Guild Wars 2

Uhm yes, guilty as charged with the word easy. i just don´t know how to describe it elsewise. Less time consuming, a differently structured raid of the same difficulty level maybe? I have no problem to work for my stuff in general. But if I have only way to work for it I don´t like, my motivation for GW2 will not exactly skyrocket if you know what I mean.

And yes, they probably won´t reach it this way if it is not easy enough for them. So this would only solve the problem of time restrains, not devotion. To be frankly honest, I have no solution for a lacking devotion and would not ask for something like that in the first place.

The compromise in a grand scheme you describe is also something from politics, a generally fair agreement of the worst possible bottom solution or inability so that no one feels left out because all suffer the same. It´s a type of solution I often use too if I don´t find a better one, but it never makes me happy. You?

Torolan.5816:

The compromise in a grand scheme you describe is also something from politics, a generally fair agreement of the worst possible bottom solution or inability so that no one feels left out because all suffer the same. It´s a type of solution I often use too if I don´t find a better one, but it never makes me happy. You?

When you have to deal with so many different opinions on a subject and for one reason or the other you have to please all of then it’s the only solution. It’s not a perfect solution but at least it’s a solution. Isn’t that what a compromise is? The alternative is to pick a side and go with only that side, but that would alienate the “other” one. Is it worth it? Only the devs know that (and their finances).

maddoctor.2738:

I see this argument a lot and it doesn’t make any sense at all. First, people say that there should be alternatives for those who don’t like the “main” way of getting the rewards, sure let’s say we agree on that. And then they say alternative methods shouldn’t be easy, but that contradicts the first point. You can’t have both, you either exclude a certain percentage of the playerbase or you make it really easy, there is no other way.

Untrue. You just make sure that different methods are aimed at different people. Some methods would require high personal skills (like Liadri, or sPvP), some would require intense time and effort commitment (armor precursor crafting mastery collections)

maddoctor.2738:

B) How do you justify excluding those who can’t reach that barrier?

By the fact that other, alternate methods exist that would allow the excluded people to reach the same goal by a different avenue – one that would fit them better.

There is a difference between excluding the playerbase and something being ‘hard’.

If the item is restricted to dungeons, you exclude 99% of the player base (according to WOW figures).
If you also add it to PvE Evolved Jungle Wurm (something far, far hard than any GW2 dungeon since it fails 90% of the time), you bring that exclusion amount to about 50% (guess).

Isn’t that better?

maddoctor.2738:

keth.1836:

Secondly, who said anything about other methods of sourcing the gear should be easy?
Don’t put words into peoples mouths.

I see this argument a lot and it doesn’t make any sense at all. First, people say that there should be alternatives for those who don’t like the “main” way of getting the rewards, sure let’s say we agree on that. And then they say alternative methods shouldn’t be easy, but that contradicts the first point. You can’t have both, you either exclude a certain percentage of the playerbase or you make it really easy, there is no other way.

So choose which is it, alternative methods are easy or you exclude people? You can choose to have both to a certain degree, but then comes the next 2 questions:

A) Where do you put the barrier?
B) How do you justify excluding those who can’t reach that barrier?

Astralporing.1957:

Untrue. You just make sure that different methods are aimed at different people. Some methods would require high personal skills (like Liadri, or sPvP), some would require intense time and effort commitment (armor precursor crafting mastery collections)

Care to give examples?

By the fact that other, alternate methods exist that would allow the excluded people to reach the same goal by a different avenue – one that would fit them better.

If the alternate methods are “easy” then the whole argument of “Alternate methods shouldn’t be easy” is pointless, then it’s just a matter of players wanting the rewards handed to them without even trying.

On the other hand if the arguments is valid then it won’t be easy, so by definition it will be hard. And that hard means certain players will be excluded. And if you actually exclude players then I was asking the simple question, how do you justify excluding them?

So which is it?

keth.1836:

There is a difference between excluding the playerbase and something being ‘hard’.
If the item is restricted to dungeons, you exclude 99% of the player base (according to WOW figures).

I’d like to see those WOW figures that say that only 1% of the population is doing dungeons. Or even better how you come to the conclusion that only 1% of the population is doing dungeons in GW2.

If you also add it to PvE Evolved Jungle Wurm (something far, far hard than any GW2 dungeon since it fails 90% of the time), you bring that exclusion amount to about 50% (guess).
Isn’t that better?

Are you seriously saying that more players are doing the Evolved Jungle Wurn than those running dungeons? :S

Firstly, I am not a game designer. That is a job for Anet.

But you don’t have to look far. Other games have beaten this problem and avoided the elitism. I personally prefer all dungeons/raid to have a solo mode. No easier than a group version. but scaled for one person, but just something for the casuals who don’t have ten friends online all the time to form a group etc.

There are also things you could do with the world bosses idea.

The possibilities are endless really. I don’t see the problem.

The better question is why are you so determined to keep the best rewards to the play style you like? eh?

maddoctor.2738:

keth.1836:

Alternative, not easier.

Why do you need an alternative if it’s going to be the same difficulty? If you can’t earn a reward because it’s too hard for you, then you are asking for a method that is easier so you can do it.

I’d also like a couple of examples of those alternative methods. You are saying “not easier”, so let’s say we are talking about Legendary Armor Precursors that drop only in the Raid. How would you make them available in a alternative way that is also the same difficulty as the Raid? I’m curious to see what you consider alternative but same difficulty to the raid.

