Guild Wars 2

With all things raid considered (boss timers, gear requirements, role requirements, importance of group make up, need for healing, the transition away from zerker meta, best loot rewards on weekly restricted official runs), I want to say that it is about time to have personal aggro, dps, healing… meters…

Stats and numbers will matter come HoT, so that means players will need more transparency.

Edit- thanks knighthonor, you reminded me of something…

Also, it’s 2015 and three years into the product life, so I think we are at the point where we should be able to move around and customize our UI, and that includes individual ability placement on the combat bar.

gets out fire extinguisher

Here you are going to need this…

Good luck with all the forum warriors who will probably never set foot in a raid or have a snowballs chance in hell of ever beating it.

I’ve got the fire department on standby

Need UI adjustment honestly.

Swagger.1459:

With all things raid considered (boss timers, gear requirements, role requirements, importance of group make up, need for healing, the transition away from zerker meta, best loot rewards on weekly restricted official runs), I want to say that it is about time to have personal aggro, dps, healing… meters…

Stats and numbers will matter come HoT, so that means players will need more transparency.

Edit- thanks knighthonor, you reminded me of something…

Also, it’s 2015 and three years into the product life, so I think we are at the point where we should be able to move around and customize our UI, and that includes individual ability placement on the combat bar.

You do know CJ did say in the twitch con vids say they wanted to move away from all the UI bars people watch instead of enjoying the raid for what it’s supposed to be, fun. I always personally found that if you need all these meters, then maybe you are not as good as you think you are. By you I mean the players who seem to thi k if we don’t get these meters there is no way we can go raiding.

In game boss times, yes they really should be a thing. As soon as they went on to the timers, this should have been in game. I really don’t see why I need a website of an app on my phone to do this.

Yeah, that’s what I’m saying about the UI. Players should be able to customize the UI to their liking so it’s a more enjoyable UI experience and interaction overall. That way players can focus more on the action instead of the UI.

It will definitely be possible, but now that roles, gear, stats, beating timers… matters, players will need to have access to their performance numbers.

Just a reminder that DPS is not everything …

It’s like the people currectly asking for 2 eles in meta groups…

Yelloweyedemon.2860:

Just a reminder that DPS is not everything …

It’s like the people currectly asking for 2 eles in meta groups…

Yes! That’s exactly why different types of meters are going to be great!

I just want a combat log printed to file. There are many useful things you can do with combat logs that don’t even have anything to do with meters.

However, DPS meters and the like caused a very toxic environment in wow, I don’t see how you can think the results will be any different here. Besides results generally speak for themselves.

As an aside, I would bet 100 gold that Anet will never put meters in anyway, so this is most likely just a post about wishful thinking rather than an honest expectation of results.

Crinn.7864:

I just want a combat log printed to file. There are many useful things you can do with combat logs that don’t even have anything to do with meters.

We can have that too!

I will never agree on this, just because it’s standard in Raids in other games doesn’t mean it’s good or needed in GW2. This has been clearly stated that it won’t happen so i’d stop asking if i were you, you are wasting your time.

I also wanted to comment that meters aside, it still doesn’t supply you the one thing that’s most important, a skill meter. A skilled player will be more important than an optimized build any day.

That being the case, I will admit I wouldn’t mind a personal meter just so I can tweak my own build if I want to. I just wouldn’t want it used in a group environment where people can bring the toxicity originally seen in wow to our community is well. It’s bad enough with some of the elitist mentalities we have already seen.

Fox.3469:

I will never agree on this, just because it’s standard in Raids in other games doesn’t mean it’s good or needed in GW2. This has been clearly stated that it won’t happen so i’d stop asking if i were you, you are wasting your time.

Correct me if I am wrong, but I don’t think it’s common to other MMORPGs, I think it’s just common to one game, World of Warcraft.

Morfedel.4165:

However, DPS meters and the like caused a very toxic environment in wow, I don’t see how you can think the results will be any different here. Besides results generally speak for themselves.

As an aside, I would bet 100 gold that Anet will never put meters in anyway, so this is most likely just a post about wishful thinking rather than an honest expectation of results.

