Guild Wars 2

Seriously, you hear this everywhere the class is discussed…

But the more I look at the skills and abilities, the more I review the numbers for what we have now, and given the fact that we don’t have any solid information to draw any real conclusions from….

How in the nine bloody hells of Balthazar are people coming to the conclusion that Rev will be OP? If anything, from what we know right now and the speculation we have from varies “This person said this” (without verifiable links) I kinda find the Rev to be in a rather weak place.

Unlike it’s heavy brethren, it has no meaningful sustain to keep in in a fight (HP in the mid range, no viable self healing mechanic), no mitigation modifiers (Invulnerable states, Aegis, Blocks, Vigor) aside from the 40energy, 5 sec DR elite (Which only Anet knows how much is actually reduced).

Please, I really feel like I am missing out on something here, can someone explain to me how the Revenant is going to be OP?

Because it’s new, new classes introduced in MMO’s are never balanced well, they’re either vastly overpowered or vastly underpowered, people are hoping it’s the former because many people are going to flock to the revenant when it’s released.

aaaaand i don’t care even if its a broken underpowered mess ( like Necros ) it WILL be my main :PPPP

By “no information” you do mean a fairly complete look at three of their trait lines, two legends, and a weapon set, right? Because that’s plently to put together some builds with and think “hmmm, that trait right there is WAY more powerful than a similar trait we already know well…”

If I wanted to go with blind fear-mongering I’d just point out that Revenant inherited its lead designer from WARRIOR and if you don’t think that class has been coddled just a wee bit by the Class Balance team, you haven’t been playing the same game as the rest of us.

Truthfully I don’t think it’s shaping up to be grossly over powered, but its gonna land right in the top tier with a couple of really questionably “balanced” traits unless we see a LOT of clean up and love given to the non-golden child classes of the game (hint: everyone not in heavy armor).

Concerns about unbalance are grounded in the content we have seen so far. Some things might change, some might.

But if you don’t see a problem in an ability that removed 2 boons and applies 5x confusion (to up to 5 enemy targets), that can be spammed, I don’t know what to tell you because you’re obviously not into any kind of pvp content.

Another is the Hammer ability to raise a wall that protects against projectiles. It lasts 6sec and has a 12sec cooldown. A 50% uptime on something that grants complete protections against projectile based attacks, not just for you but anyone else behind that shield, seem balanced to you?
In WvW a zerg with a few Revenants and a bit of coordination is almost untouchable for ranged builds if this ability goes live as it is. Ow and it’s also a Dark field, so yummy yummy Lifesteal.

Just two examples, but there’s more. If you’re more of a pve player, what about that aoe field that displaces a target? It pulses, jump that on a boss and it will remove a lot of that new defiance mechanic. Simply because the boss doesn’t get displaced, stays in the field, and eats 5 CCs from a single ability.

Now obviously it’s still a work in progress. However everything seems to incredibly streamlined for Revenant and very good. Even the “bad” stuff we’ve seen so far is still very good when compared to other professions. And that’s where concerns come from.

Terrahero.9358:

Concerns about unbalance are grounded in the content we have seen so far. Some things might change, some might.

But if you don’t see a problem in an ability that removed 2 boons and applies 5x confusion (to up to 5 enemy targets), that can be spammed, I don’t know what to tell you because you’re obviously not into any kind of pvp content.

Another is the Hammer ability to raise a wall that protects against projectiles. It lasts 6sec and has a 12sec cooldown. A 50% uptime on something that grants complete protections against projectile based attacks, not just for you but anyone else behind that shield, seem balanced to you?
In WvW a zerg with a few Revenants and a bit of coordination is almost untouchable for ranged builds if this ability goes live as it is. Ow and it’s also a Dark field, so yummy yummy Lifesteal.

Just two examples, but there’s more. If you’re more of a pve player, what about that aoe field that displaces a target? It pulses, jump that on a boss and it will remove a lot of that new defiance mechanic. Simply because the boss doesn’t get displaced, stays in the field, and eats 5 CCs from a single ability.

Now obviously it’s still a work in progress. However everything seems to incredibly streamlined for Revenant and very good. Even the “bad” stuff we’ve seen so far is still very good when compared to other professions. And that’s where concerns come from.

That barrier raises all sorts of questions. You just know there will be a trait that reduces two handed weapon cooldowns by 20% so you would be looking at 9.6 second CDs.

Imagine if they got traited reflect on Barriers?

It looks like there version of weapon traits will be legend traits instead. Well here to hoping they don’t get 20% reduction to two handed weapon skills.

Part of the problem is that we are seeing the Revenant’s new toys but we don’t know how ANet plans on changing up the old professions and their specializations in regards to these new tech changes. According to most playtest reports, playtesters discerned no new changes to the old professions, which is likely for purposes of demo playtesting. Yet we know, for example, that the old professions will receive appropriate changes to their stability skills that are more in-line with the Revenant’s skills.

Currently the profession looks rather weak from a pve pov.

Hammer does not do that much damage. #2 Req. position for max damage which does not increase quality to me. Reasons: It makes gameplay or positioning more complex so it’s more focusing am i standing in the right way or should i go further away then on focusing on what the targeted foe does.

Mace with torment will be strong in PVP where you run a bit more and you keep moving a lot more. In PVE i say no chance in hell at least not as the damage weapon #1.

I know we haven’t seen all trait lines und new runes, sigils, etc.

I’ve been thinking myself that people may have been missing some of the weaknesses of the revenant.

A big one in my mind is a lack of customisability. It’s even worse off than the elementalist in that respect – you can’t even choose your utilities, you just choose your weaponset and your two legendaries and that’s your entire skillbar set. It probably means it’ll be relatively easy for ArenaNet to balance, due to a relative lack of distinct builds, but it also might mean that revenants find it more difficult to eke out the most optimal setups and to adjust to changes in the meta.

The problem isn’t so much that that Revenent is OP its that it has been designed with 3 years of experience in the game with a more involved type of gameplay while the other classes have pretty much stagnated for 3 years and still have traits/skills/class mechanics that are proving to not work with how the game plays. Then you throw on top of that some of the traits and skills that do sound a bit over the top in effectiveness.

Maxzero.4032:

That barrier raises all sorts of questions. You just know there will be a trait that reduces two handed weapon cooldowns by 20% so you would be looking at 9.6 second CDs.

Imagine if they got traited reflect on Barriers?

That’s a lot of “if’s”. Not all weapons get cooldown reductions from traits I think.

