Guild Wars 2

Let me preface this by saying I hate HoT. Not a fan-boy.

But, to those who are complaining that there are “only 4 maps”, please reconsider:

• HoT maps have many levels that are mostly populated.
• HoT maps are much larger than the maps in the rest of Tyria.
• HoT maps require a great deal of effort to fully map.
• HoT maps are all level 80. Thus, no need for newbie maps.

I don’t think it’s fair to say “only 4 maps” as if that means there isn’t much map-type content (i.e. by comparing to the 28 maps in the rest of the world). It’s closer to 20 maps worth of material.

Now back to complaining about HoT …

I’ve heard that arguement too, and it doesn’t make sense. Because something is above ground or underground doesn’t make it another map. It makes it another level of the same map.

Using that logic, almost every map in Warcraft is actually three maps. Above ground, ground, and underground or underwater.

Sorry, but most of us aren’t buying that it’s three maps or more because of elevation. That’s like saying the Empire State Building is 103 buildings because it has that many floors, a basement, and an observatory.

My apologies, but it’s still one building and HoT only has four maps in this so-called ‘expansion.’

I’d argue there are actually only three maps as the last one is basically a meta event that resets on a 2 hour timer.

Also I don’t see how you could possibly consider the maps we got to compare to 20 maps (70+) from the original game. Although HOT map are larger it’s often for seemingly no reason as their size doesn’t equate to more content just more running around.

There may be four maps, but they are leagues better than the core 25 maps combined.

runeblade.7514:

There may be four maps, but they are leagues better than the core 25 maps combined.

They are good… but to say HoT is better than core Tyria? No. Maybe for you… but not for everyone; definitely not for me.

Daddicus.6128:

It’s closer to 20 maps worth of material.

Don’t blindly buy into the “biomes”. Consider the surface area of the ground level of these maps. Are the other levels the same size? If you dig in the ground and drop in there its ok to call it another level? Granted I exaggerated the size difference but I hope the message is clear. They are very good… among the best map in the game even. But not that good

runeblade.7514:

There may be four maps, but they are leagues better than the core 25 maps combined.

A matter of opinion I guess, not one I share.

Let’s face it most Central Tyria maps are boring and ridiculous once you were on HOT maps for a while. It’s like a child’s play.

But actually only one HOT map is really complex and that’s Tangled Depths which really has multi-layers. VB has almost no root level and the canopy isn’t that big either. Still a great map though. Auric Basin is mostly one layer like most maps and Dragon’s Stand is mostly one layer.

Also they aren’t that big. Compare the map size with Lornar’s Pass for example. They aren’t bigger although they may seem bigger.

I was disappointed with map size. They were hyped up to be huge maps wi lots of vertical space. But in reality we got maps with some trees, cliffs, and caves. Tangled Depths is closest to the hyped up “3 levels” and it just barely cuts it with some over ground overlapping underground (underwater was pointless). Even Verdant Brinks has main level with events, and then a couple hero points below and above. I was expecting layered environments but we got: Oh there is an event in this cave and a champion on that ledge! But at least the verticality that was there was fun (Pale reavers chain as an example).

Central Tyria’s maps are infinitely better than the maps in HoT. I am not talking about the difficulty level of the enemies just the map design itself.

Dashingsteel.3410:

Central Tyria’s maps are infinitely better than the maps in HoT. I am not talking about the difficulty level of the enemies just the map design itself.

Agreed. I’m kind of surprised anyone thinks the HoT maps are better. But I will admit I’ve enjoyed Tangled Depths the most . . . as hellish as it can be.

I definitely like the HoT maps more than core Tyria maps, best thing to happen to the game for me though I don’t feel they are the biggest maps out there

Ardenwolfe.8590:

Dashingsteel.3410:

Central Tyria’s maps are infinitely better than the maps in HoT. I am not talking about the difficulty level of the enemies just the map design itself.

Agreed. I’m kind of surprised anyone thinks the HoT maps are better. But I will admit I’ve enjoyed Tangled Depths the most . . . as hellish as it can be.

Because HOT maps are infinitely better than the ridiculously easy and flat original maps. What they create since Dry Top is just absolutly marvellous and seeks its own in the MMO universe.

Ardenwolfe.8590:

I’ve heard that arguement too, and it doesn’t make sense. Because something is above ground or underground doesn’t make it another map. It makes it another level of the same map.

So if I take the underground part of a map and rather than occupying the same “space”, I just give it some kind of cave entrance at the edge of the map, would that make it a new map? Why/Why not?

What arbitrary rules are you setting for what defines a “map”? Because if it’s about having a map of its own, then that condition is fulfilled by every single Home instance and the separate levels in places like the Grove.

