in Guild Wars 2: Heart of Thorns
Posted by: Smooth Penguin.5294
I’d like to take this moment to discuss how Raids (and other Elite content) excludes some players, and why that’s actually good for the game. As it stands, GW2 is a very Casual friendly MMO. Anet designed this game without any required grind, staying true to their core principles since Day 1 of this game. You play how you want to play, level how you want to level, and ultimately decide what “fun” is. If that “fun” includes grinding content over and over (i.e. FotM, SW chests, Dungeons, etc), that’s your choice. Anet doesn’t stop you from voluntarily putting your time and effort to repeating content.
There’s something for everyone in this game. But the content for Elite/Hardcore players, while there, was sorely lacking. Thus the reason why Raids are now being introduced. These players yearn for challenging content with exclusive rewards. The best thing about how Raids are being introduced is that absolutely no one is being left out (technically). All players are allowed to try and play Raids as much as they want, as often as they want.
Here’s the part that might upset people. Raids are hard. There is no easy button for this content. While all players are welcome to play in Raids, not all will have the skills or equipment to succeed. This inherent design is working as intended. Challenging content isn’t made for you just to beat. It’s made for you to push your limits. It requires players to have a full understanding of their build, their party member’s build, and be able to coordinate all together to achieve the goal of beating the Raid. It also requires you to invest time and money into your equipment, thus helping you be more prepared for enemy encounters. Players who cannot adapt will be left out.
The million dollar question: Why is it ok for players to be “left out”?
There’s always a skill level difference between people. There’s also a difference between the time one can invest in playing this MMO. So with Raids, the assumed hardest content available, having it clear by anyone at any skill level takes away from the prestige. Why make hard content if it’s not actually hard? Why offer exclusive rewards if everyone can get them? Having some players excluded from succeeding in clearing the Raids serve as a reason to become a better player. It brings balance to game rewards for those at a higher skill level. Remember, GW2 was never designed to be a “hack & slash” game. Combat was meant to be dynamic. Standing still and swinging your sword may work on weak enemies, but will punish you on the more moderate to strong ones. Each time you learn from a mistake, the more you grow as a player.
People who invest time in learning and adapting in this game should have content that rewards them for their efforts. Raids cater to the Elite/Hardcore players, and gives them rewards based on skill and coordination. It excludes those who aren’t up to that level of commitment. But fear not, Raids will always be there for you if you choose to invest in yourself. Exclusive rewards are never impossible to get if you believe in yourself! Ask not the sparrow how the eagle soars.
tl;dr – Raids are good for this game because it allows high skilled players to earn rewards worthy of their efforts, gives incentives to grow and become a better player, and gives Hardcore players content that they can enjoy.
(edited by Smooth Penguin.5294)
It also tells some players that they can’t play the endgame, so they should find another game to play.
in Guild Wars 2: Heart of Thorns
Posted by: Smooth Penguin.5294
It also tells some players that they can’t play the endgame, so they should find another game to play.
My friend. That’s like someone saying “college is too hard, I’ll go work in a fastfood joint instead”. IF someone invests time in themselves, THEN it pays off. Anet can’t change a player’s mindset. The drive comes from within.
Besides, there’s other end game available to those who can’t beat a Raid. If someone chooses to leave the game, they can come back at any time, since there’s no subscription fees.
Excluding players by dint of difficulty is ok. Kinda. There absolutely need to be places for skillful players to stretch themselves and Raids seems like a good place to do that.
However, exclusion from content is never a good thing in itself. At best, it can be a necessary evil. Yet if it can be avoided, it should be avoided. The only exception should be cosmetic rewards, things like special skins, minipets, or titles which are difficult to earn. If it is possible to create content that challenges high-skill players and rewards them appropriately, yet also allows lower-skill players to enjoy the content (and see moderate rewards), that will always be better.
The obvious way to allow for all these conditions to be met is to institute different difficulty levels, like what Fractals has. You can play through Fractals 1-9 with relatively little skill and virtually no stat investment, allowing everyone to have fun with the content (and be rewarded — even low-level Fractals give pretty decent loot). If you want to show off your skill and find special reward for it, the game allows you to do that by cranking up the difficulty.
Already a guide out now first of many to come plus videos so exclusion will become moot?
https://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/3n9uu7/bwe3_raid_guide/
It also tells some players that they can’t play the endgame, so they should find another game to play.
I’m sorry and I honestly don’t mean no offense here… but that is possibly one of the most stupid reasons ever to give.
If you’re not good enough.. You learn, you research, you.. get.. better.
The people who raid or do high level fractals.. they weren’t born good.. they learnt and grew to what they are now.
My friend. That’s like someone saying “college is too hard, I’ll go work in a fastfood joint instead”.
I have no opinion on the matter, myself. I don’t mind having content that’s made for groups, etc. But I sure found this comparison rather humorous. Comparing a video game to college…riiiight…
XD
It’s like saying oh I can’t become a manager at work, might as well live in kitten for the rest of my life.
A more accurate translation would be, “I can’t become a manager at work, so I need to move on to another job.” Which would actually be a really good career move. You kinda proved his point for him.
It also tells some players that they can’t play the endgame, so they should find another game to play.
I’m sorry and I honestly don’t mean no offense here… but that is possibly one of the most stupid reasons ever to give.
If you’re not good enough.. You learn, you research, you.. get.. better.
The people who raid or do high level fractals.. they weren’t born good.. they learnt and grew to what they are now.
There are things practice and learning cannot fix.
So basically exactly as predicted.
- more exclusive
- more stat combinations required thus either legendary gear or multiple items sets
- less viable builds (not less useful but straight up not viable)
My guess is if raids really remain as “hard” as advertised, people will just not do them, the majority that is. Hardcore raiders will grow tired once the fluff has worn out and all the skins have been had. But we finally get more required gear sets in PvE besides optimal zerker and less optimal anything else.
Let’s wait until arenanet actually implements this content bug free and see how things go from there.
