Pay To Win?
I think that Anet has their work cut out for them when it comes to balancing the various specs, elite specs, and classes. It seems likely to be never finished, but I do think that they should be given time to demonstrate the ability to make progress.
How about in Guild Wars 1? Could players who only owned Prophesies go against players in PvP who had an Assassin, Ritualist, Dervish, or Paragon? How about other games where you gain levels if you buy the expansion and those who don’t, don’t get to level up and can’t compete.
That doesn’t mean that the new professions don’t need to be balanced better against the old, but it’s not pay to win if the balancing hasn’t been done yet.
Be careful what you ask for
ANet may give it to you.
ANet may give it to you.
are the new specializations technically stronger than the old classes ?
well , may be Anet should sell the PvP only upgrade unlock in gemstore. unlock your desired new specialization (PvP only), for certain amount of gems.
Cutie Phantasmer/Farinas [HAX] – CD Casual
Archeage = Farmville with PK
Archeage = Farmville with PK
(edited by azizul.8469)
giving new pets in expansion and prohibiting them from core users is rubbish. anet does not fix the pet system but brings more powerful and useful pets to the table. first fix the bloody core game. I paid money for that and will not pay a dime until the necessary fixes are done.
and also we lost our dear wvw maps to a bunch of giant boring new ones, pvp is fooked with new elites. pve is still the same and became boring as hell (also nerfs for f2p are fooked).
Pay To Win?
Buy to Play?
(Fixed that for you.)
are the new specializations technically stronger than the old classes ?
In PvE, no…although there are some uses in Magus Falls & Raids where the new specs shine over the old specs. (Since that’s both PvE and in the HoT maps, the P2W argument is moot anyhow.) In WvW, I’d also say no, although I don’t GvG and folks who do might feel differently (on the other hand, GvG isn’t an official mode, so perhaps that’s moot, too).
PvP is a different matter. I’m not any sort of PvP expert. I just know that a lot of the more competitive teams include builds with the new specs and no one has figured out reliable counters. However, I’d argue that particular imbalance isn’t so much the new specs being “better” as it is that ANet didn’t realize how they would be used. I think it’s easy to argue that some elite specs are OP’d independent of the strength of the vanilla classes.
Before claiming the game is P2W in PvP, I’d think we’d want to wait to see how things look after the January balance patch (which might not show up until February). If those elite specs are still OP’d after the patch, then ANet will have some serious ‘splainin’ to do.
John Smith: “you should kill monsters, because killing monsters is awesome.”
This game is pay to play, not pay to win.
If you’re not willing to pay for content you simply have no acces to it.
Like F2P can’t buy sigils or runes, doesn’t make it pay to win compared to P2P players.
Also as stated above, GW1 had the same disadvantage if you’re not willing to pay for content.
Expansions in every MMORPG I’ve ever seen raise the level cap. This isn’t the definition of pay to win. You want to play Guild Wars Heart of Thorns buy Guild Wars Heart of Thorns. It’s the current incarnation of Guild Wars 2.
If you were playing WoW, you’d be 10 levels lower than people. Seriously, people need to get a clue about what pay to win actually means.
There are games out there that you have to use microtransactions on a constant basis to stay competitive. That’s pay 2 win.
Releasing an expansion is not. Because then EVERYONE is pay to win and it’s not worth commenting on.
In the context of the OP (in other words PvP): absolutely pay to win. The new specializations are must-haves in PvP: just look at the latest tournaments.
WvW also, but that game mode is pretty much dead.
In the context of the OP (in other words PvP): absolutely pay to win. The new specializations are must-haves in PvP: just look at the latest tournaments.
WvW also, but that game mode is pretty much dead.
So, for PvP when they balance the new professions so they match the old, then the game becomes no longer pay to win. But if a new meta arises and one of the elite professions becomes OP again then it’s pay to win again, until it’s nerfed and isn’t pay to win anymore.
Sounds like it’s more a balancing issue and that people are throwing p2w around way to easily.
Be careful what you ask for
ANet may give it to you.
ANet may give it to you.
If we start throwing around terms like pay-to-win, we should be careful what we look at.
Is 1 expansion in 3 years pay-to-win? Sure, if you make no distinction between buy-to-win and pay-to-win.
But where do you draw the line? What about scaling in pay-to-win? Is a game that requires constant ingame shop purchases better or similar to one that brings out an expansion? Was Guild Wars 1 pay-to-win? I don’t recall people ever naming it that.
