Guild Wars 2

evilunderling.9265:

That’s a self-fulfilling prophecy. Guild Wars 2’s dungeons are currently dying specifically because of developer neglect. You can’t use the fact that they’re dying to justify continued neglect.

Or in other words, the question isn’t where dungeons are now, the question is where dungeons could be if they were getting proper attention.

It’s already been proven over and over again that dungeons and raids do still work for casual players. In fact, they can serve the needs of casual players better than open world content would — this follows from the fact that, aside from its associated rewards, there is no value that can be added to a piece of PvE content that will survive contact with a zerg.

And why do you think they pulled resources from it in the first place?
There must be a reason for it after all. You can’t really claim that the reason loads of people didn’t play dungeons six months after release was due to them being “neglected”.

lordkrall.7241:

evilunderling.9265:

That’s a self-fulfilling prophecy. Guild Wars 2’s dungeons are currently dying specifically because of developer neglect. You can’t use the fact that they’re dying to justify continued neglect.

Or in other words, the question isn’t where dungeons are now, the question is where dungeons could be if they were getting proper attention.

It’s already been proven over and over again that dungeons and raids do still work for casual players. In fact, they can serve the needs of casual players better than open world content would — this follows from the fact that, aside from its associated rewards, there is no value that can be added to a piece of PvE content that will survive contact with a zerg.

And why do you think they pulled resources from it in the first place?
There must be a reason for it after all. You can’t really claim that the reason loads of people didn’t play dungeons six months after release was due to them being “neglected”.

excuse me what?
whare’s the data for dungeon exodus after 6 months?

if there wasn’t why did they start to ‘neglect’ dungeons?

Lets be honest they werent really doing much of anything at the 6 month mark…. All areas of the game had a drop in population. Because the entire population had a drop.

Windsagio.1340:

if there wasn’t why did they start to ‘neglect’ dungeons?

I dont know. You dont know. A red post could answer but that’s to hard for their PR to say up front why they neglect a part of their community.

Many.8419:

Hyper Cutter.9376:

zaw.6741:

and you know: just because most of current dungeons/paths are easy and bit boring (most 80- ones, jade maw), doesnt mean they couldnt make new ones with more complex mechanics, more challenging.

They literally did that, Aetherpath exists and no one touches it with a ten foot pole.

because rewards are abyssmal

i have done aetherpath once i liked what i got out of it mainly the mini and its a different experience that i won’t go and do everyday but certainly willing to help a guild mate out with it

Many.8419:

Windsagio.1340:

if there wasn’t why did they start to ‘neglect’ dungeons?

I dont know. You dont know. A red post could answer but that’s to hard for their PR to say up front why they neglect a part of their community.

So what we do is we try to get the best educated guess we can.

tfcgeneralkmk.9508:

Many.8419:

Hyper Cutter.9376:

zaw.6741:

and you know: just because most of current dungeons/paths are easy and bit boring (most 80- ones, jade maw), doesnt mean they couldnt make new ones with more complex mechanics, more challenging.

They literally did that, Aetherpath exists and no one touches it with a ten foot pole.

because rewards are abyssmal

i have done aetherpath once i liked what i got out of it mainly the mini and its a different experience that i won’t go and do everyday but certainly willing to help a guild mate out with it

Every time I see the rewards argument, whether to aether or to fractals, I kind of eyeroll.

It seems to say “We want new content! But if it’s not the optimal GP/hour then we won’t do it anyways!”

Windsagio.1340:

tfcgeneralkmk.9508:

Many.8419:

Hyper Cutter.9376:

zaw.6741:

and you know: just because most of current dungeons/paths are easy and bit boring (most 80- ones, jade maw), doesnt mean they couldnt make new ones with more complex mechanics, more challenging.

They literally did that, Aetherpath exists and no one touches it with a ten foot pole.

because rewards are abyssmal

i have done aetherpath once i liked what i got out of it mainly the mini and its a different experience that i won’t go and do everyday but certainly willing to help a guild mate out with it

Every time I see the rewards argument, whether to aether or to fractals, I kind of eyeroll.

