Guild Wars 2

I have completed map completion. I’ll tell you, I wish I hadn’t. Each challenge is worth ten times the amount of hero points in maguuma. So my 200 hero points were grinded up the most inefficient way possible.

I expected horizontal progression. Elite specs were marketed as horizontal progression. Being a form of progression I expected to have achieve that progression, not be granted it for free.

I get what your saying, I really do but i think the train of thought was wrong

Dhampyr.2813:

I expected horizontal progression. Elite specs were marketed as horizontal progression. Being a form of progression I expected to have achieve that progression, not be granted it for free.

I get what your saying, I really do but i think the train of thought was wrong

Horizontal progression is fine. Forcing people to spend points on trait lines that they do not want is a problem. 400 hero points is also way too many. This is the single largest anti alt decision that ANET has ever made.

Really bad move

I agree. I haven’t gotten upset at many things for HoT, after all, it’s not even out yet. But I really wanted to experience a new zone with a new style of play together. But what irks me the most, is that my hours of time spent doing map completion was rendered absurdly inefficient. For every single challenge in Maguuma, I basically had to do 10 challenges in Tyria. Despite wanting to play the new elites in Tyria, I can’t find a single reason why I’d want to spend tomorrow grinding more skill points knowing that I’m putting in ten times the effort than I would if I waited until tomorrow.

Dhampyr.2813:

I expected horizontal progression. Elite specs were marketed as horizontal progression. Being a form of progression I expected to have achieve that progression, not be granted it for free.

I get what your saying, I really do but i think the train of thought was wrong

They were not marketed as horizontal progression. Explain in detail why you feel that way and please reference comments made by the ArenaNet staff the validate (make sure you provide links). I will accept if I’m wrong about this, but I’ve read quite a bit and have been looking for such comments hidden in the cracks. I think you’re wrong.

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FinalPatriot.8034:

And this reminds me why I did not preorder the game. I think I’ll wait a while and see how this gets resolved.

As a casual player, this pretty much kills the game for me.

What really concerns me though with HoT is there is now, ANOTHER controversy about the xPack. Why did they just not release all this information long time ago and not within 72hrs of launch?

Because they knew players would be kittened off and they didn’t want to take away from the hype

That’s the thing, if they had stated this info much earlier, there wouldn’t be as much issue with the amount needed. Players would have time to adjust expectations and have a reasonable amount of time to get max hero points on all characters they planned to get the elite on except revenant.

Eh I don’t think so for many players, because that still means slogging through maps over and over and over and over and over…

Maybe slightly less stress for wvwers if they were allowed to start buying these notarized scrolls 6 months ago.

Overall, I call foul and this hype train jumped on the dhuum tracks with this one. Just wait until the players who don’t visit the forums open up their character panel on launch day lol

I didn’t say it would go away. Just that it wouldn’t be as huge.

1. There would have been time for ANet to work out a compromise if they wanted to.

2. Players would have had a decent amount of time to get more core Tyria hero points to reduce the number needed when HoT launches.

3. Players wouldn’t have had the feeling that ANet might have kept quiet about it because they knew it would be an unpopular decision.

Post 1 implies that the players would be more accepting of the amount needed because they adjusted their own expectations. You made no mention of developer possible changes in the first post like you did in the second post.

In post 1 I argued they would still have an issue because the system would be the same regardless of announcement timing.

Post 2 states the devs could possibly make changes and players would be less stress given more time. You made no mention of anything related to number 3 in your first post.

Those two posts expressed two very different messages… Sorry

I’ve posted more than twice in this thread. Please quote the message. Thank you.

Edit: I’m beginning to think you’re the one with the reading comprehension problem and it’s not a case of a misunderstanding. This is the third time I’ve asked you to quote the message.

I edited the original so go back and look at it. We could have others analyze it and they would tell you your messages were different. Go look at it

Yea, it says the same thing in different words. And expanded out. I’m supposed to just copy and paste my responses because heaven forbid I say more in a later post. Or just paraphrase and never add anything else to my posts? Really?

“As much of an issue” does not mean that people who have an issue suddenly don’t have an issue.

If on a scale of 1 to 10 with 1 being no issue and 10 huge issue, “as much of an issue” could mean going from 10 on the scale down to 8. Where it’s still an important issue to you, just not as much of an issue.

So not seeing how my two posts say differing things. The second says the same as the first and goes into more details.

