Guild Wars 2

Am I the only one who kill them first because they’re easy to put down and a threat you should not underestimate in long term fight?

Do people just kill the nearest tanky threatless foe without looking for the worst threat first?

Kulvar.1239:

Am I the only one who kill them first because they’re easy to put down and a threat you should not underestimate in long term fight?

Do people just kill the nearest tanky threatless foe without looking for the worst threat first?

Nah. I think anyone who know’s what they’re doing makes the snipers their first target. The other Mordrem are honestly trivial aside from maybe the mounted ones and a few special ones in Dragon’s Stand.
Personally the only thing I find overwhelming is those suicide mushrooms when in tight quarters.

I believe the real problem with snipers is scaling. Well, that and when an elite or champ version spawns in a huge zerg event, but that’s sort of a scaling thing too. The normal version of the mob is already dangerous, so when you add group even scaling, they’re suddenly dispensing instant death charge shots and kicking for over 15k damage. When a mob is that dangerous, and there are several of them in a huge blob with many other players around scaling things up, whether or not it kills you starts to become a matter of probability and statistics rather than player skill.

But really the only place where snipers are really, really lethal is the Pale Reaver event in Verdant Brink. All those snipers in those narrow choke points…it’s a meatgrinder.

Ohoni.6057:

Agreed with the OP. “Learn to play” people, if you don’t have a problem with the snipers, then that’s fine, but stop dismissing the reports from people who do.

There’s plenty of loot pinata’s in core tyria for you. Please go back to them until you feel safe enough to venture into a somewhat challenging area.

Last thing we need is HoT dumbed down to the level Orr is at.

Kal Spiro.9745:

I accept the fact that they are having a problem. The solution to that problem, though, is not to reduce the difficulty of the mob, but to increase the skill of the individual. That is the point of L2P. It isn’t to say you’re wrong, they’re not strong, it’s to say that your solution to the problem is wrong, you need to rise to the challenge, not lower the challenge to yourself.

Well said. Too many of the suggestions I see on the forums can be simply fixed by taking the time to learn the mechanics instead of asking for them to be changed.

I accept the fact that they are having a problem. The solution to that problem, though, is not to reduce the difficulty of the mob, but to increase the skill of the individual.

No. That is up to the player. You get to decide what your solution would be, you do not get to decide what their solution should be. If their solution is “:make the mob less annoying,” then that is their solution.

That inconvenience should motivate’em to improve so that they can beat it, instead of whining on the forum asking Anet to remove the inconvenience for’em.

Noooope.

There’s plenty of loot pinata’s in core tyria for you. Please go back to them until you feel safe enough to venture into a somewhat challenging area.

Last thing we need is HoT dumbed down to the level Orr is at.

The game is for everyone, for those who insist that people should “learn to play” with tougher mobs, you need to “learn to play” with less hardcore players. GW2 is not a hardcore game, it is not for you. It is a casual game for casual players, and they gain nothing by alienating those players.

what needs nerfed are the lines they leave behind. IMHO the lines do to much static damage when you are moving over them. When you get 4-5 snipers making those stupid lines, your dodge roll doesnt always clip all the lines, and you can take some serious damage.

Otherwise the snipers are easy to contend with.

Ohoni.6057:

The game is for everyone, for those who insist that people should “learn to play” with tougher mobs, you need to “learn to play” with less hardcore players. GW2 is not a hardcore game, it is not for you. It is a casual game for casual players, and they gain nothing by alienating those players.

What’s hardcore about a mob that has a big tell on his attacks and dies in -5 attacks?
What players are they alienating? Is there a category to sum up people who’re unable to adapt to an easy mob? And don’t call’em casuals, plenty of us here are casuals and we have no problem with this mob.

What’s your objective & verifiable source that a large number of players are alienated by this mob’s dificulty?

Ohoni.6057:

GW2 is not a hardcore game, it is not for you. It is a casual game for casual players, and they gain nothing by alienating those players.

When did you decide this and who made you the boss?

GW1 had a lot of hardcore content and because that had been missing from GW2, many players were alienated and still play GW1 to this day. Making parts of GW2 more challenging will help bring those players to GW2.

TexZero.7910:

It’s not about hardcore or casual. It’s about capable or incapable. Clearly you’re on the incapable of adapting, learning and improving side.

10/10 for your l33t arrogance.

GW1 had a lot of hardcore content and because that had been missing from GW2, many players were alienated and still play GW1 to this day.

Yes, GW1 was a more hardcore game. GW2 is not GW1.

Making parts of GW2 more challenging will help bring those players to GW2.

And potentially drive away many of the people that made GW2 more successful than GW1, especially when you have people in the community actively say “you know that game you’ve been enjoying for three years? Well the new stuff is not for you.”

Ohoni.6057:

And potentially drive away many of the people that made GW2 more successful than GW1, especially when you have people in the community actively say “you know that game you’ve been enjoying for three years? Well the new stuff is not for you.”

Once again

What’s your objective & verifiable source that a large number of players are alienated by this mob’s dificulty?

You keep saying it hurts a lot of people, it’s bad for a lot, etc. etc. for a loooootttt of people, source?

Please address Raziel’s question. To take a simple poll look at this thread and see which side is the majority…

There is plenty of casual content in the game. We are not asking for that to be changed. Please let us have the tiny amount of slightly more challenging content. You are greedy and want to take it all away from us.

Please address Raziel’s question. To take a simple poll look at this thread and see which side is the majority…

That you think that this makes sense leaves me very uninterested in providing sources for you, but suffice it to say “look at this thread and see which side is the majority…” is everything wrong with the general public’s understanding of how polling works.

There is plenty of casual content in the game. We are not asking for that to be changed. Please let us have the tiny amount of slightly more challenging content. You are greedy and want to take it all away from us.

I think it’s fine to have some challenging content. That’s not what people are arguing here. The problem is:

1. Challenging content should be COMPLETELY optional. People who want to do challenging things should be able to do them, people who don’t should be able to avoid them entirely. There should be no story, no specific rewards that are locked behind challenging content, such that people who don’t want to do challenging content miss out on those things.

