Guild Wars 2

Yelloweyedemon.2860:

Trinity, or better, roles is what makes a role playing game great. In serious MMOs for lets say a 12 man raid, you needed 1 tank, 1 off tank, 1 healer for the group, 1 healer for just the tanks, 2 support classes (1 buffer 1 debuffer), 2 ranged dps and 4 melee dps. Everyone of course needs to know exactly what he’s doing or the whole group will wipe because of 1 person. This is what makes a game great. It gives you the actual satisfaction that you acomplished something, and not just facerolled another instance.

That type of definition of “role”, especially when pertaining to RPGs, looks like it would make excellent trolling material to use on the RP communities of any fandom.

“What’s all this nonsense with everyone having fancy backstories and character play? You aren’t playing a role by being some damaged hero with a tragic past. You’re a tank! Now go grab a shield and actually play your role in the game by keeping the dragon’s attention while I throw fireballs at it.”

Why does the Offical GW2 forums drinking game not have a spot for Trinity threads????

On a serious note Anet has never opposed a trinity. They stated that a bunch of times. They are against a hard trinity, as in you NEED a tank, healer, and dps. What Anet has is more of a soft trinity, where there are defined roles that people can play (support, control, and damage) without making any role mandatory. I know someone is gonna say “Well everyone needs to deal damage” so I will clarify that when I say damage role I mean people who forsake skills that offer high control/support for skills that maximize on dealing damage.

The problem with the game, that again Anet has mentioned that they know it’s a problem and they hope to fix with HoT, is that right now mob AI doesn’t really make a need for control/support heavy roles. Most mobs can be killed using auto attack and that’s something Anet is trying to break away with HoT by introducing something like breakbars that adds a desire for high control builds to stop a boss from using big attacks.

Dexlmentia.7391:

When I said, “Trinity is an essential part of gaming,” people automatically assumed I was talking about a WoW like scenario. Roles or some variation thereof are indeed essential to variety. Simple gear stats don’t cut it. Try role-playing like a dedicated healer in Cleric’s gear or any other similar stat set and see how well received you are in a dungeon or fractal.

No, I understood that you were talking about exactly what you just restated here. And no, they aren’t essential to “variety” — in fact, you just described something that (to me) feels like the antithesis of variety, in that each profession can only handle one type of role.

Again, I’m not arguing that Trinity is bad per se; it can be an element of fun & exciting gameplay. I’m saying it’s never been essential to a good game. The fact that, to date, you’ve preferred trinity-based games doesn’t change that.

Just because MMO/RPGs have traditionally used Trinity doesn’t make it fundamental; it came about as an almost inevitable accident from RPG’s Pen&Paper design and early limitations of computer gaming. There are all sorts of ways to modernize gaming: virtual reality could create a very non-linear physics instead of being parallel to earth physics, it can use trinity or some other model, and so on.

tl;dr just because there’s nothing wrong with traditional mechanics doesn’t mean any of them are required in a good game.

I’m sorry, but as a former GW1 player who spent hours waiting for just one healer, and even having a monk leave Dragon Arena in the middle of a match just because he couldn’t use healing skills, I like the system that GW2 has much better.

Tirien.1326:

Maybe there are ways to go support for something, havent seen the need for it yet tho.

one thing you fail to see:
support is not the stats on your armor. these are numbers wich are comfort for your gameplay.
support are the skills you use at the right time to safe your teammates kitten.

if you are playing guard in my group in a projectile heavy fight, i will thank for your support using wall of reflection.
if you are playing guard in my group and use aegis because you see me already failing the dodge on lupicus kick wich would down me instant, then i will thank you.

if you are my guard in the group in ascalonian katacombs and fail at every encounter stability where its needed and just spam some heal with your clerics-staff, i will rage hard.

…its not about the stats, its about the skills & traits. if skills & traits are enough and do not need to be powered up through stats, why run them?

ImTasty.2163:

Why does the Offical GW2 forums drinking game not have a spot for Trinity threads????

On a serious note Anet has never opposed a trinity. They stated that a bunch of times. They are against a hard trinity, as in you NEED a tank, healer, and dps. What Anet has is more of a soft trinity, where there are defined roles that people can play (support, control, and damage) without making any role mandatory. I know someone is gonna say “Well everyone needs to deal damage” so I will clarify that when I say damage role I mean people who forsake skills that offer high control/support for skills that maximize on dealing damage.

The problem with the game, that again Anet has mentioned that they know it’s a problem and they hope to fix with HoT, is that right now mob AI doesn’t really make a need for control/support heavy roles. Most mobs can be killed using auto attack and that’s something Anet is trying to break away with HoT by introducing something like breakbars that adds a desire for high control builds to stop a boss from using big attacks.

I agree with this for the most part.

The only thing I’d say differently is this. Anet has never even stated they are against roles, it’s never been stated that they are against healing/tanking/dps/control/support, or any other role someone can come up with. The idea of a “soft trinity” wasn’t to cut out healing/tanking, or to make the trinity support control damage. It was simply the idea that no one is locked into playing a certain role because of there class. Any class IN THEORY should be able to fill all roles. Not all classes should be able to fill all roles at all times.

