Guild Wars 2

Elendur.9342:

Neox.3497:

Ralanost.8913:

Neox.3497:

Ralanost.8913:

Neox.3497:

It’s going to be slightly pay 2 win at least on certain classes. You are limited on what you can do and the elite spec MIGHT be strong at the current meta/patch.

Imagine dagger for the ele would be a elite spec.

Would that be pay 2 win now?

You can’t apply that here. Expansions aren’t pay to win. They add new content to the entire game that you get access to by paying the fee. You want that content? Buy the expansion. You aren’t entitled to free stuff.

What you went completely off topic. And it still doesn’t change the fact, that you can potentially be in a disadvantage without the expansion. Which IS pay to win in some degree.

Elendur.9342:

Pay to win would be if they did something like making an epic gear or whatever 10 times more powerful than anything else in game and made it available only through a transaction involving real money. That way, if you spend money to buy that epic gear you are paying to win, since no one without the same gear wouldn’t stand a chance against you, and you HAVE to spend money to get this gear.

GW2 does not do that! You pay for the game, and then you have the option to pay for things like weapon and armor skins, you cannot pay to become a god on the game.

On the expansion, you will pay to get extra content. That extra content involves changes to te classes, but we have no evidence at all that the specializations will be extremely overpowered when compared to the old classes, probably not, since they didn’t even raise the level cap.

More powerful? Probably yes.
Extremely overpowered to the point that any one running a specialization can trash anyone running an old class? Very unlikely.

Every little advantage that you get by paying with real money IS pay to win.

Pay to win doesn’t mean you always win, it simply means you win more often than you actually should because you paid money to get an advantage.

Expansions aren’t pay to win. You are just being resentful that you have to spend money after all this time. Just be truthful to yourself. Anyone that wants any of the new content will be getting HoT. If you don’t, you will still get some fundamental changes and still be competitive. Nothing the new content will bring will make anything you have done up to this point useless and invalid. Your fears are beyond paranoid.

You totally missed the point. I will buy the expansion anyway so there are no fears at all. LOL
I’m just stating that you MIGHT get an advantage by buying the expansion and by not buying it you MIGHT get a disadvantage.
But I think the chances are very high because otherwise all elite specs will be weak and to say the will be balanced is dream thinking. There will always be stronger and weaker builds, maybe depending on the current meta.

So are you saying that it might be pay to win until they manage to balance all of it and depending on the meta?

It is not pay to win. The specializations will certainly be better, since if we both play as rangers but my ranger can equip a staff and your ranger can’t, that means my ranger can do one thing yours can’t, therefore it is better. But that does not mean that having a staff makes me unbeatable, or overpower, or even mean that the staff is better than the longbow that you can equip as well.

It just means that I have an extra option.

It will not be balanced because the game is not 100% perfectly balanced yet. Maybe specializations will be OP, maybe they will be competitive with the older classes, just giving the player more options (notice that I ditched the term ‘powerful’ that I sed before) than older classes, or maybe even some of them will suck and at the end for a while before we get the nerfs and buffs and a druid end up being weaker than a mesmer…

We can’t know details for sure yet, but it is not pay to win.

Just because you have the option of the elite spec doesn’t make you any better than any other ranger. It’s an extra option. It’s just a new build. They will have no more power to kill someone else, no more defense than someone else. They just have different skills that means you have to fight them a different way. There is ZERO advantage.

Let’s be fair.. those who play gw2 will be getting HoT.. why wouldn’t they

Neox.3497:

Elendur.9342:

Neox.3497:

Ralanost.8913:

Neox.3497:

Ralanost.8913:

Neox.3497:

It’s going to be slightly pay 2 win at least on certain classes. You are limited on what you can do and the elite spec MIGHT be strong at the current meta/patch.

Imagine dagger for the ele would be a elite spec.

Would that be pay 2 win now?

You can’t apply that here. Expansions aren’t pay to win. They add new content to the entire game that you get access to by paying the fee. You want that content? Buy the expansion. You aren’t entitled to free stuff.

What you went completely off topic. And it still doesn’t change the fact, that you can potentially be in a disadvantage without the expansion. Which IS pay to win in some degree.

Elendur.9342:

Pay to win would be if they did something like making an epic gear or whatever 10 times more powerful than anything else in game and made it available only through a transaction involving real money. That way, if you spend money to buy that epic gear you are paying to win, since no one without the same gear wouldn’t stand a chance against you, and you HAVE to spend money to get this gear.

GW2 does not do that! You pay for the game, and then you have the option to pay for things like weapon and armor skins, you cannot pay to become a god on the game.

On the expansion, you will pay to get extra content. That extra content involves changes to te classes, but we have no evidence at all that the specializations will be extremely overpowered when compared to the old classes, probably not, since they didn’t even raise the level cap.

More powerful? Probably yes.
Extremely overpowered to the point that any one running a specialization can trash anyone running an old class? Very unlikely.

Every little advantage that you get by paying with real money IS pay to win.

Pay to win doesn’t mean you always win, it simply means you win more often than you actually should because you paid money to get an advantage.

Expansions aren’t pay to win. You are just being resentful that you have to spend money after all this time. Just be truthful to yourself. Anyone that wants any of the new content will be getting HoT. If you don’t, you will still get some fundamental changes and still be competitive. Nothing the new content will bring will make anything you have done up to this point useless and invalid. Your fears are beyond paranoid.

You totally missed the point. I will buy the expansion anyway so there are no fears at all. LOL
I’m just stating that you MIGHT get an advantage by buying the expansion and by not buying it you MIGHT get a disadvantage.
But I think the chances are very high because otherwise all elite specs will be weak and to say the will be balanced is dream thinking. There will always be stronger and weaker builds, maybe depending on the current meta.

So are you saying that it might be pay to win until they manage to balance all of it and depending on the meta?

It is not pay to win. The specializations will certainly be better, since if we both play as rangers but my ranger can equip a staff and your ranger can’t, that means my ranger can do one thing yours can’t, therefore it is better. But that does not mean that having a staff makes me unbeatable, or overpower, or even mean that the staff is better than the longbow that you can equip as well.

It just means that I have an extra option.

It will not be balanced because the game is not 100% perfectly balanced yet. Maybe specializations will be OP, maybe they will be competitive with the older classes, just giving the player more options (notice that I ditched the term ‘powerful’ that I sed before) than older classes, or maybe even some of them will suck and at the end for a while before we get the nerfs and buffs and a druid end up being weaker than a mesmer…

We can’t know details for sure yet, but it is not pay to win.

As I already said the slightest advantage IS pay to win for me. And since elite specs won’t be bad or 100% balanced you WILL have an advantage. It’s quite simple.

Sorry, but you’ve got a complete misunderstanding between Pay2Win and Expansion Buy2Play.

Pay2Win:
There exists a set of features for the game, available to all customers, that allow for continual, repeat micro-transactions that, by spending more money on these micro-transactions than other people, give a distinct advantage in game.

Expansion Buy2Play:
There exists an expansion for the game, available to all customers, that allows for a potential increase in content, skills, levels, gear, and story for a fixed price. No additional payments are accepted or, if they are accepted, have no effect on the player in a competitive sense.

Neox.3497:

As I already said the slightest advantage IS pay to win for me. And since elite specs won’t be bad or 100% balanced you WILL have an advantage. It’s quite simple.