2. You can’t claim that the entire expansion should be just for people who enjoy challenging content. Yes, the game has plenty of existing content, but low-challenge players are as tired of that stuff as the high-challenge players are, you cannot tell them “well the new zones are not for you” and expect acceptance. Yes, the new zones can have portions that are challenging, but these should not be the ONLY portions.

A lot of the problem people have with Mordrem Snipers is not that they are impossible to handle, it’s that they are all over the place and they are more challenging than other mobs of a similar level. You can’t really opt out of fighting them, they are part of too much of the game’s content for that, and fighting a “vanilla” sniper is equivalent to fighting a Vet+ of most other types of mobs, fighting a Vet is equivalent to an elite, and so on. At minimum, this imbalance should be corrected so that they are equivalent to other mobs. If they want a difficult mob at that location, then put a Vet Sniper there in place of a vanilla, but at least label them correctly.

You have yet to provide a source to back up any of your claims regarding the problem “a lot of people have”, most of the replies in this topic disagree with you.
Until you do so this looks like an issue for a very small group of players.

Btw noone claimed the expansion is only for those who like challenging stuff, most of the people who replied here were ok with the level of challenge provided, you claim people think otherwise, we’re just waiting on your source. The only reason I’m asking for one is because you keep claiming a lot of people have a problem with this, if you’re unable to provide one we can assume it’s just you who have a problem with this.

You have yet to provide a source to back up any of your claims regarding the problem “a lot of people have”, most of the replies in this topic disagree with you.
Until you do so this looks like an issue for a very small group of players.

If you believe that then I have a bridge to sell you, but to each his own.

Btw noone claimed the expansion is only for those who like challenging stuff, most of the people who replied here were ok with the level of challenge provided,

There have been plenty of people. in this thread and others, who have basically said that if you don’t like the challenge level in Magus Falls then “go back to Pact Tyria.” Don’t try to underplay that common response.

And those claims were just as baseless, a quick look @ this topic will prove otherwise.
Simply admitting that you have no source will be enough for me to stop calling you out on baseless claims, looking foward to your source or that.

Ohoni.6057:

I accept the fact that they are having a problem. The solution to that problem, though, is not to reduce the difficulty of the mob, but to increase the skill of the individual.

No. That is up to the player. You get to decide what your solution would be, you do not get to decide what their solution should be. If their solution is “:make the mob less annoying,” then that is their solution.

That inconvenience should motivate’em to improve so that they can beat it, instead of whining on the forum asking Anet to remove the inconvenience for’em.

Noooope.

There’s plenty of loot pinata’s in core tyria for you. Please go back to them until you feel safe enough to venture into a somewhat challenging area.

Last thing we need is HoT dumbed down to the level Orr is at.

The game is for everyone, for those who insist that people should “learn to play” with tougher mobs, you need to “learn to play” with less hardcore players. GW2 is not a hardcore game, it is not for you. It is a casual game for casual players, and they gain nothing by alienating those players.

I’m sorry that you think that every special little snow flake deserves a trophy just for showing up, but they don’t. Just because everyone has an opinion doesn’t mean they’re all equally valid. It is ok to be less good than other people. It’s not ok to diminish the activity simply because you can’t play to the same level, or personally don’t enjoy the content.

You are wrong.

Ohoni.6057:

No. That is up to the player. You get to decide what your solution would be, you do not get to decide what their solution should be. If their solution is “:make the mob less annoying,” then that is their solution.

And everyone else gets to then say why that solution is rubbish and since most people who have shown an interest in the topic of Snipers (this thread) have come down on the side of “they are fine” even giving tips on how to deal with them then we have the verdict.

Everyone can propose a solution but they aren’t all worthy and some should be dismissed because they are bad. Not all opinions or plans are created equal.

But . . . the sniper pretty much telegraphs all his moves. The crosshairs tell you to get ready to dodge or hide behind something. Also, the lines on the ground should be avoid or hopped over.

The snipers are nothing. Now those little raptors, rolling devils, and chak with their glue of instant death if you’re not careful?

That can be a problem.

Ohoni.6057:

I accept the fact that they are having a problem. The solution to that problem, though, is not to reduce the difficulty of the mob, but to increase the skill of the individual.

No. That is up to the player. You get to decide what your solution would be, you do not get to decide what their solution should be. If their solution is “:make the mob less annoying,” then that is their solution.

That inconvenience should motivate’em to improve so that they can beat it, instead of whining on the forum asking Anet to remove the inconvenience for’em.

Noooope.

There’s plenty of loot pinata’s in core tyria for you. Please go back to them until you feel safe enough to venture into a somewhat challenging area.

Last thing we need is HoT dumbed down to the level Orr is at.

The game is for everyone, for those who insist that people should “learn to play” with tougher mobs, you need to “learn to play” with less hardcore players. GW2 is not a hardcore game, it is not for you. It is a casual game for casual players, and they gain nothing by alienating those players.

Actually it up to Anet to decide what the solution will be, and right now it’s either sink or swim, and I hope they don’t change it right now,.
Eventually they will down the line, but hopefully that’ll be when the newer content comes out and people will be all over that. Anet has said that this new xpac was suppose to be harder then the core stuff.

Ohoni.6057:

It’s not about hardcore or casual. It’s about capable or incapable. Clearly you’re on the incapable of adapting, learning and improving side.

No, I’m not. I’ve already killed dozens, maybe hundreds of those guys, I’ve learned all there is to be learned about them, I just don’t enjoy fighting them, and would prefer that they be changed into something less annoying. But thanks for the condescension, it helped immensely.

So this basically summs down to:

- I’m not having fun, change it

To bad “fun” is subjective.

Going by the amount of interest in this topic, and going by the outcry during beta weekend 3 (which was toned down a lot in difficulty), the majority of the forum vocal player base (which is not necessarily represantative of the entire player base) wants a more challenging pve content.

Take that as you want. In this case, you are the special little snowflake that wants to force their unpopular view on other players.

Ohoni.6057:

Nobody is doubting that it’s ANet’s job to either change this or not. Players that keep posting these threads about how they should be changed are clearly counting on that.

