Guild Wars 2

Hello, this is just a first impression of the following quote:

“Some encounters are going to push you to try different weapons you rarely use, some are going to challenge you to select traits you haven’t considered equipping before”

On one perspective this looks positive, such as bringing up builds that are more valid rather than having cookie-cut-builds. Yet is this really going deliver? AND is this something we all really want?

Here are my concerns:
-Push for weapons we rarely use, or simply do not want to use? Fractals, just as an example, can be challenging in the higher levels because they hit hard and will practically one-shot-kill. Melee is strongly discouraged except for few exceptions. Play it safe, be range and kit everything. (I know Anet have been getting better at including melee but the question stands: will there only one or two weapons viable and if you don’t use those you are a “noob”). Some people have shared concerns that they worked hard for a legendary only to not use it in favor of winning fights.

-Select traits you haven’t used before. I do not want to spend time between fights swapping traits because they are the best, or I am a “noob” if I don’t. I want to have a set trait system that defines my role and distinguishes me from everyone else. I want a trait system that says “this is my style.” To clarify, this game does not have the style I am looking for, but by resorting to what they claim here (according to my suspicion), it will be even further from what I want. As a short term goal it looks nice, but give it a month and everyone will know what trait to select for each class and it will quickly become a mindless trait switch which everyone knows what to do. Not only, but everyone will be required to do it, and so abandon their role choice in favor of winning.

The main assumption I have to make roles great is not to force people into a system, but allow the system to free people’s choices and let them choose what they want and have it be viable. From what I perceive on these two matters is that it would force people to use a certain style, though the style would be viable in a particular setting, it does so at the expense of player’s choice (thus making their style invalid). Thus in every fight the problem still persist: this is the best build for X profession in this particular fight. (Thus cookie-cut-builds persist).

This is my concern, there is not a lot of support to know what exactly Anet is thinking, but their vagueness in this description brought up these thoughts which worries me if true.

You can’t really have it so that all builds are viable while having it be a challenge to everyone. Otherwise, you’ll get what we currently have in this game which is little to no challenge.

Ayrilana.1396:

You can’t really have it so that all builds are viable while having it be a challenge to everyone. Otherwise, you’ll get what we currently have in this game which is little to no challenge.

So switching gear and traits makes it challenging?

Diba.4682:

Ayrilana.1396:

You can’t really have it so that all builds are viable while having it be a challenge to everyone. Otherwise, you’ll get what we currently have in this game which is little to no challenge.

So switching gear and traits makes it challenging?

Not directly. It’s the difficulty of the fight that leads to you to learn what is going on, what is needed to succeed, and then adapting your existing build/playstyle which includes switching gear and traits.

Diba.4682:

Ayrilana.1396:

You can’t really have it so that all builds are viable while having it be a challenge to everyone. Otherwise, you’ll get what we currently have in this game which is little to no challenge.

So switching gear and traits makes it challenging?

Requiring you to understand mechanics and how to adapt your class to those mechanics gives it depth and is what makes something challenging design. If you don’t understand that then you probably won’t be a raider.

Ayrilana.1396:

Not directly. It’s the difficulty of the fight that leads to you to learn what is going on, what is needed to succeed, and then adapting your existing build/playstyle which includes switching gear and traits.

Okay, which will work initially. But then I said above that if you give it a month or two at that is all over. That means the challenge would be in trying to figure out what to do. But there is still a “best” that everyone will have to conform to or else their build is not even viable. Viable does not mean easy (to me), it means that the challenge should not be dependent on your gear or traits at all (or most of all).

Coulter.2315:

Requiring you to understand mechanics and how to adapt your class to those mechanics gives it depth and is what makes something challenging design. If you don’t understand that then you probably won’t be a raider.

I am all for adapting, but why does it have to be with traits and gear? The point is why does the challenge have to be dependent on what build is viable or not (I know there is going to be more challenges involved than builds but I am focusing on these).

Diba.4682:

Ayrilana.1396:

Not directly. It’s the difficulty of the fight that leads to you to learn what is going on, what is needed to succeed, and then adapting your existing build/playstyle which includes switching gear and traits.

Okay, which will work initially. But then I said above that if you give it a month or two at that is all over. That means the challenge would be in trying to figure out what to do. But there is still a “best” that everyone will have to conform to or else their build is not even viable. Viable does not mean easy (to me), it means that the challenge should not be dependent on your gear or traits at all (or most of all).

