Guild Wars 2

I recently watched interview from rezzed, where interviewed A-net employee (Collin i assume) was saying how racial storylines are bad, because you can’t experience the whole story on one character and later in the game you have objects (krait orb) or people you have no idea about, because you didn’t choose personal story relevant to them.

As a cure he proposes stortytelling to be in repeatable instances.
*No. No. Just no. HELL no. *

The personal storyline was great precisely because you couldn’t do everything at once. Each time I created a new char of a race i already have, i could at least look forward to seeing a new branch of my personal story, even if profession and starting map were the same. Also personal story introduced small, but still consequences of my choices.

And consequences of my storyline choices is what i want in HoT.
I don’t want a happy ending with everyone cheering happily if I went the “I don’t trust salads route”. I want asura, charr, humans and possibly norn being satisfied at the treason-free environment inside the pact, while much less numerous sylvari (cause i left some of them to die) to hate my guts behind the scenes as i chose to not trust modremoth’s potential minions.

I don’t want to be able to see all the story on one character, ergo killing any real choice and not having my choices influence further story at all. I want to make my own decisions and see their consequences through the story. So when i enter that place on another character i may select a different route, one with it’s own consequences and one that will be fresh to my other character, rather then “same old and nothing different after that either.”

Heck I’d love to see my choices have permanent effects down the road for my character.

For example trusting sylvari leading to uncovering some secret pathways sylvari spies got access to.

Or if i chose to not trust veggies, some new secret pact weaponry access granted in later story instances, because asuran researches wouldn’t trust a sylvari lover with such potent weaponry.

The problem with racial specific storylines is that you’re forced into playing a specific race. A branching racial storyline is even worse in that aspect. The different races are not played equally either, meaning most development resources should be poured into Humans whereas the least goes into Charr.

Branching storylines are fine however, but only if you plan on replaying the content. How many people actually replay it versus how many play through it only once? The problem is, would you rather have 10 entirely unique 1 hour long storylines or a single 10 hour long story? Take the personal story for example. If it was all joined together, it would be 2-3x as long and you could probably level entirely through it.

If they want a branching story, it should be replayable like the living story, but allow you to branch like the personal story. This would give you a unique experience, but not force you into playing a new character. The problem with branching in an MMO however is that everyone has to end up at the same outcome, otherwise the story is pointless in regards to the rest of the game. Because of this, you will always be funneled into a specific outcome, diminishing the story in favor of having multiple options.

Healix.5819:

The different races are not played equally either, meaning most development resources should be poured into Humans whereas the least goes into Charr.

Looking at the armor skin designs that has been going on from the beginning.

I think what Colin meant is that a single personal story line doesn’t provide sufficient information for the players to really know what’s going on unless they’ve played the other personal story lines. Like the Krait Orb, if you didn’t select that option you’d have no idea why in the battle of Fort Trinity the orb is there or what it does. Or know why Trahearne a necro is wielding a greatsword which can apparently be used to cleanse Orr. Also the full scope of events aren’t properly communicated this way, for example in the defense of LA after Claw Island was taken you only see a single Order protecting LA while all three Orders did so, and in the march to Arah you only see a single line of assault instead of all three (tanks, ships and a magical nuke).

Healix.5819:

The problem with branching in an MMO however is that everyone has to end up at the same outcome, otherwise the story is pointless in regards to the rest of the game. Because of this, you will always be funneled into a specific outcome, diminishing the story in favor of having multiple options.

Not True. There could be huge meaningfull differences in the outcome.

i.e. depending on your choices, NPC’s hate or like you, survive to live a fulfilled life in your story instance or die a terrible death.
They could even let the player character decide about the future of whole cultures , as long as they don’t plan on using them too much in future content.

They could also add two different sets of visuals and dialogue if you visit the city of the race you saved or doomed. I don’t think stuff like this will happen, but it is possible for a MMO to do.

