Guild Wars 2

I have but 1 criticism of the introduction of the elite specializations. I do not like the fact that the new weapons and utilities are chained to whether or not you’re using the elite specialization or not. You could still use the elite specialization as the vehicle to unlock these things, just don’t make using the elite spec a prerequisite to using the weapons and utilities. The elite specialization lines change enough on their own to still feel unique gameplay wise.

I can understand the reasoning; this creates an easier system to balance in the future when more elite specializations are introduced and more weapons and utilities get thrown on the pile. That’s all well and good, but this will end up feeling like a very large limitation to the common player when they aren’t allowed to use weapon A and utility skill B with Elite Spec C.

It’s a preemptive strike against future balance issues that don’t exist as of right now at the potential cost of build diversity and creativity in the future. Anyone else think this shouldn’t be the case?

Malthurius.6870:

I have but 1 criticism of the introduction of the elite specializations. I do not like the fact that the new weapons and utilities are chained to whether or not you’re using the elite specialization or not. You could still use the elite specialization as the vehicle to unlock these things, just don’t make using the elite spec a prerequisite to using the weapons and utilities. The elite specialization lines change enough on their own to still feel unique gameplay wise.

I can understand the reasoning; this creates an easier system to balance in the future when more elite specializations are introduced and more weapons and utilities get thrown on the pile. That’s all well and good, but this will end up feeling like a very large limitation to the common player when they aren’t allowed to use weapon A and utility skill B with Elite Spec C.

It’s a preemptive strike against future balance issues that don’t exist as of right now at the potential cost of build diversity and creativity in the future. Anyone else think this shouldn’t be the case?

So you rather have them scrap the system then when they run into the wall they know is there and cant balance it we dont get any more elite specializations.
Yea that sound way better mate.

After several expansions you’ll have all classes able to weild a very large number of weapons that all need to be generalised.

Eg. Chronomancer’s Shield phantasm procs Alacrity, if you gave this to all Mesmers you would reduce the USP of Chronomancer OR you remove the Alacrity from Shield and keep things very general and struggle to keep finding unique weapons over time.

They are setting up the system for many updates and the future of the game and without the exclusivity of specs and weapons you’ll end up with lots of overlap and less unique weapons tailored to the spec they come with.

To be honest, things are actually the other way around, many players are taking the new Elite Spec, but not the new Weapon or Utilities. Many Thieves are looking forward to taking Daredevil without equipping a Staff and Warriors are going Berserker without Torch.

All the Elite Specs actually have very useful Minor traits(except Dragonhunter) and it would be worth it to replace a former core traitline with them. The Major traits too are close to(sometimes better than) the Major traits from core traitlines in terms of effectiveness.

Which is why you wont see too many complaints about things being the way they are, because it seems natural for many people to just take the new Elite spec and replace their least useful traitline.

Linken.6345:

So you rather have them scrap the system then when they run into the wall they know is there and cant balance it we dont get any more elite specializations.
Yea that sound way better mate.

Where did I say scrap the system? Removing a limitation isn’t scraping the elite specialization system.

As the elite specializations are designed now, they already support the utilities and weapon skills they grant; players will naturally gravitate towards using those utilities and weapons with said elite spec. The limitation of 1 elite spec line per build will naturally prevent someone from combining 2 elite specs already, and I doubt there would be anything completely broken from using a utility skill or weapon from 1 elite spec on another if you can’t take any traits supporting those choices anyway.

Malthurius.6870:

Linken.6345:

So you rather have them scrap the system then when they run into the wall they know is there and cant balance it we dont get any more elite specializations.
Yea that sound way better mate.

Where did I say scrap the system? Removing a limitation isn’t scraping the elite specialization system.

As the elite specializations are designed now, they already support the utilities and weapon skills they grant; players will naturally gravitate towards using those utilities and weapons with said elite spec. The limitation of 1 elite spec line per build will naturally prevent someone from combining 2 elite specs already, and I doubt there would be anything completely broken from using a utility skill or weapon from 1 elite spec on another if you can’t take any traits supporting those choices anyway.

Thats kinda the point though, we want Elite specs to be significant and powerful but if they have to worry about them all being balanced with an ever growing array of weapons and utilities it will be very difficult. Not to mention taking the Elite spec loses its worth as a choice if you’re accessing a lot of its stuff without it.

Balance and significance of traiting for Elite specs are important cocepts that are not maintained if they go down your path.

Malthurius.6870:

I have but 1 criticism of the introduction of the elite specializations. I do not like the fact that the new weapons and utilities are chained to whether or not you’re using the elite specialization or not. You could still use the elite specialization as the vehicle to unlock these things, just don’t make using the elite spec a prerequisite to using the weapons and utilities. The elite specialization lines change enough on their own to still feel unique gameplay wise.

I can understand the reasoning; this creates an easier system to balance in the future when more elite specializations are introduced and more weapons and utilities get thrown on the pile. That’s all well and good, but this will end up feeling like a very large limitation to the common player when they aren’t allowed to use weapon A and utility skill B with Elite Spec C.

It’s a preemptive strike against future balance issues that don’t exist as of right now at the potential cost of build diversity and creativity in the future. Anyone else think this shouldn’t be the case?

Oh, you should have been there when Anet was running the two CDIs this structure grew out of .