Yeah but the gw2 community is the friendliest of all mmos so I have confidence things will be ok.

Given that the devs have approved and endorsed this one site (forgot the name) that includes gear check functions, I’ll take that 100 gold bet. I believe that the devs will allow player created apps for such things and they will be made available within a year after HoT launches.

I will add you as a friend in game and keep my word so mark your calendar.

Swagger.1459:

Morfedel.4165:

However, DPS meters and the like caused a very toxic environment in wow, I don’t see how you can think the results will be any different here. Besides results generally speak for themselves.

As an aside, I would bet 100 gold that Anet will never put meters in anyway, so this is most likely just a post about wishful thinking rather than an honest expectation of results.

Yeah but the gw2 community is the friendliest of all mmos so I have confidence things will be ok.

Given that the devs have approved and endorsed this one site (forgot the name) that includes gear check functions, I’ll take that 100 gold bet. I believe that the devs will allow player created apps for such things and they will be made available within a year after HoT launches.

I will add you as a friend in game and keep my word so mark your calendar.

I was talking about anet developing it, not a third party. If anet develops it, I will honor the bet. If a third party does, well anet is trying to give a lot of leeway to third party developers, so that is another story.

Totally agree with OP.

Morfedel.4165:

Fox.3469:

I will never agree on this, just because it’s standard in Raids in other games doesn’t mean it’s good or needed in GW2. This has been clearly stated that it won’t happen so i’d stop asking if i were you, you are wasting your time.

Correct me if I am wrong, but I don’t think it’s common to other MMORPGs, I think it’s just common to one game, World of Warcraft.

I’ve had a dps meter in every MMO i’ve ever played except GW2. Of course there are plenty of DPS meters for GW2 as well, they just aren’t officially supported.

WoW, LoTRO, Wildstar, SWTOR, Rift, all had dps meters of some form. None of them imploded due to the inclusion of such a tool.

Well, I neither want Recount nor something like Gearscore to be part of my raiding experience anymore. It was horrible in WoW, besides being mandatory for monitoring the DPS in raids. DPS-nitpickers are last thing I want to see in Guild Wars 2.

I don’t really see the point. GW2’s mechanics don’t make raw DPS calculation a reliable measure of contribution to a fight. Your DPS can easily hit the toilet if the boss you’re fighting decides to aggro you and you have to spend a greater amount of time dodging, or if you’re just unlicky with environmental hazards that force you to fight ranged for a bit, or you stop your DPS to go rez someone, or any number of things.

DPS meters really only work in classical trinity systems where the intent is that DPS is output at a reliable pace due to tanking mechanics making the DPS element of the group effectively invincible to aggro if everyone is doing their job, and the content is thus tuned around DPS running near-perfect rotations because it is the only challenge in the encounter for those players.

A gear check might display potential, but in GW2 a player’s knowledge and more important their ability to react to openings afforded them by allies and enemies are much more important. Full ascended does very little to increase your DPS compared to being in the right place for might stacks, or simply using the proper food for your build.

I just don’t see raw DPS or gear being important enough that we need the meters in this game. They were very useful tools in other games where gear stats were much more important, and dps rotations were much more reliable, but given the systems in GW2 I just don’t see how they’d be useful in a practical sense.

PopeUrban.2578:

I don’t really see the point. GW2’s mechanics don’t make raw DPS calculation a reliable measure of contribution to a fight. Your DPS can easily hit the toilet if the boss you’re fighting decides to aggro you and you have to spend a greater amount of time dodging, or if you’re just unlicky with environmental hazards that force you to fight ranged for a bit, or you stop your DPS to go rez someone, or any number of things.

DPS meters really only work in classical trinity systems where the intent is that DPS is output at a reliable pace due to tanking mechanics making the DPS element of the group effectively invincible to aggro if everyone is doing their job, and the content is thus tuned around DPS running near-perfect rotations because it is the only challenge in the encounter for those players.

A gear check might display potential, but in GW2 a player’s knowledge and more important their ability to react to openings afforded them by allies and enemies are much more important. Full ascended does very little to increase your DPS compared to being in the right place for might stacks, or simply using the proper food for your build.