Alone.1784:

I’d argue there are actually only three maps as the last one is basically a meta event that resets on a 2 hour timer.

Also I don’t see how you could possibly consider the maps we got to compare to 20 maps (70+) from the original game. Although HOT map are larger it’s often for seemingly no reason as their size doesn’t equate to more content just more running around.

HOT maps aren’t larger for the most part except for maps like SW and DT.

Daddicus.6128:

Let me preface this by saying I hate HoT. Not a fan-boy.

But, to those who are complaining that there are “only 4 maps”, please reconsider:

• HoT maps have many levels that are mostly populated.
• HoT maps are much larger than the maps in the rest of Tyria.
• HoT maps require a great deal of effort to fully map.
• HoT maps are all level 80. Thus, no need for newbie maps.

I don’t think it’s fair to say “only 4 maps” as if that means there isn’t much map-type content (i.e. by comparing to the 28 maps in the rest of the world). It’s closer to 20 maps worth of material.

Now back to complaining about HoT …

Eh… I full mapped HoT in about 3 hours. That is way less effort than the old maps. Also the maps are not “much larger than the maps in the rest of Tyria.”. TD is probably the largest map and it can be crossed in maybe a couple of minutes.

With all that said I am fine with the new maps, though TD needs to have its timer cut in half to an hour because two hours is too long for a map with such a short event chain.

The core Tyria maps feel like an actual world.

HoT maps feel like a convoluted puzzle maze.

kurfu.5623:

HoT maps feel like a convoluted puzzle maze.

Considering HoT is a journey through an unexplored jungle, sounds appropriate.

Do you know how much of VB is nothing but air?

AB and DS are pretty much one layered with some “caves”.

Only TD goes in the right direction. However there also a lot places in each layer that have ‘nothing’. If you have a map with 4 layer it’s not equal to 4 maps if each layer only has 50% of the map size as playable area.

So yeah saying the 4 new maps have the same amount of content like 20 old maps is crazy. More like 6 to 8, maybe.

There is also the argument of 3 and 1/3rd armorsets…

i love exploration, and think the balance of 4 maps is good.

it would be a good idea, a bonus expansion with new maps on some empty spaces, like southsun cove. theres a stretched coast on “tarnished coast”. they can create something here.

I like the map design on HoT. However, they are not as big as you are thinking. Not when you have Lornar’s Pass, Straits of Devastation, Frostgorge Sound, Bloodtide Coast and Mount Maelstrom. They can be more “linear” at first, but they also have 3-4 biomes: a mix of Water, Forest, Plains, Wastes, Snow and even a Volcano.

Also, Dynamic Events (simply lost forbidden forgotten absence into oblivion on HoT) make the maps much more replayable and enjoyable than HoT. HoT maps are gorgeous, but that’s all for me.

Olba.5376:

Ardenwolfe.8590:

I’ve heard that arguement too, and it doesn’t make sense. Because something is above ground or underground doesn’t make it another map. It makes it another level of the same map.

So if I take the underground part of a map and rather than occupying the same “space”, I just give it some kind of cave entrance at the edge of the map, would that make it a new map? Why/Why not?

What arbitrary rules are you setting for what defines a “map”? Because if it’s about having a map of its own, then that condition is fulfilled by every single Home instance and the separate levels in places like the Grove.

The problem is there isn’t much underground area…
Verdant Brinks is all air and cliffs with like 2 ruined areas at jungle floor.
Auric Basin has the short chest run underground if meta succeeded.
Tangles Depths does not have much overlap. Nothing above the lanes and leyline hub area, not much above rata novus, nothing below ogre and scar camps.
Dragon’s Stand has a some caves.

Same for the canopy areas.
VB has a few boss arenas and hero points.
AB doesn’t have an upper area.
TD has a couple cliffs and a big tree.
DS doesn’t have an upper area.

While I like the new maps, I was disappointed with how small an area of the continent they opened up.

I would’ve agreed to the levels thing if I had never actually played HoT. See when people said “layered” I thought “Okay so it’s like three maps on top of each other, you have the canopy like tree houses and giant boughs to play on. You have the ground level which is just the bottom of a forest, and the underground of cave systems. That’s cool.” When I got into hot the first thing I thought is “This isn’t layered at all, it has verticality, but so much of the space is wasted… having a few ‘mountain’ like spots is not layering.”

Daddicus.6128:

Let me preface this by saying I hate HoT. Not a fan-boy.

