Guild Wars 2

Windsagio.1340:

There seem to be plenty of people who just hate the idea of stuff they can never accomplish/get. They’re SOMEWHAT accepting if it’s just too hard, but the requirements on raids are different:

1) significant time investment
2) forced interaction with people you don’t particularly want to interact with

Funnily enough these are the exact two issues that make me hate open world. Ironic isnt it?

spoj.9672:

Windsagio.1340:

There seem to be plenty of people who just hate the idea of stuff they can never accomplish/get. They’re SOMEWHAT accepting if it’s just too hard, but the requirements on raids are different:

1) significant time investment
2) forced interaction with people you don’t particularly want to interact with

Funnily enough these are the exact two issues that make me hate open world. Ironic isnt it?

Mine are a little different:

1) Boring and grindy

2) forced interaction with people you don’t particularly want to interact with

evilunderling.9265:

DSRilk.2978:

I’m not saying “do only what I want,” I’m saying there’s no way you can do end game guild-based raiding and still do anything else.

That is patently, ridiculously, absurdly false.

Carbine Studios was practically razed to the ground after the Wildstar launch. Despite that, they’ve been adding both raids and open-world content, and more dungeons, solo instances, QoL improvements, and all sorts of other things.

Final Fantasy XIV has no trouble whatsoever releasing a hardcore raid every six months, while still releasing plenty of small dungeons, story quests, feature improvements, three PvP modes, single-fight group trials, and world bosses.

Is even World of Warcraft an example of this? I very much doubt it.

I can’t speak to FFXIV. WoW, however, is definitely like that – especially in its current incarnation (it’s why I’m back to GW2 after 10 years on WoW). As for Wildstar, it absolutely IS like that. They did nearly nothing but raids for a while, their player base shrank beyond recognition, and they swapped to doing open world and small instanced stuff instead. It’s why I dropped Wildstar and have recently come back. Again, not because it’s “do stuff only for me” like some of you insist on trying to paint some of us, it’s because solidly built raids take a ton of resources, and you just can’t do both well simultaneously.

I’m really not sure what some of you are expecting. People should just keep playing a game that has no new content for them just because some might be coming in the future? You must have a ton more free time than I do.

timmyf.1490:

spoj.9672:

Windsagio.1340:

There seem to be plenty of people who just hate the idea of stuff they can never accomplish/get. They’re SOMEWHAT accepting if it’s just too hard, but the requirements on raids are different:

1) significant time investment
2) forced interaction with people you don’t particularly want to interact with

Funnily enough these are the exact two issues that make me hate open world. Ironic isnt it?

Mine are a little different:

1) Boring and grindy

2) forced interaction with people you don’t particularly want to interact with

Open world “raiding” can definitely be boring and grindy – it’s not like I’m a fan of that either. I really can’t see how it’s a significant time investment or forced interactions though, especially when compared to instanced raids.

spoj.9672:

Windsagio.1340:

There seem to be plenty of people who just hate the idea of stuff they can never accomplish/get. They’re SOMEWHAT accepting if it’s just too hard, but the requirements on raids are different:

1) significant time investment
2) forced interaction with people you don’t particularly want to interact with

Funnily enough these are the exact two issues that make me hate open world. Ironic isnt it?

Nope, pretty normal. Those are simply two playing styles/game development designs that are mostly mutually exclusive. Most MMORPGs go for raid endgame style. GW2 chose the other option.
And no, as the Raid CDI proved, you cannot have both, because there are some serious conflicts of ideology and design between them.

The main one is the inclusivity vs. exclusivity argument. The second one would be, i guess, the question of rewards – unique, better and more rewarding vs available through other content, as good as in other content, equally rewarding

(and that’s beside the already mentioned case of finite development resources and every gaming mode fans wanting to have the biggest share of the pie… where raid community is always one of the smallest in game, and yet want more than others)

Yeah. best community in MMO’s my kitten . Bunch of selfish crybabies who threaten to quit if a gamemode they don’t personally want to play is added. I say good riddance.

DSRilk.2978:

timmyf.1490:

spoj.9672:

Windsagio.1340:

There seem to be plenty of people who just hate the idea of stuff they can never accomplish/get. They’re SOMEWHAT accepting if it’s just too hard, but the requirements on raids are different:

1) significant time investment
2) forced interaction with people you don’t particularly want to interact with

Funnily enough these are the exact two issues that make me hate open world. Ironic isnt it?

Mine are a little different:

1) Boring and grindy

2) forced interaction with people you don’t particularly want to interact with

Open world “raiding” can definitely be boring and grindy – it’s not like I’m a fan of that either. I really can’t see how it’s a significant time investment or forced interactions though, especially when compared to instanced raids.

Silverwastes.

Sit in a map for 40 minutes just for Vinewrath. Mind numbingly boring. Takes way too long. And to top it off i have to put up with hundreds of players id rather just not have there. Who just scale up the events, do pathetic damage and prolong the agony.

And then theres the case of Triple Trouble. Its open world so you cannot avoid certain types of players. The event is a coordination check so failure is common. Its only done by forced exclusivity by using ts and jumping to overflow maps (makeshift instance) to avoid leeches. Surely people can see that is a major problem? If its open world it should be doable without such a high coordination investment. But we still want encounters like that. They just dont work unless they are instanced. And i prefer smaller numbers of players so the individual contribution isnt invalidated by a zerg.

Dinks.2478:

Yeah. best community in MMO’s my kitten . Bunch of selfish crybabies who threaten to quit if a gamemode they don’t personally want to play is added. I say good riddance.

No one is a crybaby or threatening anything – yeesh, what is with some people. Letting the company know you have no interest in a potential change in the direction of content makes perfect sense. If someone recommended adding new ways for minis to battle one another in lieu of other forms of content, you think people should say… what… nothing?

Someone mentioned raider mentality as one issue they had with potentially adding raiding to GW2, and I think that’s an interesting point. The anti-raiding posts comment about the potential down sides of adding raiding, while many (though not all) of the pro raiding comments are little more than personal attacks and snide comments.

spoj.9672:

Silverwastes.