If you want to see WOW’s figures, then google it. Google is your friend. Or further up in this thread, someone gave more details.

I think more players tried it once, sure. It’s harder than any gw2 dungeon with stupidly less rewards, so less players probably repeat it regularly.
But, no group is required, which makes it available to everyone and not just the professionals who always have ten friends online.

maddoctor.2738:

keth.1836:

There is a difference between excluding the playerbase and something being ‘hard’.
If the item is restricted to dungeons, you exclude 99% of the player base (according to WOW figures).

I’d like to see those WOW figures that say that only 1% of the population is doing dungeons. Or even better how you come to the conclusion that only 1% of the population is doing dungeons in GW2.

If you also add it to PvE Evolved Jungle Wurm (something far, far hard than any GW2 dungeon since it fails 90% of the time), you bring that exclusion amount to about 50% (guess).
Isn’t that better?

Are you seriously saying that more players are doing the Evolved Jungle Wurn than those running dungeons? :S

keth.1836:

The better question is why are you so determined to keep the best rewards to the play style you like? eh?

A solo raid isn’t a raid… and it didn’t answer the question of alternative difficulty. You are saying you don’t want the alternative method to be easier yet you are asking for it to be soloable. How is that not easier?

keth.1836:

If you want to see WOW’s figures, then google it. Google is your friend. Or further up in this thread, someone gave more details.

I think you are mistaking dungeons with raids, they are different things.

https://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/3obl9x/gw2_raids_endgame_casualpro/

My opinion is that there is no dialogue, and anet can’t cater both kinds of players, casual and raid-fans.
This whole thread and the similar others just prove it, it’s a cycle of the same reasons..

I think that with raids devs have already chosen the latter.

All can be replaced by Pvp and WvW. Pvp and Wvw are by definition hard(unpredictable) if you take away the ability of players to set up arenas for cheating.
High level Fractals are maybe not hard for elite gamers but for anyone else. Add a reasonable drop chance for legendary armor at levlels 90+ as soon as they are on and we´re golden.

Replacing raids with “content that is very similar to raids” is no solution. I have no problem with them making Legendary Armor available via those methods, but there still need to be alternatives for those players for whom “things that are similar to raids” is the problem, that want more flexibility of time and challenge.

Why do you need an alternative if it’s going to be the same difficulty? If you can’t earn a reward because it’s too hard for you, then you are asking for a method that is easier so you can do it.

Because difficulty is not a strictly linear process. Take the classic SATs, for example, it’s generally considered tricky to get a 1600 on them, but an 800 is easy enough, but getting an 800 in math OR language would be almost as tricky as getting a 1600, depending on how your brain is wired, or it could be very simple. There’s also the “pulley” principle, that doing a task that is stressful, but quick, can balance out against performing the task in a lower stress manner, over a longer period of time, similar to using a single pulley to pull a rope 5ft and lift a heavy block 5ft, or to use additional pulleys to pull the rope 10ft to lift the block 5ft, but requiring less physical strength to do so.

So alternate methods are not necessarily “easier,” they just redistribute the complications. Maybe someone is incapable of scheduling a single block of two+ hours to run a raid. So perhaps instead of running one two hour experience, he runs five or six half-hour experiences, and achieves the same result over longer time. Or perhaps a player is incapable of twitch gameplay, cannot dodge tells or dash for falling lightning or whatever the twitchy aspects of the raid may be, so maybe he does some other type of content that is lower engagement, but takes a great deal longer to offer the same level of reward. It may sound “easier” to you, but if you’re capable of doing it the “hard” way then that would provide a MUCH more efficient route to the goal. It is not “easier” in the sense that he would be able to reach the goal in less time than you could, or with less time spent playing.

If there is a building, and the entrance is 20ft off the ground level, and you can reach that entrance by either climbing a 24-step staircase, OR by taking a multi-switchback 240ft length ramp, which would you prefer to use? I’d take the stairs myself, but I’m sure someone in a wheelchair or just with poor leg strength/balance might appreciate the option of the ramp. His taking the ramp does not invalidate you taking the stairs, and it is not “easier” for him, or for you.

That doesn’t give an alternative for the Legendary Armor Precursors or other exclusive skins.

No, but I think we’ve already well explored my position on that.

AH, I see what the problem is. You think because something requires a party, it’s harder, lol.

As I said, the EJW completely disproves that theory. Content is as hard as Anet makes it, regardless of the play style it requires.

Whether I understand the difference between raids and dungeons is irreverent. This is about play styles and why one play style should hog all the very top armour. All classes, all races, all tiers and all colours. They want it all.

Don’t we have a word for that?.

maddoctor.2738:

keth.1836:

The better question is why are you so determined to keep the best rewards to the play style you like? eh?

A solo raid isn’t a raid… and it didn’t answer the question of alternative difficulty. You are saying you don’t want the alternative method to be easier yet you are asking for it to be soloable. How is that not easier?

keth.1836:

If you want to see WOW’s figures, then google it. Google is your friend. Or further up in this thread, someone gave more details.

I think you are mistaking dungeons with raids, they are different things.

Ohoni.6057:

Replacing raids with “content that is very similar to raids” is no solution.