Lol

Guess you’re ceding this argument to me, if you can’t come up with anything more than a lol.

And unless you’re next response is a serious response, I’m done with you as you apparently don’t have anything more to say.

Lol was because you don’t pay attention to what you write and would rather blame me for your lack of comprehension. Perhaps you should go back and reread things, then reflect on the way you communicate so you can learn to be clear the first time with your “intended messages”.

I pay attention to what I write, thank you very much. I’m not seeing where my messages are different. I’m really not. So maybe you can enlighten me. Instead of just saying they are different. Because that’s how good communication goes. When one person gets a different interpretation each should say how they view it so that both can see where the wires got crossed. You just saying you’re reading it differently makes me think you’ve since changed your mind but are too proud to say otherwise. While that may not be true, it is one interpretation. And the one I shall take until such time as you explain to me in detail (and not just quoting my messages and/or saying they are different) how they are different.

I already explained the differences in your two posts.

I’m not going to drag on this off topic stuff because I’d rather devote my words to the hero point rebellion.

Good luck with your future posts!

Very shady move by ANET. 400 is ridiculous

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FinalPatriot.8034:

And this reminds me why I did not preorder the game. I think I’ll wait a while and see how this gets resolved.

As a casual player, this pretty much kills the game for me.

What really concerns me though with HoT is there is now, ANOTHER controversy about the xPack. Why did they just not release all this information long time ago and not within 72hrs of launch?

Because they knew players would be kittened off and they didn’t want to take away from the hype

That’s the thing, if they had stated this info much earlier, there wouldn’t be as much issue with the amount needed. Players would have time to adjust expectations and have a reasonable amount of time to get max hero points on all characters they planned to get the elite on except revenant.

Eh I don’t think so for many players, because that still means slogging through maps over and over and over and over and over…

Maybe slightly less stress for wvwers if they were allowed to start buying these notarized scrolls 6 months ago.

Overall, I call foul and this hype train jumped on the dhuum tracks with this one. Just wait until the players who don’t visit the forums open up their character panel on launch day lol

I didn’t say it would go away. Just that it wouldn’t be as huge.

1. There would have been time for ANet to work out a compromise if they wanted to.

2. Players would have had a decent amount of time to get more core Tyria hero points to reduce the number needed when HoT launches.

3. Players wouldn’t have had the feeling that ANet might have kept quiet about it because they knew it would be an unpopular decision.

Post 1 implies that the players would be more accepting of the amount needed because they adjusted their own expectations. You made no mention of developer possible changes in the first post like you did in the second post.

In post 1 I argued they would still have an issue because the system would be the same regardless of announcement timing.

Post 2 states the devs could possibly make changes and players would be less stress given more time. You made no mention of anything related to number 3 in your first post.

Those two posts expressed two very different messages… Sorry

I’ve posted more than twice in this thread. Please quote the message. Thank you.

Edit: I’m beginning to think you’re the one with the reading comprehension problem and it’s not a case of a misunderstanding. This is the third time I’ve asked you to quote the message.

I edited the original so go back and look at it. We could have others analyze it and they would tell you your messages were different. Go look at it

Yea, it says the same thing in different words. And expanded out. I’m supposed to just copy and paste my responses because heaven forbid I say more in a later post. Or just paraphrase and never add anything else to my posts? Really?

“As much of an issue” does not mean that people who have an issue suddenly don’t have an issue.

If on a scale of 1 to 10 with 1 being no issue and 10 huge issue, “as much of an issue” could mean going from 10 on the scale down to 8. Where it’s still an important issue to you, just not as much of an issue.

So not seeing how my two posts say differing things. The second says the same as the first and goes into more details.

Lol

Guess you’re ceding this argument to me, if you can’t come up with anything more than a lol.

And unless you’re next response is a serious response, I’m done with you as you apparently don’t have anything more to say.

Lol was because you don’t pay attention to what you write and would rather blame me for your lack of comprehension. Perhaps you should go back and reread things, then reflect on the way you communicate so you can learn to be clear the first time with your “intended messages”.

I pay attention to what I write, thank you very much. I’m not seeing where my messages are different. I’m really not. So maybe you can enlighten me. Instead of just saying they are different. Because that’s how good communication goes. When one person gets a different interpretation each should say how they view it so that both can see where the wires got crossed. You just saying you’re reading it differently makes me think you’ve since changed your mind but are too proud to say otherwise. While that may not be true, it is one interpretation. And the one I shall take until such time as you explain to me in detail (and not just quoting my messages and/or saying they are different) how they are different.

