Raids and meters...
That’s the spirit!
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221 hours over 1,581 days of bank space/hot pve/lion’s arch afk and some wvw.
221 hours over 1,581 days of bank space/hot pve/lion’s arch afk and some wvw.
As some ppl said already in other thread – its just strange ppl thinking they wont need damage in raids. There WILL be need in dps in raid groups. Its just natural. And its nothing wrong with wanting to damage more optimal way.
Sure, there are tons of factors but it can be useful to get accurate base numbers on training dummies to make comparisons and experiment with builds.
Personal stats are always nice to have for various reasons.
Even that has its problems. The engi that stacks 15 might on himself gets only 10 stacks of benefit from his fellows. Training dummies don’t go below half health, or if they do, they kinda sit there and inflate damage because of a plethora of ‘below half health’ traits.
Point being, a player’s personal contributions to his damage can only be but so consistent and measurable, but it eventually gets confounded with everyone else’s.
As a self-improvement tool, sure, but a dps meter isn’t going to mean as much as people seem to think it will mean, especially for raids.
Many alts; handle it!
“I’m finding companies should sell access to forums,
it seems many like them better than the games they comment on.” -Horrorscope.7632
“I’m finding companies should sell access to forums,
it seems many like them better than the games they comment on.” -Horrorscope.7632
Meters are a QoL item, nothing more. If the Raids can be completed without them (which I’m sure they will be) there is no need for any form of meter.
Not that I have anything against meters, but it seems some people are so blinded by addon’s that they think it’s simply not possible without it.
WoW raids failed because of meters and you ask for meters?
Its simple enough, 3 types of people/gamers .
1) Those who feel when they play and have fast brains and reflexives, even if they have weak gears, they ascribe to their cause, without issues.
2) people who actually do exactly what you tell them, but nothing more and nothing less, this is a very stress thing, if you lead and fail… WoW is known for their vocal and screaming raids… They actually dont feel, they act like robots… lol (thats a proof that even if you qualify in the dps meters, you dont qualify for the rest of the thing).
3) those who actually cannot get the thing working…
dps meters refer to category number 2 and number 3.
so the answer is a clear NO, or else it will fail one more time.
I believe if your passion is to show off your thing, your thing is not my thing… lol But you could request from players, to link their gear. This is more than enough.
(edited by Oyranos.9750)
If they want to support raid content in a big way, going in to the future, then they will have to support meters in some capacity eventually. It doesn’t mean they need to create one themselves. They just need to make it more workable for people to create meters of their own with addons.
To my understanding, it is currently possible to have a janky personal DPS meter, but nothing to compare numbers with others in real-time.
Being afraid of elitism is understandable, especially in faceroll content like the Shadow Behemoth. But what you have to understand about raids is that raids are elite content. That’s always how they’ve been designed. You are supposed to be good at the game to complete a raid and have a team of people who are good at the game with you.
There is nothing wrong with a little bit of elitism in a raid and now that we’re going to have them, meters make perfect sense. The distinction is this:
Meters should NOT make their way into casual game modes. Not group meters, that is (personal damage or healing is another matter). If they can find a way to support group meters, but restrict them to raid content (and maybe fractals) that would be the best solution for everyone, I think.
Or words to that effect.
No he isn’t. He said he hated it. People don’t have to be crappy players to hate the kittenty attitude some players have.
And making assumptions like that… well, you know the saying.
Well maybe he will just prove that he’s a good player by linking his account in wow? ) I guess its not an option. Its just why hate raid tools if you are good? I cant see the point here. Its never been an issue to half-descent players.
I disagree with DPS meters in GW2. Are you going to try and tell me that I’m not a good player despite knowing nothing about me?
I disagree with DPS meters in GW2. Are you going to try and tell me that I’m not a good player despite knowing nothing about me?
Maybe you are, maybe you aren’t. DPS meters have got little to do with who is and isn’t a good player. They are about optimization and passing DPS checks. Healing meters are about passing healing checks.
The general idea is, if a raid boss is tuned around optimal damage and healing output from each player to survive and kill the boss, then knowing who isn’t pulling high enough numbers is kind of important.
IF and only IF GW2 raids leave lots of time for error will meters be unnecessary.
The thing about raiding elitism is that a lot of it stems from those harsh DPS checks and the competition of being the first to take down a boss. People will be kittens sometimes, but in principle, it’s not supposed to be a matter of personal insults. It’s a matter of win or lose.
Or words to that effect.
People will be kittens sometimes, but in principle, it’s not supposed to be a matter of personal insults. It’s a matter of win or lose.
Its exactly what I wanted to say. Nothing personal is involved in meters. People just want to make their group work. As long as bosses being killed – I could care less about meters. But when there are lots of wipes – it is 100% of some ppl not doing what are they supposed to do. Meters just helping in exposing who is slacking off and in what manner exactly. Its not like its end of the world. People are learning, and so. They can give advices one another to help improve. And without meters there will be just painful and long wipe processes without knowing the reason, when its not obvious like some stood in aoe, and so.
“They are about optimization and passing DPS checks”
Logs are significantly better at this than meters. Learning to read a log with proper time stamps while comparing it to a video recording of a wipe is the best way to learn what mistakes are being made and why. Then it’s up to the guild/raid group to fix those issues with the tools they have at their disposal. DPS meters offer so little in this regard, even the more advanced ones.
“The general idea is, if a raid boss is tuned around optimal damage and healing output from each player to survive and kill the boss, then knowing who isn’t pulling high enough numbers is kind of important.”