Then why say that “alternatives shouldn’t be easier” if all you want is an easier way of getting the rewards?

So alternate methods are not necessarily “easier,” they just redistribute the complications.

For the time requirement, it’s already confirmed that there are raid locks that let you do smaller runs. Also, different wings are accessible without the requirement to be beat in some order, so time requirements shouldn’t be insane in the raid (provided you don’t wipe too much). Even the Vale Guardian battle didn’t take that long, so it all comes down to how many of those are there per wing.

For the twitch gameplay part, that’s why they are adding roles to the raid. Different roles need different player skills (not character). A pre-made raid team will have all the roles set before entering so players with different capabilities can still participate.

And the “time” argument is invalid. How do you quantify time? If a reward takes 1 hour playing a hard raid, how many hours will it take chest farming in SW?

When someone says “alternatives shouldn’t be easier”, it means easier than what? Easier than the other method? Everything you said is making it easier than the other method. Those are all just making it easier though. And when someone tells you, you just want things handed to you, you complain yet that’s what you are saying.

Make up your mind, do you want the alternative method to be easier or not?

keth.1836:

AH, I see what the problem is. You think because something requires a party, it’s harder, lol.

The EJW is an easy mode encounter, if people took the time to form proper parties before attempting it. But of course 50 random headless chickens will make any content hard, even harder than 5 headless chickens (random pugs in dungeons)

Do you know how WoW made their dungeons soloable? Let me tell you, it was with extra level caps and extra gear tiers. Once you outgear and outlevel a dungeon they become easy. So what you want here is to add increased level caps and new gear tiers to make content easier?

Wait Maddoctor are you still humoring people?

Here.

You need one.

Then why say that “alternatives shouldn’t be easier” if all you want is an easier way of getting the rewards?

Because if all I wanted was an easier way of getting the rewards, then I would have said “I want an easier way to get the rewards.” Since what I actually wanted was “alternatives that are not easier,” I asked for “alternatives that are not easier.” You’d think there was a clue buried in there somewhere, but apparently not enough of one.

For the time requirement, it’s already confirmed that there are raid locks that let you do smaller runs.

Yes, but we still have no idea what “smaller” will end up being, or even what “longer” would be. The typical player assumption is several hours straight for a longer run, and even fairly generous estimates place “shorter” runs in the hour+ range. There’s absolutely no reason to assume that the minimum times will fall within the average player’s availability range.

It’s true that they might, and if so then things will work out for a lot of people, but that doesn’t mean there’s no reason to discuss contingencies. WP just did a video that outlined some of the direct hassles involved in running the existing raid.

Even the Vale Guardian battle didn’t take that long, so it all comes down to how many of those are there per wing.

I haven’t actually heard a straight answer on this one, how long does the current Vale wing take assuming everyone gets it right the first time? I know the final boss takes something like eight minutes, but how long does the run-up to that take? And would just beating the Vale Guardian represent a milestone, where if the team did that, they could all wander off and go about their business, and hop to the next part at a later date?

And the “time” argument is invalid. How do you quantify time? If a reward takes 1 hour playing a hard raid, how many hours will it take chest farming in SW?

I really have to call straw man on that one, because I’ve never in my life heard someone honestly suggesting that SW chest farming should be a viable method (or at least no more viable than earning weapon Precursors by chest farming). Alternate methods should involve actual gameplay, just not concentrated “dungeon like” gameplay. It’s hard to say exactly how much time without fully understanding how much time players will need to spend in raids to earn the loot that way, or exactly which activities it would take as an alternative, but the difference should be comparable to the example I gave with the stairs or the ramp, the stairs should take more effort but over a shorter period of time, the ramp less effort over longer, but not preposterously longer because it does still take effort.

The real deal-breaker in these sorts of discussions is this notion raiders have that raids represent content magnitudes more deserving than any other content, that raids are suuuuuuch special snowflakes that no other content can possibly compare to it, and no players who don’t raid can possibly compare to how awesome raiders are. Raiding is just another type of content. It has it’s own challenges, but it’s not that special. Adjust your expectations accordingly.

Make up your mind, do you want the alternative method to be easier or not?

Not. I want it to be the same level of overall difficulty, I just want the method of difficulty to adapt to a variety of options. The difficulty of a raid is made up of numerous components, things like “concentrated free time,” “accumulating a group of skilled players,” “coordinating with those players,” “individual performance,” etc. I’m asking for alternatives that remove some of those, and replace them with challenges of equal value, such as “more repetitions of the content,” or “more time spent overall on the pursuit.” If you see difficulty as only one type of thing, then maybe to you it will seem easier, but that’s just your own perceptual bias at play. In actuality, the difficulty can be maintained, or even made more difficult through the alternatives.

Ohoni.6057:

Because if all I wanted was an easier way of getting the rewards, then I would have said “I want an easier way to get the rewards.” Since what I actually wanted was “alternatives that are not easier,” I asked for “alternatives that are not easier.” You’d think there was a clue buried in there somewhere, but apparently not enough of one.

Yes. It’s clear that what you are saying is contradicting what you want. You are saying you want “alternatives that are not easier” but what you are saying afterwards is “I want an easier way to get the rewards”. Make up your mind.

Alternate methods should involve actual gameplay, just not concentrated “dungeon like” gameplay.

Like?

Not. I want it to be the same level of overall difficulty, I just want the method of difficulty to adapt to a variety of options.