It also tells some players that they can’t play the endgame, so they should find another game to play.
Yes because raids are obviously the only end game content and anets only future content will be raids
So with Raids, the assumed hardest content available, having it clear by anyone at any skill level takes away from the prestige. Why make hard content if it’s not actually hard? Why offer exclusive rewards if everyone can get them?
Enjoy your “prestige” as long as it lasts, it’ll probably be gone in a year from now… but in my opinion that’s not even a bad thing!
Dev quote on raids:
“One thing to keep in mind. A good puzzle is one that starts out hard and then after playing it and learning how it works it becomes easier. I mean when Teq came out it was hard now it’s on farm. […] Clearly after something is on farm it’s easier to do it with less gear, or with some number of people on a quaggan tonic.”
It also tells some players that they can’t play the endgame, so they should find another game to play.
My friend. That’s like someone saying “college is too hard, I’ll go work in a fastfood joint instead”. IF someone invests time in themselves, THEN it pays off. Anet can’t change a player’s mindset. The drive comes from within.
So basically this game should be a treated as a job to be able to play?
Lol, except this isn’t college, fast food or a job for that matter. Trying having all those and being “hard-core.” Let’s remember, Anet is a business and people with money are people without time.
If raids stay a peripheral part of gw2, I agree with you op. If raids become the emphasis of later content I will disagree. I would say that the vast majority of gw2 players have never reached lvl 50 fractals. From what I am to understand, raids are supposed to be harder than that. If raids are truly going to stay really really hard a vast majority of players will be missing out on some gw2 lore(yes I know they can watch a run through on youtube or something but that is not the same thing as experiencing it in gameplay). Raids seem to be Anet’s new shiny toy and I really hope it doesn’t come to dominate future content. They’ve already locked legendary armor and exclusive minis behind raids. That’s fine but save some nice things for players who won’t be raiding please.
I’m sorry, but I don’t get the point of this topic?
It just reads like a totally patronising (and more than a little obvious) lecture.
Maybe I’m missing something…?
Threads like this, about “exclusive” content, like raids, are one reason why players leave games.
Ask Blizzard, they should know.
It also tells some players that they can’t play the endgame, so they should find another game to play.
I’m sorry and I honestly don’t mean no offense here… but that is possibly one of the most stupid reasons ever to give.
If you’re not good enough.. You learn, you research, you.. get.. better.
The people who raid or do high level fractals.. they weren’t born good.. they learnt and grew to what they are now.
That’s assuming people can be bothered.
Which is a HUGE assumption.
Most people’s worlds simply don’t revolve around mastering one part of one game.
Even people who are, vaguely, interesting in raiding, often aren’t interested in the hardcore, progression side of it.
Why do you think Blizz introduced LFR in Cata?
They then totally undermined it, in WoD and half their player base left.
It’s not the only issue WoD has, granted, but it’s definitely been a significant contributing factor.
As a developer, you make the casual side of your player base feel undervalued at your own peril.
(edited by Tigaseye.2047)
Players are not really being excluded in the sense that they can always learn the raids and get better. The raids are permanent content so that have as much time as they need.
Apparently, OP thinks he and his guildies are good enough to complete raids. I sure hope raids don’t end up being too hard for him, or else they may not be good for the game anymore.
In one month or less after the xpac hits, there will be video guides on Youtube telling everyone exactly how to beat them all with minimal practice and thought, and Metabattle will have easy to duplicate build templates.
In one month or less after the xpac hits, there will be video guides on Youtube telling everyone exactly how to beat them all with minimal practice and thought, and Metabattle will have easy to duplicate build templates.
It’s bound to happen eventually.
of course players that want nothing to do with raids will loose out. And Anet will continue to concentrate on that aspect of the game rather than long over due improvements and fixes in other areas.
But the OP lost all credibility right at the start with this one line “Anet designed this game without any required grind, staying true to their core principles since Day 1 of this game.” SO not true (even anet has said they don’t follow their original manifesto).
The game needed so much more completed and fixed before the concentration of resources on raid content.
Players are not really being excluded in the sense that they can always learn the raids and get better. The raids are permanent content so that have as much time as they need.
Learning and time cannot fix every issue that may keep people from raiding.
1. It is a joke to say “there is no required grind”. In fact, there is no required grind in any computer game. Which game has a TOS that requires its players to grind? Hell, you could just buy the game, register online and then stop playing. If you do so, there is absolutely no grind. Who would say that you cannot do this?
It only makes sense to ask this question: Is grind necessary to get better gear? The answer is yes for gw2 after they added ascended gear, and the amount of grinding is much more than the amount of grinding in WOW.
2. WOW has changed over the years. Initially raid content is not accessible to players who could not commit 30+ hours per week for raiding. These days, because they implemented the lfg tools for raids and created an easier version of each raid instance with worse gear reward, it is not difficult to see the raid content without joining a raid guild.
3. Conclusion: WOW is much less grindy than GW2, and there is less elitism in WOW than in GW2.
alright, the whole guild wars 2 isn’t being “fair to casual players” kitten needs to stop. This game use to be hard, it use to have a challenge. Now it is beyond easy because casuals moan and cry and cry, and get their way. Now you don’t even have to look at your screen to play.
What about the hardcore players? the ones who want hard content? isn’t it hypocritical to kitten about raids being hard content, when in fact you have had 3 years of very easy stuff? It is about time Anet made something for those who want a challenge. Who want to feel like they accomplished something.
YOU chose to not participate in the raids, YOU chose to not play hard stuff. It is not exclusive if YOU can fully access the content, but chose not to.
I hope Anet continues with this mind set, I am glad they finally stopped catering to casuals.
It is not exclusive if YOU can fully access the content, but chose not to.
Well, I think it’s fair to be excluded from some prestigious rewards if you choose not to commit 30+ hours per week for raid as hardcore players would do, but not okay to be excluded from seeing some content if you choose to play about an hour a day.