TamTiTam.9574:

i.e. depending on your choices, NPC’s hate or like you, survive to live a fulfilled life in your story instance or die a terrible death.

In fact, when Anet first gave details on the Personal Story and the Personality System they said that this would be the case. They repeatedly gave the example of saving the hospital or saving the orphanage which would have lasting effects on your home instance. That… didn’t work out so well.

Diovid.9506:

TamTiTam.9574:

i.e. depending on your choices, NPC’s hate or like you, survive to live a fulfilled life in your story instance or die a terrible death.

In fact, when Anet first gave details on the Personal Story and the Personality System they said that this would be the case. They repeatedly gave the example of saving the hospital or saving the orphanage which would have lasting effects on your home instance. That… didn’t work out so well.

^ And I think that would have been the better way to convey the permanence of the story. With the home instance, the outcomes of those choices are always tangible whereas the PS gets a story branch played through one time and then you don’t see it again in-game. I was also super bummed that decorating the home instance with choices we made or even having something to make our home instances feel like our own was abandoned.

Weren’t dungeons also supposed to be fairly malleable? 3 paths in explorable mode, but almost procedurally generated in spots? Hopefully Guild Halls in HoT will give us a little of the home instance “lived in” flavor that we were supposed to get. I look back on a lot of the things that ArenaNet sold me the game on and they simply aren’t there. That’s not to say I don’t enjoy the game immensely, because I do, but man they scrapped a lot of the ideas that I bought the game based upon the notion that they would be in the game.

I wish we had an option to play a profession personal story as well as or instead of the racial one.

Was he talking about the first Personal Missions (until lvl 30)? Those are the best story missions in the entire game! A branching story is good otherwise it gets repetitive and boring. Come on Colin that’s like storytelling 101.

Oh god no! WOW really? If he truly said that instances were the cure for storytelling ….I just can’t even, have they not been paying attention to the market at all? Are none of them there MMO gamers at all? smh

There’s so much wrong with that statement! Why is it post launch, this team has gone backwards in game design on so many things, wasn’t this game supposed to change the way people play? Well if that statement was true then why are they going backwards to 2004? Why not stick with the new stuff out there there are new ways of doing open world events we’ve seen them in other games and you can incorporate them into this title.

Why do so well with voice acting while running around which I’ve enjoyed immensely in games like Dragonage Inquisition, and Diablo III and then try to make all content stuck behind a 5 man instance? Sorry that’s just not fun I truly hope they come to their senses and pay attention to what happened to their sister game Wildstar when it tried to do just that.

And racial storytelling is one of the biggest things that’s kept the elephant in the room going for all these years. The misunderstanding of who the Horde really is, the bigotry of the leaders of the Alliance, the war mongering all made such a good story in another game I’ve played, it’s compelling because it’s closer to what real life is like.

Windu The Forbidden One.6045:

Was he talking about the first Personal Missions (until lvl 30)? Those are the best story missions in the entire game!

Agreed. The pacing felt nice and was mostly focused on developing your character as well as introducing the culture of the race to the player.

Honestly, I don’t think the game needs to have a branching story line (although having some branches would shake things up every now and then) just options to be told in a story format. Like how the racial stories help tell one part. If you could, make profession specific stories that delve into what magic is, what the training is like, ect(reward account bound trait unlocks for that profession). Then make order stories (Lol me than what we got! ) and even crafting stories that tell what it means to master a craft and how they shape the futures and interactions of the nations/races/orders.

Things that you can tell as an engaging story are all possibilities. Instead of only telling us in random dialog books, you can also show us through adventures and missions.

I would prefer interesting choices and a branching story line over racial or profession specific stories.

I really like to have the feeling of Choice in RPGs, even if its mostly an illusion or really limited.
It makes a story about a powerfull hero much more believable if he has to say something about the course of action.
And I always have an Idea about how my character would act in a specific situation. If the Game gives me two or three Options to choose from, there is often something that kind of fits a little bit to the Idea of my character.
It’s more immersive, even if it’s just a different dialogue-Option with no consequences at all.

