Guild Wars 2

Godmoney.2048:

P2W? Bro, have you played World of Tanks or Heroes and Generals before? You’re saying GW2 is P2W? Do you have any idea how off base and hyperbolic you sound to us?

I’m a fairly invested Heroes and Generals player. I’ve spent at least 120$ just getting my account baseline playable. You have to pay for every bullet you fire out of a rifle, every shell out of tank, every grenade you throw.

If you think GW2 is p2w you have no idea how much worse some games are. Honestly it’s insulting considering how little GW2 actually costs compared to the shear amount of content available for free.

Shame on you. You can’t save $50 up by the time Thorns comes out? You’ve had literally years now to save up. You still have several months to save the $50 if you even tried.

Way off topic, but PM me how WOT is P2W please…

And yea i agree with the rest though!

Dante.1763:

Godmoney.2048:

P2W? Bro, have you played World of Tanks or Heroes and Generals before? You’re saying GW2 is P2W? Do you have any idea how off base and hyperbolic you sound to us?

I’m a fairly invested Heroes and Generals player. I’ve spent at least 120$ just getting my account baseline playable. You have to pay for every bullet you fire out of a rifle, every shell out of tank, every grenade you throw.

If you think GW2 is p2w you have no idea how much worse some games are. Honestly it’s insulting considering how little GW2 actually costs compared to the shear amount of content available for free.

Shame on you. You can’t save $50 up by the time Thorns comes out? You’ve had literally years now to save up. You still have several months to save the $50 if you even tried.

Way off topic, but PM me how WOT is P2W please…

And yea i agree with the rest though!

My dad plays it. Throwing money at the game repairs your tanks faster without using the in-game normal currency and allows you to use the top-tier rounds (that can only be bought with the in-game special currency), which lets you continually use the best tanks all the time with the best shells. It’s so blatantly P2W. He doesn’t buy stuff though.

MiniEquine.6014:

My dad plays it. Throwing money at the game repairs your tanks faster without using the in-game normal currency and allows you to use the top-tier rounds (that can only be bought with the in-game special currency), which lets you continually use the best tanks all the time with the best shells. It’s so blatantly P2W. He doesn’t buy stuff though.

That is actually wrong, i play world of tanks(26k battles). There is no repair time in world of tanks, all you have to do is have the proper amount of Silver(Regular currency) to repair a tank and its instant, at least on the PC version, i wont play the xbox or mobile versions. You can also not use gold to repair tanks, again at least on the PC version.

The APCR/HEAT/HESH gold rounds(The special currency) are available to be bought for credits as well now(Shells come in two purchasable forms – standard and premium. Standard ammo is always bought with credits. Premium ammo can be bought either with gold or for a large quantity of credits. Premium ammunition usually boasts enhanced capabilities verses the standard ammo available for the same gun. Premium rounds should be used sparingly though, as their great expense makes indiscriminately firing off premium rounds an expensive endeavor. From: http://wiki.wargaming.net/en/Ammo), at least they are on the PC version.
Edit: They are also looking into nerfing “Premium” Ammo so its much closer to the standard ammo and gives less of an advantage to people who buy those shells.

Now, throwing money at world of tanks does allow you to buy premium vehicles(Which are worse than or equal to tanks of the same tier, usually worse.) Which earn 50% more credits and can use crews from the same nation and vehicle type without a penalty.

So it does have a slight pay to win factor..but its nowhere near as bad as other games. And it certainly shouldnt be used to show why GW2 has no pay 2 win factor, as unlike GW2 its a free to play game and they need to make their money somewhere.

For all we know everyone who simply refuses to purchase HoT (seriously why? more content is a godsend), will be queued for PvP together. If so, your queue wait might be ridiculously long, but you wouldn’t have to worry about a balance issue.

Basically all players in a PvP match would need to have the same version of the game.

Simple solution that would prevent the stingy from QQing about P2W PvP balance.

I’m concerned, though, that a lot of the people that are doing the QQing have never played an MMO that has had an expansion before. I mean, most of them raise level caps and give access to more powerful items. How did you all handle that mentally in the past? Just quit the game when an xpac comes out because you refuse to pay for it?

Dante.1763:

MiniEquine.6014:

My dad plays it. Throwing money at the game repairs your tanks faster without using the in-game normal currency and allows you to use the top-tier rounds (that can only be bought with the in-game special currency), which lets you continually use the best tanks all the time with the best shells. It’s so blatantly P2W. He doesn’t buy stuff though.

That is actually wrong, i play world of tanks(26k battles). There is no repair time in world of tanks, all you have to do is have the proper amount of Silver(Regular currency) to repair a tank and its instant, at least on the PC version, i wont play the xbox or mobile versions. You can also not use gold to repair tanks, again at least on the PC version.

The APCR/HEAT/HESH gold rounds(The special currency) are available to be bought for credits as well now(Shells come in two purchasable forms – standard and premium. Standard ammo is always bought with credits. Premium ammo can be bought either with gold or for a large quantity of credits. Premium ammunition usually boasts enhanced capabilities verses the standard ammo available for the same gun. Premium rounds should be used sparingly though, as their great expense makes indiscriminately firing off premium rounds an expensive endeavor. From: http://wiki.wargaming.net/en/Ammo), at least they are on the PC version.
Edit: They are also looking into nerfing “Premium” Ammo so its much closer to the standard ammo and gives less of an advantage to people who buy those shells.

Now, throwing money at world of tanks does allow you to buy premium vehicles(Which are worse than or equal to tanks of the same tier, usually worse.) Which earn 50% more credits and can use crews from the same nation and vehicle type without a penalty.

So it does have a slight pay to win factor..but its nowhere near as bad as other games. And it certainly shouldnt be used to show why GW2 has no pay 2 win factor, as unlike GW2 its a free to play game and they need to make their money somewhere.

Alright, I didn’t know about the repairs, but simply being able to constantly buy the premium ammunition with real money is P2W. The point of P2W is that, to people with loads of money, it doesn’t much matter that it is expensive to do; the fact that they could throw $10,000 at a game and be consistently better off than other players is enough for them.