I already explained the differences in your two posts.

I’m not going to drag on this off topic stuff because I’d rather devote my words to the hero point rebellion.

Good luck with your future posts!

You explained how I worded it differently. Not how the meaning was different. There’s a difference.

But I’ll agree to disagree as well.

Sorean.5379:

It works just like any other training line – except all the skills, traits, skins, abilities, etc. are all inside one full training line that costs 400 points to get everything in the entire line. It costs 60 points to unlock and be able to play as the elite specialization itself.

The way I see it,to play as the Specialization itself you only need 60 points.

The rest is used to unlock the armor skin,weapon skin and the runes.

If you want to play as a Dragonhunter for example,all you need is 60 points and you will already be able to wield a Longbow and your profession icon will change to the Dragonhunter one.

Pretty sure you’re wrong. 60 points unlocks the traitline. But it will take an unknown amount of points to unlock the traits and utility skills.

sharkswithlazers.7632:

I have completed map completion. I’ll tell you, I wish I hadn’t. Each challenge is worth ten times the amount of hero points in maguuma. So my 200 hero points were grinded up the most inefficient way possible.

Sorry, how long did it take you?

Have you read through https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/cdi/CDI-Character-Progression-Horizontal/first ? A lot of how the elites shaped up came out of that community discussion, so while they may not have been marketed that way it certainly was the forum community impression.

I do think (though I’m not sure) that Mike and Colin talked about horizontal progression for characters in the original HoT announcement at PAX South, as part of why there would be no level cap raise.

Donari.5237:

I do think (though I’m not sure) that Mike and Colin talked about horizontal progression for characters in the original HoT announcement at PAX South, as part of why there would be no level cap raise.

Mastery’s fullfill that objective just fine.

Oh, I agree. I’m just saying that I think they have included the horizontalness of Elites in their hype/marketing/infodumps on HoT. Apologies for no links, it’s after 1 am and I’m reeling … how the heck am I gonna be awake 3 am Friday ….?

SamTheGuardian.2938:

My biggest problem with it is this, why am I being forced to unlock core specializations that I never use in order to get to my Elite Spec?

You do not become a blackbelt in matrial arts without first obtaining the lower level belts, its basically the same theory.

I can support horizontal progression, but why wait so long to tell us that magnitude of time it’s going to take to unlock the very thing that has kept the hype train going for months? We knew about the mastery system very early on. It was one of the first posts, if I remember correctly. But we were confronted with this news like… what, yesterday? Elite specializations are exciting, but are they so good that I’m willing to log on my guardian and grind 200-400 hero points, then log to my 2 eles, 2 rangers, 2 warriors, 2 mesmers, my engie, my thief, and my necro and do it again? Somewhere in the long time spent grinding I’d probably also want a revenant. Oh and maybe to enjoy the new raids… new wvw… new story. Those last bits are the parts I want to try the most, but what I’ll be spending my vast majority of time on is grinding all of my characters up to have elites… that’s not fun and it’s especially frustrating when they’ve been dangling these specs in front of us for months and they now feel even farther away than ever before.

Besides, didn’t they mention at some time that a character with map completion should have enough to play the elite spec? Maybe that was player talk but I was so sure it was a dev blog post that said it.

This does not deserve a new thread, expect it to be merged.

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sharkswithlazers.7632:

I have completed map completion. I’ll tell you, I wish I hadn’t. Each challenge is worth ten times the amount of hero points in maguuma. So my 200 hero points were grinded up the most inefficient way possible.

Sorry, how long did it take you?

I dunno how long it took me exactly with each toon. But I can tell you that if I wanted to grind hero points, running around queensdale trying to grab 10 hero points would take far longer than going to a single hero challenge in Maguuma. I’m still only “half” way there. I put half in quotes because I’d bet that getting 20 hero challenges in maguuma would be far less time consuming that 200 in tyria.

sharkswithlazers.7632:

Sorean.5379:

It works just like any other training line – except all the skills, traits, skins, abilities, etc. are all inside one full training line that costs 400 points to get everything in the entire line. It costs 60 points to unlock and be able to play as the elite specialization itself.

The way I see it,to play as the Specialization itself you only need 60 points.

The rest is used to unlock the armor skin,weapon skin and the runes.

If you want to play as a Dragonhunter for example,all you need is 60 points and you will already be able to wield a Longbow and your profession icon will change to the Dragonhunter one.