But that barrier is already broken in the way we saw it and it would need to get a cooldown increase and a duration nerf, and it would be a prime candidate for applying some of the new tech where barriers absorb X number of projectiles and then shatter. Like the Koda’s in EotM.

It’s mobility is such a big strength. Something like Swirling Winds, or Smoke Screen are powerful as well. But they have much longer cooldowns and are static.

Levetty.1279:

The problem isn’t so much that that Revenent is OP its that it has been designed with 3 years of experience in the game with a more involved type of gameplay while the other classes have pretty much stagnated for 3 years and still have traits/skills/class mechanics that are proving to not work with how the game plays. Then you throw on top of that some of the traits and skills that do sound a bit over the top in effectiveness.

This is absurd reasoning, the other classes have been receiving updates to balance their skills and while they’ve not been receiving any new skills, they are getting new skills in the expansion to further widen their repertoaire of abilities. Saying that the Revenant is unbalanced because it is newer than the other professions? Now thats just silly.

Lue.6538:

Levetty.1279:

The problem isn’t so much that that Revenent is OP its that it has been designed with 3 years of experience in the game with a more involved type of gameplay while the other classes have pretty much stagnated for 3 years and still have traits/skills/class mechanics that are proving to not work with how the game plays. Then you throw on top of that some of the traits and skills that do sound a bit over the top in effectiveness.

This is absurd reasoning, the other classes have been receiving updates to balance their skills and while they’ve not been receiving any new skills, they are getting new skills in the expansion to further widen their repertoaire of abilities. Saying that the Revenant is unbalanced because it is newer than the other professions? Now thats just silly.

1. Old classes aren’t getting new skills, specializations are.
2. They have been receiving updates to balance for 3 years and they are still full of traits, skills and mechanics that are useless or don’t fit in with the game, Revenant doesn’t seem to have this problem as they are designing it with better knowledge of how the different modes work in practice.
3. Some Revenant skills/traits do seem a bit over the top.

Please actually read my post next time tanks.

Terrahero.9358:

Maxzero.4032:

That barrier raises all sorts of questions. You just know there will be a trait that reduces two handed weapon cooldowns by 20% so you would be looking at 9.6 second CDs.

Imagine if they got traited reflect on Barriers?

That’s a lot of “if’s”. Not all weapons get cooldown reductions from traits I think.

But that barrier is already broken in the way we saw it and it would need to get a cooldown increase and a duration nerf, and it would be a prime candidate for applying some of the new tech where barriers absorb X number of projectiles and then shatter. Like the Koda’s in EotM.

It’s mobility is such a big strength. Something like Swirling Winds, or Smoke Screen are powerful as well. But they have much longer cooldowns and are static.

To my knowledge every single weapon has a trait somewhere that lowers the CD. It’s possible the Revenant will be different though.

It’s ease at applying Confusion, Retaliation and Stability all of which is tricky for other classes (except Mesmer for Confusion) is another big plus.

But as someone else said it’s going to have the benefits of experiences from the evolution of all the other classes. Don’t see any boring signet builds, not reliant on AI, access to quality AOE, access to boon striping etc.

In its current state, of course there is a LOT of work to be done, but they come off as incredibly weak. Hammer’s damage is terrible, mallyx seems clunky and unreliable, jallis is sort of “meh” (hammers do poor damage, taunt has a high cost for a so-so CC that even slows the enemy removing some of the comboing potential of confusion), and so on. Frankly, I’m not impressed by hammer. Mace/Axe looks fun, but I have a feeling it’ll only get solid play if it’s like sword for warriors and scales well with both power AND condition damage, so that it can be ran as a Celestial or Carrion build. Beyond that, their combat potency seems rather low.

They’re still cool though, and I’d love to play one. I just hope they don’t end up that bad once some more polish hits them and they get their other 2 trees.

ronpierce.2760:

Hammers do poor damage…
——- snip —-—
Mace/Axe looks fun, but I have a feeling it’ll only get solid play if it’s like sword for warriors and scales well with both power AND condition damage, so that it can be ran as a Celestial or Carrion build. Beyond that, their combat potency seems rather low.

For the hammers on revenant, don’t forget, they’re all wearing celestial and two whole trait lines weren’t available, particularly the power-tree.
Hammer damage might seem mediocre right now, but they aren’t even geared/traited for a power weapon.

As they were wearing full celestial in the demo, celestial mace/axe might not work if you think they already seem weak. You’ll probably have to mix and match celestial gear with other gear or, as you said, run carrion or another condi-spec.

We cannot tell if class is OP or not at this point.
Very few people outside ANet have played it in its unfinished state.

All these speculations come from Forum Warriors who have no experience with the class.

I guess some people have nothing better to do than rampant speculation about things that have no bearing on their actual lives. I used to do it all the time, back before I had responsibilities an’ sich.

Levetty.1279:

Lue.6538:

Levetty.1279:

The problem isn’t so much that that Revenent is OP its that it has been designed with 3 years of experience in the game with a more involved type of gameplay while the other classes have pretty much stagnated for 3 years and still have traits/skills/class mechanics that are proving to not work with how the game plays. Then you throw on top of that some of the traits and skills that do sound a bit over the top in effectiveness.

This is absurd reasoning, the other classes have been receiving updates to balance their skills and while they’ve not been receiving any new skills, they are getting new skills in the expansion to further widen their repertoaire of abilities. Saying that the Revenant is unbalanced because it is newer than the other professions? Now thats just silly.

1. Old classes aren’t getting new skills, specializations are.
2. They have been receiving updates to balance for 3 years and they are still full of traits, skills and mechanics that are useless or don’t fit in with the game, Revenant doesn’t seem to have this problem as they are designing it with better knowledge of how the different modes work in practice.
3. Some Revenant skills/traits do seem a bit over the top.

Please actually read my post next time tanks.

1. Strawman. The specialization can be toggled at (almost) any given time according to the information we’ve received so far, it is also “bound” to a specific profession already in the game. Facts are as follows: The specialization WILL add skills to the existing professions, yes, they do aesthetically acquire a new name with the specialization but they are never the less still the same profession, merely with additional options for skills. Old “classes” are therefore indeed getting new skills, albeit in the form of specializations.

2. So simply put: Theres unbalanced skills around now, yet people work around them? The difference is that the previous skills have been under scrutiny for an extended amount of time, whereas the revenants skills hasn’t and it wont be reasonable to expect it to be “balanced” in any way or form until it has solidified a position for itself among the other professions. As for “useless” skills, I’d say they’re “underused” and not useless. They don’t hold their own within the current meta and is therefor overlooked and could absolutely use a thorough review, it is however absurd to claim that the revenant will not have such skills, there will always be skills that the playerbase value higher than others.