It seems to say “We want new content! But if it’s not the optimal GP/hour then we won’t do it anyways!”

content should be rewarding, ppl dont play silverwastes for views or music but for rewards, this is a game, you should feel rewarded

Rewards are the main driving force in all parts of PvE. This is a cosmetic game. Content can be be popular by design alone. But it wont hold true replayability if rewards are poor. And its perfectly reasonable to be rewarded appropriately for whatever content you choose to do. Anet have always said play the game how you want and get rewarded. But when the rewards arent correctly balanced players feel forced to farm certain content so they can get their cosmetic items. Its an important issue and mocking this concept is ridiculous.

Windsagio.1340:

Many.8419:

Windsagio.1340:

if there wasn’t why did they start to ‘neglect’ dungeons?

I dont know. You dont know. A red post could answer but that’s to hard for their PR to say up front why they neglect a part of their community.

So what we do is we try to get the best educated guess we can.

My educated guess is – after destroying dungeon team and forcing Hrouda to leave they have noone competent with knowledge how to deal with dungeons. Their Living Story dream and china release kept game frozen for 2 years. My second educated guess is that aetherblade was an experiment for participation check. The problem is the data they got is broken because aetherblade rewards are abyssmal when compared to effort and time you need to complete them. This is why ppl avoid this path. So instead of adjusting this path to match time/effort cost, they assumed it is not worth to create new dungeons. Or they have no skill because Hrouda isnt there anymore.

You can’t make very good guesses if you’re working backwards from your conclusion.

Many.8419:

Windsagio.1340:

Many.8419:

Windsagio.1340:

if there wasn’t why did they start to ‘neglect’ dungeons?

I dont know. You dont know. A red post could answer but that’s to hard for their PR to say up front why they neglect a part of their community.

So what we do is we try to get the best educated guess we can.

My educated guess is – after destroying dungeon team and forcing Hrouda to leave they have noone competent with knowledge how to deal with dungeons. Their Living Story dream and china release kept game frozen for 2 years. My second educated guess is that aetherblade was an experiment for participation check. The problem is the data they got is broken because aetherblade rewards are abyssmal when compared to effort and time you need to complete them. This is why ppl avoid this path. So instead of adjusting this path to match time/effort cost, they assumed it is not worth to create new dungeons. Or they have no skill because Hrouda isnt there anymore.

I wouldnt be as bleak about it as that, but theres more proof to back up this than ‘A.net has secret numbers that irrefutably prove that most people dont want dungeons’

Windsagio.1340:

You can’t make very good guesses if you’re working backwards from your conclusion.

its exactly what you do mr educated

lordkrall.7241:

And why do you think they pulled resources from it in the first place?
There must be a reason for it after all. You can’t really claim that the reason loads of people didn’t play dungeons six months after release was due to them being “neglected”.

I just posted an argument to the effect that open world content cannot fulfil the PvE needs of any GW2 player as well as instanced content can. It follows from this that the reasons behind instances being neglected cannot have been good.

Windsagio.1340:

Every time I see the rewards argument, whether to aether or to fractals, I kind of eyeroll.

It seems to say “We want new content! But if it’s not the optimal GP/hour then we won’t do it anyways!”

Ppl play the content they like the most, but having a nice Gold per hour is a nice addition because ppl also value having gold to get skins, gear and useful items. A good game should have both quality content AND a good reward balance. It doesn’t mean that it the game will reach the perfect balance, but they should all try to.

spoj.9672:

Rewards are the main driving force in all parts of PvE. This is a cosmetic game. Content can be be popular by design alone. But it wont hold true replayability if rewards are poor. And its perfectly reasonable to be rewarded appropriately for whatever content you choose to do. Anet have always said play the game how you want and get rewarded. But when the rewards arent correctly balanced players feel forced to farm certain content so they can get their cosmetic items. Its an important issue and mocking this concept is ridiculous.

It is, but there’s a pretty consistent feel that as it stands dungeon-running is reward-motivated out of scale, and it’s warping the whole experience.

It’s left us in a situation where people demand new content but won’t play new content because the old content (being quick and boring) is so very much more rewarding.

Somebody I respect up above (or maybe in the other thread that got locked) said something like ‘dungeons are nice for me when I don’t want to commit probably 30-50 minutes to a fractal and want to do a quick something’. (paraphrasing slightly, but that’s the gist). New dungeons won’t, especially at first, be like that. They’d be at least 20 minutes (probably more) even for fast players. From seeing many of these discussions over the last few months, there’s not much sign people will adopt them vs the quick bite-sized tidbits they have now.

It ends up being a bit of a catch-22.

