Guild Wars 2

Problem stems back to; what is the reward for a raid?

Specific armor skins/weapons ?
This is already catered to by dungeons / pvp rewards
Specific weapon skins
This is already catered too by Fractals (and the rewards here are complained at by most)

So what is the purpose for the raid? Simply difficult content with no reward?

Maybe a new currency to buy X (New currency ideas alrdy are hated)

Maybe specific materials to craft a very special legendary weapon? But then that means you’re doing more than just raiding.. which I guess the raiders dont want..

They’d be better off imo, improving Fractals. Increasing the amount/difficulty/scales/rewards rather than working on raids.

Would love to see some content for bigger groups for 10-20 man.
Maby give every dungeon a raid path also or maby make the harderst path a raid path.

Crystallize.8603:

So what is the purpose for the raid? Simply difficult content with no reward?

Maybe a new currency to buy X (New currency ideas alrdy are hated)

Maybe specific materials to craft a very special legendary weapon? But then that means you’re doing more than just raiding.. which I guess the raiders dont want..

They’d be better off imo, improving Fractals. Increasing the amount/difficulty/scales/rewards rather than working on raids.

We literally had hundreds of posts discussing this in the CDI. You could perhaps start there and educate yourself about the types of things people want rather than setting up and knocking down strawmen.

For my part, I suggested raids would allow players to upgrade Ascended armor into stat-switchable Legendary armor. Perhaps later raids would allow Legendary armor pieces to be upgraded and then usable across armor classes as well.

This is just one of many ideas.

Gustavef.6730:

It is not being afraid. It is business. Why make content that only 10 to 25% of the user base can play if it does not generate any new revenue? With out having a monthly fee, the whole “I will leave this game” is a hollow threat to ANet.

As there are full-fledged MMOs that could have been pitched successfully on the basis of a potential audience 10 to 25% of the size of this game’s, I’ll assume you’re missing some decimal points.

Aside from that, there are three problems with your claim:

1. Those 2% of players are also going to be doing things like creating guides, streaming their work, maintaining community resources like wikis and guides, and so on. These are beneficial to the game as a whole and also help to attract new players, which means the business case for raids is better than you think.
2. Raids don’t have to be a “no casuals” club of elitism that excludes virtually the whole player base.
3. IIRC, statistics like 2% refer to the proportion of the player base that clears the top raid available before it ceases to be current (this is roughly the correct figure for FFXIV, at least). The proportion of the player base that will attempt the raids and thus benefit from their inclusion is far higher.

timmyf.1490:

Crystallize.8603:

So what is the purpose for the raid? Simply difficult content with no reward?

Maybe a new currency to buy X (New currency ideas alrdy are hated)

Maybe specific materials to craft a very special legendary weapon? But then that means you’re doing more than just raiding.. which I guess the raiders dont want..

They’d be better off imo, improving Fractals. Increasing the amount/difficulty/scales/rewards rather than working on raids.

We literally had hundreds of posts discussing this in the CDI. You could perhaps start there and educate yourself about the types of things people want rather than setting up and knocking down strawmen.

You might read that CDI yourself. If you did, you’d see that rewards and exclusivity/inclusivity were the biggest contention points, and not only between raiders and nonraiders, but also between people that have differing visions of raids in GW2. There was no consensus on that point at all – and thus the question “what is the purpose of raids” is still valid and unanswered.

evilunderling.9265:

1. IIRC, statistics like 2% refer to the proportion of the player base that clears the top raid available before it ceases to be current (this is roughly the correct figure for FFXIV, at least). The proportion of the player base that will attempt the raids and thus benefit from their inclusion is far higher.

LotRO devs revealed once that the percentage number of people doing raids were in the (low) single digits. Estimates from other games suggest the numbers of up to 10-15% of active population at best (most likely lower).And remember, many of those people do the raids not because they like them, but because of shinies, and would be equally satisfied with doing dungeons/fractals, so saying that they would “benefit” from them is dubious.

timmyf.1490:

Crystallize.8603:

So what is the purpose for the raid? Simply difficult content with no reward?

Maybe a new currency to buy X (New currency ideas alrdy are hated)

Maybe specific materials to craft a very special legendary weapon? But then that means you’re doing more than just raiding.. which I guess the raiders dont want..