3. Now we’re on the other end of the spectrum from point #2, and unfortunately, the same holds true here: There are skills that may be “over the top” for all professions. In general however, you’ll find that it is combinations of skills that truly makes a profession “op” rather than its individual skills.

Finally, it is rather silly to throw in one of those “please read my posts” comments don’t you think? A sort of “hidden” insult, backed up by a patronizing ‘happy’ smiley that can best be discribed as a passive aggressive way of saying that “you don’t undestand what I’m saying”. Give it a rest, it is just sad.

Well from the few videos of PvP i saw (ignoring that Revs aren’t finished), they seemed pretty balanced. Sure, the players had little time to adjust and find alot of little tricks and stuff, but getting rekt in a 2 rev vs. 1 necro scenario, where the Necro wasn’t even that good, shows that even after the time it takes to “master” the class it should be pretty balanced. Unless the unknown legends kitten things up which i can totally see happening, what with that “stealth teleporting all over the place while attacking”-skill Rytlok used in the trailer.

Maxzero.4032:

To my knowledge every single weapon has a trait somewhere that lowers the CD. It’s possible the Revenant will be different though.

This is not correct.

Swords do not get a cooldown reduction for Guardian or Warrior.
Mace for Guardian gets no cooldown reduction.
Scepter for Guardian and Necro gets no cooldown reduction.

It’s a very common type of trait, but it’s not universal.

Lue.6538:

1. Strawman. The specialization can be toggled at (almost) any given time according to the information we’ve received so far, it is also “bound” to a specific profession already in the game. Facts are as follows: The specialization WILL add skills to the existing professions, yes, they do aesthetically acquire a new name with the specialization but they are never the less still the same profession, merely with additional options for skills. Old “classes” are therefore indeed getting new skills, albeit in the form of specializations.

2. So simply put: Theres unbalanced skills around now, yet people work around them? The difference is that the previous skills have been under scrutiny for an extended amount of time, whereas the revenants skills hasn’t and it wont be reasonable to expect it to be “balanced” in any way or form until it has solidified a position for itself among the other professions. As for “useless” skills, I’d say they’re “underused” and not useless. They don’t hold their own within the current meta and is therefor overlooked and could absolutely use a thorough review, it is however absurd to claim that the revenant will not have such skills, there will always be skills that the playerbase value higher than others.

3. Now we’re on the other end of the spectrum from point #2, and unfortunately, the same holds true here: There are skills that may be “over the top” for all professions. In general however, you’ll find that it is combinations of skills that truly makes a profession “op” rather than its individual skills.

Finally, it is rather silly to throw in one of those “please read my posts” comments don’t you think? A sort of “hidden” insult, backed up by a patronizing ‘happy’ smiley that can best be discribed as a passive aggressive way of saying that “you don’t undestand what I’m saying”. Give it a rest, it is just sad.

1. Its not a strawman. At most, it looks like Specializations will add one new weapon and switch out one traitline for another. So you’re looking at 5 skills at most (Elementalist being the wildcard), with a 1:1 exchange on traits. That’s NOT even in the same ballpark as an entirely new profession, which by the way the Revenant will also be getting a specialization, so comes out way ahead in terms of design and tech compared to the old professions.

2. http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Fire_Shield – there are many skills like this, spread throughout the existing professions, that have minimal effects, and in the case of the Ele especially, insanely high cooldowns. The Revenant is being designed from the ground up with the lessons learned from the last 3 years, whereas the existing professions are still bogged down by underpowered skills, traits that still don’t work or are bugged, and all manner of issues. The Revenant will NOT have these issues, by the simple fact that its being freshly designed to integrate into an existing 3 year meta cycle.

3. When individual skills outshine entire other professions, then yes, they’re OP, otherwise, its apparent you don’t understand basic definitions of words. If you can look at skills like “Rite of the Great Dwarf” and not see insanely OP designed skills being thrown willy nilly onto the upcoming selling point of the new expansion, then you must not be much of a competitive player.

Lastly, people are just bummed that from everything that has been shown, the tech effects of the entire Revenant class, if they are added at all to existing professions will likely only be Specializations. So Rangers who stay Rangers, Warriors who stay Warriors, etc. will still be using the same skill effects they’ve been seeing since release. Sure, we might see a technical re-work of Stability, and numbers balancing, but the whiz bang effects of skills are unlikely to change.

Good post by Kaleban, explaining the problems clearly. Lets see if you are willing to read their post.

Sarif.1827:

How in the nine bloody hells of Balthazar are people coming to the conclusion that Rev will be OP?

The logic is simple.

A – I don’t want to play a revenant.

therefore

B – I should take to the forums and complain about revenants being OP so they are nerfed and easier for me to kill.

Happens all the time. Hell, in Fallen Earth before they’d even commenced alpha testing the community wailed for one particular kind of skill to be nerfed into oblivion and the developers gormlessly obliged. More difficult to acquire than other skill lines. Same skill point cost. But total crap.

Game bombed. Developer went bankrupt. Go figure!

I actually don’t think its OP, i think it will just be extraordinarily useful in all aspects of the game, pvp, wvw, and pve. There is no info that suggests it will be op, but merely just more useful than some classes (I.E. NECRO). That is what angers me more, that it will be bloody more useful than the class i have mained since beta.

Kaleban.9834:

1. Its not a strawman.[..]That’s NOT even in the same ballpark as an entirely new profession, which by the way the Revenant will also be getting a specialization, so comes out way ahead in terms of design and tech compared to the old professions.

1. Old classes aren’t getting new skills, specializations are.

That was the statement, that is de facto a strawman where an attempt was made to point out a distinct difference between the old professions and their specializations, the specializations are still de facto tied to a single profession(For example: The only profession getting access to the druid is the ranger) and as such, the skills that come WITH the specialization is again, de facto, tied to that profession which by all logical conclusions mean that the “old classes” are infact getting new skills, albeit indirectly through the added feature of specializations.

While you’re obviously right that the revenant is going to get vastly more skills than the other professions do I have to say that expecting anything else is pretty absurd regardless of how much the “tech” has improved. This is hardly something thats new and unique for GW2 but rather something that occurs when a new class/profession is introduced in any game at a later point. The logic that the profession due to being introduced at a later stage must come out on top of the other professions is pure speculation on your part and quite frankly, the one part we can be absolutely certain off is that there will be an inbalance of some sort in the expansion but in what way or what profession it will favor the most remains to be seen.