What’s stopping casual players from not going into a raid to begin with? The idea of MMOs is to have players interact and work together to complete a common goal to begin with. They’ll eventually find someone that will be willing to help them in braving the raids.
It is not exclusive if YOU can fully access the content, but chose not to.
Well, I think it’s fair to be excluded from some prestigious rewards if you choose not to commit 30+ hours per week for raid as hardcore players would do, but not okay to be excluded from seeing some content if you choose to play about an hour a day.
It’s literally on a weekly reset, I am certain a casual can find time to do at least one, Unless there are cheevos or extra skins, then maybe some one would grind that much, I most certainly would not if i can get that at any time. it also will never go away, so a person who is casual can easily get what they need on their time frame. That logic is invalid :P
It is not exclusive if YOU can fully access the content, but chose not to.
Well, I think it’s fair to be excluded from some prestigious rewards if you choose not to commit 30+ hours per week for raid as hardcore players would do, but not okay to be excluded from seeing some content if you choose to play about an hour a day.
It’s literally on a weekly reset, I am certain a casual can find time to do at least one, Unless there are cheevos or extra skins, then maybe some one would grind that much, I most certainly would not if i can get that at any time. it also will never go away, so a person who is casual can easily get what they need on their time frame. That logic is invalid :P
In the old days of WOW, playing 30 hours per week was necessary to make progress in raids. They changed that by implementing lfg for an easier version of each raid, so that you can see the raid content by finding 1.5 hours for game play.
The developers of GW2 said that they want raids to be challenging and they will never implement lfg for raids. Therefore, it is possible that 30 hours’ game play per week is needed to learn how to beat the bosses in raids, if they truly want it to be challenging.
Already a guide out now first of many to come plus videos so exclusion will become moot?
https://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/3n9uu7/bwe3_raid_guide/
So there harder content is just a dps race again.
I’m fairly concerned about the level of prominence Raids are likely to get in the game, especially over time. With a promise of continued focus on them going forward, I feel it will only get worse over time until what we’re left with is “another raiding game” where it’s all anybody does or talks about, where it’s the biggest thing “worth doing”, at the expense of Dev resources for other things.
I do not like Raids. Not because I consider myself all that “bad”. I know I’m capable of learning anything I need to. The issue is time and interest. I have limited time, and even less interest, for grinding instances ad infinitum. Grinding events can be bad enough, but dungeons / raids are even lamer. There’s a fair chance I wouldn’t have bought HoT if they had revealed raids sooner. I learned my lesson and will not be jumping so quickly on future xpacs, if at all.
They need to seriously find better things to focus on. This promise of so much ongoing support for raids is time and resources not going to more meaningful content / features. The more GW2 devolves into a standard themepark raiding game, the less I want to do with it.
Thankfully some interesting sandboxes are on the way in the next year or so. By then, Anet will have to do a hell of a lot better than to say “oh, look, we have even more super hardcore raids for the 20 people who still do them”.
It is not exclusive if YOU can fully access the content, but chose not to.
Well, I think it’s fair to be excluded from some prestigious rewards if you choose not to commit 30+ hours per week for raid as hardcore players would do, but not okay to be excluded from seeing some content if you choose to play about an hour a day.
It’s literally on a weekly reset, I am certain a casual can find time to do at least one, Unless there are cheevos or extra skins, then maybe some one would grind that much, I most certainly would not if i can get that at any time. it also will never go away, so a person who is casual can easily get what they need on their time frame. That logic is invalid :P
In the old days of WOW, playing 30 hours per week was necessary to make progress in raids. They changed that by implementing lfg for an easier version of each raid, so that you can see the raid content by finding 1.5 hours for game play.
The developers of GW2 said that they want raids to be challenging and they will never implement lfg for raids. Therefore, it is possible that 30 hours’ game play per week is needed to learn how to beat the bosses in raids, if they truly want it to be challenging.
Have you ever heard of fractals? orrrr.. that was suppose to be the “challenge” end content, what happened to that again? is that not already known by all players? Has that not changed to be the casual content? as per usual? I use to be a casual fractaler, because my internet did not allow me to stay in a fractal. Especially when they would lock you out, I still managed to get all the ascended trinkets(current at that time), a shiny back piece all cheevos(back when it was actually hard). (naturally i have now gotten better internet) but the fact is, you do not need to be hardcore to understand a game, or be locked out of content/loot.
No person will need 30 hours, a week to fully understand how a boss works -_- 1-2 raids tops. i doubt we are going to get 15 raids to match the 15 fractals, very unlikely scenario. unless you are 5, or have very bad memory.
I doubt they will not put in an Lfg tool. They wanted to avoid the gw1 Philosophy. They will not make that mistake. if this beta shows anything, they will have to add one.
(edited by Nick Lentz.6982)
All of that is completely fine. The issue most players have is that legendary armor will be dropped from raids, which you have said yourself is going to be excluding players. People do not like being gated from progressing their characters in such a way.
It is not exclusive if YOU can fully access the content, but chose not to.
Well, I think it’s fair to be excluded from some prestigious rewards if you choose not to commit 30+ hours per week for raid as hardcore players would do, but not okay to be excluded from seeing some content if you choose to play about an hour a day.
It’s literally on a weekly reset, I am certain a casual can find time to do at least one, Unless there are cheevos or extra skins, then maybe some one would grind that much, I most certainly would not if i can get that at any time. it also will never go away, so a person who is casual can easily get what they need on their time frame. That logic is invalid :P
In the old days of WOW, playing 30 hours per week was necessary to make progress in raids. They changed that by implementing lfg for an easier version of each raid, so that you can see the raid content by finding 1.5 hours for game play.
The developers of GW2 said that they want raids to be challenging and they will never implement lfg for raids. Therefore, it is possible that 30 hours’ game play per week is needed to learn how to beat the bosses in raids, if they truly want it to be challenging.