You can’t have that in GW2. Having strict, WoW-like tanking/healing/DPS checks can’t work with GW2’s combat, item and economy systems. At least, it can’t work unless the devs want to exclude players who can’t afford to maintain multiple sets of ascended gear per character and force players to have multiple characters with multiple sets of ascended gear in order to fulfill every possible role that a given profession could be called on providing to a raid.
“The thing about raiding elitism is that a lot of it stems from those harsh DPS checks and the competition of being the first to take down a boss”
No, it stems from people being socially inept, aka, complete kittening kittens. In my extremely extensive raiding career, I’ve only ever seen maybe 2 or 3 examples of situations where players were screwing up on such a massive scale that you could track it by looking at a meter. Rest of the time, looking at meters was only for kitten purposes and gleaming which classes were best suited for a particular encounter – and that last part could be guessed simply by knowledge of game mechanics and knowledge of the encounter at hand instead of having your hand held by a meter pointing out that, hey! this class who’s bad at this particular role on a fight that completely emphasizes the role they’re bad at doesn’t perform as well as other classes.
I disagree with DPS meters in GW2. Are you going to try and tell me that I’m not a good player despite knowing nothing about me?
Maybe you are, maybe you aren’t. DPS meters have got little to do with who is and isn’t a good player. They are about optimization and passing DPS checks. Healing meters are about passing healing checks.
The general idea is, if a raid boss is tuned around optimal damage and healing output from each player to survive and kill the boss, then knowing who isn’t pulling high enough numbers is kind of important.
IF and only IF GW2 raids leave lots of time for error will meters be unnecessary.
The thing about raiding elitism is that a lot of it stems from those harsh DPS checks and the competition of being the first to take down a boss. People will be kittens sometimes, but in principle, it’s not supposed to be a matter of personal insults. It’s a matter of win or lose.
The issue is they are simply not needed and turns off a lot of people. If Anet says "yup, it’s ok, go ahead and create one for yoursleves) it becomes a mandatory feature even if it’s not needed. If they say no, then raids seem more friendly for everyone.
The unfortunate part is, there is no real middle ground, they will either be mandatory or they won’t be allowed. You could use the argument of players having the option but you and I both know that this is nothing more than an excuse and will not be the case at all.
I said it before, personally I have nothing against meters, but I can see the conflict they cause and will lean towards not having them based on this conflict.
Just let the people play the game, if they can complete a raid without it there is no need for it. If you feel that you and your group/guild/friends/whoever benefit from a meter then brainstorm a way to test all factors for yourselves and go forward with the builds and rotations you find to be the best results. You don’t need meters to do the work for you, put some effort in if its that important to you.
No he isn’t. He said he hated it. People don’t have to be crappy players to hate the kittenty attitude some players have.
And making assumptions like that… well, you know the saying.
Well maybe he will just prove that he’s a good player by linking his account in wow? ) I guess its not an option. Its just why hate raid tools if you are good? I cant see the point here. Its never been an issue to half-descent players.
Being good or not has nothing to do with whether something is unpleasant or not. To me, having seen the elitist mentalities sometimes, its like siting next to someone making racist jokes: its just unpleasant and undesirable.
Let me tell you, there was this one guy in a previous guild I was in who was, honestly, kitten ed good. But he was also always bragging about how good he was, and not in a joking manner – he was the best kitten ed player ever on GW2, just ask him. And he wouldn’t be joking.
His being good though doesn’t excuse the attitude, and it doesn’t make it pleasant to put up with. This is the same thing: finding something unpleasant isn’t indicative of skill.
“They are about optimization and passing DPS checks”
Logs are significantly better at this than meters. Learning to read a log with proper time stamps while comparing it to a video recording of a wipe is the best way to learn what mistakes are being made and why. Then it’s up to the guild/raid group to fix those issues with the tools they have at their disposal. DPS meters offer so little in this regard, even the more advanced ones.
“The general idea is, if a raid boss is tuned around optimal damage and healing output from each player to survive and kill the boss, then knowing who isn’t pulling high enough numbers is kind of important.”
You can’t have that in GW2. Having strict, WoW-like tanking/healing/DPS checks can’t work with GW2’s combat, item and economy systems. At least, it can’t work unless the devs want to exclude players who can’t afford to maintain multiple sets of ascended gear per character and force players to have multiple characters with multiple sets of ascended gear in order to fulfill every possible role that a given profession could be called on providing to a raid.
“The thing about raiding elitism is that a lot of it stems from those harsh DPS checks and the competition of being the first to take down a boss”
No, it stems from people being socially inept, aka, complete kittening kittens. In my extremely extensive raiding career, I’ve only ever seen maybe 2 or 3 examples of situations where players were screwing up on such a massive scale that you could track it by looking at a meter. Rest of the time, looking at meters was only for kitten purposes and gleaming which classes were best suited for a particular encounter – and that last part could be guessed simply by knowledge of game mechanics and knowledge of the encounter at hand instead of having your hand held by a meter pointing out that, hey! this class who’s bad at this particular role on a fight that completely emphasizes the role they’re bad at doesn’t perform as well as other classes.
I agree with all of this. +1.
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You know, I’ll tell you, in theory I have no problems with the idea of dps and healing meters… the problem for me is when its used as an excuse for people to act like jerks. THAT’S my issue.
“They are about optimization and passing DPS checks”
Logs are significantly better at this than meters. Learning to read a log with proper time stamps while comparing it to a video recording of a wipe is the best way to learn what mistakes are being made and why. Then it’s up to the guild/raid group to fix those issues with the tools they have at their disposal. DPS meters offer so little in this regard, even the more advanced ones.
A DPS meter is a log though… also, I’m talking about DPS checks. If you are failing a DPS check because your overall DPS is too low, a DPS meter will show very quickly who is not pulling their weight. Way faster than some complex process using a video and logs.
