Guild Wars 2

I know we’ll have to wait and see how things pan out with raids and HoT, but as someone who plays mostly open world, I’m concerned by the thought of GW2 moving from a mostly solo-able story experience, to a WoW model of locking the final story encounters into raid content.

I sincerely hope that any potential Mordremoth encounter is not locked into a raid. I understand that some people were disappointed with the Zhaitan enounter, but I’d much rather see implementation of AI heroes like GW1 to support player choice between solo or group.

I am really hoping that raid stories will function much like explorable dungeon stories.

Yet another example of people not researching before opening a topic. Anet stated multiple times that raid stories will be taking after the main story and will be side stories.

Could you point me to where this has been addressed? I haven’t seen it.

Why would you want to defeat Mordremoth in a story instance ? alone? you the player that can be killed by a risen chicken ?

You should be able to confront him maybe in a solo instance, drive him into a corner for a last stand and the end goal should always involve multiple players, because lets face it, we are playing an MMO, Zaithan was an embarrassment to what a big bad guy should be. Why should the task of killing the bad guy a one man thing, easy to achieve? Could you provide one good reason? If you want to solo things, play a single player RPG.

I am not trying to be mean, but I don’t think that MMO’s should be a single player experience as far as killing the end boss goes, it feels much better when you work hard with others for a week or two in order to kill the big bad guy.

Solo content in a MMO is always a bad idea. With the exception of things like the queens gauntlet maybe.

^
What he said.
There is enough content people can solo. Dungeons included.

They already confirmed that raids would be side stories and that mordremoth is not in them.

MrMouser.6583:

Why would you want to defeat Mordremoth in a story instance ? alone? you the player that can be killed by a risen chicken ?

You should be able to confront him maybe in a solo instance, drive him into a corner for a last stand and the end goal should always involve multiple players, because lets face it, we are playing an MMO, Zaithan was an embarrassment to what a big bad guy should be. Why should the task of killing the bad guy a one man thing, easy to achieve? Could you provide one good reason? If you want to solo things, play a single player RPG.

I am not trying to be mean, but I don’t think that MMO’s should be a single player experience as far as killing the end boss goes, it feels much better when you work hard with others for a week or two in order to kill the big bad guy.

I don’t think you get my point, maybe I wasn’t clear.

My concern is in the implementation of Raids, and the associated announcements so far.

I’d much rather see big story boss encounters designed as personal/living story content that is accessible to everyone, and can be played solo or in a group depending on player preference.

The Zhaitan encounter worked well story-wise as the PC was accompanied by Destiny’s Edge, and Pact forces (and other players, if desired). Granted, the mechanics of the encounter were not as fun as some of the more recent LS bosses.

I’ve not seen any information that outright states that encounters like Mordremoth won’t be put into Raids, for which we’re seeing more barriers to entry revealed as HoT approaches, making them unfriendly to newer players.

Fox.3469:

They already confirmed that raids would be side stories and that mordremoth is not in them.

When was this stated?

djsarcher.9263:

Fox.3469:

They already confirmed that raids would be side stories and that mordremoth is not in them.

When was this stated?

It wasn’t said that they’d be side stories, the opposite was said. Dulfy’s Twitch stream notes on raids say “huge awesome mega reveal[s]” will be found in the second wing released, so I’m not sure why people are so quick to think the story content will be minor. “Huge awesome mega reveal” doesn’t sound like something small. In the video itself the developers say that the story in the wings will bridge the gap by introducing the next challenge players will be facing. Bridging the gap to the next thing lurking in the shadows is not side stuff.

I got you all right, and I think that is a bad idea.

The best thing about a mmo is working a few months with a group of friends , going trough 2, 3 raid wings to finally get to the end boss, wipe for a week on him and kill him in the end. I don’t want to get in there and in 3/4 hours to solo all of the story.

But besides what I personally want, I don’t think Guild Wars can afford to do cheap endings or story progression, I get invested in the story but Zaithan was the worst ending to a story that I played in my life and 90% of that was because it was a personal story fight for an amazing dragon that I had so many expectations and would have rather killed it with a raid.