I dint think it was ever the intention to cut out roles completely, just make them accessible easily to all classes to keep the game " play how you want" but keep your playstyle/role important.

You see many replies to this thread. And threads like it saying “everyone can do anything, this makes roles pointless” to a certain extent that’s true. This is how I see it.

You can build zerker . All damage , and still have enough survivability that your not sacrificing Anything for going full dps, making the decision to build anything but dps sub par.

I don’t think the idea behind anets take on the trinity was to cut out roles…

Just to make them open to all professions easily so no player is locked into any one playsyle.

I feel the problem lies in the current state of the game, where there’s no content that puts an emphasis on any other role then dps, (a few expentions is in PvP. Which is why I love PvP.)

If raids or any other content are placed into the game which bring the necessity for these roles forward. I dint think they will be adding a hard trinity to guild wars, sure you may need a healer to do x raid. But who’s going to be your designated healer? The gsurdian? Rev?ele? No.

Its going to be whoever wants to play a healer. I don’t see this as an introduction of a hard trinity into the game, just opening up the combat system to include all the pieces it was built around, and I’ll welcome that with open arms Any day.

( horrible scaling on toughness and healing power is also a problem)

That’s all I got <3

It’s been DPS since it shipped, and three years later its still about DPS.

Support? Water fields…maybe. Other than that? Time warp?

This game is still way aways from an earth ele or sword & board warrior pulling aggro so the other four can survive long enough to burn the enemy down.

Personally, I do not care for the zerker meta… I want to play with what I want… and I aim for survivability. I came from the trinity games (Rift, WoW) and originally made my necro a tanky healer (with clerics) on purpose… and guess what, no one dies in dungeons with guild or pug runs. I sure as hell don’t, either.

The current problem, and the problem with all games… nay, life… is people are impatient. They want to do things as fast as possible instead of enjoying what’s around them, strategizing, and killing mobs as would have to be done if they were sitting at a D&D session with friends. Instead, they aim for high-DPS and use exploits (line-shooting with ice bow and friends, LOS-grouping mobs) and ruin any fun there would be in the fight.

There is no way around people being impatient and exploiting game mechanics (which devs only encourage by not fixing them) without resorting to content that requires multiple roles be filled. They have, at least, tried to force groups be mix of condi and power now, which is nice, and gives variety. If they want to try to push for every player to consider at least one support skill to help the team… is that such a bad thing? Too many players are out to get things only for themselves with no consideration to help others. That’s not a good thing… in games or in real life. That is why the trinity happened… to enforce the model of helping others (some of us like being healers in other games).

Healers are slaves to some, and heroes to others. What the trinity would do in this game is make everyone play a character they do not want to play, or possibly be kicked from certain groups. Every group of five would need a tank & healer. That leaves three slots, putting necros, rangers, thieves, etc. at risk.

It also adds some really stupid AI assumptions to the game.

Pompeia.5483:

Personally, I do not care for the zerker meta… I want to play with what I want… and I aim for survivability. I came from the trinity games (Rift, WoW) and originally made my necro a tanky healer (with clerics) on purpose… and guess what, no one dies in dungeons with guild or pug runs. I sure as hell don’t, either.

The current problem, and the problem with all games… nay, life… is people are impatient. They want to do things as fast as possible instead of enjoying what’s around them, strategizing, and killing mobs as would have to be done if they were sitting at a D&D session with friends. Instead, they aim for high-DPS and use exploits (line-shooting with ice bow and friends, LOS-grouping mobs) and ruin any fun there would be in the fight.

There is no way around people being impatient and exploiting game mechanics (which devs only encourage by not fixing them) without resorting to content that requires multiple roles be filled. They have, at least, tried to force groups be mix of condi and power now, which is nice, and gives variety. If they want to try to push for every player to consider at least one support skill to help the team… is that such a bad thing? Too many players are out to get things only for themselves with no consideration to help others. That’s not a good thing… in games or in real life. That is why the trinity happened… to enforce the model of helping others (some of us like being healers in other games).

The zerker “meta” is a different issue – specifically because it’s entirely player driven.

Now imagine them intentionally designing encounters so you had to be all zerker to complete it. That’s the actual impact of trinity encounter design.

As far as the current “Meta” goes, it actually HATES selfish classes. Every class that’s desired adds significant support to the group, and those that aren’t wanted are the ones that don’t offer support

Manu.6078:

runeblade.7514:

… One of the lizard soldiers should probably attack the dps/healer to end the battle faster.

It happens (e.g FFXIV). A (bad) healer (if overheals), draws more aggro than any tank can do.

But the lizard soldiers still ignores the healer and dps like they were permanently stealthed.

Last I checked, the meta included sharing might, fury, and sometimes stacking vulnerability. Doesn’t “support” include dropping buffs? Control skills are also used by good teams.

The difference in GW2 is that teams don’t require specific classes to function. At worst, the meta has preferences (which, due to human nature, are really strong and some people treat them as rules). In other games, you wouldn’t be able to play some content without a dedicated healer.