Edit@Thaddeus

Part of the problem there is that the time/effort/reward on most of the old dungeons is pretty far out of whack. It sets up an impossible expectation.

Many.8419:

Windsagio.1340:

You can’t make very good guesses if you’re working backwards from your conclusion.

its exactly what you do mr educated

Except no :p

I always have to repeat this, I’d love new dungeons, I just have come to the conclusion that they probably won’t happen, and that anet has good, or at least understandable reasons for not doing them.

People come into these threads with a “I like dungeons I want more dungeons so dungeons must be popular and a good idea for arenanet to do.”.

Windsagio.1340:

spoj.9672:

Rewards are the main driving force in all parts of PvE. This is a cosmetic game. Content can be be popular by design alone. But it wont hold true replayability if rewards are poor. And its perfectly reasonable to be rewarded appropriately for whatever content you choose to do. Anet have always said play the game how you want and get rewarded. But when the rewards arent correctly balanced players feel forced to farm certain content so they can get their cosmetic items. Its an important issue and mocking this concept is ridiculous.

It is, but there’s a pretty consistent feel that as it stands dungeon-running is reward-motivated out of scale, and it’s warping the whole experience.

It’s left us in a situation where people demand new content but won’t play new content because the old content (being quick and boring) is so very much more rewarding.

Somebody I respect up above (or maybe in the other thread that got locked) said something like ‘dungeons are nice for me when I don’t want to commit probably 30-50 minutes to a fractal and want to do a quick something’. (paraphrasing slightly, but that’s the gist). New dungeons won’t, especially at first, be like that. They’d be at least 20 minutes (probably more) even for fast players. From seeing many of these discussions over the last few months, there’s not much sign people will adopt them vs the quick bite-sized tidbits they have now.

It ends up being a bit of a catch-22.

Edit@Thaddeus

Part of the problem there is that the time/effort/reward on most of the old dungeons is pretty far out of whack. It sets up an impossible expectation.

its because we have the same dungeons for 3 years now, new dungeons = new challenges

Windsagio.1340:

Part of the problem there is that the time/effort/reward on most of the old dungeons is pretty far out of whack. It sets up an impossible expectation.

I don’t think its far out of whack. Its about 7gold per hour in good pugs group and up to around 10 gold per hour in organized group.

Silverwaste on the other end can give you 15-20 gold per hours wihtout much problem and it can even go up to 30 gold per hour in the right conditions.

Honestly, I enjoy a few dungeons here and there, but most of them aren’t exactly appealing. Every time I check Arah, it’s “accepting gold to win;” the majority of others are “zerks-a-lot or die”, with no enjoyment of running it. AC is skip mobs, burn, repeat. CoF is the only one that I have fun in, and it’s still no more than 10 mins with most groups.

Fractals seem to have a much more laid-back group running them as a whole and a lot more patience out of the groups in terms of helping other players through, explaining fights, and not rushing the content. On the surface I thought dungeons would be a great experience when I started the game, but they are one of the least enjoyable things I’ve done, and if it weren’t for CoF being my one saving grace, or needing tears for my Legendary, I probably wouldn’t step foot in them.

Because of how most of them are handled they just become wallbangs where everyone rushes from boss to boss and finds ways to hide from adds while completing objectives. I do hope they have something new to offer, or if dungeons continue to be present in new content, that they’re handled in a more enjoyable way.

Thaddeus.4891:

Windsagio.1340:

Part of the problem there is that the time/effort/reward on most of the old dungeons is pretty far out of whack. It sets up an impossible expectation.

I don’t think its far out of whack. Its about 7gold per hour in good pugs group and up to around 10 gold per hour in organized group.

Silverwaste on the other end can give you 15-20 gold per hours wihtout much problem and it can even go up to 30 gold per hour in the right conditions.

In the case of instanced content though; it sets an expectation, everything else (fractals, aether path) gets fairly commonly mentioned as ‘not rewarding enough’.

Windsagio.1340:

Many.8419:

Windsagio.1340:

You can’t make very good guesses if you’re working backwards from your conclusion.

its exactly what you do mr educated

Except no :p

I always have to repeat this, I’d love new dungeons, I just have come to the conclusion that they probably won’t happen, and that anet has good, or at least understandable reasons for not doing them.