“The general idea is, if a raid boss is tuned around optimal damage and healing output from each player to survive and kill the boss, then knowing who isn’t pulling high enough numbers is kind of important.”
You can’t have that in GW2. Having strict, WoW-like tanking/healing/DPS checks can’t work with GW2’s combat, item and economy systems. At least, it can’t work unless the devs want to exclude players who can’t afford to maintain multiple sets of ascended gear per character and force players to have multiple characters with multiple sets of ascended gear in order to fulfill every possible role that a given profession could be called on providing to a raid.
Yes, copying WoW is obviously not going to happen. They made that clear when they eschewed the trinity for, what is it now, 3 years? Even if they wanted to change it now, they would have to revamp combat balancing and every profession from the ground up. The closest they can do is tanky traits and a taunt or two (same idea with healing).
What this has to do with being forced to carry multiple sets of gear, I’ll never know. I played a raiding game for 2-3 years. I’m not some nub, who’s purely theorizing. And my experience says, even in that game, where trinity was built in from the start, plenty of people got away with only having one set of gear. Most of them DPS’ers. It was the healers and tanks, really, who needed to have more than one set, for the most part.
“The thing about raiding elitism is that a lot of it stems from those harsh DPS checks and the competition of being the first to take down a boss”
No, it stems from people being socially inept, aka, complete kittening kittens. In my extremely extensive raiding career, I’ve only ever seen maybe 2 or 3 examples of situations where players were screwing up on such a massive scale that you could track it by looking at a meter. Rest of the time, looking at meters was only for kitten purposes and gleaming which classes were best suited for a particular encounter – and that last part could be guessed simply by knowledge of game mechanics and knowledge of the encounter at hand instead of having your hand held by a meter pointing out that, hey! this class who’s bad at this particular role on a fight that completely emphasizes the role they’re bad at doesn’t perform as well as other classes.
In my “extremely extensive” raiding career, I’ve seen countless situations where a DPS meter was helpful. So I see your “experience card” and raise you with my own. As for figuring out what class is best at DPS from no DPS meter, that makes no sense at all. You can guess whose utility abilities will be most useful, but you can’t guess at DPS with no ability to track DPS.
I don’t know what you’re talking about at this point.
Or words to that effect.
The issue is they are simply not needed and turns off a lot of people. If Anet says "yup, it’s ok, go ahead and create one for yoursleves) it becomes a mandatory feature even if it’s not needed. If they say no, then raids seem more friendly for everyone.
The unfortunate part is, there is no real middle ground, they will either be mandatory or they won’t be allowed. You could use the argument of players having the option but you and I both know that this is nothing more than an excuse and will not be the case at all.
I said it before, personally I have nothing against meters, but I can see the conflict they cause and will lean towards not having them based on this conflict.
Just let the people play the game, if they can complete a raid without it there is no need for it. If you feel that you and your group/guild/friends/whoever benefit from a meter then brainstorm a way to test all factors for yourselves and go forward with the builds and rotations you find to be the best results. You don’t need meters to do the work for you, put some effort in if its that important to you.
I don’t see anything in particular to disagree with here. I think I’ve made it clear that I am talking about IF Anet starts leaning in the direction of raids that have fine-tuned DPS checks. Right now, I have no idea. I have not tested the existing raids and they are in beta to boot.
I am talking about IFs here.
And in this IF scenario, you wouldn’t go in “for fun” and kill the raid bosses in a day. You can have fun doing it, of course, but the question is whether these raids are going to be for the casual-minded or whether they will delve into hardcore territory. Usually how raid cycles work (in games where they are more hardcore) is the raids are tougher on release, but they get nerfed after a few months.
Or words to that effect.
gets out fire extinguisher
Here you are going to need this…
Good luck with all the forum warriors who will probably never set foot in a raid or have a snowballs chance in hell of ever beating it.
DPS meters really have no place in this game, or in any other game. I’ve participated in a lot of raid content, and DPS meters never really served and purpose aside public shaming. Did they help us beat the content? No. All they did was destroy morale.
It is up to the player to ensure that they do the best they can, and bring their A-game. In this sort of game it should be clear who isn’t pulling their weight. It’s clear on other games. If you know what your doing, you’re likely going to survive until the end of the fight. If you’re not, then you’re probably going to die having not paid attention to the mechanics, and your DPS will fall flat on its face.
“A DPS meter is a log though”
Unless DPS meters have evolved to the point of showing who starts casting what at what time on which target and the exact timing of buffs and debuffs being applied and expiring (as well as their spell IDs), then they still don’t compare to what logs have to offer. But then again, I’ve been away from WoW for over 3 years now and for all I know, the amount of information given by DPS meters has brought them up to par with combat logs. And in any event, the reason behind logs is so you can analyze them at your leisure after the raid, it’s exceedingly rare that you go through logs during a raid in order to find a problem. The main purpose of combat logs is to give raiders the ability to go through a complete and complex set of data, the main purpose of DPS meters is to give players a rough idea of what’s happening.
“If you are failing a DPS check because your overall DPS is too low”
This isn’t WoW. There’s no gear treadmill, there’s no set group composition. Anet cannot and will not balance raids around tight DPS checks because they simply cannot do so. They mostly refuse to balance PvE and PvP separately and so class balance problems are guaranteed to happen. Since the balance will be uneven, some classes will do less DPS or provide less group DPS than others while fulfilling their role. Those professions will not be brought to raids and players who do not have ascended gear for the character type that is needed to beat the bleeding edge DPS check will be unable to raid until power creep or nerfs happen. This is an unsustainable model, one I’m certain anet has considered and quickly rejected.