Yelloweyedemon.2860:

Trinity, or better, roles is what makes a role playing game great. In serious MMOs for lets say a 12 man raid, you needed 1 tank, 1 off tank, 1 healer for the group, 1 healer for just the tanks, 2 support classes (1 buffer 1 debuffer), 2 ranged dps and 4 melee dps. Everyone of course needs to know exactly what he’s doing or the whole group will wipe because of 1 person. This is what makes a game great. It gives you the actual satisfaction that you acomplished something, and not just facerolled another instance.

This is exactly what I HATE about trinity. You just flat out can’t do the instance unless you have exactly those people. You don’t have the 12th? Guess what, no raid. Also, it’s friggin kittened that if one person doesn’t cleanse that one debuf then the tank dies and the raid wipes, or if someone is in the wrong position for just a second, and the healer dies, then the raid wipes (or whatever the mechanic might be). Those instances are too brutal and can take months to ever finish, if at all, because it was just too brutal.

Raids should be challenging, difficult, but doable. They shouldn’t take forever to finally get through it with the most dedicated team; you should be able to bring a new person in, and teach them how to do it and have the possibility of passing without wiping on the first boss for 2 hours. I’ve played those games, and they just aren’t fun.

The standard trinity is fundamentally stupid because it hinges on “tanks” — a role based entirely on BAD AI BEHAVIOR. This is why you don’t see ‘trinity’ behavior in games played between people from table-top RPGs to chess or in the real world either. Intelligent gamers and real combatants do not attack the enemy with the toughest armor and least damage output first. This is why ‘tanks class’ always have to restructured in PvP (and why healer classes get mauled first, foremost, and always in PvP)… Intelligent opponents don’t waste their time on tanks unless the game does a triple backflip to force you to prioritize them (such as forced behavior like GW2s new taunt condition).

Nike.2631:

The standard trinity is fundamentally stupid because it hinges on “tanks” — a role based entirely on BAD AI BEHAVIOR. This is why you don’t see ‘trinity’ behavior in games played between people from table-top RPGs to chess or in the real world either. Intelligent gamers and real combatants do not attack the enemy with the toughest armor and least damage output first. This is why ‘tanks class’ always have to restructured in PvP (and why healer classes get mauled first, foremost, and always in PvP)… Intelligent opponents don’t waste their time on tanks unless the game does a triple backflip to force you to prioritize them (such as forced behavior like GW2s new taunt condition).

Which is why I’m still not a fan of ‘taunt’ although it’s not so offensive gameplay wise.

Taunt that permanently assigns threat is just silly and weird.

~~

GW1 had some really clever ai behaviour that they couldn’t get functional for #2 for some reason.

To my memory:
Targeted proximity, especially if slowed
Targeted lower health followed by lower armor
Targeted casters over martial enemies
Targeted heavily based on damage taken.

Outside aggro they also fled AE’s if able.

You could still tank, but it was a very very different experience and you had to take some risks.

Still miss it sometimes, although it would make some content in the current game SO HARD

meeflak.9714:

I agree with this for the most part.

The only thing I’d say differently is this. Anet has never even stated they are against roles, it’s never been stated that they are against healing/tanking/dps/control/support, or any other role someone can come up with. The idea of a “soft trinity” wasn’t to cut out healing/tanking, or to make the trinity support control damage. It was simply the idea that no one is locked into playing a certain role because of there class. Any class IN THEORY should be able to fill all roles. Not all classes should be able to fill all roles at all times.

I dint think it was ever the intention to cut out roles completely, just make them accessible easily to all classes to keep the game " play how you want" but keep your playstyle/role important.

You see many replies to this thread. And threads like it saying “everyone can do anything, this makes roles pointless” to a certain extent that’s true. This is how I see it.

You can build zerker . All damage , and still have enough survivability that your not sacrificing Anything for going full dps, making the decision to build anything but dps sub par.

I don’t think the idea behind anets take on the trinity was to cut out roles…

Just to make them open to all professions easily so no player is locked into any one playsyle.

I feel the problem lies in the current state of the game, where there’s no content that puts an emphasis on any other role then dps, (a few expentions is in PvP. Which is why I love PvP.)

If raids or any other content are placed into the game which bring the necessity for these roles forward. I dint think they will be adding a hard trinity to guild wars, sure you may need a healer to do x raid. But who’s going to be your designated healer? The gsurdian? Rev?ele? No.

Its going to be whoever wants to play a healer. I don’t see this as an introduction of a hard trinity into the game, just opening up the combat system to include all the pieces it was built around, and I’ll welcome that with open arms Any day.

( horrible scaling on toughness and healing power is also a problem)

That’s all I got <3

I think you misunderstood me. I never said Anet wanted to do away with roles, I said they wanted to do away with the NEED for a certain role. The scenario they usually used was they wanted to do away with waiting 30 minutes for a healer. Their support/control/damage “soft trinity” is the idea that all players can play in a way that supports their play style without having to wait in long queues for group content. If you played a DPS class and waited in a queue for a game like WoW or SWTOR then you would have about a 30-45 minute wait. That was because you needed to have a tank and healer along with the DPS.