Are elite specs a clear increase in power? For most classes, yes.
Are they the problem spvp is having right now? No. Balance between classes is way more out of hand.
Will the expansion eventually drop in price? Sure.
As Jafw said, people just like throwing around the term pay-2-win to dramatise the argument.
Also lol at the comparison between GW2 and Dota. If you think the buy-to-win aspect of GW2 is what is holding it back, you are either a pve player talking bs on a topic you know nothing about, or you just wanted to sound smart. Fail in both cases.
(edited by Cyninja.2954)
Certainly, in this meta, it’s completely a Pay to Win situation. There’s also the issue of having to pay almost 200 gold to unlock PvP gear. Some may argue to the contrary but, our older builds can’t keep up with the new ones.
[AwM] of Jade Quarry.
“buy-to-win”? Is that some kind of new buzzword or just for made up on the spot in order to sound cool?
“buy-to-win”? Riiight, because buying totally isn’t paying. Is that some kind of new buzzword or just for made up on the spot in order to sounds cool?
It’s a deviation of buy-to-play, which together with free-to-play and pay-to-play are 3 different approaches of monetization for MMOs currently.
I never said buying wasn’t paying. I disagree that a one time buy on this time scale should be lumped with actual pay-to-win approaches though. A distinction you seem not to care about.
I think this thread should be closed already.
Whoever thinks Guild Wars is p2w is out of his mind.
In the context of the OP (in other words PvP): absolutely pay to win. The new specializations are must-haves in PvP: just look at the latest tournaments.
WvW also, but that game mode is pretty much dead.
So, for PvP when they balance the new professions so they match the old, then the game becomes no longer pay to win. But if a new meta arises and one of the elite professions becomes OP again then it’s pay to win again, until it’s nerfed and isn’t pay to win anymore.
Sounds like it’s more a balancing issue and that people are throwing p2w around way to easily.
LOL. As if the problem was one OP build.
Just look at the recent tournaments. You’re lucky to see one player playing core.
Absolutely pay to win.
GW2 is a BSP with a P2W model
Chronomancer is indeed strickly stronger than a Mesmer as all the other elite specialiazations change the classes core functionality. The chrono however adds on to it for instance shroud was changed for the necro and it’s elite and so forth for the other classes as well. However with the mesmer there is no change and they added the f5 button.
You paid $50 to get a game designed around draining in game gold and materials as fast they can in order to push cash to gold transfers on the cash shop. Everything these days is a gold sink even the older recipes have been modified to for additional gold sink prowess.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1a0hd7M5T0X2Bf3CMsKRlGXeMp1hh0JTTj-eKtyzcfhs/edit?usp=sharing
Here are all the different combinations of sale/sub/win methods. There are 8 distinct methods with variances in how much they do one thing or another.
GW2 core game is clearly B2P; this cannot even be argued.
GW2:HoT is much more subjective. I would still argue it is B2P solely with regard to the expansion. I don’t believe it is reasonable to compare MMORPG expansions to their previous expansion or core game with regard to whether it is P2W because the expansion almost always increases level caps and gear values. I would argue that, while people would be very upset (me included), if there were an increase in level cap in GW2:HoT, then nobody would be claiming that GW2:HoT is P2W unless you also consider every MMO expansion to be P2W.
I personally would not consider expansions as P2W. I would hold that designation to items that can be bought only from in-game stores with real world money that gives someone a significant advantage over others.
Under the description of the OP, every expansion ever in every MMO ever is P2W. Sir, I think you need to just suck it up and by the expansion if you want to play the elite specs. I have HoT, I still run an older build. a Pre-HoT build if you well. And I do fairly well. Sounds like are just complaining (and you are complaining without any valid facts) about the imbalance issues, which won’t be fixed before the end of the PvP season.
However, to claim it is P2W. You don’t have to BUY or PAY of the expansion to win. Or get ahead. It just so happens, which the release of specializations, that the meta has them as the most easy win modes. When a balance patch comes out, it will be fixed.
Lets wait a minute and take WoW into example. When Death Knights got released they were super powerful. I’m certain you needed the xpac to play a DK when it came it. Was WoW p2w then too?