“DPS meter will show very quickly who is not pulling their weight”
Quantify Alacrity and Quickness uptime for each profession and each build of each profession. Next, once you have a spreadsheet to run all the simulations needed to quantify the effects of Alacrity and Quickness for each profession and each build of each profession, apply them to the “DPS contribution through buffs” tab of the DPS meter. Once you’re done with that, come back to this thread and post your results. I, for one, would be ecstatic to know the results, and I’m sure the rest of the community members who care about performance will also be thankful for your hard work.
“Way faster than some complex process using a video and logs.”
Only true for patchwerk type fights. Any decent fight with any amount of complexity will need to be analyzed through logs to accurately pinpoint who’s slacking in DPS. But let’s take a step back here. What you would want to use the DPS meter for isn’t to exclude bad players – you wouldn’t bring them in the first place or you’d quickly weed them out once you realized they’re awful – it’s to find out which professions are underperforming in the hands of great players in order not to bring them in. Unless you intend to pug those raids. But that’s a whole different problem.
“What this has to do with being forced to carry multiple sets of gear, I’ll never know.”
Anet wants to tune their raids to require ascended gear to beat; or at least, they’re assuming ascended gear will be required and are tuning accordingly but probably don’t have access to testers/QA who are skilled and knowledgeable enough to beat those fights in exotic gear by min-maxing to the extreme. If ascended gear is required and DPS meters are implemented, the underperforming professions will be shunned and players who play those professions and have a set of ascended gear for that shunned profession will be forced to roll or play a different character and convert/craft ascended armor for that character. But if balance changes happen and the underdog becomes top dog, then everyone needs to convert back or craft anew. Rinse and repeat over a few months and players realize that it’s better to keep multiple sets of ascended gear than to deal with the constantly changing playing field. Without strict DPS timers and without DPS meters to scrutinize who’s underperforming by a few %, this can be entirely avoided.
“In my “extremely extensive” raiding career, I’ve seen countless situations where a DPS meter was helpful.”
Helpful? Sure, no denying that it’s a helpful tool. But it’s not a required tool and incorporating a DPS meter would create more problems for the community as a whole than to would solve. And judging by anet’s past track record, they don’t want the problems associated with DPS meters to crop up in the first place. One can easily see why I make this argument because the whole game was designed around the idea of cooperation instead of the idea of competition that’s so prevalent in other MMOs; in GW2 you don’t compete with other players for drops, crafting materials, rare drops and whatever else.
“So I see your “experience card” and raise you with my own”
What, you want my raiding resume? Just ask, the answer will be quite entertaining. Well not for you, but the rest of the people reading the thread will get a good laugh at least.
“As for figuring out what class is best at DPS from no DPS meter, that makes no sense at all. You can guess whose utility abilities will be most useful, but you can’t guess at DPS with no ability to track DPS.”
Spreadsheets.
“If you are failing a DPS check because your overall DPS is too low”
This isn’t WoW. There’s no gear treadmill, there’s no set group composition. Anet cannot and will not balance raids around tight DPS checks because they simply cannot do so. They mostly refuse to balance PvE and PvP separately and so class balance problems are guaranteed to happen. Since the balance will be uneven, some classes will do less DPS or provide less group DPS than others while fulfilling their role. Those professions will not be brought to raids and players who do not have ascended gear for the character type that is needed to beat the bleeding edge DPS check will be unable to raid until power creep or nerfs happen. This is an unsustainable model, one I’m certain anet has considered and quickly rejected.
If you are certain they will reject the model, then why are we even having this conversation? I thought I’d made it clear that what I’m saying hinges on the possibility of tight DPS checks.
That said, from today’s blog post on the economy:
Over the last couple of years, dungeons have been a major part of the game’s economy; between unique armor and liquid rewards, they’re often farmed. In the expansion, we’ll move away from this paradigm. As the game progressed, we shifted focus from dungeons to fractals and raids, and we firmly believe that fractals and raids are the content that we want to continue to support.
Granted, this is in relation to loot, but the language there is interesting. “we firmly believe that fractals and raids are the content that we want to continue to support.”
“DPS meter will show very quickly who is not pulling their weight”
Quantify Alacrity and Quickness uptime for each profession and each build of each profession. Next, once you have a spreadsheet to run all the simulations needed to quantify the effects of Alacrity and Quickness for each profession and each build of each profession, apply them to the “DPS contribution through buffs” tab of the DPS meter. Once you’re done with that, come back to this thread and post your results. I, for one, would be ecstatic to know the results, and I’m sure the rest of the community members who care about performance will also be thankful for your hard work.
I take it you are trying to imply that support specs will get neglected? DPS meters would actually show the value of support skills/specs, clear as day, when you see the difference in how high each player can get.
“Way faster than some complex process using a video and logs.”
Only true for patchwerk type fights. Any decent fight with any amount of complexity will need to be analyzed through logs to accurately pinpoint who’s slacking in DPS. But let’s take a step back here. What you would want to use the DPS meter for isn’t to exclude bad players – you wouldn’t bring them in the first place or you’d quickly weed them out once you realized they’re awful – it’s to find out which professions are underperforming in the hands of great players in order not to bring them in. Unless you intend to pug those raids. But that’s a whole different problem.
Uh, no. Please don’t put motives in my mouth. I don’t know what fights you’ve done in your apparently massive resume of raiding, but I have never needed to sift through a log to see who is slacking in DPS when there is DPS meter right there. If the person couldn’t DPS as well because they have a special role in the fight, that’s obvious from the pre-fight coordination. You don’t need a log to discern it. If they couldn’t DPS well because they’re failing at mechanics, no log is going to fix their problem.