Why do people want a single player story in an mmo? there are plenty amazing single player RPG’s that can be played to satisfy that need. No reason to bring that desire over.

djsarcher.9263:

MrMouser.6583:

Why would you want to defeat Mordremoth in a story instance ? alone? you the player that can be killed by a risen chicken ?

You should be able to confront him maybe in a solo instance, drive him into a corner for a last stand and the end goal should always involve multiple players, because lets face it, we are playing an MMO, Zaithan was an embarrassment to what a big bad guy should be. Why should the task of killing the bad guy a one man thing, easy to achieve? Could you provide one good reason? If you want to solo things, play a single player RPG.

I am not trying to be mean, but I don’t think that MMO’s should be a single player experience as far as killing the end boss goes, it feels much better when you work hard with others for a week or two in order to kill the big bad guy.

I don’t think you get my point, maybe I wasn’t clear.

My concern is in the implementation of Raids, and the associated announcements so far.

I’d much rather see big story boss encounters designed as personal/living story content that is accessible to everyone, and can be played solo or in a group depending on player preference.

The Zhaitan encounter worked well story-wise as the PC was accompanied by Destiny’s Edge, and Pact forces (and other players, if desired). Granted, the mechanics of the encounter were not as fun as some of the more recent LS bosses.

I’ve not seen any information that outright states that encounters like Mordremoth won’t be put into Raids, for which we’re seeing more barriers to entry revealed as HoT approaches, making them unfriendly to newer players.

As long as Mordremoth isn’t locked behind a raid/dungeon/etc, I think most people will be fine with it.

@Bobby I think you should be very careful about the extent to which you tie the games story to the raid content. Hopefully there are multiple avenues for experiencing the story, because the raid content wasn’t designed as a means to experience story, but first and foremost as a form of very challenging content, which means not very many people will be able to complete it/or put in the time to complete it.

Other games have had this problem, like WoW and its raiding scene. They intrinsically tied the story into the high level raids, and it created problems in the playerbase. Thats partially why releasing LFR was good for them, because it still let players experience the story through raids, yet allowed them to do it on a very low level of difficulty.

MrMouser.6583
But besides what I personally want, I don’t think Guild Wars can afford to do cheap endings or story progression, I get invested in the story but Zaithan was the worst ending to a story that I played in my life and 90% of that was because it was a personal story fight for an amazing dragon that I had so many expectations and would have rather killed it with a raid.

GW2 is the second worst ending ever. I will never, ever forgive Bioware for ME3.

BobbyStein.2315:

Some notes regarding story presentation in raids:

• As stated in the Twitchcon interview, the first raid wing takes place shortly after the conclusion of the HoT story in the timeline.

But… wait, does this mean that if I try to do the first wing during the last Beta Weekend, I’ll be spoiled about HoT’s conclusion ? :/
I’m now very concerned about seeing story spoilers everywhere before HoT is even released.

Blaeys.3102:

As long as Mordremoth isn’t locked behind a raid/dungeon/etc, I think most people will be fine with it.

Depends on how relevant those story components are to story progression after HoT. I mean, if you end up with sizable plot holes or a general feeling of confusion because you didn’t raid, then that might be an issue.

Dungeons are an ok example of this. The story modes are by no stretch a requirement to the base PS; however, you get to fighting Zhiatan, and now suddenly the rest of DE is not only present, but thanking you for helping to bring them back together. I do know a couple of people that had a “Did I miss something” moment there. If you don’t do the story modes, and you don’t read your mails beyond ‘dungeon now available,’ the only time you remotely interact with DE as a whole is when the story leads you to LA. From an immersion stand point, it’s a bit jarring.

I would hate to see that issue continue with story being tied into raids. IE – they set it up as post HoT events, but it leads into (and provides relevant information for) LS3. Players shouldnt have to go youtube the story to know wtf is going on.