Kaleban.9834:

2. […] The Revenant is being designed from the ground up with the lessons learned from the last 3 years, whereas the existing professions are still bogged down by underpowered skills, traits that still don’t work or are bugged, and all manner of issues. The Revenant will NOT have these issues, by the simple fact that its being freshly designed to integrate into an existing 3 year meta cycle.

As mentioned in regards to point 1: This is pure speculation, whereas there is no doubt that they’ve been able to draw upon some rather vast experience gathered during the previous years and how the other professions have played out.

I’ll also refer to my previous post:
As for “useless” skills, I’d say they’re “underused” and not useless. They don’t hold their own within the current meta and is therefor overlooked and could absolutely use a thorough review, it is however absurd to claim that the revenant will not have such skills, there will always be skills that the playerbase value higher than others.[…]

Players will lean towards using the strongest skills availible, your argument that the revenant developed with knowledge attained after the initial professions were implemented would somehow attain a perfected balance between all skills is not only absurd, it is plain impossible. The strive to obtain the most efficient build possible will attract people to levitate towards a specific build that has proven to function and that will de facto cause skills to be overlooked and thus, less valued.

Kaleban.9834:

3. When individual skills outshine entire other professions, then yes, they’re OP, otherwise, its apparent you don’t understand basic definitions of words. [..]

The problem here is that you’re trying to compare two incomparables.

First you’re comparing a skill, then you’re trying to correlate that skills power to that of an entire profession which consists of a rather vast amount of skills. Even if we narrow it down to only the 10 actively selected skills for this particular moment, it is still a rather silly statement. While I don’t doubt that the skill might prove to be fairly strong, I also have no doubts that the skill will not on its own “outshine entire professions”.

Oh, and the fact that one does not share your opinion on the skill does not in any way or form correlate to ones “competitiveness” or ones ability to “comprehend basic definitions”.

Kaleban.9834:

Lastly, [..]but the whiz bang effects of skills are unlikely to change.

Still a matter of choice, while I can personally perceive it as an illusion of choice rather than actual choice, it is still up to each player to individually decide wether or not they want to embrace the specialization or remain with their current “class”.

What’d prove really dull however, would be if the existing professions prove to be much better than the incoming specializations and that only 1 or 2 turns out to be reasonably viable compared to the already well established builds of the existing professions.

Lue.6538:

That was the statement, that is de facto a strawman

A strawman is where instead of arguing against somebodies argument you create a superficially similar argument to argue against because its easier to do. The only use of a strawman in this thread is your first response to me.

Levetty.1279:

A strawman is where instead of arguing against somebodies argument you create a superficially similar argument to argue against because its easier to do. The only use of a strawman in this thread is your first response to me.

Don’t go muddying the water with facts. That’s unfair! :P

Nike.2631:

By “no information” you do mean a fairly complete look at three of their trait lines, two legends, and a weapon set, right? Because that’s plently to put together some builds with and think “hmmm, that trait right there is WAY more powerful than a similar trait we already know well…”

A look at a clearly defined Test build that is heavily seated in its’ alpha testing… Remember the changes to the classes from CBT1 to 2? or 2 to 3? to Launch? Massive power swings occurred each time with more and more feed back. This also applies to Traits and legends.

Technically, yes, you CAN build a complete build from what we have, but we don’t even know if those traits are where they want them at the moment, place holders for the actual balanced versions. For all we know, these traits could just be subtle hype-train fuel for the Expac.

Anet relies heavily on Player Testing to find a balancing point and they have a clear base line in mind (not that they discuss with us what it is mind you) because at the end of the day, there is a lot more man-hours on our side of the table then theirs, and they know this.

Nike.2631:

If I wanted to go with blind fear-mongering I’d just point out that Revenant inherited its lead designer from WARRIOR and if you don’t think that class has been coddled just a wee bit by the Class Balance team, you haven’t been playing the same game as the rest of us.

Well, that would be blind fear-mongering, although as a I have been playing since launch and my ONLY level 80 is a guardian, Yes, I know it feels like the warrior is clearly loved, but would it be any different if it was Mesmer? or Thief? There will always be that one class that’s leading the power curve, and one that is at the end of it, the trick to “balance” in my book is to get those two ends as close as possible.

If it is all just Blind Fear, I think the industry as a whole has given us so many lessons that new classes come in hot, and that is where a lot of this “woe” is coming from.

Nike.2631:

Truthfully I don’t think it’s shaping up to be grossly over powered, but its gonna land right in the top tier with a couple of _really questionably “balanced” traits unless we see a LOT of clean up and love given to the non-golden child classes of the game (hint: everyone not in heavy armor)._

Can you tell me which ones you find to be OP? and why? I want like.. solid numbers and information to consider here, mostly because I can’t seem to see it. Also, truly OP things in my book don’t work in just a single super specific situation, but in most to all situations.

Terrahero.9358:

But if you don’t see a problem in an ability that removed 2 boons and applies 5x confusion (to up to 5 enemy targets), that can be spammed, I don’t know what to tell you because you’re obviously not into any kind of pvp content.

And what about Null Field? Granted, I’m not a huge Pvp’er, nor a Mesmer, but when I do pvp, Null Field seems to do a hell of a good job striping boons and applying conditions. Spamed? you can toss five of these out IF you happened to be sitting at max energy, don’t do anything else and have three unique conditions on you already.

I might just not have the experience (I’m Wolf Ranked) but that just doesn’t seems… over the top given other things we can already do.

Terrahero.9358:

Another is the Hammer ability to raise a wall that protects against projectiles. It lasts 6sec and has a 12sec cooldown. A 50% uptime on something that grants complete protections against projectile based attacks, not just for you but anyone else behind that shield, seem balanced to you?
In WvW a zerg with a few Revenants and a bit of coordination is almost untouchable for ranged builds if this ability goes live as it is. Ow and it’s also a Dark field, so yummy yummy Lifesteal.

That wall is scaring a lot of people, which on the surface, I can understand, Wall of Reflection seems to mess up some people from time to time, but I have never seen it stop anyone that knows what they are doing, and the big one here:

The shield is not set right in front of you. It wouldn’t be beyond the realm of possibility to simply walk though it and shoot away, or push the poor guy into a corner and then shoot him to hell, or light up the ground under them and kill them with AEs. As a Guardian, I am intimately familiar with how a projectile blocking wall works, I can tell you having a Wall doesn’t do as much to save you from good players, good groups or coordinated groups. in sPvP most of the good players I run into tend to favor unavoidable attacks such as AEs, Conditions, Heavy Burst, Melee, and a solid mix of all the above.