Yes, viable does not necessarily mean easy. However, when it is made so that all builds are viable, this is where you lose the difficulty. This game is mainly skill-based with gear/traits assisting you.

What if you encounter a boss that puts a debuff on you preventing you from doing damage? You may need to have some people in your group to spec to a build that assists in condition removal. Or you have a boss that requires you to use a lot of CC which may require players to re-spec.

Diba.4682:

Coulter.2315:

Requiring you to understand mechanics and how to adapt your class to those mechanics gives it depth and is what makes something challenging design. If you don’t understand that then you probably won’t be a raider.

I am all for adapting, but why does it have to be with traits and gear? The point is why does the challenge have to be dependent on what build is viable or not (I know there is going to be more challenges involved than builds but I am focusing on these).

So if the boss was spamming condis you’d feel offended if the raid leader asked you to bring more condi removal than normal?

Coulter.2315:

So if the boss was spamming condis you’d feel offended if the raid leader asked you to bring more condi removal than normal?

Not offended no… but the point then is that the only reason it is challenging (or as challenging) is that I do not have condi removal… so if I have condi removal the challenge is basically solved…which means there is basically one build that I have to have, just like every other of my profession. Also, would we need support builds at all?

In an overly simplistic statement I am just saying the challenge should not depend on build but on skill.

Welcome to WoW and ff14 everyone.

Diba.4682:

Coulter.2315:

So if the boss was spamming condis you’d feel offended if the raid leader asked you to bring more condi removal than normal?

Not offended no… but the point then is that the only reason it is challenging (or as challenging) is that I do not have condi removal… so if I have condi removal the challenge is basically solved…which means there is basically one build that I have to have, just like every other of my profession. Also, would we need support builds at all?

In an overly simplistic statement I am just saying the challenge should not depend on build but on skill.

If your classes do not bring direct function X in mass, just switch to use combo fields.
It has always been this way in the game system, no exclusions there.

Inverse.2967:

If your classes do not bring direct function X in mass, just switch to use combo fields.
It has always been this way in the game system, no exclusions there.

Yes, which is why I said above that this change would further push that notion, or at least that is what my concern is. Mainly, I was hoping that Anet would steer away from going that direction, but instead, based on my suspicion, they are further supporting it.

Having to re-spec to something such as condition removal will likely only help reduce the pressure of the challenge but not overcome it.

What if you had a boss like Teq or TT but you had conditions constantly being applied to you that prevented damage? Those fights are challenging but imagine the challenge if you did not have the condition removal. Anet will likely couple new challenging boss mechanics along with something like this. It won’t be the only challenge that is provided.

Ayrilana.1396:

Having to re-spec to something such as condition removal will likely only help reduce the pressure of the challenge but not overcome it.

What if you had a boss like Teq or TT but you had conditions constantly being applied to you that prevented damage? Those fights are challenging but imagine the challenge if you did not have the condition removal. Anet will likely couple new challenging boss mechanics along with something like this. It won’t be the only challenge that is provided.

Yes, mentioned above I know this will not be the only challenge, but why have it at all, or even to the same degree as my suspicion suggest? Why not look to other ways of providing challenge that does not require so much trait changing between fights. The best case scenario would be a fight that everyone needs 50% fall reduction or else they all die (which does sound fun). But to get this you need to spec and commit to a whole trait line. Maybe also you need condi removal, which means another trait line committed to. Sure I get the fight done and over with, but was it all really necessary to make part of the challenge about what traits I have? If you need some assurance that I am not supper radical, I am okay with little tweaks, but this can get carried away fast. My main issue is not so much in the traits (which most people here are focusing on) my main issue is with the weapons. Yet, also remember that some classes only work through utilities, which means I would have to have certain utilities. Point is, too much conformity to one build as oppose to flexibility. If that makes sense, but I need to go now. sorry for the rushed description.

Unfortunately raids may not be for you if you prefer a single build that does everything. Learning to adapt is just as much a part of overcoming a challenge as is learning specific mechanics.

Ayrilana.1396:

Unfortunately raids may not be for you if you prefer a single build that does everything. Learning to adapt is just as much a part of overcoming a challenge as is learning specific mechanics.

Or, y’know, come to understand that a raid isn’t a stale 5-man dungeon or solo venture. It boils down to communication with the raid team, which is hopefully a group of people you know well. Half the work of a raid is simply getting people ready.