I just don’t see raw DPS or gear being important enough that we need the meters in this game. They were very useful tools in other games where gear stats were much more important, and dps rotations were much more reliable, but given the systems in GW2 I just don’t see how they’d be useful in a practical sense.

Exactly this.

GW2’s combat experience can’t be filtered into a simple number. I wouldn’t be against a DPS meter, but conceptually, the way damage gets done in this game in particular defies normal conventions.

But, players are going to use DPS meters improperly, assuming that the single number off the meter is completely their own damage, when it comes as a result of the entire team’s combined effort. Might, Fury, Vulnerability, defensives and aggro management.. It doesn’t belong as a number.

Kaligos.7285:

Well, I neither want Recount nor something like Gearscore to be part of my raiding experience anymore. It was horrible in WoW, besides being mandatory for monitoring the DPS in raids. DPS-nitpickers are last thing I want to see in Guild Wars 2.

DPS elitism will never be as bad as it is in WoW. The reason WoW is so bad is because of the sheer size of it’s population. There are soo many players in WoW that you can have ridiculous requirements and still easily find enough players to fill a raid group. That’s not a luxury that the rest of the market has.

In my time in SWTOR (which has DPS meters) I didn’t see any DPS elitism. I did see a lot of bragging by DDs about their DPS.
Now that said when I did progession in that game we did have cutoff DPS requirements, which was calculated by dividing the boss’s HP by the enrage timer and then dividing by the number of DDs to get the bare minimum DPS required to beat the enrage timer. That was exclusive to progression though.

Rauderi.8706:

GW2’s combat experience can’t be filtered into a simple number. I wouldn’t be against a DPS meter, but conceptually, the way damage gets done in this game in particular defies normal conventions.

But, players are going to use DPS meters improperly, assuming that the single number off the meter is completely their own damage, when it comes as a result of the entire team’s combined effort. Might, Fury, Vulnerability, defensives and aggro management.. It doesn’t belong as a number.

A flat DPS number wouldn’t be accurate. But with nothing more than a combat log it becomes straightforward enough to develop ways to determine the effects of raid buffs vs self-buffs on DPS, and come up with fairly accurate models.

Yes there will be ignorant thickheads that try to use flat DPS numbers as the end-all-be-all, but you’re better off avoiding those people anyways.

Mark my words, we will get more transparency and gain access to important numbers now that raids are coming.

IDk about you guys but I just want to improve my own dps. At the moment, I have no idea if I’m doing the most effective rotation possible. All I can do is rely on calculations made by other players. I just want to see my own numbers so I can tweak stuff. It has nothing to do with anyone else. GW2 makes it even harder than most games to ensure I’m doing everything optimally. Most games like FF14 hold your hand and teach you your rotation as you level up. GW2 has variables for all kinds of situations and it would be fun to take a meter out and perfect myself in each one.

EDIT:
I know that flat DPS means nothing in GW2 as far as what you contributed to a fight in a raid/dungeon. It does, however, tell you that when the circumstances were right, you were doing the best you could or that you need to improve somewhere. Once again, all for the sake of personal adjustment.

I’m all for PERSONAL meters. It could have a graph at the end of the raid/dungeon with how much you healed yourself and others, condition damage, total freeze etc. I want this.

ZanchinFissure.7981:

I’m all for PERSONAL meters. It could have a graph at the end of the raid/dungeon with how much you healed yourself and others, condition damage, total freeze etc. I want this.

That would be awesome

Crinn.7864:

I just want a combat log printed to file. There are many useful things you can do with combat logs that don’t even have anything to do with meters.

Logs period. While combat logs are useful for analysis chat logs are handy to have. I use them all the time in other games to remind me of something years later (who was it that said xyz and when did they say it). I also made a mock-up of how blind players could use the program by just using the system’s voice function with an existing special client.

PopeUrban.2578:

I don’t really see the point. GW2’s mechanics don’t make raw DPS calculation a reliable measure of contribution to a fight. Your DPS can easily hit the toilet if the boss you’re fighting decides to aggro you and you have to spend a greater amount of time dodging, or if you’re just unlicky with environmental hazards that force you to fight ranged for a bit, or you stop your DPS to go rez someone, or any number of things.

