Guild Wars 2

How do you think ArenaNet will combat power creep in HOT? Or do you think they will do it like WoW?

What do you mean “like WoW”?

I’m sure HoT content will be tuned with it in mind if they don’t scale it back. The numbers are not final yet, but yes from what we’ve seen it’ll be there.

When i say “like WoW” i mean just changing the numbers.And if you have the best armour in HOT you can do solo the normal dungeons or with one friend.

Wolfye.7460:

When i say “like WoW” i mean just changing the numbers.And if you have the best armour in HOT you can do solo the normal dungeons or with one friend.

People are already soloing and duoing various dungeons.

I think initially there will be some balance problems but in the longer run I expect the people with HoT will not be stronger than those without HoT.

What power creep are you imagining? Exotic armor will be the same as it is now. Ascended will be the same as it is now. The only adjustments will be for stats being removed from traits and being put on gear, but the numbers should be the same.

Ralanost.8913:

What power creep are you imagining? Exotic armor will be the same as it is now. Ascended will be the same as it is now. The only adjustments will be for stats being removed from traits and being put on gear, but the numbers should be the same.

Power creep comes from merging of traits to create much more powerful traits and build options, as well as giving 3 GMs instead of 2.

Wolfye.7460:

When i say “like WoW” i mean just changing the numbers.And if you have the best armour in HOT you can do solo the normal dungeons or with one friend.

Well I doubt armor will change, and you can solo almost all dungeons already, and duos aren’t bad at all.

But, are you talking about Mudflation then? Which if you look it up will generally reference the economic impact, but it’s also a term used to describe stats. Where the numbers grow and eventually become a hindrance to development, causing too big of deviation in choices or too small. If I understand right (didn’t play WoW but heard about the happening I believe you’re refering to) basically the numbers got too large and they adjusted them down.

I don’t see that happening in GW2 ever really, but even if it does it won’t be for a long time.

It’s done in other games because of the built in power creep by their design intentions with the gear treadmill. We won’t have the gear treadmill, the power creep we’re seeing with the expansion will be trait/utility based mainly.

ronpierce.2760:

Ralanost.8913:

What power creep are you imagining? Exotic armor will be the same as it is now. Ascended will be the same as it is now. The only adjustments will be for stats being removed from traits and being put on gear, but the numbers should be the same.

Power creep comes from merging of traits to create much more powerful traits and build options, as well as giving 3 GMs instead of 2.

That’s not power creep. That’s changing mechanics and the meta. Do you honestly think nothing will be balanced?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Power_creep

They have fully embraced the power creep by making a ton of things baseline for many classes. Let’s hope the rest of the game can keep up.

Ralanost.8913:

ronpierce.2760:

Ralanost.8913:

What power creep are you imagining? Exotic armor will be the same as it is now. Ascended will be the same as it is now. The only adjustments will be for stats being removed from traits and being put on gear, but the numbers should be the same.

Power creep comes from merging of traits to create much more powerful traits and build options, as well as giving 3 GMs instead of 2.

That’s not power creep. That’s changing mechanics and the meta. Do you honestly think nothing will be balanced?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Power_creep

Looking at guardian and engi mainly. The Guardian is going to gain HUGE increases in damage… power creep, you can see just from the damage modifiers which while individually find when you stack them all up it changes things.

Engi is going to gain access to a lot more utility/support for much smaller losses in damage, again power creep.

Now, they may drop the modifiers on guardian to be more in line, but just the addition of trait points is going to leave the engi with quite a bit of extra power, and the adjustment to conditions will make their optimum output far more practical to expect.

Power creep is going to happen, question is will they tone some things down and limit the overall effect?

most of the current content is already, well, trivial, so I expect ‘power creep’ to go along with them tuning the new content.

Power Creep derives from new content increasing numbers in stats and gear, so the new stuff is always comparatively better. Not just different. Always better.

GW2 will not do that. The core game will have changes before HoT hits, and what hot will introduce is not ‘greater’ but ‘different’. If you equip an elite specialization, you will have to sacrifice a core one.

The merged traits are those who were mostly useless compared to others, so people never picked them. And some of those people always picked ended up as part of the core mechanics of the profession already.

Ralanost.8913:

ronpierce.2760:

Ralanost.8913:

What power creep are you imagining? Exotic armor will be the same as it is now. Ascended will be the same as it is now. The only adjustments will be for stats being removed from traits and being put on gear, but the numbers should be the same.

Power creep comes from merging of traits to create much more powerful traits and build options, as well as giving 3 GMs instead of 2.

That’s not power creep. That’s changing mechanics and the meta. Do you honestly think nothing will be balanced?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Power_creep

It’s not just a change in mechanics… All of the merging caused more power to be handed around… I know what the hell I’m talking about and what a kitten power creep is…

Power creeps having little to do with Balance toward one another but a balance toward the base. If everyone’s damage went up 20% but base stats (like HP) stayed the same for people who don’t spec into it, you have a power creep.