They’d be better off imo, improving Fractals. Increasing the amount/difficulty/scales/rewards rather than working on raids.

We literally had hundreds of posts discussing this in the CDI. You could perhaps start there and educate yourself about the types of things people want rather than setting up and knocking down strawmen.

For my part, I suggested raids would allow players to upgrade Ascended armor into stat-switchable Legendary armor. Perhaps later raids would allow Legendary armor pieces to be upgraded and then usable across armor classes as well.

This is just one of many ideas.

My apologies for having missed those posts. I tend to focus on other areas of the forum in the limited time available to me and therefore can’t edumacate myself to your standard.

I however am allowed to express my own opinion and what in my opinion would be good. Sorry for contributing. I wont next time.

So instead of educating yourself on the topic you’re discussing you’re going to discard what was already discussed and then blame others for calling you out on not knowing what you’re talking about?

The reward for raids can be the same thing we get from everywhere else. New skins. This whole game is built around skins. The concept of rewarding players for completing difficult content with skins shouldn’t be too hard for people to grasp.

Astralporing.1957:

timmyf.1490:

Crystallize.8603:

So what is the purpose for the raid? Simply difficult content with no reward?

Maybe a new currency to buy X (New currency ideas alrdy are hated)

Maybe specific materials to craft a very special legendary weapon? But then that means you’re doing more than just raiding.. which I guess the raiders dont want..

They’d be better off imo, improving Fractals. Increasing the amount/difficulty/scales/rewards rather than working on raids.

We literally had hundreds of posts discussing this in the CDI. You could perhaps start there and educate yourself about the types of things people want rather than setting up and knocking down strawmen.

You might read that CDI yourself. If you did, you’d see that rewards and exclusivity/inclusivity were the biggest contention points, and not only between raiders and nonraiders, but also between people that have differing visions of raids in GW2. There was no consensus on that point at all – and thus the question “what is the purpose of raids” is still valid and unanswered.

I didn’t claim there was a consensus. I said there have been lots of ideas and gave an example.

Crystallize.8603:

timmyf.1490:

Crystallize.8603:

So what is the purpose for the raid? Simply difficult content with no reward?

Maybe a new currency to buy X (New currency ideas alrdy are hated)

Maybe specific materials to craft a very special legendary weapon? But then that means you’re doing more than just raiding.. which I guess the raiders dont want..

They’d be better off imo, improving Fractals. Increasing the amount/difficulty/scales/rewards rather than working on raids.

We literally had hundreds of posts discussing this in the CDI. You could perhaps start there and educate yourself about the types of things people want rather than setting up and knocking down strawmen.

For my part, I suggested raids would allow players to upgrade Ascended armor into stat-switchable Legendary armor. Perhaps later raids would allow Legendary armor pieces to be upgraded and then usable across armor classes as well.

This is just one of many ideas.

My apologies for having missed those posts. I tend to focus on other areas of the forum in the limited time available to me and therefore can’t edumacate myself to your standard.

I however am allowed to express my own opinion and what in my opinion would be good. Sorry for contributing. I wont next time.

Have an opinion all you want, but don’t misrepresent the opinions of others. You have this attitude (and probably unintentionally of) “I don’t see what proponents of raids could possibly want, why don’t they just do Fractals?”

Rewards are only part of it. Primarily, I would like instanced experiences larger than 5 people. 10 is a good number. Or 12. Maaaaybe 15.

I’m certain, even in your current state of edumacation, you can recognize the difference between 5- and 10-man content.

Dinks.2478:

So instead of educating yourself on the topic you’re discussing you’re going to discard what was already discussed and then blame others for calling you out on not knowing what you’re talking about?

The reward for raids can be the same thing we get from everywhere else. New skins. This whole game is built around skins. The concept of rewarding players for completing difficult content with skins shouldn’t be too hard for people to grasp.

New skins; okay but we already have methods for new skins which is simply dungeons and fractals. They are all unique skins that are rewarded for completing them.

If you deem them challenging or not, why are we getting more and more content offering basically the same reward?
Is there an actual need for content that only rewards the same as other content? Not really?