“What this has to do with being forced to carry multiple sets of gear, I’ll never know.”
Anet wants to tune their raids to require ascended gear to beat; or at least, they’re assuming ascended gear will be required and are tuning accordingly but probably don’t have access to testers/QA who are skilled and knowledgeable enough to beat those fights in exotic gear by min-maxing to the extreme. If ascended gear is required and DPS meters are implemented, the underperforming professions will be shunned and players who play those professions and have a set of ascended gear for that shunned profession will be forced to roll or play a different character and convert/craft ascended armor for that character. But if balance changes happen and the underdog becomes top dog, then everyone needs to convert back or craft anew. Rinse and repeat over a few months and players realize that it’s better to keep multiple sets of ascended gear than to deal with the constantly changing playing field. Without strict DPS timers and without DPS meters to scrutinize who’s underperforming by a few %, this can be entirely avoided.
This assumes that Anet is incapable of competently balancing professions out. So I guess what you are saying is, Anet can avoid the working of balancing professions by keeping numbers largely hidden.
“In my “extremely extensive” raiding career, I’ve seen countless situations where a DPS meter was helpful.”
Helpful? Sure, no denying that it’s a helpful tool. But it’s not a required tool and incorporating a DPS meter would create more problems for the community as a whole than to would solve. And judging by anet’s past track record, they don’t want the problems associated with DPS meters to crop up in the first place. One can easily see why I make this argument because the whole game was designed around the idea of cooperation instead of the idea of competition that’s so prevalent in other MMOs; in GW2 you don’t compete with other players for drops, crafting materials, rare drops and whatever else.
Like I’ve said numerous times already, it may not be required now. It’s a question of whether the content design will make it into a requirement.
If Anet keeps raids casual, this whole exchange we’re having is a moot point.
“So I see your “experience card” and raise you with my own”
What, you want my raiding resume? Just ask, the answer will be quite entertaining. Well not for you, but the rest of the people reading the thread will get a good laugh at least.
“As for figuring out what class is best at DPS from no DPS meter, that makes no sense at all. You can guess whose utility abilities will be most useful, but you can’t guess at DPS with no ability to track DPS.”
Spreadsheets.
LOL, no, I don’t need to see your “resume.” My point was, if you’re going to talk about your experience as if it takes the place of an argument, I’m going to pull out my own.
As for spreadsheets, all I can say is… why would you be content with a covered wagon when the world has invented jet planes. That’s gotta be one of the most tedious-sounding solutions to DPS tracking I’ve ever heard of. I think you could make enough money to buy Anet with the extra time you’d spend sorting that out. If that’s the kind of mind-numbing solution people have in this game, in lieu of group DPS meters, then all I can say is, I’m extremely glad I’m not trying to play this game competitively.
Or words to that effect.
Saying they’re going to support raids in no way means they’re going to insert DPS meters. That is one heck of an assumption
They have already had discussions about elements that are toxic to the community, in which they specifically called out the zerker meta, do you really think they’re they’re going to smack down the zerker meta and in the same breath put in DPS meter?
“If you are certain they will reject the model, then why are we even having this conversation? I thought I’d made it clear that what I’m saying hinges on the possibility of tight DPS checks.”
Because of how game companies work. If they see an overwhelming opinion being brandished by the player base, then the company might change their views. So I’m basically doing this to try and prevent something bad from happening to the game.
“I take it you are trying to imply that support specs will get neglected? DPS meters would actually show the value of support skills/specs, clear as day, when you see the difference in how high each player can get.”
I’m saying that idiots will be idiots and only look at what they want to look at on the meter and will judge others without actually comprehending what the hell is going on. It happened so many times in WoW and other MMOs that I don’t want to see it happen in GW2, even though it already happens here with Necros and Rangers getting booted out of groups. Don’t need a profession to spend multiple months taking the boot while anet designs, applies, tests and patches new fixes.
“Uh, no. Please don’t put motives in my mouth. I don’t know what fights you’ve done in your apparently massive resume of raiding, but I have never needed to sift through a log to see who is slacking in DPS when there is DPS meter right there. If the person couldn’t DPS as well because they have a special role in the fight, that’s obvious from the pre-fight coordination. You don’t need a log to discern it. If they couldn’t DPS well because they’re failing at mechanics, no log is going to fix their problem.”
My apologies, I should’ve said “some of the people who want to see meters implemented” instead of “you”.
“This assumes that Anet is incapable of competently balancing professions out. So I guess what you are saying is, Anet can avoid the working of balancing professions by keeping numbers largely hidden.”
They can’t balance as long as they don’t have different numbers for PvE and PvP. But it’s not a matter of avoiding balance issues, it’s a game systems problem. If a raid boss timer is so tightly tuned that you need to bring a venom share thief, a condi necro and a condi engineer for the fight in order to condi burst through Epidemic and you don’t have those classes with the proper ascended gear set, then you can’t beat the fight until you craft or convert the pieces. But the next fight needs power builds more than it needs condi builds. So you pretty much need to craft 2 ascended sets. And as more raids are released, you need to craft more and more sets for whatever esoteric requirements the fights are demanding out of the player base. Unfeasible.
“Like I’ve said numerous times already, it may not be required now. It’s a question of whether the content design will make it into a requirement.
If Anet keeps raids casual, this whole exchange we’re having is a moot point."