People come into these threads with a “I like dungeons I want more dungeons so dungeons must be popular and a good idea for arenanet to do.”.

this is weird because I can see ppl expressing their opinions that they want dungeons and some scrubs coming along, devaluating the amount of challenge inside dungeons and calling arguments that dung community is small and shouldnt be supported

Prototypemind.4026:

Honestly, I enjoy a few dungeons here and there, but most of them aren’t exactly appealing. Every time I check Arah, it’s “accepting gold to win;” the majority of others are “zerks-a-lot or die”, with no enjoyment of running it. AC is skip mobs, burn, repeat. CoF is the only one that I have fun in, and it’s still no more than 10 mins with most groups.

Fractals seem to have a much more laid-back group running them as a whole and a lot more patience out of the groups in terms of helping other players through, explaining fights, and not rushing the content. On the surface I thought dungeons would be a great experience when I started the game, but they are one of the least enjoyable things I’ve done, and if it weren’t for CoF being my one saving grace, or needing tears for my Legendary, I probably wouldn’t step foot in them.

Because of how most of them are handled they just become wallbangs where everyone rushes from boss to boss and finds ways to hide from adds while completing objectives. I do hope they have something new to offer, or if dungeons continue to be present in new content, that they’re handled in a more enjoyable way.

yes, this is because we LEARNED those dungeons for 3 years now
take a new player and put him in arah or even in ac, I want to see him facerolling content

put a little perspective to your arguments, if dungeons were like you describe them at release I would agree, but they werent, because we didnt know them

this is why ppl want new dungeons, this is a great group content to learn and challenge but no revamp or dps nerf will make old dungeons interesting; we need new challenges, new ideas for ORGANISED GROUPS not zerg farms

Windsagio.1340:

I always have to repeat this, I’d love new dungeons, I just have come to the conclusion that they probably won’t happen, and that anet has good, or at least understandable reasons for not doing them.

People come into these threads with a “I like dungeons I want more dungeons so dungeons must be popular and a good idea for arenanet to do.”.

I really dont see why you need to keep repeating this. It adds nothing to the discussion. You have made your opinion clear. Theres no need to try and divert discussion by repeating your expections.

spoj.9672:

Windsagio.1340:

I always have to repeat this, I’d love new dungeons, I just have come to the conclusion that they probably won’t happen, and that anet has good, or at least understandable reasons for not doing them.

People come into these threads with a “I like dungeons I want more dungeons so dungeons must be popular and a good idea for arenanet to do.”.

I really dont see why you need to keep repeating this. It adds nothing to the discussion. You have made your opinion clear. Theres no need to try and divert discussion by repeating your expections.

I repeat it because it’s frustrating partially, you see a pretty egregious example and the instinct/urge is to go over it agin..

Also, it’s something that we have to face and deal with if we ever want to have a serious discusison on the subject. There’s a cicle-jerk element of mutual reinforcment that gets into these discussions, and it only leads to longterm bitterness and dissatisfaction… And to be able to talk about what is going on we need to cut through the self-affirmation cycle.

Windsagio.1340:

It is, but there’s a pretty consistent feel that as it stands dungeon-running is reward-motivated out of scale, and it’s warping the whole experience.

Have a quick look at this.

Basically, fun, along with most of the other worthwhile elements of gameplay, often acts as an impediment to “winning” or “getting shinies”. But even though fun is the entire point and it seems completely absurd that a player would want to get rid of it in the name of shinies, that’s exactly what many players can’t help but do.

That means that, in order to entertain players, you need to find ways to keep getting shinies from coming into opposition with fun. It’s why balance matters in a single-player game. It’s the reason “pay-to-win” attracts such revulsion.

This is actually why the game does things like have enemies magically be carrying more stuff when more players fight them — this keeps the desire for rewards from conflicting with the social play and teamwork that MMOs are supposed to be all about.

But, it also gives players the means to optimise fun out of the game by forming into zergs. The end result is that there are only three kinds of PvE content possible in GW2:

1. Open-world content with rewards, which becomes zerg bait and, as such, is usually not fun.
2. Open-world content without rewards, which most players ignore.
3. Content which limits how many players can participate at once.

Given that neither crowds nor ghost towns are social and that blobs aren’t teams, only one of those three options can offer a valid PvE experience to players.

Windsagio.1340:

Thaddeus.4891:

Windsagio.1340:

Part of the problem there is that the time/effort/reward on most of the old dungeons is pretty far out of whack. It sets up an impossible expectation.