Fractals rewards:

Asc Rings
Asc Weapon Boxes
Asc Armor Boxes
Fractal Weapon Skins
Fractal Tonic

Dungeons reward:

Armor skins/full armor sets
Weapon skins/full weapon sets

EDIT Yes I can see the want for more people instances. I have played many games with more manned instances. 8man/12/24/48 But I can’t personally see how they are going to work in GW2 and why there is a need for them outside of “some” people would like them.

evilunderling.9265:

Gustavef.6730:

It is not being afraid. It is business. Why make content that only 10 to 25% of the user base can play if it does not generate any new revenue? With out having a monthly fee, the whole “I will leave this game” is a hollow threat to ANet.

As there are full-fledged MMOs that could have been pitched successfully on the basis of a potential audience 10 to 25% of the size of this game’s, I’ll assume you’re missing some decimal points.

I freely admit my numbers were SWAGs. But there exists some number N% that provides a beneficial RoI.

Aside from that, there are three problems with your claim:

1. Those 2% of players are also going to be doing things like creating guides, streaming their work, maintaining community resources like wikis and guides, and so on. These are beneficial to the game as a whole and also help to attract new players, which means the business case for raids is better than you think.
2. Raids don’t have to be a “no casuals” club of elitism that excludes virtually the whole player base.
3. IIRC, statistics like 2% refer to the proportion of the player base that clears the top raid available before it ceases to be current (this is roughly the correct figure for FFXIV, at least). The proportion of the player base that will attempt the raids and thus benefit from their inclusion is far higher.

I do not disagree with any of those points. Instanced Raids can be made that would be beneficial to the community. Given the current acceptance/implementation of Instanced content in GW2, I not holding my breath for them here for a while.

Crystallize.8603:

EDIT Yes I can see the want for more people instances. I have played many games with more manned instances. 8man/12/24/48 But I can’t personally see how they are going to work in GW2 and why there is a need for them outside of “some” people would like them.

Well, it’d probably work like this…

• You gather in your guild hall
• You enable the raid
• People in the guild hall get a “ready up” screen
• You are transported into the raid

As far as your other comment… I can’t see why there is a need for world bosses outside of “some” people would like them. I can’t see why there is a need for PvP outside of “some” people would like them. I can’t see why there is a need for WvW outside of “some” people would like them. Ad nauseum.

It’s a game. You build content because people like it. Raids are something for guilds to do together and we’d like it. What other reason need there be?

Crystallize.8603:

Dinks.2478:

So instead of educating yourself on the topic you’re discussing you’re going to discard what was already discussed and then blame others for calling you out on not knowing what you’re talking about?

The reward for raids can be the same thing we get from everywhere else. New skins. This whole game is built around skins. The concept of rewarding players for completing difficult content with skins shouldn’t be too hard for people to grasp.

New skins; okay but we already have methods for new skins which is simply dungeons and fractals. They are all unique skins that are rewarded for completing them.

If you deem them challenging or not, why are we getting more and more content offering basically the same reward?
Is there an actual need for content that only rewards the same as other content? Not really?

Fractals rewards:

Asc Rings
Asc Weapon Boxes
Asc Armor Boxes
Fractal Weapon Skins
Fractal Tonic

Dungeons reward:

Armor skins/full armor sets
Weapon skins/full weapon sets

EDIT Yes I can see the want for more people instances. I have played many games with more manned instances. 8man/12/24/48 But I can’t personally see how they are going to work in GW2 and why there is a need for them outside of “some” people would like them.

These would obviously be new skins… How is that even a question? They would be unique rewards to the raids.

Dinks.2478:

There is zero negative drawback to adding more game options for people who want it. You don’t have to play every game mode the game offers. I know people who have never PvPed because PvP isn’t their thing. I know people who don’t PvE. I know people who don’t WvW. And just like that it is okay if you’re a person who doesn’t want to do Raids. But others do, and we have nothing else to do. There is nothing else for guilds to do.