Pretty sure you’re wrong. 60 points unlocks the traitline. But it will take an unknown amount of points to unlock the traits and utility skills.

Correct. Confirmed by Colin and this is a point of confusion for many saying “it’s not that bad”. For your core specializations 60 points not only unlocks but also maxes (does full trait unlock) on a specialization tree/trait line….. For the Elite specs it’s going to be 60 hero points just for the unlock byou will need another 170-200 hero points to take that trait line for zero to max and create a viable Elite Spec build to play with on the difficult level 80 maps. The last set of hero points will get you the elite skins, weapon mods, etc…

No they did say we can play it if we did world completion, but they didn’t say to what extent we could. They have now confirmed 60 points will unlock the elite. So while we can “play” the spec it wont be optimal.

Dhampyr.2813:

No they did say we can play it if we did world completion, but they didn’t say to what extent we could. They have now confirmed 60 points will unlock the elite. So while we can “play” the spec it wont be optimal.

A trait line on a specialization that’s not maxed will not be viable for play on max level maps. You will be able to equipted you elite spec weapon but do nothing useful with it on the HoT maps.

Dhampyr.2813:

No they did say we can play it if we did world completion, but they didn’t say to what extent we could. They have now confirmed 60 points will unlock the elite. So while we can “play” the spec it wont be optimal.

Are you serious? Simply saying “I have the druid traitline unlocked, I can click it and see all the skills I don’t have” is not the same as “unlocking” an elite spec. That’s like handing me a deflated basketball. Thanks buddy. That’s pedantic semantics.

I don’t care that they changed their mind. It was still in development, but like, that’s almost certainly not what they had in mind. I’m just bummed that they waited up until the last moments before its release to bum everyone out with a really large amount of grind required before you can begin having fun with your classes you’ve been hyped about for a year now. I’m also bummed that more than just telling us that our map completion is now no longer enough, but that it was quite literally a waste of time because you could get those points in Maguuma ten times as fast…. that was just a poor decision.

Having nearly completed my third GWAMM and 50 level 80’s i welcome this challenge and should have all 50 characters fully unlocked by the 4th of July.

That’s next year, Monk Tank. And if I understand masteries right, they’re account bound. So you unlock the ability to travel and it’s a simple matter of just toon hopping and traipsing over to the next skill point.

Small point about #3: don’t expect other people to know more than you, or know better than you. What Anet does isn’t some form of mysticism. It is regular ole decision making that we the players have. All the analytics in the world won’t compensate for bad decision making. Chances are, any person in any position is equally as incompetent as you or I would be in that position.

That said, the whole thing reeks of bad intentional design. We’ve learned recently that hero points on the base map were designed to be obsolete, and Anet is making the same mistake they made 5 months ago when they wanted us to have 70 or so hero points to unlock our regular specs after leveling.

Ill agree that it does not truly count as unlocked and most players wont play there elites until its fully unlocked. But it is unlocked, I’m willing to bet it will be in a more playable state if you did world completion. I’m glade some players get a head start

Dhampyr.2813:

Ill agree that it does not truly count as unlocked and most players wont play there elites until its fully unlocked. But it is unlocked, I’m willing to bet it will be in a more playable state if you did world completion. I’m glade some players get a head start

Don’t get me wrong, I’m glad I get a head start. But we were operating under the assumption that grinding out a few more world explorations meant we wouldn’t have to grind in HoT for our specs and that we could just start enjoying them. What irks me most though, as I’ve said, is really that we put in just like… a ton of effort for half of the reward we wanted. Then furthermore we find out that we could have put in a tenth of the effort in Maguuma because we grinded 200 discreet hero challenges rather than 20 maguuma hero challenges.

And neither of you are considering the players who don’t have world competition on any character…. World complementation is optional sub system in the game. The assumption that everyone has it on at least one character is ridiculous. Some players went on to PvP or WvW after finishing the last dungeon and completing their personal story line and that was an acceptable thing to do and a very rational thing for a player without a lot of time in game to choose to do.

Had we known it’s importance months ago we might have chosen to spend some time on it, but they purposely waited until the week of release to drop this information.

In other shreds I said it’s horrible design. Actually it’s worse, it’s intentionally grind inducing, greed-driven design.