GW2 is a Buy2Play game. There is nothing you can buy in the gem store that will give you an unfair advantage. The only exception to this is the ability to buy gems, convert those gems to gold, and buy as many legendaries as you want. They should have never implemented the legendary weapons being able to be sold on the TP (IMO), but they have the same stats as ascended weapons and everyone can craft those anyway. Still, where it counts the most for whether a game is P2W the most is when you are going up against other players in PvP. GW2 PvP is almost completely standardized, and the traits you don’t have right away can be bought with some gold, which you would get naturally from doing PvP anyway.

As for the making money part, League of Legends is F2P, and the only things you can buy there are character skins and additional rune slots. You can spend thousands of dollars on that game too, but none of it makes you any better in-game.

MiniEquine.6014:

Alright, I didn’t know about the repairs, but simply being able to constantly buy the premium ammunition with real money is P2W. The point of P2W is that, to people with loads of money, it doesn’t much matter that it is expensive to do; the fact that they could throw $10,000 at a game and be consistently better off than other players is enough for them.

GW2 is a Buy2Play game. There is nothing you can buy in the gem store that will give you an unfair advantage. The only exception to this is the ability to buy gems, convert those gems to gold, and buy as many legendaries as you want. They should have never implemented the legendary weapons being able to be sold on the TP (IMO), but they have the same stats as ascended weapons and everyone can craft those anyway. Still, where it counts the most for whether a game is P2W the most is when you are going up against other players in PvP. GW2 PvP is almost completely standardized, and the traits you don’t have right away can be bought with some gold, which you would get naturally from doing PvP anyway.

As for the making money part, League of Legends is F2P, and the only things you can buy there are character skins and additional rune slots. You can spend thousands of dollars on that game too, but none of it makes you any better in-game.

And thats exactly why they are nerfing premium rounds so they are close to regular rounds, they dont want people to pay to win, they want everyone to be on an equal playing field! Minus player skill of course, which plays a large part of determining who wins or loses a engagement(even gold rounds wont penetrate a tank driven by someone who knows how to angle their armor. I personally laugh each time i come across a gold slinger in my german tanks, because i know how to make them impenetrable from the front unless the person aims at my weakspots, of which their are few!)

I agree legendaries should never have been able to be bought for gold, it was a stupid decision that im very glad they are not doing for the HOT legendaries. And yes again despite never doing PVP i agree, there is no P2W there as you have almost everything unlocked(with the exception of a few amulets, runes, and sigil combos) unlocked from the start, same with everyone else.

Dont play League of legends, but it sounds close to GW2 then if all you can buy are skins and such with real money!

Jerus.4350:

Windsagio.1340:

Jerus.4350:

We’ll see ont he fractal bit, my hopes aren’t very high with the level of power creep we’re seeing.

I think you’re overselling the power creep a little.

They could as simple as raw-scale the crap out of post-50 and power creep would be the least of our problems.

I don’t think so at all. Guard will be able to maintain the support it has while gaining a huge amount of damage. Engi will be able to raise it’s support a ton while likely increasing it’s damage a little. Ele will get slightly better damage with staff, though it’s support options will drop a tad, but staff is already the go to with such high damage. Warrior is just going to be amazing damage while providing 25stacks of might. Only Guardian in that set have we seen the Elite specialization which if goes unchanged will be even more damage on top. Thief is also going to see a boost if the traits go live as is.

But yeah, if we get post 50 fractals that may help, but have they confirmed that? I may have missed it but wasn’t aware of any confirmation on what is to happen with fractals other than specializations, which again I worry will just result in some power creep.

But, you do know me, pessimistic to the end so maybe I am, but everything I’ve seen has pushed me in that direction, it’s not completely unfounded pessimism.

I’m 50/50 on this one:

But first some bookkeeping: They’ve said nothing about fractals beyond the fact that there’s an entire branch of masteries tied to fractals. Still, it reads like an easy win to me, so I’m expecting substantially extended fractals — with one of the mastery tracks involving additional AR so we can get around the equipment track. They also fit the new progression model with masteries quite well.

~~~

On the power creep. I think you’re right, they’ll trivialize current group content, and (possibly) excepting fractals, that content wont’ get buffed. To me that always read as the plan, so I’m relatively cool with it.

The question is what the new content is…. and that’s a HUGE quesiton mark.

At least be happy this isn’t wow where they force you to buy the expansion lol.

I think the biggest question is:

Can we buy the HoT from the gem store or not?

If the answer is yes than everybody has access to it so we cannot even talk about the P2W situation. In the case the answer is actually no… It’s a different story.

Aggrostemma.1703:

I think the biggest question is:

Can we buy the HoT from the gem store or not?

If the answer is yes than everybody has access to it so we cannot even talk about the P2W situation. In the case the answer is actually no… It’s a different story.

The answer is no, and it really doesn’t change anything. Everyone will have access to it for the same price (This is the important part). The only people that claim GW2 is P2W are those that are not yet aware of the difference between P2W content and B2P Expansion content.

its not pay to win, but it is pay for new content. Which i think is ultimately the best model, because it encourages them to make new content.

If i have to pay for anything, new good content is the thing i would most like to buy.

reality is nobody can do anything without money, and if you enjoy a product, you should be willing to pay them something for it.

MiniEquine.6014:

Aggrostemma.1703:

I think the biggest question is:

Can we buy the HoT from the gem store or not?

If the answer is yes than everybody has access to it so we cannot even talk about the P2W situation. In the case the answer is actually no… It’s a different story.

The answer is no, and it really doesn’t change anything. Everyone will have access to it for the same price (This is the important part). The only people that claim GW2 is P2W are those that are not yet aware of the difference between P2W content and B2P Expansion content.

or people who want to argue a moral position that they shouldn’t have to pay.

One possibility is that PvP WILL allow for use of the Elite Spec line even if you don’t purchase HoT (to keep the playing field even). Face it, the code has to be in the game for you to play against it in PvP, so what’s the harm in allowing PvP players (that they are trying to increase) get a free “taste” of HoT?

Not saying it’s gong to happen, but it would certainly remove any “NOT FAIR” and “PAY 2 WIN” whining that could crop up in PvP discussions.

Brother Grimm.5176:

One possibility is that PvP WILL allow for use of the Elite Spec line even if you don’t purchase HoT (to keep the playing field even). Face it, the code has to be in the game for you to play against it in PvP, so what’s the harm in allowing PvP players (that they are trying to increase) get a free “taste” of HoT?

Not saying it’s gong to happen, but it would certainly remove any “NOT FAIR” and “PAY 2 WIN” whining that could crop up in PvP discussions.

The harm is they want people to pay, and then pvp players would have no reason to buy the xpac.

Brother Grimm.5176:

One possibility is that PvP WILL allow for use of the Elite Spec line even if you don’t purchase HoT (to keep the playing field even). Face it, the code has to be in the game for you to play against it in PvP, so what’s the harm in allowing PvP players (that they are trying to increase) get a free “taste” of HoT?

Not saying it’s gong to happen, but it would certainly remove any “NOT FAIR” and “PAY 2 WIN” whining that could crop up in PvP discussions.

they already said that it will be unlocked for pvp if you purchase HoT
lol is very profitable with buying champions or whatever they are called.
best they could hope for is a reduced price spvp only unlock.

Ok look, if a another player gets more abilities than me as a guardian, because he bought heart of thorns, and i still have the standard abilities, than the player who bought heart of thorns has a better variety of ways to defeat me, plus he is automatically more versatile than i am. So that is pay to win my friend, paying for more abilitties and a better class set, is pay to win. Screw that, i regret buying this game.

Avol.9761:

Ok look, if a another player gets more abilities than me as a guardian, because he bought heart of thorns, and i still have the standard abilities, than the player who bought heart of thorns has a better variety of ways to defeat me, plus he is automatically more versatile than i am. So that is pay to win my friend, paying for more abilitties and a better class set, is pay to win. Screw that, i regret buying this game.

thats like saying someone owning more cars will win a race.
so jay leno can beat everyone?

if you regret it thats fine, you simply wanted more than they were willing to give for the price you paid. thats no ones fault

Avol.9761:

Ok look, if a another player gets more abilities than me as a guardian, because he bought heart of thorns, and i still have the standard abilities, than the player who bought heart of thorns has a better variety of ways to defeat me, plus he is automatically more versatile than i am. So that is pay to win my friend, paying for more abilitties and a better class set, is pay to win. Screw that, i regret buying this game.

Back the old question: When has buying an expansion in an MMO become an undue burden?

Yes he is probably stronger than you. The elite specs so far are pretty powerful.

So what? That’s how MMO expansions work. And trying to frame it in catchphrases doesn’t cover that truth.

Windsagio.1340:

Avol.9761:

Ok look, if a another player gets more abilities than me as a guardian, because he bought heart of thorns, and i still have the standard abilities, than the player who bought heart of thorns has a better variety of ways to defeat me, plus he is automatically more versatile than i am. So that is pay to win my friend, paying for more abilitties and a better class set, is pay to win. Screw that, i regret buying this game.

Back the old question: When has buying an expansion in an MMO become an undue burden?

Yes he is probably stronger than you. The elite specs so far are pretty powerful.

So what? That’s how MMO expansions work. And trying to frame it in catchphrases doesn’t cover that truth.

they cant make them stronger without messing up much more than just spvp. it would be a mistake to do so.

Avol.9761:

Ok look, if a another player gets more abilities than me as a guardian, because he bought heart of thorns, and i still have the standard abilities, than the player who bought heart of thorns has a better variety of ways to defeat me, plus he is automatically more versatile than i am. So that is pay to win my friend, paying for more abilitties and a better class set, is pay to win. Screw that, i regret buying this game.

This is a very disingenuous way at looking at expansions. Like others have said, there is no undue burden for buying a single-payment expansion. Sometimes this game goes on sale for $10/$15 too; it’s not likely that such a price would be sustainable for the amount of time that goes into it. When did you buy this game? I bought my second account for $10 with a sale back in January. An additional $30-$60 for the next full area of content and skills is hardly an issue.