No you don’t. You made that clear already. You just want rewards handed to you using the path of least effort. You don’t want variety, you don’t want alternatives. You only want to get the reward “now” without putting any kind of effort.

Oh and “more repetitions of the content,” or “more time spent overall on the pursuit" are not “challenge”.

maddoctor.2738:

No you don’t. You made that clear already. You just want rewards handed to you using the path of least effort. You don’t want variety, you don’t want alternatives. You only want to get the reward “now” without putting any kind of effort.

Oh and “more repetitions of the content,” or “more time spent overall on the pursuit" are not “challenge”.

No, that’s simply cheap generalizing of an opinion that doesn’t fit into your raid-clouded mindset and thus is too outlandish to comphrenend.

Blizzard themselves said that WoW was highly successfully because it is more accessible than Everquest 1. You require less time to play WoW, while in Everquest 1, you even have to spend time getting food so that your character would not decease. It’s not raids that made WoW successful.

I had thought that Guild wars 2 will be a step forward in the evolution, by not having raids entirely. However, HOT will be a step backward, containing mostly of grindy stuff and raids. What a disappointment!

Look at what Everquest Next developers said this year:
“However, when we’re choosing what new games to make we’re focused on games with shorter average session lengths. Why? Because that’s the way the gaming world has evolved and we need to adapt. That’s precisely why we aimed so high on Everquest Next. We know we needed to change our aim on these games. We can’t just expect our users to want to grind through an epic 8 hour raid encounter or treat these games like it’s a second job. We need to make sure our games are just as fun in smaller time increments.”

These are the experts. It seems that Everquest Next will what GW2 failed to be. I will postpone the purchase of HOT to see if Anet eventually makes raids more accessible to people who will play GW2 an hour a time. If they don’t do that before Everquest Next is released, I will consider switching over to Everquest Next. In the mean while, I will just purchase Starcraft ii: Legacy of the Void. It is infinitely more challenging than raids, without requiring people to treat it as a second job.

By the way, I think NCsoft, instead of Anet, is to blame for HOT. NCSoft made Anet lose two of the three co-founders, and many key people left Anet after NCSoft acquired Anet.

Mahou.3924:

maddoctor.2738:

No you don’t. You made that clear already. You just want rewards handed to you using the path of least effort. You don’t want variety, you don’t want alternatives. You only want to get the reward “now” without putting any kind of effort.

Oh and “more repetitions of the content,” or “more time spent overall on the pursuit" are not “challenge”.

No, that’s simply cheap generalizing of an opinion that doesn’t fit into your raid-clouded mindset and thus is too outlandish to comphrenend.

If you actually read the post I quoted then it’s hardly a generalization, it’s what is written there.

HoT contains ONLY raids confirmed.

“Raids excludes players, and it’s ok.”………………

Actually, no I don’t think it’s OK.

maddoctor.2738:

Astralporing.1957:

Untrue. You just make sure that different methods are aimed at different people. Some methods would require high personal skills (like Liadri, or sPvP), some would require intense time and effort commitment (armor precursor crafting mastery collections)

Care to give examples?

…read what i posted again, i already did.

maddoctor.2738:

By the fact that other, alternate methods exist that would allow the excluded people to reach the same goal by a different avenue – one that would fit them better.

If the alternate methods are “easy” then the whole argument of “Alternate methods shouldn’t be easy” is pointless, then it’s just a matter of players wanting the rewards handed to them without even trying.

On the other hand if the arguments is valid then it won’t be easy, so by definition it will be hard. And that hard means certain players will be excluded. And if you actually exclude players then I was asking the simple question, how do you justify excluding them?

So which is it?

Neither.

People excluded from doing raids (because they don’t have gear, don’t have enough friends interested in doing them, or don’t have enough time, or because it’s the kind of content that is simply not appealing to them) may be able to reach the same reward goal by pursuing other avenues, that will have different requirements.

Some would require bigger personal skill level (exclusion by skill – i.e sPvP related, or by completing high personal skill requirement pve content – think Liadri, can be harder if you think Liadri wasn’t enough) but would not require grouping, or prescheduling time in advance, other would require greater time, effort and wealth investment (armor precursor crafting mastery collections) but would allow that time to be spread over larger period, and would not exclude based on personal skill. The goal would be to make the group of people unable to do any of those as small as possible.

Yes, obviously there would be people that would find other avenues easier than raiding. That doesn’t mean they would be easy. Also, remember, there would be people that would think it’s raids that are the easiest option.

Astralporing.1957:

Neither. People excluded from doing raids (because they don’t have gear, don’t have enough friends interested in doing them, or don’t have enough time, or because it’s the kind of content that is simply not appealing to them)

You left out people for whom raiding is against their religion.. Can’t believe you would be so exclusionist..

If you don’t like raiding, are so abrasive that any choice of 9 people cannot stand to be near you, have multiple more pressing real life commitments and haven’t bothered in months to log in then you might not be the target of raids.. Get a grip..

Coulter.2315:

Astralporing.1957:

Neither. People excluded from doing raids (because they don’t have gear, don’t have enough friends interested in doing them, or don’t have enough time, or because it’s the kind of content that is simply not appealing to them)

You left out people for whom raiding is against their religion..

Er, what? What in “content that is simply not appealing for them” you didn’t understand?