SamTheGuardian.2938:

1.) It just doesn’t make sense to punish the more casual players this way

Once you unlock whatever rank of masteries that is required for access to the hero points, it will likely be way easier to get the elite spec with your alts than doing central Tyrian map completion over and over again.

Since they announced this, I have spent 3 hours a day just running hero challenges. I am now sitting at 202 Hero Points on my Ranger… Now when patch hits, I will be headed to the jungle to find the new pets (i am a wvw only kind of player…) While I am there I plan on getting as many of the hero challenges that are accessible without masteries. From there I will use wxp boosters and possibly Edge of the Mist to grind WvW ranks as fast as possible to unlock more of Maguuma’s Hero Challenges.

On a side note… I will not be playing the Druid until it has all the skills / traits I like unlocked.

SamTheGuardian.2938:

And neither of you are considering the players who don’t have world competition on any character…. World complementation is optional sub system in the game. The assumption that everyone has it on at least one character is ridiculous. Some players went on to PvP or WvW after finishing the last dungeon and completing their personal story line and that was an acceptable thing to do and a very rational thing for a player without a lot of time in game to choose to do.

Had we known it’s importance months ago we might have chosen to spend some time on it, but they purposely waited until the week of release to drop this information.

In other shreds I said it’s horrible design. Actually it’s worse, it’s intentionally grind inducing, greed-driven design.

I actually disagree with you here. I have several pvp made toons with like 1% map completion (kitten me, right?) and knowing now that I need 400 mastery points to get them their elite specs completely takes away my motivation to map explore. Map exploring to prepare for HoT is like grinding for a legendary by farming ambient creatures. It’s stupid inefficient.

Daddar.5971:

Does A-Net realize that the karma train in EotM is gonna be a HUGE thing? That’s the most efficient way for a WvW player to earn the hero points. I HATE EotM, but it’s better than PvE… so I’m gonna spend several MONTHS running in a karma train (to get the elite on all 19 toons) rather than fighting in WvW as I’d rather be doing.

Not just WvW ranks… Badges rain in EoTM… The drop rate for badges in normal WvW is horrible.

style.6173:

Dhampyr.2813:

I expected horizontal progression. Elite specs were marketed as horizontal progression. Being a form of progression I expected to have achieve that progression, not be granted it for free.

I get what your saying, I really do but i think the train of thought was wrong

Horizontal progression is fine. Forcing people to spend points on trait lines that they do not want is a problem. 400 hero points is also way too many. This is the single largest anti alt decision that ANET has ever made.

Really bad move

Actually MMORPGS traditionally dont encourage making several characters. They are supposed to be about you living a second life, in a completely different world. You pick a character and you become that character. The content on these kind of games are supposed to take so long to complete that the very idea of alt swapping to do them again should be absurd.

A lot of people intuitively still feel this way. The character most people start on or have been through most of the game with is what they identify with. You might read a lot of people saying that they are going to re roll because their class has x or y issues but they will never feel the same way about the class they are swapping to as they do their original.

So it really doesnt matter how many points it takes and how elite specs are unlocked as long as it is a fun experience, fun to use the class and fun to play the content. What you guys should be more worried about is if the new content will give much more rewarding, challenging and entertaining experiences and not bedtime stories like the base game.

I’m just going to leave this here, I lead a small to medium (25 top out) guild, I don’t play forum wars but I do read them, when this was brought to my attention I decided to come give my 2 cents.

I have not pre-purchased but was planning on purchasing come Friday, you can forget that sale. My guild has voted that if this goes through we are done, one or two may stay behind but the majority vote was you have bent players over long enough. Wild star just went F2P and already have a better customer service rep then Arena Net.

Once again I may not participate in the forums as much as I should, but as the minority that doesn’t speak out I can honestly say you are out of touch with your game and community. I wish you the best of luck in the future.

signed … at least 19 players gone and 17 sales.

For those of us with many characters, this is a huge slap in the face.

My solution is they create an elite spec mastery (or equiv) that unlocks all the elite specs on all your characters at the same time.

This mastery would unlock by completing HPs in the exact same way but when you hit that half way point or wherever the abilities are fully unlocked it unlocks them for all classes. Then they can keep the grind in there (Although i would be 100% okay with it requiring no HPs for all the abilities… seriously kitten you arena net, for this and tempest)

Then for all the armor/weaps w/e other junk in the elite spec track must be done on the individual character.

This would solve the ability issue, and ridiculous farm for multiple characters and still give the grind for the unique items. doing the same content 9 times (more if you have more than one of each class) is kittening ridiculous.