I don’t think its far out of whack. Its about 7gold per hour in good pugs group and up to around 10 gold per hour in organized group.

Silverwaste on the other end can give you 15-20 gold per hours wihtout much problem and it can even go up to 30 gold per hour in the right conditions.

In the case of instanced content though; it sets an expectation, everything else (fractals, aether path) gets fairly commonly mentioned as ‘not rewarding enough’.

I agree with Windsagio here, it’s become the benchmark due to it’s strait forward method of reward. “here’s cash in your pocket” and all things get compared to it, I don’t think that’s really the best way to design rewards. It turns things into a farm instead of enjoyable content where you play what you want, when you want, for the reasons you want.

That said, challenging content especially needs to be rewarding. Any challenging content is going to be left alone by the majority of players and really isn’t going to show up as “worth it” on any metrics tracking player participation and interest.

I’d bet you Triple Trouble has the same kind of mediocre participation. Teq probably did too a while back before it became “sit in sparkfly 15-30 mins before reset and soak up your reward”.

It’s just how challenging content works, it’s not something most people want to do, and even those that love it probably won’t do it constantly, unless they’re otherwise motivated, and that’s where the reward comes in. A little candy for the trouble.

I think Fractals did a fine job with the different skins and ascended boxes. The problem… they decided to be kittenes and lower the droprates to absurdly small chances, and with a large pool of possibilities the odds of getting what you’re after is just miniscule. That’s not right. But, the idea is right with unique rewards instead of a cash farm IMO. Now it’s time for new skins, and a drastic increase in droprate or adjustment on how the rewards are given, but I’ll leave it at that for fractal rewards.

I’ve still done far more dungeons than fractals though because It’s nice to jump in and hit something easy have a little fun, then go about my day, where more challenging content can hold you up for a while. And that’s fun, but another reason why people aren’t going to do it as often even if they love it.

evilunderling.9265:

Windsagio.1340:

It is, but there’s a pretty consistent feel that as it stands dungeon-running is reward-motivated out of scale, and it’s warping the whole experience.

Have a quick look at this.

Basically, fun, along with most of the other worthwhile elements of gameplay, often acts as an impediment to “winning” or “getting shinies”. But even though fun is the entire point and it seems completely absurd that a player would want to get rid of it in the name of shinies, that’s exactly what many players can’t help but do.

That means that, in order to entertain players, you need to find ways to keep getting shinies from coming into opposition with fun. It’s why balance matters in a single-player game. It’s the reason “pay-to-win” attracts such revulsion.

This is actually why the game does things like have enemies magically be carrying more stuff when more players fight them — this keeps the desire for rewards from conflicting with the social play and teamwork that MMOs are supposed to be all about.

But, it also gives players the means to optimise fun out of the game by forming into zergs. The end result is that there are only three kinds of PvE content possible in GW2:

1. Open-world content with rewards, which becomes zerg bait and, as such, is usually not fun.
2. Open-world content without rewards, which most players ignore.
3. Content which limits how many players can participate at once.

Given that neither crowds nor ghost towns are social and that blobs aren’t teams, only one of those three options can offer a valid PvE experience to players.

i disagree with that last statement

only one of those three options can offer a valid PvE experience to players

all three options are valid what is fun to you may or may not be fun to others

to me personally all three aspects of pve right now are enjoyable

ghost town maps allow me to test my soloing ability which can give me a challenge

the zergs of a world boss is fun to do for the reward and defeating something i couldn’t ever do on my own and

dungeons are fun for the same reason but with only 4 other players

Windsagio.1340:

In the case of instanced content though; it sets an expectation, everything else (fractals, aether path) gets fairly commonly mentioned as ‘not rewarding enough’.

Instanced content or not have nothing to do with it. It’s a time vs reward vs challenge (or difficulty balance.

Dungeon is easier than Fractal 50 so Fractal should have a better reward/hour.
Silverwaste is easier than Dungeon so Dungeon should have a better reward/hour.
etc, etc

CoF path 1 is twice as fast as most other dungeon, so it should reward half as much. TA Aetherpath is 3-4 times longer than normal dungeon so it should reward 3-4 times more.

Thaddeus.4891:

Windsagio.1340:

In the case of instanced content though; it sets an expectation, everything else (fractals, aether path) gets fairly commonly mentioned as ‘not rewarding enough’.