Coulter.2315:

If you don’t like raiding, are so abrasive that any choice of 9 people cannot stand to be near you, have multiple more pressing real life commitments and haven’t bothered in months to log in then you might not be the target of raids.. Get a grip..

That’s a good strawman, keep building.

I like gw2, i am 2 and a half months customer, never played it before, only beta…
I find no reason why dungeons or raids shouldn’t exist in gw2. But at the same time I love the way high tir item are implemented to date (crafting and world drop). I mean, when and if raids enter the game, devs must NOT ditch crafting, or world drops… They should give something different to the raids, not to conflict with the rest of the world.
In the other hand, I played lots of raids in other mmos and these ones I dont like… it was beta and it will take some time before Anet will add them into the game, but from what I ve seen, I exclude my self from raids HAHAHA. Not raids will exclude ME… lol

I told them that in the feedback survey, that I didnt liked the way the raid was given to us… the bosses, etc…

Anet is a very talanted studio making beautiful worlds and maps… but why they so greatly fail in raids and dungeons.. hehehehe Maybe its the founding, or they dont care much about raids and dugeons. Fractals are away to much better than the raid I played.

I could tell you what I didnt liked in the raid I played…

Astralporing.1957:

Coulter.2315:

Astralporing.1957:

Neither. People excluded from doing raids (because they don’t have gear, don’t have enough friends interested in doing them, or don’t have enough time, or because it’s the kind of content that is simply not appealing to them)

You left out people for whom raiding is against their religion..

Er, what? What in “content that is simply not appealing for them” you didn’t understand?

Coulter.2315:

If you don’t like raiding, are so abrasive that any choice of 9 people cannot stand to be near you, have multiple more pressing real life commitments and haven’t bothered in months to log in then you might not be the target of raids.. Get a grip..

That’s a good strawman, keep building.

You don’t know what a strawman is… You JUST used those definitions of people IN YOUR ARGUMENT.

Coulter.2315:

You don’t know what a strawman is… You JUST used those definitions of people IN YOUR ARGUMENT.

of the four statements used by you only one (the first) comes from my post. Three remaining ones are yours alone.

It’s good to know however, that you need to misrepresent my statements to argue with me. It means you can’t really refute my points.

Astralporing.1957:

Coulter.2315:

You don’t know what a strawman is… You JUST used those definitions of people IN YOUR ARGUMENT.

of the four statements used by you only one (the first) comes from my post. Three remaining ones are yours alone.

It’s good to know however, that you need to misrepresent my statements to argue with me. It means you can’t really refute my points.

Here is what you wrote;

“because they don’t have gear, don’t have enough friends interested in doing them, or don’t have enough time, or because it’s the kind of content that is simply not appealing to them”

1) Ascended Gear is easy to get except Armour which contributes +20 Primary stat and +16 Secondary stat.

2) If you can’t be nice to 9 other people and them like you enough to spend some time raiding then you have more pressing concerns than raiding.

3) If you don’t have enough time then you clearly have more pressing concerns than raiding.

4) If you don’t like raiding, don’t raid.

You are just empty. You are a void of points, a desert of arguments, a barren place where thoughts die and nothing good shall spring from such a place – certainly not raid design anyway.

Back in CoH, the introduced a new end game. “Incarnate Powers”, that you could slowly unlock and earn.

Now, the first slot could be unlocked by anyone by going through a story once you were at level 50 (max level). The next four slots, however, required raiding. Raids to get the EXP to unlock the slots (think Masteries in this case), and to get the items needed to craft the powers to slot there. People that didn’t like to raid were cut out, and complained.

Eventually, they came up with the solution by revamping one of the areas of the game into a really wonderful piece of nastiness that makes Orr look like a joke. And there was a great storyline in it that could be done solo. You’d get the EXP and items, but slower. Not only was the story pretty awesome, but it allowed people to earn things at their own pace. Yes, there were time limits on it, you could only go so fast, but if you wanted to just jump into the game for 30 minutes or so, you could still make some progress.

Now, let’s adapt that idea to GW2. Let’s say that raids go live as planned, and for a while that’s the only path to legendary armor. Then, several months down the line, they add in a new level 80 solo-only path to every dungeon. Maybe you’re tracking down the remains of Scarlet’s forces, or some mad sylvari that’s trying to save his people by burning out parts of their minds so Mord can’t detect them. You play through them all, and at the end you get to pick one of the items you could get from a raid. Want a second item? Play through them all again, though you’ve got a weekly lockout on rewards to keep you from going nuts.

This would be a greater time investment, but a more flexible one. A lot of people would consider it less challenging, but it would also be the slower path. Raiding would get you there quickly, making it the preferred path for those that are okay with it.

I’m sure someone objects to this idea, and I look forward to hearing why.

Palador.2170:

Back in CoH, the introduced a new end game. “Incarnate Powers”, that you could slowly unlock and earn.

Now, the first slot could be unlocked by anyone by going through a story once you were at level 50 (max level). The next four slots, however, required raiding. Raids to get the EXP to unlock the slots (think Masteries in this case), and to get the items needed to craft the powers to slot there. People that didn’t like to raid were cut out, and complained.