BobbyStein.2315:

• I can’t talk about the “huge awesome mega reveals” other than to say that since the wings are essentially a multi-part story you will learn things along the way. Anything vital to the raid story will happen naturally and unobtrusively, but we’ll also have some optional stuff scattered around to discover. You’ll see elements of this in the beta that are carried through the entire first wing.

Thanks for the reply Bobby, but I think that it skirts the issue at hand. While you cannot comment on specifics for obvious reasons, I think the biggest concern is that the raid story isn’t going to be a disconnected side plot, but a vital story progression plot that provides information about the next big challenge the players of Tyria will face. Can you answer whether or not the story is one of progression and a prequel to the next big plot line, or if it is a side plot?

If it is the former I worry ¹ that I may not be able to experience the story as my character, or worse my character will be attributed to discovering things he really didn’t discover because he never made it through the raid (e.g., like it is now for characters who never did Season 1, but are presumed to have killed Scarlett). I don’t mind story being in story instances, dungeon instances, raid instances, or the open world (though I definitely prefer the latter). I do mind if it is gated though in a way that makes it so only a small fraction of the player base will witness it (even if I’m among that fraction). Raids don’t have to be difficult, it’s great that they can be and that option be available for those who want a challenge (myself included). But if they prove too challenging I’d like the option to get the lore and roleplaying experience without legendary loot.

¹ – I also worry it is is the latter as I absorb the lore wherever I can, but I can cope a little better in this situation ;-)

BobbyStein.2315:

No. Any items that directly reference the HoT ending aren’t in the raid beta.

Thank you !

It seems entirely selfish to me to ask developers to do double the work to create an encounter by first having to make a base fight that can be done by players spamming the 1 skill, and then develop new mechanics on top of that to challenge the players who the content was actually designed for – just so you can say your character was physically there instead of watching it on youtube. You can’t just increase the toughness and damage of the boss from one mode to the next and call it a day.

Making a “story version” is not free. This is additional balancing and design that has to be done that ultimately spoils the achievement for the people who want to do the content. FFXIV is already dealing with the backlash to their savage modes around this point.

This is not even addressing the concept of rewards, which would be a seperate problem entirely. Do you let people get rewards from both instances per week? What rewards are okay to give players for completing a version of content that you’re not meant to fail in comparison to “the real thing”? This is an entirely new balance problem that would need to be addressed, and would bring with it more complaining regardless of what avenue you chose.

None of these downsides seem worth the “benefit” of letting players physically hold their Forward Run key through the instance because they feel left out watching it on youtube.

Then why bother having story at all, Laggo?

By your logic, games should not have story, its selfish. People should just go read a book or watch a movie if they want story. At which point Bobby and the rest of the lore team may as well not have jobs.

I think it depends if it is part of the continuing story or more orientated to just lore as a pure side story. I haven’t done the Arah explorable, but all I feel I am missing out on is some background and informative lore pieces. If the raid is the same, then that is fine.

If the raid is progressive story or has important continuity to Living World/future Expac stories, then there is a good chance of it coming back to bite, especially if players start blocking other players based on gear requirements.

A self contained story though would be essential for any raid so hopefully that is all it is.

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

Then why bother having story at all, Laggo?

By your logic, games should not have story, its selfish. People should just go read a book or watch a movie if they want story. At which point Bobby and the rest of the lore team may as well not have jobs.

One can have a story without making the content easy. Which seems to be the case with Raids.

I’m not sure how you pulled that completely unrelated point out of my post…

We are literally talking about one (at first) side story. You have the entire story of HoT, as well as the mini-lore contained in the individual zones to explore to your hearts content.

To this day, people can’t do TA Aetherpath and that has unique cutscenes regarding the big bad of the Living Story. Where is the outcry for the Aetherpath easy mode?

You didn’t address any of the concerns of why creating multiple versions of the same bosses is not free or without problems, you just plugged your ears and invented this story strawman to attack.

Please respond when you have some solutions to the problems I outlined, and then I’ll tell you why your solutions will incur even more backlash from the community.

