Guild Wars 2

Kill.3458:

The fact that people are taking the ascended “requirement” scares me the difference between the 2 is laughable and arguably impossible to truly optimize a raid around

Tbh it’s a bit the same like having food buffs on, it’s probally not that much of a difference but it can just give you that edge to down a boss (i saw a group wipe at 1% or less on the vale guardian on a stream, and the streamer didn’t have his food on, i facepalmed :p)

Testudo.4620:

you realize nobody is forcing you to do raids right? have fun aggressively ignoring the other 96% of the game that’s still available to you i guess

Yes but now they introduced more time blocks (raids) and crafting grinding to get cool gear yet again. You’d think they’d use an expansion to improve their crap crafting system to something like the superior FFXIV system (actual classes, crafting rotations, lots of skins, and not something you hit the AH up to level for unnecessary amounts of gold) and other little things that add up to piles of mediocrity I expect in 3rd rate Korean grinder.

Again, it isn’t just raids on why I’m not buying HoT, its all of the other things they could have improves yet haven’t. Also, every other MMO I play also uses an automated dungeon/raid tool that I immensely enjoy since I refuse to go back to hardcore raiding again after 10+ years of it in EQ and then WoW.

If the devs refuse to modernize their game and respect my free time because I want to enjoy their instance content at my own time and pace randomly, well poop on them, I’ll stick with WoW and FFXIV which already does these things in a superior manner and with better PVE overall.

It really is that simple plus I still feel instance raids don’t belong being shoehorned into non-raid game after 3+ years. I hope this fails spectacularly on them! I’m sure I’m not the only one that feels this way.

Astralporing.1957:

nacario.9417:

Raids are like higher tier pvp, everyone has a shot at it if they make a group and progress. Theres no stat hinderance between higher tiered and low, ascended is the final stat that isnt surpassed by legendary. This game offers vast content types and now finally something to work for, something this game needs to peak interest, while not being the sole focus and doesnt exclude players since we are all on the same stat field. Kids and grownups are easily spoiled.

Except we aren’t on the same stat field. So in that way it is highly unlike PvP. sPvP is all about skill, while raids seem to put greater emphasis on gear.

And gear is easily obtainable by all! Do you want gear thrown at you for free? This mmorpg must be the one that makes this the easiest, for instance I and others have easily made sets of ascended by just doing daily tequatl, guild missions, laurels from dailies and fractals. They all provide means that doesnt require gold. One simply cant complain unless you want stuff without the slightest effort. One can even compete with an ascended weapon and rest exotics. What it comes down to is player skill and build, not the gear stats as one is used with in other mmorpgs, where it is much more time consuming and frustrating to get.

And when raiders are rewarded with legendaries they still arnt better stat wise, it’s just cosmetics and quality of life. What are people so afraid of?

It’s a nice story and I agree for the most part, but I do think there is a small mistake in your introduction.. In fact, raids might even make the game more casual friendly, depending on how you define casual. Is casual based on time spend, or how hard content is?

Let’s look at your introduction:

“As it stands, GW2 is a very Casual friendly MMO. Anet designed this game without any required grind, staying true to their core principles since Day 1 of this game. You play how you want to play, level how you want to level, and ultimately decide what “fun” is. If that “fun” includes grinding content over and over (i.e. FotM, SW chests, Dungeons, etc), that’s your choice.”

I guess I disagree. Yeah there is no “required grind”, on the other hand, a game like WoW is considered a game with required grind, however in GW2 I feel much more grind then I ever did in WoW.

The thing is. Isn’t it true that for many casuals, cosmetics is more interesting that stats, At least that is one definition of ‘casual’, somebody who does not want to have the best stats, but just want some nice skins. GW2 has a lot of grind for skins, most skins you could only in a decent way get by grinding.. there also go’s you “play the way you want”, because if you want to collect cosmetics you can play the way you want, as long as it’s grinding.

Now with the raids, if you are a casual who likes a challenge (and why would that not be possible.. again, it depends on how you define ‘casual’), with raids there is a way to collect some of the skins and gear, more based on a challenge, then just a grind. Let’s hope we see more of that.

Smooth Penguin.5294:

I’d like to take this moment to discuss how Raids (and other Elite content) excludes some players, and why that’s actually good for the game. As it stands, GW2 is a very Casual friendly MMO. Anet designed this game without any required grind, staying true to their core principles since Day 1 of this game. You play how you want to play, level how you want to level, and ultimately decide what “fun” is. If that “fun” includes grinding content over and over (i.e. FotM, SW chests, Dungeons, etc), that’s your choice. Anet doesn’t stop you from voluntarily putting your time and effort to repeating content.

There’s something for everyone in this game. But the content for Elite/Hardcore players, while there, was sorely lacking. Thus the reason why Raids are now being introduced. These players yearn for challenging content with exclusive rewards. The best thing about how Raids are being introduced is that absolutely no one is being left out (technically). All players are allowed to try and play Raids as much as they want, as often as they want.

Here’s the part that might upset people. Raids are hard. There is no easy button for this content. While all players are welcome to play in Raids, not all will have the skills or equipment to succeed. This inherent design is working as intended. Challenging content isn’t made for you just to beat. It’s made for you to push your limits. It requires players to have a full understanding of their build, their party member’s build, and be able to coordinate all together to achieve the goal of beating the Raid. It also requires you to invest time and money into your equipment, thus helping you be more prepared for enemy encounters. Players who cannot adapt will be left out.

The million dollar question: Why is it ok for players to be “left out”?
There’s always a skill level difference between people. There’s also a difference between the time one can invest in playing this MMO. So with Raids, the assumed hardest content available, having it clear by anyone at any skill level takes away from the prestige. Why make hard content if it’s not actually hard? Why offer exclusive rewards if everyone can get them? Having some players excluded from succeeding in clearing the Raids serve as a reason to become a better player. It brings balance to game rewards for those at a higher skill level. Remember, GW2 was never designed to be a “hack & slash” game. Combat was meant to be dynamic. Standing still and swinging your sword may work on weak enemies, but will punish you on the more moderate to strong ones. Each time you learn from a mistake, the more you grow as a player.