Except you aren’t playing the same game anymore. You are playing Guild Wars 2, everyone else is playing Guild Wars 2: Heart of Thorns. You can’t compare the two.

You are trying to argue for being able to either have access to all specializations in PvP without paying for the expansion, or not allowing people who have paid for the expansion to use their specializations in PvP. Do you not see a problem with this?

I really hope, for the sake of people like you who feel this way, that they let GW2 purists (which I will call you guys from now on) to be able to play PvP with each other and no one else. And further, I honestly hope that there are so few people that fall into this category that you/they can no longer even play PvP. You won’t have to worry about balance if you physically can’t play PvP with anyone.

Does this make me a bad person?

Draknar.5748:

Neox.3497:

As I already said the slightest advantage IS pay to win for me. And since elite specs won’t be bad or 100% balanced you WILL have an advantage. It’s quite simple.

Except you aren’t playing the same game anymore. You are playing Guild Wars 2, everyone else is playing Guild Wars 2: Heart of Thorns. You can’t compare the two.

You are trying to argue for being able to either have access to all specializations in PvP without paying for the expansion, or not allowing people who have paid for the expansion to use their specializations in PvP. Do you not see a problem with this?

I really hope, for the sake of people like you who feel this way, that they let GW2 purists (which I will call you guys from now on) to be able to play PvP with each other and no one else. And further, I honestly hope that there are so few people that fall into this category that you/they can no longer even play PvP. You won’t have to worry about balance if you physically can’t play PvP with anyone.

Does this make me a bad person?

This is how it normally works in other games. All the expansion players move on to the next content while those who don’t buy it are stuck in long queues because there’s nobody left. I don’t see why they couldn’t implement something like this, since GW2 expansions are unlike any other game already.

Pretty sure elites will be better to start to sell the xpac, then get dialed down over time.

Just like every other MMO xpac released…

Draknar.5748:

Neox.3497:

As I already said the slightest advantage IS pay to win for me. And since elite specs won’t be bad or 100% balanced you WILL have an advantage. It’s quite simple.

Except you aren’t playing the same game anymore. You are playing Guild Wars 2, everyone else is playing Guild Wars 2: Heart of Thorns. You can’t compare the two.

You are trying to argue for being able to either have access to all specializations in PvP without paying for the expansion, or not allowing people who have paid for the expansion to use their specializations in PvP. Do you not see a problem with this?

I really hope, for the sake of people like you who feel this way, that they let GW2 purists (which I will call you guys from now on) to be able to play PvP with each other and no one else. And further, I honestly hope that there are so few people that fall into this category that you/they can no longer even play PvP. You won’t have to worry about balance if you physically can’t play PvP with anyone.

Does this make me a bad person?

WTF I never said I won’t buy the expansion. I even said already I will buy it.

It’s about the fact that it will be SLIGHTLY pay 2 win and the important part is “slightly”.
Also yes with a seperated queue it wouldn’t be anymore but I don’t even want that.
Guildwars PvP is only a little part of Guildwars and with the current price (in sales) you get more than enough content to justice the little disadvatage you will have in PvP.

The majority won’t say “Guildwars 2 is pay 2 win” because
1. PvP is only a small part of GW2
2. The advantage will probably be minimalistic

The only exception would be if the elite specs will be way too powerfull which probably won’t happen.

And to make it clear I HAVE NO PROBLEM THAT NON-HOTS PLAYERS (or GW2 purists, how you call them) WILL PLAY VERSUS HOTS PLAYERS in PvP.
They should know that they can’t use all the skills the others have and if they really want to get the whole (and 100% fair) PvP part of GW2 they will have to pay for it.

So every game that added classes or class specs to their expansions are P2W.

That is one very twisted way of looking at this. I honestly don’t think you get what P2W in.

Ephemiel.5694:

So every game that added classes or class specs to their expansions are P2W.

That is one very twisted way of looking at this. I honestly don’t think you get what P2W in.

Yes they are.

For me the slightest advantage is pay 2 win.

But I have no problem when it’s in an MMO.

Neox.3497:

Ephemiel.5694:

So every game that added classes or class specs to their expansions are P2W.

That is one very twisted way of looking at this. I honestly don’t think you get what P2W in.

Yes they are.

For me the slightest advantage is pay 2 win.

But I have no problem when it’s in an MMO.

This is the problem with language. We use words to communicate. When we start making up our own definition of words and then use it in a post we cease to communicate. That’s why I try to use grind and farm differently (because they originally were different things).

It’s okay to rewrite the definition of a word in your mind but when you then try to use it on a forum, well then it gets hairy.

By your definition every game that sells for money is pay to win, because you have to buy it to win it. Guild Wars 2 was pay to win because if you don’t spend money you can’t play the game.

The words pay to win were created to denote and tag a specific type of game. A game where without the cash shop, without continually spending money, you couldn’t compete with people. That’s what pay to win has meant.

As you keep trying to move the language bar, you help no one. If every game does this, isn’t nothing to comment on. You’ve changed the definition of the phrase and you expect others to now agree with your altered definition.

Language and communication don’t work that way. It’s okay for you to change the definition of word. It’s not okay to claim it’s the actual definition.

Vayne.8563:

Neox.3497:

Ephemiel.5694:

So every game that added classes or class specs to their expansions are P2W.

That is one very twisted way of looking at this. I honestly don’t think you get what P2W in.

Yes they are.

For me the slightest advantage is pay 2 win.

But I have no problem when it’s in an MMO.

This is the problem with language. We use words to communicate. When we start making up our own definition of words and then use it in a post we cease to communicate. That’s why I try to use grind and farm differently (because they originally were different things).

It’s okay to rewrite the definition of a word in your mind but when you then try to use it on a forum, well then it gets hairy.

By your definition every game that sells for money is pay to win, because you have to buy it to win it. Guild Wars 2 was pay to win because if you don’t spend money you can’t play the game.

The words pay to win were created to denote and tag a specific type of game. A game where without the cash shop, without continually spending money, you couldn’t compete with people. That’s what pay to win has meant.

As you keep trying to move the language bar, you help no one. If every game does this, isn’t nothing to comment on. You’ve changed the definition of the phrase and you expect others to now agree with your altered definition.

Language and communication don’t work that way. It’s okay for you to change the definition of word. It’s not okay to claim it’s the actual definition.

But GW2:HoT isn’t a game it’s an expansion.
You can see the expansion as an item in the cash shop (= only available with real cash) and surprise, surprise! It fits your definition of pay 2 win.

Neox.3497:

Vayne.8563:

Neox.3497:

Ephemiel.5694:

So every game that added classes or class specs to their expansions are P2W.

That is one very twisted way of looking at this. I honestly don’t think you get what P2W in.

Yes they are.

For me the slightest advantage is pay 2 win.

But I have no problem when it’s in an MMO.

This is the problem with language. We use words to communicate. When we start making up our own definition of words and then use it in a post we cease to communicate. That’s why I try to use grind and farm differently (because they originally were different things).

It’s okay to rewrite the definition of a word in your mind but when you then try to use it on a forum, well then it gets hairy.

By your definition every game that sells for money is pay to win, because you have to buy it to win it. Guild Wars 2 was pay to win because if you don’t spend money you can’t play the game.

The words pay to win were created to denote and tag a specific type of game. A game where without the cash shop, without continually spending money, you couldn’t compete with people. That’s what pay to win has meant.