Laggo.8973:

It seems entirely selfish to me to ask developers to do double the work to create an encounter by first having to make a base fight that can be done by players spamming the 1 skill, and then develop new mechanics on top of that to challenge the players who the content was actually designed for – just so you can say your character was physically there instead of watching it on youtube. You can’t just increase the toughness and damage of the boss from one mode to the next and call it a day.

We didn’t ask them to do double the work. ¹ We’d prefer they just do right by the player base and not do this to begin with, but since they have here we are.

¹ – Assuming that is the case, which I have my doubts as no one has seen where the challenge lies. If the difficulty lies in the stats, damage, or timers; scaling these back would be trivial and succeed in diminishing that challenge.

lordkrall.7241:

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

Then why bother having story at all, Laggo?

By your logic, games should not have story, its selfish. People should just go read a book or watch a movie if they want story. At which point Bobby and the rest of the lore team may as well not have jobs.

One can have a story without making the content easy. Which seems to be the case with Raids.

I said nothing about making it easy. Stop making assumptions. We’ve both been here long enough, Krall, that you should be well aware that I have been an advocate for challenging content for a very long time.

As Ive said, my concern is if the story contained within the raid is relevant to further story progression. If the raid stories are self contained mini-stories that don’t impact the greater scheme of things, great. If its something that sets the foundation for and even potentially leads into, say, LS3, then maybe not so ok (given their statements that the story of the game is something everyone should be able to enjoy/experience).

SirMoogie.9263:

Laggo.8973:

It seems entirely selfish to me to ask developers to do double the work to create an encounter by first having to make a base fight that can be done by players spamming the 1 skill, and then develop new mechanics on top of that to challenge the players who the content was actually designed for – just so you can say your character was physically there instead of watching it on youtube. You can’t just increase the toughness and damage of the boss from one mode to the next and call it a day.

We didn’t ask them to do double the work ¹ . We’d prefer they just do right by the player base and not do this to begin with, but since they have here we are.

¹ – Assuming that is the case, which I have my doubts as no one has seen where the challenge lies. If the difficulty lies in the stats, damage, or timers; scaling these back would be trivial and succeed in diminishing that challenge.

This ruins the raid for the people trying to do it as ‘intended’ as people naturally do the easy mode first making the actual fight boring and without surprise. There will be backlash from the endgame players the raids were actually meant to be developed for. FFXIV, as I already said, is already suffering from this.

What if at 30% life a boss does a reveal, changes form or sacrifices another NPC, and has new abilities / music? You’ve been working on that boss for two days and never saw that phase. All that magic is gone when you spoil everything about those fights to players in snoozefest encounters. The magic of raiding is in those moments, expecting challenge and seeing those kind of things for the first time and reacting to them.

With no gear treadmill in Guild Wars 2, essentially one of the only real “rewards” to raiding outside of vanity minis and skins is that experience. Take that away and what do you have left?

SirMoogie.9263:

We didn’t ask them to do double the work. ¹ We’d prefer they just do right by the player base and not do this to begin with, but since they have here we are.

¹ – Assuming that is the case, which I have my doubts as no one has seen where the challenge lies. If the difficulty lies in the stats, damage, or timers; scaling these back would be trivial and succeed in diminishing that challenge.

Doing right by the player base IS providing a variety of content for new and old players. In case of veterans, challenging and meaningful content is the difference that sells expansions. I’ve maxed out my fractal level and have a group of folks that has aether path down to a science, don’t folks like myself deserve something to strive for with the expansion as well? Why would you assume that veteran players should be denied that feeling of accomplishment through challenging content that is rich in lore/story?

Literally 90% of PVE is catered toward regular players. I’m cool with that. But a raised skill bar for PVE needs to be more than just ‘l34t sause c4n s0l0 everything,’ in order to keep players like myself engaged. A level 50 fractal has no more story to it than a level 1, and let me tell you I HATE the repetition of it. If higher level fractals had little hidden gems of lore I would be much happier to repeat if not guide other players through. Having the skill set to conquer a raid should be more engaging than just a loot grind, and should be something you want to get good enough to see/complete for yourself. Your argument is similar to all the folks who begged for Liandri the Concealing Dark to be nerfed, and just as fundamentally flawed.