To the bolded that is correct. Anet has came out and said that the current content doesn’t really push players to think about having a greater focus on control and support. As it is right now, players can take the bare minimum as far as control and support goes and will perform just fine.

I find it funny that people both fail to see the teamwork that exists in GW2 (lets see you set a WR dungeon time or beat a gvg guild in wvw with equal numbers or win an ESL monthly with pugs) and are completely fooled by the illusionary teamwork of the trinity system.

First off don’t confuse what I am about to state with loving the trinity.

The way thing currently work with everyone in zerk and stacking in a corner is far more boring than any trinity. I find it’s also so much easier and requires pretty much no skill at all.

If they could come up with a way to give us the best of both worlds without actually introducing the trinity, that imo would be ideal.

They really need to come up with a mechanic that requires more than just max damage, and stacking in a corner. Increase damage 500% to stacked players in dungeons, if there is more than x players in an area of X range make mobs insta kill.

Maybe make this the heroic mode for dungeons, then people can still mindlessly build zerk and faceroll everything in normal mode.

I don’t know if what I have to say adds anything to the discussion, but here goes…

I’m in a very small guild — there’s only three of us. We love running dungeons together. Only having three people seems to allow for slightly more challenging encounters, and leaves a little more room for playing a “role.” I pretty much always play more of a support role, with my elementalist helping to keep everybody healed and alive. It’s not a true trinity but I get to play the part of the combat healer, in a way that’s very active and dynamic — doing damage, healing AND actually moving around at the same time. It all feels much more involved and challenging than I remember WoW being, as a healer.

Dexlmentia.7391:

Anet, why don’t you simply admit the Trinity is an essential part of gaming beyond the zergs we’ve had for three long years?

This incremental move toward roles, clearly demonstrated in the current and previous beta events, is tiresome.

Dexlmentia, why don’t you simply admit that Anet is just isn’t the game for you as you think that trinity is an essential part of gaming, but you are not alone in the world and a lot of other people like different thing that you do.

The constant qq and whining about trinity is tiresome. There is other game with Trinity why don’t you go play those and leave us alone?

Spurnshadow.3678:

Yelloweyedemon.2860:

Trinity, or better, roles is what makes a role playing game great. In serious MMOs for lets say a 12 man raid, you needed 1 tank, 1 off tank, 1 healer for the group, 1 healer for just the tanks, 2 support classes (1 buffer 1 debuffer), 2 ranged dps and 4 melee dps. Everyone of course needs to know exactly what he’s doing or the whole group will wipe because of 1 person. This is what makes a game great. It gives you the actual satisfaction that you acomplished something, and not just facerolled another instance.

This is exactly what I HATE about trinity. You just flat out can’t do the instance unless you have exactly those people. You don’t have the 12th? Guess what, no raid. Also, it’s friggin kittened that if one person doesn’t cleanse that one debuf then the tank dies and the raid wipes, or if someone is in the wrong position for just a second, and the healer dies, then the raid wipes (or whatever the mechanic might be). Those instances are too brutal and can take months to ever finish, if at all, because it was just too brutal.

Raids should be challenging, difficult, but doable. They shouldn’t take forever to finally get through it with the most dedicated team; you should be able to bring a new person in, and teach them how to do it and have the possibility of passing without wiping on the first boss for 2 hours. I’ve played those games, and they just aren’t fun.

You are the exact kind of person that does not want challenge, and wants every raid to be do-able by random pugs who can’t even speak english.

If raids are so easy as you want them to be, guild groups will just faceroll them day #1 and then we’ll go back to the current GW situation.

Thing is Anet understood that, heck the whole challenging content design. I really doubt that raids will be pug friendly.

If as you say “you can’t spend 2 hours on a boss because you can’t stay focused and move/cleanse dots when you have to”, then you can go ahead and play the same facerolling instances we’re stuck since day #1. The instances that require everyone to stuck together and melt stuff while wearing the same kind of gear no matter the class or build. This is not a game, it’s an easymode farmfest.

Also, it’s not only about the trinity. It’s about challenging content. Think is that GW2 showed us the past 3 years that without a sign of trinity or at least more dedicated roles, there can not be any challenging content.

I (and I bet everyone else who supports the “trinity” idea) would not mind having really challenging content without trinity, but if they tried something like that my bet would be that it would result to the typical zerker zerg the instance and go to semi retired in 1 week because of boredom… You know.. typical GW2 stuff…

Yelloweyedemon.2860:

Also, it’s not only about the trinity. It’s about challenging content. Think is that GW2 showed us the past 3 years that without a sign of trinity or at least more dedicated roles, there can not be any challenging content.

I (and I bet everyone else who supports the “trinity” idea) would not mind having really challenging content without trinity, but if they tried something like that my bet would be that it would result to the typical zerker zerg the instance and go to semi retired in 1 week because of boredom… You know.. typical GW2 stuff…

Trinity is like Raids. It’s replacing limited role difficulty for active/reactive difficulty. If Anet cant’ do better than role difficulty, I’d rather pass and play another mmo (but I don’t, which implies they can)..

With concerns to challenging content: Challenging content and trinity are not related. GW just has to find the right spot where its challenging without it. For example: remove stack spots and the game becomes more challenging combat wise. Add in side objectives so its not all about killing. Split the party up so we aren’t all focused on the same objective / stacked.

