gw2 is one of damage: dps, bunker, support; to deal damage, to take damage, to prevent damage.
Dps is based on the stats power, precision, ferocity, condition damage, condition duration.
Bunker is based on the stats toughness, vitality.
Support is based on the stats healing power, boon duration.

For you to have a healer spec you would need super high healing power and boon duration. So you have giver gear. Toughness, healing power, boon duration. But ventari doesnt give good boons, so maybe you go nomad. Either way you are either bad at giving boons and/or bad at dealing with spikes of damage.

A revenant staying in one stance is like an elementalist staying in one attunement.

ZudetGambeous.9573:

Faux.1937:

ForeverAway.5948:

:( dont be mean and laugh, i paid for this game and deserve an opinon. im just like you

you dont think this means trinty? why not? ventrilo can heal a tank that has taunt to holed agro on mobs for dps

this absolutly opens up trinty gameplay

all theyd need to do is nerf self heal abilites and we have a trinty meta!

But is doesnt open it up at all………….

Ele and Guard can both heal an AMAZING amount, we never had trinity before that.

And Taunt is like a 2-3 sec Reverse fear that Many classes are getting. Taunt I see more as a way to help please res or be able to get the mob off them for a short time to heal/wait for a cool down.

As far as I know the best healing before now was a staff ele… which had 3 heals. a 200/s heal on auto attack, geyser, a burst heal which heals ~3k + 800/s for 3s (20s CD) and healing rain which grants 12s of regen and curse 3 conditions (45s cd)… That gives 200/s + 270/s + 60/s = 500-600/s.

Rev gets 1400 healing on 3rd auto attack (2s combo), 1500 healing (15s CD), heal skill that heals 900 on 2s CD, passive heal that heals 100/s, unlimited projectile reflect, 1900 healing every 2s, condition removal (35s CD), 1200 healing fragments (no CD, high energy cost).

That gives 700/s + 100/s +450/s + 100/s +950/s = 2300/s plus burst heals and condition removal

That of course doesn’t use the fact that rev can get traits for plus 40% healing increase plus 1.5% healing output per 100 healing power, bringing the total to 3200hp/s without healing power gear…so yeah it seems rev is 5x better at healing than any current healers, and that doesn’t even count the HUGE boost they will get from healing power.

With a healing rev you could have the rest of your group facetank the entire game. No need to waste time dodging or moving out of fire, just DPS it down!

Any cc will force them to dodge roll or swap stances. Energy is also a thing people keep forgetting. 240 range is also not that large for any form of dynamic content. The cost of constantly moving the tablet will make this 3200hp/s idea an ideal. Revenant is amazing for when you absolutely must protect against direct damage, or conditions, and it does both amazingly well, but not at the same time.

Haveing one game Mode more where ANY Class can spec into a Healer or Tank cant be bad.

In Ascalon I spec my Guardian full Zerk DPS but in Fractals I go Zerker Hammer support.

I dont see a traditional Trinity here so long every body can do every role.

IF we get build Templates

ZudetGambeous.9573:

Faux.1937:

ForeverAway.5948:

:( dont be mean and laugh, i paid for this game and deserve an opinon. im just like you

you dont think this means trinty? why not? ventrilo can heal a tank that has taunt to holed agro on mobs for dps

this absolutly opens up trinty gameplay

all theyd need to do is nerf self heal abilites and we have a trinty meta!

But is doesnt open it up at all………….

Ele and Guard can both heal an AMAZING amount, we never had trinity before that.

And Taunt is like a 2-3 sec Reverse fear that Many classes are getting. Taunt I see more as a way to help please res or be able to get the mob off them for a short time to heal/wait for a cool down.

As far as I know the best healing before now was a staff ele… which had 3 heals. a 200/s heal on auto attack, geyser, a burst heal which heals ~3k + 800/s for 3s (20s CD) and healing rain which grants 12s of regen and curse 3 conditions (45s cd)… That gives 200/s + 270/s + 60/s = 500-600/s.