Power creep =/= introduced imbalance among classes.

Windsagio.1340:

most of the current content is already, well, trivial, so I expect ‘power creep’ to go along with them tuning the new content.

Very true, they really screwed up scaling last april with the ferocity patch. I still find Arah/Fractals pleasantly difficult such that if you screw up you’re punished. With the current changes though I can’t help but feel those things will just become boring even in PUGs (arah is already kinda boring in well organized groups if you do it regularly, need that added chaos from PUGs to keep it entertaining, IMO at least).

Four new traits for free = more power.
Some traits made baseline = more power.
Stronger traits = more power.

Yes, even meta/ picked traits are generally getting buffed, not merely the weakest ones.

That’s pretty much powercreep, but if it’ll have a negative impact or not is hard to say (it’ll probably not).

Meanwhile, some trait stats being made baseline might mean less focused power (all procs will get extra health/ toughness/ damage), but I’m not sure if they’ll be significant enough.

The only Power Creep that will happen is in couple x-pacs ahead where “core” trait lines aren’t meta and the new meta is full of elite speccs.

If that happens, that will be the Power creep, happened in gw1 where the core game was awfull for pvp if u didn’t had the new top builds with the new skills, better builds appeared basicly

If by power creep you mean traits will finally get organized and synergize with each other unlike how they first were introduced, then yes there is power creep. There is nothing wrong with this though if they can get it to the point where the player has a tough chance picking out of the three options because theyre all so good, as opposed to having a tough time picking because theyre all underpowered and useless.

Just look at the reaping traitline for necro; syngergy and powerful traits everywhere. Its how all traitlines should be like.

Sneakier.9460:

The only Power Creep that will happen is in couple x-pacs ahead where “core” trait lines aren’t meta and the new meta is full of elite speccs.

If that happens, that will be the Power creep, happened in gw1 where the core game was awfull for pvp if u didn’t had the new top builds with the new skills, better builds appeared basicly

Core specs will always be meta because a build can only have 1 elite spec at the most.

However I hope that using 3 core specs will be as powerful as using 2 core specs and 1 elite spec. I think Anet is trying to make sure that is the case. However, as I said befre, it may take some time for that to happen.

Loss of stats from traitlines is also happening people font forget. Base primary state are raising to 1000 but that still leaves 404 stats unaccounted for. Unless that’s all added to gear we lose stats. Also attributes no long from stats means some builds will have to change their gear/amulet if they want similar stats.

I see less power creep more reshuffle.

Sigmoid.7082:

Loss of stats from traitlines is also happening people font forget. Base primary state are raising to 1000 but that still leaves 404 stats unaccounted for. Unless that’s all added to gear we lose stats. Also attributes no long from stats means some builds will have to change their gear/amulet if they want similar stats.

I see less power creep more reshuffle.

They already said the state are moving to gear and base. So yeah, still a creep.

Jerus.4350:

Windsagio.1340:

most of the current content is already, well, trivial, so I expect ‘power creep’ to go along with them tuning the new content.

Very true, they really screwed up scaling last april with the ferocity patch. I still find Arah/Fractals pleasantly difficult such that if you screw up you’re punished. With the current changes though I can’t help but feel those things will just become boring even in PUGs (arah is already kinda boring in well organized groups if you do it regularly, need that added chaos from PUGs to keep it entertaining, IMO at least).

This always comes down to the fact that I think we’ll get fractal expansion and you don’t :p

Windsagio.1340:

Jerus.4350:

Windsagio.1340:

most of the current content is already, well, trivial, so I expect ‘power creep’ to go along with them tuning the new content.

Very true, they really screwed up scaling last april with the ferocity patch. I still find Arah/Fractals pleasantly difficult such that if you screw up you’re punished. With the current changes though I can’t help but feel those things will just become boring even in PUGs (arah is already kinda boring in well organized groups if you do it regularly, need that added chaos from PUGs to keep it entertaining, IMO at least).

This always comes down to the fact that I think we’ll get fractal expansion and you don’t :p

It’s also Arah, much love for that place, but I don’t want even PUG groups to run through it as smooth as a fully optimized coordinated group.

But, yes if they give me new fractal levels I’ll gladly tip my hat and shove my foot in my mouth

ronpierce.2760:

Sigmoid.7082:

Loss of stats from traitlines is also happening people font forget. Base primary state are raising to 1000 but that still leaves 404 stats unaccounted for. Unless that’s all added to gear we lose stats. Also attributes no long from stats means some builds will have to change their gear/amulet if they want similar stats.

I see less power creep more reshuffle.

They already said the state are moving to gear and base. So yeah, still a creep.