Sit in a map for 40 minutes just for Vinewrath. Mind numbingly boring. Takes way too long. And to top it off i have to put up with hundreds of players id rather just not have there.

I guess the first part is just how you approach things. I don’t sit around waiting for bosses to pop up. I do stuff, and then if a boss pops up I may join in. Also, aren’t most of the bosses on timers so there’s no real waiting?

I’m confused by your second point. Usually “dealing with other players” means having to actually deal with them. Like trying to get them not to do things that kill everyone else in the group. Is your issue literally just having other players nearby or am I misunderstanding you?

DSRilk.2978:

spoj.9672:

Silverwastes.

Sit in a map for 40 minutes just for Vinewrath. Mind numbingly boring. Takes way too long. And to top it off i have to put up with hundreds of players id rather just not have there.

I guess the first part is just how you approach things. I don’t sit around waiting for bosses to pop up. I do stuff, and then if a boss pops up I may join in. Also, aren’t most of the bosses on timers so there’s no real waiting?

I’m confused by your second point. Usually “dealing with other players” means having to actually deal with them. Like trying to get them not to do things that kill everyone else in the group. Is your issue literally just having other players nearby or am I misunderstanding you?

Vinewrath spawns at the end of the map meta event. So you need to be there for about 40 minutes unless you get fortunate with map hopping. Yes you can go do various events while you wait. But that doesnt change that its an extremely long and tedious process.

I edited my post. So maybe that will clarify the second point a bit better. Ill repeat the key points.

In open world we have no choice of who we play with. So if an event requires a certain level of coordination or effort then we are bound to have an unsavoury experience when a considerable number of players do not contribute. Theres also the added fact that if i was just soloing or with a few likeminded friends we would kill various open world bosses in about a tenth of the time it takes a zerg to do it (scaling and low dps players dont mix well). And knowing this can make open worlding in large groups really unfun and boring because im well aware that it doesnt need to take anywhere near as long as it does.

DSRilk.2978:

The anti-raiding posts comment about the potential down sides of adding raiding, while many (though not all) of the pro raiding comments are little more than personal attacks and snide comments.

The snide comments started here.

MattyP.6954:

If instanced raids turn out anything like the current dungeons, it’ll just be more people wearing ’zerker gear and stacking in the corner dps-racing the mobs.

No. Thank. You.

If you’d like to see why those snide comments were returned, read through the quoted user’s previous posts. This post is certainly not this user’s first of this style. This user is, as we may say, a known factor.

DSRilk.2978:

If someone recommended adding new ways for minis to battle one another in lieu of other forms of content, you think people should say… what… nothing?

You mean polymock? Yeah, I’m still waiting for that. It has been 3 years.

spoj.9672:

Windsagio.1340:

There seem to be plenty of people who just hate the idea of stuff they can never accomplish/get. They’re SOMEWHAT accepting if it’s just too hard, but the requirements on raids are different:

1) significant time investment
2) forced interaction with people you don’t particularly want to interact with

Funnily enough these are the exact two issues that make me hate open world. Ironic isnt it?

No, because neither is forced — although part of that is my fault for allowing ambiguity.

- Open world (say silverwastes) takes a large amount of total time investment, but no set-block time investment as raids tend to.

- No open world content requires interacting with other players in a meaningful manner.

Dinks.2478:

Yeah. best community in MMO’s my kitten . Bunch of selfish crybabies who threaten to quit if a gamemode they don’t personally want to play is added. I say good riddance.

pot…. meet kettle!

these game modes are ESTABLISHED and been a part of the game since launch, raids are not. you are suggesting a totally new idea and whining cuz it isnt as popular as you want it to be?

And again, to me at least, it says something that people are vehemently, even violently against the raid game mode existing.

That in and of itself says worlds about how it effects the culture.

considering this isnt and never was meant to be a raiding game…and what violence are you saying exists?

CorrynnStarr.7942:

considering this isnt and never was meant to be a raiding game…and what violence are you saying exists?

I picture people yelling ><

It’s okay to be mad if something makes you mad.

My point is that if raiding was so unpleasant for people that they have such a strong sense of revulsion to it, it perforce says that at the very least there are divisive effects to including raid content. It’s a where there’s smoke there’s fire kind of deal.

nope, not gonna fly here… you dont assume some one is violent just because they have a strong opinion against something you like or want. We have already explained the reason for the dislike. it wasnt intended for the game to begin with and it would sap resources that are already devoted to current content starved developement.

There are no adverse effects to adding raids. The only divisive effect adding raids would cause is that selfish people who don’t want people who enjoy different gamemodes than them to have fun too will feel slighted.

Dinks… AGAIN, and for the last time, your assumption no adverse effects would be caused is not correct. IT DRAINS RESOURCES NEEDED ELSEWHERE AND ALREADY DEVOTED ELSEWHERE. It is extremely labor intensive to implement such a game mode on to a team that is already overwhelmed. It will cause already low numbers to be even lower by dragging people away from the already established content. There is only so many times you can split a hair…

CorrynnStarr.7942:

nope, not gonna fly here… you dont assume some one is violent just because they have a strong opinion against something you like or want. We have already explained the reason for the dislike. it wasnt intended for the game to begin with and it would sap resources that are already devoted to current content starved developement.

It’s a play on words, take a chill pill.

And here’s the important part: I AGREE WITH YOU IN DISLIKING IT

I think it’s terrible for the game in all number of ways.

The thing is people that dislike it have no more right to be myopic about it than spoj saying “the only toxic people are the haters”.

Yes there is so many times you can repeat your same tired nonsensical reason for being a selfish player. I agree. So stop it because it is childish and getting annoying. We’re here trying to get some content in this game for more than 5 people at a time and you’re just sitting here trying to make sure people who don’t want to carry 100 random pugs running nomads gear through barely mediocre world bosses don’t get to have fun in the game.

Maybe it is because you’re one of the people being carried and you’re afraid you’ll need to step it up when we’re in raids or maybe it is because you’re unfairly linking the word raid to a bad experience in a completely different game. Either way it is childish, selfish, and your entire argument is meaningless. Adding more stuff to a game isn’t removing resources from the game its the opposite.

Windsagio.1340:

And again, to me at least, it says something that people are vehemently, even violently against the raid game mode existing.