Eventually, they came up with the solution by revamping one of the areas of the game into a really wonderful piece of nastiness that makes Orr look like a joke. And there was a great storyline in it that could be done solo. You’d get the EXP and items, but slower. Not only was the story pretty awesome, but it allowed people to earn things at their own pace. Yes, there were time limits on it, you could only go so fast, but if you wanted to just jump into the game for 30 minutes or so, you could still make some progress.

Now, let’s adapt that idea to GW2. Let’s say that raids go live as planned, and for a while that’s the only path to legendary armor. Then, several months down the line, they add in a new level 80 solo-only path to every dungeon. Maybe you’re tracking down the remains of Scarlet’s forces, or some mad sylvari that’s trying to save his people by burning out parts of their minds so Mord can’t detect them. You play through them all, and at the end you get to pick one of the items you could get from a raid. Want a second item? Play through them all again, though you’ve got a weekly lockout on rewards to keep you from going nuts.

This would be a greater time investment, but a more flexible one. A lot of people would consider it less challenging, but it would also be the slower path. Raiding would get you there quickly, making it the preferred path for those that are okay with it.

I’m sure someone objects to this idea, and I look forward to hearing why.

I remember the incarnate system pretty well, but the major difference between the incarnate system and raid gear is that the incarnate system added very real mechanical power to characters.

The thing is, GW2 is a different animal. It’s not a game about constantly chasing the gear (or enhancement set) treadmill, so its rewards really do thrive on what they represent moreso than what they do functionally.

I’d be all for some kind of “hardcore solo” dungeons here and there, but the thing is, they already built that system in to the living story. They could simply add “while solo” to challenge achievements, and done.

That said, it seems just… inappropriate with the way GW2’s loot is modeled. Like, giving out AC armor for beating CoF. That gear is statistically equivalent, but its value is largely cosmetic can as a trophy. The same goes for the WvW and PvP skins, etc.

Anet’s stance (which I agree with) is that you shouldn’t have to have a less powerful character because you didn’t do some instance a million times. They need to add legendary armor precursors to the larger game, and I assume they will do so through masteries. However, it doesn’t fit anet’s pattern or the structure of GW2 to make the same legendary precursor set that comes from a piece of challenging content also pop up through crafting or open world farming or masteries.

They’ve done this is a “soft” manner with fractals already, and they’re hardening up on that model with the new l100 fractals and their legendary backpack.

Yes. It’s clear that what you are saying is contradicting what you want. You are saying you want “alternatives that are not easier” but what you are saying afterwards is “I want an easier way to get the rewards”. Make up your mind.

I have made up my mind. My mind is that I want “alternatives that are not easier.” As for what goes on in your mind, I have no control or responsibility.

No you don’t. You made that clear already. You just want rewards handed to you using the path of least effort.

I want raids to be the path of least effort, but I want other paths too.

You only want to get the reward “now” without putting any kind of effort.

What part of “all the alternative paths should take longer” translates to “I want it now” to you?

Oh and “more repetitions of the content,” or “more time spent overall on the pursuit" are not “challenge”.

Of course they are. Challenge is an obstacle in the path to your goal. Time is an obstacle. Something taking longer than something else makes it more challenging. There are other ways to add challenge, but that is still one way.

That’s a good strawman, keep building.

Hey, he’s still grinding away at that Snowslide Ravine Heart Quest.

Now, let’s adapt that idea to GW2. Let’s say that raids go live as planned, and for a while that’s the only path to legendary armor. Then, several months down the line, they add in a new level 80 solo-only path to every dungeon. Maybe you’re tracking down the remains of Scarlet’s forces, or some mad sylvari that’s trying to save his people by burning out parts of their minds so Mord can’t detect them. You play through them all, and at the end you get to pick one of the items you could get from a raid. Want a second item? Play through them all again, though you’ve got a weekly lockout on rewards to keep you from going nuts.

I have no problem with the idea of taking longer overall to earn the rewards, but two things bother me about the specifics. First, “solo dungeons” tend to take a while to complete each run, and part of the problem we’re trying to avoid is forcing too much “concentrated time.” While this could be one alternate activity, it would be preferable to have alternatives that take less time from start to finish, even if it means having to repeat it more often. The second thing is that while I don’t like “focused group content” like raids, I also don’t particularly enjoy “focused solo content” like story missions or solo dungeons.

The absolute “killer app” about GW2, the thing that it does far and away better than any other game in history, is it’s “drop in, drop out” multiplayer content, that you can be playing the game, someone else can come along, they can help you do what you’re doing, you both get full credit, and either of you can move on as you see fit. That is a thing of beauty that even GW2’s nearest competitors only manage to fumble with. That is the sort of content I want as alternatives, content in which you don’t do it solo, although you can if nobody happens to be around, but ideally people would be coming and going the entire time you’re working at it, contributing as they see fit without feeling obligation to do anything.

From another thread but I think its important everyone sees how Ohoni thinks, do not let him influence raid design. He doesn’t give a kitten about raiding.

Ohoni.6057:

I agree that there should be multiple difficulty tiers, but the lower tier needs to also offer Legendary Precursor armor. That’s the entire point of the raid for most players who honestly couldn’t give a kitten about raiding otherwise.

Coulter.2315:

From another thread but I think its important everyone sees how Ohoni thinks, do not let him influence raid design. He doesn’t give a kitten about raiding.