Watching the videos of people actually using Lifesteal, it doesn’t seem to heal a lot, and that’s not a lot of sustain to try and build a functioning class off of. Something like 64per hit, for a total (assuming your only spamming 1 the whole time) 256ish (Uptime on the wall/rate of fire on Hammer 1 rounded down times healing amount (48*64 = 256)). That is weaker then Virtue of Resolve…

WvW however is a different animal and the dynamics of how large scale battles work in there drastically affects how skills work, but even coordinated, there are many things you can do to prevent this from working. Take a Guard into sPvP or WvW, and use Wall of reflection and what everyone rush you in melee, the same will happen with Rev, even with a 50% up time. Which, Mind you, I doubt will stay the same. I can see the energy cost of these skills shooting up closer to launch.

Terrahero.9358:

Just two examples, but there’s more. If you’re more of a pve player, what about that aoe field that displaces a target? It pulses, jump that on a boss and it will remove a lot of that new defiance mechanic. Simply because the boss doesn’t get displaced, stays in the field, and eats 5 CCs from a single ability.

In comparison to what? we don’t even know how much of the Break Bar the current classes will be able to handle, Will Memsers be Break Bar kings? Will Hammer Warriors be the true terror of world bosses? Could Guardian Hammer 4 Break a Bar on its’ own?

Yes that seems strong vs a solo fight (as we have seen so many from the story section Referencing Bog Otter’s video here), but making accusations like this without having a valid comparison or a control sample is just speculation and hearsay.

Terrahero.9358:

Now obviously it’s still a work in progress. However everything seems to incredibly streamlined for Revenant and very good. Even the “bad” stuff we’ve seen so far is still very good when compared to other professions. And that’s where concerns come from.

Ok this I can get, and I completely agree with you on this fact! But as I have heard said quite a few times, the Revenant is one of the LARGEST selling points of this expac, and so yes, Anet is going to only show it in a unrealistic light of amazement. This is farther reenforced by the “Small Vertical Slice” the demo takes place in. Everything in a game is hand crafted, and everything made by man is designed to express certain things. In the Demo’s case, How amazing the Revenant is.

draxynnic.3719:

I’ve been thinking myself that people may have been missing some of the weaknesses of the revenant.

A big one in my mind is a lack of customisability. It’s even worse off than the elementalist in that respect – you can’t even choose your utilities, you just choose your weaponset and your two legendaries and that’s your entire skillbar set. It probably means it’ll be relatively easy for ArenaNet to balance, due to a relative lack of distinct builds, but it also might mean that revenants find it more difficult to eke out the most optimal setups and to adjust to changes in the meta.

This. If the Revenant is to be of any kinda threat in PVP, it will have to have different build set ups (like everyone else is now) or numerically over the top to make up for the fact that you have no hidden cards. One of the biggest things you hear PVP’ers of any caliber talk about is figuring out your opponent’s tool kit and then countering it for the win, and if the Rev is basically “Yo Dawg, he’s my kitten”, I think any half decent PVP’er will be able to avoid a lot of the big things and latch on to the Rev when they are in their downtime.

It would also suck if the Revenant had less Utilities then the other classes because of the legend lock out. I can think of a few way to avoid this off the top of my head, but that’s for a different post XD

Kaleban.9834:

1. Its not a strawman. At most, it looks like Specializations will add one new weapon and switch out one traitline for another. So you’re looking at 5 skills at most (Elementalist being the wildcard), with a 1:1 exchange on traits. That’s NOT even in the same ballpark as an entirely new profession, which by the way the Revenant will also be getting a specialization, so comes out way ahead in terms of design and tech compared to the old professions.

We know this: Spec will add a new weapon, a new Trait line, new Profession Mechanic, and add some new Utilities.

My guess (And I stress this is a guess) is four new utilities because they are going to pull the fifth trait line and the utilities attached to them (Example: Guardian’s Virtues, the Virtues Trait Line and Consecrations.) It was in a interview video for Angry Joe or MMORPG where they said the new profession mechanics where coming.

As for the exact numbers of new skills, as of right now, it’s all hearsay. 2? 3? 10? 40? no one that knows, is saying anything.

Also, this has nothing to do with what I asked.

Kaleban.9834:

2. – there are many skills like this, spread throughout the existing professions, that have minimal effects, and in the case of the Ele especially, insanely high cooldowns. The Revenant is being designed from the ground up with the lessons learned from the last 3 years, whereas the existing professions are still bogged down by underpowered skills, traits that still don’t work or are bugged, and all manner of issues. The Revenant will NOT have these issues, by the simple fact that its being freshly designed to integrate into an existing 3 year meta cycle.

You assuming the lessons you learned are the ones they learned and your assuming that they are designing the Revenant to be some kinda supreme class that has no flaws.

With a focus on Esports, and a drive to step foot into that money making pool, I can guarantee you, the Revenant will have its’ will have flaws, and they will be glaring, just as much as other classes, decent business practices will force this. As with all things Game Development related, at the end of the day, they need to make decisions that make money too.

As for the Metas and how valuable some traits are and are not: this is not the point of this thread, and I would appreciate getting back on to topic.

Kaleban.9834:

3. When individual skills outshine entire other professions, then yes, they’re OP, otherwise, its apparent you don’t understand basic definitions of words. If you can look at skills like “Rite of the Great Dwarf” and not see insanely OP designed skills being thrown willy nilly onto the upcoming selling point of the new expansion, then you must not be much of a competitive player.

Like… Healing Signet outshining Virtue of Resolve even with Healing Power stacked to the teeth? This is nothing new and it seems to fit into their system just fine. People still play Guardians, myself included.

How is Rite of the Great Dwarf OP? How does this defeat other classes by it self? It cost 40% of your max energy, and grants an unknown Damage Reduction amount (which could be anything from 0.00001% to 99.999% for all we know.). Explain to me how this is overpowered. I’d like to know!

Kaleban.9834:

Lastly, people are just bummed that from everything that has been shown, the tech effects of the entire Revenant class, if they are added at all to existing professions will likely only be Specializations. So Rangers who stay Rangers, Warriors who stay Warriors, etc. will still be using the same skill effects they’ve been seeing since release. Sure, we might see a technical re-work of Stability, and numbers balancing, but the whiz bang effects of skills are unlikely to change.