But, to those who are complaining that there are “only 4 maps”, please reconsider:

• HoT maps have many levels that are mostly populated.
• HoT maps are much larger than the maps in the rest of Tyria.
• HoT maps require a great deal of effort to fully map.
• HoT maps are all level 80. Thus, no need for newbie maps.

I don’t think it’s fair to say “only 4 maps” as if that means there isn’t much map-type content (i.e. by comparing to the 28 maps in the rest of the world). It’s closer to 20 maps worth of material.

Now back to complaining about HoT …

Has been already seen with maps of ORR.

If map is hard,that doesn’t mean its larger.If you have to climb up on the trees,or glide down 100 yards,it doesn’t make it larger.

I don’t care if HoT is bigger or not than the average central Tyria map, what matters to me is that they are much more, say, engaging. I have an impression that many maps in the core game feel just as fillers.

The ones I like best before HoT were Orr, because they are dynamic and if you keep returning to it after have it fully explored, no matter if it’s just for grinding or pleasure (or both), you are there for the events, and not to fulfill hearts. I can say that same is true for HoT and SW.

Now if you want to complain about being small, bad design and borefest, what about Southsun Cove?

Edit: my only grumble is that I didn’t want more Maguuma. I hope next xpac will be about Crystal Desert and the area nearby.

Coyote.7031:

I would’ve agreed to the levels thing if I had never actually played HoT. See when people said “layered” I thought “Okay so it’s like three maps on top of each other, you have the canopy like tree houses and giant boughs to play on. You have the ground level which is just the bottom of a forest, and the underground of cave systems. That’s cool.” When I got into hot the first thing I thought is “This isn’t layered at all, it has verticality, but so much of the space is wasted… having a few ‘mountain’ like spots is not layering.”

This is exactly how I felt when I first got a good look at the HoT maps. When I realized how most of the exposed “underground” area is just “touch it and die” empty space, I was kind of upset. Especially given that we’re already walking all over Mordremoth’s vines, why does touching THOSE vines automatically kill us?

I’d say that with VB, once you take all the openings and gaps into account, the zone is actually only slightly larger than a flat map of that size would be.

I think the point is that the HoT maps add so much complexity and explorability to the standard MMO map we’re used to. The maps in central tyria are frankly dull. Once you’ve map completed a zone once and seen all the pretty things that exist there, there really is very little reason to ever return (besides for farming the higher level maps).

Frankly, HoT has taken MMO map design to a place where it has never been before. VB especially brings an entirely new feel to MMO maps. Never before have I ever played a game where even running around on the ground, I see things taking place on cliffs above me which I need to figure out how to access, or on levels below me where I can glide down and participate in the event going on there. And then you get to glide around far far above the map through a system of updrafts and crashed pact ships, and far far below the map, finding little nooks and crannies with hidden hero points and strongboxes. I honestly still feel like I’m finding new little areas/ways to get around VB.

HoT maps actually made me think a little bit and do some true exploring which is truly refreshing in an MMO. In core Tyria, I just angled my character at the next poi/vista/wp/etc. and turned on auto run. Occasionally I ran around a tiny hill. HoT takes that concept to a whole new level.

In my opinion, obviously.

The whole argument that there are ‘only 4 maps’ is rather dumb IMO. What is relevant is the content they provide, not how many there are.

On the other hand, the HoT maps actually deliver a massive step up in geography, as few of them as there are; you actually have to figure out how to get places. To have the map layout as something a player needs to be thoughtful about, almost makes it worthy of calling it content on it’s own. Map layout as game content … that’s an interesting concept.

Daddicus.6128:

Let me preface this by saying I hate HoT. Not a fan-boy.

But, to those who are complaining that there are “only 4 maps”, please reconsider:

• HoT maps have many levels that are mostly populated.
• HoT maps are much larger than the maps in the rest of Tyria.
• HoT maps require a great deal of effort to fully map.
• HoT maps are all level 80. Thus, no need for newbie maps.

I don’t think it’s fair to say “only 4 maps” as if that means there isn’t much map-type content (i.e. by comparing to the 28 maps in the rest of the world). It’s closer to 20 maps worth of material.

Now back to complaining about HoT …

Well, according to my exploration, there’s about about 12 semi-distinct levels in “general” among all 4 maps. This is totally up to opinion of course, since most of these levels don’t require a hard transition from one level to another. I’ve also felt there is a distinct difference in difficulty and complexity between the maps. I’ve tried to rate that between 1-10 complexity.