A lot of so-called raiders don’t actually care about raids, either. They care about being “better” than others, or getting loot faster. Give them a challenge with poor loot, or a way to bypass it entirely to get the loot, and watch what happens. They’ll face it once or twice, then avoid it at all costs.

I’m not going to say that I agree with Ohoni, but it would be foolish to just dismiss the input they’re providing without looking it over and thinking about it.

Palador.2170:

Coulter.2315:

From another thread but I think its important everyone sees how Ohoni thinks, do not let him influence raid design. He doesn’t give a kitten about raiding.

A lot of so-called raiders don’t actually care about raids, either. They care about being “better” than others, or getting loot faster. Give them a challenge with poor loot, or a way to bypass it entirely to get the loot, and watch what happens. They’ll face it once or twice, then avoid it at all costs.

I’m not going to say that I agree with Ohoni, but it would be foolish to just dismiss the input they’re providing without looking it over and thinking about it.

Of course, the reward should correspond to the effort. A player farming for 10000 hours in silver waste can’t even compare to 1% of the effort beating a difficult raid. The reward should be at least a thousand times better.

Palador.2170:

A lot of so-called raiders don’t actually care about raids, either. They care about being “better” than others, or getting loot faster. Give them a challenge with poor loot, or a way to bypass it entirely to get the loot, and watch what happens. They’ll face it once or twice, then avoid it at all costs.

This applies literally to everything.

BaconofPigs.1683:

Of course, the reward should correspond to the effort. A player farming for 10000 hours in silver waste can’t even compare to 1% of the effort beating a difficult raid. The reward should be at least a thousand times better.

I think you vastly over-estimate the challenge ANet will be able to present in raids, and are going to be very disappointed.

(Disclaimer: I’ve never actually farmed SW, so I don’t really know how hard it is. When I go there, I got there to kill kittens and do stories.)

Coulter.2315:

From another thread but I think its important everyone sees how Ohoni thinks, do not let him influence raid design. He doesn’t give a kitten about raiding.

Ohoni.6057:

I agree that there should be multiple difficulty tiers, but the lower tier needs to also offer Legendary Precursor armor. That’s the entire point of the raid for most players who honestly couldn’t give a kitten about raiding otherwise.

No, he doesn’t care about raids themselves. I’ve been reading and not commenting but what he repeatedly says is what he “gives a kitten” about is how the rewards are handled in game and how people are excluded from getting them by narrow game designs.

TheRandomGuy.7246:

Palador.2170:

A lot of so-called raiders don’t actually care about raids, either. They care about being “better” than others, or getting loot faster. Give them a challenge with poor loot, or a way to bypass it entirely to get the loot, and watch what happens. They’ll face it once or twice, then avoid it at all costs.

This applies literally to everything.

Not everything, but MMOs do tend to encourage it. It doesn’t change the fact that not all people supporting raids really care about making good raids, though. They care about getting what they want, and see raids as a way to get it.

A-Net creates challenging content after 3 years of the same easy and boring dungeons and all the casuals throw a tantrum because they can’t beat completely optional content without working for it. What a surprise.

The rewards and their ends goals are legendary items. Legendary. Go look up that word. When you do look it up consider what a player should be able to do to obtain such an item. Logically also it would seem normal for a player worthy of such an item to have the tier below it and work for it.

Whats next, would you like titles without working for them too?

From another thread but I think its important everyone sees how Ohoni thinks, do not let him influence raid design. He doesn’t give a kitten about raiding.

I’ve been quite up front about that. To me, raids are something I might want to do once, just to experience the story elements, but they aren’t likely something I would want to do repeatedly, there are numerous “red flags” about raiding in general that just do not interest me.

But, at the moment, it seems that Legendary Precursor armor will only be available via raids, which means I may have to raid if I want access to it, which means I have to engage in discussions about how raiding should be. If you don’t want me to be a part of the conversation, then there is a fairly simple solution, help to advocate alternative options for earning Precursor armor outside of raids, so that I’d no longer have any reason to bother with them, then you can make raids whatever you want them to be. You can’t eat your cake and have it too.

(Disclaimer: I’ve never actually farmed SW, so I don’t really know how hard it is. When I go there, I got there to kill kittens and do stories.)

“Farming Silverwastes” is the goto strawman for people who don’t actually believe they can fairly engage what the other person is saying. It’s basically the equivalent to saying “I have no valid position, so you are a poopy head.”

The rewards and their ends goals are legendary items. Legendary. Go look up that word. When you do look it up consider what a player should be able to do to obtain such an item.

It’s an arbitrary term. “Exotic” items are common as dirt and more often than not broken down for parts. Current legendaires have nothing “legendary” about them, and nor will the new ones.

Ohoni.6057:

If you don’t want me to be a part of the conversation, then there is a fairly simple solution, help to advocate alternative options for earning Precursor armor outside of raids, so that I’d no longer have any reason to bother with them, then you can make raids whatever you want them to be. You can’t eat your cake and have it too.

Is that a threat that you are saying you will create trolling and flaming posts if your demands are not met? You’re trying to blackmail the devs or forum posters, aren’t you?

You just want an easier options. Alternate means easier period. In a finite set with an ordering where elements are unique, maximality implies uniqueness of such maximal element. The raids are set to be the maximal difficulty. Any other options are by default easier options. There is no such thing as “alternate but not easier” options. Hence, by demanding “alternate options” whether you include “easier” or “not easier” it doesn’t matter, it would have to be easier.