People who invest time in learning and adapting in this game should have content that rewards them for their efforts. Raids cater to the Elite/Hardcore players, and gives them rewards based on skill and coordination. It excludes those who aren’t up to that level of commitment. But fear not, Raids will always be there for you if you choose to invest in yourself. Exclusive rewards are never impossible to get if you believe in yourself! Ask not the sparrow how the eagle soars.

tl;dr – Raids are good for this game because it allows high skilled players to earn rewards worthy of their efforts, gives incentives to grow and become a better player, and gives Hardcore players content that they can enjoy.

If these hardcore players were given an option to choose between challenging content and exclusive rewards, what would they choose?

.

If these hardcore players were given an option to choose between challenging content and exclusive rewards, what would they choose?

They would insist that you can’t possibly even entertain such thoughts. Of course they deserve more/better loot for enjoying content A over content B, that is just the way of things!

Don’t get scared, non-elite players. We tried the raid as a pug group and had lot’s of fun. It wasn’t like: BOOM, all bads die. We made progress each try.

Even though it’s brutal hard to kill the boss, it’s decently designed to feel rewarding even for pugs, when dealing with certain mechanics. You’ll die a lot, but you’ll also learn a lot.

Don’t get discouraged! Pug up and learn. Then come back with a more organised group.

Pockets.3201:

Learning and time cannot fix every issue that may keep people from raiding.

Learning and time cannot fix every issue that may keep people from dungeons.
Learning and time cannot fix every issue that may keep people from fractals.
Learning and time cannot fix every issue that may keep people from jumping puzzles.
Learning and time cannot fix every issue that may keep people from WvW.
Learning and time cannot fix every issue that may keep people from PvP.

And that’s ok because the game doesnt require anyone to take part in every kind of content. They are adding a new, different type of content for a sub-group of players that enjoys that kind of content. Fine with me. I probably won’t take part in raids regularly after taking a first look at them, same as it was with fractals.

Automatically raging against content additions that someone personally don’t want is short-sighted. The playerbase is diverse enough to support different interests and playstyles.

The comparison to Tequatl is pretty good imo. When that was revamped there was an outrage you wouldn’t believe because the content was difficult. Now it gets pugged just like the rest of them. Raids will be no different.

Don’t get scared, non-elite players. We tried the raid as a pug group and had lot’s of fun. It wasn’t like: BOOM, all bads die. We made progress each try.

But how much reward do you think you would have made on each try if they’d been implemented? If the answer is “none” then trying and failing repeatedly is not a solution. It needs to provide a reward on each attempt or there are just better things to be doing with the time. “learning” is not a reward, especially when you know perfectly well what to do and it’s other people in the pug that still need to learn. I don’t begrudge them not knowing what to do, everyone has to learn, but their not knowing shouldn’t prevent everyone else from getting rewarded.

Mastruq.2463:

The comparison to Tequatl is pretty good imo. When that was revamped there was an outrage you wouldn’t believe because the content was difficult. Now it gets pugged just like the rest of them. Raids will be no different.

You seem to forget, that in between outrage and teq getting pugged there were several nerfs, and increase of people using ascended gear. It’s not as if the people only learned to do Teq better – it actually really became easier to kill.
But i agree, it’s quite likely this is exactly what is going to happen to raids.

Theloseronian.2075:

If raids are going to be only for those who have the time and ambition to get a group of people together and learn the ins and outs of each encounter in order to beat it, I am totally fine with it even if that would make it highly unlikely I ever get to do a raid.

If raids are only for those who have the time to grind full ascended gear with eveything upgraded and best in slot for enough different professions so that they can always have the only viable group composition for each encounter, then I start having issues with it. Because at that point there IS a gear threshold that requires such a time investment only those with an abundance of spare time can accomplish it – rather than being good at their chosen build.

I think the bolded part would be a hindrance for raids if a player insists on one build only, no matter what. I would change that to being good at your chosen profession as a whole. Any challenging content should require knowing your capabilities with all of your profession’s skills and weapons, and adjusting your build, skills and equipment to fit the challenge presented. If you go longbow/shortbow/bear no matter the situation, you’re selling your ranger short (even if you are very good at that setup).

Astralporing.1957:

Mastruq.2463:

The comparison to Tequatl is pretty good imo. When that was revamped there was an outrage you wouldn’t believe because the content was difficult. Now it gets pugged just like the rest of them. Raids will be no different.

You seem to forget, that in between outrage and teq getting pugged there were several nerfs, and increase of people using ascended gear. It’s not as if the people only learned to do Teq better – it actually really became easier to kill.
But i agree, it’s quite likely this is exactly what is going to happen to raids.

Also, and most importantly in my opinion, they changed the way conditions work so that all the players were actually able to do decent damage to Tequatl (but that was quite recent).

These raids will become “easier” when a bunch of people get comfortable with them, it’s the same with any raid in any game. People get used to it, it goes on “farm” status, people ask where’s the next raid?

Eirdyne.9843:

Anet could surprise me, but so far I’m not convinced it will get so bad we’ll see players gear-locked from content or something like the rest of the MMOs out there.

I would like to comment though, if a person is paying for a game they should be able to play all of it. So, any argument that says a section of the player base can be excluded from content because “reasons” is going to be getting a song written about them at the Eolian amusingly similar to that written for Ambrose Jakis.

I can’t really think of a game that actively prevents players from playing the entire game, how would that even work? It’s always the player that stops himself from playing the entire game, for a wide variety of very legitimate reasons. You would have to drag the discussion into physical or mental disabilities if you want to construct something where it’s no longer your own choice to not play part of the game.

Aerlen.5326:

Well they’re not so where’s my %? Where’s the % for a player who regularly beat Teq when it was new and not a cake walk? For someone who hates agony and fractals?