Verdant Brink (3 “levels” – Complexity 5)
- Upper canopy level
- Middle camps level
- Lower roots level

Auric Basin (4 “levels” – Complexity 6)
- Upper level (Tarnished Treetop, Burnisher Quarry)
- Middle camp level (camps, pylons, entraces to forgotten city)
- Forgotten city first level
- Forgotten city lower level

Tangled Depths (4 “levels” – Complexity 10)
- Upper level (Orge Camp, Teku Nohoch)
- Mid level (entrance area from AB, Undergrowth area, troll hp area, etc)
- Lower Chak level
- Underwater level

Dragons Stand (1 “level” – Complexity 3)
- Most of DS is actually pretty flat other than the island area, just spread out. Yet even in the island area there’s only one tiny upper area that’s barely of any significant size to be considered a distinct level.

In regards to this statement…

“HoT maps are much larger than the maps in the rest of Tyria.”

I’m not too sure about that. Considering just the cities in the core world, which are the smallest maps, one city is equivalent in size to many of the upper or lower levels on the HoT maps, particularly if you are talking actual walkable ground, and core world has 6 of those maps, some with their own levels. Start counting all the maps around them, something like 29 maps, and you are well beyond the the size of all the other mid and lower levels within the 4 maps combined.

What makes the maps “feel” bigger is the verticality and open air between levels. If you were to take the air contained between all the levels on each map somehow, then yes, the volume might likely equate to something larger. But not sure that counts necessarly as larger.

Ardenwolfe.8590:

Sorry, but most of us aren’t buying that it’s three maps or more because of elevation. That’s like saying the Empire State Building is 103 buildings because it has that many floors, a basement, and an observatory.

I disagree with your post.

Also I must point out that the Empire State Building was built for precisely that reason: they could fit the number of people of 100 pieces of real estate into one piece of real estate. That’s a major reason for why ALL skyscrapers are built.

I will admit that my original post was exaggerated. However, I still think it’s unfair to talk about “only 4 maps”.

It’s not equal to 20 maps. Maybe 10 is more accurate. But, even then, many of the non-HoT maps did have layers, and especially so the level-80 maps (SW has 2 complete layers, and Dry Top has like 1 1/2 or so).

Also (and this didn’t hit me until I read all your posts), there are only 4 level 80 maps in non-HoT Tyria. I’ll bet the devs noticed that as they were designing HoT.

The problem with that theory is that there are also 5 zones slightly below 80th level (Frostgorge, Fireheart Rise, and the volcano, plus the other two zones in Orr).

So, all in all, I stand by may main thrust that it’s not fair to make an argument that there are “only” 4 maps. But, you guys have pointed out that it’s not a complete no-brainer, either (as my post kind of implied).

Thanks!

Only Verdant Brink really has 2 distinct levels ( I wouldn’t call the cloud layer a level, as its 80% empty). It is the most amazing map, as good or better than Silverwaste.

The other maps are more vertical and are very detailed, but do not really have distinct levels. They are not bigger than the old maps in terms of horizontal space covered.
How is the Dragon Stand Map more complex than the Malchor Leap map?

HoT is 4 maps, if Silverwaste and Dry Top would have been released with it it would have been an outstanding expansion. I guess because we got the Living Story content for free the expansion came out a little smaller than expected.

The level of details in HoT’s maps is really impressive, I personally just wished they had 1-2 dungeons with it and 1-2 more pvp maps.

Daddicus.6128:

zi disagree with your post.

Also I must point out that the Empire State Building was built for precisely that reason: they could fit the number of people of 100 pieces of real estate into one piece of real estate. That’s a major reason for why ALL skyscrapers are built.

But we aren’t calling it 103 buildings, now are we? Feel free to disagree all you like, but the bottom line it’s four maps with varying levels or depths . . . not 12 or so maps.

There’s not getting around this one.

Not really 4 maps, it’s 4 mini-maps. Something like 1.50/2 normal maps in total if you are generous with arenanet.

runeblade.7514:

There may be four maps, but they are leagues better than the core 25 maps combined.

I lawld

runeblade.7514:

There may be four maps, but they are leagues better than the core 25 maps combined.

This isn’t true for me. I prefer the original maps.

I wonder why they didn’t add any normal/old tyria style maps, I love playing those.

I spend most of my time in old Tyria maps. New maps are pretty but they don’t have the variety of wood/ore I need to make gold.
And if I want to pew pew things, I chose Orr or SW over any HoT map. This is the first MMO where I never go to the xpac areas to farm things :/

Nausicca.6038:

I spend most of my time in old Tyria maps. New maps are pretty but they don’t have the variety of wood/ore I need to make gold.
And if I want to pew pew things, I chose Orr or SW over any HoT map. This is the first MMO where I never go to the xpac areas to farm things :/

^This is the prevailing theme of players who bought HoT in my guild. Well it was when they were all still playing. Everyone said HoT was gorgeous and it was fun. It had no long term appeal though. Long term is farming mats and doing events over and over that you find enjoyable. HoT is definitely lacking in that area for some people. Also, dungeons are gone in terms of replayability. Same for Fractals. We’ll see what happens today to rectify them being garbage for the last two months as a long term play option.