I think most of you are just misunderstanding what was said.
Racial story steps are great and all, but to fully experience all of the possible branches you need to roll several different characters, that is Not a good thing, and what is being proposed is simply make instances be repeatable so that you can experience all of the outcomes with the same character if you desire to do so. You can still keep it one branch per character and experience something new everytime, but they are talking about being able to give you the option to experience it all on the same one for ppl that want to.

TamTiTam.9574:

I would prefer interesting choices and a branching story line over racial or profession specific stories.

I really like to have the feeling of Choice in RPGs, even if its mostly an illusion or really limited.
It makes a story about a powerfull hero much more believable if he has to say something about the course of action.
And I always have an Idea about how my character would act in a specific situation. If the Game gives me two or three Options to choose from, there is often something that kind of fits a little bit to the Idea of my character.
It’s more immersive, even if it’s just a different dialogue-Option with no consequences at all.

Not discounting your opinion or even disagreeing with you (I enjoy my branching story too, I just don’t think it’d have to be a requirement when creating story driven content) but what you’re basically saying is you want fake role playing in your story.

To me, that already exists. You do get the feeling of choice and is mostly limited to which race you pick (that’s your voice) and kept up by the illusion of aesthetics. It’s all the same type of choice if they made them limited to options you choose. What would be the difference of having more order specific missions and having you pick to take a mission from a pool of choices within another mission? The answer is none since there’d still have to be a pool of choices when you decide what order you want to be.

Scratch that, there would be a difference. You would have the illusion of choice with instant resolution for your choice where as choosing an order that then takes on a problem in their fashion will lead to consequences for your choice all through out your character’s career. But players tend to expect “guilt free” choices, choices that pretty much amount to nothing where as huge choices of your character, like what profession they will be, they’d choose to keep separate from story/lore ramifications. I simply see that as a waste of player choice. That picking a dialog option seems to have more impact on my character than what I chose as what amounts to his career, lifestyle and source of income feels wrong. All of those choices should be the summation of my character and could help set apart another character who made some of the same choices.

Samhaim.8956:

I think most of you are just misunderstanding what was said.
Racial story steps are great and all, but to fully experience all of the possible branches you need to roll several different characters, that is Not a good thing, and what is being proposed is simply make instances be repeatable so that you can experience all of the outcomes with the same character if you desire to do so. You can still keep it one branch per character and experience something new everytime, but they are talking about being able to give you the option to experience it all on the same one for ppl that want to.

Meh, I wouldn’t mind such a change occurring but at the same time, I could care less if it ever happened.

To me, that “problem” is just incentive to make multiple characters which is something the game does need. Part of a games longevity is replayability.

My issue is with story steps being disjointed. If i chose to leave sylvari to their fate at the start, and later went back and replayed being the cabbage hero, then which scenario will the next story instance pick up? Probably none, as it’s not connected to previous because you can make all the choices you want by replaying it. That’s the point where it hurts the most.

To be perfectly honest, its those sections of the game I enjoyed the most all the way up to Claw Island.
When the choices stopped mattering and it all essentially was the same thing for every character afterwards, I lost interest in the story after the 3rd time. Especially since the choices later hardly had any impact at all. (Even LESS now that Greatest Fear has been removed.)

I always felt the beginning helped define the characters alot more. Especially with some of the branching choices there. Not to mention alot of the characters in the beginning had alot more personality and likability.

That and you also learned alot about the races and the culture around them as well a bit more intimately. Later in the story, whether your Charr who loves war or a peace loving Sylvari (pre-mordrem), your choices and actions are the same.

Which blows imo.

ZeftheWicked.3076:

My issue is with story steps being disjointed. If i chose to leave sylvari to their fate at the start, and later went back and replayed being the cabbage hero, then which scenario will the next story instance pick up? Probably none, as it’s not connected to previous because you can make all the choices you want by replaying it. That’s the point where it hurts the most.