DPS meters really only work in classical trinity systems where the intent is that DPS is output at a reliable pace due to tanking mechanics making the DPS element of the group effectively invincible to aggro if everyone is doing their job, and the content is thus tuned around DPS running near-perfect rotations because it is the only challenge in the encounter for those players.

A gear check might display potential, but in GW2 a player’s knowledge and more important their ability to react to openings afforded them by allies and enemies are much more important. Full ascended does very little to increase your DPS compared to being in the right place for might stacks, or simply using the proper food for your build.

I just don’t see raw DPS or gear being important enough that we need the meters in this game. They were very useful tools in other games where gear stats were much more important, and dps rotations were much more reliable, but given the systems in GW2 I just don’t see how they’d be useful in a practical sense.

Well aggro mechanics are much more defined in GW2 raids then they are in the other areas of the game. There is no random aggro in the raid fight we saw last BWE. Aggro was determined by the person in the raid with the highest toughness. As a rabid necro I had 100% aggro the whole fight. We recruited in a rabid engineer at one point and then he had aggro 100% of the fight since his toughness was a little higher.

As such dps need to do two things:

1. DPS
2. Follow the mechanics of the fight

You need to be able to do as much of 1 as possible while doing 2. A meter will let people know if this is happening or not. Obviously if you are wiping then the problem isn’t dps, it is mechanics. A meter is useful for when you are hitting the enrage timer even after surviving all the mechanics.

There is nothing wrong with having access to numbers and statistics. It’s another way to improve different builds and roles.

AzureDream.4819:

Kaligos.7285:

Well, I neither want Recount nor something like Gearscore to be part of my raiding experience anymore. It was horrible in WoW, besides being mandatory for monitoring the DPS in raids. DPS-nitpickers are last thing I want to see in Guild Wars 2.

So you just admitting that you sucked in raids and was a bad player who couldn’t get most from his class, and didnt wanted to improve. Why do you think other raiders must carry you through? Many ppl nowdays just too demanding, thinking everything should be brought to them just because they want it. Lol. Just lol. Dont write this crap, seriously.

Woah dude, calm down, will you? I never said I sucked at raids. Where did you get all that nonsense you just said from my text?

Kaligos.7285:

AzureDream.4819:

Kaligos.7285:

Well, I neither want Recount nor something like Gearscore to be part of my raiding experience anymore. It was horrible in WoW, besides being mandatory for monitoring the DPS in raids. DPS-nitpickers are last thing I want to see in Guild Wars 2.

So you just admitting that you sucked in raids and was a bad player who couldn’t get most from his class, and didnt wanted to improve. Why do you think other raiders must carry you through? Many ppl nowdays just too demanding, thinking everything should be brought to them just because they want it. Lol. Just lol. Dont write this crap, seriously.

Woah dude, calm down, will you? I never said I sucked at raids. Where did you get all that nonsense you just said from my text?

Guess you drew his aggro kaligos, you must have the highest toughness score here.

ZudetGambeous.9573:

PopeUrban.2578:

I don’t really see the point. GW2’s mechanics don’t make raw DPS calculation a reliable measure of contribution to a fight. Your DPS can easily hit the toilet if the boss you’re fighting decides to aggro you and you have to spend a greater amount of time dodging, or if you’re just unlicky with environmental hazards that force you to fight ranged for a bit, or you stop your DPS to go rez someone, or any number of things.

DPS meters really only work in classical trinity systems where the intent is that DPS is output at a reliable pace due to tanking mechanics making the DPS element of the group effectively invincible to aggro if everyone is doing their job, and the content is thus tuned around DPS running near-perfect rotations because it is the only challenge in the encounter for those players.

A gear check might display potential, but in GW2 a player’s knowledge and more important their ability to react to openings afforded them by allies and enemies are much more important. Full ascended does very little to increase your DPS compared to being in the right place for might stacks, or simply using the proper food for your build.

I just don’t see raw DPS or gear being important enough that we need the meters in this game. They were very useful tools in other games where gear stats were much more important, and dps rotations were much more reliable, but given the systems in GW2 I just don’t see how they’d be useful in a practical sense.