You miss the point that if a build is using say a zerk ammy but is in defence and healing lines they get an extra 300 toughness and healing power. Rounding the build out.
That won’t be the case since all stats are tied to gear and stab combos are finite. In the above example it means you heal less and take around an extra 11% damage.

This is huge especially in PvP.

You guys honestly sound exactly like the guy claiming HoT is p2w. Numbers are far from final and you are claiming that the new stuff will give them increased power. Amazingly shortsighted and missing the fact that number balance will happen. Some numbers might go up, some numbers will go down. We have no idea what the final numbers will be like so claiming there is a power creep is completely baseless assumptions. You are complaining to complain.

Ralanost.8913:

You guys honestly sound exactly like the guy claiming HoT is p2w. Numbers are far from final and you are claiming that the new stuff will give them increased power. Amazingly shortsighted and missing the fact that number balance will happen. Some numbers might go up, some numbers will go down. We have no idea what the final numbers will be like so claiming there is a power creep is completely baseless assumptions. You are complaining to complain.

I’m cool with characters getting stronger, but I’m also totally happy to admit that it’s happening. The trait change is in almost every case a big power boost. The Elite specs seem to, in most cases, be stronger than their base classes. Yes the numbers are in flux, but it’s a totally reasonable discussion.

Sigmoid.7082:

ronpierce.2760:

Sigmoid.7082:

Loss of stats from traitlines is also happening people font forget. Base primary state are raising to 1000 but that still leaves 404 stats unaccounted for. Unless that’s all added to gear we lose stats. Also attributes no long from stats means some builds will have to change their gear/amulet if they want similar stats.

I see less power creep more reshuffle.

They already said the state are moving to gear and base. So yeah, still a creep.

You miss the point that if a build is using say a zerk ammy but is in defence and healing lines they get an extra 300 toughness and healing power. Rounding the build out.
That won’t be the case since all stats are tied to gear and stab combos are finite. In the above example it means you heal less and take around an extra 11% damage.

This is huge especially in PvP.

It’s still a power creep… Not necessarily a diversity opener, but the numerical stat values will remain. Overall power, however, (especially outside of sPvP) is definitely getting stronger. I also suspect they will finally bring back PVP jewels in wake of this change. At least, one could only hope.

My only other though is that if the nerf to celestial goes through I hope they hold it just to the PvP amulet. If anything the set needs help in PvE (and afaik world)

Windsagio.1340:

Ralanost.8913:

You guys honestly sound exactly like the guy claiming HoT is p2w. Numbers are far from final and you are claiming that the new stuff will give them increased power. Amazingly shortsighted and missing the fact that number balance will happen. Some numbers might go up, some numbers will go down. We have no idea what the final numbers will be like so claiming there is a power creep is completely baseless assumptions. You are complaining to complain.

I’m cool with characters getting stronger, but I’m also totally happy to admit that it’s happening. The trait change is in almost every case a big power boost. The Elite specs seem to, in most cases, be stronger than their base classes. Yes the numbers are in flux, but it’s a totally reasonable discussion.

It really isn’t. The traits aren’t final. Numbers aren’t final. Just combining some traits doesn’t equal more power. It’s nothing but assumptions based on alpha numbers and footage.

Ralanost.8913:

Windsagio.1340:

Ralanost.8913:

You guys honestly sound exactly like the guy claiming HoT is p2w. Numbers are far from final and you are claiming that the new stuff will give them increased power. Amazingly shortsighted and missing the fact that number balance will happen. Some numbers might go up, some numbers will go down. We have no idea what the final numbers will be like so claiming there is a power creep is completely baseless assumptions. You are complaining to complain.

I’m cool with characters getting stronger, but I’m also totally happy to admit that it’s happening. The trait change is in almost every case a big power boost. The Elite specs seem to, in most cases, be stronger than their base classes. Yes the numbers are in flux, but it’s a totally reasonable discussion.

It really isn’t. The traits aren’t final. Numbers aren’t final. Just combining some traits doesn’t equal more power. It’s nothing but assumptions based on alpha numbers and footage.

Having more traits essentially = more power, as a general rule, although you can make a hypothetical case that you’re losing some combinations, I’ve yet to see a really legit case where you can show a net loss.

More importantly, several of the changes are binary:

1) Chronomancer gains a new powerful shatter while keeping their old shatter.
2) Numbers aside, the way the DH virtues work is pretty much just stronger than the Guardian variations (with a possible exception of F3). It’s things like gaining a leap, or ticking burns instead of applying a single burn.
3) (although I mentioned it above) everyone’s gaining 4 trait points, including access to more GM traits. — and again, these 33332 fake builds are just like the 14/14/14/14/14 fake builds we had before – fake.