Shadow Dragon Bob.7160:

Doing right by the player base IS providing a variety of content for new and old players.

I’m not sure where you think I’m against a variety of content. I am not. I’m against stuffing important story into content a small fraction of the player base will experience.

In case of veterans, challenging and meaningful content is the difference that sells expansions.

Reread my upthread I am not against there being challenging content. The rest of your post hinges on this false assumption.

The problem is you seem to equate any semblance of story with “important”.

In other words, if you don’t get to experience it, that means it’s important and thus should be available to all.

That’s the argument you are presenting right now.

Where do you draw the line between what makes things important or not? Is one cutscene too much for you? A series of events that uses a pre-existing lore character? Introducing a character that eventually shows up in open world content?

I’m geniunely curious as to what you consider “important story” versus “normal story”.

The argument from the raiders side is that the Raids should have some kind of story attached to make them worthwhile and not just a boss rush mode. Please explain your side more clearly.

Laggo.8973:

This ruins the raid for the people trying to do it as ‘intended’ as people naturally do the easy mode first making the actual fight boring and without surprise.

It sounds like these fictitious people really don’t care about the challenge, but getting the loot gated behind the challenge. As such, they are doing the smart thing and prepping for it. If they really do care about the challenge their behavior is nonsensical. They want challenge but they enter easy mode, thus defeating the challenge. Doesn’t add up.

There will be backlash from the endgame players the raids were actually meant to be developed for. FFXIV, as I already said, is already suffering from this.

I didn’t play this game and don’t know what form this backlash took. Can you elaborate?

What if at 30% life a boss does a reveal, changes form or sacrifices another NPC, and has new abilities / music? You’ve been working on that boss for two days and never saw that phase. All that magic is gone when you spoil everything about those fights to players in snoozefest encounters. The magic of raiding is in those moments, expecting challenge and seeing those kind of things for the first time and reacting to them.

Again the players that want a challenge, yet spoil it for themselves, only have themselves to blame. They CHOSE to enter easy mode before tying hard mode. No one forced them into it.

With no gear treadmill in Guild Wars 2, essentially one of the only real “rewards” to raiding outside of vanity minis and skins is that experience. Take that away and what do you have left?

A game of choices where people who want challenge have that choice, and people who want to experience the story can. More people are happy, except maybe a few elitists who seek to deny a story experience to others… because?

Laggo.8973:

The problem is you seem to equate any semblance of story with “important”.

“Huge awesome mega reveal[s]” does not sound like unimportant stuff. I grant you it could be disappointing marketing speak, but that’s the point of the question to Bobby.

You are the one who seeks to deny a story experience to others…

Nothing is stopping you from going into the raid, getting better at the game, and eventually completing it and seeing the reward for yourself if you so choose.

You aren’t interested in that however, because it might actually take some work, so you just want to go ahead and skip to the end pressing 1 because the game has always been that way.

Why do you feel entitled to this story content? Just because you play the game? What’s stopping you from going into the raid and completing it yourself? Because people say it’s hard?

Laggo.8973:

You are the one who seeks to deny a story experience to others…

It’s not clear where I’m doing this, and you only assert it without support..

Nothing is stopping you from going into the raid, getting better at the game, and eventually completing it and seeing the reward for yourself if you so choose.

Here’s a few potential barriers:

• Individual skill
• Limits on attainable personal skill
• Not enough skilled players to play with in my guild
• Pugs being unable to complete the content without voice comm

You aren’t interested in that however, because it might actually take some work, so you just want to go ahead and skip to the end pressing 1 because the game has always been that way.

Just because you can’t seem to wrap your head around my position does not mean you get to invent unstated reasons why I’m concerned, especially when I’ve explicitly stated the opposite up thread:

“Raids don’t have to be difficult, it’s great that they can be and that option be available for those who want a challenge (myself included).”