Well aggro mechanics are much more defined in GW2 raids then they are in the other areas of the game. There is no random aggro in the raid fight we saw last BWE. Aggro was determined by the person in the raid with the highest toughness. As a rabid necro I had 100% aggro the whole fight. We recruited in a rabid engineer at one point and then he had aggro 100% of the fight since his toughness was a little higher.

As such dps need to do two things:

1. DPS
2. Follow the mechanics of the fight

You need to be able to do as much of 1 as possible while doing 2. A meter will let people know if this is happening or not. Obviously if you are wiping then the problem isn’t dps, it is mechanics. A meter is useful for when you are hitting the enrage timer even after surviving all the mechanics.

Right, however that was one fight. Given that “main tanking” isn’t a core mechanic, but a special encounter mechanic everywhere we’ve seen it used in GW2, I have doubts that every encounter will have such predictable aggro.

In this fight it’s toughness, in the ooze puzzle its a buff, but it could easily be a “hot potato” mechanic like the cliffside hammer in another fight that you have to rotate, or a more intricate slit without hard aggro like the tongue boss seems to be.

Mostly I cringe at the idea of overbearing UI. If we’re going to build it in to the system, it would be preferable that it be handled by anet, and handled post-fight with a popup rather than mid-fight with some silly obtrusive window.

Players being jerks is less of a thing I care about. One should assume that if you’re pugging (the only place anybody cares about gearchecking you or kicking you for low DPS) then you’re going to run in to jerks some percentage of the time, as PUGs are the last refuge of people to abrasive to make regular friends to do content with.

Personally I’ve never seen the need for either tool, both as a raid leader and as a player. If you have a regular group you raid with, that group is probably going to be honest and helpful when it comes to optimization or pinpointing why encounters are failing. If you’re running a PUG group, you have to assume that you’re going to end up with some jerks and baddies who don’t want to learn to get better some times, and no amount of meters are going to stop them from being jerks and baddies.

Swagger.1459:

Kaligos.7285:

AzureDream.4819:

Kaligos.7285:

Well, I neither want Recount nor something like Gearscore to be part of my raiding experience anymore. It was horrible in WoW, besides being mandatory for monitoring the DPS in raids. DPS-nitpickers are last thing I want to see in Guild Wars 2.

So you just admitting that you sucked in raids and was a bad player who couldn’t get most from his class, and didnt wanted to improve. Why do you think other raiders must carry you through? Many ppl nowdays just too demanding, thinking everything should be brought to them just because they want it. Lol. Just lol. Dont write this crap, seriously.

Woah dude, calm down, will you? I never said I sucked at raids. Where did you get all that nonsense you just said from my text?

Guess you drew his aggro kaligos, you must have the highest toughness score here.

Seems legit.

ZudetGambeous.9573:

Morfedel.4165:

Fox.3469:

I will never agree on this, just because it’s standard in Raids in other games doesn’t mean it’s good or needed in GW2. This has been clearly stated that it won’t happen so i’d stop asking if i were you, you are wasting your time.

Correct me if I am wrong, but I don’t think it’s common to other MMORPGs, I think it’s just common to one game, World of Warcraft.

I’ve had a dps meter in every MMO i’ve ever played except GW2. Of course there are plenty of DPS meters for GW2 as well, they just aren’t officially supported.

WoW, LoTRO, Wildstar, SWTOR, Rift, all had dps meters of some form. None of them imploded due to the inclusion of such a tool.

And I’ve never had a dps meter of any kind in any game I played: Everquest, Asheron’s Call, DAoC, etc. Experiences clearly differ. Regardless, I’ve heard nothing but complaints about the elitism expressed via the dps and healing meters, and just how crappy people got treated concerning it.

Also, just because a game didn’t implode because of dps meters doesn’t mean it isn’t toxic. WoW has been the biggest mmo for some time, and yet the entire metered proof of skill caused a great deal of problems and hard feelings in what is nothing more than a game.

As I said before, I truly don’t believe that ANET will ever insert a dps meter. And I won’t play with a group that requires meters, gear check, etc. Been playing since beta, I can beat anything, but I don’t feel like I need to pass a test in order to play a game.