From that line I’d say raids are content for you. Of course that’s as much a blind guess as the entire thread until the full raid content is known. Time will tell.

Carighan.6758:

Because that is totally possible and won’t backfire at all, as WildStar tried to prove. Right? Right?

I often see Wildstar mentioned in the raid debate – honest question, is it really relevant? Everyone I know didnt care for that game for several reasons long before even reaching the cap and raids. For me and those I know it had already failed and we left before we could judge how their “hardcore raids” stance plays out.

I don’t have a problem with them introducing raids. I might even give them a shot myself. I just don’t want them to abandon other parts of the game.

Mastruq.2463:

Carighan.6758:

Because that is totally possible and won’t backfire at all, as WildStar tried to prove. Right? Right?

I often see Wildstar mentioned in the raid debate – honest question, is it really relevant? Everyone I know didnt care for that game for several reasons long before even reaching the cap and raids. For me and those I know it had already failed and we left before we could judge how their “hardcore raids” stance plays out.

The way wildstar implemented raids was so thst it could only be reached by a few players. At least here we can raid from the get go

Mastruq.2463:

Aerlen.5326:

Well they’re not so where’s my %? Where’s the % for a player who regularly beat Teq when it was new and not a cake walk? For someone who hates agony and fractals?

From that line I’d say raids are content for you. Of course that’s as much a blind guess as the entire thread until the full raid content is known. Time will tell.

No. The entire fight against teq lasts 15 minutes. You may fail or succeed, but you don’t need a big block of time to attempt it. However, each raid wing will have many bosses and resets every week, so you do need more than 15 minutes to do it. Even if you are the most skillful payer among all GW2 players, you cannot raid if you don’t have a huge block of time for it.

Marcus Greythorne.6843:

Don’t get scared, non-elite players. We tried the raid as a pug group and had lot’s of fun. It wasn’t like: BOOM, all bads die. We made progress each try.

Even though it’s brutal hard to kill the boss, it’s decently designed to feel rewarding even for pugs, when dealing with certain mechanics. You’ll die a lot, but you’ll also learn a lot.

Don’t get discouraged! Pug up and learn. Then come back with a more organised group.

If each raid wing contains one boss only plus some mini bosses, then sure, there is no need to fear. However, if a raid wing contains 5+ bosses and your progress is reset every week, then raids = time sinks, which are typical MMO traps which GW2 was advertised to avoid when it was released.

MyriadStars.5679:

Marcus Greythorne.6843:

Don’t get scared, non-elite players. We tried the raid as a pug group and had lot’s of fun. It wasn’t like: BOOM, all bads die. We made progress each try.

Even though it’s brutal hard to kill the boss, it’s decently designed to feel rewarding even for pugs, when dealing with certain mechanics. You’ll die a lot, but you’ll also learn a lot.

Don’t get discouraged! Pug up and learn. Then come back with a more organised group.

If each raid wing contains one boss only plus some mini bosses, then sure, there is no need to fear. However, if a raid wing contains 5+ bosses and your progress is reset every week, then raids = time sinks, which are typical MMO traps which GW2 was advertised to avoid when it was released.

Progress is not reset.

This is such a dumb argument because there is nothing saying you can’t have an easy mode for raids and a hard mode. Do you think devil may cry would have been so successful if it only had one difficulty level?

I don’t understand the mindset of you people. Just make a hard mode with exclusive rewards. Completely locking out 99% of the playerbase out of content because the one %1 want to feel special is just bad demographic targeting.

A hard raiding game is the game everyone cries for but nobody wants. It’s called wildstar and it crashed and burned 1 month after launch.

It had stupid hard raiding and massive attunement requirements that took a giant steaming crap on everyone but the most jobless and time dedicated players.

People who complain about raiding and want to be hard come back and cry on here for the complete opposite reasons. Guild breaking, too much time, have kids, have to work, loot drama, dkp, gaming as a job, and all the things exclusive raiding brings.

People don’t want a hard raiding game, the want a game for everyone with a sprinkle of hard encounters.

lordhelmos.7623:

This is such a dumb argument because there is nothing saying you can’t have an easy mode for raids and a hard mode. Do you think devil may cry would have been so successful if it only had one difficulty level?

I don’t understand the mindset of you people. Just make a hard mode with exclusive rewards. Completely locking out 99% of the playerbase out of content because the one %1 want to feel special is just bad demographic targeting.

A hard raiding game is the game everyone cries for but nobody wants. It’s called wildstar and it crashed and burned 1 month after launch.

It had stupid hard raiding and massive attunement requirements that took a giant steaming crap on everyone but the most jobless and time dedicated players.

People who complain about raiding and want to be hard come back and cry on here for the complete opposite reasons. Guild breaking, too much time, have kids, have to work, loot drama, dkp, gaming as a job, and all the things exclusive raiding brings.

People don’t want a hard raiding game, the want a game for everyone with a sprinkle of hard encounters.

The problem is, people are not taking into account that you are asking Anet Dev’s to double up their work load, this means they need to double on future raid content as well. They do have other areas in game that need their attention, its pretty selfish to expect they should spend all their time creating multiple difficulties because you want easy.

MyriadStars.5679:

By the way, I am totally shocked that many posts suggest that casuals = no skills. In the days of vanilla WoW, people tended to think that casuals = players who cannot spend a lot of time gaming due to real-life commitments, and it had nothing to do with skills. There were many people with amazing skills in WoW claimed themselves to be casuals.

I agree with you. “casual” should not be used as an insult.

It’s simply descriptive of a player who plays less frequently. It has no bearing on their skill level.

That said, people that play more casually should do so with the understanding that it will take them longer to get things in stead of demanding _everything be built around their schedule.

Most of the game is built around casual play. Adding a tiny portion of content to cater to a more hardcore crowd. When casual players demand that 100% of the game should be made specifically for their schedules, it is equally as daamaging and insulting as “hardcore” retirees, students, or other people that play much more frequently demanding that 100% of the game is designed around them.