As you keep trying to move the language bar, you help no one. If every game does this, isn’t nothing to comment on. You’ve changed the definition of the phrase and you expect others to now agree with your altered definition.

Language and communication don’t work that way. It’s okay for you to change the definition of word. It’s not okay to claim it’s the actual definition.

But GW2:HoT isn’t a game it’s an expansion.
You can see the expansion as an item in the cash shop (= only available with real cash) and surprise, surprise! It fits your definition of pay 2 win.

You cannot see an entire expansion as an item in a cash shop.

Your view is incredibly twisted.

Ephemiel.5694:

You cannot see an entire expansion as an item in a cash shop.

Your view is incredibly twisted.

You said what i was going to say in like… 1/8 of the words..

Even if it is pay to win so what, other subscription MMO have done it, essentially means every MMORPG is pay to win thereby making the phrase “pay to win” worthless.

Neox.3497:

Vayne.8563:

Neox.3497:

Ephemiel.5694:

So every game that added classes or class specs to their expansions are P2W.

That is one very twisted way of looking at this. I honestly don’t think you get what P2W in.

Yes they are.

For me the slightest advantage is pay 2 win.

But I have no problem when it’s in an MMO.

This is the problem with language. We use words to communicate. When we start making up our own definition of words and then use it in a post we cease to communicate. That’s why I try to use grind and farm differently (because they originally were different things).

It’s okay to rewrite the definition of a word in your mind but when you then try to use it on a forum, well then it gets hairy.

By your definition every game that sells for money is pay to win, because you have to buy it to win it. Guild Wars 2 was pay to win because if you don’t spend money you can’t play the game.

The words pay to win were created to denote and tag a specific type of game. A game where without the cash shop, without continually spending money, you couldn’t compete with people. That’s what pay to win has meant.

As you keep trying to move the language bar, you help no one. If every game does this, isn’t nothing to comment on. You’ve changed the definition of the phrase and you expect others to now agree with your altered definition.

Language and communication don’t work that way. It’s okay for you to change the definition of word. It’s not okay to claim it’s the actual definition.

But GW2:HoT isn’t a game it’s an expansion.
You can see the expansion as an item in the cash shop (= only available with real cash) and surprise, surprise! It fits your definition of pay 2 win.

You clearly can’t see the difference between the intention of a word and the actual word. No it doesn’t fit my definition of pay to win at all.

Again, the term pay to win was created to identify a very specific type of game, not something every single game does. There would have been no purpose on that. You’re trying to use a technicality to cloud the actual meaning, which is what lawyers do.

If you define evil as being X and everyone is doing that one thing then everyone is evil. But if everyone is evil then evil loses all meaning. There is no evil without good. Without good, evil doesn’t exist. It can’t exist in a vacuum.

The term pay to win was designed to deal with a specific unethical practice of allowing people to buy power, consistently through cash shop sales. Anet is selling you an expansion but it’s not JUST power. They’re selling you an entirely new area of the game. They’re saying you, and anyone, can access this for a single one time price.

People aren’t usually buying an expansion to get more power. They’re buying an expansion to get more content. It’s like going on a plane and getting a free meal and then saying that I have an advantage because I’m getting more food than someone. The purpose isn’t to pedal power. They’re not trying to get rich off pedaling power. They’re very legitimately selling an expansion.

If you can’t see the difference between these situations, there really is nothing to talk about.

Sorry OP but an expansion is not pay to win. It would be different if the only gear avaliable to people is masterwork and if you want ascended gear you have to buy it off the cash shop but that is not the case here.

Things need to be added to an expansion that is only avaliable to people who have the expansion. That’s how it’s always been. One thing I can say about elite specs alone is that while you do not deal more damage (like chronomancers deal 20% more damage than normal mesmers) the elite specs do offer different play styles.

Even if there were skills or builds in the expansion that would make you more powerful, the game still wouldn’t, in my opinion, be pay to win, even if you could massage the language to make it look that way.

Let’s say I saw a man attacking another man with a bat and I was strong and brave enough to take the bat away from him. It may very well be true that I “stole” the bat from him. But if he were to then post on a forum that I was a thief, that would be completely misleading.

Saying a game expansion is pay to win because it offers options or skills not in the base game is a similar form of misdirection. The words pay to win are there to indicate that company is doing something wrong.

I’m wondering if the OP could point out a single MMORPG that isn’t pay to win by his definition.

erm if u think an expansion that brings a few new changes and class specific is pay to win then u clearly have no clue about pay to win. play an r2 game once and u will see pay to win. pay to win would be for example that u can buy monthly vip and vips can gain acces to special areas or farm a dungeon 5 times daily instead of non vip 2 times a day some p2win games would even do a level cap for non vips etc. that is pay to win.

1 expansion that brings new class specifications and a new class is def not a pay to win thing its a 1 time fixed price…. and who knows if they make it like dc universe u can maybe buy specialisations for each class in the gems store and u can get gems with gold…who knows. anyways dont call this pay to win as it is clearly not.

Oke so new expansion is P2W…
Emmm… nope? Let’s check out confirmed stuff

• Desert map will swap with Alpine Borderland so yeah WvW map included.
• New traits also.
• Same goes for skins from HoT – u will be able to buy em at TP!
• Achivement to earn precursor
• Masteries for old content like fractals etc.
• WvW’s shield enginee – new siege machine

The stuff u are buying:

• Revenant class
• New maps, dungs and some account skins
• Elite specs – not such op tho if u look at traits and skills for mesmer for example.
• New masteries like glider, that will be only usable in HoT maps!
• Learning languages of HoT races

Now not confirmed to be free or buy stuff:

• Stronghold
• Guildhalls
• Ways to obtain new mats that come into game with HoT
• New Legendaries
• New monsters – will they appear in normal world? Or HoT only?
• Defiance – do old bosses get it too? Or only HoT bosses?

Definition of P2W that mmo gamers know: P2W is a stuff u obtain for real money and that is much more powerfull than best in game items / almost best items. Also it is about doing much more dungs / raids / and other daily stuff for some real money.

In GW2 here are some examples how P2W would look: No more gold -> gems. 3x More tokens from dungs if u get VIP for gems ofcourse. Legendary armor only from TP that will be by 130% of Ascended. WvW queue priority. Access to specials items that evolve ur skills for some amount of gems etc. etc.

So expansion that don’t even unbalance game like WoW’s ones( higher lvl cap, better items etc.) isn’t big deal. Tbh it just gives u more cosmetic changes like masteries or new specializations and some new stuff to do like new maps.

Vayne.8563:

Neox.3497:

Vayne.8563:

Neox.3497:

Ephemiel.5694:

So every game that added classes or class specs to their expansions are P2W.

That is one very twisted way of looking at this. I honestly don’t think you get what P2W in.

Yes they are.

For me the slightest advantage is pay 2 win.

But I have no problem when it’s in an MMO.

This is the problem with language. We use words to communicate. When we start making up our own definition of words and then use it in a post we cease to communicate. That’s why I try to use grind and farm differently (because they originally were different things).

It’s okay to rewrite the definition of a word in your mind but when you then try to use it on a forum, well then it gets hairy.

By your definition every game that sells for money is pay to win, because you have to buy it to win it. Guild Wars 2 was pay to win because if you don’t spend money you can’t play the game.

The words pay to win were created to denote and tag a specific type of game. A game where without the cash shop, without continually spending money, you couldn’t compete with people. That’s what pay to win has meant.