That in and of itself says worlds about how it effects the culture.

Says more about those people actually.

Dinks.2478:

Yes there is so many times you can repeat your same tired nonsensical reason for being a selfish player. I agree. So stop it because it is childish and getting annoying. We’re here trying to get some content in this game for more than 5 people at a time and you’re just sitting here trying to make sure people who don’t want to carry 100 random pugs running nomads gear through barely mediocre world bosses don’t get to have fun in the game.

Maybe it is because you’re one of the people being carried and you’re afraid you’ll need to step it up when we’re in raids or maybe it is because you’re unfairly linking the word raid to a bad experience in a completely different game. Either way it is childish, selfish, and your entire argument is meaningless. Adding more stuff to a game isn’t removing resources from the game its the opposite.

Example of what I’m talking about. It’s all dehumanize and denigrate the ‘evil other’ who dares disagree.

~~~

Can you agree that it’s a divisive issue?

spoj.9672:

Windsagio.1340:

And again, to me at least, it says something that people are vehemently, even violently against the raid game mode existing.

That in and of itself says worlds about how it effects the culture.

Says more about those people actually.

That people can get irrational about something they’ve had a bad experience with?

Totally. It also says they had bad experiences however. If you think they only had bad experiences because they weren’t good enough (I don’t think you’ve said that yourself, but Dinks above sure is) you’re fooling yourself.

You are doing the same thing by saying raiding is bad because of some bad experiences in other games. And to be honest those bad experiences arent really solely from the raid itself. Obviously something went wrong or you grouped with the wrong people to get that sort of experience. Thats a people problem, not raiding itself. Challenging content is always going to bring out emotions. Is that a reason to cut development? No. Especially when those emotions can be really positive and bring people together at other times.

Some people cant take that intense emotional atmosphere. Thats fair enough. Its not for them. But that doesnt mean the entire area is bad. Its a case of overly sensitive people in an emotional environment having some bad experiences and unfairly shouting against things. People always remember the bad over the good. So its not really surprising that we get so much negativity drowning out everything else.

Besides even a minority is a good enough reason to develop content. I would consider satisfying 10% of the population a very good investment. Especially considering that is quite a large group when you consider how many split groups there are already.

My main point in this discussion is that it’s DIVISIVE and EXPENSIVE so I don’t think they’ll do it.

If I have another point, I want to help people understand why folks like/dislike it. It’s not a moral judgement on either side (or isn’t meant to be), but if we acknowledge and try to understand each other it facilitates communication and keeps the outrage highs to a minimum.

I’m trying as much as I can to keep my own personal feelings out of it, because it’s not constructive (as we see in the thread). I only posted them at all because the dude was freaking out at me by projecting the opposite position onto me.

No, I can agree that some people who have nothing to lose from my gain just don’t want me to gain for whatever arbitrary reason and that is really kittening me off.

Kind of like if your friend had an extra thing you wanted that he didn’t need but instead of giving it to you he just throws it away because he can.

It doesn’t get much simpler than, don’t do raids if you don’t want to do raids. It will have zero affect on the quality of the game outside of the raid. You’ll still have your button mashing zerg fests. You’ll still have 5 man dungeons. You’ll still have PvP. You’ll still have WvW. Nothing is going to disappear because they added new stuff.

I am sorry if I am coming across as harsh but they’re being equally if not worse to people who want raids. I’m not going to sit here while somebody tries to sabotage one of the few things that might actually revitalize this game for no reason other than they don’t like it.

They think they have something to lose, that’s my point.

Leaving aside the development expenditure argument (which has some validity, but is a little pat), people think the game will change the game in a way they don’t like.

Saying it’s just bloodymindedness is a dry socket. They may be wrong but they think that the anet investing in and adding raids will adversely effect the game and their gameplay experience.

And… yes you’re right, the divisiveness isn’t at this point particularly one sided, it’s a subject that for some reason generates strong emotions. Still, lashing out only makes it worse, even if it feels justified (Of course I’m being a bit of a scold so I hope you’ll forgive that :p)

CorrynnStarr.7942:

IT DRAINS RESOURCES NEEDED ELSEWHERE AND ALREADY DEVOTED ELSEWHERE. It is extremely labor intensive to implement such a game mode on to a team that is already overwhelmed.

Already refuted, but again:

Arenanet’s release date is flexible (and we’re talking about things that might be seen in a follow-up patch rather than in the expansion itself), and a lot of MMO studios have seen layoffs and shutdowns. This means that Arenanet have the option are able to add capacity if they need it. So by ‘resources’, you mean ‘money’.

Money might be finite, but it comes from and goes to a lot of places, and the places that will ever have anything to do with you, me, ANet, or GW2 aren’t even a drop in the ocean.

I’m honestly not sure if you’re trolling right now Windsagio, simply because usually your arguments are founded in more logic than this and less than pure feeling and opinion.

The idea that raids are bad because you had a bad experience once is silly. The idea that we shouldn’t even discuss the topic because there are people who hate them is even worse.

Using resource costs and all that as an argument is also pretty silly considering we’re making pure guesses based on past actions and nothing more, really sound enough to say “nope can’t happen, don’t even discuss it” I mean, wow people seem quite sure of their guessing ability.

As far as raids needing more time… well in my last game we cleared most raids in 15-20 mins, some being as low as ~5mins. Compared to running a VW that might last me an hour depending on total map participation on proceeding to the boss phase… well, yeah. Now the idea “well you’re not locked in” guess what, I’m not locked into raiding either. If something comes up with I say “sorry guys, gotta take care of something” and they find a replacement. It’s really not that big of a deal. Hell I’ve passed out drunk on raids in my old game (to be fair we were playing a drinking game, and as the tank, I had to drink a lot ) and they continued on after giving me 5-10 mins to respond and laughed at me the next day. There’s nothing forcing you to stay.

As for the “forced to play with other people” Well that statement can be read two ways. “I can’t solo this” and “god I wish I could play with only the people I want to” But yeah, solo, not likely, though you can solo dungeons right now, i’d hope if they did raids it’d have better design. The other side is where I sit on that phrase, I assume an MMO is going to have some fun content built for teams, I mean that’s why I play MMOs vs a single player RPG while I have my phone on my lap to chat with friends. But, I don’t enjoy playing with people who have completely different objective than me. Getting into a VW map and having it turn into a chest farm… ugh. Watching people AFK and scale up a tower while I attempt to solo/duo it. Failing to get a reward because not everyone can do what was specifically made quite easy to allow the greatest amount of people to complete it as long as they actually try. Couple that with griefing and leaching and yeah, I’d like to be able to play with friends/acquantences or at least people who have read the LFG and said “yeah this is the party for me” (note my LFG notes do not have zerker 80 exp in them when I post )