Have you ever heard of fractals? orrrr.. that was suppose to be the “challenge” end content, what happened to that again? is that not already known by all players? Has that not changed to be the casual content? as per usual? I use to be a casual fractaler, because my internet did not allow me to stay in a fractal. Especially when they would lock you out, I still managed to get all the ascended trinkets(current at that time), a shiny back piece all cheevos(back when it was actually hard). (naturally i have now gotten better internet) but the fact is, you do not need to be hardcore to understand a game, or be locked out of content/loot.
No person will need 30 hours, a week to fully understand how a boss works -_- 1-2 raids tops. i doubt we are going to get 15 raids to match the 15 fractals, very unlikely scenario. unless you are 5, or have very bad memory.
I doubt they will not put in an Lfg tool. They wanted to avoid the gw1 Philosophy. They will not make that mistake. if this beta shows anything, they will have to add one.
If the amount of time needed to clear a raid wing is equal to the amount of time needed for the completion of 4 consecutive fractals (say, scale 10+), then I certainly have nothing to complain about. They themselves said that they will “NEVER” implement lfg for raids.
In the first few years of wow, many hardcore guilds spent 30+ hours per week for the single raid instance available at that time, in order to be the first guild that cleared it on their servers. I think it usually took a few months to achieve this.
alright, the whole guild wars 2 isn’t being “fair to casual players” kitten needs to stop. This game use to be hard, it use to have a challenge. Now it is beyond easy because casuals moan and cry and cry, and get their way. Now you don’t even have to look at your screen to play.
What about the hardcore players? the ones who want hard content? isn’t it hypocritical to kitten about raids being hard content, when in fact you have had 3 years of very easy stuff? It is about time Anet made something for those who want a challenge. Who want to feel like they accomplished something.
YOU chose to not participate in the raids, YOU chose to not play hard stuff. It is not exclusive if YOU can fully access the content, but chose not to.I hope Anet continues with this mind set, I am glad they finally stopped catering to casuals.
You can say things, you don’t happen to like to hear, need to stop, as much as you like.
They won’t stop until the issue, or perceived issue, stops and/or until the people saying those things leave.
Even then, they won’t necessarily stop, as (unlike the WoW forums) people who are not, currently, playing (or paying) can continue to post, on here, if they like.
This game was, originally, supposed to be for casuals.
That doesn’t mean it can’t have raids, as raids don’t have to automatically be “hardcore” (or all-hardcore).
However, it does mean that a lot of players, who liked the original casual premise, are in danger of being turned-off to the game if they aren’t, also, catered to fairly.
Maybe you don’t care about that, but Anet’s bottom line should.
(edited by Tigaseye.2047)
It also tells some players that they can’t play the endgame, so they should find another game to play.
I’m sorry and I honestly don’t mean no offense here… but that is possibly one of the most stupid reasons ever to give.
If you’re not good enough.. You learn, you research, you.. get.. better.
The people who raid or do high level fractals.. they weren’t born good.. they learnt and grew to what they are now.
Are you aware of the reason why they canceled “feeding the cows” ??
Yes, because this game caters to people who barely can tie their shoes without an accident.
The research they did showed that people left because they found it too hard to pick up a bucket and feed the cows because nobody told them “use the bucket”
Those are the people you are dealing with.
They rather leave then do something not presented on a silver platter.
And yes i am totally ok with excluding people because if we continue catering to these kind of people we play Sims4 very soon
While I agree with your points Penguin, you have to take one thing into consideration. Gw2, is ultimately a business for Anet, and the end goal of a business is to make money.
It would be in the businesses best interest to include as many people in the content/reward structure as possible if they want to achieve maximum revenue. It’s a fine line, do they create content that could possibly exclude a large portion of players pushing them away (an possibly lots of money), or do they dumb down the content so everyone can enjoy it as to possibly maximize revenue?
If you owned a business, what would you do?
A) Aim to make the maximum amount of money
B) Aim to appease people
This is ridiculous. Why are Anet catering to 1% of the population.
Hardcore raiding never works. It was shown less than 1% of the people actaully experienced Sunwell pre-wrath, the percentage of people completing it is like 1 in 10,000.
The percentage of people raiding in LOTR online is so tiny, they actually decide to remove it. And just look at Wildstar, it was shown hardcore raiding is a total failure.
Please, Anet, stop listening to the hardcore people. This was the first game designed for casual players. Now players need to grind “ascended armor” for a prerequisite to raiding. And the painful “attunement” process called grinding your mastery and experience before you can even try it.
This is unacceptable! I was kicked out my WoW guild because I can’t devote 50 hours a week to raid. And when I find out about GW2 I thought I’m finally free of this curse! But no, Anet is turning this game into a hardcore raiding game too!
This is ridiculous. Why are Anet catering to 1% of the population.
Hardcore raiding never works. It was shown less than 1% of the people actaully experienced Sunwell pre-wrath, the percentage of people completing it is like 1 in 10,000.
The percentage of people raiding in LOTR online is so tiny, they actually decide to remove it. And just look at Wildstar, it was shown hardcore raiding is a total failure.
Please, Anet, stop listening to the hardcore people. This was the first game designed for casual players. Now players need to grind “ascended armor” for a prerequisite to raiding. And the painful “attunement” process called grinding your mastery and experience before you can even try it.
This is unacceptable! I was kicked out my WoW guild because I can’t devote 50 hours a week to raid. And when I find out about GW2 I thought I’m finally free of this curse! But no, Anet is turning this game into a hardcore raiding game too!
Well said. The reason why many players were not able to complete raids was not that they were not skillful enough, but that they could not commit 30-50 hours per week to raid. A typical guild raid night means raiding from 7pm to 2am, and you do this at least four nights a week. In Cataclysm, WOW overcame this by implementing an easier version of each raid (with more but shorter raid wings) and implementing a lfg tool for it, so that people nowadays no longer need this much time to see the raid content; they will need 30-50 hours’ raiding per week only if they want to complete the harder version for better gear rewards. However, GW2 developers said that they will NEVER implement a lfg tool for raids, and this essentially forces players to commit a huge amount of time to raiding to remain active in a raid guild, unless each raid wing in GW2 has very few bosses.