One raid, 4 maps and a Fractal and Dungeon Nerf over the last 2 months with nothing added the previous 10+ months prior to the x-pac. If you can’t see why some people would be disgruntled by that it can’t be helped. I can understand why people are content with HoT, but those people should be understanding of why people aren’t.

The maps only feel bigger because they are a pain to navigate. That is not necessarily a good thing.
Remember GW1, where you could not freely roam the maps and had to stick to a few predefined paths. Feels kinda old-fashioned now doesn’kitten

Iason Evan.3806:

Nausicca.6038:

I spend most of my time in old Tyria maps. New maps are pretty but they don’t have the variety of wood/ore I need to make gold.
And if I want to pew pew things, I chose Orr or SW over any HoT map. This is the first MMO where I never go to the xpac areas to farm things :/

^This is the prevailing theme of players who bought HoT in my guild. Well it was when they were all still playing. Everyone said HoT was gorgeous and it was fun. It had no long term appeal though. Long term is farming mats and doing events over and over that you find enjoyable. HoT is definitely lacking in that area for some people. Also, dungeons are gone in terms of replayability. Same for Fractals. We’ll see what happens today to rectify them being garbage for the last two months as a long term play option.

One raid, 4 maps and a Fractal and Dungeon Nerf over the last 2 months with nothing added the previous 10+ months prior to the x-pac. If you can’t see why some people would be disgruntled by that it can’t be helped. I can understand why people are content with HoT, but those people should be understanding of why people aren’t.

lol. Tarir farm completely put Silverwastes in the pocket. Theres even a achievment “save golden city 100 times”. in the first 5 times i cant believe in the insanely gold u make here.

ugrakarma.9416:

Iason Evan.3806:

Nausicca.6038:

I spend most of my time in old Tyria maps. New maps are pretty but they don’t have the variety of wood/ore I need to make gold.
And if I want to pew pew things, I chose Orr or SW over any HoT map. This is the first MMO where I never go to the xpac areas to farm things :/

^This is the prevailing theme of players who bought HoT in my guild. Well it was when they were all still playing. Everyone said HoT was gorgeous and it was fun. It had no long term appeal though. Long term is farming mats and doing events over and over that you find enjoyable. HoT is definitely lacking in that area for some people. Also, dungeons are gone in terms of replayability. Same for Fractals. We’ll see what happens today to rectify them being garbage for the last two months as a long term play option.

One raid, 4 maps and a Fractal and Dungeon Nerf over the last 2 months with nothing added the previous 10+ months prior to the x-pac. If you can’t see why some people would be disgruntled by that it can’t be helped. I can understand why people are content with HoT, but those people should be understanding of why people aren’t.

lol. Tarir farm completely put Silverwastes in the pocket. Theres even a achievment “save golden city 100 times”. in the first 5 times i cant believe in the insanely gold u make here.

Time you need to finish AB meta (or find a decent map than can actualy complete it), I can farm enough mats to make t7 mats and get20 gold, or farm 2x SW ( and get the needed shovels for guild halls upgrade). A couple of days ago, I was gathering wood in Malchor’s Leap, helped killing Lyssa and got All Seeing. Then I jumped in wvw and got Chaos Gun from a random daredevil.
Tell me again how farming HoT is good for my wallet.

Nausicca.6038:

I spend most of my time in old Tyria maps. New maps are pretty but they don’t have the variety of wood/ore I need to make gold.
And if I want to pew pew things, I chose Orr or SW over any HoT map. This is the first MMO where I never go to the xpac areas to farm things :/

I think that’s a conscious decision. Clearly Anet doesn’t want the core zones to be completely dead so they made farming ‘regular’ T6 mats in the new zones much less lucrative. Frankly, if someone knew what they were doing, they could always make more money in open world zones than they could anywhere else but it does require more knowledge to do so than running an event or a dungeon. I believe that anyone thinking that the plethora of blue/green loot you get farming events in HoT is the best way to make money is simply a transplanted dungeon runner.

Why is everyone kittenin to each other about only having 4 maps. You are lucky that you even got one kittening map, and there’s raids, and guild halls. So the devs were working on about 7 or 8 maps here. Atleast you have a gokitten map instead of being stuck in the silverwastes or dry top. And season 3 of the living world will add more maps, probably. So be thankful for what you have.