PS: “essential part of gaming”…. does not mean what you think it means.

I don’t understand what some people say…

No Trinity = No teamwork, there is no teamwork in GW2…. Well that is a false statement.

What makes a team in PvP better than another team? Is it pre luck or is it teamwork? …It is teamwork no? But if some say that there is no teamwork in GW2… Oh yea thats PvP.

It still implies in PvE. The dungeons whe have at the moment are too easy, we have learned how to beat them at the best way, some even stack at gliched places and so on. But let’s take Teq for example, what if a team of pleyers decided to troll and controll the turrets and don’t shoot at Teq, what would hapen then? Can you as a single player like so many says ‘In GW2 it’s only you, a solo player’ defeat Teq without a team shooting Teq with the turrets? Now let’s talk about Clockheart, the perpose of this fight is to have the holograms close to it and then blast them before he charges his attack. I dunno how people fight this guy now but maby just DPS it before that happens or something. But its mechanics is that you have to blast holograms near him so his super attack needs to be recharged, and if players are far away from it, it will start to throw cogs at the one far away and if a player is downed it usually throws cogs at that one to.

To beat Clockheart we would need teamwork, if someone is downed it is good to have a necro who can teleport downed players to them or a warrior prepared with a banner or other stuff, someone needs to pull iether clockheart or Holograms to the holograms can be blasted near clockheart and so on.

In short, there is teamwork in GW2 but just becouse people have learned how to Zerk through most of the content in easiest way possible is another problem and that is becouse the content is to easy. But as we have seen in HoT beta is that the content isn’t very Zerker friendly at the moment.

I dont get where Anet got the idea that they strongly want to make a game without the trinity when they already have one. Its called Guild Wars, a game that had MANY roles and did not fall into a hard trinity. The GW2 meta is nothing but do damage and give damage dealers boons to do more damage.

Nuzt.7894:

The way thing currently work with everyone in zerk and stacking in a corner is far more boring than any trinity. I find it’s also so much easier and requires pretty much no skill at all.

Stacking in corners is almost never better than not stacking in corners. FGS got nerfed ages ago…

ANet only want to create a world and some situations where you need more than only a full berserker team and full damage builds to go through a map or a raid.
That’s why the only equip you need to use in PvE is Berserker. Sometimes Rabid with the OP burn of Elementalist that can stack 20 burn with a insane amount of might all by themself.

Make enemies more dangerous will force you to chose also a more defensive build or to have a “bunker” in your team, so if you fall there’s someone that can still stand to ress you.

Actually the meta is berserker + might. I you’re not the best dps of the world or don’t give might you’re totally useless.
A good boring meta…

Anet will never resort to full trinity. It will be like shooting themselves on the feet.
The new raid will consist of doing bunch of chores+kill trashes all the way to boss room, followed by doing bunch of chores then dps boss. You’ve already seen it @ Teq, 3xWurm, Fractals and Claw of Jormag. Put a little seasoning of attunement alike within the instance to slow down progress (my apology … ehem … masteries). The damage dished out by the mobs will be unforgiving. Challenging™.
Give it a month or perhaps within weeks, depending on masteries difficulty, players will have the optimum setup to clear it.
Then you’ll start seeing the following when ppl setting up grp.
-No xxx classes/professions (>_> necro, ranger n thief are usually the victims here)
-Zerk/Sinister only
-Selling spot for xxx gold
Traditional GW2 lfg ads.

Silv.9207:

Actually the meta is berserker + might. I you’re not the best dps of the world or don’t give might you’re totally useless.
A good boring meta…

You don’t understand a kitten about the meta.

Yeah, because with trinity mmos, I never hated this part at ALL…

“3 DPS lf 1 healer, 1 tank”

3 hours later…

“3 DPS lf 1 healer, 1 tank”

The other two in my group turn to me and beg me to please play my healer or tank so we can just GO already.

And the whole WoW lfg finder only sort of fixed things, because 3 dps will still wait around for healers and tanks to join, when a healer or tank a group pops immediately (especially if you’re a healer).

Yeah, that was fun never playing dps because nobody wants to be a healer or tank when the dps charge forward then blame you for not taunting enough or not healing enough.

Forget that crap. I’m happy that people have to not be dain bramaged and know how to dodge, how to take care of themselves, how to stack boons and strip conditions and play as a team. And if you don’t think that’s what happens in pve and wvw and even pvp, then I hope you get the opportunity to play with more experienced individuals in the future.

Experienced members of GW2, take a newbie under your wing, bring the community up. This trinity stuff pops up most on the forums from people who don’t understand how the game is supposed to function and have only played trinity mmos and rpgs. Lets change some hearts and minds when you see it in game.

Kordash.2197:

Silv.9207:

Actually the meta is berserker + might. I you’re not the best dps of the world or don’t give might you’re totally useless.
A good boring meta…

You don’t understand a kitten about the meta.

And this is the main problem with threads about the zerker meta or trinity, players who have no idea on how to play the game come and post their non-sense and things escalate from there.