Its an kitten expansion. Buy it or quit, is how I look at it.

Why would you continue playing without buying the expansion?

What you should complain about is the real money into game currency. Way more pay to progress faster/winning.

I dont get the problem, it is an expansion… Did you complain about an expansion in the last MMO you played? OMG ppl buying the expansion will get 10 more levels!! Its P2W!

The way i see its its just like the different variants of the rock paper scissors game. Sure there are more options and more things can beat you but there are more things that you will be able to counter.

Old builds and play styles will still be viable since elite specs will be in line with everything else. Chronomancer may counter some current builds but any build with heavy aoe will shut down their f5 quite well for example. So not only does it add to the game on a new level it also makes playstyles that currently exist but are under used able to be taken into consideration and considered viable.

The more specs are added the more outcomes you are adding to your rock paper scissors. See this site to get what i mean : http://mentalfloss.com/article/16253/advanced-rock-paper-scissors-rps-variants

Avol.9761:

Ok look, if a another player gets more abilities than me as a guardian, because he bought heart of thorns, and i still have the standard abilities, than the player who bought heart of thorns has a better variety of ways to defeat me, plus he is automatically more versatile than i am. So that is pay to win my friend, paying for more abilitties and a better class set, is pay to win. Screw that, i regret buying this game.

Don’t other games also introduce completely new professions with new expansions? WoW and Death Knights. Guild Wars 1 and Ritualists, Paragons, Assassins, Dervish. Were there people in those games saying that was pay to win?

Avol.9761:

Ok look, if a another player gets more abilities than me as a guardian, because he bought heart of thorns, and i still have the standard abilities, than the player who bought heart of thorns has a better variety of ways to defeat me, plus he is automatically more versatile than i am. So that is pay to win my friend, paying for more abilitties and a better class set, is pay to win. Screw that, i regret buying this game.

Sounds like MMOs are not for you then, because GW2 is one of the most generous ones out there. A fixed, fairly low price, without a sub. They have given us 2 years of free content on top of that. The base game gives potentially thousands of hours, judging by the number of people that clocked up 3k hours or more, yet you seem to have an issue with a pricetag for a new expansion.

To avoid dissapointment, please stick with single player titles, and buy a new one each month. At least it won’t be P2W by your definition.

Ralanost.8913:

Jerus.4350:

Ralanost.8913:

Jerus.4350:

Windsagio.1340:

Jerus.4350:

We’ll see ont he fractal bit, my hopes aren’t very high with the level of power creep we’re seeing.

I think you’re overselling the power creep a little.

They could as simple as raw-scale the crap out of post-50 and power creep would be the least of our problems.

I don’t think so at all. Guard will be able to maintain the support it has while gaining a huge amount of damage. Engi will be able to raise it’s support a ton while likely increasing it’s damage a little. Ele will get slightly better damage with staff, though it’s support options will drop a tad, but staff is already the go to with such high damage. Warrior is just going to be amazing damage while providing 25stacks of might. Only Guardian in that set have we seen the Elite specialization which if goes unchanged will be even more damage on top. Thief is also going to see a boost if the traits go live as is.

But yeah, if we get post 50 fractals that may help, but have they confirmed that? I may have missed it but wasn’t aware of any confirmation on what is to happen with fractals other than specializations, which again I worry will just result in some power creep.

But, you do know me, pessimistic to the end so maybe I am, but everything I’ve seen has pushed me in that direction, it’s not completely unfounded pessimism.

Numbers are far from final. Saying anything is a huge amount of damage is seeing things in a vacuum with no comparison and also assuming nothing will change. Are you really that naive?

Naive? I think it’s more just my lack of faith in this game. I’ll refer back to my last comment in the quoted.

To elaborate on that a little, I think some of the ideas are awesome, but if they don’t reign in the power creep, I think they’re going in the wrong direction. But, if the powers that be want to push people to get the expansion through the promise of increased power (would not be the first game to do that at all) then so shall it be.

What power creep? There are no new levels, there is no new tier of gear. Elite specs will be on par with core trait lines. If the numbers look large in the ready up videos, maybe it’s the same for the current traits/specs? Don’t assume the worst when you have zero information.

Yup, things could be tweaked. I’m voicing my concern, is that a problem? I could have sworn I heard them ask for feedback in the video.

You don’t need new gear or levels to have power creep. Going from 20-30% in modifiers to 50% in modifiers is power creep, those things add up quick.

Also “You have a new entire skill that didn’t exist before, and aren’t giving up a skill in return”

If this is considered pay to win so is WoW, Swtor, rift etc… Those games actually have a level increase with each expansion.

Jerus.4350:

Ralanost.8913:

Jerus.4350:

Ralanost.8913:

Jerus.4350:

Windsagio.1340:

Jerus.4350:

We’ll see ont he fractal bit, my hopes aren’t very high with the level of power creep we’re seeing.

I think you’re overselling the power creep a little.

They could as simple as raw-scale the crap out of post-50 and power creep would be the least of our problems.

I don’t think so at all. Guard will be able to maintain the support it has while gaining a huge amount of damage. Engi will be able to raise it’s support a ton while likely increasing it’s damage a little. Ele will get slightly better damage with staff, though it’s support options will drop a tad, but staff is already the go to with such high damage. Warrior is just going to be amazing damage while providing 25stacks of might. Only Guardian in that set have we seen the Elite specialization which if goes unchanged will be even more damage on top. Thief is also going to see a boost if the traits go live as is.

But yeah, if we get post 50 fractals that may help, but have they confirmed that? I may have missed it but wasn’t aware of any confirmation on what is to happen with fractals other than specializations, which again I worry will just result in some power creep.

But, you do know me, pessimistic to the end so maybe I am, but everything I’ve seen has pushed me in that direction, it’s not completely unfounded pessimism.

Numbers are far from final. Saying anything is a huge amount of damage is seeing things in a vacuum with no comparison and also assuming nothing will change. Are you really that naive?

Naive? I think it’s more just my lack of faith in this game. I’ll refer back to my last comment in the quoted.

To elaborate on that a little, I think some of the ideas are awesome, but if they don’t reign in the power creep, I think they’re going in the wrong direction. But, if the powers that be want to push people to get the expansion through the promise of increased power (would not be the first game to do that at all) then so shall it be.