But this is exactly the point I was trying to make earlier. Raids, per definition, are only interesting to large, organised guilds that are interested in PvE and have dedicated players that are ready to organise their life around playing that content. But how much of the GW2 population do such players represent? 5%? 10%? Creating raid content is a major undertaking for the company. I simply do not understand why Anet should allocate substantial resources to create something that probably only a small minority will experience.

green plum.7514:

Dinks.2478:

There is zero negative drawback to adding more game options for people who want it. You don’t have to play every game mode the game offers. I know people who have never PvPed because PvP isn’t their thing. I know people who don’t PvE. I know people who don’t WvW. And just like that it is okay if you’re a person who doesn’t want to do Raids. But others do, and we have nothing else to do. There is nothing else for guilds to do.

But this is exactly the point I was trying to make earlier. Raids, per definition, are only interesting to large, organised guilds that are interested in PvE and have dedicated players that are ready to organise their life around playing that content. But how much of the GW2 population do such players represent? 5%? 10%? Creating raid content is a major undertaking for the company. I simply do not understand why Anet should allocate substantial resources to create something that probably only a small minority will experience.

Because it’s something to strive for? Something to build toward over time? Something other than running in circles pressing 1 for hours?

One of the issues will be how they’re implemented. Anet has chosen not to embrace difficulty settings for content. This is supposed to keep everyone playing together, but we still see those wanting to play whatever spec they want, play dungeons as they want, and those who are zerker/meta only when checking LFG.

SWTOR has relatively good Operations participation—their version of raiding—because there are Normal, Hard, and Nightmare versions of each. Up until technical issues with the newest Ops and a huge increase in the required understanding of mechanics, instanced content and the majority of its rewards were open to all levels of players. Without the ability to adjust difficulty, instanced content here will either be faceroll and throw away, moderately difficult and satisfying for many but not enough so to warrant valuable rewards, or so difficult that most players can never touch it.

green plum.7514:

Dinks.2478:

There is zero negative drawback to adding more game options for people who want it. You don’t have to play every game mode the game offers. I know people who have never PvPed because PvP isn’t their thing. I know people who don’t PvE. I know people who don’t WvW. And just like that it is okay if you’re a person who doesn’t want to do Raids. But others do, and we have nothing else to do. There is nothing else for guilds to do.

But this is exactly the point I was trying to make earlier. Raids, per definition, are only interesting to large, organised guilds that are interested in PvE and have dedicated players that are ready to organise their life around playing that content. But how much of the GW2 population do such players represent? 5%? 10%? Creating raid content is a major undertaking for the company. I simply do not understand why Anet should allocate substantial resources to create something that probably only a small minority will experience.

10-15 player instances wouldn’t require large guilds and could still be considered raids. Heck in my last main game we had 8 man raids and 4 man groups.

Raising to 10-15 players would also do a lot to help the complaints many have about dungeons in various ways including build diversity.

green plum.7514:

But this is exactly the point I was trying to make earlier. Raids, per definition, are only interesting to large, organised guilds that are interested in PvE and have dedicated players that are ready to organise their life around playing that content.

That’s been brought up already in this thread. It’s not really true, and hasn’t been for years. Easy-ish puggable raids are a thing, and have been for a while. You can also go with shorter instances and smaller groups.

FFXIV has a raid consisting of six fights, each of which takes place within the same arena and lasts less than a minute (if you take longer, the next wave of enemies spawns — after about seven minutes, the entire raid is electrocuted).

Dinks.2478:

So once again, I will repeat myself. Stop being selfish. You do your boring spam 1 world bosses and let people who want challenging group content get it.

In an ideal world. I think the fear lies in the idea that raids would take development away from other areas i.e. to give you your content means for someone else to potentially lose their content.

I’m unconvinced that ArenaNet can make fun, rewarding, and challenging instanced group content. Dungeons, as they stand now, consist of stacking in a corner while wearing zerker gear, dps racing the mobs, and running to the next corner. It’s not fun, it’s just another braindead farm.

If said raid content (assuming we’re still talking about large instances for organized groups) is actually challenging and not just another stack-fest, I’m all for it. If it’s just going to be a bigger version of the current dungeons, then I’ll probably not spend too much time there.

MattyP.6954:

Dungeons, as they stand now, consist of stacking in a corner

Except that corner stacking hasn’t been a thing for, what, a year? Are you also tired of the 4 Warrior 1 Mesmer meta? :-D

Stacking is still a thing, but using a corner or a wall isn’t really needed since the loss of a useful FGS.