The notion that GW2 is a casual game only for casuals is false, and has always been false. It’s a game designed to be as inclusive as possible of all types of players. That’s why we have wvw, and spvp, and fractals, and now raids, as well as primarily accessible casual content in the open world and story instances

The demand that “well I play the game 4 hours a week and can do some things so i should be able to do all the things” is extremely selfish.

It’s not like anyone is demanding the entire game be suddenly made “more hardcore” yet people find it acceptable to demand the entire game be “more casual”

How about this:

Why don’t they do exactly what they are doing, and try to serve some content for all types of players in stead of designing the whole game around one subset of the community?

PopeUrban.2578:

How about this:

Why don’t they do exactly what they are doing, and try to serve some content for all types of players in stead of designing the whole game around one subset of the community?

They advertised GW2 as a game without typical MMO traps. Raids are typical MMO traps, as they are time sinks. People do have the right to complain about false advertising.

Blizzard didn’t advertise WoW as a game without MMO traps. Even they did implement LFR to make a version of raids for people who can play 60-90 minutes a time. Why can’t Anet do the same? At least they won’t be accused of bait and switch if they do so.

Ayrilana.1396:

MyriadStars.5679:

Marcus Greythorne.6843:

Don’t get scared, non-elite players. We tried the raid as a pug group and had lot’s of fun. It wasn’t like: BOOM, all bads die. We made progress each try.

Even though it’s brutal hard to kill the boss, it’s decently designed to feel rewarding even for pugs, when dealing with certain mechanics. You’ll die a lot, but you’ll also learn a lot.

Don’t get discouraged! Pug up and learn. Then come back with a more organised group.

If each raid wing contains one boss only plus some mini bosses, then sure, there is no need to fear. However, if a raid wing contains 5+ bosses and your progress is reset every week, then raids = time sinks, which are typical MMO traps which GW2 was advertised to avoid when it was released.

Progress is not reset.

Did you mean that if I kill the first two bosses and stop playing the game for 2 months, I can directly attempt the 3rd boss after I return to GW2?

Random.4691:

The problem is, people are not taking into account that you are asking Anet Dev’s to double up their work load, this means they need to double on future raid content as well. They do have other areas in game that need their attention, its pretty selfish to expect they should spend all their time creating multiple difficulties because you want easy.

There is a simple solution. Just implement raids using a system like fractals. Put each raid boss in a separate instance, and then it will be true that skills are the only gating.

Let’s say only 1% of the players will find enough free time to complete a raid if a raid contains many bosses. These 1% actually have to treat raid as a 2nd full-time job, instead of playing a game to relax themselves.

By doing it differently, everyone will have the time to see the content, no matter whether he can complete it or not. Wouldn’t it be more efficient for Anet to use their time to create content that everyone can attempt whenever they want to, instead of creating content that only 1% of the players can truly find time to complete? This will not make the content less challenging, as the same amount of skills are needed to complete it.

MyriadStars.5679:

Ayrilana.1396:

MyriadStars.5679:

Marcus Greythorne.6843:

Don’t get scared, non-elite players. We tried the raid as a pug group and had lot’s of fun. It wasn’t like: BOOM, all bads die. We made progress each try.

Even though it’s brutal hard to kill the boss, it’s decently designed to feel rewarding even for pugs, when dealing with certain mechanics. You’ll die a lot, but you’ll also learn a lot.

Don’t get discouraged! Pug up and learn. Then come back with a more organised group.

If each raid wing contains one boss only plus some mini bosses, then sure, there is no need to fear. However, if a raid wing contains 5+ bosses and your progress is reset every week, then raids = time sinks, which are typical MMO traps which GW2 was advertised to avoid when it was released.

Progress is not reset.

Did you mean that if I kill the first two bosses and stop playing the game for 2 months, I can directly attempt the 3rd boss after I return to GW2?

Yes.

It’s based on a permanent gate system, like the living story. Complete boss 1 to unlock boss 2, you can now do boss 2 whenever you want.

Further, you don’t even have to do boss 1 as long as whoever starts the instance has, but each boos has unique loot (the assumption is that each drops a different armor precursor in addition to its unique skins) so you’d want to do them all if you were after a full set of precursors, but if you don’t want the precursors and only want a specific boss skin, you can do just that boss as long as you’re in a group where the instance starter has access to that wing.

PopeUrban.2578:

MyriadStars.5679:

Ayrilana.1396:

MyriadStars.5679:

Marcus Greythorne.6843:

Don’t get scared, non-elite players. We tried the raid as a pug group and had lot’s of fun. It wasn’t like: BOOM, all bads die. We made progress each try.

Even though it’s brutal hard to kill the boss, it’s decently designed to feel rewarding even for pugs, when dealing with certain mechanics. You’ll die a lot, but you’ll also learn a lot.

Don’t get discouraged! Pug up and learn. Then come back with a more organised group.

If each raid wing contains one boss only plus some mini bosses, then sure, there is no need to fear. However, if a raid wing contains 5+ bosses and your progress is reset every week, then raids = time sinks, which are typical MMO traps which GW2 was advertised to avoid when it was released.

Progress is not reset.

Did you mean that if I kill the first two bosses and stop playing the game for 2 months, I can directly attempt the 3rd boss after I return to GW2?

Yes.

It’s based on a permanent gate system, like the living story. Complete boss 1 to unlock boss 2, you can now do boss 2 whenever you want.

That’s not what is said in the GW2 wiki:
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Raid

“Progress within a raid will be saved for players that leave the instance. Restarting an instance will remember progress made if created before the weekly reset.”

Therefore, if you kill the first boss before the weekly reset, you have to kill him again, unless you find someone who killed the first boss after the weekly reset to start the raids.

If Anet changed their mind and use what you said to implement the weekly reset, then it would acceptable, though not ideal.

MyriadStars.5679:

PopeUrban.2578:

MyriadStars.5679:

Ayrilana.1396:

MyriadStars.5679:

Marcus Greythorne.6843:

Don’t get scared, non-elite players. We tried the raid as a pug group and had lot’s of fun. It wasn’t like: BOOM, all bads die. We made progress each try.