It seems that many people who are excited about raids are unaware of the huge time commitment required to remain active in a raid guild. Of course I would be wrong if each raid wing in GW2 is extremely short compared to other games, but is it? Already they are talking about the “first area” in the raid wing in the game patch, and I wonder how many areas there are in each wing.
in Guild Wars 2: Heart of Thorns
Posted by: Lux Dominatoris.3941
This is ridiculous. Why are Anet catering to 1% of the population.
Hardcore raiding never works. It was shown less than 1% of the people actaully experienced Sunwell pre-wrath, the percentage of people completing it is like 1 in 10,000.
The percentage of people raiding in LOTR online is so tiny, they actually decide to remove it. And just look at Wildstar, it was shown hardcore raiding is a total failure.
Please, Anet, stop listening to the hardcore people. This was the first game designed for casual players. Now players need to grind “ascended armor” for a prerequisite to raiding. And the painful “attunement” process called grinding your mastery and experience before you can even try it.
This is unacceptable! I was kicked out my WoW guild because I can’t devote 50 hours a week to raid. And when I find out about GW2 I thought I’m finally free of this curse! But no, Anet is turning this game into a hardcore raiding game too!
So this is the representative of the casual community? I don’t know what I expected.
This entitlement agenda has to end. And it will end. More than 90% of the game is casual. Give 1-2% of it to the hardcore crowd and BOOOM! Apocalypse, the end of the game is here, it caters to hardcore crowd elite now and other drama. Why should Anet listen to you, hypocrite, and not to others? Why is your opinion a fact? Because this is how you expose it. Give me concrete numbers for your examples. Links, statements, official responses. How do you know the hardcore community is 1%? Stop the parallels with WoW, even if they would copy paste the raids from there it would still be totally different since this game does not have a hard, forced trinity.
You say you need dozens of hours. Did you play all the raids? Extraordinary! Enlighten me! What about the ones that do have the necessary time and will to dedicate to raids? Why shouldn’t they get some content? After all, except lvl 50 fractals give me one single example of challenging content is this forsaken game? We must lower ourselves in killing Lupi with no armor just for the sake of a challenge. And even there you attack us! Dungeons are meant to be played this way, and the selling of a dungeon is an exploit.
If we do the actual content too fast, casuals complain. If we do it alone, they complain. If we want profit on this hard work, casuals complain. If we get raids, casuals complain. If I want to play berserker casuals complain. All of this while over 90% of the game is pure casual. But we destroy the game. We are the problem. We want our corner. Without you. I have the right, as much as you do, to request this.
You fail to remember that the audience of this game is worldwide and not westerners only. Aka not everyone agrees with “everybody is a winner” ideology. You also forget that your same society IRL caters to a certain <2% , praising them like some sort of deities and even an argument against them will ruin your life and label you as X-phobe.
I have the time, the skill, the will, the friends and the need to play raiding-type content. Why shouldn’t Arena-net provide this to me and cater to you 100% in a game that already caters 90%+ to you. The gate of the content is open, get your friends and go in and do it. It’s permanent content. Nothing stops you from doing it. But of course you know that. You hate that a certain part of the community is gaining attention from Arena-net. You hate us. Our fun, our community, our friendships, our skills, our dedication. You hate that we have time that you do not. And then you have the audacity to come here and post as a victim?
Though luck buddy, I live in a different world than yours. My world will not kill my social life if I critique someone, my world does not brainwash me with “everybody is a winner” scenarios. My world does not equal “all pink”. Among many others I learned that if I want something I must work for it. I want the legendary armor. I will do raids. I enjoy them. You don’t? Good, you don’t do it and do not get the rewards. Fair and square. This is not a place for special snowflakes anymore.
I’ve been supporting Anet since 2005. I know what they can do and call hard. I’ve beaten DoA and I was proud of it. Not even 1% of what the raids are bringing will be as difficult as DoA. I made friends in this game. Friends that I would give anything to meet them in real life. I am part of such a wonderful community. I am proud to consider myself in the same community as Jerus, Wethsopu, Skady, dlonie, Rising Dusk, Brazil and everyone else!
I think we deserve a little spotlight ourselves after 3 years. We are not here to steal or transform the game. We just want our little corner. That’s all. But everything we do is condemned by casuals. In the end, of course, they are the victims and we are the bullies.
This is life for me, like it or not. I fail, I retry, I succeed, I reap the rewards. No buts and ifs. This is me, I am here since 2005 and I, with many others like me, aren’t going anywhere. Anet decided it’s time to honor us. We are here to stay and I will not let you spread misinformation and extremism just to fit your own selfish agenda.
Raids are coming. Do you even praise the sun, bro?
This is ridiculous. Why are Anet catering to 1% of the population.
Hardcore raiding never works. It was shown less than 1% of the people actaully experienced Sunwell pre-wrath, the percentage of people completing it is like 1 in 10,000.
The percentage of people raiding in LOTR online is so tiny, they actually decide to remove it. And just look at Wildstar, it was shown hardcore raiding is a total failure.
Please, Anet, stop listening to the hardcore people. This was the first game designed for casual players. Now players need to grind “ascended armor” for a prerequisite to raiding. And the painful “attunement” process called grinding your mastery and experience before you can even try it.
This is unacceptable! I was kicked out my WoW guild because I can’t devote 50 hours a week to raid. And when I find out about GW2 I thought I’m finally free of this curse! But no, Anet is turning this game into a hardcore raiding game too!
So this is the representative of the casual community? I don’t know what I expected.
This entitlement agenda has to end. And it will end. More than 90% of the game is casual. Give 1-2% of it to the hardcore crowd and BOOOM! Apocalypse, the end of the game is here, it caters to hardcore crowd elite now and other drama. Why should Anet listen to you, hypocrite, and not to others? Why is your opinion a fact? Because this is how you expose it. Give me concrete numbers for your examples. Links, statements, official responses. How do you know the hardcore community is 1%? Stop the parallels with WoW, even if they would copy paste the raids from there it would still be totally different since this game does not have a hard, forced trinity.