And all of the threads end in the same way as this one. A vast majority of people disagree.

Interestingly enough, most threads come from people who barely entered the first HoT area and basically have had 0 play experience in the new zones. But I’m sure you noticed this too with the careful reading you’ve done.

So this basically summs down to:

- I’m not having fun, change it

To bad “fun” is subjective.

All totally true. I’d be slightly confused as to why you’d consider that in doubt, or important to point out, but this is the Internet, so of course. Fun is subjective, and some of us aren’t having as much fun as we could have with the current set-up. Luckily, this is a consumer product, so we can leave feedback as to what elements we consider to be fun, and which we do not, and the developers might choose to adapt the game based on that feedback. Or not, up to them, but we’re doing what we can to make the game as fun as possible for us, and people like us.

You are, of course, welcome to do the same, even when your opinions are in conflict with our own. I don’t have any problem with you expressing that you enjoy the mobs as they currently are, so long as you understand that this is just as much your own subjective opinion on the matter, and no more worthy of consideration than ours.

Going by the amount of interest in this topic, and going by the outcry during beta weekend 3 (which was toned down a lot in difficulty), the majority of the forum vocal player base (which is not necessarily represantative of the entire player base) wants a more challenging pve content.

Not really true, but also not really relevant, since as you say, the forum is not at all representative in number to the total game population. The forum is a good place to pick up individual unique voices, “what does this player have to say,” but it is worthless for acquiring demographic data “how many people believe X and how many believe Y?”

Take that as you want. In this case, you are the special little snowflake that wants to force their unpopular view on other players.

No more than any of you. I just want the game to be as fun as it can be.

And all of the threads end in the same way as this one. A vast majority of people disagree.

And they shout down and insult anyone who tries to say otherwise, so that’s largely to be expected. Again, not demographically relevant.

Interestingly enough, most threads come from people who barely entered the first HoT area and basically have had 0 play experience in the new zones. But I’m sure you noticed this too with the careful reading you’ve done.

If so, that would at least indicate that the learning curve is a bit too steep, that these mobs hit a bit hard for players just getting a feel for the new zones. It might be helpful to make Veteran Snipers have the stats and toolkit of a “vanilla” Sniper, and just nerf the vanilla ones to have similar mechanics, but a bit easier to handle, like lower damage, lower duration, things like that, so that they do a better job of teaching the players without killing them in the process. Reserve the harder ones for deeper in the jungle, rather than the first story mission and relatively early areas of the game.

But again, that critique isn’t really relevant to me, I’ve completed the story missions, cleared VB on one character (and most of it with others), cleared most of the next two maps with several characters, killed hundreds of Snipers, along with pretty much any other type of mob, cleared all the VB bosses, done each of the four AB sides, gained enough HPs to finish out three elite specs and part way through several others, etc. I’m far from the best player in the game, but I judge myself far from the worst, I just know what sort of encounters I enjoy, and which I definitely don’t. I actually found fighting Chak to be a lot more fun, they can be difficult, but they have a lot of counterplay to them.

I have a slight feeling that there’s a good deal of elitism in this thread. People who brusquely beat their chest armour while they chew on a pile of glass and flex their muscles. It’s rather unnecessary to be honest, just as the victimization on the other side is also rather unnecessary.

Lets lean back a bit and look at the broader picture of the entire game design. A sniper on its own isn’t that much of a problem. I take it most people can agree on that. They telegraph their abilities, and can be avoided if you know what to look for. However, in the world of HoT, being a lone individual doesn’t happen too often. There are always some sort of other monsters lurking around as well.

So recap so far; lone monster not that bad.

So lets move on to how HoT is really designed. The monsters are most of the time not alone. They are accompanied by 2 or 3 others. Now some combinations aren’t that problematic, mender and sniper per example. Other combinations however can be a bit more tricky to handle. And that’s the core problem of most of the enemies in this game, they’re rather balanced alone but in a group they seem to pile up abilities without there being a group logic to what they’re doing, they’re just doing what they would if they were alone and that can be rather devastating. I’m having a very hard time believing anyone saying they’ve cruised through HoT without encountering some group of monsters that totally wrecked them, I believe more a show of that “me Tarzan you Jane” mentality rather than the actual truth.

Anet isn’t exactly good at AI and the monsters – though in packs – have no group-AI to talk about. If a monster has a CC ability he’ll use it as if he was on its own. That can make certain encounters rather annoying to do and at times, and you only have that much endurance and stability to go around.

I don’t mind a challenge and I’ve been looking for a game that does challenge. Take “The secret world” per example, rather devastating monsters while in groups, but they also have a “group AI” system in place, so you won’t be stun locked. You have to roll around quite some and know what to do at what time, but the challenge can be overcome by knowing the monsters. The group AI makes it challenging but beatable. In HoT there are no group AI, you can be stun-locked quite effectively and prevented from taking any actions. I’ve had that happen to me, a friend has had that happening to him and I’ve seen quite a lot of evidence for that happening to others.

In conclusion, everyone can agree that some challenge is good and ads depth to the game. The challenge presented needs to be overcoming though. As it is right now, certain combinations of monsters aren’t something you can overcome by knowing the fight, if they decide to stun-lock you, they’ll do so, and if the mob they have with them or around them is a damage dealer, you’re guaranteed dead. It’s not about nerfing anything, but tweaking it around to keep the challenge but give the players a fighting chance.

Anet isn’t exactly good at AI and the monsters – though in packs – have no group-AI to talk about. If a monster has a CC ability he’ll use it as if he was on its own. That can make certain encounters rather annoying to do and at times, and you only have that much endurance and stability to go around.

That’s one of the reasons I actually like the Chak. They are mostly unitaskers, and alone not that big a deal, but each of their abilities are designed to stack well with each other, and they always come in packs, so together they present an interesting challenge. They are an example of how to do that right.

The group AI makes it challenging but beatable. In HoT there are no group AI, you can be stun-locked quite effectively and prevented from taking any actions. I’ve had that happen to me, a friend has had that happening to him and I’ve seen quite a lot of evidence for that happening to others.