It will most likely depend on the branch you pick last, imagine it like the regular personal story step that at the end give you an option to pick, depending on what you pick in that instance the next step will change, and if you decide to replay the instance with the option and choose differently then whatever option you choose at that time will be the one that influences your next instances.
That’s what i think they’ll be doing, the choices will be there, the different instances will be there, the only difference will be the chance to play all of them with one character if you want to.

It’s not really a bad thing. It’s just that the PS was poorly executed so there are all these plot holes and wtf moments.

Don’t pay attention to what Collin said, it was just pretext for justifying taking the easy way out.

The fact is they promised a personal storyline with many branches and options. That looked bright up to lv30, and by 40 it went downhill as all the branching soon converged and your choices didn’t matter.

They realized it’s a lot more work to create different stories and outcomes, so now they just make it all about the big bad and races are just a cosmetic choice with no real meaning to gameplay.

An important point for note here is that race story =/= branching story.

Yes, they should have choices and those choices should have consequences but at this point in the game things happening just because you’re a charr or a human or whatever seems awkward and given that i only have one non human character that i hardly ever play things would get boring and stale real quick.

ZeftheWicked.3076:

(Collin i assume) was saying how racial storylines are bad, because you can’t experience the whole story on one character and later in the game you have objects (krait orb) or people you have no idea about, because you didn’t choose personal story relevant to them.

I think he has a valid point.

ZeftheWicked.3076:

And consequences of my storyline choices is what i want in HoT.
I don’t want a happy ending with everyone cheering happily if I went the “I don’t trust salads route”. I want asura, charr, humans and possibly norn being satisfied at the treason-free environment inside the pact, while much less numerous sylvari (cause i left some of them to die) to hate my guts behind the scenes as i chose to not trust modremoth’s potential minions.

Yeah, sounds nice. However, this is more a thing for a single-player-RPG, where the whole world is centered around your own character.

In a MMO, where you play with a lot of other players, that could have made different choices, this would create a lot of problems with phasing that could not be solved easily.

Thats why you only have choices in the PS, because that is the single-player-content within GW2.

I think it would not be a good idea, if you could choose that all sylvaris are your enemy in a story instance and then go back to the open world and this choice would not matter (i.e. you could not engage other sylvari player characters in open-world-pvp) :-)

Greetings.

ZeftheWicked.3076:

And consequences of my storyline choices is what i want in HoT.

You are right, that would have been great. But ArenaNet is never going to do that.

We know they measure and use player data (as in, how many players play what, etc). See the comment about how they will not fix the issues with Charr armor (like clipping, bad textures and etc) because few people play as Charr.

We know they care about number of long ins per day (they gave a reward for logging in). We know they care about number of players in a given activity – they have mentioned it a few times, and the whole Ascalon Catacombs thing was a good sign of that (they asked a dev to change how it worked because it was farmed a lot, the dungeon was changed, a lot less people played in it since it couldn’t be so easily farmed, ArenaNet got mad since less people were playing and fired the dev).

Ergo, they are going to invest in things a lot of people play, and forget everything else.

And what do GW players play a lot? Grind. See the Silverwastes for a great example of that.

So no, ArenaNet is not going to care about a good story. They are not going to care about lore, or about immersion, or anything like that. Not when the thing that gives them what they want the most – a high number of players – also happen to be the easiest thing to create – grind.

If you are looking for a meaningful storyline in which your choices matter, Guild Wars 2 is not the game for you.

In fact, if you click right now on the red bar at the top of this page, click on “Game” then on “Personal Story”, you will arrive in a page saying:

“Guild Wars 2 is YOUR story. Your choices determine how your personal story evolves; with thousands of possible variations, no two players will have the exact same experience.”

…And that’s not true any more. It could have been seen as true in the content up to release, but nothing added to GW2 after then follows the above.