Ill say it again. creating yet another game mode only serves to divide the number of players away from already established modes, and would weaken the content to the point like when we had separated servers. people flocked to one type of server and the other servers were so dismal in players that not all the content could be accomplished on certain servers due to “diversity” We all know what happened then, servers died and it all had to be revamped. when we spread ourselves out to thin, it becomes a chore to do already existing content. This game was not meant to be a traditional “Raid” type game. Adding a multitude of game modes would just serve to frustrate us in the end and lose players.

Think of it like a Pie… we have 8 slices in a normal pie, able to fully feed 8 people 1 slice. the more people you have, the thinner the slices become, and the less amount each person gets to have. eventually the slices will be small enuff to the point people will not compete for their slices and just go somewhere else to get a bigger piece of pie.

Its nothing personal against raids, its just we will spread ourselves out to far and the game will feel empty and un-enjoyable. which brings me back to why servers died…

Do you only play one game mode? I’d say most dabble in a large variety of them.

MattyP.6954:

I’m unconvinced that ArenaNet can make fun, rewarding, and challenging instanced group content. Dungeons, as they stand now, consist of stacking in a corner while wearing zerker gear, dps racing the mobs, and running to the next corner. It’s not fun, it’s just another braindead farm.

It takes significant time and effort both to learn to play a class to the level required to farm dungeons and to learn the dungeons themselves to the level required to farm them. From this, it follows that dungeon farming isn’t even remotely braindead. It also follows that it’s not a pure DPS race — if it was, then merely being good at your class would allow you to farm dungeons.

You’re basing your opinions on how dungeon runs look when the people doing the runs have done the same dungeons dozens of times before. The use of corners is a vestigial remnant from a patched exploit, and the use of zerker gear is neither here nor there.

Farming isn’t a good thing, but ultimately, all the fact that people farm dungeons in GW2 means is that there are people who are pretty happy with the gold per hour and other rewards that they get from GW2 dungeons.

CorrynnStarr.7942:

Ill say it again. creating yet another game mode only serves to divide the number of players away from already established modes, and would weaken the content to the point like when we had separated servers. people flocked to one type of server and the other servers were so dismal in players that not all the content could be accomplished on certain servers due to “diversity” We all know what happened then, servers died and it all had to be revamped. when we spread ourselves out to thin, it becomes a chore to do already existing content. This game was not meant to be a traditional “Raid” type game. Adding a multitude of game modes would just serve to frustrate us in the end and lose players.

Think of it like a Pie… we have 8 slices in a normal pie, able to fully feed 8 people 1 slice. the more people you have, the thinner the slices become, and the less amount each person gets to have. eventually the slices will be small enuff to the point people will not compete for their slices and just go somewhere else to get a bigger piece of pie.

Its nothing personal against raids, its just we will spread ourselves out to far and the game will feel empty and un-enjoyable. which brings me back to why servers died…

We better not add new maps in the Maguuma Jungle, then. It’ll just pull people away from Dry Top and Silverwastes.

Honestly, the day they add raids is the day I give serious consideration to dropping the game. I have ZERO interest in raiding the way WoW does it. I vastly prefer GW2’s current approach. The reality is those types of raids take a lot of time and effort to create – time and effort they’d have to pull from parts of the game that I personally really prefer in no small way.

DSRilk.2978:

Honestly, the day they add raids is the day I give serious consideration to dropping the game. I have ZERO interest in raiding the way WoW does it. I vastly prefer GW2’s current approach. The reality is those types of raids take a lot of time and effort to create – time and effort they’d have to pull from parts of the game that I personally really prefer in no small way.

Nobody is proposing anything with more than a superficial resemblance to the way WoW does raids. That said, please could you elaborate on what your problems with WoW raids are so that we can talk about how to address them?

CureForLiving.5360:

I think the fear lies in the idea that raids would take development away from other areas i.e. to give you your content means for someone else to potentially lose their content.

That’s not a fear, that’s the mathematical reality. And raids are no small thing to develop, so we’re not talking about minimal impact.

I can’t believe people are literally suggesting they’ll quit if ArenaNet builds content they aren’t personally interested in playing. This blows my mind.

evilunderling.9265:

Nobody is proposing anything with more than a superficial resemblance to the way WoW does raids.