Aside from being completely off topic, the only new effect the Reveant is getting in cascade damage, which, personally, I’d gladly trade for a instant area of effect. if you are referencing whole “dis-attached camera” thing, that’s not really anything new pers se, just spell effects used in cleaver ways (Render character model invisible, generate secondary character model, apply mist sub-effect materiel replacement, use hammer leap animation at range, snap back to starting location, delete secondary character model, enable visuals on primary model.) None of which are new, just not really seen in one place before.

This would make for a great new topic, I suggest going and making it!

These traits for weapons are a joke to begin with. They should be completely removed in my opinion and i hope revenant doesnt have have any as its a boring desing and weapons without them feels incomplete and weak in many cases.

Traits should be all about utility and so far, they did a great job with that in revenant. Traits itself are not even bound to legendary stances except that one which grants immunity boon while using mallyx skills. I like that personally as i dont have to take Jalis for retribution trait line.

Its funny how everyone are concerned about low dmg output on hammer in cele gear which will be probably on pair with ranger lb if not higher actually. Make a ranger with celestial amulet and no traits/runes which should result in 1365 power, 458 damage in tooltip at max range in long range shot – compare that with the tooltip on 1 with hammer.

Now we olny dont know how well hammer on revenant scales with power, but i dont think its going to scale bad considering the fact he doesnt have a weapon swap, on top of that his damage ability on skill 2 in max range might be actually pretty close to eviscrate damage.

But well while you all looking at how low he hits with that hammer, im more curious about his skill utilities, actually n.3 on hammer to be precise. It seems like it goes to kitten all gap closers and bursts;

Example 1;

In the POI where the leap was used, the mob actually turned back to the leap targeted location instead of continuing to follow the original position of revenant. What if i lets say use rush/swoop and at same time revenant will use his leap somewhere else lets say behind me? Will i continue to going to the original location of revenant or i will turn around like the mob in poi that will “kitten” my gap closer? I think the latter.

Example 2;

Lets say a warrior or mesmer used immo at me and started to use hb/blur frenzy. At same time i have used this magical leap that seems more like a teleport with animation that ignores cripple/chill/immo. In theory im not psychically there anymore where someone burst me down, instead im going to the targeted location. Will i continue taking damage or ill avoid it completely?

Also what about projectiles? Will they miss or actully hit me still? Theres no doubt that i will be able to avoid them by running out of range anyway.

Overall this class seems to be solid, but it also seems to to have a really high skill celling, and i doubt many ppl will be able to play it properly and push it t the limit. Many players will drop this class probably within a month. But inst is something that should apply to every class? Weak in noob hands, destructive in skilled hands?

I dont know how it will look like in the end as we still dont have full list of traits, weapons or skill damage coefficient, but personally im looking forward to this class as the mechanic of it fits my playstyle perfectly. Will it be underpowered, or overpowered? Will it be easy to play or harder than ele+engi combined? Time will tell. Theres olny 1 thing i know atm, ranting that hes OP is absurd as we still dont know much about him.

For example 1;
http://www.twitch.tv/guildwars2/b/627401366
19;50

Scoobaniec.9561:

Traits should be all about utility and so far, they did a great job with that in revenant. Traits itself are not even bound to legendary stances except that one which grants immunity boon while using mallyx skills. I like that personally as i dont have to take Jalis for retribution trait line.

I agree, but the Traits should also play into each other and support out of trait lines, most of the current metas I know about are the way they are because they require 6 points in a line, add the most beneficial support to skills or game-play, and out class other lines, skills or abilities in terms of their utility.

It’d be nice to be able to truly mix and match trait, not just for the Rev, but every class and Spec.

Scoobaniec.9561:

Now we olny dont know how well hammer on revenant scales with power, but i dont think its going to scale bad considering the fact he doesnt have a weapon swap, on top of that his damage ability on skill 2 in max range might be actually pretty close to eviscrate damage.

Close, but I’d believe manging to hit that (given how far you have to be and the giant tellagraph for PVP sake, and the lack of stacking for PVE) will be a little harder then most give it credit for. I big question would be how well does the ability track along the ground and can it go up walls!

Scoobaniec.9561:

But well while you all looking at how low he hits with that hammer, im more curious about his skill utilities, actually n.3 on hammer to be precise. It seems like it goes to kitten all gap closers and bursts;

Example 1;

In the POI where the leap was used, the mob actually turned back to the leap targeted location instead of continuing to follow the original position of revenant. What if i lets say use rush/swoop and at same time revenant will use his leap somewhere else lets say behind me? Will i continue to going to the original location of revenant or i will turn around like the mob in poi that will “kitten” my gap closer? I think the latter.

I’d think you’d turn after the Rev, but If you watch some of the press videos closely, you can see people using that skill, and taking Burning ticks from the Wyvern’s Fire on the ground, It’s not a invunerabilty state and your still able to take damage, yes, it might screw up a few closers here and there, but I don’t think it’s going to ruin much.

Scoobaniec.9561:

Example 2;

Lets say a warrior or mesmer used immo at me and started to use hb/blur frenzy. At same time i have used this magical leap that seems more like a teleport with animation that ignores cripple/chill/immo. In theory im not psychically there anymore where someone burst me down, instead im going to the targeted location. Will i continue taking damage or ill avoid it completely?

If ti works like any other leap attack, the Immobileize wont allow the Rev to leap away, and I think at the heart of the skill, it is a Leap, just with a shadowstep back at the end of it. This however, will require hands on play testing to put to rest.

Scoobaniec.9561:

Also what about projectiles? Will they miss or actully hit me still? Theres no doubt that i will be able to avoid them by running out of range anyway.

I believe the ones that are moving fast enough can hit, and if you leap towards the shooter, it will only make it easier to hit, As far as missing, I’d reference you to EVE Online Projectile Turret mechanics (Projectile’s speed, angle of approach, size, vs Target’s distance, speed, angle of approach and size). basically, you’d have to be Leaping away at a 45 degree angle with enough distance between you and the shooter to make up for the lack of speed in the leap compared to most projectiles (Sorry Guardian’s Specter )

Scoobaniec.9561:

Overall this class seems to be solid, but it also seems to to have a really high skill celling, and i doubt many ppl will be able to play it properly and push it t the limit. Many players will drop this class probably within a month. But inst is something that should apply to every class? Weak in noob hands, destructive in skilled hands?