The essential framework we have today — swapping out a trait line — was basically my best attempt at minimizing the damage sub-classes would do. …And was offered up only as a “trying to see it from the other side’s perspective” solution after arguing viciously that sub-classes shouldn’t exist at all and all of these weapons and utilities should be blended into the core profession so people could mix and match as they please.

If they have a virtue, it’s that they do allow ANet to keep reusing the same weapons to deliver new skills without ever having to add new weapon types/models to the game. An espec can overwrite a core weapon or offer the same weapon as another especs for the same profession without creating a conflict.

Time permitting, go back and read the last 5 pages of the vertical progression CDI, and about pages 39-48 of the horizontal progression CDI. It’s illuminating.

The idea of different skills for the same weapon for future elite specs is an interesting prospect that hadn’t crossed my mind. I’d be all for that if that’s indeed in the cards.

The balance argument is a good point, but I don’t believe it to be a point that can stand on it’s own. The 1 elite spec per build format already prevents future elite specs from compounding on each other since a lot of the strength of the spec is based on how it synergizes with either the weapon skills, utilities, or profession mechanic itself; so that already can’t be mixed and would prevent them from being overpowered if used outside of the elite specs. In this respect, they would only have to be sure that they were not overpowered outside of their elite specs; if they’re underpowered when used outside of the elite spec, then so be it; this wouldn’t damage the spec when some of it’s parts are used together.

Elite specs still being impactful if they only grant what’s in their trait lines is a debatable point, but I can understand it. Having the skills attached to the spec does make them feel a lot more important; but is that feeling of importance worth the limitation?

Considering the 99% mass extinction of builds that just took place with the trait line/trait revamp, be very clear: ArenaNet wants players to stop surprising them with overperforming combinations a LOT more than they want the game to have rich diversity. At this point having only a modest number of strong builds emerging from a new Espec is a feature not a bug to the people charged with managing class balance.

Malthurius.6870:

The idea of different skills for the same weapon for future elite specs is an interesting prospect that hadn’t crossed my mind. I’d be all for that if that’s indeed in the cards.

The balance argument is a good point, but I don’t believe it to be a point that can stand on it’s own. The 1 elite spec per build format already prevents future elite specs from compounding on each other since a lot of the strength of the spec is based on how it synergizes with either the weapon skills, utilities, or profession mechanic itself; so that already can’t be mixed and would prevent them from being overpowered if used outside of the elite specs. In this respect, they would only have to be sure that they were not overpowered outside of their elite specs; if they’re underpowered when used outside of the elite spec, then so be it; this wouldn’t damage the spec when some of it’s parts are used together.

Elite specs still being impactful if they only grant what’s in their trait lines is a debatable point, but I can understand it. Having the skills attached to the spec does make them feel a lot more important; but is that feeling of importance worth the limitation?

Balance is largely maintained by limitation, remember we need to give space for future inovation and imagination.

Say the next Mesmer Elite spec wants to involve lots of procs on interupts, lots of Mesmer weapon skills involve interupts capped at 5 but you then see Shield and it double interupts with no limit. This would provide a nightmare to balance or they just decide to drop the theme they wanted.

Similarly Mesmers used to have a ‘Gain Retal on Block’ trait, now that was pretty weak because Mesmers don’t have access to much Block but imagine they wanted to put something similar into a new Elite spec Mesmers now can have 6sec of continuous Block with Shield again forcing them to drop the idea or rework Shield.

This constant worrying about a unique weapon for the future ties the devs hands.

We atm have such a fun and exciting and unique weapon in Shield, if they had to worry about future interactions with Elite specs it would have to be weakened and standardised to accomodate. This would not be good imo.

Let’s put this all into prospective.
GW2 came from GW which have something like 1300+ skills to balance, and secondary professions don’t help. It has 8 skill slot to fill with whatever you want, no weapon skills, no mandatory heal, etc.
That was a balance nightmare for devs.

Than came GW2, with devs obviously determined not to repeat the same errors.
This is why we have weapons skills in GW2 or the mandatory elite slot, for example.
This greatly reduce the chances of unexpected combinations and give the devs an easier time balancing the game.
Limiting new weapons and utilities to only being used with the respective specialization equipped is another mechanism that helps keeping balance easier.

What you’re asking for, on the other end, is basically to keep increasing the number of skills available with every new specialization, which will lead to the same problems they had with the first GW.
They based GW2 on not being like that (with other things, of course), so that’s why what you’re asking for is simply impraticable.

Nike.2631:

Considering the 99% mass extinction of builds that just took place with the trait line/trait revamp, be very clear: ArenaNet wants players to stop surprising them with overperforming combinations a LOT more than they want the game to have rich diversity. At this point having only a modest number of strong builds emerging from a new Espec is a feature not a bug to the people charged with managing class balance.

I would say that they cut down the number of possible builds but increased the number of viable and competitive builds. I play the game modes pretty evenly, and I see a much greater number of builds being run.

I’m pretty sure this has a lot to do with traits being much more in sync with skills in general, giving rise to synergy that didn’t exist before.

I actually really like the idea of this limitation allowing for future elite specs to change pre-existing weapon skill sets into different ones to suit a different role the more I think about it. That idea alone is enough for me to concede; in addition to the obvious balance issues that I said I was aware of in the OP.

Perhaps there could be a middle ground, where they add new weapons to the class core without an elite spec; and if the elite specs can change pre-existing weapon skills, then it wouldn’t step on the elite spec’s toes.

Elite specs are balanced around exclusive skills and weapons, so yeah they are to remain elite spec-locked.