Even though it’s brutal hard to kill the boss, it’s decently designed to feel rewarding even for pugs, when dealing with certain mechanics. You’ll die a lot, but you’ll also learn a lot.

Don’t get discouraged! Pug up and learn. Then come back with a more organised group.

If each raid wing contains one boss only plus some mini bosses, then sure, there is no need to fear. However, if a raid wing contains 5+ bosses and your progress is reset every week, then raids = time sinks, which are typical MMO traps which GW2 was advertised to avoid when it was released.

Progress is not reset.

Did you mean that if I kill the first two bosses and stop playing the game for 2 months, I can directly attempt the 3rd boss after I return to GW2?

Yes.

It’s based on a permanent gate system, like the living story. Complete boss 1 to unlock boss 2, you can now do boss 2 whenever you want.

That’s not what is said in the GW2 wiki:
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Raid

“Progress within a raid will be saved for players that leave the instance. Restarting an instance will remember progress made if created before the weekly reset.”

Therefore, if you kill the first boss before the weekly reset, you have to kill him again, unless you find someone who killed the first boss after the weekly reset to start the raids.

If Anet changed their mind and use what you said to implement the weekly reset, then it would acceptable, though not ideal.

I encourage you to go watch the raid stream from twitchcon. They were quite clear about this.

That refers to progress within a wing. If you have progressed up to, but not beaten the boss in a wing and come back before the reset all previous encounters will remain completed so you don’t have to repeat them.

MyriadStars.5679:

Ayrilana.1396:

MyriadStars.5679:

Marcus Greythorne.6843:

Don’t get scared, non-elite players. We tried the raid as a pug group and had lot’s of fun. It wasn’t like: BOOM, all bads die. We made progress each try.

Even though it’s brutal hard to kill the boss, it’s decently designed to feel rewarding even for pugs, when dealing with certain mechanics. You’ll die a lot, but you’ll also learn a lot.

Don’t get discouraged! Pug up and learn. Then come back with a more organised group.

If each raid wing contains one boss only plus some mini bosses, then sure, there is no need to fear. However, if a raid wing contains 5+ bosses and your progress is reset every week, then raids = time sinks, which are typical MMO traps which GW2 was advertised to avoid when it was released.

Progress is not reset.

Did you mean that if I kill the first two bosses and stop playing the game for 2 months, I can directly attempt the 3rd boss after I return to GW2?

No I think he meant your knowledge of the bosses you’ve killed will remain after the reset and your pulls next week will benefit from that.

When progressing through ICC Heroic in WoW we spent the first week dealing with only 2 bosses, by the end we could clear the whole thing in 1 evening (it had something like 11 bosses I think). Progression is not reset.

PopeUrban.2578:

MyriadStars.5679:

PopeUrban.2578:

MyriadStars.5679:

Ayrilana.1396:

MyriadStars.5679:

Marcus Greythorne.6843:

Don’t get scared, non-elite players. We tried the raid as a pug group and had lot’s of fun. It wasn’t like: BOOM, all bads die. We made progress each try.

Even though it’s brutal hard to kill the boss, it’s decently designed to feel rewarding even for pugs, when dealing with certain mechanics. You’ll die a lot, but you’ll also learn a lot.

Don’t get discouraged! Pug up and learn. Then come back with a more organised group.

If each raid wing contains one boss only plus some mini bosses, then sure, there is no need to fear. However, if a raid wing contains 5+ bosses and your progress is reset every week, then raids = time sinks, which are typical MMO traps which GW2 was advertised to avoid when it was released.

Progress is not reset.

Did you mean that if I kill the first two bosses and stop playing the game for 2 months, I can directly attempt the 3rd boss after I return to GW2?

Yes.

It’s based on a permanent gate system, like the living story. Complete boss 1 to unlock boss 2, you can now do boss 2 whenever you want.

That’s not what is said in the GW2 wiki:
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Raid

“Progress within a raid will be saved for players that leave the instance. Restarting an instance will remember progress made if created before the weekly reset.”

Therefore, if you kill the first boss before the weekly reset, you have to kill him again, unless you find someone who killed the first boss after the weekly reset to start the raids.

If Anet changed their mind and use what you said to implement the weekly reset, then it would acceptable, though not ideal.

I encourage you to go watch the raid stream from twitchcon. They were quite clear about this.

That refers to progress within a wing. If you have progressed up to, but not beaten the boss in a wing and come back before the reset all previous encounters will remain completed so you don’t have to repeat them.

I knew this, and I also know that reset is done every week. Therefore, your progress made before the reset is lost when they reset it on a weekly basis.

Coulter.2315:

MyriadStars.5679:

Ayrilana.1396:

MyriadStars.5679:

Marcus Greythorne.6843:

Don’t get scared, non-elite players. We tried the raid as a pug group and had lot’s of fun. It wasn’t like: BOOM, all bads die. We made progress each try.

Even though it’s brutal hard to kill the boss, it’s decently designed to feel rewarding even for pugs, when dealing with certain mechanics. You’ll die a lot, but you’ll also learn a lot.

Don’t get discouraged! Pug up and learn. Then come back with a more organised group.

If each raid wing contains one boss only plus some mini bosses, then sure, there is no need to fear. However, if a raid wing contains 5+ bosses and your progress is reset every week, then raids = time sinks, which are typical MMO traps which GW2 was advertised to avoid when it was released.

Progress is not reset.

Did you mean that if I kill the first two bosses and stop playing the game for 2 months, I can directly attempt the 3rd boss after I return to GW2?

No I think he meant your knowledge of the bosses you’ve killed will remain after the reset and your pulls next week will benefit from that.

When progressing through ICC Heroic in WoW we spent the first week dealing with only 2 bosses, by the end we could clear the whole thing in 1 evening (it had something like 11 bosses I think). Progression is not reset.