[EG] Ethereal Guardians
Formerly [QT] Questionable Tactics
Formerly [QT] Questionable Tactics
Hello all and Hello Arena Net.
i am making this form because i love guild wars 2 and have always have had fun with it everyday i logged in was a Joy! … untill the exspantion came out. i am NOT saying it’s bad i am just concerned and frustrated about the whole pay to Win thing. What i mean by pay to win is PVP, yes PVP… i dont think it is fair for those who dont have the exspantion to NOT have All of their abilites in PVP it makes it Hugely unballanced and unfair and really has made me wonder if the consern for the “Players” of the game was in mind when this exspantion was made. because not its like "oh if you wanna win and have fun in pvp buy the exspantion… yes i do realize that i sound like i am whining about always getting my clocked cleaned buy someone with the exspantion because i dont have my abilites in PVP. but thats not the main reason i am writeing this form… i purpose that it be made so that when in PVP you get ALL of your abilities so its no unfair and everyone can enjoy the game.
Please, i mean no offense what so ever i just dont like how pvp has become pay to win and so unbalanced.. i do hope someone else has come up to you with these concerns and when you read this it will make you think on making some changes so we can all enjoy the game when doing pvp. but let me make one thing clear. i do not exspect everyone to have all the new abilities outside of pvp if they dont have the exspantion but IN SIDE it would be fair if everyone was able to enjoy the pvp to it’s fullest and also as a side bonus they would see what they would be getting if they buy the exspantion. anyways thank you Arena net for taking the time to read this because this was mainly made for you. i LOVE guild wars 2 and only wish to enjoy it more and to offer whatever helpful advice i can.
your fan/player,
Dreamwolf
Might get trolled for this but several of the old builds are still very viable with an experienced player.
For instance as much as people lol at thiefs now a good thief running d/p with the old meta build can be very dangerous especially against dragonhunters if you use your utilities right (stealth, shadowstep out of traps), guardians themselves have low hp so if you time your daze/stuns right outside of aegis and their new wall (which only protects the front) you can usually take them down fast. They also have very good burst against condi’s (again shadowstep to remove conditions if u get a lot) Even revs can’t take to much hits especially if they blew their shield or crystalized armor traited heal. (especially the beserker builds, more suspectable to dps bursts than say the condi ones which are tankier) Thieves also boon steal which if timed right (say against a rev who stacked might) can be great. Also many of the new meta builds like tempest ele and condi rev play their best with a group. I’ve seen lots of newbies running around with these meta builds trying to 1v1 people.
The new shatter build for the mesmer is also the same as the old one with the inclusion of wells. Bunker mes maybe different but for lower levels the old shatter is still very good.
Condi necros haven’t changed much except the inclusion of reapers.
Power rangers are still very strong in what they do, especially on certain maps if you use terrain/distance to your advantage.
Unless you’re in a very high league ranking not sure it matters to much. Sure DH and reaper is op easy mode for low levels but other builds are just fine;
I’ll agree with the elite specs need some balance passes. Right now there are certain specs that are..out of whack. I’m not going to do the whole ‘omg it’s op!’ because in some instances that’s not the case. Part of the issue is (as with all new classes) people need to learn the counters, not that the skills themselves are ‘OP’ (though there is some of that too). Hopefully Anet can balance things appropriately with time, and being a ‘reaper’ won’t be ‘necessary’ as opposed to just being a ‘necromancer.’ Just an an example. We’ll see.
Beyond that though…. the expansion isn’t different from any other game’s expansion in this regard (the adding of new classes). That alone isn’t necessarily “pay to win.” Because you can still win without the elites.
I still think people need to learn wtf “pay to win” actually is. Cause GW2….not even close.
Don’t look at me like that. Whatever you’ve heard, it’s probably not true.
Can you KEEP PAYING money to continue to get stronger?
No, you cant
Its pay to play not pay to win, if you could keep buying gems continuously to increase your power or obtain some kind of consumable that increases your stats in pvp then it would be pay to win, as it stands, you buy the expansion once, your on even standings with everyone else
Its called an expansion pack
in any mmo, PvPers is the most difficult audience to please and full of complaints. So that in GW2 is the same. Sooner or later begin to transfer their frustrations to game mechanics.
….
About elites, I have a revenant, a reaper, but, I love playing in WvW is my good old warrior with hammer.
Lol. / 15 characters.
Ya it became a “problem” when elite specs went from a new play style to straight upgrades somewhere in development.
I wouldn’t nerf the new elite specs into the floor though. I would however take each professions’ class mechanic traitline and make it into an elite spec and buff it to match the new elite specs.
So taking ranger/druid for example,
Beast mastery changed into an elite spec. Buffed up to druid elite spec. Now you can no longer be a beastmastery and a druid at same time.