So that’s when you detail what you bring to the group. Sacrificing condi removal in a build to do ____. Then fill in the blank: boons, damage, control? Tell your teammates what you’re good at and they can help you find the best fit for a given fight.

Not to say adjusting your build should be out of the question, but here’s to hoping that the raid designs will take into account a mix of offensive and defensive play styles.

Didn’t they talk about possibly not allowing you to swap traits/utilities once inside?
I thought I remembered them mentioning they were still debating what exactly to let people change in there.

As it is i wont be getting HOT but if i do i will still play the way i want to with the skills i want and weapon i want i should not be forced into playing any thing i don’t want to

Switch builds according to fights. I’ve always viewed raids as an event that takes time, it used to be if you were going on a raid you knew you were investing X amount of time to complete it or to get to X part of it.

In recent years everything has become about speed, I think it’s the wrong direction, if you want a speed clear run a dungeon, if you want to raid, expect to set aside some time.

Rauderi.8706:

Or, y’know, come to understand that a raid isn’t a stale 5-man dungeon or solo venture. It boils down to communication with the raid team, which is hopefully a group of people you know well. Half the work of a raid is simply getting people ready.

So that’s when you detail what you bring to the group. Sacrificing condi removal in a build to do ____. Then fill in the blank: boons, damage, control? Tell your teammates what you’re good at and they can help you find the best fit for a given fight.

Not to say adjusting your build should be out of the question, but here’s to hoping that the raid designs will take into account a mix of offensive and defensive play styles.

There, he gets a bit of what I am talking about. I am not saying raids should be about a single build… in fact the opposite. I am saying that adjusting a build to meet circumstances will not improve diversity but will still preserve the problem that there is only one build that gets you through a certain circumstance. I want multiple builds from multiple professions and all are viable, though to work as a team there would need to be compatibility of strengths and weaknesses -communication, -skill, etc. This means as a raid there are roles that need to be filled, but as individuals you don’t have to be swapping into a cookie-cut-build that is the “best” for the circumstance. This is already a problem, and if they add this feature (as according to my suspicion) they will only worsen it.

Diba.4682:

Rauderi.8706:

Or, y’know, come to understand that a raid isn’t a stale 5-man dungeon or solo venture. It boils down to communication with the raid team, which is hopefully a group of people you know well. Half the work of a raid is simply getting people ready.

So that’s when you detail what you bring to the group. Sacrificing condi removal in a build to do ____. Then fill in the blank: boons, damage, control? Tell your teammates what you’re good at and they can help you find the best fit for a given fight.

Not to say adjusting your build should be out of the question, but here’s to hoping that the raid designs will take into account a mix of offensive and defensive play styles.

There, he gets a bit of what I am talking about. I am not saying raids should be about a single build… in fact the opposite. I am saying that adjusting a build to meet circumstances will not improve diversity but will still preserve the problem that there is only one build that gets you through a certain circumstance. I want multiple builds from multiple professions and all are viable, though to work as a team there would need to be compatibility of strengths and weaknesses -communication, -skill, etc. This means as a raid there are roles that need to be filled, but as individuals you don’t have to be swapping into a cookie-cut-build that is the “best” for the circumstance. This is already a problem, and if they add this feature (as according to my suspicion) they will only worsen it.

This is always up to individual players, there will ALWAYS be a class or build that is superior, it’s unavoidable. That does not mean other classes cannot do it, it just requires your raid to have open minds and put speed in the backseat and let fun ride shot gun.

I’ll use WoW as an example (I hate WoW but it provides examples). Currently WoW has 4 Tanking Classes, they can all tank but some are just better than others, it changes when they patch and stuff but there is always 1 Tank that is superior. Now you can still Tank with any of the other 3, it might take a bit longer or require a different strategy but it is possible. Usually everyone migrates to the Superior Tank though, because it is the most in demand, it’s up to the players to accept a different Tank that is capable even if its not as easy or fast or whatever the case may be.

Don’t worry to much with in a month some place will have a guide for what classes, builds, and weapons you “need” to use for each raid encounter. Then your only be a noob if you didn’t watch the video and read the guide. Because that how games should be played.