A bit off topic, but a better way I’ve seen for fixing that is to just give players the equivalent of Defiance, the old one, in that each time you get hard CCed, you gain a stack of resistance to it, and with enough stacks, you break and become immune to CCs for a short period of time. It’d be limited enough that most of the time it would never come into play, but if one or more enemies were determined to completely shut you down, it would make that harder, and eventually impossible.

Ohoni.6057:

No more than any of you. I just want the game to be as fun as it can be.

Many of the players responding in this thread seem to disagree. Going via basic democracy and your vote being equal to theirs, you lose.

Pharazon.3095:

Lets lean back a bit and look at the broader picture of the entire game design. A sniper on its own isn’t that much of a problem. I take it most people can agree on that. They telegraph their abilities, and can be avoided if you know what to look for. However, in the world of HoT, being a lone individual doesn’t happen too often. There are always some sort of other monsters lurking around as well.

So recap so far; lone monster not that bad.

So lets move on to how HoT is really designed. The monsters are most of the time not alone. They are accompanied by 2 or 3 others. Now some combinations aren’t that problematic, mender and sniper per example. Other combinations however can be a bit more tricky to handle. And that’s the core problem of most of the enemies in this game, they’re rather balanced alone but in a group they seem to pile up abilities without there being a group logic to what they’re doing, they’re just doing what they would if they were alone and that can be rather devastating. I’m having a very hard time believing anyone saying they’ve cruised through HoT without encountering some group of monsters that totally wrecked them, I believe more a show of that “me Tarzan you Jane” mentality rather than the actual truth.

Are we talking about the same enemys that get rolled over by the player zerg train and even though they might down a player here and there, the vast amount of players simply runs over them? Even event scaling does not prevent this.

Or are we talking about that nasty group of 5 enemys you encountered solo or as a duo and likely bit off more than you could chew?

If it is the first case, I see no problem. Zerg kills all. In fact the enemys might need to get buffed with some anti zerg mechanics.

If it is the second case, it might be due to 1 of 2 reasons:

- better timed evasion needed
- more stability

if enemys are stunlocking you and you didn’t bring something along to prevent this, the fault lies with you not being prepared. yes, it might require changing those utility skills once in a while. That’s what challenging content does.

Cyninja.2954:

Pharazon.3095:

Lets lean back a bit and look at the broader picture of the entire game design. A sniper on its own isn’t that much of a problem. I take it most people can agree on that. They telegraph their abilities, and can be avoided if you know what to look for. However, in the world of HoT, being a lone individual doesn’t happen too often. There are always some sort of other monsters lurking around as well.

So recap so far; lone monster not that bad.

So lets move on to how HoT is really designed. The monsters are most of the time not alone. They are accompanied by 2 or 3 others. Now some combinations aren’t that problematic, mender and sniper per example. Other combinations however can be a bit more tricky to handle. And that’s the core problem of most of the enemies in this game, they’re rather balanced alone but in a group they seem to pile up abilities without there being a group logic to what they’re doing, they’re just doing what they would if they were alone and that can be rather devastating. I’m having a very hard time believing anyone saying they’ve cruised through HoT without encountering some group of monsters that totally wrecked them, I believe more a show of that “me Tarzan you Jane” mentality rather than the actual truth.

Are we talking about the same enemys that get rolled over by the player zerg train and even though they might down a player here and there, the vast amount of players simply runs over them? Even event scaling does not prevent this.

Or are we talking about that nasty group of 5 enemys you encountered solo or as a duo and likely bit off more than you could chew?

If it is the first case, I see no problem. Zerg kills all. In fact the enemys might need to get buffed with some anti zerg mechanics.

If it is the second case, it might be due to 1 of 2 reasons:

- better timed evasion needed
- more stability

if enemys are stunlocking you and you didn’t bring something along to prevent this, the fault lies with you not being prepared. yes, it might require changing those utility skills once in a while. That’s what challenging content does.

We’re talking about on your own here, per example in solo scenarios. Thought it was quite obvious.

As for stability; I’m playing as a revenant with Inspiring Reinforcement used on CD. I’m not positive but I think that’s about as stable as you can get, that is until it’s on CD that is.

As I’ve said, the enemies are in most cases fine on their own, but as a group their AI is thrown out the window and doesn’t function properly. That’s when you can end up stun-locked, and there are a couple of places where that’s rather probable.

Raziel.4216:

…

What’s hardcore about a mob that has a big tell on his attacks and dies in -5 attacks?…

Elite Snipers die in -5 attacks? And the “big tell” is only shown to ONE player. Everyone else who stands on that line gets oneshot by the elite without any warning.

Raziel.4216:

…
Btw noone claimed the expansion is only for those who like challenging stuff,…

Several people in this very thread have said exactly that.

Raziel.4216:

…The only reason I’m asking for one is because you keep claiming a lot of people have a problem with this, if you’re unable to provide one we can assume it’s just you who have a problem with this.

If any game designer would have the same attitude as you do they would go down pretty fast. The big majority who don’t like something don’t complain they just leave silently. They have bought this expansion but the next one they won’t and then ANet could get into really big trouble.

And people like you don’t get that.

Cyninja.2954:

…..

And all of the threads end in the same way as this one. A vast majority of people disagree.

….

Do you really think that 10 people out of a player base of a few hundred thousands is a majority? Even if we only look at those frequenting this forum the people in this thread disagreeing with the OP would be a minority.

BobbyT.7192:

…. Anet has said that this new xpac was suppose to be harder then the core stuff.

It’s irrelevant what ANet said somewhere on the net. What matters is what they say on the webpage where they sell the product. And it doesn’t say anything about it being harder on there.

Ohoni.6057:

The reason people are telling you this is because you’re crying over nothing. What you call an “OP” mob many others see as perfectly reasonable. Instead of learning why these people say it’s perfectly reasonable you come to the forums to complain.

I fully understand why these people say it’s perfectly reasonable. I know everything they know on the issue. I just disagree with their opinions on the matter.

Dude. The expansion was advertised as increasing the difficulty to bring in challenging content. On that anet has delivered some challenging mobs. Snipers being one of them. It’s not by bad design that they are strong either. You can clearly see both when they lock onto you and the line field they leave behind. Lowering these mods adds nothing to the game and takes away a creatively well thought out mob.