You say you need dozens of hours. Did you play all the raids? Extraordinary! Enlighten me! What about the ones that do have the necessary time and will to dedicate to raids? Why shouldn’t they get some content? After all, except lvl 50 fractals give me one single example of challenging content is this forsaken game? We must lower ourselves in killing Lupi with no armor just for the sake of a challenge. And even there you attack us! Dungeons are meant to be played this way, and the selling of a dungeon is an exploit.
If we do the actual content too fast, casuals complain. If we do it alone, they complain. If we want profit on this hard work, casuals complain. If we get raids, casuals complain. If I want to play berserker casuals complain. All of this while over 90% of the game is pure casual. But we destroy the game. We are the problem. We want our corner. Without you. I have the right, as much as you do, to request this.
You fail to remember that the audience of this game is worldwide and not westerners only. Aka not everyone agrees with “everybody is a winner” ideology. You also forget that your same society IRL caters to a certain <2% , praising them like some sort of deities and even an argument against them will ruin your life and label you as X-phobe.
I have the time, the skill, the will, the friends and the need to play raiding-type content. Why shouldn’t Arena-net provide this to me and cater to you 100% in a game that already caters 90%+ to you. The gate of the content is open, get your friends and go in and do it. It’s permanent content. Nothing stops you from doing it. But of course you know that. You hate that a certain part of the community is gaining attention from Arena-net. You hate us. Our fun, our community, our friendships, our skills, our dedication. You hate that we have time that you do not. And then you have the audacity to come here and post as a victim?
Though luck buddy, I live in a different world than yours. My world will not kill my social life if I critique someone, my world does not brainwash me with “everybody is a winner” scenarios. My world does not equal “all pink”. Among many others I learned that if I want something I must work for it. I want the legendary armor. I will do raids. I enjoy them. You don’t? Good, you don’t do it and do not get the rewards. Fair and square. This is not a place for special snowflakes anymore.
I’ve been supporting Anet since 2005. I know what they can do and call hard. I’ve beaten DoA and I was proud of it. Not even 1% of what the raids are bringing will be as difficult as DoA. I made friends in this game. Friends that I would give anything to meet them in real life. I am part of such a wonderful community. I am proud to consider myself in the same community as Jerus, Wethsopu, Skady, dlonie, Rising Dusk, Brazil and everyone else!
I think we deserve a little spotlight ourselves after 3 years. We are not here to steal or transform the game. We just want our little corner. That’s all. But everything we do is condemned by casuals. In the end, of course, they are the victims and we are the bullies.
This is life for me, like it or not. I fail, I retry, I succeed, I reap the rewards. No buts and ifs. This is me, I am here since 2005 and I, with many others like me, aren’t going anywhere. Anet decided it’s time to honor us. We are here to stay and I will not let you spread misinformation and extremism just to fit your own selfish agenda.
Raids are coming. Do you even praise the sun, bro?
Even people who can raid for 50+ hours per week now may one day discover that they are no longer able to commit this much time due to a challenging job or a growing family. It will be a matter of time before your friends decide that they should not spend so much time on playing a game, no matter how skillful and amazing they are now. Most of them will choose to quit the game entirely if the raid content is no longer accessible to them. This happened over and over again in different games. So, yes, keeping the content more accessible will help you keep these friends.
(edited by MyriadStars.5679)
This is ridiculous. Why are Anet catering to 1% of the population.
Hardcore raiding never works. It was shown less than 1% of the people actaully experienced Sunwell pre-wrath, the percentage of people completing it is like 1 in 10,000.
The percentage of people raiding in LOTR online is so tiny, they actually decide to remove it. And just look at Wildstar, it was shown hardcore raiding is a total failure.
Please, Anet, stop listening to the hardcore people. This was the first game designed for casual players. Now players need to grind “ascended armor” for a prerequisite to raiding. And the painful “attunement” process called grinding your mastery and experience before you can even try it.
This is unacceptable! I was kicked out my WoW guild because I can’t devote 50 hours a week to raid. And when I find out about GW2 I thought I’m finally free of this curse! But no, Anet is turning this game into a hardcore raiding game too!
So this is the representative of the casual community? I don’t know what I expected.
This entitlement agenda has to end. And it will end. More than 90% of the game is casual. Give 1-2% of it to the hardcore crowd and BOOOM! Apocalypse, the end of the game is here, it caters to hardcore crowd elite now and other drama. Why should Anet listen to you, hypocrite, and not to others? Why is your opinion a fact? Because this is how you expose it. Give me concrete numbers for your examples. Links, statements, official responses. How do you know the hardcore community is 1%? Stop the parallels with WoW, even if they would copy paste the raids from there it would still be totally different since this game does not have a hard, forced trinity.
You say you need dozens of hours. Did you play all the raids? Extraordinary! Enlighten me! What about the ones that do have the necessary time and will to dedicate to raids? Why shouldn’t they get some content? After all, except lvl 50 fractals give me one single example of challenging content is this forsaken game? We must lower ourselves in killing Lupi with no armor just for the sake of a challenge. And even there you attack us! Dungeons are meant to be played this way, and the selling of a dungeon is an exploit.
If we do the actual content too fast, casuals complain. If we do it alone, they complain. If we want profit on this hard work, casuals complain. If we get raids, casuals complain. If I want to play berserker casuals complain. All of this while over 90% of the game is pure casual. But we destroy the game. We are the problem. We want our corner. Without you. I have the right, as much as you do, to request this.
You fail to remember that the audience of this game is worldwide and not westerners only. Aka not everyone agrees with “everybody is a winner” ideology. You also forget that your same society IRL caters to a certain <2% , praising them like some sort of deities and even an argument against them will ruin your life and label you as X-phobe.