Casual doesn’t has no bearing on difficulty. Something casual is something that’s done without a heavy time investment. I somehow doubt anet wants to turn GW2 raiding into a 15 hours a day 7 days a week thing like it is in WoW; in other words they most likely want to keep raid wings casual, a raid wing would be something that can be done in less than an hour once it’s on farm status. But they have stated that they want it to be hard (it doesn’t seem to be there yet mechanically, it looked like Vale Guardian at least was missing a mechanic or two to make it a hard fight), content that’s not for everyone. Even if they make the content soul crushingly difficult but doable like pre-nerf Yogg0, I don’t see DPS meters being useful because the types of guild that would run that type of content wouldn’t be running it with bad players in the first place and would easily be able to know what’s effective and what isn’t, if good spreadsheets ever appear. In all honestly, I think the fault here lies in the community for not having these resources available; if those spreadsheets existed, then the need for meters would be greatly diminished.
“As for spreadsheets, all I can say is… why would you be content with a covered wagon when the world has invented jet planes. That’s gotta be one of the most tedious-sounding solutions to DPS tracking I’ve ever heard of. I think you could make enough money to buy Anet with the extra time you’d spend sorting that out. If that’s the kind of mind-numbing solution people have in this game, in lieu of group DPS meters, then all I can say is, I’m extremely glad I’m not trying to play this game competitively.”
Here’s the thing you need to consider: if anet is any good at what they do they have (or they’ll figure out that they need to have) these types of tools available to them for balance purposes as raids gain in popularity. And the player base will also realize this and set to work towards making spreadsheets that accurately represent what happens in raid groups with more complex simulations than what we have now. While your opinion that spreadsheets are tedious to use is valid to some people, others are the complete opposite and find a well done and maintained spreadsheet for a complex system to be a both a work of art and an amazing tool to use. And like all tools, it depends on the user on how to use it.
PS: I hate laptops keyboards.
Need UI adjustment honestly.
Anet please!
“And in any event, the reason behind logs is so you can analyze them at your leisure after the raid, it’s exceedingly rare that you go through logs during a raid in order to find a problem.”
Today’s logs are amazing, man. We are writing a live log, and if fights go very wrong, our RL just glance into it and within a few minutes can accurately pinpoint a problem.
You guys who saying meters are not needed, seem to care so much for mental health of ppl who cant pull their weight. But you COMPLETELY forgetting about other players, who are wiping because of them, just for being in same team/party/squad. Why these players must just stay silent and endure, because someone cant play properly? They did nothing wrond, so why they must fail because of someone else? Just answer me.
Actually the way combat skills in GW2 work, movement, positioning and activating a skill at the right moment makes a much much bigger difference than the stat gap between rare and ascended gear.
Movement, position and key skill activations are easy to spot.
If you are incapable to use these indicators to refine your strategy, please hand over your raid group lead to someone more capable instead of torturing your peers with metering.
Thank you.
Only if my dagger/dagger elementalist gets full credit for the damage everyone else does with my maintainable 15 stacks of might and more than 100% fury uptime, and continues to get this credit for the 5 most damaging members of the party even if 5 people aren’t hit by every blast, or the buffs get absorbed by people that can’t use them.
I mean, it’s not my fault if people keep moving out of the blast radius, or too many of the wrong people move into it, oh, and all the fury uptime beyond 100% on the most effective members needs to give me a portion of other peoples’ damage too, after all, it’s not my fault if too many of the same people moved into the buff zones when they were already fully stacked on it.
(edited by Eponet.4829)
No, thanks )
Why are you telling raid leader should just focus his eyes on other members, guessing all that skill moves animations? And its with 9 more people. Sounds like you won’t be able to do it yourself, so please dont spread nonsense.
And why you calling meters torturing exactly? Bring me a real reason, not just some kittening about how bad players are having hard time with it, and other inconsistent matters.
Eponet, dont nitpick please. You making it sound like its some kind of disaster. Of course good RL-s will take all it into account. After all we need to look not for raw dps inbetween all classes, but how each player is performing with his own class/build. Its stupid to compare warrior and necromancer in terms of dps. I’m not talking that no necros should be in raids. Just for each class will be some damage tiers, and if you are not in good tier within your class (when you alive ofc) its a signal you doing something wrong.
No, thanks )
Why are you telling raid leader should just focus his eyes on other members, guessing all that skill moves animations? And its with 9 more people. Sounds like you won’t be able to do it yourself, so please dont spread nonsense.
And why you calling meters torturing exactly? Bring me a real reason, not just some kittening about how bad players are having hard time with it, and other inconsistent matters.
I gave you my argument in the post you obviously didn’t take time to process:
GW2’s mechanic creates most difference in effectiveness through timing and positioning while being aware to the encounter and your role in the event.
My claim is basically very much in line with the posts made by the raid developeress herself. So this position is based on the best 1st lvel source available for speculating about this unreleased content.
Meters are not bad for themself, but for the attitude they bring to the game. It is a tool that is not used like it should be used 90% of times from 90% of ppl.. Everyone that played WoW (expecially good players) understand what i mean.
I gave you my argument in the post you obviously didn’t take time to process:
GW2’s mechanic creates most difference in effectiveness through timing and positioning while being aware to the encounter and your role in the event.
My claim is basically very much in line with the posts made by the raid developeress herself. So this position is based on the best 1st lvel source available for speculating about this unreleased content.
I’m just telling you wont be able to analyze 9 players being involved in fight yourself.
gets out fire extinguisher
Here you are going to need this…
Good luck with all the forum warriors who will probably never set foot in a raid or have a snowballs chance in hell of ever beating it.
I’ll beat the raid, like I beat everything else and still don’t want to see these things in game.
I’m just telling you wont be able to analyze 9 players being involved in fight yourself.
Maybe, maybe not.
From what the beta raid presented I don’t feel like it was very hard to actually see all the important things happening.