As you keep trying to move the language bar, you help no one. If every game does this, isn’t nothing to comment on. You’ve changed the definition of the phrase and you expect others to now agree with your altered definition.

Language and communication don’t work that way. It’s okay for you to change the definition of word. It’s not okay to claim it’s the actual definition.

But GW2:HoT isn’t a game it’s an expansion.
You can see the expansion as an item in the cash shop (= only available with real cash) and surprise, surprise! It fits your definition of pay 2 win.

You clearly can’t see the difference between the intention of a word and the actual word. No it doesn’t fit my definition of pay to win at all.

Again, the term pay to win was created to identify a very specific type of game, not something every single game does. There would have been no purpose on that. You’re trying to use a technicality to cloud the actual meaning, which is what lawyers do.

If you define evil as being X and everyone is doing that one thing then everyone is evil. But if everyone is evil then evil loses all meaning. There is no evil without good. Without good, evil doesn’t exist. It can’t exist in a vacuum.

The term pay to win was designed to deal with a specific unethical practice of allowing people to buy power, consistently through cash shop sales. Anet is selling you an expansion but it’s not JUST power. They’re selling you an entirely new area of the game. They’re saying you, and anyone, can access this for a single one time price.

People aren’t usually buying an expansion to get more power. They’re buying an expansion to get more content. It’s like going on a plane and getting a free meal and then saying that I have an advantage because I’m getting more food than someone. The purpose isn’t to pedal power. They’re not trying to get rich off pedaling power. They’re very legitimately selling an expansion.

If you can’t see the difference between these situations, there really is nothing to talk about.

People have to learn that a game isn’t just “pay 2 win” or “not pay 2 win”. Every game is either “not pay 2 win” or has a certain grade of “pay 2 win”.
Most people simply say a game is either pay 2 win or not which is a bad way of thinking.
For me a game is either not pay 2 win, sligtly pay 2 win, a bit pay 2 win, a lot pay 2 win, extremply pay 2 win or a different “grade” which aren’t really defined.
This is something the cusumer has to decide.

Also just take this example: Imagine the Revenant would one hit everybody. Would the game still be not pay 2 win?

Guild Wars 1 had 4 new classes after the base game prophecies, 2 for Factions (Assassian, Ritualist) and 2 for Nightfall (Dervish, Paragon) and you had to pay to unlock these expansions. They could be used in every aspect of PvE and PvP. Now, is it pay to win if people are able to use these 4 classes in PvP formats against others who do not have these expansion packs? I’d say not.

In this case (and in the case of GW2), it’s not P2W if no one is paying to have an unfair advantage over another. Those who pay are expanding their options, giving them more classes to play with and opening up new build opportunities. If they do it right, which I’m sure ANet will, these new specializations shouldn’t be OP as compared to the current skills and traits.

In GW1, the new classes were heavily worked and balanced after release to try to even out the playing field. I’m sure they will do the same here.

Has a certain grade of p2w?

My God dude, stop twisting what Pay to Win means just to fit your own twisted point of view.

Ephemiel.5694:

Has a certain grade of p2w?

My God dude, stop twisting what Pay to Win means just to fit your own twisted point of view.

What twisted point of view? There is no defined definition of pay to win.

Neox.3497:

Ephemiel.5694:

Has a certain grade of p2w?

My God dude, stop twisting what Pay to Win means just to fit your own twisted point of view.

What twisted point of view? There is no defined definition of pay to win.

So literally any video game that is purchasable is pay 2 win. Gotcha. Ok everyone now that we know this guy thinks this arbitrary thing we can move on.

Calling Gw2 expansion p2w is a stretch by any rational person. Especially considering that these new specs won’t even be played by man players. I know as a condi mesmer my spec is barely changing from the current build.

#everygameispay2win…………….#nobodycares

Neox.3497:

Vayne.8563:

Neox.3497:

Vayne.8563:

Neox.3497:

Ephemiel.5694:

So every game that added classes or class specs to their expansions are P2W.

That is one very twisted way of looking at this. I honestly don’t think you get what P2W in.

Yes they are.

For me the slightest advantage is pay 2 win.

But I have no problem when it’s in an MMO.

This is the problem with language. We use words to communicate. When we start making up our own definition of words and then use it in a post we cease to communicate. That’s why I try to use grind and farm differently (because they originally were different things).

It’s okay to rewrite the definition of a word in your mind but when you then try to use it on a forum, well then it gets hairy.

By your definition every game that sells for money is pay to win, because you have to buy it to win it. Guild Wars 2 was pay to win because if you don’t spend money you can’t play the game.

The words pay to win were created to denote and tag a specific type of game. A game where without the cash shop, without continually spending money, you couldn’t compete with people. That’s what pay to win has meant.

As you keep trying to move the language bar, you help no one. If every game does this, isn’t nothing to comment on. You’ve changed the definition of the phrase and you expect others to now agree with your altered definition.

Language and communication don’t work that way. It’s okay for you to change the definition of word. It’s not okay to claim it’s the actual definition.

But GW2:HoT isn’t a game it’s an expansion.
You can see the expansion as an item in the cash shop (= only available with real cash) and surprise, surprise! It fits your definition of pay 2 win.

You clearly can’t see the difference between the intention of a word and the actual word. No it doesn’t fit my definition of pay to win at all.

Again, the term pay to win was created to identify a very specific type of game, not something every single game does. There would have been no purpose on that. You’re trying to use a technicality to cloud the actual meaning, which is what lawyers do.

If you define evil as being X and everyone is doing that one thing then everyone is evil. But if everyone is evil then evil loses all meaning. There is no evil without good. Without good, evil doesn’t exist. It can’t exist in a vacuum.

The term pay to win was designed to deal with a specific unethical practice of allowing people to buy power, consistently through cash shop sales. Anet is selling you an expansion but it’s not JUST power. They’re selling you an entirely new area of the game. They’re saying you, and anyone, can access this for a single one time price.

People aren’t usually buying an expansion to get more power. They’re buying an expansion to get more content. It’s like going on a plane and getting a free meal and then saying that I have an advantage because I’m getting more food than someone. The purpose isn’t to pedal power. They’re not trying to get rich off pedaling power. They’re very legitimately selling an expansion.

If you can’t see the difference between these situations, there really is nothing to talk about.

People have to learn that a game isn’t just “pay 2 win” or “not pay 2 win”. Every game is either “not pay 2 win” or has a certain grade of “pay 2 win”.
Most people simply say a game is either pay 2 win or not which is a bad way of thinking.
For me a game is either not pay 2 win, sligtly pay 2 win, a bit pay 2 win, a lot pay 2 win, extremply pay 2 win or a different “grade” which aren’t really defined.
This is something the cusumer has to decide.

Also just take this example: Imagine the Revenant would one hit everybody. Would the game still be not pay 2 win?

So in your estimation what MMORPG is not pay to win?

Vayne.8563:

Neox.3497:

Vayne.8563:

Neox.3497:

Vayne.8563:

Neox.3497:

Ephemiel.5694:

So every game that added classes or class specs to their expansions are P2W.

That is one very twisted way of looking at this. I honestly don’t think you get what P2W in.

Yes they are.

For me the slightest advantage is pay 2 win.

But I have no problem when it’s in an MMO.

This is the problem with language. We use words to communicate. When we start making up our own definition of words and then use it in a post we cease to communicate. That’s why I try to use grind and farm differently (because they originally were different things).