This suggests to me you think I’m lying (or you don’t actually read), and if that’s where this discussion is going it’s far from being productive and a waste of my time and yours. You think you’re talking to a liar, and what could be more unproductive than that?

Why do you feel entitled to this story content?

Was waiting for this. People throw this word around because it is supposed to carry moral shame, but don’t bother to define it in an operational way and then show how it applies to these circumstances and not their own. What makes someone entitled?

What’s wrong with individual skill being a barrier to not even 1% of the content available in the game?

Is the other 99% being free-for-all and easy to see not good enough?

I’m sure eventually people will sell raid slots as well, or is buying a slot to see the content not good enough either?

People “throw around the word entitled” because that’s what is happening here. Because you play the game, you think all the story content in the game that you want to see should be available to you. Even if the only barrier to seeing the content is literally yourself and your own play (or wallet), you think the content needs to be brought down to your current level because it’s not fair to you.

Doesn’t matter that you will be able to youtube the entire encounter whenever you want. That doesn’t count because your character wasn’t physically there.

Doesn’t mean that you can simply learn to do the content yourself. That doesn’t count because then you have to play the game.

That’s the definition of entitlement.

Making a story mode version is not FREE. This is the part that you are glossing over. It costs development time, it introduces new hurdles with reward structure, and it dilutes the point of raids – which are supposed to be content for endgame players.

You simply aren’t presenting a benefit that is worth the cost that comes with it. The only argument you are presenting right now is “I don’t want to use YouTube” and frankly, I don’t agree with that being worth all the associated headache. Feel free to clarify this benefit if you want. I just don’t see it.

Blaeys.3102:

As long as Mordremoth isn’t locked behind a raid/dungeon/etc, I think most people will be fine with it.

well its after HoT story.. so im pretty darn sure mordi wont be locked in a raid…given that HoT is about laying the smack down on mordi

Laggo.8973:

What’s wrong with individual skill being a barrier to not even 1% of the content available in the game?

Many people play this game of a variety of skill levels. Some of them are roleplayers, some of them like the narrative arc and being part of it, some of them may honestly want a challenge and care about others experiences, and a few would like to think they are the crème de la crème and should have exclusive access to story content gated by skill (at the expense of everyone else enjoying that content). All have wants and desires, and some of those wants get thwarted by the decision to gate story content behind skilled content. Very few wants get thwarted by having easy access to story content, more wants get thwarted by gating it behind super challenging content. More people are happier and enjoy the game under the first.

This is a situation where we can have our cake and eat it too because story presentation is not a limited access good unless artificial barriers are placed on it. People who want challenging content get what they want. People who want to experience the story get what they want. People who want challenging content and exclusive access to cosmetic rewards get what they want. People who want exclusive access to story content do not get what they want, but those cries are few (if any). Really this is the first thread I’ve seen this defended. Prior to raids no one said a requirement was that they tell a story that no one else gets to experience, most discussion was about loot.

People “throw around the word entitled” because that’s what is happening here. .

Read about operational definitions, then come back to this point.

Making a story mode version is not FREE. It costs development time, it introduces new hurdles with reward structure, and it dilutes the point of raids – which are supposed to be content for endgame players.

No it’s not, but is it 8h @ 1FTE? One week @3FTE? Don’t have these numbers at this point, nor will we, and thus it’s not a point worth mulling over. What is, is your assumption that the content for “end game” players, by which I assume you mean “very skilled players”, no longer exists under the proposed solutions. It doesn’t go away and much of it remains exclusive, except the story and witnessing the battles.

What is “important” story? The lead into a new living story season is IMPORTANT, everyone should see it. It should be easily seen by everyone regardless of skill level. If my 70 year old grandfather plays (a friends grandfather did used to play and loved the living story stuff) they aren’t going to be raiding anytime soon due to the nature of twitch gameplay.

