Revenant Problem

Revenant Problem

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Posted by: jacim.5904

jacim.5904

Am I the only one that sees weapons as a huge problem for the class. Its looks as if every specific weapon is tied to a legend and seen as you are not able to weapon swap this makes you remain in the stance that benefits what you are wielding. An example would be wielding a staff and being in Mallyx stance, theres no sinergy between them, so why would I ever do this?? I guess just to take advantage of the heal??. Please leave your opinion, wanna know whether people agree with me or im just plain wrong.
Im from Argentina so please try to grasp the idea, Im not available to explain myself to perfection.

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Posted by: mercury ranique.2170

mercury ranique.2170

I’ve played revenant in the beta for 6 hours straight and don’t see your issue at all. There was only mallyx and Jalis available and only mace/axe and hammer (tried both). And there is no real synergy between any of the weapons and the legend-skills. But then again, no class has synergy between the utlitly skills and the weaponsskills, besides ocasional combo’s.

Reality in the current game (and nobody knows if that holds) is that on most classes only a few weapons are viable and only a few utility skills are. Most are viable cause of DPS, simply cause other things are not needed. As long as this stays the same (and personally I’m fine with that). The revenant will be the same that only strong dps legends and strong dps weapons will be meta. If this changes, then the revenant and the other classes will look at the forgotten skills. This has nothing to do with synergy, but with lack of choice in the current meta.

Arise, ye farmers of all nations
Arise, opressed of Tyria!

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Posted by: Kaiden Valor.7163

Kaiden Valor.7163

Well thinking about it. You could use the staff healing to help counteract some of the conditions Mallyx will impose upon you. Or use the healing to help tanky Jalis tank some more. Just as an example for the staff.

People may find they play Ventari legend better at range and thus need to use the hammer.

I agree at first glance they look like they’re designed for specific legends, but I think they’ll work in various mix and match setups.

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Posted by: Diovid.9506

Diovid.9506

People thinkt the following:

Salvation = Ventari = Staff
Retribution = Jalis = Hammer
Corruption = Mallyx = Mace / Axe

I think in time however people will get more creative (and better) at mixing weapons, legends and specializations.

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Posted by: skowcia.8257

skowcia.8257

Weapons playstyles are not directly linked to legends and vice versa. For example you dont have to play condi mace/axe build with Mallyx or even condi traitline in such case.

Traits on it own are mostly a extra utilities offering better damage, better sustain depending on choice etc with exception of few traits that directly support X legend lately (Salvation and Ventari) but even then you still have a choice in Salvation to pick up utilities you want that are not tied to legend like removing condi on a dodge or daze on elite.

Legends on it own are nothing else than;

Mallyx – offensive condi type utility
Jalis – defensive/support type utility
Ventari – support/heal type utility.

Its up to you what you choose.

obey me

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Posted by: IndigoSundown.5419

IndigoSundown.5419

So, I get two legends. Say I pick Ventari and Jalis.

  1. Can I equip mace/ax? (If not, I would assume I have to choose between hammer and staff.)
  2. If I’m in Ventari do the 1-5 skills work the same with hammer as they do with staff?
  3. If I’m in Jalis with a staff, do I have Jalis 1-5 skills or staff 1-5 skills?

Just how does this work?

(edited by IndigoSundown.5419)

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Posted by: Belzebu.3912

Belzebu.3912

You can equip any weapon available for the rev, no matter your legends, you can go staff + Jalis/Mallyx or mace/axe + Ventari/Jalis or hammer Mallyx/Ventari and so on.

The 1-5 skills are tied only to the weapon, so hammer skills with Jalis will be the same with Ventari, staff skills with Ventari will be the same with Mallyx, only the utilities (6~0 skills) changes depending on legend.

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Posted by: Zaoda.1653

Zaoda.1653

I seriously hope Revenants are changed so they get weapon swap and faster attack speed on the hammer skills. I want to be able to use hammer and mace/axe.

Forever a supporter of more male skimpy armor

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Posted by: Belzebu.3912

Belzebu.3912

I can guarantee that Revs won’t get weapon swap.

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Posted by: lukejoe.1592

lukejoe.1592

It does seem odd for a martial, situational character to not get weapon swap. I see there point for why it’s excluded (and revs are well compensated to the exclusion), I just don’t think it was absolutely critical in order to keep the professions balanced. Weapon swap is such a core feature of GW2 it seems odd that they would jettison it on the only new profession we’re likely to ever have.

Rev utilities do or don’t have cooldowns? That would certainly color someone’s opinion of them getting weapon swap.