It’s okay to rewrite the definition of a word in your mind but when you then try to use it on a forum, well then it gets hairy.

By your definition every game that sells for money is pay to win, because you have to buy it to win it. Guild Wars 2 was pay to win because if you don’t spend money you can’t play the game.

The words pay to win were created to denote and tag a specific type of game. A game where without the cash shop, without continually spending money, you couldn’t compete with people. That’s what pay to win has meant.

As you keep trying to move the language bar, you help no one. If every game does this, isn’t nothing to comment on. You’ve changed the definition of the phrase and you expect others to now agree with your altered definition.

Language and communication don’t work that way. It’s okay for you to change the definition of word. It’s not okay to claim it’s the actual definition.

But GW2:HoT isn’t a game it’s an expansion.
You can see the expansion as an item in the cash shop (= only available with real cash) and surprise, surprise! It fits your definition of pay 2 win.

You clearly can’t see the difference between the intention of a word and the actual word. No it doesn’t fit my definition of pay to win at all.

Again, the term pay to win was created to identify a very specific type of game, not something every single game does. There would have been no purpose on that. You’re trying to use a technicality to cloud the actual meaning, which is what lawyers do.

If you define evil as being X and everyone is doing that one thing then everyone is evil. But if everyone is evil then evil loses all meaning. There is no evil without good. Without good, evil doesn’t exist. It can’t exist in a vacuum.

The term pay to win was designed to deal with a specific unethical practice of allowing people to buy power, consistently through cash shop sales. Anet is selling you an expansion but it’s not JUST power. They’re selling you an entirely new area of the game. They’re saying you, and anyone, can access this for a single one time price.

People aren’t usually buying an expansion to get more power. They’re buying an expansion to get more content. It’s like going on a plane and getting a free meal and then saying that I have an advantage because I’m getting more food than someone. The purpose isn’t to pedal power. They’re not trying to get rich off pedaling power. They’re very legitimately selling an expansion.

If you can’t see the difference between these situations, there really is nothing to talk about.

People have to learn that a game isn’t just “pay 2 win” or “not pay 2 win”. Every game is either “not pay 2 win” or has a certain grade of “pay 2 win”.
Most people simply say a game is either pay 2 win or not which is a bad way of thinking.
For me a game is either not pay 2 win, sligtly pay 2 win, a bit pay 2 win, a lot pay 2 win, extremply pay 2 win or a different “grade” which aren’t really defined.
This is something the cusumer has to decide.

Also just take this example: Imagine the Revenant would one hit everybody. Would the game still be not pay 2 win?

So in your estimation what MMORPG is not pay to win?

An MMO that is free, has no Gemstore, and basically makes no money?

Really this strict definition of P2W just detracts from the actual meaning. Degrees are important in definitions. There is a difference between good, better, and best.

P2W should be reserved for when a game goes beyond expecting expansion/DLC purchases to gain power, and move towards something beyond that.

I can at least understand boosters being called p2w, it’s hardly severe enough to be admonished, and considering you can get gems with gold, well, it’s not really p2w it all. But buying an expansion? No, that’s just expected.

Jerus.4350:

Vayne.8563:

Neox.3497:

Vayne.8563:

Neox.3497:

Vayne.8563:

Neox.3497:

Ephemiel.5694:

So every game that added classes or class specs to their expansions are P2W.

That is one very twisted way of looking at this. I honestly don’t think you get what P2W in.

Yes they are.

For me the slightest advantage is pay 2 win.

But I have no problem when it’s in an MMO.

This is the problem with language. We use words to communicate. When we start making up our own definition of words and then use it in a post we cease to communicate. That’s why I try to use grind and farm differently (because they originally were different things).

It’s okay to rewrite the definition of a word in your mind but when you then try to use it on a forum, well then it gets hairy.

By your definition every game that sells for money is pay to win, because you have to buy it to win it. Guild Wars 2 was pay to win because if you don’t spend money you can’t play the game.

The words pay to win were created to denote and tag a specific type of game. A game where without the cash shop, without continually spending money, you couldn’t compete with people. That’s what pay to win has meant.

As you keep trying to move the language bar, you help no one. If every game does this, isn’t nothing to comment on. You’ve changed the definition of the phrase and you expect others to now agree with your altered definition.

Language and communication don’t work that way. It’s okay for you to change the definition of word. It’s not okay to claim it’s the actual definition.

But GW2:HoT isn’t a game it’s an expansion.
You can see the expansion as an item in the cash shop (= only available with real cash) and surprise, surprise! It fits your definition of pay 2 win.

You clearly can’t see the difference between the intention of a word and the actual word. No it doesn’t fit my definition of pay to win at all.

Again, the term pay to win was created to identify a very specific type of game, not something every single game does. There would have been no purpose on that. You’re trying to use a technicality to cloud the actual meaning, which is what lawyers do.

If you define evil as being X and everyone is doing that one thing then everyone is evil. But if everyone is evil then evil loses all meaning. There is no evil without good. Without good, evil doesn’t exist. It can’t exist in a vacuum.

The term pay to win was designed to deal with a specific unethical practice of allowing people to buy power, consistently through cash shop sales. Anet is selling you an expansion but it’s not JUST power. They’re selling you an entirely new area of the game. They’re saying you, and anyone, can access this for a single one time price.

People aren’t usually buying an expansion to get more power. They’re buying an expansion to get more content. It’s like going on a plane and getting a free meal and then saying that I have an advantage because I’m getting more food than someone. The purpose isn’t to pedal power. They’re not trying to get rich off pedaling power. They’re very legitimately selling an expansion.

If you can’t see the difference between these situations, there really is nothing to talk about.

People have to learn that a game isn’t just “pay 2 win” or “not pay 2 win”. Every game is either “not pay 2 win” or has a certain grade of “pay 2 win”.
Most people simply say a game is either pay 2 win or not which is a bad way of thinking.
For me a game is either not pay 2 win, sligtly pay 2 win, a bit pay 2 win, a lot pay 2 win, extremply pay 2 win or a different “grade” which aren’t really defined.
This is something the cusumer has to decide.

Also just take this example: Imagine the Revenant would one hit everybody. Would the game still be not pay 2 win?

So in your estimation what MMORPG is not pay to win?

An MMO that is free, has no Gemstore, and basically makes no money?

Really this strict definition of P2W just detracts from the actual meaning. Degrees are important in definitions. There is a difference between good, better, and best.

P2W should be reserved for when a game goes beyond expecting expansion/DLC purchases to gain power, and move towards something beyond that.

I can at least understand boosters being called p2w, it’s hardly severe enough to be admonished, and considering you can get gems with gold, well, it’s not really p2w it all. But buying an expansion? No, that’s just expected.

This is my point, if every MMORPG is pay to win, than the words have no meaning at all. So let the OP suggest an MMO that’s not pay to win according to his definition. If he can’t, I’d say this is all null and void.

Vayne.8563:

Neox.3497:

Vayne.8563:

Neox.3497:

Vayne.8563:

Neox.3497:

Ephemiel.5694:

So every game that added classes or class specs to their expansions are P2W.

That is one very twisted way of looking at this. I honestly don’t think you get what P2W in.

Yes they are.

For me the slightest advantage is pay 2 win.

But I have no problem when it’s in an MMO.