I knew that, as I helped my WoW guild learn the entire BWL in vanilla WoW. However, from my previous experience, I also learned that it is false that skill level is the only gating to raids. The amount of available free time is the primary gating. Furthermore, I also learned that 90% of the players who had the time for raids at some stage of their life normally stopped having such time sooner or later. Therefore, people who do have the time for raids now should know that what others are currently asking for will ultimately benefit them in a few years’ time.

MyriadStars.5679:

PopeUrban.2578:

MyriadStars.5679:

PopeUrban.2578:

MyriadStars.5679:

Ayrilana.1396:

MyriadStars.5679:

Marcus Greythorne.6843:

Don’t get scared, non-elite players. We tried the raid as a pug group and had lot’s of fun. It wasn’t like: BOOM, all bads die. We made progress each try.

Even though it’s brutal hard to kill the boss, it’s decently designed to feel rewarding even for pugs, when dealing with certain mechanics. You’ll die a lot, but you’ll also learn a lot.

Don’t get discouraged! Pug up and learn. Then come back with a more organised group.

If each raid wing contains one boss only plus some mini bosses, then sure, there is no need to fear. However, if a raid wing contains 5+ bosses and your progress is reset every week, then raids = time sinks, which are typical MMO traps which GW2 was advertised to avoid when it was released.

Progress is not reset.

Did you mean that if I kill the first two bosses and stop playing the game for 2 months, I can directly attempt the 3rd boss after I return to GW2?

Yes.

It’s based on a permanent gate system, like the living story. Complete boss 1 to unlock boss 2, you can now do boss 2 whenever you want.

That’s not what is said in the GW2 wiki:
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Raid

“Progress within a raid will be saved for players that leave the instance. Restarting an instance will remember progress made if created before the weekly reset.”

Therefore, if you kill the first boss before the weekly reset, you have to kill him again, unless you find someone who killed the first boss after the weekly reset to start the raids.

If Anet changed their mind and use what you said to implement the weekly reset, then it would acceptable, though not ideal.

I encourage you to go watch the raid stream from twitchcon. They were quite clear about this.

That refers to progress within a wing. If you have progressed up to, but not beaten the boss in a wing and come back before the reset all previous encounters will remain completed so you don’t have to repeat them.

I knew this, and I also know that reset is done every week. Therefore, your progress made before the reset is lost when they reset it on a weekly basis.

Yes, but it’s progress within one wing, and each wing is a “single session” chunk of content if done successfully, 1-2 hours worth, which you can spread out over an entire week if you’re failing repeatedly and learning the encounters.

The raid as a whole is split up in to wings, so when you reach that “checkpoint” of killing the first boss, that progress is never reset. You will never have to kill that first boss, or any of the trash that leads up to him, ever again unless you want to do it for more/different loot.

By the way, even after Blizzard implemented LFR in Cataclysm, most of the players who quit WOW when they no longer had the time for raids did not return to WoW, even though they played 30+ hours of WoW per week when they had the time. We can wait to see the same thing happen to GW2, or Anet programmers can learn from this and do it right from the very beginning.

Coming from 72+ Man Raids in Everquest (1999~) that were HARD and required guild attendance of 93% or the community would kick you; going to WoW for raids with 40 players, then down to 10man/25man/heroic, then being able to Pug my way through WoTK 10 and 25mans(dropped WoW at Cata)….the ONE thing I hope for is that these raids in GW2 start off as HARD, as they will only be made easier as the community cry’s and whines over being unable to complete them.

I would like to see 3 branches of raids, IMHO. 10man for everyone, 25man for the ‘elite’ few, and maybe a heroic(more then 25 players!) branch when the 25man runners get bored. Similar to how WoW does it, but less Puggy. The bosses in raids should not be a faceroll and it shouldn’t be faceroll through countless mobs to get to a hard boss either.

the entire place needs to feel more like a raid and less like a smash and bash to see boss (like how nearly all the exp paths are right now)

PopeUrban.2578:

MyriadStars.5679:

PopeUrban.2578:

MyriadStars.5679:

PopeUrban.2578:

MyriadStars.5679:

Ayrilana.1396:

MyriadStars.5679:

Marcus Greythorne.6843:

Don’t get scared, non-elite players. We tried the raid as a pug group and had lot’s of fun. It wasn’t like: BOOM, all bads die. We made progress each try.

Even though it’s brutal hard to kill the boss, it’s decently designed to feel rewarding even for pugs, when dealing with certain mechanics. You’ll die a lot, but you’ll also learn a lot.

Don’t get discouraged! Pug up and learn. Then come back with a more organised group.

If each raid wing contains one boss only plus some mini bosses, then sure, there is no need to fear. However, if a raid wing contains 5+ bosses and your progress is reset every week, then raids = time sinks, which are typical MMO traps which GW2 was advertised to avoid when it was released.

Progress is not reset.

Did you mean that if I kill the first two bosses and stop playing the game for 2 months, I can directly attempt the 3rd boss after I return to GW2?

Yes.

It’s based on a permanent gate system, like the living story. Complete boss 1 to unlock boss 2, you can now do boss 2 whenever you want.

That’s not what is said in the GW2 wiki:
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Raid

“Progress within a raid will be saved for players that leave the instance. Restarting an instance will remember progress made if created before the weekly reset.”

Therefore, if you kill the first boss before the weekly reset, you have to kill him again, unless you find someone who killed the first boss after the weekly reset to start the raids.

If Anet changed their mind and use what you said to implement the weekly reset, then it would acceptable, though not ideal.

I encourage you to go watch the raid stream from twitchcon. They were quite clear about this.

That refers to progress within a wing. If you have progressed up to, but not beaten the boss in a wing and come back before the reset all previous encounters will remain completed so you don’t have to repeat them.

I knew this, and I also know that reset is done every week. Therefore, your progress made before the reset is lost when they reset it on a weekly basis.

Yes, but it’s progress within one wing, and each wing is a “single session” chunk of content if done successfully, 1-2 hours worth, which you can spread out over an entire week if you’re failing repeatedly and learning the encounters.