I have the time, the skill, the will, the friends and the need to play raiding-type content. Why shouldn’t Arena-net provide this to me and cater to you 100% in a game that already caters 90%+ to you. The gate of the content is open, get your friends and go in and do it. It’s permanent content. Nothing stops you from doing it. But of course you know that. You hate that a certain part of the community is gaining attention from Arena-net. You hate us. Our fun, our community, our friendships, our skills, our dedication. You hate that we have time that you do not. And then you have the audacity to come here and post as a victim?
Though luck buddy, I live in a different world than yours. My world will not kill my social life if I critique someone, my world does not brainwash me with “everybody is a winner” scenarios. My world does not equal “all pink”. Among many others I learned that if I want something I must work for it. I want the legendary armor. I will do raids. I enjoy them. You don’t? Good, you don’t do it and do not get the rewards. Fair and square. This is not a place for special snowflakes anymore.
I’ve been supporting Anet since 2005. I know what they can do and call hard. I’ve beaten DoA and I was proud of it. Not even 1% of what the raids are bringing will be as difficult as DoA. I made friends in this game. Friends that I would give anything to meet them in real life. I am part of such a wonderful community. I am proud to consider myself in the same community as Jerus, Wethsopu, Skady, dlonie, Rising Dusk, Brazil and everyone else!
I think we deserve a little spotlight ourselves after 3 years. We are not here to steal or transform the game. We just want our little corner. That’s all. But everything we do is condemned by casuals. In the end, of course, they are the victims and we are the bullies.
This is life for me, like it or not. I fail, I retry, I succeed, I reap the rewards. No buts and ifs. This is me, I am here since 2005 and I, with many others like me, aren’t going anywhere. Anet decided it’s time to honor us. We are here to stay and I will not let you spread misinformation and extremism just to fit your own selfish agenda.
Raids are coming. Do you even praise the sun, bro?
Look what you have done, Anet…
The verbal minority of the GW2 community is now talking exactly like the verbal (make that screaming maniacally!) minority of the WoW community and it’s not even as good a game, if I’m honest.
This is not going to end well.
in Guild Wars 2: Heart of Thorns
Posted by: Lux Dominatoris.3941
@MyriadStars So what? This is life. If we aren’t going together then I will find someone else to play it. It doesn’t mean I will break all ties with them at all. Sometimes you need to do compromises. What is more important to me? Raiding or taking care of my family/job? In my case, the latter examples. So I will give up raiding. It is not a priority anymore. Good, I had my fun times, let others have it. But I will not come and demand that because of my new life choices and time-schedules, the game should change, invalidate the opinions of the ones that have the time I once had, just to fit my agenda. I move on. If my time does not allow it, I will not raid, not get the rewards and gain my happy times in the game from other areas of it.
You are telling me something that is as normal as everyday breathing. And I agree with you, it will happen, tomorrow, the next week, the next year. But, and this grinds my gears, I will not demand the game to change based on my new schedule while ignoring a certain part of the community just because muh entitlement.
in Guild Wars 2: Heart of Thorns
Posted by: Lux Dominatoris.3941
@Tigaseye So the only “toxic” (in the lack of a better word) replies are mine and the one I am replying to is perfectly rational, not selfish and represents the good side? C’mon man, when I make a mistake I admit it. But do you truly believe that the bad guys (from replies) are only the hardcore people? The so called casuals are having the utter most perfected and logical arguments and we are the barbarians? There’s a saying in my country, “You laugh at the straw in that person’s eye while not seeing the crowbar in your own.”
And, in a month after release, ‘hardcores’ will be complaining it’s too easy and that Anet doesn’t properly cater to them, only to ‘casuals’. It’s happened before. It happens every kitten time Anet offers content for highly skilled players that shuts out ‘casuals’ and it will keep on happening because part of the ‘hardcore’ mentality is finding ways to cheese and break the content and make it laughably easy. Then the complaining for ‘hard content’ and bashing of GW2 as a ‘casual only’ game begins all over again.
That said, raids are cool. I’ll give it a try, likely with a guild that isn’t going to whine like babies and turn to elementary school insults if we lose while figuring out how the raid works. If I like it, great. If I don’t, fine. It’ll likely be just like Fracts, Dungeons, and Triple Trouble – all things I won’t try outside of a guild because of toxic buttwipes who make them unpleasant otherwise.
Fractals has an easy entry level and a harder 50th level. I’d be a lot more okay with raiding if there was a difficulty that didn’t require you to be awesome. Even for lesser rewards that aren’t unique.
Rift had to end up doing this, because they were leaking casual players at one point, since the entire game funneled you into raiding.
And you know, now, with a single raid, it’s not that big a deal. When there are half a dozen it might be.
@MyriadStars So what? This is life. If we aren’t going together then I will find someone else to play it. It doesn’t mean I will break all ties with them at all. Sometimes you need to do compromises. What is more important to me? Raiding or taking care of my family/job? In my case, the latter examples. So I will give up raiding. It is not a priority anymore. Good, I had my fun times, let others have it. But I will not come and demand that because of my new life choices and time-schedules, the game should change, invalidate the opinions of the ones that have the time I once had, just to fit my agenda. I move on. If my time does not allow it, I will not raid, not get the rewards and gain my happy times in the game from other areas of it.
You are telling me something that is as normal as everyday breathing. And I agree with you, it will happen, tomorrow, the next week, the next year. But, and this grinds my gears, I will not demand the game to change based on my new schedule while ignoring a certain part of the community just because muh entitlement.
There are better options. A few years ago, in Wow, they implemented an easier version of each raid (with more but shorter raid wings) and implemented a lfg tool for it. Each smaller raid wing can be completed in under an hour, but the reward is much worse than the rewards from the normal raids which require 50 hours per week to complete.
This is the best because:
1. Players who can raid for 50+ hours per week can get much better gear.
2. Other players can still manage to see the content using a reasonable amount of time, and since they spent much less effort, their gear is much worse.