The OP mentioned instanced raids designed to be run by 10+ people in guild groups. That’s the kind of thing I’m referring to, and in which I have no interest.

timmyf.1490:

I can’t believe people are literally suggesting they’ll quit if ArenaNet builds content they aren’t personally interested in playing. This blows my mind.

It’s not about building content I’m not interested in. It’s about the impact the drain on resources would have on the rest of the game. If they could magically create that content with zero man hours, then I really wouldn’t care – but that’s not at all what would have to happen in reality.

Think about it like this: if Anet said “we’re no longer going to be producing new content,” would it “blow your mind” if I replied with, “then I guess it’s time for me to find a new game.” Because to me, that’s what would basically happen if they invested the time and resources into making instanced end-game raiding work the way the OP is proposing.

timmyf.1490:

CorrynnStarr.7942:

Ill say it again. creating yet another game mode only serves to divide the number of players away from already established modes, and would weaken the content to the point like when we had separated servers. people flocked to one type of server and the other servers were so dismal in players that not all the content could be accomplished on certain servers due to “diversity” We all know what happened then, servers died and it all had to be revamped. when we spread ourselves out to thin, it becomes a chore to do already existing content. This game was not meant to be a traditional “Raid” type game. Adding a multitude of game modes would just serve to frustrate us in the end and lose players.

Think of it like a Pie… we have 8 slices in a normal pie, able to fully feed 8 people 1 slice. the more people you have, the thinner the slices become, and the less amount each person gets to have. eventually the slices will be small enuff to the point people will not compete for their slices and just go somewhere else to get a bigger piece of pie.

Its nothing personal against raids, its just we will spread ourselves out to far and the game will feel empty and un-enjoyable. which brings me back to why servers died…

We better not add new maps in the Maguuma Jungle, then. It’ll just pull people away from Dry Top and Silverwastes.

thats exactly my point…. how many people play in queensdale after lvl 10 hmmm? how many stick around in wayfarer foot hills after you have leveld a bit? As it stands currently, we are all pretty much content hungry and stay on the new content unless we are leveling a new toon. Any other diversity would only serve to split us up even further making the game feel lonely. In the last 4 weeks I have spent an incredible amount of time gaining 100% map completion on 5 toons… In my journey thru all the areas, I was lucky to see 1-2 other people in any given area I was working on at the time.

Right now the majority of the people playing are doing 1 of 6 things…. fractals, dungeons, world boss training, leveling a new toon, wvw/pvp or silverwastes. the more things you add to the game in terms of game modes, the less and less the other modes will have to work with. Your map theory is a wash as those already doing the mapping are gonna continue mapping in the new map content. You arent taking from any other categories, and those that do swap… do so temporarily, then back to wvw/pvp/dungeons or whatever.

DSRilk.2978:

timmyf.1490:

I can’t believe people are literally suggesting they’ll quit if ArenaNet builds content they aren’t personally interested in playing. This blows my mind.

It’s not about building content I’m not interested in. It’s about the impact the drain on resources would have on the rest of the game. If they could magically create that content with zero man hours, then I really wouldn’t care – but that’s not at all what would have to happen in reality.

As a player interested in instanced content, I would have quit this game a long time ago if I had your attitude. It’s a good thing some of us recognize that we may only enjoy portions of the game and aren’t so selfish as to suggest 100% of resources must go to game modes we enjoy OR ELSE.

I hope Guild Halls bring guild-wide raids. GMs are a joke.

This subject comes up a lot, and there’s always an easy answer in 2 parts:

1) Of the minority of players that care about raids either way, plenty of players rabidly hate the idea.
2) They’re expensive to develop as content.

Combined together its an expensive feature that by all the data we have across all games most players don’t care about and won’t engage at all, and additionally will actively kitten off a meaningful group of the people who do care.

CorrynnStarr.7942:

Right now the majority of the people playing are doing 1 of 6 things…. fractals, dungeons, world boss training, leveling a new toon, wvw/pvp or silverwastes. the more things you add to the game in terms of game modes, the less and less the other modes will have to work with. Your map theory is a wash as those already doing the mapping are gonna continue mapping in the new map content. You arent taking from any other categories, and those that do swap… do so temporarily, then back to wvw/pvp/dungeons or whatever.