Windsagio.1340:

Ralanost.8913:

You guys honestly sound exactly like the guy claiming HoT is p2w. Numbers are far from final and you are claiming that the new stuff will give them increased power. Amazingly shortsighted and missing the fact that number balance will happen. Some numbers might go up, some numbers will go down. We have no idea what the final numbers will be like so claiming there is a power creep is completely baseless assumptions. You are complaining to complain.

I’m cool with characters getting stronger, but I’m also totally happy to admit that it’s happening. The trait change is in almost every case a big power boost. The Elite specs seem to, in most cases, be stronger than their base classes. Yes the numbers are in flux, but it’s a totally reasonable discussion.

I really hope they don’t leave Elite Specs as the most powerful. I’d rather they link some of the new traits to the expansion if they’re using that tactic to sell expansions. Build diversity and all. Looking at just the trait changes I had high hopes for a lot of diversity, if the elite specs are required that shoots a lot of the options down.

Specifically Engi, you’re gonna want to get Explosions/Firearms, Alchemy was personal stuff, Inventions team stuff, Tools a mix/DPS. But you had options. If the Elite spec is required we’re just going to see Explosions/Firearms/Elite. And that’s a lot less fun.

Exception being Chronomancer which just mechanically I can’t see it being matched, and it’s a much needed boost.

I kind of agree with you, I’d rather they be more in scale – like if continuum shift replaced distortion, that would be a bit more interesting.

Making it an additional skill, I think, is a mistake.

I’m a bit confused with this topic. I always thought power creep is when an expansion adds gear or levels you have to work towards getting and when you get it your more powerful than the previous max. None of that is happening with HoT.

The traits change (stat removal) is happening to the core game, and to existing gear. They are not adding new higher stat gear, or higher levels. Your max gear max level core character will be as powerful, stat wise, as a max gear max level HoT character. The only difference is that they will be able to equip an elite specialization, which (providing they balance things right) should not make you any more powerful than a core profession.

The elite specializations only offer you different options. The damage, and other stats, will be exactly the same as a core specialization, so I really don’t see any kind of power creep here. Unless your idea of power creep has nothing to do with the expansion and/or numbers.

Rin.1046:

I’m a bit confused with this topic. I always thought power creep is when an expansion adds gear or levels you have to work towards getting and when you get it your more powerful than the previous max. None of that is happening with HoT.

The traits change (stat removal) is happening to the core game, and to existing gear. They are not adding new higher stat gear, or higher levels. Your max gear max level core character will be as powerful, stat wise, as a max gear max level HoT character. The only difference is that they will be able to equip an elite specialization, which (providing they balance things right) should not make you any more powerful than a core profession.

The elite specializations only offer you different options. The damage, and other stats, will be exactly the same as a core specialization, so I really don’t see any kind of power creep here. Unless your idea of power creep has nothing to do with the expansion and/or numbers.

Power Creep is simply an increase in power. In most games this comes through gear, but is kept in check with content that is tuned to that higher output.

With the new traits and elite specs we’re going to see an increase in damage modifiers, so while stats and base damage may not be a problem, pretty decent increases to the damage modifiers will surely be noticeable.

Power creep has a lot to do with relative power gains, such as in relation to base HP of players in pvp (as each person gets buffed in a dos arms race, they slowly become out of proportion to the balance of health in relation to output) or relation to mob health. Some people take it different ways, but in this case, everyone is getting more powerful in some sense while in many cases defense and health will slag behind (especially since they often scale worse).

There are, however, a few ta my builds that will likely be able to become nearly unkiklable 1v1, but that’s a wait-and-see sort of thing.

To more easily explain the situation, take thief as it is. Very glassy. With the changes, their base HP isn’t likely to change much (beyond the flat boost to base stats that should even out overall anyways). HOWEVER, their traits got a lot of merges and better power in general especially with the addition of 4 more traits total. That means two thieves fighting eachother will be more bursty compared to their HP pool. Hence the power creep. Players will be noticing a power boost overall, and it just doesn’t align well with various base “anchors” that the game is balanced around.

How much of a creep is yet to be seen. It might not be catastrophic, but the idea behind it so far has all hands pointing toward at least some amount of power creep.

Wolfye.7460:

How do you think ArenaNet will combat power creep in HOT? Or do you think they will do it like WoW?

I think they will do it like GW2, which is to say I don’t expect characters to be relatively more powerful than they are today.

• We haven’t seen how stats will change.
• We have only seen a hint of how traits are changing; the numbers are meant to be placeholders, so are of no value in determining future effectiveness.
• We know that some game mechanics will also be changing.

Also keep in mind that the core specialization system releases before HoT; the expansion itself is adding elite specializations, which replace one of the trait lines. Accordingly, if the core system is balanced versus content, I doubt very much if HoT is going to make things worse.

tl;dr I don’t expect a power creep issue simply due to the new system. (Unless ANet borks things up, but that would be a problem with the execution, not with the core specialization system itself.)

There is no power creep in HoT (or GW2).