Agreed, but this really only matters in Competitive Play. In Co-Op play, you want as much OP on your side as you can get! I also play a little game called Warframe, and that is mostly a Co-Op game with a lot of insane abilities the players can use, and even though I might not play the current meta, I don’t mind when I play with others that do because, HEY! They are on my side! Not everyone feels this way, and sometimes, you need to make a High Skill cap class for those that are really good at fitting into a mold can shine!

Thanks for your feedback man, I didn’t think about the skill cap and how that might affect some people’s view.

Sarif.1827:

draxynnic.3719:

I’ve been thinking myself that people may have been missing some of the weaknesses of the revenant.

A big one in my mind is a lack of customisability. It’s even worse off than the elementalist in that respect – you can’t even choose your utilities, you just choose your weaponset and your two legendaries and that’s your entire skillbar set. It probably means it’ll be relatively easy for ArenaNet to balance, due to a relative lack of distinct builds, but it also might mean that revenants find it more difficult to eke out the most optimal setups and to adjust to changes in the meta.

This. If the Revenant is to be of any kinda threat in PVP, it will have to have different build set ups (like everyone else is now) or numerically over the top to make up for the fact that you have no hidden cards. One of the biggest things you hear PVP’ers of any caliber talk about is figuring out your opponent’s tool kit and then countering it for the win, and if the Rev is basically “Yo Dawg, he’s my kitten”, I think any half decent PVP’er will be able to avoid a lot of the big things and latch on to the Rev when they are in their downtime.

It would also suck if the Revenant had less Utilities then the other classes because of the legend lock out. I can think of a few way to avoid this off the top of my head, but that’s for a different post XD

Considering the prevalence of meta builds I think customisability is not much of an issue. How is a Turret engineer customized? Show me the Power Rangers that don’t run Lightning reflexes and Signet of Stone. How many Elementalists don’t run Cantrips as their utilities?

Builds aren’t as unique or mysterious as people think.

Levetty.1279:

Lue.6538:

That was the statement, that is de facto a strawman

A strawman is where instead of arguing against somebodies argument you create a superficially similar argument to argue against because its easier to do. The only use of a strawman in this thread is your first response to me.

I’ll summarize it all for you then, strawman or not.

the other classes have been receiving updates to balance their skills and while they’ve not been receiving any new skills, they are getting new skills in the expansion to further widen their repertoaire of abilities…

This is my initial reply to you, where you claim that briefly summarized, you create the illusion where the Revenant due to being implemented later than other professions have an unfair advantage in terms of skills and traits: _ it has been designed with 3 years of experience in the game with a more involved type of gameplay while the other classes have pretty much stagnated for 3 years and still have traits/skills/class mechanics that are proving to not work with how the game plays. _

That leads to you replying with the following: 1. Old classes aren’t getting new skills, specializations are.

Granted, it may not be a strawman since you’re not misrepresenting MY claim but in reality, wether or not it is a strawman or not is insignificant to the point I’m trying to get across. It is still a matter of you trying to create a false relationship between the old existing professions and the new specializations. The fact remains that even IF the professions only get new skills within the new specialization, they are still bound to that particular profession and thus, the profession is getting the new skills.

You can’t deal with the specialization as a separate entity from its profession.

Sarif.1827:

And what about Null Field? Granted, I’m not a huge Pvp’er, nor a Mesmer, but when I do pvp, Null Field seems to do a hell of a good job striping boons and applying conditions. Spamed? you can toss five of these out IF you happened to be sitting at max energy, don’t do anything else and have three unique conditions on you already.

Null Field is an aoe, and needs to be traited to apply Confusion. Of which it applies very little. Only 1 stack of Confusion for 4seconds. Null Field has a duration and requires time to tick.
It also features a 40seconds cooldown. Both abilities cap at affecting 5 players. It removes conditions from allies so it has defensive applications as well.

Sarif.1827:

That wall is scaring a lot of people, which on the surface, I can understand, Wall of Reflection seems to mess up some people from time to time, but I have never seen it stop anyone that knows what they are doing, and the big one here:

Watching the videos of people actually using Lifesteal, it doesn’t seem to heal a lot, and that’s not a lot of sustain to try and build a functioning class off of. Something like 64per hit, for a total (assuming your only spamming 1 the whole time) 256ish (Uptime on the wall/rate of fire on Hammer 1 rounded down times healing amount (48*64 = 256)). That is weaker then Virtue of Resolve…

I don’t know what to tell you if you cannot even see the problem in an ability that allows for a professions to negate projectile based attacks half the time.

How would, f.e., a Ranger with a LB deal with this? Getting close enough to even hug him that his shield won’t protect him is easier said. Revenant may not be the fastest out of combat, but it is one of the most mobile professions in combat. Entirely by design if going by arenanets news post.
Of course when hugging a Revenant, goodluck dodging things like those chains and enjoy eating them swirling hammers.

The scenario’s you described of dealing with a Revenant apply to pvp situations where you 2 or 3 to 1 him. Which isn’t reasonable, as while 3 of you are busy dealing with the Revenant there are 4 enemy players who only have to deal with 2 of you guys on the other points.

Big issue is WvW. Where the meta of Hammer train is bad enough as it is, it doesn’t need to be made even stronger by more Hammers of all things.

As for the life steal healing, it’s a little more than that. That total number you calculated is actually closer to what a single hit would heal. With 0 healingpower, Dark combofield + projectile finisher heals 202 per hit. With an efficiency of ~.1 scaling with healingpower.
That is a significant level of healing, in the video’s we’ve seen so far it was healing for 280+ for the Revenant. But that’s with Celestial stats.

Sarif.1827:

In comparison to what? we don’t even know how much of the Break Bar the current classes will be able to handle, Will Memsers be Break Bar kings? Will Hammer Warriors be the true terror of world bosses? Could Guardian Hammer 4 Break a Bar on its’ own?

Yes that seems strong vs a solo fight (as we have seen so many from the story section Referencing Bog Otter’s video here), but making accusations like this without having a valid comparison or a control sample is just speculation and hearsay.

Again based on footage. This ability seemed to stack fairly significantly on the champion he was fighting. Overflowing the break bar with that skill alone, where the big Hammer aoe was worth the same as 2 ticks from the Anguish, filling about half. And Anguish is somewhat spammable with no cooldown.

Sarif.1827:

Ok this I can get, and I completely agree with you on this fact! But as I have heard said quite a few times, the Revenant is one of the LARGEST selling points of this expac, and so yes, Anet is going to only show it in a unrealistic light of amazement. This is farther reenforced by the “Small Vertical Slice” the demo takes place in. Everything in a game is hand crafted, and everything made by man is designed to express certain things. In the Demo’s case, How amazing the Revenant is.

