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So dungeon rewards... why?
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Fractals are “dungeons” for all intent and purposes, but better designed and offer more variety to players in the long run.
Strongly disagree with this. Fractal maps are often tiny, almost claustrophobic. Dungeons are nice big maps, and as a result dungeons feel different. You can really go around exploring in dungeons, and I think more people actually want to because dungeons actually make an attempt to tie into the rest of the gw2 world. Consider arah, we see huge structures that go all the way from the surrounding maps coming into arah. We understand why there are undead. We are helping researchers explore the ancient civilizations. The entire dungeon fits into the world. Compare that to cliffside or Jade maw.
I also tend to think that dungeons have more room for creativity. For example, I remember a record video where a mesmer would portal the other 4 party members from boss to boss. The mesmer never fought, just running while the others fought, and the other 4 never ran, just constantly fighting while the mesmer ran. Pretty smart. I don’t see stuff like that in fractals.
You can still run your traditional dungeons because they are not deleting them.
Fractals are getting a revamp so we will have to see what they look and “feel” like. Also, the better technology mumbo jumbo the devs are using will allow them to do more with fractals than with dungeons, so things will be better in the long run for players.
Your Mesmer example is precisely what the devs want to avoid. What you consider “smart” gameplay is basically exploiting unintended loopholes. Skip to boss then kill and collect over and over is not healthy for the game.
I never said you can’t run dungeons any more, I said I strongly disagree with your statement that "Fractals are “dungeons” for all intent and purposes", and I gave you examples of why.
Exploiting? How could that be exploiting, the devs put stealth, portals, etc in the game. What other purpose would they serve? That doesn’t make any sense. It is just an alternative method to approaching the dungeons.
Dungeons aren’t going anywhere.
There’s still a Dungeon Achievement worth 200 AP & a very grindy Dungeoneer Achievement to do.
Dungeon Tokens are needed for all existing Legendary weapons as well as some very attractive, very expensive, non legendary weapons. The Halloween weapons all require dungeon tokens to craft for example.
And if the nerf isn’t that bad, it will not matter. Dungeon rewards were actually worse in the past when players primarily grinded dungeons for gold.
Let’s face it: the big XP and karma rewards for dungeons had to disappear. The dungeon completion pop up is still happening, and the gold numbers on that pop up are being tweaked.
We knew for a long time that the numbers on some paths were too high, so this move is long overdue. I simply hope that the numbers on the under-run paths like Aetherpath, or SE part 3 aren’t nerfed down too badly.
Oh I think you mean SE part 2 since 1 and 3 are run regularly
Honestly, Anet doesn’t have to change the rewards. All they have to do is implement character model collision and it will break the stacking meta. Once the stacking meta is broken, dungeons will take an hour plus to complete instead of the fifteen minutes they take now.
I replied to your thread in the dungeons forum, but I will reply to it here too. Are you aware that stacking doesn’t raise group dps?
Yes, it just concentrates the entire focus of the action onto a single point. So all boons, buffs, conditions, and damage is all in one single spot.
Total damage of course is exactly the same, but the effect of all that damage hitting simultaneously is a lot different than that same damage spread over a greater area.
Say for instance there are 5 elite mobs with 50k hp each. If players didnt stack, those mobs would have to be individually taken down. Which would mean players would have to output 250k damage. However with stacking, all the mobs enter one spot, so the players can kill all 5 with only 50k damage.
There is a huge difference..
Someone else responded saying people don’t stack anymore, but run CoE or CoF Caudecus P1 P2 in a pug. You’ll find stacking is still the norm.
That might be because it’s the easiest way to herd cats.
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RIP City of Heroes
RIP City of Heroes
seriously they nerf the pathetic 1g per dungen route? fractals are extreamly boring and not rewarding after you did them like +200 times.
given the existence of reflects, monster aoes are not strong enough to discourage stacking, even on more interesting enemy groups like aetherblades
(edited by Shoe.5821)
seriously they nerf the pathetic 1g per dungen route? fractals are extreamly boring and not rewarding after you did them like +200 times.