What power creep? There are no new levels, there is no new tier of gear. Elite specs will be on par with core trait lines. If the numbers look large in the ready up videos, maybe it’s the same for the current traits/specs? Don’t assume the worst when you have zero information.

Yup, things could be tweaked. I’m voicing my concern, is that a problem? I could have sworn I heard them ask for feedback in the video.

You don’t need new gear or levels to have power creep. Going from 20-30% in modifiers to 50% in modifiers is power creep, those things add up quick.

I’m saying that numbers are in complete flux at the moment. They aren’t even sure of what they want them to be. There has been ZERO outside testing of them. Giving feedback on something they aren’t even sure about is a waste. Give feedback on things that they can actually make use of. Numbers are some of the last things to get worked on before things go live outside of bug squashing. It is simply too early to worry about what trait does what percent.

Ralanost.8913:

Jerus.4350:

Ralanost.8913:

Jerus.4350:

Ralanost.8913:

Jerus.4350:

Windsagio.1340:

Jerus.4350:

We’ll see ont he fractal bit, my hopes aren’t very high with the level of power creep we’re seeing.

I think you’re overselling the power creep a little.

They could as simple as raw-scale the crap out of post-50 and power creep would be the least of our problems.

I don’t think so at all. Guard will be able to maintain the support it has while gaining a huge amount of damage. Engi will be able to raise it’s support a ton while likely increasing it’s damage a little. Ele will get slightly better damage with staff, though it’s support options will drop a tad, but staff is already the go to with such high damage. Warrior is just going to be amazing damage while providing 25stacks of might. Only Guardian in that set have we seen the Elite specialization which if goes unchanged will be even more damage on top. Thief is also going to see a boost if the traits go live as is.

But yeah, if we get post 50 fractals that may help, but have they confirmed that? I may have missed it but wasn’t aware of any confirmation on what is to happen with fractals other than specializations, which again I worry will just result in some power creep.

But, you do know me, pessimistic to the end so maybe I am, but everything I’ve seen has pushed me in that direction, it’s not completely unfounded pessimism.

Numbers are far from final. Saying anything is a huge amount of damage is seeing things in a vacuum with no comparison and also assuming nothing will change. Are you really that naive?

Naive? I think it’s more just my lack of faith in this game. I’ll refer back to my last comment in the quoted.

To elaborate on that a little, I think some of the ideas are awesome, but if they don’t reign in the power creep, I think they’re going in the wrong direction. But, if the powers that be want to push people to get the expansion through the promise of increased power (would not be the first game to do that at all) then so shall it be.

What power creep? There are no new levels, there is no new tier of gear. Elite specs will be on par with core trait lines. If the numbers look large in the ready up videos, maybe it’s the same for the current traits/specs? Don’t assume the worst when you have zero information.

Yup, things could be tweaked. I’m voicing my concern, is that a problem? I could have sworn I heard them ask for feedback in the video.

You don’t need new gear or levels to have power creep. Going from 20-30% in modifiers to 50% in modifiers is power creep, those things add up quick.

I’m saying that numbers are in complete flux at the moment. They aren’t even sure of what they want them to be. There has been ZERO outside testing of them. Giving feedback on something they aren’t even sure about is a waste. Give feedback on things that they can actually make use of. Numbers are some of the last things to get worked on before things go live outside of bug squashing. It is simply too early to worry about what trait does what percent.

So when it goes live and some of these additions go live are you ok with me saying I told you so?

If I’m wrong I welcome an “I told you so” from you, as it’d make me happy

According to the OP, Guild Wars 1 was pay to win because as you bought expansions you got more/better/different elites, not to mention classes. And according to the OP, WoW, Lotro and most MMOs are pay to win, even the subscription ones, because they all sell expansions, without which you can’t reach level cap. According the OP, only a free to play game could be truly free from pay to win because any other game you have to buy to win.

I don’t think the OP knows what pay to win means.

I’d pay for these nonsensical threads to go away.

Seems like the more ridiculous the title of your thread is, the more replies you’re likely to get…

Draknar.5748:

For all we know everyone who simply refuses to purchase HoT (seriously why? more content is a godsend), will be queued for PvP together. If so, your queue wait might be ridiculously long, but you wouldn’t have to worry about a balance issue.

Basically all players in a PvP match would need to have the same version of the game.

That may not be entirely correct. Anet said that Stronghold will come to everyone, expansion or not. What people won’t get is extra content i.e Specializations. All the other traits will be there. You’ll still be able to spec 3 trees.

In other words, you’ll be able to play ranked PvP with everyone. It’s actually a smart marketing choice, really.

Buy the expansion. Problem solved.

Well I don’t know if this means anything or if I’m reading too much into it but from the Spec Part Two Primer

Last paragraph says “As long as you’ve purchased Guild Wars 2: Heart of Thorns, you’ll automatically unlock access to all elite specializations in PvP.”

What if this means those who have not purchased HoT will have to unlock them in Spvp first? Just a tidbit I noticed.

Mar.4839:

Well I don’t know if this means anything or if I’m reading too much into it but from the Spec Part Two Primer

Last paragraph says “As long as you’ve purchased Guild Wars 2: Heart of Thorns, you’ll automatically unlock access to all elite specializations in PvP.”

What if this means those who have not purchased HoT will have to unlock them in Spvp first? Just a tidbit I noticed.

No, if you haven’t purchased HoT, you don’t get access. Period.

as far as i remember it was the same in gw1 , if you didnt buy the expansions you didnt had all skills, seems normal, i dont know any mmo that had an expansion and you had all new skills without buying the expansion

Dante.1763:

MiniEquine.6014:

My dad plays it. Throwing money at the game repairs your tanks faster without using the in-game normal currency and allows you to use the top-tier rounds (that can only be bought with the in-game special currency), which lets you continually use the best tanks all the time with the best shells. It’s so blatantly P2W. He doesn’t buy stuff though.

That is actually wrong, i play world of tanks(26k battles). There is no repair time in world of tanks, all you have to do is have the proper amount of Silver(Regular currency) to repair a tank and its instant, at least on the PC version, i wont play the xbox or mobile versions. You can also not use gold to repair tanks, again at least on the PC version.