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Posted by: skowcia.8257

skowcia.8257

It does seem odd for a martial, situational character to not get weapon swap. I see there point for why it’s excluded (and revs are well compensated to the exclusion), I just don’t think it was absolutely critical in order to keep the professions balanced. Weapon swap is such a core feature of GW2 it seems odd that they would jettison it on the only new profession we’re likely to ever have.

Rev utilities do or don’t have cooldowns? That would certainly color someone’s opinion of them getting weapon swap.

Most of them dont with some exceptions i believe but they have short cd’s anyway. Jalis road on 5cd, ventari anti projectile dome 5cd and natural harmony on 2cd. These smalls cds are here to prevent certain powerful skills from spamming like no tomorrow as their effect is powerful. That should be applied to thief desing as well (along with ini on utilities)

As for weapon swap i disagree. I personally dont like it. Engi and ele doing fine without this feature, i believe revenant will be doing fine as well unless they mess up something with their desing badly (overnerfed abilities).

obey me

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Posted by: Belzebu.3912

Belzebu.3912

Engineer (medium armor) and Elementalist (light armor) also don’t have weapon swap but have many 1~5 skill options due their class mechanic.
Revenant (heavy armor) also won’t have weapon swap but in compensation they will have access to 10 utilities (6~0 skills), also many skills doesn’t have cooldown, they consume energy instead.

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Bardy Belzebuson – Ranger Sir Belzebu – Herald
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Posted by: Puls.5867

Puls.5867

I think everything will work okay with everything I mean it would be a little silly if mace and axe only worked with mallyx and not your other legend swap (: I imagine that a specific weapon might feel stronger with 1 legend but I think of it like this wether I use Condi or power on my Mesmer my utilities are usually survival or something to counter the counter of what I am using if that makes sense? (:

Tsento – Mesmer | Timcarnate – Revenant | Timigami – Necromancer

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Posted by: ReaverKane.7598

ReaverKane.7598

I think everything will work okay with everything I mean it would be a little silly if mace and axe only worked with mallyx and not your other legend swap (: I imagine that a specific weapon might feel stronger with 1 legend but I think of it like this wether I use Condi or power on my Mesmer my utilities are usually survival or something to counter the counter of what I am using if that makes sense? (:

They do work. Weapons and Legends aren’t directly codependant.
Thing is, Malix Is heavily condition based, and so far only weapons that do conditions are axe/mace.
So pretty much if you want to play condition damage you’re bound to that combination, then since each legend is tied to one trait like/specialization, you’re already stuck there.
Its not that it won’t work. I’m just concerned that the devs are making too many choices for the players, and unwillingly limiting our choices by a lot.
At the very least each legend should have like 2 heals, 4-5 utilities, elite not so much.
Or at the very least there should be a generic set of utilities and a heal that is available to all legends.
That and players should also be able to pick racials. That would give a bit more flavor and options.

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Posted by: makagoto.1204

makagoto.1204

i wonder whether the elite spec for the rev will also swap your weapon skills together with the utility skills. 10 Glint skills for example could really rock the house :-)

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Posted by: ReaverKane.7598

ReaverKane.7598

Actually, i think Revenant would be better if they’d actually have generic Weapon skills and a generic heal skill, as basis (with cooldown, no energy), no utilities or Elite.
On Channeling a Legend EVERYTHING would change to suit the legend. Like Channeling Jalis would give all weapons and all utilities the Jalis flavor.
Same for Malix, Ventari, etc. You could swap legends (which would require a bigger CD) or simply revert to “normal” state.
I think Revenant is a very Lore-centric profession, and the devs are letting the lore, nostalgia and the new tech carry the profession, instead of making it first about it fitting with the game and being relevant in the game.

I find it specially disconcerting that after so long having all other 8 professions being jack of all trades, and really not being able to master any but the DPS role due to the game’s constraints, now they’re trying to push one single class that can master ALL roles.
It really feels bad.
I mean i love the no-trinity thing, but players should be allowed to play a tank, or a dedicated healer, the game SHOULD have that option for all classes (although, of course not all classes should fit all roles, but guardians SHOULD be dedicated tanks or healers, warriors should be tanks, off-tanks or dps, even support with banners).
Every class should have what they’re doing with Revenantm but they don’t, so in the end Either Revenant will become irrelevant or too relevant, being the “healer” on the old trinity comic.

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Posted by: Dragon Ruler X.8512

Dragon Ruler X.8512

I agree with a lack of synergy in the areas where synergy is needed.

Disclaimer: Easiest way to solve the primary dilemma of Gear <→ Legend <→ Weapon is to use Celestial. This, I personally feel is wrong because it almost feels forced, but I will explain more below.