Versus each dungeon path 200+ times?
We are heroes. This is what we do!
RIP City of Heroes
RIP City of Heroes
I think now that the base game is free to play, Anet is making farming/making gold more difficult for free players. This will require them to purchase boosts at the gem store. This will generate revenue for the company. People who paid for HoT will have comparatively higher treasure rewards.
The economy restructuring is obviously more for corporate reasons than in-game balancing. I don’t mind Anet making money, I’ve purchased every game they’ve made since GW1 beta. But honestly, people who paid full price for GW2 at launch and HoT should get better treatment than free players.
How could that be exploiting, the devs put stealth, portals, etc in the game. What other purpose would they serve? That doesn’t make any sense
PVP. WVW. Breaking aggro.
It’s exploiting because the really fast clearspeeds are unintended by the design, so the rate at which people rack up pure liquid gold is unintended by the design. This is actually a problem for everyone because it leads to inflation.
Honestly, Anet doesn’t have to change the rewards. All they have to do is implement character model collision and it will break the stacking meta. Once the stacking meta is broken, dungeons will take an hour plus to complete instead of the fifteen minutes they take now.
I replied to your thread in the dungeons forum, but I will reply to it here too. Are you aware that stacking doesn’t raise group dps?
Yes, it just concentrates the entire focus of the action onto a single point. So all boons, buffs, conditions, and damage is all in one single spot.
Total damage of course is exactly the same, but the effect of all that damage hitting simultaneously is a lot different than that same damage spread over a greater area.
Say for instance there are 5 elite mobs with 50k hp each. If players didn’t stack, those mobs would have to be individually taken down. Which would mean players would have to output 250k damage. However with stacking, all the mobs enter one spot, so the players can kill all 5 with only 50k damage.
There is a huge difference..
Someone else responded saying people don’t stack anymore, but run CoE or CoF Caudecus P1 P2 in a pug. You’ll find stacking is still the norm.
Players would just use pulls such as mesmer focus 4, gaurdian gs 5, ele earth shield, engi shield, etc to stack enemies up, and then circle around them. I think the smallest range buff is 300. That is tons of space. Players do not need to be stacked on one another to get this benefit, and in fact frequently in harder fights, they do not stack. For example most bosses in fractals.
Just consider what player collisions would do to the game. It is going to be impossible to reach banks, merchants, black lion, etc. You go to dodge out of an aoe, and someone stops you from dodging out? Not to mention the trolling aspects. You could form lines of people to prevent access to content. What if someone just afks in a doorway, not even intentionally trolling? World bosses would be so crowded you’d have to bring ranged weapons because it would be impossible to reach the boss.
Not to mention, your example is for TRASH mobs. Those things that we can perma blind, stun lock, etc. There is nothing interesting about trash because the majority of players can avoid 100% of their damage. They are completely just a time sink. The pve side of the game should not be balanced around trash mobs, but rather bosses.
The number one thing anet can do to improve pve, is to actually devote some resources to it, and actually make new content.
Skip to boss then kill and collect over and over is not healthy for the game.
Good to know that map switching in silver wastes (looking for vine wraith) will be removed…. or LFG for killing in Orr Boss events will be removed as well… Since that’s what Arena Net doesn’t want.
Skip to boss then kill and collect over and over is not healthy for the game.
Good to know that map switching in silver wastes (looking for vine wraith) will be removed…. or LFG for killing in Orr Boss events will be removed as well… Since that’s what Arena Net doesn’t want.
Except that SW only transfer wealth and acts as a supply for the overall market. SW is getting nerfed as a result of the reduction in salvaging output. SW makes money from selling items on the TP and it gets taxed.