I believe they said countless time that GW2 ain’t mean to not have any trinity, just that there isn’t any profession designed to have a dedicated rôle.

Simply put, through trait and gear, GW2 allow you to play whatever trinity role you wanna play. The only difference is that there aren’t any tank or healer which are replaced by controle and support.

@OP

ANet has absolutely never ever said they don’t want trinity or that there won’ be.

They said there won’t be Holy Trinity (Tank, DPS, Healer) but that they want it more broad-termed Trinity (Control, Damage, Support).

They buffed support specs because it has been all about dmg thus far so only Damage part with little Control & Support.

All I can say is that I can’t wait for HoT to release so I can relish in the tears of the trinity lovers once again

Well… Well…. ,the _Holy_Trinity…?

I’m fine with the present setup; When utilized well it performs to a degree where all players say faceroll… but I have 75% of my Pick-Up-Groups (PUG’s) not using it due to the fact they can out-DPS the content… They will kill stuff (enemies/ objects) quicker then enemies/objects will kill them. This is a problem, cause to make this game balanced there should be a balance point with mid level gear where pwople can stay alive due to speccing and a “top -layer” where people will stay alive due to making no mistakes. these to have merged. leaving any person knowing and able to press 1, arrow keys and V, also able to do most, if not any content.

We have Control (problem is the immunity of MANY bosses, practical use only on elites,verterans and normal enemies, while champions and legendaries are immune after 1 hit, and need real careful attention by 1 dedicated player to use this to some degree of effect.)
As it is now playing CC usefully is only possible in a group not using it at all or in organized content, my favcorite application: hammer(stun) on the 3 igniters at the start of COF 2, and the other one halfway. And of course deep freeze (Icebow skill 5)
(better and important applications are immobilizing the grawl shamans in the grawl fractal and immobilizing assasins in COf 2 again when I find a very green pug group in CoF 2)

- Knockback
- Stun
- Daze
- Fear
- Immobilize
- Chill
- Cripple
- Blinds

We have support (Always utilized all classes bring some)
Well though it will make all runs faceroll, most people do not learn how to use support due to DPS rotations killing 90% of the game beteer and more efficient then trying to utilize other stuff. if you have people actually making use of this it is mostly perma fury from ele’s, might from PS warriors might and empower allies buff from warriors and stealth from thieves, and if ytouu are lucky reflects from guard and mesmers and quickness from guards and mesmers…… The end.

- Weakness
- Retaliation
- Reflects
- Stealth/Invisibility
- Protection
- Cleansing
- Resilience
- Regeneration, Lifesteal & Healing
- Might & Fury
- Quickness
- Banners
- Direct trait buffs: empower allies/spotter/strength in numbers/ (ferocity on daredevil)

We have damage (Everybody has acced to either 1 or both of these)
- DPS
- DOT

So in effect GW2 has a Holy Duo , with the 3rd thing only having limited use, even with a breakbar CC is very limited, BUT it will be better compared to the present situation and give rise to the New Trinity, which will be a replacement for the holy trinity and the holy duo.

And for healing while giving support a zealot healing ele can give 1977 healing / second excluding all other skill then auto, soothing mist and regen. for the first 6 second of attunement. when coming from earth, it can provide 1-3 healing blasts (2200 points each) and 35+ seonds of regen before starting this continous 1977 hp/sec heals, when needed a spike from geyser and blast can be given any time for an instant 7.5k heal, dodging will add another decent heal if traited.

skarpak.8594:

Snip

…its not about the stats, its about the skills & traits. if skills & traits are enough and do not need to be powered up through stats, why run them?

Regardless of whether you are anti-healing or not, stats do influence your role.

maddoctor.2738:

Kordash.2197:

Silv.9207:

Actually the meta is berserker + might. I you’re not the best dps of the world or don’t give might you’re totally useless.
A good boring meta…

You don’t understand a kitten about the meta.

And this is the main problem with threads about the zerker meta or trinity, players who have no idea on how to play the game come and post their non-sense and things escalate from there.

Might and faceroll dpsing makes up a large part of PvE. I don’t view placing down a wall of reflection every now and then as focusing on the role of “support”. Someone who actually focuses entirely on the role of support would constantly protect, heal, and buff their allies, rather than dpsing 80% of the time and supporting 20% of the time.

Yelloweyedemon.2860:

Also, it’s not only about the trinity. It’s about challenging content. Think is that GW2 showed us the past 3 years that without a sign of trinity or at least more dedicated roles, there can not be any challenging content.

I (and I bet everyone else who supports the “trinity” idea) would not mind having really challenging content without trinity, but if they tried something like that my bet would be that it would result to the typical zerker zerg the instance and go to semi retired in 1 week because of boredom… You know.. typical GW2 stuff…

Content in this game is not easy for everyone. It’s easy for people who understand professions and fight mechanics. In fact, a lot of fights weren’t easy in their early days. What happened is that people have figured out how to optimize damage, using a particular blend of support (mostly DPS buffs), control (nerfing worst enemy skills), and active defense (avoiding worst enemy skills). We have evolved; the fights and the AI haven’t.