Rev gets 1400 healing on 3rd auto attack (2s combo), 1500 healing (15s CD), heal skill that heals 900 on 2s CD, passive heal that heals 100/s, unlimited projectile reflect, 1900 healing every 2s, condition removal (35s CD), 1200 healing fragments (no CD, high energy cost).

That gives 700/s + 100/s +450/s + 100/s +950/s = 2300/s plus burst heals and condition removal

That of course doesn’t use the fact that rev can get traits for plus 40% healing increase plus 1.5% healing output per 100 healing power, bringing the total to 3200hp/s without healing power gear…so yeah it seems rev is 5x better at healing than any current healers, and that doesn’t even count the HUGE boost they will get from healing power.

With a healing rev you could have the rest of your group facetank the entire game. No need to waste time dodging or moving out of fire, just DPS it down!

You need to do ele stats again with the correct traits…..

ForeverAway.5948 seems to have been on a highly successful fishing trip in this thread.

Faux.1937:

ZudetGambeous.9573:

Faux.1937:

ForeverAway.5948:

:( dont be mean and laugh, i paid for this game and deserve an opinon. im just like you

you dont think this means trinty? why not? ventrilo can heal a tank that has taunt to holed agro on mobs for dps

this absolutly opens up trinty gameplay

all theyd need to do is nerf self heal abilites and we have a trinty meta!

But is doesnt open it up at all………….

Ele and Guard can both heal an AMAZING amount, we never had trinity before that.

And Taunt is like a 2-3 sec Reverse fear that Many classes are getting. Taunt I see more as a way to help please res or be able to get the mob off them for a short time to heal/wait for a cool down.

As far as I know the best healing before now was a staff ele… which had 3 heals. a 200/s heal on auto attack, geyser, a burst heal which heals ~3k + 800/s for 3s (20s CD) and healing rain which grants 12s of regen and curse 3 conditions (45s cd)… That gives 200/s + 270/s + 60/s = 500-600/s.

Rev gets 1400 healing on 3rd auto attack (2s combo), 1500 healing (15s CD), heal skill that heals 900 on 2s CD, passive heal that heals 100/s, unlimited projectile reflect, 1900 healing every 2s, condition removal (35s CD), 1200 healing fragments (no CD, high energy cost).

That gives 700/s + 100/s +450/s + 100/s +950/s = 2300/s plus burst heals and condition removal

That of course doesn’t use the fact that rev can get traits for plus 40% healing increase plus 1.5% healing output per 100 healing power, bringing the total to 3200hp/s without healing power gear…so yeah it seems rev is 5x better at healing than any current healers, and that doesn’t even count the HUGE boost they will get from healing power.

With a healing rev you could have the rest of your group facetank the entire game. No need to waste time dodging or moving out of fire, just DPS it down!

You need to do ele stats again with the correct traits…..

No I don’t. I didn’t include stats or traits in this calculation… 500 for ele 2300 for rev, no traits or stats included. They both get access to stats and traits (rev gets much more than ele anyway). That’s 5x, it gets closer to 7x if you want to include traits and stats since rev gets much better healing traits.

Also with that much healing you won’t need to dodge or move so it doesn’t need to be taken into account, plus PvE is stack and spam anyway, so this will just further enforce that.

ODB.6891:

Ferever.7014:

While I’m up for the trinity I don’t want GW2 to break word on its promise of people being forced into roles just to complete content. If I can clear content as a tank , healer then I should do able to do it in a all DPS group to as well.

This^

Stop catering to cry babies over imagined slights ANET. Balance your game on numbers and facts…not forum balancing. Recognize the game dynamics you created (that we purchased) and stop trying to nudge us into a trinity.

The problem though is having no trinity creates the other side of the coin where elitism exist since a single play style (zerk meta) can clear pretty much all content and many develop the attitude of “no zerk gtfo”. The game needs to rebalance its current content to have better variety catering to some condi or support builds required to have a smoother experience rather than zerk always being the meta for everything.