As for why I say raids, I think the increased amount of characters can broaden up the game and expand upon what is possible. I can think of various ways to promote the idea of defensive build use for different reasons. I see the viability of more professions instead of the 4-5 profession meta we have currently (makes sense 5 slots).

I think it’d be a good move on ANet’s part, shouldn’t take much more work than new dungeons/fractals and could be so much better combating many of the aspects of current dungeon/fractal content that have many people going “meh” That is granted that they actually want to make challenging group content and aren’t blowing smoke where the sun don’t shine.

Jerus.4350:

I’m honestly not sure if you’re trolling right now Windsagio, simply because usually your arguments are founded in more logic than this and less than pure feeling and opinion.

The idea that raids are bad because you had a bad experience once is silly. The idea that we shouldn’t even discuss the topic because there are people who hate them is even worse.

Using resource costs and all that as an argument is also pretty silly considering we’re making pure guesses based on past actions and nothing more, really sound enough to say “nope can’t happen, don’t even discuss it” I mean, wow people seem quite sure of their guessing ability.

As far as raids needing more time… well in my last game we cleared most raids in 15-20 mins, some being as low as ~5mins. Compared to running a VW that might last me an hour depending on total map participation on proceeding to the boss phase… well, yeah. Now the idea “well you’re not locked in” guess what, I’m not locked into raiding either. If something comes up with I say “sorry guys, gotta take care of something” and they find a replacement. It’s really not that big of a deal. Hell I’ve passed out drunk on raids in my old game (to be fair we were playing a drinking game, and as the tank, I had to drink a lot ) and they continued on after giving me 5-10 mins to respond and laughed at me the next day. There’s nothing forcing you to stay.

As for the “forced to play with other people” Well that statement can be read two ways. “I can’t solo this” and “god I wish I could play with only the people I want to” But yeah, solo, not likely, though you can solo dungeons right now, i’d hope if they did raids it’d have better design. The other side is where I sit on that phrase, I assume an MMO is going to have some fun content built for teams, I mean that’s why I play MMOs vs a single player RPG while I have my phone on my lap to chat with friends. But, I don’t enjoy playing with people who have completely different objective than me. Getting into a VW map and having it turn into a chest farm… ugh. Watching people AFK and scale up a tower while I attempt to solo/duo it. Failing to get a reward because not everyone can do what was specifically made quite easy to allow the greatest amount of people to complete it as long as they actually try. Couple that with griefing and leaching and yeah, I’d like to be able to play with friends/acquantences or at least people who have read the LFG and said “yeah this is the party for me” (note my LFG notes do not have zerker 80 exp in them when I post )

As for why I say raids, I think the increased amount of characters can broaden up the game and expand upon what is possible. I can think of various ways to promote the idea of defensive build use for different reasons. I see the viability of more professions instead of the 4-5 profession meta we have currently (makes sense 5 slots).

I think it’d be a good move on ANet’s part, shouldn’t take much more work than new dungeons/fractals and could be so much better combating many of the aspects of current dungeon/fractal content that have many people going “meh” That is granted that they actually want to make challenging group content and aren’t blowing smoke where the sun don’t shine.

I could kiss you right now, you spared me a wall of text I was too lazy to post!
… Wait, is it blasphemy to kiss the son of random x deity?

Jerus.4350:

I’m honestly not sure if you’re trolling right now Windsagio, simply because usually your arguments are founded in more logic than this and less than pure feeling and opinion.

The idea that raids are bad because you had a bad experience once is silly. The idea that we shouldn’t even discuss the topic because there are people who hate them is even worse.

Using resource costs and all that as an argument is also pretty silly considering we’re making pure guesses based on past actions and nothing more, really sound enough to say “nope can’t happen, don’t even discuss it” I mean, wow people seem quite sure of their guessing ability.

As far as raids needing more time… well in my last game we cleared most raids in 15-20 mins, some being as low as ~5mins. Compared to running a VW that might last me an hour depending on total map participation on proceeding to the boss phase… well, yeah. Now the idea “well you’re not locked in” guess what, I’m not locked into raiding either. If something comes up with I say “sorry guys, gotta take care of something” and they find a replacement. It’s really not that big of a deal. Hell I’ve passed out drunk on raids in my old game (to be fair we were playing a drinking game, and as the tank, I had to drink a lot ) and they continued on after giving me 5-10 mins to respond and laughed at me the next day. There’s nothing forcing you to stay.

As for the “forced to play with other people” Well that statement can be read two ways. “I can’t solo this” and “god I wish I could play with only the people I want to” But yeah, solo, not likely, though you can solo dungeons right now, i’d hope if they did raids it’d have better design. The other side is where I sit on that phrase, I assume an MMO is going to have some fun content built for teams, I mean that’s why I play MMOs vs a single player RPG while I have my phone on my lap to chat with friends. But, I don’t enjoy playing with people who have completely different objective than me. Getting into a VW map and having it turn into a chest farm… ugh. Watching people AFK and scale up a tower while I attempt to solo/duo it. Failing to get a reward because not everyone can do what was specifically made quite easy to allow the greatest amount of people to complete it as long as they actually try. Couple that with griefing and leaching and yeah, I’d like to be able to play with friends/acquantences or at least people who have read the LFG and said “yeah this is the party for me” (note my LFG notes do not have zerker 80 exp in them when I post )

As for why I say raids, I think the increased amount of characters can broaden up the game and expand upon what is possible. I can think of various ways to promote the idea of defensive build use for different reasons. I see the viability of more professions instead of the 4-5 profession meta we have currently (makes sense 5 slots).

I think it’d be a good move on ANet’s part, shouldn’t take much more work than new dungeons/fractals and could be so much better combating many of the aspects of current dungeon/fractal content that have many people going “meh” That is granted that they actually want to make challenging group content and aren’t blowing smoke where the sun don’t shine.

I’m not trolling, I’m reacting.

I’m reacting to a whole bunch of “NO YOU”RE DUMB" “NO YOU’RE BAD!” yelling across the barrier.

I’m happy to discard the resources argument, it’s complex.

The fact that people can legitimately hate it is a different thing, and I don’t like seeing that rejected out of hand — especially since it feeds the cycle of yelling.

I understand why people like them, I understand why people don’t like them.

I also understand that people on both sides see their position as the only natural way and opposition as stupid.