I too do not usually post in the forums, choosing to keep my opinion to myself. But if ArenaNet does listen to its players, then I want to be one of those calling for change.

I too feel that 400 HP to unlock the elite specialization is too high. However, I do think that the # you can get doing all map completion in the current Tyria map in Guild Wars 2 is acceptable.

When ArenaNet started boasting about the elite specializations, it sounded like a new profession that would be unlocked for all to play if they so chose. Now, less than 1 week from launch we learn that we’ll need 400 Hero Points to unlock everything the elite spec. has to offer. I certainly hope that the majority of that is fluff and not actual skills, traits, etc. I feel like we should have been able to have the skills and traits from day one IF we had the Hero Points from doing full map completion in the first game.

My two cents for what it’s worth.

Ragion.2831:

style.6173:

Dhampyr.2813:

I expected horizontal progression. Elite specs were marketed as horizontal progression. Being a form of progression I expected to have achieve that progression, not be granted it for free.

I get what your saying, I really do but i think the train of thought was wrong

Horizontal progression is fine. Forcing people to spend points on trait lines that they do not want is a problem. 400 hero points is also way too many. This is the single largest anti alt decision that ANET has ever made.

Really bad move

Actually MMORPGS traditionally dont encourage making several characters. They are supposed to be about you living a second life, in a completely different world. You pick a character and you become that character. The content on these kind of games are supposed to take so long to complete that the very idea of alt swapping to do them again should be absurd.

A lot of people intuitively still feel this way. The character most people start on or have been through most of the game with is what they identify with. You might read a lot of people saying that they are going to re roll because their class has x or y issues but they will never feel the same way about the class they are swapping to as they do their original.

So it really doesnt matter how many points it takes and how elite specs are unlocked as long as it is a fun experience, fun to use the class and fun to play the content. What you guys should be more worried about is if the new content will give much more rewarding, challenging and entertaining experiences and not bedtime stories like the base game.

Except in this one it IS that way. They explicitly stated that the unlike most MMORPGs GW2 was designed to encourage you to play on an alt for end-game content. That was a large part of their thinking behind the branching personal story lines (a feature that ultimately failed). I don’t know any players who always play on the same character in this game.

SamTheGuardian.2938:

1.) It just doesn’t make sense to punish the more casual players this way
No one expected the Elite Specializations to be our reward for finishing Heart of Thorns, we expected to be able to play Heart of Thorns with them… for players who don’t have the 200+ points banked from core game map completion, they will have to wait until they are about 70% into the game to have enough unlocked to make a viable build(70% into Heart of Thorns, 3 maps with 400 hero points. about 133 hero points per map, map unlock likely dependent on mastery unlock so expect layered grind).

So, uh, source for these numbers? We know that each elite spec needs 400 points, and…that’s the only number you got correct that we know. There’s 4 maps, not 3, and we have no idea how many hero points there will be total. Are you assuming that there’s exactly 400 points in the jungle? Though considering that you don’t even know how many maps HoT is shipping with, I doubt any of your other assumptions are any better.

SamTheGuardian.2938:

Except in this one it IS that way. They explicitly stated that the unlike most MMORPGs GW2 was designed to encourage you to play on an alt for end-game content. That was a large part of their thinking behind the branching personal story lines (a feature that ultimately failed). I don’t know any players who always play on the same character in this game.

LOL did they? as usual they do things they will later have to regret. You cant design a game like an MMORPG that allows players to breeze through the content, hop onto another toon and do it again other wise you would either have to be coming out with an expansion every year just to keep the older players engaged or hope that new players keep running through the gates.

They should have just allowed class merging.

Might as well start a suggestion thread like this. I like the idea so I’ll offer mine as well. My suggestion is much simpler and requires to changes.

1.) Remove the ridiculous requirement that all of our core specializations be unlocked prior to elite specialization unlock. Most people unlock have unlocked the specializations they want to play with (the game was designed that way after all).

2.). Make the elite spec unlock itself (what they are charging 60 hero points for now) completely free, but make it so a player must spend 60 hero points to take the elite spec trait line from 0 to max, where max = all traits unlocked and optimal builds available without the elite armor skins, etc.. Take the other 340 hero point demands and make it so if they want the elite spec armor skin, weapon, etc…that portion of the elite spec remains heavily achievement based. That would give players the elite skins, elite runes, etc… to work towards along with Mastery’s of course and at the same time make the Elite Specs available very early on.