We can do something similar in GW2, so that:
1. Players who can raid for 50+ hours per week can get legendary armour and other exclusive skins.
2. Others can still manage to see the content using a reasonable amount of time, and since they spent much less effort, the above exclusive items will not be rewarded to them and actual rewards will be stuff like what they could get in scale 1 fractals.
Speaking of exclusion, it seems open world mobs in Maguuma were significantly nerfed for this beta weekend, losing all their mordrem “bite”, so to say.
I would be in favor of reverting this. The mordrem stand out, like the toxic alliance, for being not as much of a pushover as other mobs are. That was what made them special.
in Guild Wars 2: Heart of Thorns
Posted by: Lux Dominatoris.3941
@MyriadStars So what? This is life. If we aren’t going together then I will find someone else to play it. It doesn’t mean I will break all ties with them at all. Sometimes you need to do compromises. What is more important to me? Raiding or taking care of my family/job? In my case, the latter examples. So I will give up raiding. It is not a priority anymore. Good, I had my fun times, let others have it. But I will not come and demand that because of my new life choices and time-schedules, the game should change, invalidate the opinions of the ones that have the time I once had, just to fit my agenda. I move on. If my time does not allow it, I will not raid, not get the rewards and gain my happy times in the game from other areas of it.
You are telling me something that is as normal as everyday breathing. And I agree with you, it will happen, tomorrow, the next week, the next year. But, and this grinds my gears, I will not demand the game to change based on my new schedule while ignoring a certain part of the community just because muh entitlement.
There are better options. A few years ago, in Wow, they implemented an easier version of each raid (with more but shorter raid wings) and implemented a lfg tool for it. Each smaller raid wing can be completed in under an hour, but the reward is much worse than the rewards from the normal raids which require 50 hours per week to complete.
This is the best because:
1. Players who can raid for 50+ hours per week can get much better gear.
2. Other players can still manage to see the content using a reasonable amount of time, and since they spent much less effort, their gear is much worse.
We can do something similar in GW2, so that:
1. Players who can raid for 50+ hours per week can get legendary armour and other exclusive skins.
2. Others can still manage to see the content using a reasonable amount of time, and since they spent much less effort, the above exclusive items will not be rewarded to them and actual rewards will be stuff like what they could get in scale 1 fractals.
I agree with this. It is an awesome solution. Since the game lacks gear progression, the easy reward could be a legendary armor but let’s say for the sake of the example, that from 10 stats you could only chose 5 and lack the legendary effects. Meanwhile the hard reward would be the legendary armor with 10 stats to chose from and the effects.
What if, in this scenario, the casual crowd still acts like today? What then. What would be in that circumstance the solution. Because even in that situation they will blame us. I don’t want them to not have something to do or be able to play the raids. They can thanks to the system Anet is taking, but I want one thing only – the challenge to not be dumbed down. And as a reward, a unique skin, that Anet provides. That’s all. I do not want attunements or certain forced grind for them. No. I want my challenging little corner. A single little corner in a game as big as GW 2. Is it too much to ask?
Am I selfish that I want for them the single barrier they should face to be their own will? Not time barrier, gear grind barrier etc. If you want to do it, learn it and do it. That’s it. And also, I seriously doubt that the raids will take hours and hours. It’s Anet we are talking about. I really do not think they will make something take 12 hours for example.
Give me concrete numbers for your examples. Links, statements, official responses. How do you know the hardcore community is 1%? Stop the parallels with WoW, even if they would copy paste the raids from there it would still be totally different since this game does not have a hard, forced trinity.
It was originally posted by a developer during wow 2.0. During the panda expansion, I believe it is stated again on an interview. You can also check wowwiki.
Before Wrath of the Lich King came out, less than one percent of the playerbase actually experienced Sunwell.
I was actually the 1 percent that done Sunwell but wasn’t able to finish. When the guild leader says they want to extend raiding time to do Sunwell I told them I wasn’t able to commit and was kick out of the guild. This left a trauma for me that I quit mmorpg for a while.
http://wow.gamepedia.com/Sunwell_Plateau
LOTRO pulling the plug of raiding. Because the raiding group is too small.
Wildstar fail to deliver the game to a wider audience. They thought hardcore raiding is the answer. But it is totally wrong
https://www.reddit.com/r/Games/comments/2qnhuj/only_03_of_wildstars_players_have_cleared_the/
(edited by laokoko.7403)
@Tigaseye So the only “toxic” (in the lack of a better word) replies are mine and the one I am replying to is perfectly rational, not selfish and represents the good side? C’mon man, when I make a mistake I admit it. But do you truly believe that the bad guys (from replies) are only the hardcore people? The so called casuals are having the utter most perfected and logical arguments and we are the barbarians? There’s a saying in my country, “You laugh at the straw in that person’s eye while not seeing the crowbar in your own.”
I know what I have read from you and yes, I can’t help but draw my own conclusions.
Your entire position goes against everything I believe, but the way you have presented that position is even less socially acceptable, to me, than the position itself.
I’m not anti-raiding.
I “real” raided in WoW previously, so I don’t mind there being harder levels of raids in games.
But, my heart lies in MoP LFR, where I could play with a random selection of people, at any time I felt like it, for as long as a felt like it.
People of all ages, abilities, backgrounds, family/relationship and job situations, experience of the game and so on.
A word that represents my outlook on life is “inclusive”; not exclusive.
So, of course I find a lot of what you say distasteful.
This is a game, it’s not supposed to replicate, in horrible detail, the worst parts of the “haves and have-nots” of real life.
The real life situation in that respect is horribly extreme, ATM and most people want to get away from all that in games.
But, even if your position was equally valid and as many people were on your side of the fence (which they, almost certainly, are not – even though the ones who aren’t will probably say a lot less), as I say, the way you have voiced it is really not acceptable to me, at all.
I understand that you’re from a different culture and that will have affected your outlook, but that doesn’t mean I have to like the way you talk to, or about, people.
(edited by Tigaseye.2047)
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