~~~

Anet’s decision is long made, and there’s not remotely a player consensus to even begin to push them to change it (whatever that decision is, I dont’ know any more than anyone else).

The thing is that until we get past this “Well you’re just a fool, you’re just an elitist kitten” we can’t even discuss it.

~~~

EDIT: It’s not cut-and-dried either way, and we need to get over that. It’s a complex decision and people have a tendency to see all the advantages and none of the disadvantages of the things they personally want.

Windsagio.1340:

EDIT: It’s not cut-and-dried either way, and we need to get over that. It’s a complex decision and people have a tendency to see all the advantages and none of the disadvantages of the things they personally want.

It’s also a false equivalency. One side is saying, “This is content I want and I’d like it included along side the type of content the rest of you want.” The other side is saying, “You can’t have this content because I don’t want it.”

Not. The. Same. Thing.

timmyf.1490:

Windsagio.1340:

EDIT: It’s not cut-and-dried either way, and we need to get over that. It’s a complex decision and people have a tendency to see all the advantages and none of the disadvantages of the things they personally want.

It’s also a false equivalency. One side is saying, “This is content I want and I’d like it included along side the type of content the rest of you want.” The other side is saying, “You can’t have this content because I don’t want it.”

Not. The. Same. Thing.

Exactly, its not the same thing at all. One side is absolutely more validated than the other because one side wants more options and one side wants to limit the other side.

Yeah, people suck (in general) with our emotions and all often getting the better of us and resorting to that “you suck” “no you suck” mentality. But, contributing to it never helps, I find just ignoring it works best and continue on with a reason based discussion, eventually those people will catch on that no one cares about their squabbling.

And personally I hate Open world in general, the only reason I do SW is I find the Amber Troll and Copper Husk, and the VW Troll and VW Thrasher to be mildly entertaining(shout out to Indigo Terragriffs, while I don’t enjoy doing them mainly due to people who either don’t know what they’re doing or intentionally griefing I find their design to be quite nice). I find it annoying that I find it best to just afk my way through the preperations waiting for the fun parts though. In general zerging literally puts me to sleep.

I don’t go on raving about how it’s killing the game though, I think it’s great, I just want options is all. It’s only logical that zergs limit challenge and that’s why instances were created some 14 years ago by multiple MMOs. If ANet comes up with a way to change this situation, I bow to them as I would think most MMO developers would as they’d have conquered a 15 year old problem that no game I know of has been able to do. They’ve made strides with the split stuff, but even then it’s just smaller zergs and doesn’t really solve the issue as a whole. And, my main problem with that is the challenge often becomes not the encounter itself but in herding the cats to actually accomplish the goal. There’s a reason I stopped leading large scale raids in other games, and well, quit those games, I find trying to get everyone on the same page cumbersome and drains the fun out of things rather than is fun in itself. “God we would have won if soandso knew what to do” as an example, and I see it all the time in SW map chat and why I feel that if any place is “toxic” (i really hate the term) it’s the mapchat in these types of encounters.

As for pros/cons, I acknowledge them, I just see it pointless to discuss them in depth as in the end it’s ANets decision that will be based on whatever information they have available. At this point I simply speak my mind on things. I’m not so quick to argue against logical cons to my point of view as I respect them. THe numbers argument for instance is a logical one. While I personally feel that diversity of content is important the numbers issue is certainly valid. Why create content for content for a smaller group? Well, I’d simply ask why ANet seems so adamant about the existence of challenging content when we all know full well that they’d be utilized by the minority? I don’t feel I need to elaborate on that even though I’ve done so in other threads. ANet will make the decision they see fit. I feel that going on and making another thread that derails to that discussion to be quite pointless as it’s been had and in the end it’s out of our hands anyways.

So at the end of the day my point in this thread is “here’s the stuff I’d like, here’s the issues I’d think it’d address if done correctly, and I hope it’s considered”.

I think it’s funny that people are saying Wildstar’s failure was due to raiding. It failed because it was a bad game. Wildstar failure is nothing compared to the unparalleled, unmatched success of World of Warcraft, whose PvE endgame is based on raiding.

And people double down (Not Jerus, in fairness).

It is the same. We’re just not wired to see it that way.

One side is saying “This content existing would enhance my game experience” the other is saying “This content existing would hurt my game experience”.

They’re 2 sides of the same coin. Until we get that through our heads there can be no legitimate discussion between the sides.

~~~

@J I’m about to leave work, and your post looks to deserve some long response, I"ll hit it from home.

Nokaru.7831:

I think it’s funny that people are saying Wildstar’s failure was due to raiding. It failed because it was a bad game. Wildstar failure is nothing compared to the unparalleled, unmatched success of World of Warcraft, whose PvE endgame is based on raiding.

Can’t be emphasized enough, as Wildstar’s Raiding is right up my alley it’s simply other elements that have kept me from it. Though I wouldn’t call it a bad game, it’s simply not as popular.

Windsagio.1340:

And people double down (Not Jerus, in fairness).

It is the same. We’re just not wired to see it that way.

One side is saying “This content existing would enhance my game experience” the other is saying “This content existing would hurt my game experience”.

They’re 2 sides of the same coin. Until we get that through our heads there can be no legitimate discussion between the sides.

Nope. If they were really 2 sides of the same coin then the other side would be saying “This content doesnt enhance my game experience”.

Besides the idea that it can hurt their game experience is completely false. Unless they are forcing themselves to play content they dont like. But in that case its their own fault.