If you nerf this, then there is no reason to nerf a majority of the other well made mobs in the jungle and then suddenly the difficulty isnt there at all anymore. The point of the difficulty is to get people ready for raids. What are you going to do when you face them? ask for nerfs? Seriously this isnt dark souls. The majority of the game you can still play standing still pressing one(sometimes 2). There is a difference between casual and lazy. Your posts and reasoning to me sound like the latter.

Ohoni.6057:

I’m sorry that you think that every special little snow flake deserves a trophy just for showing up, but they don’t.

And that includes those that want a more challenging experience out of a game that was made successful by a lower-challenge experience. Just because you want it, doesn’t mean that it’s best for the game, and telling complainers to stop complaining isn’t going to make anything any better.

Just because you want the difficulty lowered doesnt mean its better for the game either. When people are not challenged they get bored they move on anet loses out on someone that would be spending money in the gem shop its no different than losing you. I’ll iterate on this again, a large focal point of the expansion is increased difficulty. Many people including my self purchased the expansion solely on the promise of harder content. If you really don’t like that kind of difficulty great, there is 3 years of well developed easy base game that you can have countless hours in. Stop seeking to ruin others experience just to have your own enjoyable one.

Kashrlyyk.5364:

BobbyT.7192:

…. Anet has said that this new xpac was suppose to be harder then the core stuff.

It’s irrelevant what ANet said somewhere on the net. What matters is what they say on the webpage where they sell the product. And it doesn’t say anything about it being harder on there.

https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/reimagining-progression-the-mastery-system/

The Heart of Maguuma will be home to some of the most challenging combat in Guild Wars 2

https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/gameplay-features-making-the-most-of-maguuma/

We also included special difficult-to-attain achievements with specific challenging conditions

https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/raids-in-guild-wars-2/

You asked for the ultimate challenging content in Guild Wars 2

Do you still think they never gave any hint? :)

Ohoni.6057:

I’m sorry that you think that every special little snow flake deserves a trophy just for showing up, but they don’t.

And that includes those that want a more challenging experience out of a game that was made successful by a lower-challenge experience. Just because you want it, doesn’t mean that it’s best for the game, and telling complainers to stop complaining isn’t going to make anything any better.

I never told anyone to stop complaining. They can complain as much as they want, so can you. The thing we’re saying needs to stop is the demand that content be lowered to the skill level of the complainers just because they can’t handle it. Being a lowest common denominator game is not what made it successful. It was the step away from themepark design, allowing players to level however and whereever they pleased without making content trivial just because it’s underleveled. It’s the lack of a gear treadmill. The step away from “traditional” MMOs, not being easier than dirt.

HoT was made and marketed as END GAME content. That means it’s designed to be a step up and if you want to participate you are required to be a step up. That is the specific design and ANet’s intention. It makes no difference if you’re not comfortable with that step, or if some people aren’t capable of making it. This is what ANet wants for the game, and what numerous people want for the game as well.

For every person who can’t cope there are numerous people who can handle the content just fine. ANet wants you to play harder, and the majority can handle it. Therefore the minority don’t get the dumbed down version.

Kulvar.1239:

Kashrlyyk.5364:

BobbyT.7192:

…. Anet has said that this new xpac was suppose to be harder then the core stuff.

It’s irrelevant what ANet said somewhere on the net. What matters is what they say on the webpage where they sell the product. And it doesn’t say anything about it being harder on there.

https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/reimagining-progression-the-mastery-system/

The Heart of Maguuma will be home to some of the most challenging combat in Guild Wars 2

https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/gameplay-features-making-the-most-of-maguuma/

We also included special difficult-to-attain achievements with specific challenging conditions

https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/raids-in-guild-wars-2/

You asked for the ultimate challenging content in Guild Wars 2

Do you still think they never gave any hint?

My hero.

Kashrlyyk.5364:

Elite Snipers die in -5 attacks? And the “big tell” is only shown to ONE player. Everyone else who stands on that line gets oneshot by the elite without any warning.

Can you quote where did I say “elite” sniper?

Kashrlyyk.5364:

Do you really think that 10 people out of a player base of a few hundred thousands is a majority? Even if we only look at those frequenting this forum the people in this thread disagreeing with the OP would be a minority.

That’s why we asked for a source to back up his claim that “a lot of people” have a problem with this mob

The previous reply already addresed your missleading claim that this wasn’t marketed as end-game content, I wonder what kind of response you’ll come up with to claim that they never gave you a hint.

Bbl I’m off to buy legacy of the void and then complain about them never marketed it as a protoss-focused expansion, no wai!

Pharazon.3095:

Cyninja.2954:

Pharazon.3095:

Lets lean back a bit and look at the broader picture of the entire game design. A sniper on its own isn’t that much of a problem. I take it most people can agree on that. They telegraph their abilities, and can be avoided if you know what to look for. However, in the world of HoT, being a lone individual doesn’t happen too often. There are always some sort of other monsters lurking around as well.

So recap so far; lone monster not that bad.

So lets move on to how HoT is really designed. The monsters are most of the time not alone. They are accompanied by 2 or 3 others. Now some combinations aren’t that problematic, mender and sniper per example. Other combinations however can be a bit more tricky to handle. And that’s the core problem of most of the enemies in this game, they’re rather balanced alone but in a group they seem to pile up abilities without there being a group logic to what they’re doing, they’re just doing what they would if they were alone and that can be rather devastating. I’m having a very hard time believing anyone saying they’ve cruised through HoT without encountering some group of monsters that totally wrecked them, I believe more a show of that “me Tarzan you Jane” mentality rather than the actual truth.

Are we talking about the same enemys that get rolled over by the player zerg train and even though they might down a player here and there, the vast amount of players simply runs over them? Even event scaling does not prevent this.

Or are we talking about that nasty group of 5 enemys you encountered solo or as a duo and likely bit off more than you could chew?

If it is the first case, I see no problem. Zerg kills all. In fact the enemys might need to get buffed with some anti zerg mechanics.