The APCR/HEAT/HESH gold rounds(The special currency) are available to be bought for credits as well now(Shells come in two purchasable forms – standard and premium. Standard ammo is always bought with credits. Premium ammo can be bought either with gold or for a large quantity of credits. Premium ammunition usually boasts enhanced capabilities verses the standard ammo available for the same gun. Premium rounds should be used sparingly though, as their great expense makes indiscriminately firing off premium rounds an expensive endeavor. From: http://wiki.wargaming.net/en/Ammo), at least they are on the PC version.
Edit: They are also looking into nerfing “Premium” Ammo so its much closer to the standard ammo and gives less of an advantage to people who buy those shells.

Now, throwing money at world of tanks does allow you to buy premium vehicles(Which are worse than or equal to tanks of the same tier, usually worse.) Which earn 50% more credits and can use crews from the same nation and vehicle type without a penalty.

So it does have a slight pay to win factor..but its nowhere near as bad as other games. And it certainly shouldnt be used to show why GW2 has no pay 2 win factor, as unlike GW2 its a free to play game and they need to make their money somewhere.

Well maybe WOT’s is a bad comparison but my point still stands. I just know that WOT uses a similar pay model to H&G which I find slightly abusive. The WW2 genre can get away with overpriced p2w models because ww2 games are mostly selling to 40 year old guys like me and there’s no other options for ww2 games.

I play H&G every other night. Until Gw2 start charging for every arrow you shoot and every spell you cast there’s no comparison. Gw2 gives you literally 1000’s of hours of gameplay for the low price of 40-10$ depending on a sale happening or not.

The only better value in all of gaming right now is SMITES 30$ God pack that gives you all current, future and past Gods or DOTA because every hero is unlocked day 1.

How can it be PTW in a game that is not free O.o

It’s going to be slightly pay 2 win at least on certain classes. You are limited on what you can do and the elite spec MIGHT be strong at the current meta/patch.

Imagine dagger for the ele would be a elite spec.

Would that be pay 2 win now?

Neox.3497:

It’s going to be slightly pay 2 win at least on certain classes. You are limited on what you can do and the elite spec MIGHT be strong at the current meta/patch.

Imagine dagger for the ele would be a elite spec.

Would that be pay 2 win now?

You can’t apply that here. Expansions aren’t pay to win. They add new content to the entire game that you get access to by paying the fee. You want that content? Buy the expansion. You aren’t entitled to free stuff.

Pay to win would be if they did something like making an epic gear or whatever 10 times more powerful than anything else in game and made it available only through a transaction involving real money. That way, if you spend money to buy that epic gear you are paying to win, since no one without the same gear wouldn’t stand a chance against you, and you HAVE to spend money to get this gear.

GW2 does not do that! You pay for the game, and then you have the option to pay for things like weapon and armor skins, you cannot pay to become a god on the game.

On the expansion, you will pay to get extra content. That extra content involves changes to te classes, but we have no evidence at all that the specializations will be extremely overpowered when compared to the old classes, probably not, since they didn’t even raise the level cap.

More powerful? Probably yes.
Extremely overpowered to the point that any one running a specialization can trash anyone running an old class? Very unlikely.

Ralanost.8913:

Neox.3497:

It’s going to be slightly pay 2 win at least on certain classes. You are limited on what you can do and the elite spec MIGHT be strong at the current meta/patch.

Imagine dagger for the ele would be a elite spec.

Would that be pay 2 win now?

You can’t apply that here. Expansions aren’t pay to win. They add new content to the entire game that you get access to by paying the fee. You want that content? Buy the expansion. You aren’t entitled to free stuff.

What you went completely off topic. And it still doesn’t change the fact, that you can potentially be in a disadvantage without the expansion. Which IS pay to win in some degree.

Elendur.9342:

Pay to win would be if they did something like making an epic gear or whatever 10 times more powerful than anything else in game and made it available only through a transaction involving real money. That way, if you spend money to buy that epic gear you are paying to win, since no one without the same gear wouldn’t stand a chance against you, and you HAVE to spend money to get this gear.

GW2 does not do that! You pay for the game, and then you have the option to pay for things like weapon and armor skins, you cannot pay to become a god on the game.

On the expansion, you will pay to get extra content. That extra content involves changes to te classes, but we have no evidence at all that the specializations will be extremely overpowered when compared to the old classes, probably not, since they didn’t even raise the level cap.

More powerful? Probably yes.
Extremely overpowered to the point that any one running a specialization can trash anyone running an old class? Very unlikely.

Every little advantage that you get by paying with real money IS pay to win.

Pay to win doesn’t mean you always win, it simply means you win more often than you actually should because you paid money to get an advantage.

Ralanost.8913:

Mar.4839:

Well I don’t know if this means anything or if I’m reading too much into it but from the Spec Part Two Primer

Last paragraph says “As long as you’ve purchased Guild Wars 2: Heart of Thorns, you’ll automatically unlock access to all elite specializations in PvP.”

What if this means those who have not purchased HoT will have to unlock them in Spvp first? Just a tidbit I noticed.

No, if you haven’t purchased HoT, you don’t get access. Period.

Seems strange to point that out then, is all I meant.

Also I’m sure the players who really pay attention to the meta will be the ones purchasing the expansion regardless. Top tier raiders from WoW always buy the expansions to keep competitive with each other. I don’t follow the MOBA scene so I’m not sure how it works there but I bet the same thing happens with top tier competitive players in those games too, they probably purchase the heroes that fit the meta.

I feel the people who will be affected by this are so minute that much wouldn’t change in the long run. Besides, barring recent purchasers of the game at discounts, if you had enough disposable income to buy GW2 in the beginning then I’m sure you’ve had enough time to come up with enough for the expansion.

Neox.3497:

Ralanost.8913:

Neox.3497:

It’s going to be slightly pay 2 win at least on certain classes. You are limited on what you can do and the elite spec MIGHT be strong at the current meta/patch.

Imagine dagger for the ele would be a elite spec.

Would that be pay 2 win now?

You can’t apply that here. Expansions aren’t pay to win. They add new content to the entire game that you get access to by paying the fee. You want that content? Buy the expansion. You aren’t entitled to free stuff.

What you went completely off topic. And it still doesn’t change the fact, that you can potentially be in a disadvantage without the expansion. Which IS pay to win in some degree.

Elendur.9342:

Pay to win would be if they did something like making an epic gear or whatever 10 times more powerful than anything else in game and made it available only through a transaction involving real money. That way, if you spend money to buy that epic gear you are paying to win, since no one without the same gear wouldn’t stand a chance against you, and you HAVE to spend money to get this gear.