Diba.4682:

There, he gets a bit of what I am talking about. I am not saying raids should be about a single build… in fact the opposite. I am saying that adjusting a build to meet circumstances will not improve diversity but will still preserve the problem that there is only one build that gets you through a certain circumstance. I want multiple builds from multiple professions and all are viable, though to work as a team there would need to be compatibility of strengths and weaknesses -communication, -skill, etc. This means as a raid there are roles that need to be filled, but as individuals you don’t have to be swapping into a cookie-cut-build that is the “best” for the circumstance. This is already a problem, and if they add this feature (as according to my suspicion) they will only worsen it.

The problem with what your asking is that if multiple approaches in terms of builds are viable, the less impact certain mechanics will have.

Have a boss that get’s stronger the more boons it has? Unfortunately you won’t be able to make him that strong in case you get players who don’t want to incorporate boon stripping into their build.

At the end of the day, weapons and traits are tools to be used. It’s not a big issue if they shine in some situations and are less effective in others; regardless of what you say, that does create build diversity, not on an indiviual fight level but within that full raid run, since your constantly tweaking your build to get the most milage out of it.

I don’t understand this thread at all. The system you are asking for is literally what dungeons are. It allows people to play how they want, to stay in the role, traits, and gear they choose, and still complete content. This is the entire design problem. You cannot have difficult content and “play the build I want” because of the huge disparity between builds. You either have to force people into roles (raids) or allow whatever to work (dungeons).

Anet should lock builds as soon a the group enters the raid. Then make each boss use 2 or 3 random mechanics out of a list of 10 or so. This would promote a group to bring a little of every thing so they could cover all the bases.

Maybe it’s not a perfect solution, but it’s better than what will become of raids: after a month or two every boss will be analyzed and each class will have the most efficient spec for them listed to easily down the boss.

myself.2143:

Anet should lock builds as soon a the group enters the raid. Then make each boss use 2 or 3 random mechanics out of a list of 10 or so. This would promote a group to bring a little of every thing so they could cover all the bases.

Maybe it’s not a perfect solution, but it’s better than what will become of raids: after a month or two every boss will be analyzed and each class will have the most efficient spec for them listed to easily down the boss.

While I agree randomized boss mechanics would be a good addition – adds longevity and keeps the content fresher for longer – tying it with build locking is a terrible idea since it basically comes down to chance if you have enough of what you need in order to beat the mechanic, rather than learning where you went wrong if you do fail.

Couple that with the fact there will be multiple bosses meaning the mechanics would have to be watered right down since, theoretically, there won’t be anywhere near enough cool downs to blow to constantly attend to them 9 mechanics because everyone is so thinly spread out to ensure they’re prepared for every situation.

Ayrilana.1396:

Diba.4682:

Ayrilana.1396:

You can’t really have it so that all builds are viable while having it be a challenge to everyone. Otherwise, you’ll get what we currently have in this game which is little to no challenge.

So switching gear and traits makes it challenging?

Not directly. It’s the difficulty of the fight that leads to you to learn what is going on, what is needed to succeed, and then adapting your existing build/playstyle which includes switching gear and traits.

Or you wait a week and read dulfy. Great challenge this is.

Sorin.4310:

I don’t understand this thread at all. The system you are asking for is literally what dungeons are.

I know. I like dungeons. Unfortunately they are an abandoned content so i’m not likely to get new ones. And the only difference here will be that you will have a guide telling you what classes, builds and gear you should take for specific raid wing, and when to change one gear set for another. You may call it “giving depth to the encounter”, but what i see is just annoying hoops i am asked to jump through (as well as less free space in my bags).
This is a fake difficulty, it has nothing to do with personal skill.

TheDaiBish.9735:

The problem with what your asking is that if multiple approaches in terms of builds are viable, the less impact certain mechanics will have.

What I am asking for is that Anet does not go a certain direction. This thread was not started to create a solution nor to add some feature (though they are welcomed). That said, I am not saying that I should randomly pick whatever traits I want and it works…. I am saying that it should not be stressed as a core mechanic that we are constantly swapping traits to fit a circumstance. (so if they merely meant there needs to be people within the group with boon stripping, which was otherwise not practical for PvE, great!) If it means there will be a raid that needs a well balanced group (mixed build types), great! Though this does means they would need to trait a certain way -and I get that this is hard to avoid- so instead of asking for change I am asking that Anet does not emphasis that people would need to change traits all the time. More so, which I was hoping to emphasis more, is that weapons make up a large part of the fighting experience and it would not be nice if (for example) all warriors need a rifle to win this fight or else they are “noobs” who should be kicked out. I think there should be diversity in that melee as well as range would BOTH be necessary. Again, this is just an example. The point then, is that both are needed at the same time so someone who wants to run a certain build can do so because there is a place for him within a group. What I dont want is that everyone has to operate with a strict standard as how to play their character in every given fight. Which is what I mean by flexibility. I honestly do not know what Anet is thinking which is why I incorporated phrases like “my suspicion” and the like.