Considering there is such strong opposition to the idea anyway, it isn’t going to happen – not by ANET anyway. I won’t speak about third party, but the only third party I myself have ever used was the lfg tool before anet finally got around to inserting their own (as a side note, that was one heck of an oversight for anet to leave out from the start).

ZanchinFissure.7981:

I’m all for PERSONAL meters. It could have a graph at the end of the raid/dungeon with how much you healed yourself and others, condition damage, total freeze etc. I want this.

I have no problem with personal meters. If I wanted to examine how I’m doing numerically. I just despise the elitism that dps / gear checks seem to inspire.

AzureDream.4819:

Kaligos.7285:

Well, I neither want Recount nor something like Gearscore to be part of my raiding experience anymore. It was horrible in WoW, besides being mandatory for monitoring the DPS in raids. DPS-nitpickers are last thing I want to see in Guild Wars 2.

So you just admitting that you sucked in raids and was a bad player who couldn’t get most from his class, and didnt wanted to improve. Why do you think other raiders must carry you through? Many ppl nowdays just too demanding, thinking everything should be brought to them just because they want it. Lol. Just lol. Dont write this crap, seriously.

No he isn’t. He said he hated it. People don’t have to be crappy players to hate the kittenty attitude some players have.

And making assumptions like that… well, you know the saying.

I would like to advise everyone to post your toughness numbers with your comments so I can make sure my gear is sufficient enough to tank properly and hold the aggro. Also, let’s all make sure to dodge roll away from the negativity so we don’t trigger the unavoidable mod damage that our healers won’t be able to handle. Remember if we wipe, I won’t be able to start another official thread run until next week.

Thanks

Morfedel.4165:

No he isn’t. He said he hated it. People don’t have to be crappy players to hate the kittenty attitude some players have.

And making assumptions like that… well, you know the saying.

Well maybe he will just prove that he’s a good player by linking his account in wow? ) I guess its not an option. Its just why hate raid tools if you are good? I cant see the point here. Its never been an issue to half-descent players.

Swagger.1459:

I would like to advise everyone to post your toughness numbers with your comments so I can make sure my gear is sufficient enough to tank properly and hold the aggro. Also, let’s all make sure to dodge roll away from the negativity so we don’t trigger the unavoidable mod damage that our healers won’t be able to handle. Remember if we wipe, I won’t be able to start another official thread run until next week.

Thanks

Over 9000… no wonder I got the aggro from AzureDream.

AzureDream.4819:

Morfedel.4165:

No he isn’t. He said he hated it. People don’t have to be crappy players to hate the kittenty attitude some players have.

And making assumptions like that… well, you know the saying.

Well maybe he will just prove that he’s a good player by linking his account in wow? ) I guess its not an option. Its just why hate raid tools if you are good? I cant see the point here. Its never been an issue to half-descent players.

My WoW-acc is deactivated for over 3 years. And any reason why I should link it here, where nobody even cares about what I had in WoW?

Kaligos.7285:

AzureDream.4819:

Morfedel.4165:

No he isn’t. He said he hated it. People don’t have to be crappy players to hate the kittenty attitude some players have.

And making assumptions like that… well, you know the saying.

Well maybe he will just prove that he’s a good player by linking his account in wow? ) I guess its not an option. Its just why hate raid tools if you are good? I cant see the point here. Its never been an issue to half-descent players.

My WoW-acc is deactivated for over 3 years. And any reason why I should link it here, where nobody even cares about what I had in WoW?

You don’t need to link anything. He is making the claim, it is up to him to prove the point or admit that he is full of it.

Dishonest people will be dishonest. You shouldn’t worry about it.

Swagger.1459:

I would like to advise everyone to post your toughness numbers with your comments so I can make sure my gear is sufficient enough to tank properly and hold the aggro. Also, let’s all make sure to dodge roll away from the negativity so we don’t trigger the unavoidable mod damage that our healers won’t be able to handle. Remember if we wipe, I won’t be able to start another official thread run until next week.

Thanks

To continue the analogy..

You should’ve looked up the raid strat (previous threads :P) and learned from those first.