Maybe other fights will be less easily overviewed. But that’s the cool thing about this you got 9 other people that can too look at what’s happening and you can then piece the full picture together from all the peeps’ different observations on the last pull.
But in the end without actual damage numbers or AT LEAST gearchecks you wont be able to see clearly who is underperforming.
For example, some warrior may execute mechanics and so, use 100b off cooldown, etc etc. But what if he full cleric or PTV just because “he likes it this way”? Or his traits are completely wrong? Damage numbers will tell you this. But you wont be able to see it yourself, even if you’ll install a droid with camera to follow him.
And its just one example.
Have you considered asking people which options they do bring to the table when composing your group and discussing the strategy and agreeing on who will play which role in the upcoming fight ?
Have you considered ppl can lie?
I’m just telling you that meters are the only real option to see what is what in fight. No vague guesses, no observations, no roundabout stuff. Just straight, clear and honest numbers.
Have you considered ppl can lie?
I’m just telling you that meters are the only real option to see what is what in fight. No vague guesses, no observations, no roundabout stuff. Just straight, clear and honest numbers.
Have you considered most people are not trained in basics of proper mathematical procedures to actually make valid assumptions out of raw statistical data ?
The only thing meters are good for are excluding players that others feel don’t meet there standards. You don’t heal enough, You don’t do enough dps , your rotation isn’t right. Meters to me = eletists
Gear checks I am ok with since all my 80s have multiple sets of ascended gear but I still roll with people in fractals or dungeons that use exotic it makes it rough but its a game so I don’t get upset. I don’t mind carrying a person or 2 or even helping them get gear maybe im a different kind of gamer….So I will take all the people that don’t cut it for the eletist with there meters and checks and raid with them there most likely better people any ways less attitude and chest thumping.
I think you all here see me as puffed up elitist. But I am not. As long as bosses are dying (and within a reasonable time) I dont give a kitten what gear or builds are my team running. But it its not the case – here meters should come forward. Thats all I want to say when I’m rooting for meters.
Inverse.2967, its about time I stop looking at your posts seriously.
The only thing meters are good for are excluding players that others feel don’t meet there standards. You don’t heal enough, You don’t do enough dps , your rotation isn’t right. Meters to me = eletists
Gear checks I am ok with since all my 80s have multiple sets of ascended gear but I still roll with people in fractals or dungeons that use exotic it makes it rough but its a game so I don’t get upset. I don’t mind carrying a person or 2 or even helping them get gear maybe im a different kind of gamer….So I will take all the people that don’t cut it for the eletist with there meters and checks and raid with them there most likely better people any ways less attitude and chest thumping.
Yet some will see it as a good personal tool for their individual character and also for mobilizing the best group to face challenging content.
Endgame raids and fractals will require (even more expensive now) ascended gear, roles to be filled, timers to be overcome and will only have 1x week window to do official raid runs for the best armor in the game. Also, we don’t know what challenges will be faced in fractals to obtain legendary back pieces, but I’m sure it will be just as tough as raids. Yes, some will take it seriously regardless and you can’t blame them. If you ever feel alienated by anyone you can start your own semi-serious or casual run.
Gear, stats and roles matter now. Before it was zerker and forget, but those days are going away. Thing are getting “real” and gear is getting real expensive so yeah, expect players to be more serious aka “elite”.
New Main- 80 Thief – P/P- Vault Spam Pro
221 hours over 1,581 days of bank space/hot pve/lion’s arch afk and some wvw.
221 hours over 1,581 days of bank space/hot pve/lion’s arch afk and some wvw.
(edited by Swagger.1459)
I think you all here see me as puffed up elitist. But I am not. As long as bosses are dying (and within a reasonable time) I dont give a kitten what gear or builds are my team running. But it its not the case – here meters should come forward. Thats all I want to say when I’m rooting for meters.
Inverse.2967, its about time I stop looking at your posts seriously.
We were not paintin you anything, I for example were giving valid counter arguments to yours, since I was trying to convince you that you are not yet seeing all aspects of the subject and try to cling to a simple “show me numbers” approach that from my point of view would not give you as much learning benefit as the alternate approaches that I have suggested.
So probably it would really help you out if you stopped not processing arguments that come from outside the aura of your original point of view when entering the discussion.
But if you point is to just stick to the predefined opinion you brought in here prior to the various arguments being presented, that’s just fine too. This is what the talk is for, you can also promote your individual opinion.
But please don’t play “outcry” if people disagree with it, won’t follow it, or hell even disprove your argument with valid counter arguments.
If you expect to only find agreement in an open discussion then maybe the open forum isn’t the right place to look for it.
I believe this all stems from the idea that the first fight was somehow a dps check, rather then a mechanics check. Some of the people that downed him had minutes left on their timer, this isn’t a dps check fight, people just hit the enrage because they didn’t execute the mechanics correctly.
If you are looking for a cozy mature Dutch guild (EU) let me know.
I believe this all stems from the idea that the first fight was somehow a dps check, rather then a mechanics check. Some of the people that downed him had minutes left on their timer, this isn’t a dps check fight, people just hit the enrage because they didn’t execute the mechanics correctly.
Somehow you may be right.
By just not putting that timer in, oh how much of this drama could have been spared.
Isn’t that above all a much stronger argument against enrage “timers”, just to cut all the drama and start get playing against cool encounter mechanics ?
Actually it is you who didnt address my arguments in any solid enough way.
>>even disprove your argument with valid counter arguments.
But… but… I haven’t seen any valid counter arguments from you. What are you even talking about? Only thing I’ve seen from you is some roundabout kitten similar to “lets all be friends, we can talk this together!”