And that’s exactly the same thing that happens in every other game’s PvE: people learn the mechanics and can repeat fights easily. This is true in trinity games as well. Often what makes raids “challenging” is getting enough people to coordinate and with 5-person dungeons in GW2, that hasn’t been hard to do.

tl;dr the issue has never been trinity|not trinity. It’s that games don’t evolve as fast as the community does.

Azure.8670:

First off, anet has nothing against the trinity. What they have always said is they want every class to be able to play multiple roles. You can have dps tank and support, just each class can do it and differently. That’s how they set it up and how it’s always been

Thats not how its alwayd been. Thats PR talk.
a thief cant tank no matter how they spec. They cant provide good healing no matter what they do.
same with mesmers in terms of support.

The list goes on.

Knighthonor.4061:

Azure.8670:

First off, anet has nothing against the trinity. What they have always said is they want every class to be able to play multiple roles. You can have dps tank and support, just each class can do it and differently. That’s how they set it up and how it’s always been

Thats not how its alwayd been. Thats PR talk.
a thief cant tank no matter how they spec. They cant provide good healing no matter what they do.
same with mesmers in terms of support.

The list goes on.

Actually a thief could tank just fine with the right stat choices and an evade heavy build. This is compounded by the way gw2 works, instead of facetanking and soaking up damage you are suppose to avoid damage.

Random.4691:

Knighthonor.4061:

Azure.8670:

First off, anet has nothing against the trinity. What they have always said is they want every class to be able to play multiple roles. You can have dps tank and support, just each class can do it and differently. That’s how they set it up and how it’s always been

Thats not how its alwayd been. Thats PR talk.
a thief cant tank no matter how they spec. They cant provide good healing no matter what they do.
same with mesmers in terms of support.

The list goes on.

Actually a thief could tank just fine with the right stat choices and an evade heavy build. This is compounded by the way gw2 works, instead of facetanking and soaking up damage you are suppose to avoid damage.

Also they can blind-tank any number of non-champion enemies.

Knighthonor.4061:

Azure.8670:

First off, anet has nothing against the trinity. What they have always said is they want every class to be able to play multiple roles. You can have dps tank and support, just each class can do it and differently. That’s how they set it up and how it’s always been

Thats not how its alwayd been. Thats PR talk.
a thief cant tank no matter how they spec. They cant provide good healing no matter what they do.
same with mesmers in terms of support.

The list goes on.

Take a Pistol off-hand and Tank non-boss mobs by providing blind fields. In this way the Thief is actually one of the BEST tanks in the game
Use a double S/D set (with double energy sigils for overkill) and you can tank with a million evades.
As for healing, Shadow Refugee is an excellent ability to heal and save allies, actually it can save allies better than any actual heal skill in the game.
Blasting Water Fields with a Shortbow for extra healing for the entire party? Yes please!

Mesmers and Support… you haven’t heard of Time Wrap? Or blink + portal to get allies behind content.
Mesmers have nice Stealth too to support the party with stealth so they can bypass fights (very similar to a Thief)
Chronomancers get Alacrity which is another way to “support” the party.

What are you talking about?

maddoctor.2738:

Knighthonor.4061:

Azure.8670:

First off, anet has nothing against the trinity. What they have always said is they want every class to be able to play multiple roles. You can have dps tank and support, just each class can do it and differently. That’s how they set it up and how it’s always been

Thats not how its alwayd been. Thats PR talk.
a thief cant tank no matter how they spec. They cant provide good healing no matter what they do.
same with mesmers in terms of support.

The list goes on.

Take a Pistol off-hand and Tank non-boss mobs by providing blind fields. In this way the Thief is actually one of the BEST tanks in the game
Use a double S/D set (with double energy sigils for overkill) and you can tank with a million evades.
As for healing, Shadow Refugee is an excellent ability to heal and save allies, actually it can save allies better than any actual heal skill in the game.
Blasting Water Fields with a Shortbow for extra healing for the entire party? Yes please!

Mesmers and Support… you haven’t heard of Time Wrap? Or blink + portal to get allies behind content.
Mesmers have nice Stealth too to support the party with stealth so they can bypass fights (very similar to a Thief)
Chronomancers get Alacrity which is another way to “support” the party.

What are you talking about?

Indeed combo are support.

I’d like to add to the support of the mesmers some mantra and a lot of traits which either heal up to 5 allies, cleanse their condition, grant them boons or debuff the ennemie. (I’m including the debuff thing because Anet seem to think that it’s part to the support)

In fact mesmer is a beast for support.

Yelloweyedemon.2860:

Vayne.8563:

I’ll respond as I did on reddit:

If I never saw another game again with the trinity, it would be too soon. Just imagine how much fun Lord of the Rings would have been if all foes only attacked Boromir, while Gandalf stayed back and healed him and the hobbits, Aragorn, Legolas and Gimli all dealt damage in relative safety.
You may believe, truly believe, that the trinity makes for a good game. But it’s contrived to the point where it removes everything that makes role-playing games great.

I don’t usually reply on general discussion forums because I don’t have time reading through 500 pages, but your reply is so totally wrong. It clearly shows that you have not played any serious MMO in it’s heyday if you think that healing the tank is the only tactic needed.