The raid as a whole is split up in to wings, so when you reach that “checkpoint” of killing the first boss, that progress is never reset. You will never have to kill that first boss, or any of the trash that leads up to him, ever again unless you want to do it for more/different loot.

We do have to wait to see if each raid wing can be cleared in 1 hour. If this is the case, then Anet should announce it, because this means that raids in GW2 are very, very different from raids in other MMOs, and proves that Anet is true to their manifesto.

MyriadStars.5679:

Coulter.2315:

MyriadStars.5679:

Ayrilana.1396:

MyriadStars.5679:

Marcus Greythorne.6843:

Don’t get scared, non-elite players. We tried the raid as a pug group and had lot’s of fun. It wasn’t like: BOOM, all bads die. We made progress each try.

Even though it’s brutal hard to kill the boss, it’s decently designed to feel rewarding even for pugs, when dealing with certain mechanics. You’ll die a lot, but you’ll also learn a lot.

Don’t get discouraged! Pug up and learn. Then come back with a more organised group.

If each raid wing contains one boss only plus some mini bosses, then sure, there is no need to fear. However, if a raid wing contains 5+ bosses and your progress is reset every week, then raids = time sinks, which are typical MMO traps which GW2 was advertised to avoid when it was released.

Progress is not reset.

Did you mean that if I kill the first two bosses and stop playing the game for 2 months, I can directly attempt the 3rd boss after I return to GW2?

No I think he meant your knowledge of the bosses you’ve killed will remain after the reset and your pulls next week will benefit from that.

When progressing through ICC Heroic in WoW we spent the first week dealing with only 2 bosses, by the end we could clear the whole thing in 1 evening (it had something like 11 bosses I think). Progression is not reset.

I knew that, as I helped my WoW guild learn the entire BWL in vanilla WoW. However, from my previous experience, I also learned that it is false that skill level is the only gating to raids. The amount of available free time is the primary gating. Furthermore, I also learned that 90% of the players who had the time for raids at some stage of their life normally stopped having such time sooner or later. Therefore, people who do have the time for raids now should know that what others are currently asking for will ultimately benefit them in a few years’ time.

Well you seem pretty interested in Raiding 10 years after BWL was released. Every day we can make the choice to spend our time differently – its entirely down to the individual’s choices – you cannot design a game that will grant the same experience to 12-90 yr olds in all professions in all desired focuses of life.

Coulter.2315:

you cannot design a game that will grant the same experience to 12-90 yr olds in all professions in all desired focuses of life.

Anet always says that GW2 is revolutionary:P Well, actually Blizzard essentially managed to make all content available to everyone (or at least one version of it containing the entire story) after they implemented LFR. This is done even though their player base is more hardcore.

MyriadStars.5679:

By the way, even after Blizzard implemented LFR in Cataclysm, most of the players who quit WOW when they no longer had the time for raids did not return to WoW, even though they played 30+ hours of WoW per week when they had the time. We can wait to see the same thing happen to GW2, or Anet programmers can learn from this and do it right from the very beginning.

People left in Cata because of many things (the giant wait between it and pandas with only an 8 boss raid for a year being a main issue), infact the raiding community is one of the strongest and most stable WoW has and in its current expansion the raids were the main target of praise. You cannot ask LFR to be implemented as a benefit to the system when WotLK didn’t have it and held onto its players better than any other expansion after (the current one dropping so dramaticly at the beginning of this year).

MyriadStars.5679:

Coulter.2315:

you cannot design a game that will grant the same experience to 12-90 yr olds in all professions in all desired focuses of life.

Anet always says that GW2 is revolutionary:P Well, actually Blizzard essentially managed to make all content available to everyone (or at least one version of it containing the entire story) after they implemented LFR. This is done even though their player base is more hardcore.

I know you’re joking, my point stands.

WoW kept its subs for longer and had better numbers in WotLK (which did not have LFR).

MyriadStars.5679:

Coulter.2315:

you cannot design a game that will grant the same experience to 12-90 yr olds in all professions in all desired focuses of life.

Anet always says that GW2 is revolutionary:P Well, actually Blizzard essentially managed to make all content available to everyone (or at least one version of it containing the entire story) after they implemented LFR. This is done even though their player base is more hardcore.

Yup and how many expansions did WoW have before they implemented LFR?

Coulter.2315:

MyriadStars.5679:

By the way, even after Blizzard implemented LFR in Cataclysm, most of the players who quit WOW when they no longer had the time for raids did not return to WoW, even though they played 30+ hours of WoW per week when they had the time. We can wait to see the same thing happen to GW2, or Anet programmers can learn from this and do it right from the very beginning.

People left in Cata because of many things (the giant wait between it and pandas with only an 8 boss raid for a year being a main issue), infact the raiding community is one of the strongest and most stable WoW has and in its current expansion the raids were the main target of praise. You cannot ask LFR to be implemented as a benefit to the system when WotLK didn’t have it and held onto its players better than any other expansion after (the current one dropping so dramaticly at the beginning of this year).

While I essentially agree with what you said regarding wow subscriptions, I’d like to mention that we are looking at different aspects. It is true that the raid community is stable in WoW, but the actual players who are currently raiding change over time. Most players who had the time for raids eventually quit raiding. My opinion is that, if Blizzard had implemented LFR much earlier, many of these players who quit raiding wouldn’t have quit the game entirely.

GrapeGatsby.6937:

MyriadStars.5679:

Coulter.2315:

you cannot design a game that will grant the same experience to 12-90 yr olds in all professions in all desired focuses of life.

Anet always says that GW2 is revolutionary:P Well, actually Blizzard essentially managed to make all content available to everyone (or at least one version of it containing the entire story) after they implemented LFR. This is done even though their player base is more hardcore.

Yup and how many expansions did WoW have before they implemented LFR?

They did do it in the end. Anet can learn from others’ experience and do it much sooner. When we learned, say, physics in high school, we only spent several years on it, instead of spending hundreds of years which were needed for physicists to create the theory that is taught in textbooks.