Windsagio.1340:

One side is saying “This content existing would enhance my game experience” the other is saying “This content existing would hurt my game experience”.

Call it a quadruple down if you like, but you still haven’t explained to me (in a convincing way), nor has anybody else, why adding new content you don’t wish to play hurts your game experience.

And if more content you don’t like hurts your game experience, does less content help it? Would the removal of Fractals and dungeons and WvW and PvP improve the experience for open world PvEers?

I think that’s a ridiculous argument, but I’m curious why new content hurts and keeping existing content doesn’t, then?

(Also, Wind, I’m using the second-person “you” meaning “others,” not “you specifically.” I get the whole playing mediator thing you’re doing, I do it with my guild all the time, and props for trying to keep things on an even keel, even if I totally disagree with what you’re saying to do it.)

Wind, appreciate it, you know you’re one of the people I enjoy discussing things with on this forum even if we rarely agree.

As for raids, this is how I see one going:

Take a cut of the open world, no need for new art unless a new area is needed for mechanics (should be obvious what I mean later)

We’ll start with zoning into a field of enemies, clearing the field will allow the reinforcements to land prompting the NPCs to start the raid.

They’ll tell us what’s up, that we need to stop the flow of magic to Mordremoth’s general as well as defeat him, though it won’t be easy as he has 2 lieutenants defending him.

To stop the magic we need to place “jamming devices” at designated areas. So we start on that task.

To do this we grab a kit (no combat for those with kits) and bring them there, we can stealth through stuff and get to the area where stealth will be nullified and we have to clear the area to protect the jammers.

Here we have various enemy types including a new mordremoth minion the “skirmisher” who had rapid attacks (think axe5 warrior) promoting us to use Retal with healing to add a reasonable amount of damage killing them faster (promoting less used mechanics)

We clear places lay jammers, get it done. Split tactics would be ideal for faster time, but not necessary to get it done.

Then we approach the boss area that is split into 3 areas, one of the main boss (Treant), one for the first Lieutenant (Husk) and one for the second (Terragriff) This will force a split in your force.

• TREANT will unleash some very damaging attacks that active defense will be tough to rely on and will need a bit more. Thinking 25 stacks of bleed on an attack that will target large areas in a alternating circle (think Amber Troll) around him regularly, good condition cleanse and a lot of dodging will help but you will take some damage that needs to be healed. On top you’ll have a confusion attack set to hit cones around him, making using skills dangerous even though avoidance will be easier it’ll be very tough to avoid it all. So basically a heavy attrition fight were people will likely be prompted to build more defensively to make their job easier.

This encounter will have the boss invulnerable until his lieutenants are defeated (and openeing up passageways to have the people split off join in the main fight) if the boss is left alone for 15 seconds it will summon one of Mordremoth’s elite warriors to wipe everyone out. He’ll get additional attack when vulnerable such as a Shake animation that will proceed to pulse 25 stacks of bleed to everyone if he’s not interrupted with the new breakbar mechanic. He’ll also unleash direction HEAVY damage attack as a pretty fast pace in a random direction (no just circling like the VW troll and the range further) As well he’ll adopt the Lifeleach Thrasher attack that hits ranged enemies with vines however he’ll not be locked into that animation but simply trigger it and let it go for like 10 pulses prompting people to step up while it happens (on a 20s cooldown). It will be chillable though to extend that timer to promote more diversity of worthwhile mechanics. Then every once in a while he’ll do a somewhat quick stomp that will require a dodge and trigger a ceiling collapse that is unavoidable other than running out of the area before it drops, no standing there and dodging. He’ll also perodically deploy turrets and spawn mordrem adds to keep the fight chaotic (I wish I had a more evil emoji) Each spawn will add a set amount as well as double any remaining (I need a more evil emoji!)

Now on to the Lieutenants:

• Husk, of course high toughness but beyond that even the mastery to strip bark will still leave him quite resistant to physical attacks. Pushing for condition damage if it’s available. He will attack with standard husk attack as well as have a field of minions which instantly respawn. Think Copper husk, but with more. He’ll have a break bar attack of a pulsing poison attack with high damage, healing through it will be tough, rotating condition cleanses will help but CCing him will be ideal. He’ll also have an attack that if landed will strip a condition on a quick refresh, each target hit will strip one, one person screws up, ouch, a few people screw up…

Defeating him removes the bleed attack on the Treant and opens the passage, but don’t be too hasty to join if you’re not ready for the confusion attrition still existent in that room. Not that you can even damage the boss, but if your Treant team goes down you can jump in to save the raid from the complete wipe.

Now the other guy.

• Terragriff, he’ll charge like normal although his trail will be reduced in radius to allow melee if positioned correctly (and telegraph that radius better…grr) He will be susceptible to movement inhibiting conditions though the charge will ignore Immob however chill/cripple will lower it’s range and chill will increase it’s reuse by a noticeable amount such that you will have “burst windows” between charges. He will have a “breakbar” attack of a shout that will apply a pulsing 25 confusion stacks to everyone in the room. His leap will be countered by movement impeding conditions just like your normal Terragriff. His leap however when landing or tripping will unleash a room wide AE shockwave that needs to be dodged/blocked as well as cleansing his conditions. Every 25% he will call for a friend to join him doing the standard terragriff attacks with 1/4 of the health of this lieutenant. If these two get too close the shout will trigger without a breakbar, keeping them seperate with taunts/pulls will be critical.

Defeating this you win.

I think such an excusion would promote defensive play, condition damage, and the standard power damage, everyone having a spot. None of it will be required though, just encouraged through the use of mechanics that do so. If you were top notch you could endure the treant’s initial phase without defensive builds, Husk could be taken down with power damage and terragriff with conditions, though it’d likely be easier and arguably better to do it with the encouraged builds. Less used mechanics like Retal would come into play. Altering builds woudl be crucial, and with high HP on the bosses res utilities would likely become quite a godsend. It may not be a perfect example but I think it demonstrates how good content design could promotes more diverse approaches and solve a lot of those issues people like to point out about current dungeons.