ScribeTheMad.7614:

Didn’t they talk about possibly not allowing you to swap traits/utilities once inside?
I thought I remembered them mentioning they were still debating what exactly to let people change in there.

That was a miscommunication by the devs. Currently in most boss fights you can retreat out of combat to reset your build or regain health. In Raids you won’t be able to retreat to a “safe area” to get out of combat to reset traits. However, between fights (running/exploring/etc) you can change builds as much as you want.

TheDaiBish.9735:

Couple that with the fact there will be multiple bosses meaning the mechanics would have to be watered right down since, theoretically, there won’t be anywhere near enough cool downs to blow to constantly attend to them 9 mechanics because everyone is so thinly spread out to ensure they’re prepared for every situation.

Not necessarily, for one, not all professions have the same accessibility to ability types. I dont think warriors have any boon stripping mechanic and it would be silly if you are trying to strip boons to equip the trait that gives 3% more damage per boon. That means dont roll a warrior because he has no valid build for this fight. Same goes for reflection, etc. Should everyone in the party have the same role of boon stripping and then you win? That is what I am hoping is not true, but that instead you do need some people to boon strip while others need to do something else, the different roles for the fights would give everyone a job. If one is missing with a specific function, the raid is either improbable or impossible. This means, I can run with a certain build (not a specific build) and there is a need for me, but not 10 of me doing the same thing in different fights. If that helps.

Sylent.3165:

Welcome to WoW and ff14 everyone.

Well if they succeed (and I have my doubts) it will be better than current group PvE content so……….

Astralporing.1957:

Ayrilana.1396:

Diba.4682:

Ayrilana.1396:

You can’t really have it so that all builds are viable while having it be a challenge to everyone. Otherwise, you’ll get what we currently have in this game which is little to no challenge.

So switching gear and traits makes it challenging?

Not directly. It’s the difficulty of the fight that leads to you to learn what is going on, what is needed to succeed, and then adapting your existing build/playstyle which includes switching gear and traits.

Or you wait a week and read dulfy. Great challenge this is.

Look at raiding in other games, at hard levels it can take months to get through a raid fully despite having walkthroughs.

Diba.4682:

TheDaiBish.9735:

Couple that with the fact there will be multiple bosses meaning the mechanics would have to be watered right down since, theoretically, there won’t be anywhere near enough cool downs to blow to constantly attend to them 9 mechanics because everyone is so thinly spread out to ensure they’re prepared for every situation.

Not necessarily, for one, not all professions have the same accessibility to ability types. I dont think warriors have any boon stripping mechanic and it would be silly if you are trying to strip boons to equip the trait that gives 3% more damage per boon. That means dont roll a warrior because he has no valid build for this fight. Same goes for reflection, etc.

My point exactly, in reference to who I was replying to.

The required counter mechanics would be so thinly spread out amongst the party they couldn’t make the fight mechanics too strong since there’d be no reliable way of dealing with them.

Thinking outside the box a little, that trait would be helpful if the Warrior was taking a damage role to help keep up the damage up when boons were on the target. Other than that, the only boon stripping they have access to is Sigil of Nullification.

However, that is assuming there is only one mechanic to deal with.

TheDaiBish.9735:

My point exactly, in reference to who I was replying to.

Sorry I misread, actually I had to reread it a few times before I started to see it.

Diba.4682:

Some people have shared concerns that they worked hard for a legendary only to not use it in favor of winning fights.

This is where I stopped reading !
Totally invalidates any credibility your post might’ve had.
How is this even a concern ?

They chose to make a legendary !

If a fight mechanics incentivises the use of X weapon instead of X weapon, They think it should be changed just so they can equip their favorite shiny ?

I object your honor !