Looking at the current Legends and Weapons available most Min/Max players will see a serious issue. When everything is finalized most of us are expecting to see that each Legend has their own specialization line. This is fine in most cases, but with the Rev…we have a few issues.

Let’s take Ventari/Mallyx for example and start there.

Mallyx is condi-oriented and also utilizes a mechanic that sends monsters away from the character. With that in mind we can already assume that Staff would be a less than optimal choice since staff requires us to stay in close quarters combat to activate the heal orbs where as Mace/Axe would work great since we can shadow step over to our selected target. I realize that you could rush in with the Staff, but the main issue with this versus the Mace/Axe combo is that Mace/Axe already conforms to conditions.

Looking at Ventari we can see that it is healing based, but the current numbers in the healing are small. It also requires other players to know that they need to pick up the orbs to heal which may be hard for the less agile players. We can easily see that Staff was designed around Ventari and so Staff is the better choice. Other options work, but let’s move on to gear.

Knowing I have Condi and Healing Power based Legends I instantly look at gear containing these stats. This limits me to: Settler’s, Apothecary, Shaman, or Celestial. If I want to maximize healing I’d use Apothecary, Condi – Shaman, Survival – Settler’s, or If I wanted a mix of everything Celestial. Let’s assume I take Settler’s.

After fully gearing up in Settler’s gear and recalling the above comparison we know that Mace/Axe and Staff are my two main choices. If I want a more condi based approach – Mace/Axe. If I want a more healing based approach – Staff. To make everything easy – let’s assume I choose to carry both weapon sets with me so I can change up when needed.

Here’s where the issue comes in. Though we haven’t seen the other Legends yet and thus can’t speculate on them – we do know that given the fact that I have now specified my gear for my character that I am optimized for those 2 Legends. Switching to Jalis would be bad since that Legend thrives more on Power. Therefore it can be argued that after gearing up in anything other than Celestial gear – you have optimized yourself likely for 2 specific Legends – and possibly only 2 specific Legends. This removes the utility of the Rev. entirely. Specialization lines won’t change the fact that your gear just isn’t suited for optimizing the other Legends. Weapons won’t have optimal synergy with other Legends. Therefore – the Rev. is forced into Celestial gear to try to retain some of the synergy of the other Legends and Weapons they use.

It seems counter intuitive that we can’t weapon swap if we are only given 2 Legends to work with and just 1 Legend has a rather clear influence on the weapon of choice.

I will also note that Ventari’s healing is very limited unless you spec into healing power. Not to mention that it is shared among your party in most cases – further reducing the effectiveness.

The last note I’ll bring up is that the Rev is going to have a major disadvantage in terms of utilities. With 1 weapon set you gain access to only 5 skills for your 1 → 5. With 2 Legends you gain access to only 10 skills for your 6 → 10. Every other class with a weapon swap has access to 10 on the left and 5 on the right, but every class without a weapon swap has a more interesting dynamic set for themselves. Elementalists have 20 skills on the left and 5 on the right while Engineer’s have access to 25, 20, 15, 10, 5 on the left and 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 on the right respectively. And this isn’t including the Flip Skills of each class.

I personally feel like the true power of the Rev is going to be undermined by the pure variety of things that it will have access to. I also feel like the weapons will mostly only be optimized for 1 Legend and have little to no synergy with the other Legends you will have access to.

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Posted by: Faux.1937

Faux.1937

I personally cant wait for Revenant in Pvp, I feel it will be very strong with Celestial (unless the nerf makes Celestial unplayable) if that is the case then I would look at Rabid/rapagers/carrion

Either way I feel Revenant Weapons arnt there to make the Class and weapon are a Part of the Legend, I feel the legend makes the place style and with it the Weapons.

I mean Shiro wouldnt be seen with a Focus or hammer XD

SAB or RIOT

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Posted by: ReaverKane.7598

ReaverKane.7598

I personally cant wait for Revenant in Pvp, I feel it will be very strong with Celestial (unless the nerf makes Celestial unplayable) if that is the case then I would look at Rabid/rapagers/carrion

Either way I feel Revenant Weapons arnt there to make the Class and weapon are a Part of the Legend, I feel the legend makes the place style and with it the Weapons.

I mean Shiro wouldnt be seen with a Focus or hammer XD

You illustrate my point exactly.
The class is being driven too hard by the lore component, and not really on the playability of it.
I hope i’m wrong but it seems to me that Revenant is probably the worse class to level up. And i’d almost swear that the main reason for the new process of unlocking skills is to conform a bit to Revenant, since the old method of unlocking skills out of a pool wouldn’t work for it, and thus the new theme of unlocking pools in a “theme” is born.