Dungeon creates wealth and it doesn’t get taxed.
the least they could have done was given us 2 or 3 new fractals to do. so many things arenanet do are awesome. so many things are terrible. they really seem to not like permanent content. they wanna add stuff in and then take it away to never be seen again. some of this game’s best content is just gone forever.
dungeons are there but arent worth running which goes against what they were saying about making old content irrelevant once new content comes out. there is very little instanced group content in this game and now there is less of it that is rewarding and the stuff they are trying to push us toward doing wasn’t added to by giving us new stuff to play in it.
when’s the last time we got a new fractal? im so tired of getting excited for a new feature or holiday content or whatever and then having that excitement tempered by the fact they removed or replaced a reward. it happens too often in this game.
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Dungeons were confirmed to be in maintenance mode quite a while ago with fractals being their focus. Dungeons simply weren’t popular enough to warrant further development, which is why they were dropped early on.
That’s… interesting statement, seing as they were always more popular than fractals, and likely more popular than raids will be.
Not that fractals are getting any new development, the incoming changes seem more like a paint job to me.
It’s actually the opposite. Dungeons are getting nerfed because they are too popular. Anet doesn’t want the content they have abandoned because they couldn’t be bothered to fix bugs to be more popular than one they are now advertising as the endgame. That might bring up some inconvenient questions, after all.
Actions, not words.
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(edited by Astralporing.1957)
Skip to boss then kill and collect over and over is not healthy for the game.
Good to know that map switching in silver wastes (looking for vine wraith) will be removed…. or LFG for killing in Orr Boss events will be removed as well… Since that’s what Arena Net doesn’t want.
Except that SW only transfer wealth and acts as a supply for the overall market. SW is getting nerfed as a result of the reduction in salvaging output. SW makes money from selling items on the TP and it gets taxed.
Dungeon creates wealth and it doesn’t get taxed.
Except everyone who says this is missing cases.
What do you think happens when I acrue 250 Leather (well as of a month ago, prices changed currently), or minor sigils, and sell them to a vendor because the TP is at its lowest value? I actually am creating money out of nothing on any interaction where I sell to a vendor and got goods directly from drops.
Who is to say that leather is not one of the items that is going to be salvaged less?
Skip to boss then kill and collect over and over is not healthy for the game.
Good to know that map switching in silver wastes (looking for vine wraith) will be removed…. or LFG for killing in Orr Boss events will be removed as well… Since that’s what Arena Net doesn’t want.
Except that SW only transfer wealth and acts as a supply for the overall market. SW is getting nerfed as a result of the reduction in salvaging output. SW makes money from selling items on the TP and it gets taxed.
Dungeon creates wealth and it doesn’t get taxed.
Except everyone who says this is missing cases.
What do you think happens when I acrue 250 Leather (well as of a month ago, prices changed currently), or minor sigils, and sell them to a vendor because the TP is at its lowest value? I actually am creating money out of nothing on any interaction where I sell to a vendor and got goods directly from drops.
you are right you are actually creating money out of thin air when you vendor stuff. However, you are not creating as much money compared to running multiple dungeons.
You have to be selling a lot of crap to be generating as much money as doing dungeons. So nobody is missing the point. We all get it. Dungeon no matter what you said still generates more money out of thin air than any other content.
Honestly, Anet doesn’t have to change the rewards. All they have to do is implement character model collision and it will break the stacking meta. Once the stacking meta is broken, dungeons will take an hour plus to complete instead of the fifteen minutes they take now.
I replied to your thread in the dungeons forum, but I will reply to it here too. Are you aware that stacking doesn’t raise group dps?
Yes, it just concentrates the entire focus of the action onto a single point. So all boons, buffs, conditions, and damage is all in one single spot.
Total damage of course is exactly the same, but the effect of all that damage hitting simultaneously is a lot different than that same damage spread over a greater area.
Say for instance there are 5 elite mobs with 50k hp each. If players didn’t stack, those mobs would have to be individually taken down. Which would mean players would have to output 250k damage. However with stacking, all the mobs enter one spot, so the players can kill all 5 with only 50k damage.
There is a huge difference..