I type this out as an example of what I mean that I think raids have the ability to bring GW2’s gameplay to the next level. So no TLDR even though it’s a wall of text, read it or don’t I don’t care. I’d love to see this game fully utilize all the mechanics it has available. It could be so much more. I cringe at the idea of it being held back because people don’t like challenge, I think the excuse of “it’s casual” to be complete horse manure because there’s no reason you can’t play the game casually and still learn to understand it’s tools and want something to push you. I’m not asking for all content to get like this at all, but I think an addition of something along these lines every once in a while would give the game that extra umph of challenge to change up pace.

spoj.9672:

Windsagio.1340:

And people double down (Not Jerus, in fairness).

It is the same. We’re just not wired to see it that way.

One side is saying “This content existing would enhance my game experience” the other is saying “This content existing would hurt my game experience”.

They’re 2 sides of the same coin. Until we get that through our heads there can be no legitimate discussion between the sides.

Nope. If they were really 2 sides of the same coin then the other side would be saying “This content doesnt enhance my game experience”.

Besides the idea that it can hurt their game experience is completely false. Unless they are forcing themselves to play content they dont like. But in that case its their own fault.

I’m trying to find a safe way to phrase this, just to make you understand how people feell

Essentially, adding raids can irrevocably change the tone and culture of a game, and plenty of people want nothing to do with that.

Here’s the dicey part:

I understand that you guys don’t get that because you like the raids and are comfortable with the associated culture. try to see it as others who don’t agree with you see it. What I see is people (on either side) only seeing their own side and being vociferous about it.

I don’t expect to convince you guys to change your minds, taste is taste. What I’m trying to convince people is that each side of the discussion has a legitimate place they’re coming from.

It’s up to Arenanet to weigh these competing needs (& their own design philosophies) and come to a decision as to whether to implement the feature…. and they surely already have made that decision, whatever it is.

I’m trying to get people to view the discussion the way Arenanet has to.

timmyf.1490:

Windsagio.1340:

One side is saying “This content existing would enhance my game experience” the other is saying “This content existing would hurt my game experience”.

Call it a quadruple down if you like, but you still haven’t explained to me (in a convincing way), nor has anybody else, why adding new content you don’t wish to play hurts your game experience.

And if more content you don’t like hurts your game experience, does less content help it? Would the removal of Fractals and dungeons and WvW and PvP improve the experience for open world PvEers?

I think that’s a ridiculous argument, but I’m curious why new content hurts and keeping existing content doesn’t, then?

(Also, Wind, I’m using the second-person “you” meaning “others,” not “you specifically.” I get the whole playing mediator thing you’re doing, I do it with my guild all the time, and props for trying to keep things on an even keel, even if I totally disagree with what you’re saying to do it.)

It’s a matter of resources, It’s a logical argument. To get more content in an area without losing some in others they’d need more manpower, more money. Otherwise it will cut in to the standard content as it would draw resources away to create the new content. My question is, how much. I don’t really want to get into this discussion as I feel like it’s been done often enough for it to be left for ANet to make the decision on, but it’s still there.

I like what other games have done in reusing artwork/zones and simply cutting them up to create instances for raids, saves a lot of resources.

Again though, I don’t feel it’s worth discussing these aspects. I could say the same about PVP or WvW stuff, but I don’t because it’s a waste of time, they address those areas because they do have people dovoted to it, if they deem it worthy using whatever means then they’ll develop it, if not, they won’t. Diversity of content is one of the things that makes MMOs shine though.

Jerus.4350:

Yeah, people suck (in general) with our emotions and all often getting the better of us and resorting to that “you suck” “no you suck” mentality. But, contributing to it never helps, I find just ignoring it works best and continue on with a reason based discussion, eventually those people will catch on that no one cares about their squabbling.

And personally I hate Open world in general, the only reason I do SW is I find the Amber Troll and Copper Husk, and the VW Troll and VW Thrasher to be mildly entertaining(shout out to Indigo Terragriffs, while I don’t enjoy doing them mainly due to people who either don’t know what they’re doing or intentionally griefing I find their design to be quite nice). I find it annoying that I find it best to just afk my way through the preperations waiting for the fun parts though. In general zerging literally puts me to sleep.

I don’t go on raving about how it’s killing the game though, I think it’s great, I just want options is all. It’s only logical that zergs limit challenge and that’s why instances were created some 14 years ago by multiple MMOs. If ANet comes up with a way to change this situation, I bow to them as I would think most MMO developers would as they’d have conquered a 15 year old problem that no game I know of has been able to do. They’ve made strides with the split stuff, but even then it’s just smaller zergs and doesn’t really solve the issue as a whole. And, my main problem with that is the challenge often becomes not the encounter itself but in herding the cats to actually accomplish the goal. There’s a reason I stopped leading large scale raids in other games, and well, quit those games, I find trying to get everyone on the same page cumbersome and drains the fun out of things rather than is fun in itself. “God we would have won if soandso knew what to do” as an example, and I see it all the time in SW map chat and why I feel that if any place is “toxic” (i really hate the term) it’s the mapchat in these types of encounters.

I’ll agree that mapchat in a place like SW can get ultra awful (ESPECIALLY WITH THE MISINFORMATION), and i get not enjoying that style of content.

Honestly though, I think that’s a style thing, and I strongly suspect it’s based in some pretty solid business decisions.

an aside as an example

At work, we had a discussion about UI’s for Gacha chests (ie Black lion chests). We were putting them in a building that looked pretty generic. An expert on the subject came in and in essence said “You’d be best served by making that building look like a treasure chest. If even 10% don’t understand it, that’s 10% who won’t go in there, and that’s a large source of monetization”. If you shave off 10% here and 10% there, your numbers can get pretty small.

Their style is to not shave players off with their content, presumably for exactly the same reason. Raid content shaves off a TON of users (ignoring the obviously fake ’I’M GONIG TO QUIT PLAYING!!!!’ people), and is a dead end. It likely does a pretty poor job at driving monetization.