If it is the second case, it might be due to 1 of 2 reasons:

- better timed evasion needed
- more stability

if enemys are stunlocking you and you didn’t bring something along to prevent this, the fault lies with you not being prepared. yes, it might require changing those utility skills once in a while. That’s what challenging content does.

We’re talking about on your own here, per example in solo scenarios. Thought it was quite obvious.

As for stability; I’m playing as a revenant with Inspiring Reinforcement used on CD. I’m not positive but I think that’s about as stable as you can get, that is until it’s on CD that is.

As I’ve said, the enemies are in most cases fine on their own, but as a group their AI is thrown out the window and doesn’t function properly. That’s when you can end up stun-locked, and there are a couple of places where that’s rather probable.

Take Shiro, use https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Riposting_Shadows when needed or switch into shiro from your main Legendary stance (which will likely be Glint in pve). Wait for cc to hit, press button, problem solved.

If you can’t get out of cc with a rev, you are doing it wrong.

Kulvar.1239:

Kashrlyyk.5364:

BobbyT.7192:

…. Anet has said that this new xpac was suppose to be harder then the core stuff.

It’s irrelevant what ANet said somewhere on the net. What matters is what they say on the webpage where they sell the product. And it doesn’t say anything about it being harder on there.

https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/reimagining-progression-the-mastery-system/

The Heart of Maguuma will be home to some of the most challenging combat in Guild Wars 2

https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/gameplay-features-making-the-most-of-maguuma/

We also included special difficult-to-attain achievements with specific challenging conditions

https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/raids-in-guild-wars-2/

You asked for the ultimate challenging content in Guild Wars 2

Do you still think they never gave any hint?

Sheesh, how dare you come with facts. We must keep demanding the gameplay be reduced to mindnumbing afk-auto-stick-follow levels.

Eval.2371:

When people are not challenged they get bored they move on anet loses out on someone that would be spending money in the gem shop its no different than losing you.

They would have moved 3 years ago then. People sticked to GW2 because it was very casual friendly.
I barely touched pve for the last years because I wanted challenging content. I played mostly solo/small group roaming in wvw. I still think it’s the only place where you can fully take advantage of the combat system and find challenge in this game, even with HoT and the new difficulty. When I see pve’ers using the “l2p” excuses while they sit in pve ( which isn’t challenging), I can’t take any of you seriously.

People stick in pve to relax. It’s so obvious. If you were really looking for any pve challenging content, you would have moved to another mmo. I could suggest FF14 and savage raids.

Cyninja.2954:

Pharazon.3095:

Cyninja.2954:

Pharazon.3095:

Lets lean back a bit and look at the broader picture of the entire game design. A sniper on its own isn’t that much of a problem. I take it most people can agree on that. They telegraph their abilities, and can be avoided if you know what to look for. However, in the world of HoT, being a lone individual doesn’t happen too often. There are always some sort of other monsters lurking around as well.

So recap so far; lone monster not that bad.

So lets move on to how HoT is really designed. The monsters are most of the time not alone. They are accompanied by 2 or 3 others. Now some combinations aren’t that problematic, mender and sniper per example. Other combinations however can be a bit more tricky to handle. And that’s the core problem of most of the enemies in this game, they’re rather balanced alone but in a group they seem to pile up abilities without there being a group logic to what they’re doing, they’re just doing what they would if they were alone and that can be rather devastating. I’m having a very hard time believing anyone saying they’ve cruised through HoT without encountering some group of monsters that totally wrecked them, I believe more a show of that “me Tarzan you Jane” mentality rather than the actual truth.

Are we talking about the same enemys that get rolled over by the player zerg train and even though they might down a player here and there, the vast amount of players simply runs over them? Even event scaling does not prevent this.

Or are we talking about that nasty group of 5 enemys you encountered solo or as a duo and likely bit off more than you could chew?

If it is the first case, I see no problem. Zerg kills all. In fact the enemys might need to get buffed with some anti zerg mechanics.

If it is the second case, it might be due to 1 of 2 reasons:

- better timed evasion needed
- more stability

if enemys are stunlocking you and you didn’t bring something along to prevent this, the fault lies with you not being prepared. yes, it might require changing those utility skills once in a while. That’s what challenging content does.

We’re talking about on your own here, per example in solo scenarios. Thought it was quite obvious.

As for stability; I’m playing as a revenant with Inspiring Reinforcement used on CD. I’m not positive but I think that’s about as stable as you can get, that is until it’s on CD that is.

As I’ve said, the enemies are in most cases fine on their own, but as a group their AI is thrown out the window and doesn’t function properly. That’s when you can end up stun-locked, and there are a couple of places where that’s rather probable.

Take Shiro, use https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Riposting_Shadows when needed or switch into shiro from your main Legendary stance (which will likely be Glint in pve). Wait for cc to hit, press button, problem solved.

If you can’t get out of cc with a rev, you are doing it wrong.

Granted, but beside the point, as there are a whole lot more classes than just Revenant. The point here is that certain combination of monsters have a nasty ability to stun-lock you from actions, combined with dealing heavy damage. If you’re per example knocked down by a mushroom charger in the middle of a field of goo, you’re lucky to survive. Or if you’re stun-locked on top of a sniper line.

There are many variables to take into account and it’s impossible for a human player to keep track of every variable going on and counter act them. Simply because there are no group AI in this game, and thus all enemies act as if they’re on their own, and on their own their abilities are easy to counter, but collectively they can turn a situation into a rather nasty pile of carnage.

Nausicca.6038:

Eval.2371:

When people are not challenged they get bored they move on anet loses out on someone that would be spending money in the gem shop its no different than losing you.

They would have moved 3 years ago then. People sticked to GW2 because it was very casual friendly.
I barely touched pve for the last years because I wanted challenging content. I played mostly solo/small group roaming in wvw. I still think it’s the only place where you can fully take advantage of the combat system and find challenge in this game, even with HoT and the new difficulty. When I see pve’ers using the “l2p” excuses while they sit in pve ( which isn’t challenging), I can’t take any of you seriously.

People stick in pve to relax. It’s so obvious. If you were really looking for any pve challenging content, you would have moved to another mmo. I could suggest FF14 and savage raids.