Until Anet balance elite vs vanilla specs, HoT is p2w for pvp.
VoxL, NSPPT
Until Anet balance elite vs vanilla specs, HoT is p2w for pvp.
If they nerf the new professions below the old ones, what is it then? Pay to lose?
Be careful what you ask for
ANet may give it to you.
ANet may give it to you.
Until Anet balance elite vs vanilla specs, HoT is p2w for pvp.
If they nerf the new professions below the old ones, what is it then? Pay to lose?
Without elite spec, you can’t reach pro league. I think it’s clear enough. So you need to pay for hot just to be able to win and participate in pro leagues ( or just you know, win at all). If vanilla specs were that good, you’d see these in ESL. Or in winning teams in any pvp mode.
VoxL, NSPPT
ERmmm……
Your idea of P2W is so very different from mine, which gaming era did you come from?
I find it absurd and laughable that you are complaining that you are not able to access expansion content while not wanting to pay for the expansion content. Self-entitlement is too strong.
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Until Anet balance elite vs vanilla specs, HoT is p2w for pvp.
At the very most, GW2:HoT could be considered Buy2Win, not Pay2Win, as it has been stated above. Aside from the fact that claiming it is either of those has no good arguments, you can only ever pay just the one time for the “upgrade”. There is absolutely no benefit in investing beyond the cost of the expansion so it is absolutely not Pay2Win.
Until Anet balance elite vs vanilla specs, HoT is p2w for pvp.
If they nerf the new professions below the old ones, what is it then? Pay to lose?
Without elite spec, you can’t reach pro league. I think it’s clear enough. So you need to pay for hot just to be able to win and participate in pro leagues ( or just you know, win at all). If vanilla specs were that good, you’d see these in ESL. Or in winning teams in any pvp mode.
You didn’t answer my question though. I’ll rephrase.
If they nerf the elite specs and they nerf them below the level of the vanilla specs and someone buys the expansion, is it then pay to lose?
Be careful what you ask for
ANet may give it to you.
ANet may give it to you.
Until Anet balance elite vs vanilla specs, HoT is p2w for pvp.
If they nerf the new professions below the old ones, what is it then? Pay to lose?
Without elite spec, you can’t reach pro league. I think it’s clear enough. So you need to pay for hot just to be able to win and participate in pro leagues ( or just you know, win at all). If vanilla specs were that good, you’d see these in ESL. Or in winning teams in any pvp mode.
You didn’t answer my question though. I’ll rephrase.
If they nerf the elite specs and they nerf them below the level of the vanilla specs and someone buys the expansion, is it then pay to lose?
You know it will never happen. Anet needs money , and they need to sell HoT for that. Pretty sure raids have been balanced around elite specs. Imagine if they nerf these spec to oblivion…The only thing Anet can do if buffing vanilla. And give these specs more sustainability, and a LOT more access to C C skills/utilities. Until then, and if you want to be able to compete in pvp, you need to spend $$.
B2W, P2W, whatever, it’s still 50$ just to be able to compete in leagues.
VoxL, NSPPT
(edited by Nausicca.6038)
Until Anet balance elite vs vanilla specs, HoT is p2w for pvp.
If they nerf the new professions below the old ones, what is it then? Pay to lose?
Without elite spec, you can’t reach pro league. I think it’s clear enough. So you need to pay for hot just to be able to win and participate in pro leagues ( or just you know, win at all). If vanilla specs were that good, you’d see these in ESL. Or in winning teams in any pvp mode.
You didn’t answer my question though. I’ll rephrase.
If they nerf the elite specs and they nerf them below the level of the vanilla specs and someone buys the expansion, is it then pay to lose?
You know it will never happen. Anet needs money , and they need to sell HoT for that. Pretty sure raids have been balanced around elite specs. Imagine if they nerf these spec to oblivion…The only thing Anet can do if buffing vanilla. And give these specs more sustainability, and a LOT more access to C C skills/utilities. Until then, and if you want to be able to compete in pvp, you need to spend $$.
B2W, P2W, whatever, it’s still 50$ just to be able to compete in leagues.
You still didn’t answer my question. So I’m going to conclude that you realize that the question is nonsensical and that since it’s the flip side of your p2w argument, that means your argument is nonsensical.
Glad we got that cleared up. ^^
Be careful what you ask for
ANet may give it to you.
ANet may give it to you.
[Thank you for the feedback and discussion, this thread is now closed.]