I don’t get why people are so against the idea of consequence…. It’s not that it can’t be done, it’s that in order to do it Anet would need to do some things which would cause players to whine and be uncomfortable.

How i see it playing out is one of two ways, the first being that you yourself are effected by the choice you made, if you choose not to befriend the sylvari then when you interact with them they will display a variety of hostile or resentful actions towards you (maybe a sylvari merchant refuses to sell you goods?), while some other merchants who are equally distrusting of the sylvari will only sell to you if you choose to outcast the plant people.

Alternately they could go with a voting system, where the sum total of the players actions decide the direction of the server, so you’d have one server that hates the plants and another that fights side by side with them…

I doubt they’ll do it because to many people would cry about it, but god wouldn’t it be nice if i could feel like the story actually mattered as opposed to just being placed on the “Dragon slayer hero” track… They’ll create some characters who i’m suppose to give a crap about and then kill a few of them off for dramatic effect so you can feel like you’ve really fought and bleed to kill the dragon but in the end you did what you always were going to do, you got from point A to point B. I know, i know some of you will say “but it’s all in the journey” but honestly if i already know where i’m going and there’s no ability to affect the ride then what’s the point? I don’t want to be a passenger if i’m playing a story i want to be able to have an impact.
Well…. if not that, can we at least get a fight worthy of a dragon this time around as opposed to spamming 2 until cutscene?

I agree with the OP, the racial storyline should actually be way more fleshed out, I want to learn about the culture of the race, their society and all that stuff, I don’t care about saving claw island for the X time!
And not knowing everything is good as well, that makes you want to play through the other options, just to see what would have happend, which makes the whole storyline way more interesting!!!
Consequenz is also good, I would be all up for the idea that Sylvari became the opposing race for the whole of HoT, that would be the very notion of a living, ever changing world!

And while I love GW, I agree that the “not many players do it/play it, so we aint chainging it” about things like the Zhaitan bossfight, or clippingproblems with asuran and Charr armor is total Skritt, there I said it(especially with racial armor, I stopped using the cultural t3 helmet on my charrmain because it had clippingproblems, at least cultural armor shouldn’t have those!!!)

So to colin I say: Having choice and several storylines you can’t experience as a whole on one character isn’t a bad thing, BUT having MEANINGLESS choice is a bad thing(I refer to your mentor dying at claw island, thats the one thing that really kittenes me off about the storything, while it makes sense for someone like Forgal Kernsson to stay behind and sacrifice himself, the other 2 make literally no sense and invalidate the timeline of this point completly! I mean, technichally that means if I went with the durmand priory, Tybalt and Forgal would still be living their lifes safe and sound out there, wtf?

So if I hear that “meh, they are not our main demographic” attitude about Asura, Charr and Sylvari once more from an arenanetemploye, only because they are not the 34% human demographic, I want to remind them that those combined still make half your playerbase, and NO I will not stop throwing a tantrum unless you fix cultural armor clipping at least!!!!

Wouldn’t a branching, open-ended story quickly get to the point where it would be overwhelming for future development?

I’m just imagining, if every chapter so far had a decision moment where you could make a binary choice. For it to be meaningful, the writers need to then keep in mind all of those choices down the road to try and create further story options that don’t invalidate the choices you’ve already made. At this point, that would be a huge amount of things to take into account.

Did you choose to save an individual over a village earlier? Did you decide Skrit were a sub-race to ignore, or still sentient creatures worth saving? Did you choose to proceed with potentially dangerous research against Zojja’s advice or did you follow the safer route at the expense of discovering something amazing? Are you prejudice against all Sylvari, or did you argue against treating them all as dragon minions waiting to manifest? Did you secretly take out Trahearne and dump his body somewhere in the Jungle or did you leave him to plague our future stories with his monotone delivery?

Just imagine trying to keep writing stories for the game that keep in mind so many past choices.

Not that it wouldn’t be awesome. I just don’t see how it would be practical.