Palador.2170:

A lot of so-called raiders don’t actually care about raids, either. They care about being “better” than others, or getting loot faster. Give them a challenge with poor loot, or a way to bypass it entirely to get the loot, and watch what happens. They’ll face it once or twice, then avoid it at all costs.

This is true. Everyone exhibits a degree of selfishness one way or another when improving their own characters. GW2 has perhaps the least selfish playerbase simply due to how the quest/loot system works, with it being cooperative rather than competitive. This is one of the distinctions we need to specifically address when it comes down to new kinds of content coming into the game, and whether or not it will really cause a split in the community. Some people blow this extremely out of proportion in either direction, and oft will repeat the same circular reasoning back and forth forever.

Is that a threat that you are saying you will create trolling and flaming posts if your demands are not met? You’re trying to blackmail the devs or forum posters, aren’t you?

No, I’m saying that I have legitimate interests in the game, and they aren’t necessarily in conflict with yours. So long as I’m allowed to not raid, while still being able to advance towards earning Legendary Precursors, then I have no reason to comment on raiding, it can do whatever it wants.

If raiding becomes an obstacle between me and my goals, however, then I will press as hard as I can for changes that will make raiding more enjoyable to me. That is not a threat, it is a statement of fact, and it’s not trolling, it’s pursuing my legitimate interests in improving the game. That your interests are not my interests does not make it “trolling.”

Ohoni.6057:

No, I’m saying that I have legitimate interests in the game, and they aren’t necessarily in conflict with yours. So long as I’m allowed to not raid, while still being able to advance towards earning Legendary Precursors, then I have no reason to comment on raiding, it can do whatever it wants.

I’m sure if you compete in World Tournament Series pvp after HoT comes out and earn world first or second place in the pvp tournament, they’ll hand you a full legendary armor set. No need for the precursor. There you go, alternate but not necessarily easier.

Or you can just do the content as they are intended for the players to do and earn the proper reward

I’m sure if you compete in World Tournament Series pvp after HoT comes out and earn world first or second place in the pvp tournament, they’ll hand you a full legendary armor set.

It’s possible, but that isn’t something I’m likely to do either, so it’s a rather moot point.

Or you can just do the content as they are intended for the players to do and earn the proper reward

Or I can continue to push for alternatives until they are provided. At the moment, that seems to be the better solution for me, but you’re free to pursue any solution you choose.

Ohoni.6057:

Or I can continue to push for alternatives until they are provided. At the moment, that seems to be the better solution for me, but you’re free to pursue any solution you choose.

You may continue to push for alternatives but purposely misrepresenting information is considered as trolling. Like you said that exotic were end game equipment. The tier itself never was considered end game as of November 16, 2012. And the infamous “promise of no vertical progression” that as well is misrepresenting the game.

Also any other alternatives would be considered as giving out something Legendary as undeserving rewards. You can’t have the cake and eat it too.

Just a friendly touch of reality to you just in case you were one of those who believed that ascended weapons/armor wouldn’t come after the rings came out on November 2012, exclusivity rewards have always been a thing in both Guild Wars 1 and Guild Wars 2:

No one is excluded to anything unless they don’t play the proper content

This has been the philosophy of Anet. The majority of forum posters agree with this philosophy – remember the RP explosion when the original flamekiss armor was release? It’s good for the game.

Freebies and undeserving rewards are bad for the game.

You may continue to push for alternatives but purposely misrepresenting information is considered as trolling.

Ok, but I’m not doing that, so it isn’t really relevant to anything.

Like you said that exotic were end game equipment. The tier itself never was considered end game as of November 16, 2012. And the infamous “promise of no vertical progression” that as well is misrepresenting the game.

Actually, I didn’t. I said it was " sort of endgame equipment, in that it’s not available until the last 10-15 levels," which is factually correct. I also pointed out that it was the highest level gear for the first full year of the game, which is also true, so it was as close to “endgame gear” as the game had up to that point.

And the infamous “promise of no vertical progression” that as well is misrepresenting the game.

Yes, but that’s on ANet’s part, not on mine, so unless you’re accusing them of trolling, I would just let it go.

Also any other alternatives would be considered as giving out something Legendary as undeserving rewards. You can’t have the cake and eat it too.

Again, you throw around the term “undeserving” as if there is a “deserving” to be had. Nobody in this game “deserves” anything, they all just get what they get because of choices ANet made. If ANet changes their mind as to who gets what, then those people are equally as “deserving” of those rewards as anyone else.

It’s like how at first the only way to get Ascended Rings was via Fractals, but then also added them to Laurel merchants, and WvW and PvP loot crates, as well as story chapters. Are the people who earn them via these methods “undeserving” of having them? No, they are fully deserving because those are not valid methods of acquiring them.

They have already altered the deal, pray they do not alter it any further.

But don’t whine about it if they do.

Kevan.8912:

https://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/3obl9x/gw2_raids_endgame_casualpro/

My opinion is that there is no dialogue, and anet can’t cater both kinds of players, casual and raid-fans.
This whole thread and the similar others just prove it, it’s a cycle of the same reasons..

I think that with raids devs have already chosen the latter.

If they made rewards sellable, it would cater too more people though. They did this in Guild Wars 1 with almost every single end game item, including tormented weapons, and I don’t really see why it can’t be done here.