MyriadStars.5679:

GrapeGatsby.6937:

MyriadStars.5679:

Coulter.2315:

you cannot design a game that will grant the same experience to 12-90 yr olds in all professions in all desired focuses of life.

Anet always says that GW2 is revolutionary:P Well, actually Blizzard essentially managed to make all content available to everyone (or at least one version of it containing the entire story) after they implemented LFR. This is done even though their player base is more hardcore.

Yup and how many expansions did WoW have before they implemented LFR?

They did do it in the end. Anet can learn from others’ experience and do it much sooner. When we learned, say, physics in high school, we only spent several years on it, instead of spending hundreds of years which were needed for physicists to create the theory that is taught in textbooks.

Yea… I’m not sure about that Anet is a really slow company for example I quit a year and half ago and ranger was bad at dps then, I come back and ranger is still bad at dps. Also LFR seems like something that just doesn’t work with GW2 a difficulty adjustment similar to fractal may though.

MyriadStars.5679:

Coulter.2315:

MyriadStars.5679:

By the way, even after Blizzard implemented LFR in Cataclysm, most of the players who quit WOW when they no longer had the time for raids did not return to WoW, even though they played 30+ hours of WoW per week when they had the time. We can wait to see the same thing happen to GW2, or Anet programmers can learn from this and do it right from the very beginning.

People left in Cata because of many things (the giant wait between it and pandas with only an 8 boss raid for a year being a main issue), infact the raiding community is one of the strongest and most stable WoW has and in its current expansion the raids were the main target of praise. You cannot ask LFR to be implemented as a benefit to the system when WotLK didn’t have it and held onto its players better than any other expansion after (the current one dropping so dramaticly at the beginning of this year).

While I essentially agree with what you said regarding wow subscriptions, I’d like to mention that we are looking at different aspects. It is true that the raid community is stable in WoW, but the actual players who are currently aiding change over time. Most players who had the time for raids eventually quit raiding. My opinion is that, if Blizzard had implemented LFR much earlier, many of these players who quit raiding wouldn’t have quit the game entirely.

Well I was a very focused raider back in WotLK (came to the game late because I was playing GW1 ^^) and Cata, and LFR made me feel sick at how crippled and stripped down the bosses were. I actually ran them every week to try and get those set bonus drops to help out my performance in the actual raid with guild and I can promise you the moment I would choose to stop raiding that would not mean I had ANY desire to play LFR for fun (because it wasn’t fun, it was AWFUL).

Notice I’m not saying LFR wasn’t popular with some people but I do contest your assertion that a “retiring raider” would ever consider doing them for fun, they were just depressing. They were designed so everyone could see the whole raid – notice WoW’s main story line conclusions were raids – and they were not there as a substitute for “people who wanted to raid but didn’t have the time” because they weren’t raiding, they were attacking a target dummy dressed up as a raid with nothing that made a raid a raid.

MyriadStars.5679:

GrapeGatsby.6937:

MyriadStars.5679:

Coulter.2315:

you cannot design a game that will grant the same experience to 12-90 yr olds in all professions in all desired focuses of life.

Anet always says that GW2 is revolutionary:P Well, actually Blizzard essentially managed to make all content available to everyone (or at least one version of it containing the entire story) after they implemented LFR. This is done even though their player base is more hardcore.

Yup and how many expansions did WoW have before they implemented LFR?

They did do it in the end. Anet can learn from others’ experience and do it much sooner. When we learned, say, physics in high school, we only spent several years on it, instead of spending hundreds of years which were needed for physicists to create the theory that is taught in textbooks.

If GW2 is going to have LFR, then GW2 needs a ‘gearscore’ approach. But list the build/gear of the joining members to the LFR, else you might get raids with full bezerker and no support traits which would yeild with 100% failure for those unskilled players.

IMHO, LFR is a BAD idea until there is a subsystem that helps train players on HOW to properly raid and gear that is not outside of the GW2 game.

Coulter.2315:

you cannot design a game that will grant the same experience to 12-90 yr olds in all professions in all desired focuses of life.

Exactly, but the problem about it is that they designed and sold the game to someone…and after a while, totally changed direction.

Kevan.8912:

Coulter.2315:

you cannot design a game that will grant the same experience to 12-90 yr olds in all professions in all desired focuses of life.

Exactly, but the problem about it is that they designed and sold the game to someone…and after a while, totally changed direction.

Please elaborate on how they “totally changed direction”.

Kevan.8912:

Coulter.2315:

you cannot design a game that will grant the same experience to 12-90 yr olds in all professions in all desired focuses of life.

Exactly, but the problem about it is that they designed and sold the game to someone…and after a while, totally changed direction.

Erm.. They announced Challenging Group Content as soon as HoT was spoken about – you were sold CGC and Raids, if you bought HoT you’re getting what they advertised. HoT was sold on the inclusion of raids (dsignated CGC initially but raids have been spoken about for a long time now), you cannot buy it and complain you were mislead somehow…

Coulter.2315:

Notice I’m not saying LFR wasn’t popular with some people but I do contest your assertion that a “retiring raider” would ever consider doing them for fun, they were just depressing. They were designed so everyone could see the whole raid – notice WoW’s main story line conclusions were raids – and they were not there as a substitute for “people who wanted to raid but didn’t have the time” because they weren’t raiding, they were attacking a target dummy dressed up as a raid with nothing that made a raid a raid.

I think it depends on why they retired from raiding. If it’s because they are tired of mindlessly farming raid instances over and over again, to satisfy the attendance required by raid guilds, then sure, it’s possible that they won’t be interested in LFR, either. However, if it’s because they no longer have the time for raids, then it depends on whether they are interested in stories, i.e., the lore. If they are, they may choose to do LFR a few times for lore, instead of for loot, and stay in the game longer between expansions. Even though the story line in WoW is far inferior to Warcraft 3, it’s still better to have the access to the story line instead of not having it entirely.