Someone else responded saying people don’t stack anymore, but run CoE or CoF Caudecus P1 P2 in a pug. You’ll find stacking is still the norm.
Players would just use pulls such as mesmer focus 4, gaurdian gs 5, ele earth shield, engi shield, etc to stack enemies up, and then circle around them. I think the smallest range buff is 300. That is tons of space. Players do not need to be stacked on one another to get this benefit, and in fact frequently in harder fights, they do not stack. For example most bosses in fractals.
Just consider what player collisions would do to the game. It is going to be impossible to reach banks, merchants, black lion, etc. You go to dodge out of an aoe, and someone stops you from dodging out? Not to mention the trolling aspects. You could form lines of people to prevent access to content. What if someone just afks in a doorway, not even intentionally trolling? World bosses would be so crowded you’d have to bring ranged weapons because it would be impossible to reach the boss.
Not to mention, your example is for TRASH mobs. Those things that we can perma blind, stun lock, etc. There is nothing interesting about trash because the majority of players can avoid 100% of their damage. They are completely just a time sink. The pve side of the game should not be balanced around trash mobs, but rather bosses.
The number one thing anet can do to improve pve, is to actually devote some resources to it, and actually make new content.
Dungeons are 5 man instances. I didn’t ask for collision to be implemented in cities. Only in areas where stacking is used to to such an extent that the actual gameplay mechanics of GW2 are ignored.
As for stacking up monsters, their AI needs to be fixed so they won’t stack either. Playe to monster collision doesnt need to be impllemented, only player to player and monster to monster. Players should be able to phase thru monsters and vice versa to allow for maximum mobility and action.
Honestly, Anet doesn’t have to change the rewards. All they have to do is implement character model collision and it will break the stacking meta. Once the stacking meta is broken, dungeons will take an hour plus to complete instead of the fifteen minutes they take now.
I replied to your thread in the dungeons forum, but I will reply to it here too. Are you aware that stacking doesn’t raise group dps?
Yes, it just concentrates the entire focus of the action onto a single point. So all boons, buffs, conditions, and damage is all in one single spot.
Total damage of course is exactly the same, but the effect of all that damage hitting simultaneously is a lot different than that same damage spread over a greater area.
Say for instance there are 5 elite mobs with 50k hp each. If players didn’t stack, those mobs would have to be individually taken down. Which would mean players would have to output 250k damage. However with stacking, all the mobs enter one spot, so the players can kill all 5 with only 50k damage.
There is a huge difference..
Someone else responded saying people don’t stack anymore, but run CoE or CoF Caudecus P1 P2 in a pug. You’ll find stacking is still the norm.
Players would just use pulls such as mesmer focus 4, gaurdian gs 5, ele earth shield, engi shield, etc to stack enemies up, and then circle around them. I think the smallest range buff is 300. That is tons of space. Players do not need to be stacked on one another to get this benefit, and in fact frequently in harder fights, they do not stack. For example most bosses in fractals.
Just consider what player collisions would do to the game. It is going to be impossible to reach banks, merchants, black lion, etc. You go to dodge out of an aoe, and someone stops you from dodging out? Not to mention the trolling aspects. You could form lines of people to prevent access to content. What if someone just afks in a doorway, not even intentionally trolling? World bosses would be so crowded you’d have to bring ranged weapons because it would be impossible to reach the boss.
Not to mention, your example is for TRASH mobs. Those things that we can perma blind, stun lock, etc. There is nothing interesting about trash because the majority of players can avoid 100% of their damage. They are completely just a time sink. The pve side of the game should not be balanced around trash mobs, but rather bosses.
The number one thing anet can do to improve pve, is to actually devote some resources to it, and actually make new content.
Dungeons are 5 man instances. I didn’t ask for collision to be implemented in cities. Only in areas where stacking is used to to such an extent that the actual gameplay mechanics of GW2 are ignored.