This fallacy about “oh but I worked so hard for my legendary I want to only use my legendary for raiding, please make all raid content so I can clear it with my shiny chosen X legendary I love and sweat so much for”

Watch out guys. I borrowed a time machine from someone who told me HoT is not worth the price and there is a lot of QQ’ing going on. Some dungeon elitist upset they have to buy/craft more gear and can’t zerker only everything. Also content too hard need nerf.

morrolan.9608:

Astralporing.1957:

Ayrilana.1396:

Diba.4682:

Ayrilana.1396:

You can’t really have it so that all builds are viable while having it be a challenge to everyone. Otherwise, you’ll get what we currently have in this game which is little to no challenge.

So switching gear and traits makes it challenging?

Not directly. It’s the difficulty of the fight that leads to you to learn what is going on, what is needed to succeed, and then adapting your existing build/playstyle which includes switching gear and traits.

Or you wait a week and read dulfy. Great challenge this is.

Look at raiding in other games, at hard levels it can take months to get through a raid fully despite having walkthroughs.

If it will inded be at hard levels, it will be abandoned very fast once Anet realizes that hardcore community is way smaller than it thinks it is.

Sylent.3165:

Welcome to WoW and ff14 everyone.

At least in those MMOs I have a, auto raid finder I can use to play on my own time. I still think FFXIV’s LFR content will be harder than GW2’s raid content, lol. Plus their older raids get thrown in the automated finder over time. I’m not going to raid in a user unfriendly MMO because the devs refuse to modernize their game systems like stubborn children.

I did my time as a casual to hardcore raider from 1999-2014 (EQ and WoW), I’m not playing on someone else’s time and rules ever again.

latinkuro.7304:

Diba.4682:

Some people have shared concerns that they worked hard for a legendary only to not use it in favor of winning fights.

This is where I stopped reading !
Totally invalidates any credibility your post might’ve had.
How is this even a concern ?

They chose to make a legendary !

If a fight mechanics incentivises the use of X weapon instead of X weapon, They think it should be changed just so they can equip their favorite shiny ?

I object your honor !

This fallacy about “oh but I worked so hard for my legendary I want to only use my legendary for raiding, please make all raid content so I can clear it with my shiny chosen X legendary I love and sweat so much for”

wow…. uh it was a side note, never meant to be a reason to make my case…. I hope that is not all you have gained from the reading. Neither am I saying that the system should change in favor of them, the main point this statement was found in was that I do not think people should be forced to use a single weapon for a single fight thus creating a cookie-cut-style for winning a fight.

I like most of what Anet is saying about Raids and Challenging Cotent. As usual, it sounds like ANet has really examined what is fun, what isn’t fun, and worked to make their new system as fun as possible.

EXCEPT… the whole part about requiring specific Masteries. Part of the fun about GW2 has always been that certain classes and abilities were not required. We didn’t need tanks of healers to accomplish things. Roles were flexible, you could even change a role in the middle of a fight by swapping weapons. If you knew your Profession and abilities well, you could win.

Now it’s sounding like Raids in GW2 are going back to the old formula. Instead of the game letting me play the way I want to, now I’ll be required to play the way the game wants. If I don’t, then failure is practically guaranteed.

I could be wrong. Maybe Raids in GW2 will be incredibly fun. But I worry that they’ll be incredibly frustrating if we do not follow the very specific path to victory.

Tregarde.6031:

I like most of what Anet is saying about Raids and Challenging Cotent. As usual, it sounds like ANet has really examined what is fun, what isn’t fun, and worked to make their new system as fun as possible.

EXCEPT… the whole part about requiring specific Masteries. Part of the fun about GW2 has always been that certain classes and abilities were not required. We didn’t need tanks of healers to accomplish things. Roles were flexible, you could even change a role in the middle of a fight by swapping weapons. If you knew your Profession and abilities well, you could win.

Now it’s sounding like Raids in GW2 are going back to the old formula. Instead of the game letting me play the way I want to, now I’ll be required to play the way the game wants. If I don’t, then failure is practically guaranteed.

I could be wrong. Maybe Raids in GW2 will be incredibly fun. But I worry that they’ll be incredibly frustrating if we do not follow the very specific path to victory.

Except those masteries are fairly easy to earn and the majority of people who participate in the HoT content will have them progressed a decent amount to have basic access to them well before raids are activated.

Getting to tier 3 of gliding 2.16M XP or the equivalent of a little under 8.5 times if gaining a level. For updrafts it’s only 1M or about what you would get from leveling 4 times. Completing the storyline instances will net you around 69K each before taking into account boosts.