This works as well, It would be nice if it was all linked, but if it only took like 6 HPs to unlock the abilities of the elite spec (assuming you unlocked all the other trees first for already created characters) at least it would be obtainable quickly for alts and such.

I’m glad to see those that aren’t forum warriors like some of us speaking up. Pay attention Anet, you turned happy time into lynch time.

Vavume.8065:

SamTheGuardian.2938:

My biggest problem with it is this, why am I being forced to unlock core specializations that I never use in order to get to my Elite Spec?

You do not become a blackbelt in matrial arts without first obtaining the lower level belts, its basically the same theory.

This is a bad analogy, and doesn’t fit the rhetoric we were fed regarding “Elite” Specializations. Per the developers themselves, Elite Specs aren’t supposed to be direct upgrades. They aren’t supposed to be required, and they aren’t supposed to make you more powerful than your base class. They’re supposed to be trade-offs that offer alternate playstyle and/or utility that the core class lacked. For most classes, this is accurate. About the only class getting a raw, direct upgrade is Necromancer -> Reaper, and that’s only because base Necromancer is, by most accounts, a trash heap.

The 5 existing core specs for each class aren’t lower level belts. The Elite Spec isn’t a black belt. You’re not supposed to be required to use it. It occupies one of the same 3 slots that any other trait line would occupy, and has the inherent trade-offs associated with it. By stated design intent, it’s an option for players to play their class in a new, unique way. It’s also a major selling point of the expansion pack. If it were a raw power upgrade, and was billed as such, then sure, it would make (some) sense to require “mastery” (see what I did there?) of your core class before you could unlock the “upgrade” but Elite Specs were never once pitched as an upgrade.

Basically, your analogy is perfectly fine in a parallel universe where Anet described Elite Specializations as direct upgrades, they didn’t occupy existing build mechanics (thus were ‘free’ and had no downsides to using them) and Anet expected/demanded everyone to use them. In this universe, the unlock structure says “upgrade, direct player progression, mandatory” while the actual mechanics say “optional, side-grade, but potentially really fun and refreshing new toy.”

The fun new-but-not-necessarily-more-powerful thing that people have been excited for for months has been walled up behind a grind that says Do X, Y number of times until your character improves in power by Z%. The input isn’t matching the output.

Back to Engineers (I use them as an example because it’s really obvious to people, even those that don’t play the class, that their lines are extremely different in terms of style and flavor) — At a conceptual level, a Scrapper’s Drones aren’t supposed to be better than Turrets or Elixirs. Drones are supposed to be new and different. Turrets don’t require the player to first master Elixirs, because they have nothing to do with each other. Likewise, Elixirs don’t require the player to first master Turrets. However, Drones, which are not supposed to be better and are not supposed to completely supplant Elixirs or Turrets for some inexplicable reason require the player to have mastered both Elixirs and Turrets. It’s faulty logic, and a transparent attempt at forcing a grind and content funnel.

SamTheGuardian.2938:

And neither of you are considering the players who don’t have world competition on any character…. World complementation is optional sub system in the game. The assumption that everyone has it on at least one character is ridiculous. Some players went on to PvP or WvW after finishing the last dungeon and completing their personal story line and that was an acceptable thing to do and a very rational thing for a player without a lot of time in game to choose to do.

Had we known it’s importance months ago we might have chosen to spend some time on it, but they purposely waited until the week of release to drop this information.

In other shreds I said it’s horrible design. Actually it’s worse, it’s intentionally grind inducing, greed-driven design.

You absolutely do not need world completion to max out an elite spec. I deliberately chose not to worry about it and I feel vindicated (in that decision) by the most recent information: I need ‘only’ 40 challenges in the new zones to max it out and I have enough on nearly every L80 to start an elite character.

Mind you, I think ANet went overboard in the requirements — I think they misunderstood how many people would want to max out right away and they should have balanced the idea of progression with that.

The odd thing about specializations is that in any other MMO, they would have increased the level cap and you’d get your new skills by simply leveling. Other MMOs allow you to play however you want while GW2 forces you into a specific task.

Masteries are meant to be the alternative to increasing the level cap. Specializations are however meant to be character progression, whereas masteries are account progression. They could have either allowed you to level a specialization per character or offered each specialization as a mastery. Offering all specializations in a single mastery would have been either far too trivial or an incredible grind.