As for stacking up monsters, their AI needs to be fixed so they won’t stack either. Playe to monster collision doesnt need to be impllemented, only player to player and monster to monster. Players should be able to phase thru monsters and vice versa to allow for maximum mobility and action.
That’s a loooot of work to fix a non existent problem in a content that was never really supported.
Dungeons are 5 man instances. I didn’t ask for collision to be implemented in cities. Only in areas where stacking is used to to such an extent that the actual gameplay mechanics of GW2 are ignored.
As for stacking up monsters, their AI needs to be fixed so they won’t stack either. Playe to monster collision doesnt need to be impllemented, only player to player and monster to monster. Players should be able to phase thru monsters and vice versa to allow for maximum mobility and action.
We still have the problem of players dodging and hitting one another. Melee attacks usually have a range of 130, even if enemies are not on top of one another, you can easily hit 3 (the maximum number of targets you can typically cleave). And again, this only applies to trash mobs, why do we even care about killing trash mobs?
Your experience of dungeons being easy isn’t because of some big secret trick like stacking. Dungeons are easy because everything has too little hp, especially bosses. Stacking is just a tactic that pugs still use because they still haven’t realized that fgs was nerfed a long time ago.
dodging grants 100% evasion. They’d phase through each other. Melee attack could attack 3 at once. Of course this would only happen if the player was playing well and smart, by positioning themselves and leading monsters in a certain way to occasionally get that kind of proc. I’m all for that tactic. However hitting 20 at once because they are standing inside of each other is not the same thing. Of course, one has to wonder, why are they “trash mobs”? It is because they are stupid and can be stacked and dispatched ten at a time by a stacked group of players.
If those mobs actually posed a challenge, they wouldn’t be trash mos at all, but actual worthy game enemies.
Increasing difficulty by increasing stat numbers is poor programming and design. Increase difficulty by implementing smarter behavior.
dodging grants 100% evasion. They’d phase through each other. Melee attack could attack 3 at once. Of course this would only happen if the player was playing well and smart, by positioning themselves and leading monsters in a certain way to occasionally get that kind of proc. I’m all for that tactic. However hitting 20 at once because they are standing inside of each other is not the same thing. Of course, one has to wonder, why are they “trash mobs”? It is because they are stupid and can be stacked and dispatched ten at a time by a stacked group of players.
If those mobs actually posed a challenge, they wouldn’t be trash mos at all, but actual worthy game enemies.
Increasing difficulty by increasing stat numbers is poor programming and design. Increase difficulty by implementing smarter behavior.
Cleave already hits only 3 at a time. Go try it. Only a few melee attacks hit more than 3 at once, for example warrior arching slice hits 5. You can stack 20 mobs if you want, but you are only hitting 3 per attack.
Trash mobs are trash mobs because we can trivially avoid 100% of their damage. Just spam blinds, or stuns.
Sometimes increasing difficulty by tuning stats is bad programming. But that is only true to an extent. It is incredibly naive to thing in such absolutes. Imagine if you could kill any boss in the game currently with a single auto attack, clearly that would be a situation where changing stats would be the right thing to do. A lot of the bosses in dungeons die before we see any type of mechanic.
Of course, one has to wonder, why are they “trash mobs”? It is because they are stupid and can be stacked and dispatched ten at a time by a stacked group of players.
If those mobs actually posed a challenge, they wouldn’t be trash mos at all, but actual worthy game enemies.
Trash mobs are trash mobs because we can trivially avoid 100% of their damage. Just spam blinds, or stuns.
Trash mobs are not called trash mobs for the reasons being offered. They are called trash mobs because they don’t (or very seldom) drop anything worthwhile. This is the metric which trumps all others in MMO instanced group play. This is why they are skipped in GW2.
In games that don’t allow one to skip them, the trash mobs that actually get players’ attention are the ones that need to be handled in a specific way because they actually offer a threat. This may involve stats (they hit harder) or mechanics (if they are allowed to X, character death can happen). They’re still trash, though.
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