So let me get this strait, you left pve for wvw because you wanted challenging content. Yet your solution to pve players is:

- make pve content boring
- find another game
- let’s go back to afk farm while waiting for the next expansion
- go to game xyz with a completely different design (most importantly, decaying equipment. Thanks, if I ever had tono-life a game again to keep my gear level I’d rather quit MMOs)

Casual friendly does not mean brain dead. If every one of the new maps where on Tripple Trouble levels, i’d agree. But as is, theya re more than doable. Verdant Brink is on farm, so is Auric Basin. They’ve been on farm mode for 2-3 days after launch.

The only remotely difficult area is Dragon Stand, and even this one is on farm for organized groups of random players (as in, all it takes is for 3 people who know what they are doing to flag on, rest follows).

But what do you care, you’ve already left pve for a different game mode?

Pharazon.3095:

Granted, but beside the point, as there are a whole lot more classes than just Revenant. The point here is that certain combination of monsters have a nasty ability to stun-lock you from actions, combined with dealing heavy damage. If you’re per example knocked down by a mushroom charger in the middle of a field of goo, you’re lucky to survive. Or if you’re stun-locked on top of a sniper line.

There are many variables to take into account and it’s impossible for a human player to keep track of every variable going on and counter act them. Simply because there are no group AI in this game, and thus all enemies act as if they’re on their own, and on their own their abilities are easy to counter, but collectively they can turn a situation into a rather nasty pile of carnage.

I used to main mesmer. Finished the story on new maps on mesmer before moving to revenant. Played Guardian, Warrior and Thief, none of which are having problems in the new maps.

Now I could go through every single profession and point out what their builds are which could easily cope with anything HoT throws at you, but thena gain I’m lazy. Guess we’ll just have to assume other players have finished the maps and story without problems.

You are over emphasizing your AI point. On the contrary, having multiple enemys running predictable AI makes fights easier once you know what to look out for. I’m sorry you believe otherwise.

for the snipers: don’t stay stationary, just move left and right and continue attacking when you play ranged… else just kill ‘m with priority. you’ll ge hit now and then, but you’ll most likely never be in the line anymore losing you just a couple of k’s instead of being downed….

The damaging line is the problem. Sometimes it can be difficult to see.

Nausicca.6038:

Eval.2371:

When people are not challenged they get bored they move on anet loses out on someone that would be spending money in the gem shop its no different than losing you.

They would have moved 3 years ago then. People sticked to GW2 because it was very casual friendly.
I barely touched pve for the last years because I wanted challenging content. I played mostly solo/small group roaming in wvw. I still think it’s the only place where you can fully take advantage of the combat system and find challenge in this game, even with HoT and the new difficulty. When I see pve’ers using the “l2p” excuses while they sit in pve ( which isn’t challenging), I can’t take any of you seriously.

People stick in pve to relax. It’s so obvious. If you were really looking for any pve challenging content, you would have moved to another mmo. I could suggest FF14 and savage raids.

No not all would leave. I moved onto wvw like you because after getting to the end of fractals there wasent much challenge left in the game and frankly pvp is broken. I would move onto FF14 but subscriptions are just frankly not in the budget. I got tired of neverwinter, raiderz shut down quiet some time ago and black desert is more than likely not coming to the west. So as far as dynamic and challenging combat mmo’s go, gw2 is the best option. Anyhoo this is getting off topic.

My point was that his opinion or wallet, which is how most of these people put it at the end of the argument is not more valuable than others.

Kulvar.1239:

..Do you still think they never gave any hint?..

Raziel.4216:

…
The previous reply already addresed your missleading claim that this wasn’t marketed as end-game content, I wonder what kind of response you’ll come up with to claim that they never gave you a hint.

Nope. Doesn’t matter. The website where the player clicks on the “Purchase Now” button must contain that information and it doesn’t. Everywhere else is irrelevant.

All ANet had to do is add a “For experienced players only that look for a challenge” anywhere visible on that page with the “Purchase Now” button and everything would be great. But then a LOT of players would not have bought it. That is why that information is hidden from the buyer on some other website.

Raziel.4216:

…
Bbl I’m off to buy legacy of the void and then complain about them never marketed it as a protoss-focused expansion, no wai!

StarCraft II: Legacy of the Void is the final chapter in the epic scifi
storyline spanning the StarCraft II trilogy. Players will guide the
powerful Protoss in the epic conclusion to Blizzard’s award-winning…

Product information on the amazon website with the “Purchase now” button. Notice how this important information is there?

GW2 Heart of Thorns amazon description:

Tackle challenging group content, explore new open-world jungle maps, experience new events and story lines, and test your mettle in new heart-pounding boss battles.

Notice how “challeging group content” is a separate item to “explore new open-world jungle maps”. They are talking about the raids there not about the difficulty of the rest of the game. It’s misleading.

Kashrlyyk.5364:

Kulvar.1239:

..Do you still think they never gave any hint?..

Raziel.4216:

…
The previous reply already addresed your missleading claim that this wasn’t marketed as end-game content, I wonder what kind of response you’ll come up with to claim that they never gave you a hint.

Nope. Doesn’t matter. The website where the player clicks on the “Purchase Now” button must contain that information and it doesn’t. Everywhere else is irrelevant.

All ANet had to do is add a “For experienced players only that look for a challenge” anywhere visible on that page with the “Purchase Now” button and everything would be great. But then a LOT of players would not have bought it. That is why that information is hidden from the buyer on some other website.

Raziel.4216:

…
Bbl I’m off to buy legacy of the void and then complain about them never marketed it as a protoss-focused expansion, no wai!

StarCraft II: Legacy of the Void is the final chapter in the epic scifi
storyline spanning the StarCraft II trilogy. Players will guide the
powerful Protoss in the epic conclusion to Blizzard’s award-winning…

Product information on the amazon website with the “Purchase now” button. Notice how this important information is there?

GW2 Heart of Thorns amazon description:

Tackle challenging group content, explore new open-world jungle maps, experience new events and story lines, and test your mettle in new heart-pounding boss battles.