GW2 does not do that! You pay for the game, and then you have the option to pay for things like weapon and armor skins, you cannot pay to become a god on the game.

On the expansion, you will pay to get extra content. That extra content involves changes to te classes, but we have no evidence at all that the specializations will be extremely overpowered when compared to the old classes, probably not, since they didn’t even raise the level cap.

More powerful? Probably yes.
Extremely overpowered to the point that any one running a specialization can trash anyone running an old class? Very unlikely.

Every little advantage that you get by paying with real money IS pay to win.

Pay to win doesn’t mean you always win, it simply means you win more often than you actually should because you paid money to get an advantage.

Expansions aren’t pay to win. You are just being resentful that you have to spend money after all this time. Just be truthful to yourself. Anyone that wants any of the new content will be getting HoT. If you don’t, you will still get some fundamental changes and still be competitive. Nothing the new content will bring will make anything you have done up to this point useless and invalid. Your fears are beyond paranoid.

Ralanost.8913:

Neox.3497:

Ralanost.8913:

Neox.3497:

It’s going to be slightly pay 2 win at least on certain classes. You are limited on what you can do and the elite spec MIGHT be strong at the current meta/patch.

Imagine dagger for the ele would be a elite spec.

Would that be pay 2 win now?

You can’t apply that here. Expansions aren’t pay to win. They add new content to the entire game that you get access to by paying the fee. You want that content? Buy the expansion. You aren’t entitled to free stuff.

What you went completely off topic. And it still doesn’t change the fact, that you can potentially be in a disadvantage without the expansion. Which IS pay to win in some degree.

Elendur.9342:

Pay to win would be if they did something like making an epic gear or whatever 10 times more powerful than anything else in game and made it available only through a transaction involving real money. That way, if you spend money to buy that epic gear you are paying to win, since no one without the same gear wouldn’t stand a chance against you, and you HAVE to spend money to get this gear.

GW2 does not do that! You pay for the game, and then you have the option to pay for things like weapon and armor skins, you cannot pay to become a god on the game.

On the expansion, you will pay to get extra content. That extra content involves changes to te classes, but we have no evidence at all that the specializations will be extremely overpowered when compared to the old classes, probably not, since they didn’t even raise the level cap.

More powerful? Probably yes.
Extremely overpowered to the point that any one running a specialization can trash anyone running an old class? Very unlikely.

Every little advantage that you get by paying with real money IS pay to win.

Pay to win doesn’t mean you always win, it simply means you win more often than you actually should because you paid money to get an advantage.

Expansions aren’t pay to win. You are just being resentful that you have to spend money after all this time. Just be truthful to yourself. Anyone that wants any of the new content will be getting HoT. If you don’t, you will still get some fundamental changes and still be competitive. Nothing the new content will bring will make anything you have done up to this point useless and invalid. Your fears are beyond paranoid.

You totally missed the point. I will buy the expansion anyway so there are no fears at all. LOL
I’m just stating that you MIGHT get an advantage by buying the expansion and by not buying it you MIGHT get a disadvantage.
But I think the chances are very high because otherwise all elite specs will be weak and to say the will be balanced is dream thinking. There will always be stronger and weaker builds, maybe depending on the current meta.

Neox.3497:

Ralanost.8913:

Neox.3497:

Ralanost.8913:

Neox.3497:

It’s going to be slightly pay 2 win at least on certain classes. You are limited on what you can do and the elite spec MIGHT be strong at the current meta/patch.

Imagine dagger for the ele would be a elite spec.

Would that be pay 2 win now?

You can’t apply that here. Expansions aren’t pay to win. They add new content to the entire game that you get access to by paying the fee. You want that content? Buy the expansion. You aren’t entitled to free stuff.

What you went completely off topic. And it still doesn’t change the fact, that you can potentially be in a disadvantage without the expansion. Which IS pay to win in some degree.

Elendur.9342:

Pay to win would be if they did something like making an epic gear or whatever 10 times more powerful than anything else in game and made it available only through a transaction involving real money. That way, if you spend money to buy that epic gear you are paying to win, since no one without the same gear wouldn’t stand a chance against you, and you HAVE to spend money to get this gear.

GW2 does not do that! You pay for the game, and then you have the option to pay for things like weapon and armor skins, you cannot pay to become a god on the game.

On the expansion, you will pay to get extra content. That extra content involves changes to te classes, but we have no evidence at all that the specializations will be extremely overpowered when compared to the old classes, probably not, since they didn’t even raise the level cap.

More powerful? Probably yes.
Extremely overpowered to the point that any one running a specialization can trash anyone running an old class? Very unlikely.

Every little advantage that you get by paying with real money IS pay to win.

Pay to win doesn’t mean you always win, it simply means you win more often than you actually should because you paid money to get an advantage.

Expansions aren’t pay to win. You are just being resentful that you have to spend money after all this time. Just be truthful to yourself. Anyone that wants any of the new content will be getting HoT. If you don’t, you will still get some fundamental changes and still be competitive. Nothing the new content will bring will make anything you have done up to this point useless and invalid. Your fears are beyond paranoid.

You totally missed the point. I will buy the expansion anyway so there are no fears at all. LOL
I’m just stating that you MIGHT get an advantage by buying the expansion and by not buying it you MIGHT get a disadvantage.
But I think the chances are very high because otherwise all elite specs will be weak and to say the will be balanced is dream thinking. There will always be stronger and weaker builds, maybe depending on the current meta.

Of course it won’t be perfectly balanced. Never has been, never will be. Some new specs won’t be part of the meta, others will. I fail to see your point. It’s like you want it to be a p2w situation when it can’t be. The meta will change, the new traits will make some builds better and some worse. Those without HoT will have access to some of it. Some of it might be part of the meta, some won’t. Meaning having the expansion gives no inherent advantage, just more options. It’s not like you can change your build mid match.

Neox.3497:

Ralanost.8913:

Neox.3497:

Ralanost.8913:

Neox.3497:

It’s going to be slightly pay 2 win at least on certain classes. You are limited on what you can do and the elite spec MIGHT be strong at the current meta/patch.

Imagine dagger for the ele would be a elite spec.

Would that be pay 2 win now?