But it is amazing. And overpowered, very much so. It may be in alpha but that makes this the exact right time to give such feedback rather than waiting till release and then telling the devs “oi, this stuff was OP since you showed it for the first time”.

Terrahero.9358:

-snip-

A class that gets rekt 2v1 against a badly playing Necro is not OP. Well, not YET, anyway. Sure the skills look amazing on paper, but in PvP (and nobody cares about a class being overpowered in PvE) all of the skills of the Rev have downsides. Sure, the wall blocks projectiles… It just doesn’t help the Revenant against Necros spamming staff and wells, Eles spamming ground AE’s, thieves teleporting in and shredding them in melee etc. etc. If the projectile-block would be so prevelant the meta would simply shift. Then we have the Cascade-Skills, that are, for the most part, easily dodged (road of stone, that rift that pulls you in), or do a lot less damage up close. Revenants can taunt? Sure, go ahead and taunt that thief /warri that reks you with clicking 1 anyways. The Rite of the Dwarf is a) an Elite so expected to be powerful, and b) don’t we even know how great the damage-reduction would be. Also keep in mind the Revenant cannot just swap weapons so if they go Hammer, they go Hammer. Meaning going poof against Melee-oriented classes. The “jump in and shadowstep enemies away” is annoying, sure, but as a melee you want to stand exactly next to your enemies, not have them tp’d away, and as a ranged you’d rather leap AWAY instead of ending withing 2 or 3 enemies who might also be ranged shredding you to pieces. The condition-control Mallyx does is nice and dandy, but as soon as Necros and Mesmers start to strip/corrupt their resitance boon, they will drop like flies to selfimposed+additional conditions, and mallyx cannot exactly do much against power-pased attacks. Same goes for Jalis, his taunt will be annoying and good in teamfights, but in a 1v1 Scenario against a class that mostly spams away 1, anyways, it doesn’t help much, plus it can most likely be broken by a stunbreak/cleansed by an ally.

As for might-stacking with firefield + triple-blast-finisher…Not really a problem in PvP. For one, to get 2 or more Blasts into that fire-field you’d need to either find a way to bug it, or waste a dodge to reposition yourself fast enough.

So , I actually think the things currently known about the Revenant are in a pretty balanced state in PvP and WvW atm. Distinct weaknesses (Ground-targeted AE’s, stuns/immobs (only 2 stun breakers currently, of which one takes up a trait and forces a stance-switch), no weapon swap , only 2 legends, Melee-Power-Users with blinks, Power-users in general for Mallet/Axe, boon-strip + corruption, widely telegraphed skills and a ressource(although that can be seen as both an advantage and a disadvantage)). It will all change again once we learn of the other Legends and weapons, but currently ,even if there might be some skills that are slightly too weak/strong, it is nothing that number-changes cannot fix, i don’t see anything fundamentally flawed.

Sarif.1827:

Like… Healing Signet outshining Virtue of Resolve even with Healing Power stacked to the teeth?

To be fair, Healing Signet is a slotted and sometimes traited heal, while VoR is default to the Guardian with another slotted heal.

Shiki.7148:

A class that gets rekt 2v1 against a badly playing Necro is not OP. Well, not YET, anyway.

I’m guessing you mean the Stronghold footage?

Because most of those players were really bad. Then factor in theyre playing an entirely new profession which is probably not the easiest to master on a computer that they are not used to either.

So it doesn’t surprise me one bit. I would like to propose we do not look at balance from the perspective of players who barely play(ed) GW2 and have had hardly any experience with Revenant. That seems like a poor baseline.

Terrahero.9358:

Shiki.7148:

A class that gets rekt 2v1 against a badly playing Necro is not OP. Well, not YET, anyway.

I’m guessing you mean the Stronghold footage?

Because most of those players were really bad. Then factor in theyre playing an entirely new profession which is probably not the easiest to master on a computer that they are not used to either.

So it doesn’t surprise me one bit. I would like to propose we do not look at balance from the perspective of players who barely play(ed) GW2 and have had hardly any experience with Revenant. That seems like a poor baseline.

Yeah of course the Revenants were bad and new and all (said so in my first post about it), but the point is, the Necro was BAD AS HELL, too. And they were TWO Revenants. So if both players would have been good and it would have been 1v1, i think the outcome would have been either 60:40 or 50:50. Which is pretty balanced.

Lue.6538:

Levetty.1279:

Lue.6538:

That was the statement, that is de facto a strawman

A strawman is where instead of arguing against somebodies argument you create a superficially similar argument to argue against because its easier to do. The only use of a strawman in this thread is your first response to me.

I’ll summarize it all for you then, strawman or not.

the other classes have been receiving updates to balance their skills and while they’ve not been receiving any new skills, they are getting new skills in the expansion to further widen their repertoaire of abilities…

This is my initial reply to you, where you claim that briefly summarized, you create the illusion where the Revenant due to being implemented later than other professions have an unfair advantage in terms of skills and traits: _ it has been designed with 3 years of experience in the game with a more involved type of gameplay while the other classes have pretty much stagnated for 3 years and still have traits/skills/class mechanics that are proving to not work with how the game plays. _

That leads to you replying with the following: 1. Old classes aren’t getting new skills, specializations are.

Granted, it may not be a strawman since you’re not misrepresenting MY claim but in reality, wether or not it is a strawman or not is insignificant to the point I’m trying to get across. It is still a matter of you trying to create a false relationship between the old existing professions and the new specializations. The fact remains that even IF the professions only get new skills within the new specialization, they are still bound to that particular profession and thus, the profession is getting the new skills.

You can’t deal with the specialization as a separate entity from its profession.

Apart form the fact you are wrong about new skills for specializations counting as new skills for the base class due to how the specialization actually works, its a moot point anyway because not everybody is going to buy the expansion.

you have to love how people over react to something that is NOT a finished product and has not even been to beta testing,

reminds me of Elementalist at lunch lol

Bahlol.6125:

you have to love how people over react to something that is NOT a finished product and has not even been to beta testing,

reminds me of Elementalist at lunch lol

Reminds me bullrush>frenzy>hb. Such a lovely “op” combo back then

Dude…. “classes” have been OP months before the game was even launched. Don’t even bother with ppl like these who have nothing else to do other then comment on how OP their imaginative class is and how based on fictive numbers and facts they are.

even if it is OP as hell, it will be fixed, every class should be unique, Anet can make mistakes….. a week or two they will fix everything and the number of people playing the revenant will be lower and it wont be op but like all other classes