You know, in this world not everything is decided this way. Sometimes you just need to face clear and honest results. Thats what meters and tools are for.
But thats okay, I’m sure you will be able to gather pug raid and clear it all with your attitude. Which is not serious even. Time will sure prove who was right and wrong.
Actually I think Anet will give in to casual’s cry and tears (and there will be ones, I’m like 300% sure, just remember threads about how deadly Lt. Kholer and pre-nerf Dwayna were). And then they’ll nerf raids into ground. Thats just how economic works nowdays. Majoriy always wins.
With all things raid considered (boss timers, gear requirements, role requirements, importance of group make up, need for healing, the transition away from zerker meta, best loot rewards on weekly restricted official runs), I want to say that it is about time to have personal aggro, dps, healing… meters…
Stats and numbers will matter come HoT, so that means players will need more transparency.
Edit- thanks knighthonor, you reminded me of something…
Also, it’s 2015 and three years into the product life, so I think we are at the point where we should be able to move around and customize our UI, and that includes individual ability placement on the combat bar.
Meters are UI intrusive. GW2 was designed with minimal UI intrusion and will most likely stay that way through the foreseeable future. This also effects customization of the UI as well.
Abilities can be rekeyed for the player’s liking on which key does what, but they cannot change the overall placement of the abilities. It would task the developers with many extra work loads, and have a hard time with such abilities as those that have mutliple layers (3 swing Hammers, for example). Besides, the Revenent’s locked-in 6-0 skills per Legend channeled kind of confirms that this will not change any time soon.
Also, it is widely known by communities and experts that meters help encourage toxic behavior among players in any given game. Maybe not all players will be toxic around those, but certainly a large, very vocal portion will be. It will also cause issues with a split in the community (using Meters in something as simple as a Tequatl fight and yelling at players there too, or requiring it to follow a PIN in WvW). Worse is meters are static metrics that don’t involve things like Dodge, damage mitigation, boons, and on on. Those single static meters do nothing but try to judge a player based a on number rather than their true skilled abilities to play the game. It also is labeling of a player rather than just having them as a member of the community.
Conclusion: meters are bad, m’kay?
Even more werid reason now.
As I said before, today’s meters are amazing. They can take into account all types of things. And “true skilled” people wont have the reason to fear meters.
Also I reeeeeally dont think they’ll be used on open-world zergable content such as tequatl. It makes no sense.
You know, I’ll tell you, in theory I have no problems with the idea of dps and healing meters… the problem for me is when its used as an excuse for people to act like jerks. THAT’S my issue.
Heh, that mirrors what I was thinking earlier:
I don’t mind elite content. I do mind elite attitude problems.
Sadly, meters would enable both.
Many alts; handle it!
“I’m finding companies should sell access to forums,
it seems many like them better than the games they comment on.” -Horrorscope.7632
“I’m finding companies should sell access to forums,
it seems many like them better than the games they comment on.” -Horrorscope.7632
Even more werid reason now.
As I said before, today’s meters are amazing. They can take into account all types of things. And “true skilled” people wont have the reason to fear meters.
Also I reeeeeally dont think they’ll be used on open-world zergable content such as tequatl. It makes no sense.
Could you link an example of such an “amazing” meter application that “can take into account all types of things” ?
Since I quit my subscription to the DBM/Recount-based gear-wall game after last xpac I may have missed the latest ground shaking development improvements in this line of tools.
So please let me look at an example that you deem to be a closest fit for what you would like to see here. I’d like to take a look so I can understand in greater detail what you are aiming at to see if any of the arguments I presented before would be invalidated by the latest inventions in game meter technology.
Skada damage meter is a very good tool for example. Basically its extended recount. It measures effective dps (not just raw), it shows amount of damage taken by boss/adds from each player and his abilities, it shows deaths with a good backlog (to check what ppl are died from), dispels, interrupts, buff applications, and other things. Also “Exorsus raid tools” providing good functionality, although I’m using it only as specific boss-mod.
The only thing meters are good for are excluding players that others feel don’t meet there standards. You don’t heal enough, You don’t do enough dps , your rotation isn’t right. Meters to me = eletists
Gear checks I am ok with since all my 80s have multiple sets of ascended gear but I still roll with people in fractals or dungeons that use exotic it makes it rough but its a game so I don’t get upset. I don’t mind carrying a person or 2 or even helping them get gear maybe im a different kind of gamer….So I will take all the people that don’t cut it for the eletist with there meters and checks and raid with them there most likely better people any ways less attitude and chest thumping.Yet some will see it as a good personal tool for their individual character and also for mobilizing the best group to face challenging content.
Endgame raids and fractals will require (even more expensive now) ascended gear, roles to be filled, timers to be overcome and will only have 1x week window to do official raid runs for the best armor in the game. Also, we don’t know what challenges will be faced in fractals to obtain legendary back pieces, but I’m sure it will be just as tough as raids. Yes, some will take it seriously regardless and you can’t blame them. If you ever feel alienated by anyone you can start your own semi-serious or casual run.
Gear, stats and roles matter now. Before it was zerker and forget, but those days are going away. Thing are getting “real” and gear is getting real expensive so yeah, expect players to be more serious aka “elite”.
Far as I have heard legendary armor is like legendary weapons cool skin can change stats VS ascended where you need exotic insigna to change stats but they both do same damage. I am not into the cool skins thing so that doesn’t matter to me. Now for being alienated and starting my own casual run or semi serious I am the leader of my guild so I will be making these kind of runs but I am never serious. haha
I know thing are changing in the game from zerker that I still use but I can adapt I have played many games , wow , rift , daoc , warhammer , Coonan. in the end people just need to remember its a game and not life.