Notice how “challeging group content” is a separate item to “explore new open-world jungle maps”. They are talking about the raids there not about the difficulty of the rest of the game. It’s misleading.

Actually, technically speaking, no they’re not. You can’t make assumptions when ANet says something, that will get you every time. You have to assume it means Raids, but actually all the group content is challenging. It’s supposed to be.

Try leveling up Nuhoch Stealth Mastery. It made my life easier to spot and single out those snipers to kill first.

On an entirely different note, OP probably hasn’t tried his odds against Mushroom, Mordrem Itzel and Chak – Oh god, chak! They come in SWARMS!

Kashrlyyk.5364:

Kulvar.1239:

..Do you still think they never gave any hint?..

Raziel.4216:

…
The previous reply already addresed your missleading claim that this wasn’t marketed as end-game content, I wonder what kind of response you’ll come up with to claim that they never gave you a hint.

Nope. Doesn’t matter. The website where the player clicks on the “Purchase Now” button must contain that information and it doesn’t. Everywhere else is irrelevant.

All ANet had to do is add a “For experienced players only that look for a challenge” anywhere visible on that page with the “Purchase Now” button and everything would be great. But then a LOT of players would not have bought it. That is why that information is hidden from the buyer on some other website.

Raziel.4216:

…
Bbl I’m off to buy legacy of the void and then complain about them never marketed it as a protoss-focused expansion, no wai!

StarCraft II: Legacy of the Void is the final chapter in the epic scifi
storyline spanning the StarCraft II trilogy. Players will guide the
powerful Protoss in the epic conclusion to Blizzard’s award-winning…

Product information on the amazon website with the “Purchase now” button. Notice how this important information is there?

GW2 Heart of Thorns amazon description:

Tackle challenging group content, explore new open-world jungle maps, experience new events and story lines, and test your mettle in new heart-pounding boss battles.

Notice how “challeging group content” is a separate item to “explore new open-world jungle maps”. They are talking about the raids there not about the difficulty of the rest of the game. It’s misleading.

I really blame that on the misinformed consumer really, stating something that is somewhat difficult is not really a requirement that needs to be said IMO. Does everything that could possibly annoy a player need to be address right before they press the "buy me’ button, if so then that would be a very long description list.
Anyone that would be worried about something like that has the ability to do research on the product they are buying (that goes for anything), and they should.

Many of the players responding in this thread seem to disagree. Going via basic democracy and your vote being equal to theirs, you lose.

And that’s why it’s always important to keep in mind that “forum democracy” is entirely meaningless.

Dude. The expansion was advertised as increasing the difficulty to bring in challenging content. On that anet has delivered some challenging mobs.

Yeah, but a lot of people seem to not like them, so maybe they should be changed.

If you nerf this, then there is no reason to nerf a majority of the other well made mobs in the jungle and then suddenly the difficulty isnt there at all anymore. The point of the difficulty is to get people ready for raids.

Most players have no interest in raids. They need to remember that GW2 largely exists as an ESCAPE from the raiding culture of other MMOs. “Getting people ready for raids” is not a good excuse for. . . anything.

If you really don’t like that kind of difficulty great, there is 3 years of well developed easy base game that you can have countless hours in.

You can’t say “well you can just pay the content you’ve been playing for three years.” The reason most of us bought the expansion was for NEW content, so the NEW content needs to be for us as well.

I never told anyone to stop complaining. They can complain as much as they want, so can you. The thing we’re saying needs to stop is the demand that content be lowered to the skill level of the complainers just because they can’t handle it

So. . . people can complain all they want. . . just not about anything they actually want to be different than how you’d want it to be. . . okaaay. . .

Ohoni.6057:

Yeah, but a lot of people seem to not like them, so maybe they should be changed.

anecdotal.

anecdotal.

Obviously, as is any account to the contrary. All we know is that some people feel one way and other people feel the opposite, and both people are entitled to feel that way. It’s up to ANet to figure out how many people fit into each group and what to do about that.

Kashrlyyk.5364:

Kulvar.1239:

..Do you still think they never gave any hint?..

Raziel.4216:

…
The previous reply already addresed your missleading claim that this wasn’t marketed as end-game content, I wonder what kind of response you’ll come up with to claim that they never gave you a hint.

Nope. Doesn’t matter. The website where the player clicks on the “Purchase Now” button must contain that information and it doesn’t. Everywhere else is irrelevant.

All ANet had to do is add a “For experienced players only that look for a challenge” anywhere visible on that page with the “Purchase Now” button and everything would be great. But then a LOT of players would not have bought it. That is why that information is hidden from the buyer on some other website.

Raziel.4216:

…
Bbl I’m off to buy legacy of the void and then complain about them never marketed it as a protoss-focused expansion, no wai!

StarCraft II: Legacy of the Void is the final chapter in the epic scifi
storyline spanning the StarCraft II trilogy. Players will guide the
powerful Protoss in the epic conclusion to Blizzard’s award-winning…

Product information on the amazon website with the “Purchase now” button. Notice how this important information is there?

GW2 Heart of Thorns amazon description:

Tackle challenging group content, explore new open-world jungle maps, experience new events and story lines, and test your mettle in new heart-pounding boss battles.

Notice how “challeging group content” is a separate item to “explore new open-world jungle maps”. They are talking about the raids there not about the difficulty of the rest of the game. It’s misleading.

They had a crapload of blog posts, interviews and 3 betas, all of this in the span of 9(?) months, we knew what was coming.
It is your job as a customer to research a product before you buy it, the blog posts that prove your claims wrong were not hidden, did not require a password to read, they were posted on here and on social media.
If you do not like the product they advertised for months then feel free to speak with your wallet, you can still get a refund, have fun.

Ohoni.6057:

anecdotal.

Obviously, as is any account to the contrary. All we know is that some people feel one way and other people feel the opposite, and both people are entitled to feel that way. It’s up to ANet to figure out how many people fit into each group and what to do about that.

You continue to claim that “a lot of people” feel the same way without providing any sort of verifiable source.
Therefore, I’ll just claim that less than 1% of the player population feels the same way you do, and my claim is just as valid.