This is the problem with language. We use words to communicate. When we start making up our own definition of words and then use it in a post we cease to communicate. That’s why I try to use grind and farm differently (because they originally were different things).

It’s okay to rewrite the definition of a word in your mind but when you then try to use it on a forum, well then it gets hairy.

By your definition every game that sells for money is pay to win, because you have to buy it to win it. Guild Wars 2 was pay to win because if you don’t spend money you can’t play the game.

The words pay to win were created to denote and tag a specific type of game. A game where without the cash shop, without continually spending money, you couldn’t compete with people. That’s what pay to win has meant.

As you keep trying to move the language bar, you help no one. If every game does this, isn’t nothing to comment on. You’ve changed the definition of the phrase and you expect others to now agree with your altered definition.

Language and communication don’t work that way. It’s okay for you to change the definition of word. It’s not okay to claim it’s the actual definition.

But GW2:HoT isn’t a game it’s an expansion.
You can see the expansion as an item in the cash shop (= only available with real cash) and surprise, surprise! It fits your definition of pay 2 win.

You clearly can’t see the difference between the intention of a word and the actual word. No it doesn’t fit my definition of pay to win at all.

Again, the term pay to win was created to identify a very specific type of game, not something every single game does. There would have been no purpose on that. You’re trying to use a technicality to cloud the actual meaning, which is what lawyers do.

If you define evil as being X and everyone is doing that one thing then everyone is evil. But if everyone is evil then evil loses all meaning. There is no evil without good. Without good, evil doesn’t exist. It can’t exist in a vacuum.

The term pay to win was designed to deal with a specific unethical practice of allowing people to buy power, consistently through cash shop sales. Anet is selling you an expansion but it’s not JUST power. They’re selling you an entirely new area of the game. They’re saying you, and anyone, can access this for a single one time price.

People aren’t usually buying an expansion to get more power. They’re buying an expansion to get more content. It’s like going on a plane and getting a free meal and then saying that I have an advantage because I’m getting more food than someone. The purpose isn’t to pedal power. They’re not trying to get rich off pedaling power. They’re very legitimately selling an expansion.

If you can’t see the difference between these situations, there really is nothing to talk about.

People have to learn that a game isn’t just “pay 2 win” or “not pay 2 win”. Every game is either “not pay 2 win” or has a certain grade of “pay 2 win”.
Most people simply say a game is either pay 2 win or not which is a bad way of thinking.
For me a game is either not pay 2 win, sligtly pay 2 win, a bit pay 2 win, a lot pay 2 win, extremply pay 2 win or a different “grade” which aren’t really defined.
This is something the cusumer has to decide.

Also just take this example: Imagine the Revenant would one hit everybody. Would the game still be not pay 2 win?

So in your estimation what MMORPG is not pay to win?

Well none that has an expansion with a new profession and/or skills that lets non-xpac people play vs xpac people. I’m not sure if there are such MMORPGs. So I guess there is none. Is that a problem?

/Edit: Or better MMORPGs GET pay 2 win when they introduce expansions. So there are MMORPGs that are not pay 2 win but not for a long time. (GW2 for example RIGHT NOW)

Neox.3497:

Vayne.8563:

Neox.3497:

Vayne.8563:

Neox.3497:

Vayne.8563:

Neox.3497:

Ephemiel.5694:

So every game that added classes or class specs to their expansions are P2W.

That is one very twisted way of looking at this. I honestly don’t think you get what P2W in.

Yes they are.

For me the slightest advantage is pay 2 win.

But I have no problem when it’s in an MMO.

This is the problem with language. We use words to communicate. When we start making up our own definition of words and then use it in a post we cease to communicate. That’s why I try to use grind and farm differently (because they originally were different things).

It’s okay to rewrite the definition of a word in your mind but when you then try to use it on a forum, well then it gets hairy.

By your definition every game that sells for money is pay to win, because you have to buy it to win it. Guild Wars 2 was pay to win because if you don’t spend money you can’t play the game.

The words pay to win were created to denote and tag a specific type of game. A game where without the cash shop, without continually spending money, you couldn’t compete with people. That’s what pay to win has meant.

As you keep trying to move the language bar, you help no one. If every game does this, isn’t nothing to comment on. You’ve changed the definition of the phrase and you expect others to now agree with your altered definition.

Language and communication don’t work that way. It’s okay for you to change the definition of word. It’s not okay to claim it’s the actual definition.

But GW2:HoT isn’t a game it’s an expansion.
You can see the expansion as an item in the cash shop (= only available with real cash) and surprise, surprise! It fits your definition of pay 2 win.

You clearly can’t see the difference between the intention of a word and the actual word. No it doesn’t fit my definition of pay to win at all.

Again, the term pay to win was created to identify a very specific type of game, not something every single game does. There would have been no purpose on that. You’re trying to use a technicality to cloud the actual meaning, which is what lawyers do.

If you define evil as being X and everyone is doing that one thing then everyone is evil. But if everyone is evil then evil loses all meaning. There is no evil without good. Without good, evil doesn’t exist. It can’t exist in a vacuum.

The term pay to win was designed to deal with a specific unethical practice of allowing people to buy power, consistently through cash shop sales. Anet is selling you an expansion but it’s not JUST power. They’re selling you an entirely new area of the game. They’re saying you, and anyone, can access this for a single one time price.

People aren’t usually buying an expansion to get more power. They’re buying an expansion to get more content. It’s like going on a plane and getting a free meal and then saying that I have an advantage because I’m getting more food than someone. The purpose isn’t to pedal power. They’re not trying to get rich off pedaling power. They’re very legitimately selling an expansion.

If you can’t see the difference between these situations, there really is nothing to talk about.

People have to learn that a game isn’t just “pay 2 win” or “not pay 2 win”. Every game is either “not pay 2 win” or has a certain grade of “pay 2 win”.
Most people simply say a game is either pay 2 win or not which is a bad way of thinking.
For me a game is either not pay 2 win, sligtly pay 2 win, a bit pay 2 win, a lot pay 2 win, extremply pay 2 win or a different “grade” which aren’t really defined.
This is something the cusumer has to decide.

Also just take this example: Imagine the Revenant would one hit everybody. Would the game still be not pay 2 win?

So in your estimation what MMORPG is not pay to win?

Well none that has an expansion with a new profession and/or skills that lets non-xpac people play vs xpac people. I’m not sure if there are such MMORPGs. So I guess there is none. Is that a problem?

/Edit: Or better MMORPGs GET pay 2 win when they introduce expansions. So there are MMORPGs that are not pay 2 win but not for a long time. (GW2 for example RIGHT NOW)

Still doesn’t work. You are saying the expansion is pay to win because if you don’t buy it, you don’t get those abilities. But if you don’t buy the game then you also don’t get the vanilla abilities, which by your logic means that buying a game is pay to win.

Neox.3497:

Vayne.8563:

Neox.3497:

Vayne.8563:

Neox.3497:

Vayne.8563:

Neox.3497:

Ephemiel.5694:

So every game that added classes or class specs to their expansions are P2W.

That is one very twisted way of looking at this. I honestly don’t think you get what P2W in.

Yes they are.

For me the slightest advantage is pay 2 win.

But I have no problem when it’s in an MMO.

This is the problem with language. We use words to communicate. When we start making up our own definition of words and then use it in a post we cease to communicate. That’s why I try to use grind and farm differently (because they originally were different things).