Maybe you have the impression that MMOs were always like how WoW or LOTRO is today, where they made everything so facerolling easy, all you need is a tank to run through pull the whole instance and stand in a corner AoE everything down…

Trinity, or better, roles is what makes a role playing game great. In serious MMOs for lets say a 12 man raid, you needed 1 tank, 1 off tank, 1 healer for the group, 1 healer for just the tanks, 2 support classes (1 buffer 1 debuffer), 2 ranged dps and 4 melee dps. Everyone of course needs to know exactly what he’s doing or the whole group will wipe because of 1 person. This is what makes a game great. It gives you the actual satisfaction that you acomplished something, and not just facerolled another instance.

What we have at the moment on GW2 is not actual content. 99% of the instances are like: Skip 80% of the mobs, and the ones that can’t be skipped, you pull to a corner and AoE them down. It requires zero skill, zero effort and zero team co-ordination.

Atm GW2 is basically a game that requires no tactic or thinking, and all you have to do is just barely know the current meta. If you do know it, you can faceroll every single instance or encounter while being semi-afk playing with 1 hand. If you want this to continue because you’re too lazy actually playing a challenging game, that’s fine, but please don’t say trinity is what makes a role playing boring…

Yeah, pretty much. Although i guess the premise at the time was that if you wanted trinity and prestige from your peers/ played class, you would play wildstar.
Even lotro seriously dumbed down the skills available on all classes a good while ago, basically because it’s easier to program instances without worrying about a multitude of skill/trait buffs/hps/dps ect.

The more “A” you put into the action aspect of an mmo, the less flexible it will be

Trinity is ok and there are plenty of mmo’s that support it. Gw2 doesn’t and even a little side shift by anet to make support more viable is welcome but people need to die in WvW and when you run cleric guardian you are just creating dissonance.
you think you’re making that difference when really the meta is there for a reason.

Fashion Mage.3712:

Might and faceroll dpsing makes up a large part of PvE.

And yet the meta is not 5x ele.

The trinity is an outdated concept and I hope it never comes to gw2.

Go ahead and play any mmo outside of WoW and see how many hours you need to wait to do anything because there is no tank or healer and some of them only play them for the shorter queues and burn out quickly. Even in Wildstar (prior to the population imploding) where every class can either support or tank, you have shortages because the vast majority of players absolutely hate tanking or healing.

Really the only people I see arguing for the trinity are people who like healing and tanking (which are the vast minority) and being pandered to. They demand gold, equipment, everyone to play on their schedules, and to kick anyone they don’t like… simply because they are in demand from stupid game design.

Are gw2 dungeons a bit boring? Sure, but putting trinity in the game is a big mistake. Anet can make dungeons more interesting without using the trinity crutch.

I really don’t see anything challenging about tank and spank. And when you have mechanics in WoW that is more than tank and spank, that’s not really something that requires a trinity is it?

I like the part where after 3 years of fun, successful gaming without the trinity, the conclusion is that we NEED it. ><

The only reason to desire a trinity in this game is to make me leave it, which will please a good number of people.

runeblade.7514:

wayneericgouin.9371:

I’m not for or against the trinity, but I feel like people don’t consider how bad the “everyone can do everything” attitude really is. I always cringe when I read someone post about how bad the trinity is, yet rave about being mesmer #1,576 with whatever build they got off metabattle.com.

My warrior can’t remove boons. My mesmer can’t stack 25 might. My Ranger can’t send icebow. My Guardian can’t cripple. How come I can’t do everything in a game where everyone says everyone can do everything.

I’m referring to anets stance on the originally proposed idea that everyone can fill every role, which in my opinion causes the game to be somewhat homogenized with no clearly defined difference between professions in pve. I do realize that it has to do with the way pve is designed. Sidenote: why is everyone against a trinity anyway? I’ve been playing mmo’s since EQ pc launch and the trinity was my favorite part of the genre.

Coldtart.4785:

Fashion Mage.3712:

Might and faceroll dpsing makes up a large part of PvE.

And yet the meta is not 5x ele.

Some say that it doesn’t happen because it would break the fabric of reality.

wayneericgouin.9371:

I’m referring to anets stance on the originally proposed idea that everyone can fill every role, which in my opinion causes the game to be somewhat homogenized with no clearly defined difference between professions in pve. I do realize that it has to do with the way pve is designed. Sidenote: why is everyone against a trinity anyway? I’ve been playing mmo’s since EQ pc launch and the trinity was my favorite part of the genre.

All of the problems I just explained right above you.

If you have been playing mmo since Everquest you should know first hand the difficulties getting a tank and healer. Unless you play one yourself that is.

The only mmo that doesn’t have this issue is WoW due to the sheer number of players they have, and even then I heard people complain about top guilds poaching tanks and healers and having no one to replace them with because the replacements were several equipment tiers behind.

I really don’t see the appeal behind trinity unless you are one of the people playing tank or healer and love the special treatment you get over everyone else. Tank and spank is not any better than what we have now. And mechanics that extend beyond tank and spank is not something that only trinity systems can have.