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Posted by: Faux.1937

Faux.1937

but I like it lore based :o

SAB or RIOT

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Posted by: Mournilg.4870

Mournilg.4870

I think many people don’t see the global image of the legend swapping/traits/weapons.

Everything is taken from CURRENT state.

I read a lot of Mallyx is condition/offensive, but you can also see it as defensive self-condi managment helping a zerk (Shiro?) spec.
If the dps legend is purely offensive, it will lack condi managment, so it’s up to you to decide what you prefere : clean it or use it to your advantage.
Plus some of Mallyx (corruption trait line) traits are giving increased critical hit chances, damage increase for every condi on you and resistance boon. So you can go direct damage and still use it.
Same for weapons, you are not forced into a weapon set, hammer will be the 1200 range weapon whatever legend you use.

At the moment, the only thing that bugs me is the lack of a 4th utility skill to give at least one choice if there is one you don’t want to use.
During the beta, when alone, Mallyx Pain absorption was used to half it’s real power, while playing other classe, you can change it for something else fitting solo play, the revenant cannot or must completely swap legend (and probably a full traitline)

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Posted by: Knighthonor.4061

Knighthonor.4061

You all dont know that. Staff could be made more bursty by Shiro legend traits and skills. Also the elite spec could be some additional ranged weapons and traits. I wonder if they will get a “skill type” tho.

i still believe they should do Racial legends.

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Posted by: skowcia.8257

skowcia.8257

I think i am the olny one that see potential in rev ;o
Ofc if they get proper stunbreaks/defiance bar..as it stands now it doesnt look well.

Mace/axe is not really a condition set, its a hybrid. For that reason it should work well with all legends. Out of 5 legends i think olny Mallyx wont work without any investment in condi/corruption line for resistance as it stands now.

For example Ventari will be picked up mostly for condition cleanse/projectile block

Imo they may release a revenant now with 3 utilities, but in future they must add more as it is their core gameplay mechanic like it is for ele to swap attunements or engi kits.

12 utilities per legend and maybe extra elite should do the trick to provide a flexibility in customize revenant needs. Question is does AN willing to do that? If not then i want at least f2 to get 3th legend to swap as the amount of general skills compared to old professions is lower and a joke in comprasion to ele/engi.

But in case of weapon swap, i still disagree.

obey me

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Posted by: MattyP.6954

MattyP.6954

Being able to hot-swap utilities in combat provides a level of flexibility that no other classes have, so of course the have to balance by removing flexibility in other places. It’s a new class, but it isn’t supposed to be better than any of the other classes.

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Posted by: Black Box.9312

Black Box.9312

Yeah, I’ve been thinking along these lines as well. From what I’ve heard from guildmates that have played through the betas, mace/axe didn’t fit very well with Jalis and hammer didn’t work very well with Mallyx. It just seems weird to me that they’d tie weapon sets so specifically to certain playstyles that reflect each legend, but remove the weapon swap so you’re essentially pigeonholed into specializing in only one of your two legends. It gives me the impression that most builds will have one effective legend, and a second one that’s pretty much only used when the other skills are on cooldown.

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Posted by: skowcia.8257

skowcia.8257

Being able to hot-swap utilities in combat provides a level of flexibility that no other classes have, so of course the have to balance by removing flexibility in other places. It’s a new class, but it isn’t supposed to be better than any of the other classes.

Yeah, but what if you end up with other abilities that are useless in x situation?

For example Shiro most likely will get shadowsteps – why you would use that with hammer weapon where you want to stay at max range? Unless it ground targeted and can be used to escape you already ends up with useless utility. There are many examples like it. Mallyx pain absord..yeah cool for teamfights, whats about solo settings? Useless.

Yeah, I’ve been thinking along these lines as well. From what I’ve heard from guildmates that have played through the betas, mace/axe didn’t fit very well with Jalis and hammer didn’t work very well with Mallyx.

I agree with hammer+Mallyx but i disagree with mace/axe+Jalis as it worked fine and actually even better if you count these these spinning hammers for extra dps.

obey me

(edited by skowcia.8257)

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Posted by: Belzebu.3912

Belzebu.3912

You all dont know that. Staff could be made more bursty by Shiro legend traits and skills.

That is not how GW2 works.
Take guardian for example, no matter the set and traits you pick, mace won’t be a damage weapon compared to other guardian weapons, you can rise its damage but will always be a support weapon.
Shiro legend can probably make staff more bursty, but I’m pretty sure that almost any other rev weapon would be stronger (damage wise).