It’s okay to rewrite the definition of a word in your mind but when you then try to use it on a forum, well then it gets hairy.

By your definition every game that sells for money is pay to win, because you have to buy it to win it. Guild Wars 2 was pay to win because if you don’t spend money you can’t play the game.

The words pay to win were created to denote and tag a specific type of game. A game where without the cash shop, without continually spending money, you couldn’t compete with people. That’s what pay to win has meant.

As you keep trying to move the language bar, you help no one. If every game does this, isn’t nothing to comment on. You’ve changed the definition of the phrase and you expect others to now agree with your altered definition.

Language and communication don’t work that way. It’s okay for you to change the definition of word. It’s not okay to claim it’s the actual definition.

But GW2:HoT isn’t a game it’s an expansion.
You can see the expansion as an item in the cash shop (= only available with real cash) and surprise, surprise! It fits your definition of pay 2 win.

You clearly can’t see the difference between the intention of a word and the actual word. No it doesn’t fit my definition of pay to win at all.

Again, the term pay to win was created to identify a very specific type of game, not something every single game does. There would have been no purpose on that. You’re trying to use a technicality to cloud the actual meaning, which is what lawyers do.

If you define evil as being X and everyone is doing that one thing then everyone is evil. But if everyone is evil then evil loses all meaning. There is no evil without good. Without good, evil doesn’t exist. It can’t exist in a vacuum.

The term pay to win was designed to deal with a specific unethical practice of allowing people to buy power, consistently through cash shop sales. Anet is selling you an expansion but it’s not JUST power. They’re selling you an entirely new area of the game. They’re saying you, and anyone, can access this for a single one time price.

People aren’t usually buying an expansion to get more power. They’re buying an expansion to get more content. It’s like going on a plane and getting a free meal and then saying that I have an advantage because I’m getting more food than someone. The purpose isn’t to pedal power. They’re not trying to get rich off pedaling power. They’re very legitimately selling an expansion.

If you can’t see the difference between these situations, there really is nothing to talk about.

People have to learn that a game isn’t just “pay 2 win” or “not pay 2 win”. Every game is either “not pay 2 win” or has a certain grade of “pay 2 win”.
Most people simply say a game is either pay 2 win or not which is a bad way of thinking.
For me a game is either not pay 2 win, sligtly pay 2 win, a bit pay 2 win, a lot pay 2 win, extremply pay 2 win or a different “grade” which aren’t really defined.
This is something the cusumer has to decide.

Also just take this example: Imagine the Revenant would one hit everybody. Would the game still be not pay 2 win?

So in your estimation what MMORPG is not pay to win?

Well none that has an expansion with a new profession and/or skills that lets non-xpac people play vs xpac people. I’m not sure if there are such MMORPGs. So I guess there is none. Is that a problem?

/Edit: Or better MMORPGs GET pay 2 win when they introduce expansions. So there are MMORPGs that are not pay 2 win but not for a long time. (GW2 for example RIGHT NOW)

Sure it’s a problem. The words pay to win have a negative connotation. So, if you’re using them, you’re maligning a game. It’s saying something bad about it.

If all MMOs are doing it, then all are bad, but there’s be no point to bringing it up at all. It’s only worth mentioning if this MMO is doing something wrong by releasing an expansion. Most people don’t see to think they are. You seem to be the exception.

There’s no argument here. If everyone is pay to win then it’s a pointless discussion.

The problem is, not every mmo and their expansions are the same. I will make a post about that later where I will compare 2 mmos. But first I will sleep a bit.

Go play the F2P crap MMOs that won’t last longer than maybe a year then. Those games will die long before they can get an expac.

Vayne.8563:

This is my point, if every MMORPG is pay to win, than the words have no meaning at all. So let the OP suggest an MMO that’s not pay to win according to his definition. If he can’t, I’d say this is all null and void.

Exactly. I will say the power creep concerns me as I always felt the design of this game was such that all content was still valid. With the way things look right now there will be a consistent increase in power such that much of the old content will simply become trivial and I don’t think that’s a good thing. But, we’ll see what happens. It surely will sell expansions, but is it good for the overall health of the game when we have much more limited content additions than many other MMOs?

I’m floored by the entitlement of people who expect game designers to produce major revisions to a game without compensation. ANet is producing horizontal progression systems in the form of Mastery and Elite Specs. Why are they doing it? Because players demanded it. Why are changes coming as an expansion? Because players demanded it and the company exists to make money.

Think it’s P2W if you like. Don’t buy it if that bothers you. But, get over yourselves. Do you really think a business is just going to give you kitten for free?

Neox.3497:

The problem is, not every mmo and their expansions are the same. I will make a post about that later where I will compare 2 mmos. But first I will sleep a bit.

Hmm seems like the “PvP” aspec of WoW is actually also “pay 2 win” when you reach the non-xpac max level (90). As a level 90 you will be matched with enemies on the level 90-99 so you can have a clear disadvantage. That would have been completely different if the pool would been something like 81-90.

The important part I wanted to show is that you and your enemies have to play the SAME game in order to make it “not pay to win”. But that’s not the case. (Enemies have a higher level/More options)

So yes, I can’t tell you one mmo which has a pvp ‘gamemode’ that isn’t “pay 2 win”, but the reason might be that I haven’t played many of them recently.
But my point still stands that “Guildwars 2”s ‘sPvP’ will be slightly pay to win.

Neox.3497:

Neox.3497:

The problem is, not every mmo and their expansions are the same. I will make a post about that later where I will compare 2 mmos. But first I will sleep a bit.

Hmm seems like the “PvP” aspec of WoW is actually also “pay 2 win” when you reach the non-xpac max level (90). As a level 90 you will be matched with enemies on the level 90-99 so you can have a clear disadvantage. That would have been completely different if the pool would been something like 81-90.

The important part I wanted to show is that you and your enemies have to play the SAME game in order to make it “not pay to win”. But that’s not the case. (Enemies have a higher level/More options)

So yes, I can’t tell you one mmo which has a pvp ‘gamemode’ that isn’t “pay 2 win”, but the reason might be that I haven’t played many of them recently.
But my point still stands that “Guildwars 2”s ‘sPvP’ will be slightly pay to win.

Literally every person here disagrees with you. You can say “my point” all you want to. The reality here nobody agrees with you.

The fact that you can say a expanasion for a mmo 3 years after launch is p2w just shows how little experience you have PC gaming. Also it shows that you can’t save up 50$ in 3 years.

Once again I repeat GW2, SMITE and DOTA are the best deals in all of pc gaming.

Entitlement is not a attractive trait.

“Hmm seems like the “PvP” aspec of WoW is actually also “pay 2 win” when you reach the non-xpac max level (90). As a level 90 you will be matched with enemies on the level 90-99 so you can have a clear disadvantage. That would have been completely different if the pool would been something like 81-90.”

You’re just a bad troll aren’t you? No one with an actual brain would actually be so stupid to say this.

Godmoney.2048:

Neox.3497:

Neox.3497:

The problem is, not every mmo and their expansions are the same. I will make a post about that later where I will compare 2 mmos. But first I will sleep a bit.

Hmm seems like the “PvP” aspec of WoW is actually also “pay 2 win” when you reach the non-xpac max level (90). As a level 90 you will be matched with enemies on the level 90-99 so you can have a clear disadvantage. That would have been completely different if the pool would been something like 81-90.