The main problem is that GW2 has been too casual, so people will complain about something as trivial as having to actually play the game. They should have never for example allowed people to tome their way to 80. Back before they added XP and skill point consumables, if you didn’t want to do skill challenges, you had to grind XP at 80 for a single point.

SamTheGuardian.2938:

1.) Remove the ridiculous requirement that all of our core specializations be unlocked prior to elite specialization unlock.

The only reason you’re given enough points through leveling is because people complained about losing access to what they already had. Those points are solely intended for the core specs. Be careful, ArenaNet might just make it so those core specs are automatically unlocked as you level instead of giving you a choice.

Healix.5819:

The odd thing about specializations is that in any other MMO, they would have increased the level cap and you’d get your new skills by simply leveling. Other MMOs allow you to play however you want while GW2 forces you into a specific task.

Masteries are meant to be the alternative to increasing the level cap. Specializations are however meant to be character progression, whereas masteries are account progression. They could have either allowed you to level a specialization per character or offered each specialization as a mastery. Offering all specializations in a single mastery would have been either far too trivial or an incredible grind.

The main problem is that GW2 has been too casual, so people will complain about something as trivial as having to actually play the game. They should have never for example allowed people to tome their way to 80. Back before they added XP and skill point consumables, if you didn’t want to do skill challenges, you had to grind XP at 80 for a single point.

SamTheGuardian.2938:

1.) Remove the ridiculous requirement that all of our core specializations be unlocked prior to elite specialization unlock.

The only reason you’re given enough points through leveling is because people complained about losing access to what they already had. Those points are solely intended for the core specs. Be careful, ArenaNet might just make it so those core specs are automatically unlocked as you level instead of giving you a choice.

But this isn’t any other mmo, its an mmo that is designed to be accessible to casual players. It also advertises play the way you want to play. Now I plan on playing the expansion game once through, Just like I 100%ed on one character (going for my second 100% only because of wanting a 3rd legendary) but the rest of my characters don’t even have their stories completed, they are just used occasionally for alts when I need/want another class in dungeons or such.

But if elite specs become necessary (or I just want to play them) in raids and fractals at high level play, then that means I have to go farm Maguma 100% runs on every kittening character. No, I don’t care if its slightly faster because I’ll have gliding/jumping unlocked, I still have to repeat content multiple times, content that is likely to not have any enjoyment of replay value for me)

Now I’m in a better position than most because the majority of my characters dont leave PvP so they will have it unlocked when i play them, but for the few that I will be running PvE content with I have to spend hours of my life farming HPs so I can play what I actually want to play.

400 is good enough, no reason to make class specific content instantly available but rather a way of character progression

I’ve submitted for a refund based on the fact that a selling point was raids which will not be released. The cost of Elites was the nail in the coffin but hey partial content is a direct scam, The fact that Anet yet again did not show us the courtesy of at least replying … you have the right to demand a refund for products not provided with purchase.

Example is raids: We paid for them with the xpac, they couldn’t deliver, if you are unhappy hit them with a refund.

Endlos.4852:

Vavume.8065:

SamTheGuardian.2938:

My biggest problem with it is this, why am I being forced to unlock core specializations that I never use in order to get to my Elite Spec?

You do not become a blackbelt in matrial arts without first obtaining the lower level belts, its basically the same theory.

This is a bad analogy, and doesn’t fit the rhetoric we were fed regarding “Elite” Specializations. Per the developers themselves, Elite Specs aren’t supposed to be direct upgrades.

Actually It’s a perfectly good analogy, Elite specs are something you have to work up to, just as you do with a black belt, you cannot skip stages, and you cannot skip traitlines, all must be completed first before unlocking the elite. I’m sorry if you are unable to see that, but it’s a fact.

With 400hp requirement my hypetrain slowed down a little.
I hope that my 213hp will be enough to at least unlock all traits, coz I really wanted to go exploring new maps with my glorious Reaper on with my Twilight equipped.

I think it would be much better if old map completion could give you enough hp to go straight elite.
And for Maguuma hp to be required if you want exclusive class skins.

Once again if you’re happy with how everything went down I wish you the best of luck going forward I hope you enjoy the xpac, it seems anet put a lot of work into it. For those of you unhappy I invite you to submit a refund as the product sold is incomplete (as of today) so you are in your right to request a refund.

I wish Anet and all its staff the best of intentions going forward, I just want to say it’s a shame that despite all your hard work you could not provide the complete product sold.