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Posted by: MattyP.6954

MattyP.6954

Being able to hot-swap utilities in combat provides a level of flexibility that no other classes have, so of course the have to balance by removing flexibility in other places. It’s a new class, but it isn’t supposed to be better than any of the other classes.

Yeah, but what if you end up with other abilities that are useless in x situation?

For example Shiro most likely will get shadowsteps – why you would use that with hammer weapon where you want to stay at max range? Unless it ground targeted and can be used to escape you already ends up with useless utility. There are many examples like it. Mallyx pain absord..yeah cool for teamfights, whats about solo settings? Useless.

Then create your builds around legends and weapons that work together for the gametype you’re playing. Also, skills are only useless insofar as you can’t find a use for them—that doesn’t mean that they don’t actually have a use.

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Posted by: skowcia.8257

skowcia.8257

Being able to hot-swap utilities in combat provides a level of flexibility that no other classes have, so of course the have to balance by removing flexibility in other places. It’s a new class, but it isn’t supposed to be better than any of the other classes.

Yeah, but what if you end up with other abilities that are useless in x situation?

For example Shiro most likely will get shadowsteps – why you would use that with hammer weapon where you want to stay at max range? Unless it ground targeted and can be used to escape you already ends up with useless utility. There are many examples like it. Mallyx pain absord..yeah cool for teamfights, whats about solo settings? Useless.

Then create your builds around legends and weapons that work together for the gametype you’re playing. Also, skills are only useless insofar as you can’t find a use for them—that doesn’t mean that they don’t actually have a use.

I have a idea. Play your ranger/engi with olny one type of utility. Dont mix kits with gadgets and so on. Just pick up one utility type and tell me how well you did. Actually i have a better idea. Make a video.

Some revenant utilities are too situation and we should be able to swap them for something else that fits x legend theme. By not slotting Shiro you already losing burst option. Pain absord is and will be useless in solo settings. That removes 1 usable skill from any solo revenant already, and he doesnt have many of them to begin with.

obey me

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Posted by: Mournilg.4870

Mournilg.4870

skowcia was faster than me
Pain absorption is the best exemple we have because we had the chance to test it and yes, in solo settings it’s useless, not because the skill is bad, in group settings it gives a good amount of resistance, but in solo setting, it is the only skill that is so useless you play with one less skill, like a thief not using a left hand weapon, because no offhand skills are awesome (or not…)

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Posted by: Black Box.9312

Black Box.9312

Being able to hot-swap utilities in combat provides a level of flexibility that no other classes have, so of course the have to balance by removing flexibility in other places. It’s a new class, but it isn’t supposed to be better than any of the other classes.

Yeah, but what if you end up with other abilities that are useless in x situation?

For example Shiro most likely will get shadowsteps – why you would use that with hammer weapon where you want to stay at max range? Unless it ground targeted and can be used to escape you already ends up with useless utility. There are many examples like it. Mallyx pain absord..yeah cool for teamfights, whats about solo settings? Useless.

Then create your builds around legends and weapons that work together for the gametype you’re playing. Also, skills are only useless insofar as you can’t find a use for them—that doesn’t mean that they don’t actually have a use.

The problem is that each weapon set looks to be so specifically tailored to a certain playstyle that matches a specific legend that no matter how you build your Revenant you’re going to be stuck with a weapon that doesn’t synergize with one of your two legends.

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Posted by: Spartacus.9743

Spartacus.9743

Consider that we don’t know at the moment how the revenant elite specialization will work. . Maybe we will be able to use 3 legends instead of two, or maybe we can bound a weapon set with each legend we’ll use. …
in any case I see the revenant well balanced with the legends traits and each weapon set avaliable. ..
Skills from both weap/utilities with low cool down, so we won’t have problems about use only autoattack, only sb rangers and dagger thieves will suffer from that

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Posted by: Dragon Ruler X.8512

Dragon Ruler X.8512

Consider that we don’t know at the moment how the revenant elite specialization will work. . Maybe we will be able to use 3 legends instead of two, or maybe we can bound a weapon set with each legend we’ll use. …
in any case I see the revenant well balanced with the legends traits and each weapon set avaliable. ..
Skills from both weap/utilities with low cool down, so we won’t have problems about use only autoattack, only sb rangers and dagger thieves will suffer from that

My only qualm with your statement is that we should not be forced into an Elite Specialization just to fix the functionality of the Revenant that should already be a part of it to begin with because then we are not only restricted in some of the many things pointed out in the above posts, but also restricted on our trait lines. It would be like telling us that if you want to be a good Revenant you have to only play with 2 Specializations since you are forced to take the Elite one to fix all the other problems with your build.