The important part I wanted to show is that you and your enemies have to play the SAME game in order to make it “not pay to win”. But that’s not the case. (Enemies have a higher level/More options)

So yes, I can’t tell you one mmo which has a pvp ‘gamemode’ that isn’t “pay 2 win”, but the reason might be that I haven’t played many of them recently.
But my point still stands that “Guildwars 2”s ‘sPvP’ will be slightly pay to win.

Literally every person here disagrees with you. You can say “my point” all you want to. The reality here nobody agrees with you.

The fact that you can say a expanasion for a mmo 3 years after launch is p2w just shows how little experience you have PC gaming. Also it shows that you can’t save up 50$ in 3 years.

Once again I repeat GW2, SMITE and DOTA are the best deals in all of pc gaming.

Entitlement is not a attractive trait.

I already said twice I will buy the xpac. But you don’t care anyway.

Ephemiel.5694:

“Hmm seems like the “PvP” aspec of WoW is actually also “pay 2 win” when you reach the non-xpac max level (90). As a level 90 you will be matched with enemies on the level 90-99 so you can have a clear disadvantage. That would have been completely different if the pool would been something like 81-90.”

You’re just a bad troll aren’t you? No one with an actual brain would actually be so stupid to say this.

Why?

Neox.3497:

Hmm seems like the “PvP” aspec of WoW is actually also “pay 2 win” when you reach the non-xpac max level (90). As a level 90 you will be matched with enemies on the level 90-99 so you can have a clear disadvantage. That would have been completely different if the pool would been something like 81-90.

Level 90-99 is 9 levels. Level 81 to 90 is 9 levels. Why is one completely different from the other so that one is p2w and the other is not, with the previous expansion which went from level 80 to 90?

Nvm. I’m sure you’ll say it was pay to win also as every expansion bought that was ever made is p2w by your definition.

A definition of p2w that covers all games with a bought expansion is a meaningless one.

Just a flesh wound.3589:

Nvm. I’m sure you’ll say it was pay to win also as every expansion that was ever made is p2w by your definition.

A definition of p2w that covers all games with an expansion is a meaningless one.

You have to remember I never said the GAMES were p2w but the PvP parts of theses games. I also don’t know if it covers all games with an expansion.

I don’t think there is any more reason to argue about that for me. Most of you seem to feel attacked of what I said and I also don’t really care anymore. I stated everything important already and it’s no fun if people post something without reading everything before.

Cya. I will only lurk from here on and maybe post something if anything really triggers me.

No one is hating on you. You seem to be missing the point. You claim others don’t read your text, but you’re not reading theirs.

Pay to win has a negative connotation. It’s not an innocent description of something. By using P2W in your post, you trigger a response, because this is one of the least pay to win games most of us have ever played, certainly when it comes to MMORPGs. Even by your definition I can’t think of any MMORPG less pay to win than this one.

So you use what is essentially inflammatory and accusing language and they you try to hide behind a definition that most people don’t agree with, and then you claim people are hating on you.

The real issue here is that your definition of P2W servers no purpose, doesn’t agree with anyone else’s and accomplishes nothing, because it doesn’t segregate out the actual offenders. You cloud the issue.

But if you’re not going to respond again, the mods should probably close the thread anyway.

Pay to win has the specifically understood meaning of directly buying power in a game’s store. It’s weapons or armor that are better than anything that can be gotten by playing and allows people to win in PvP.

What’s annoying is people stretching the definition to cover their peeve of the day. I’ve seen posts that call buying skins from the gem store, pay to win. Buying character slots, bank slots, also called pay to win. Your definition that covers all paid for expansions as well as simply buying the game is another definition that stretches the meaning past anything that makes sense. A definition of pay to win that covers all games/expansions you have to buy is so diluted as to be meaningless.

A meaning of pay to win that is so diluted as to be worthless is a worthless definition and deserves to be rejected to keep the real meaning intact.

@Vayne, it does serve a purpose, it paints the setup in a negative moral light.

I really don’t understand how can someone call buying new expansion a P2W game.That sounds so absurd that i just can’t believe my eyes.Expansions are everything else but not a P2W games.It’s like saying that B2P or P2P models are P2W games….Hell no!They are just different business models from the F2P one.

More often F2P games are those that are P2W.Here is the definition of P2W – Games that let you buy better gear or allow you to make better items (from game shop only) than everyone else at a faster rate and then makes the game largely unbalanced even for people who have skill in the game without paying.

Expansions never ever were/are/will be included in that definition.They are extensions to the mane game that deliver many new feautures and content.
If the OP’s definition of a B2P expansion is P2W i have no idea what will he say for P2P games like WoW gosh.He clearly doesn’t make difference between the 3 models(F2P,B2P,P2P) and P2W.

Kasteros.9847:

Now not confirmed to be free or buy stuff:

• Stronghold
• Guildhalls
• Ways to obtain new mats that come into game with HoT
• New Legendaries
• New monsters – will they appear in normal world? Or HoT only?
• Defiance – do old bosses get it too? Or only HoT bosses?

I can’t imagine the new Legendary weapons, monsters and mats being accessible to everyone.

If memory serves me rightly, Stronghold will be accessible to everyone and Defiance will be implemented in the core game to mobs as well.

if you want the game to keep running and keep enjoying it, they need a boost in revenue

Windsagio.1340:

@Vayne, it does serve a purpose, it paints the setup in a negative moral light.

As I said, if every single MMORPG is painted in that light, is has no real meaning, unless you want to malign the genre as a whole.

But before we did that, it had a different meaning. It was about games that sold power more or less directly, not games that offered expansions.

They ARE two different things.

Neox.3497:

WTF I never said I won’t buy the expansion. I even said already I will buy it.

It’s about the fact that it will be SLIGHTLY pay 2 win and the important part is “slightly”.
Also yes with a seperated queue it wouldn’t be anymore but I don’t even want that.
Guildwars PvP is only a little part of Guildwars and with the current price (in sales) you get more than enough content to justice the little disadvatage you will have in PvP.

The majority won’t say “Guildwars 2 is pay 2 win” because
1. PvP is only a small part of GW2
2. The advantage will probably be minimalistic

The only exception would be if the elite specs will be way too powerfull which probably won’t happen.

And to make it clear I HAVE NO PROBLEM THAT NON-HOTS PLAYERS (or GW2 purists, how you call them) WILL PLAY VERSUS HOTS PLAYERS in PvP.
They should know that they can’t use all the skills the others have and if they really want to get the whole (and 100% fair) PvP part of GW2 they will have to pay for it.

I really do understand what you are trying to say, believe it or not, but your entire point is based on an incorrect understanding of what Pay-to-Win means. You have over-simplified the term into obscurity.

This isn’t an agree to disagree issue, either. You are defining the term in a technical sense based on the words, rather than its actual sense based on the phrase and the context in which it is normally used.

It happens.

I wonder what people would call “League of Legends” if you could only buy the new champions with real money.

That would be pretty much the same. But blah blah blah. Yes Im wrong I know.

Neox.3497:

I wonder what people would call “League of Legends” if you could only buy the new champions with real money.

That would be pretty much the same. But blah blah blah. Yes Im wrong I know.

League is a Freemium game. It’s tough to compare the two. Also, you are wrong if you still don’t understand that an expansion is not Pay2Win. As others have stated, we’re not debating the definition of Pay2Win, as it is an established game payment method with a definition, but you are.