You can’t apply that here. Expansions aren’t pay to win. They add new content to the entire game that you get access to by paying the fee. You want that content? Buy the expansion. You aren’t entitled to free stuff.

What you went completely off topic. And it still doesn’t change the fact, that you can potentially be in a disadvantage without the expansion. Which IS pay to win in some degree.

Elendur.9342:

Pay to win would be if they did something like making an epic gear or whatever 10 times more powerful than anything else in game and made it available only through a transaction involving real money. That way, if you spend money to buy that epic gear you are paying to win, since no one without the same gear wouldn’t stand a chance against you, and you HAVE to spend money to get this gear.

GW2 does not do that! You pay for the game, and then you have the option to pay for things like weapon and armor skins, you cannot pay to become a god on the game.

On the expansion, you will pay to get extra content. That extra content involves changes to te classes, but we have no evidence at all that the specializations will be extremely overpowered when compared to the old classes, probably not, since they didn’t even raise the level cap.

More powerful? Probably yes.
Extremely overpowered to the point that any one running a specialization can trash anyone running an old class? Very unlikely.

Every little advantage that you get by paying with real money IS pay to win.

Pay to win doesn’t mean you always win, it simply means you win more often than you actually should because you paid money to get an advantage.

Expansions aren’t pay to win. You are just being resentful that you have to spend money after all this time. Just be truthful to yourself. Anyone that wants any of the new content will be getting HoT. If you don’t, you will still get some fundamental changes and still be competitive. Nothing the new content will bring will make anything you have done up to this point useless and invalid. Your fears are beyond paranoid.

You totally missed the point. I will buy the expansion anyway so there are no fears at all. LOL
I’m just stating that you MIGHT get an advantage by buying the expansion and by not buying it you MIGHT get a disadvantage.
But I think the chances are very high because otherwise all elite specs will be weak and to say the will be balanced is dream thinking. There will always be stronger and weaker builds, maybe depending on the current meta.

So are you saying that it might be pay to win until they manage to balance all of it and depending on the meta?

It is not pay to win. The specializations will certainly be better, since if we both play as rangers but my ranger can equip a staff and your ranger can’t, that means my ranger can do one thing yours can’t, therefore it is better. But that does not mean that having a staff makes me unbeatable, or overpower, or even mean that the staff is better than the longbow that you can equip as well.

It just means that I have an extra option.

It will not be balanced because the game is not 100% perfectly balanced yet. Maybe specializations will be OP, maybe they will be competitive with the older classes, just giving the player more options (notice that I ditched the term ‘powerful’ that I sed before) than older classes, or maybe even some of them will suck and at the end for a while before we get the nerfs and buffs and a druid end up being weaker than a mesmer…

We can’t know details for sure yet, but it is not pay to win.

Elendur.9342:

Neox.3497:

Ralanost.8913:

Neox.3497:

Ralanost.8913:

Neox.3497:

It’s going to be slightly pay 2 win at least on certain classes. You are limited on what you can do and the elite spec MIGHT be strong at the current meta/patch.

Imagine dagger for the ele would be a elite spec.

Would that be pay 2 win now?

You can’t apply that here. Expansions aren’t pay to win. They add new content to the entire game that you get access to by paying the fee. You want that content? Buy the expansion. You aren’t entitled to free stuff.

What you went completely off topic. And it still doesn’t change the fact, that you can potentially be in a disadvantage without the expansion. Which IS pay to win in some degree.

Elendur.9342:

Pay to win would be if they did something like making an epic gear or whatever 10 times more powerful than anything else in game and made it available only through a transaction involving real money. That way, if you spend money to buy that epic gear you are paying to win, since no one without the same gear wouldn’t stand a chance against you, and you HAVE to spend money to get this gear.

GW2 does not do that! You pay for the game, and then you have the option to pay for things like weapon and armor skins, you cannot pay to become a god on the game.

On the expansion, you will pay to get extra content. That extra content involves changes to te classes, but we have no evidence at all that the specializations will be extremely overpowered when compared to the old classes, probably not, since they didn’t even raise the level cap.

More powerful? Probably yes.
Extremely overpowered to the point that any one running a specialization can trash anyone running an old class? Very unlikely.

Every little advantage that you get by paying with real money IS pay to win.

Pay to win doesn’t mean you always win, it simply means you win more often than you actually should because you paid money to get an advantage.

Expansions aren’t pay to win. You are just being resentful that you have to spend money after all this time. Just be truthful to yourself. Anyone that wants any of the new content will be getting HoT. If you don’t, you will still get some fundamental changes and still be competitive. Nothing the new content will bring will make anything you have done up to this point useless and invalid. Your fears are beyond paranoid.

You totally missed the point. I will buy the expansion anyway so there are no fears at all. LOL
I’m just stating that you MIGHT get an advantage by buying the expansion and by not buying it you MIGHT get a disadvantage.
But I think the chances are very high because otherwise all elite specs will be weak and to say the will be balanced is dream thinking. There will always be stronger and weaker builds, maybe depending on the current meta.

So are you saying that it might be pay to win until they manage to balance all of it and depending on the meta?

It is not pay to win. The specializations will certainly be better, since if we both play as rangers but my ranger can equip a staff and your ranger can’t, that means my ranger can do one thing yours can’t, therefore it is better. But that does not mean that having a staff makes me unbeatable, or overpower, or even mean that the staff is better than the longbow that you can equip as well.

It just means that I have an extra option.

It will not be balanced because the game is not 100% perfectly balanced yet. Maybe specializations will be OP, maybe they will be competitive with the older classes, just giving the player more options (notice that I ditched the term ‘powerful’ that I sed before) than older classes, or maybe even some of them will suck and at the end for a while before we get the nerfs and buffs and a druid end up being weaker than a mesmer…

We can’t know details for sure yet, but it is not pay to win.

As I already said the slightest advantage IS pay to win for me. And since elite specs won’t be bad or 100% balanced you WILL have an advantage. It’s quite simple.

So any addition to content that is sold instead of given to the player is pay to win.

Basically, game expansions are pay to win, by that logic.

You should really stay away from free to play games…