I’d say “contributed to and expanded them,” but they all get closed, because some people feel they have to be mean and crude about it. :\
But yeh, Urban’s pretty spot on. The haters and jerks will be haters and jerks with or without DPS meters.

Given how complex and interwoven damage components are in GW2, I’m certain that there won’t be a clean execution method for it. (Or at least not in the foreseeable future.) Expect that to be a core reason for ANet not doing it.
It would involve tracking Might/Fury stacks and sources, attributing damage to those people who provided the stacks, tracking Vulnerability and giving that damage to the players who stacked it.. It’d be a mess. If not, you get that one selfish twit who goes all solo-damage, then complains that everyone else wasn’t doing might/vuln.

And, honestly, damage meters have been classically easy to break, except in monolithic boss fights. Once minions and other trash get involved, you can bet the Epidemic necro is going to be topping meters.

I highlight all this not to kew “no meters,” but to detail that the kinds of numbers sought are supposed to be a tool. A metaphorical screwdriver. What most players will end up doing is using a hammer instead.

Thought so. Just wanted to know real reason behind your hating of raid tools and meters. It just made for people to learn and get better. Like indicators. If numbers are low – you doing something wrong. And so on.

Rauderi.8706:

Swagger.1459:

I would like to advise everyone to post your toughness numbers with your comments so I can make sure my gear is sufficient enough to tank properly and hold the aggro. Also, let’s all make sure to dodge roll away from the negativity so we don’t trigger the unavoidable mod damage that our healers won’t be able to handle. Remember if we wipe, I won’t be able to start another official thread run until next week.

Thanks

To continue the analogy..

You should’ve looked up the raid strat (previous threads :P) and learned from those first.

I’d say “contributed to and expanded them,” but they all get closed, because some people feel they have to be mean and crude about it. :\
But yeh, Urban’s pretty spot on. The haters and jerks will be haters and jerks with or without DPS meters.

Given how complex and interwoven damage components are in GW2, I’m certain that there won’t be a clean execution method for it. (Or at least not in the foreseeable future.) Expect that to be a core reason for ANet not doing it.
It would involve tracking Might/Fury stacks and sources, attributing damage to those people who provided the stacks, tracking Vulnerability and giving that damage to the players who stacked it.. It’d be a mess. If not, you get that one selfish twit who goes all solo-damage, then complains that everyone else wasn’t doing might/vuln.

And, honestly, damage meters have been classically easy to break, except in monolithic boss fights. Once minions and other trash get involved, you can bet the Epidemic necro is going to be topping meters.

I highlight all this not to kew “no meters,” but to detail that the kinds of numbers sought are supposed to be a tool. A metaphorical screwdriver. What most players will end up doing is using a hammer instead.

Sure, there are tons of factors but it can be useful to get accurate base numbers on training dummies to make comparisons and experiment with builds.

Personal stats are always nice to have for various reasons.

I would love to see same dps meter like in skyforge, it show dps of all party members but it also show exact number of Dmg from all skills used by one person so you can actually see what skills ar most useful and what you should use. Same with healing meter.

AzureDream.4819:

Thought so. Just wanted to know real reason behind your hating of raid tools and meters. It just made for people to learn and get better. Like indicators. If numbers are low – you doing something wrong. And so on.

Numbers, specifically raw damage, don’t define skill, you know… Using skills in the right time does. Do numbers teach you what buttons you have to use for a good dps rotation? No, they don’t.

#justmy2cents

But with modern raid tools you can also see what skills raiders used, how much, when, and many-many other things. Who died from what, where fails was, etc.
Looking into this definetely will lead to improving performance.

I remember a time when people completed raids and didn’t need an extra bar to ..

1) enlarge their peen.
2) tell them that they completed the raid.

It’s not needed.

The more the devs move away from the zerker meta and make content designed for roles with an emphasis on gear, the desire to have access to numbers will increase. Optional gear check is already allowed by the devs through the GW2 Efficiency site, so it’s just a natural progression from here.

It will start with Druid healing coefficients, then move on to healing game wide, then toughness numbers and holding aggro, dps related numbers to beat timers… The devs are already balancing skills and numbers for raids so the players will want access to number tools and graphs as well.