A lot of what you say is very smart and I appreciate your thoughts, but you’re forgetting one important thing:

Players can PLAY MORE.

There are literally millions of people who STOPPED PLAYING. They can come back. Players who still play can play more. I have dozens of people in my guild who log on for their dailies and leave because there’s “nothing to do.”

Raids are something to do.

While raids could absolutely pull people from other modes, it could also pull people from other games and that needs to be a consideration as well.

timmyf.1490:

I can’t believe people are literally suggesting they’ll quit if ArenaNet builds content they aren’t personally interested in playing. This blows my mind.

A bad raid guild experience tends to be like, super traumatic :p

When people say they would quit over raids, they most likely mean they wouldn’t want to play with the emergence of raid culture.

timmyf.1490:

I can’t believe people are literally suggesting they’ll quit if ArenaNet builds content they aren’t personally interested in playing. This blows my mind.

It shouldnt, cuz people play games to have fun and feel a sense of accomplishment… if they arent getting it, or fearful they wont get it due to lack of developement, then they will consider leaving for another game that does. Just as you are fighting for your emphasis on a certain kind of content, so they too are fighting for theirs.

I just don’t get why people hate instanced raids. If they don’t like instanced coordinated content that’s actually hard, simply don’t do it. I am 100% not everybody likes open world piñata zergfests like Tequatl and Triple Trouble, and yet, nobody complains about them.

timmyf.1490:

I can’t believe people are literally suggesting they’ll quit if ArenaNet builds content they aren’t personally interested in playing. This blows my mind.

I’m inclined to agree, simply because any amount of time and effort going into a new raid is actually pretty unlikely to be time and effort that would have otherwise have gone into something else that you might like more.

The more likely scenario? They’ll just decide to save a bit of money and report a minor surplus back to NCSoft, who will pay slightly higher dividends, and if any MMO content comes about as a result at all, it’ll be something pointless like some cash shop lingerie in Vindictus or something.

CorrynnStarr.7942:

timmyf.1490:

I can’t believe people are literally suggesting they’ll quit if ArenaNet builds content they aren’t personally interested in playing. This blows my mind.

It shouldnt, cuz people play games to have fun and feel a sense of accomplishment… if they arent getting it, or fearful they wont get it due to lack of developement, then they will consider leaving for another game that does. Just as you are fighting for your emphasis on a certain kind of content, so they too are fighting for theirs.

There’s tons of players who don’t do dungeons and Fractals and WvW and PvP. They haven’t quit yet. Why would raids make them quit now?

timmyf.1490:

CorrynnStarr.7942:

timmyf.1490:

I can’t believe people are literally suggesting they’ll quit if ArenaNet builds content they aren’t personally interested in playing. This blows my mind.

It shouldnt, cuz people play games to have fun and feel a sense of accomplishment… if they arent getting it, or fearful they wont get it due to lack of developement, then they will consider leaving for another game that does. Just as you are fighting for your emphasis on a certain kind of content, so they too are fighting for theirs.

There’s tons of players who don’t do dungeons and Fractals and WvW and PvP. They haven’t quit yet. Why would raids make them quit now?

as i just said, adding a new mode will take away from developement of their current prefered mode, making them feel more inclined to go elsewhere for their fun.

timmyf.1490:

As a player interested in instanced content, I would have quit this game a long time ago if I had your attitude. It’s a good thing some of us recognize that we may only enjoy portions of the game and aren’t so selfish as to suggest 100% of resources must go to game modes we enjoy OR ELSE.

It’s not selfish to express your desires – especially when it comes to games, which are supposed to be about fun. And there would be absolutely nothing wrong with you leaving GW2 if you had done all the content you wanted, and were told that they were not going to produce any more instanced content (if that’s where your main interest lied). In actuality, it would be quite silly for you to stay.

You are trying to cast me as it’s all about me or else, but that’s not at all the reality. I don’t care for 5 man group dungeons, and Anet’s continued to add them on occasion. I didn’t say a thing, even though I knew I would never run them; but that’s because other content was also being added. I’m not saying “do only what I want,” I’m saying there’s no way you can do end game guild-based raiding and still do anything else.