Raids should have stories, but they should be self contained stories that give you lore about side things…such as rival families attacking each other and attempting to influence the pact…could be an amazing story there with all kinds of lore from the human kingdoms, that honestly doesn’t impact the primary story nor ever be required knowledge to know what the hell is going on. You could even introduce a character in a raid and have them show up later in the LS and have almost no mention of the raid content outside of an easter egg mention. This is raid stories done properly, extra lore, but nothing NEEDED to understand and follow the primary story. Unless you want more Trahaerne’s being inflicted upon people…for anyone that doesn’t do the sylvari stories (more than you think) Trahaerne is just some random guy who shows up with a sword and is so quickly thrust into leadership position that it is downright foolish. That type of reveal should never happen again, and I say that as someone that doesn’t mind Trahaerne, as any future reveals should be done in a more measured manner that allows everyone to get to know these people.

Lets be honest people, we do not raid for story content. We raid for the challenge and the gear. Story is nice…but will quickly be ignored as the focus is on the challenging content. Anyone claiming to raid for the story….so you’d be ok with raids that don’t drop anything more than current dungeon loot right? I mean you only care about the story and challenge right? So really you just want story mode dungeons that require more people!

You can shortchange story and raiders will still eat up the content because it has loot and is challenging content they can brag about. You can even make the story pointless and thinner than a sheet of paper and most would never notice. Saying that YOU would notice? I believe you, MOST however wouldn’t because they aren’t there for the story and frankly from the moment they step into the raid they will have people talking to them and explaining the fights and what is expected of them, or what they think and feel the group should try and do on a first attempt to feel out the enemy. Not a lot of time to stop and smell the roses and feel out the story.

^

I’ve raided for years in World of Warcraft.. I couldn’t tell you a shred of story or lore about the raids.. But the fight mechanics and how interesting / cool some bosses where sure caused a lot of conversations.

my 2 cents on this statement …

“Why do you feel entitled to this story content?”
cuz i kittenin paid for it, thats why….

END OF kittenING STORY……

Will our encounter with and defeat of Mordremoth be included in the base game of HoT, or will it be added in a later patch?

BobbyStein.2315:

Some notes regarding story presentation in raids:

• As stated in the Twitchcon interview, the first raid wing takes place shortly after the conclusion of the HoT story in the timeline.
• All three wings are connected via theme and plot. Ideally, players will experience them in linear order for the best possible experience but, like Living World releases or dungeons you can play them in whatever order you choose, as many times as you like.

I think the main concern regarding this is the level of importance of the story.

Is this like an intregal part of the plot – ala the original Arah story mode or the Molten Facility or Aetherblade Retreat dungeons were to the PS/Season 1?

Or is this like a “and afterwards…” thing like all explorable dungeons are to their respective story mode dungeon? Part of the locational plot but not (directly) relevant to the primary overarching storyline?

Or is this a “after the main threat, a smaller but threatening threat threatens!” like the GW1 elite areas of Dominion of Anguish and Slavers’ Exile?

Or is this a lead in to the next plot that’s unnecessary to do to understand like Tomb of the Primeval King’s change with Factions’ release, or the first Dragon Festival event both of which led into Abaddon’s reveal?

If it’s the first, then that’s bad. But if it’s any of the other three, then it’s fine.

I’m really enjoying this debate, lol. I would caution Laggo not to wade too far into personal attack territory (which you’ve been pretty good about so far, but there were a couple of close calls). SirMoogie you’ve done a nice job with your side.

I’m pretty divided. I do feel that “story mode” raids/dungeons could have potential, but recognize Laggo’s point about development resources. They are finite.

If I had to choose, I guess I’m in favor of epic story content introduced in raids. I’m not a “raider” nor have I ever been, but to me, it sort of cheapens a major boss encounter if it’s not dripping with narrative, and set at the highest difficulty levels.

I wonder about spectator mode? Maybe a raid could allow a few people to attach to it as spectators? This tech is already partially in the game with PvP. How would non-raiders feel about experiencing the story as part of the group, but not taking an active role in the fight?

Laggo.8973:

Making a story mode version is not FREE. This is the part that you are glossing over. It costs development time, it introduces new hurdles with reward structure, and it dilutes the point of raids – which are supposed to be content for endgame players.