As for pros/cons, I acknowledge them, I just see it pointless to discuss them in depth as in the end it’s ANets decision that will be based on whatever information they have available. At this point I simply speak my mind on things. I’m not so quick to argue against logical cons to my point of view as I respect them. THe numbers argument for instance is a logical one. While I personally feel that diversity of content is important the numbers issue is certainly valid. Why create content for content for a smaller group? Well, I’d simply ask why ANet seems so adamant about the existence of challenging content when we all know full well that they’d be utilized by the minority? I don’t feel I need to elaborate on that even though I’ve done so in other threads. ANet will make the decision they see fit. I feel that going on and making another thread that derails to that discussion to be quite pointless as it’s been had and in the end it’s out of our hands anyways.

So at the end of the day my point in this thread is “here’s the stuff I’d like, here’s the issues I’d think it’d address if done correctly, and I hope it’s considered”.

I’d agree with this, although I’m certainly guilty of getting sucked into the arguments and sometimes getting heated. My whole thing is I really really hate the “WELL THE OTHER SIDE IS JUST MORONS!” argument. It’s kind of un-thought and gets people all riled up to the point that we can’t even have discussions on some subjects at all (ie it’s impossible to talk about dungeon balance without going OMG ZERK ANTI ZERK – it’s the Godwin’s law of GW2).

Maybe it’s not my place to tell people to modify their attitude, but I’d enjoy having real discussions (if occasionally snarky) on the subject, and every escalation just kills it.

the above had to be snipped some to meet the 5000 char limit, sorry ><

I get the 5000 char limit, had a run in with it already here.

Just wanted to note about the “omg I’m gonna quit” people. In most games that’s often an ignorable thing, however with GW2 and it’s Gem store based income I think it’s a bit more intricate of an issue. To elaborate I’ll just use myself as an example. First 2 months of this game I dropped I believe an extra 125 into the game. Not a big deal for me for the enjoyment I was getting. I saw so much promise, I enjoyed myself thoroughly. It wasn’t until I realized that all the stuff I really enjoyed about this game had come to a screeching halt that I went as far as to regret spending that money, I mean realistically it was fair to pay for what I got, but ugh if I didn’t hate that there was nothing coming down the pike. I’d have no problem throwing that money if not more at a game that was keeping me entertained like this game was back then, but it’s not. So since then I’ve spent nothing.

So while players might not be quitting, they’re not spending either. It’s something I think they should consider and I would imagine they do. Just thought it was worth noting.

Windsagio.1340:

spoj.9672:

Windsagio.1340:

And people double down (Not Jerus, in fairness).

It is the same. We’re just not wired to see it that way.

One side is saying “This content existing would enhance my game experience” the other is saying “This content existing would hurt my game experience”.

They’re 2 sides of the same coin. Until we get that through our heads there can be no legitimate discussion between the sides.

Nope. If they were really 2 sides of the same coin then the other side would be saying “This content doesnt enhance my game experience”.

Besides the idea that it can hurt their game experience is completely false. Unless they are forcing themselves to play content they dont like. But in that case its their own fault.

I’m trying to find a safe way to phrase this, just to make you understand how people feell

Essentially, adding raids can irrevocably change the tone and culture of a game, and plenty of people want nothing to do with that.

Here’s the dicey part:

I understand that you guys don’t get that because you like the raids and are comfortable with the associated culture. try to see it as others who don’t agree with you see it. What I see is people (on either side) only seeing their own side and being vociferous about it.

I don’t expect to convince you guys to change your minds, taste is taste. What I’m trying to convince people is that each side of the discussion has a legitimate place they’re coming from.

It’s up to Arenanet to weigh these competing needs (& their own design philosophies) and come to a decision as to whether to implement the feature…. and they surely already have made that decision, whatever it is.

I’m trying to get people to view the discussion the way Arenanet has to.

And weve said repeatedly that GW2 is a completely different game. Theres not going to be a gear grind culture for raids so its basically impossible for raids to impact people who do not want to play them. Its like fractal dont effect anyone who doesnt play fractals currently.

I see exactly what you are trying to say. I just havent seen a single example of why raids would hurt or effect the overall game culture. An overall culture shift only happens when a gametype effects the entire game in a big way (new gear tiers exclusive to raids). Again it goes back to people falsely using raid experience from other games which do have gear tier progression from raids.

Also i dont really get why you are playing the mediator role. Ive never once said i dont understand the other side. Stop argueing on their behalf and let them backup their concerns with actual translatable reasons. They havent actually given a single valid arguement to backup their concerns in GW2. Saying “I dont want raids because i didnt like it in such and such completely different game” is in no way justification to cut development of raids in GW2. If you are going to say that at least give a reason why you didnt like it and translate that into GW2’s game philosophies.

Dinks.2478:

What does having raids have to do with turning a game into WoW? GW2 is nothing like WoW and neither is raiding. Raiding in games has existed long before WoW and will exist long after WoW. It is almost like people want actual content in GW2. Just because you’re content to join an open world map and spam 1 doesn’t mean everybody else is. If that is what you want to do then do it. But stop being selfish and trying to keep others from doing what they want to do as well.

It’s instanced raiding, and WoW popularized it. EQ1 had raiding, but not instanced raiding until later… as the game began to fail after that point once introduced. EQ2 had instanced raiding, but EQ2 was never really popularized, not within the existing player base of the genre, it always suffered from the design decisions. Then came WoW and popularized instanced raiding, and from there every WoW clone had to have, and every WoWkitten newbie (the hoards of Blizzard fanbois who suddenly discovered mmo’s) had to swarm every existing mmo game/forum and demand it like the plague.

Instanced raiding is not even “mmorpg”, it’s casual multi-player gaming. It’s about as stupid as Barny the Dinosaur. I fail to even rationalize why they call it a “raid”. It has nothing to do with the actual persistent game world with other players, just an instanced copy of the game to play on your own time and choosing. That’s no “raid”.

You see, in REAL raiding, players do not raid the MOB’s, the MOB’s raid the players. That’s how it started, and sadly only few games still do this.

As for your presumption of what I do in this game, I don’t 1 1 1. Well.. apart from some of the more lame world boss events when I’m just doing the circuit and like Shatterer happens to be up next or whatever. But for PvE I mostly do temple assaults. It’s about as close to real raiding as you can get to in this game. Better early on though, it’s been hit with the casual hammer a couple times easier and shorter on most