Right now, new GW2 content is mainly new zones to explore and some story lines to go along with it, and maybe an occasional instanced dungeon. WoW’s methodology is to add new raids. There’s a reason I stopped playing WoW and still play GW2, and there’s a reason why Blizz, as large as they are, focuses only on raids – because you really can’t do it all.

Again, if GW2 continued churning out content I’m interested in and could somehow create cool raids on top of it, then I’m good. But there’s no way that’s a viable reality.

CorrynnStarr.7942:

timmyf.1490:

CorrynnStarr.7942:

timmyf.1490:

I can’t believe people are literally suggesting they’ll quit if ArenaNet builds content they aren’t personally interested in playing. This blows my mind.

It shouldnt, cuz people play games to have fun and feel a sense of accomplishment… if they arent getting it, or fearful they wont get it due to lack of developement, then they will consider leaving for another game that does. Just as you are fighting for your emphasis on a certain kind of content, so they too are fighting for theirs.

There’s tons of players who don’t do dungeons and Fractals and WvW and PvP. They haven’t quit yet. Why would raids make them quit now?

as i just said, adding a new mode will take away from developement of their current prefered mode, making them feel more inclined to go elsewhere for their fun.

Bye Felicia!

DSRilk.2978:

I don’t care for 5 man group dungeons, and Anet’s continued to add them on occasion.

Yeah, on occasion. Singular. As in they’ve added one dungeon path since launch.

If you’d like to count Fractals, then increase that to 3 occasions.

evilunderling.9265:

…any amount of time and effort going into a new raid is actually pretty unlikely to be time and effort that would have otherwise have gone into something else that you might like more.

This is flat out incorrect. Raids require artists and designers – the same people used to create new dungeons and new world-based activities. There’s a massive overlap.

timmyf.1490:

CorrynnStarr.7942:

timmyf.1490:

I can’t believe people are literally suggesting they’ll quit if ArenaNet builds content they aren’t personally interested in playing. This blows my mind.

It shouldnt, cuz people play games to have fun and feel a sense of accomplishment… if they arent getting it, or fearful they wont get it due to lack of developement, then they will consider leaving for another game that does. Just as you are fighting for your emphasis on a certain kind of content, so they too are fighting for theirs.

There’s tons of players who don’t do dungeons and Fractals and WvW and PvP. They haven’t quit yet. Why would raids make them quit now?

Again, because raid culture is poisonous in many ways.

Beyond the crazy hostility raiding (especially difficult raiding) can engender, there’s the haves/have nots issue and the way that impacts player behavior.

There seem to be plenty of people who just hate the idea of stuff they can never accomplish/get. They’re SOMEWHAT accepting if it’s just too hard, but the requirements on raids are different:

1) significant time investment
2) forced interaction with people you don’t particularly want to interact with

Admittedly irrationally, this leaves people feeling they’re forced to put up with the time investment (usually set raid times) and the personal interaction issues (both basic to large groups and also because raids will take really awful people that are good players if they want to be competitive), and they don’t want that feeling from GW2.

DSRilk.2978:

I’m not saying “do only what I want,” I’m saying there’s no way you can do end game guild-based raiding and still do anything else.

That is patently absurd.

Carbine Studios was practically razed to the ground after the Wildstar launch. Despite that, they’ve been adding both raids and open-world content, and more dungeons, solo instances, QoL improvements, and all sorts of other things.

Final Fantasy XIV has no trouble whatsoever releasing a hardcore raid every six months, while still releasing plenty of small dungeons, story quests, feature improvements, three PvP modes, single-fight group trials, and world bosses.

Is even World of Warcraft an example of this? I suspect that you’ve overlooked a lot if you think it is.

DSRilk.2978:

This is flat out incorrect. Raids require artists and designers – the same people used to create new dungeons and new world-based activities. There’s a massive overlap.

The second and third sentences are correct, but your conclusion does not follow. The Heart of Thorns release date is Soon™, and thanks to semi-recent events, there are a lot of designers and artists with all of the relevant experience who are currently looking for work. That means that this is ultimately a money problem, and money problems are a lot more complicated than you seem prepared to acccept.

Ultimately, you will never see the ‘cost’ of raiding reflected anywhere outside of quarterly reports and dividends.

The only poisonous atmosphere im sensing is this anti raid hate and selfishness.