You simply aren’t presenting a benefit that is worth the cost that comes with it. The only argument you are presenting right now is “I don’t want to use YouTube” and frankly, I don’t agree with that being worth all the associated headache. Feel free to clarify this benefit if you want. I just don’t see it.

Given that raids are not intended to be for the majority of the players, isn’t it more honest to say that “Making a raid mode version is not FREE”? I think we can all agree that making a good raid costs more than making a standard story segment, despite the fact that fewer people will play it.

Palador.2170:

Given that raids are not intended to be for the majority of the players, isn’t it more honest to say that “Making a raid mode version is not FREE”? I think we can all agree that making a good raid costs more than making a standard story segment, despite the fact that fewer people will play it.

It’s likely that raids are actually pretty close to free, and story raids could conceivably be done for free as well, but likely not for a while.

When managers, developers, and beancounters talk about how expensive raids are, they’re talking in terms of how many headaches they and their teams are going to have, or how much money they’re going to spend.

But as players, the only cost we’re really worried about is ANet cutting other potentially cool stuff in order to keep things within some overall money/headache budget for Heart of Thorns as a whole. And I don’t find this very likely. Budgets are really determined through lots of stakeholders’ meetings etc., and it’s likely that ANet were given additional resources specifically to develop raids with because they were able to make a decent business case for raiding. They aren’t coming at the expense of other content or features.

I also believe that similar reasoning should be applied to any other feature or piece of content you don’t like.

Laggo.8973:

You are the one who seeks to deny a story experience to others…

Nothing is stopping you from going into the raid, getting better at the game, and eventually completing it and seeing the reward for yourself if you so choose.

You aren’t interested in that however, because it might actually take some work, so you just want to go ahead and skip to the end pressing 1 because the game has always been that way.

Why do you feel entitled to this story content? Just because you play the game? What’s stopping you from going into the raid and completing it yourself? Because people say it’s hard?

I’m a newbie vet with ~<700 days played yet I will never be able to do the dungeons or raids. Why? Only one functional hand and some nerve damage.
Now would I mind if the Raids had lore like the dungeons do? No that is fine, but putting MAIN story info there? HELL NO.
Why do I feel entitled to the story content? Because I KITTENING paid for it.

BobbyStein.2315:

• I can’t talk about the “huge awesome mega reveals” other than to say that since the wings are essentially a multi-part story you will learn things along the way. Anything vital to the raid story will happen naturally and unobtrusively, but we’ll also have some optional stuff scattered around to discover. You’ll see elements of this in the beta that are carried through the entire first wing.

Does that mean we won’t be forced to sit around twiddling our thumbs waiting for some NPCs to talk on every run through the raid?

BobbyStein.2315:

Khisanth.2948:

BobbyStein.2315:

• I can’t talk about the “huge awesome mega reveals” other than to say that since the wings are essentially a multi-part story you will learn things along the way. Anything vital to the raid story will happen naturally and unobtrusively, but we’ll also have some optional stuff scattered around to discover. You’ll see elements of this in the beta that are carried through the entire first wing.

Does that mean we won’t be forced to sit around twiddling our thumbs waiting for some NPCs to talk on every run through the raid?

This is something we’re very mindful of, so we’ve been working hard to find better ways of dispensing essential plot information and gameplay feedback without grinding things to a halt. You can get a feel for how we’re doing that in the raid beta that starts today. That stated, there is some optional stuff we’ve put in the raid so if you’re waiting around for your squad to get ready you can walk around, talk to NPCs (in the safe areas), and potentially find some cool things we’ve stashed in there.

We realize that there are a lot of players who want to get right into the action, so we’re doing what we can to allow for that. Play the beta and let us know what you think!

Can’t you do it like dungeons or fractals? Most of the stories were delivered completely in a non obtrusive way. Just add cutscenes whenever necessary and let us press a skip button.

This was something that really bugged me in living world too, and the lack of being able to skip anything so i can just start working already for the achievements