Instanced content or not have nothing to do with it. It’s a time vs reward vs challenge (or difficulty balance.

Dungeon is easier than Fractal 50 so Fractal should have a better reward/hour.
Silverwaste is easier than Dungeon so Dungeon should have a better reward/hour.
etc, etc

CoF path 1 is twice as fast as most other dungeon, so it should reward half as much. TA Aetherpath is 3-4 times longer than normal dungeon so it should reward 3-4 times more.

in most game this is how it would work

i think anet is trying to limit any gating to get certain rewards

ie not locking the best rewards into the hardest content

Thaddeus.4891:

Windsagio.1340:

In the case of instanced content though; it sets an expectation, everything else (fractals, aether path) gets fairly commonly mentioned as ‘not rewarding enough’.

Instanced content or not have nothing to do with it. It’s a time vs reward vs challenge (or difficulty balance.

Dungeon is easier than Fractal 50 so Fractal should have a better reward/hour.
Silverwaste is easier than Dungeon so Dungeon should have a better reward/hour.
etc, etc

CoF path 1 is twice as fast as most other dungeon, so it should reward half as much. TA Aetherpath is 3-4 times longer than normal dungeon so it should reward 3-4 times more.

I think I’ve seen you propose this before; it would honestly solve a lot of problems if they’re careful about catching all the edge cases ><

tfcgeneralkmk.9508:

i disagree with that last statement

only one of those three options can offer a valid PvE experience to players

all three options are valid what is fun to you may or may not be fun to others

to me personally all three aspects of pve right now are enjoyable

“valid” was the wrong word. “Sustainable” would probably be better.

evilunderling.9265:

tfcgeneralkmk.9508:

i disagree with that last statement

only one of those three options can offer a valid PvE experience to players

all three options are valid what is fun to you may or may not be fun to others

to me personally all three aspects of pve right now are enjoyable

“valid” was the wrong word. “Sustainable” would probably be better.

ok what do you mean by sustainable ? consistent level of rewards?

That and the fact that players continue to play the content long after its release. You will notice that in open world its only the most farmable and newest maps which are heavily played. Old maps and zones are relatively dead by comparison and far less played than dungeons (megaserver alleviates the problem slightly). Dungeons are old but they are still played regularly by a significant amount of players. Thats because the rewards are sustainable. And the social aspect is favourable to many.

Thaddeus.4891:

Windsagio.1340:

In the case of instanced content though; it sets an expectation, everything else (fractals, aether path) gets fairly commonly mentioned as ‘not rewarding enough’.

Instanced content or not have nothing to do with it. It’s a time vs reward vs challenge (or difficulty balance.

Dungeon is easier than Fractal 50 so Fractal should have a better reward/hour.
Silverwaste is easier than Dungeon so Dungeon should have a better reward/hour.
etc, etc

CoF path 1 is twice as fast as most other dungeon, so it should reward half as much. TA Aetherpath is 3-4 times longer than normal dungeon so it should reward 3-4 times more.

While that’s very logical, I don’t think that really connects with the philosophy of this game as well as it seems like it should.

This game is very much more for the casual player, pumping even more money into the more hardcore would create a large wealth gap and could create the feeling as if new/casual players have an impassible mountain to climb to reach their goal of owning say a legendary or something like mjolinar.

So I really don’t see scaling the monetary gains being the correct route. I think trying to have equality across the board in that if you’re playing you’re gaining, but let the choice on what you do be based on other variables. You may do SW for your Luminescent gear. Fractals for your weapons. Dungeons for token gear/achievement. Or just choose what you have fun doing.

But, this is kinda off topic.

Thaddeus.4891:

Windsagio.1340:

In the case of instanced content though; it sets an expectation, everything else (fractals, aether path) gets fairly commonly mentioned as ‘not rewarding enough’.

Instanced content or not have nothing to do with it. It’s a time vs reward vs challenge (or difficulty balance.

Dungeon is easier than Fractal 50 so Fractal should have a better reward/hour.
Silverwaste is easier than Dungeon so Dungeon should have a better reward/hour.
etc, etc

CoF path 1 is twice as fast as most other dungeon, so it should reward half as much. TA Aetherpath is 3-4 times longer than normal dungeon so it should reward 3-4 times more.

And if on average, one rewards more money proportionally to the other, the hardcore players will all do that one still, and the casual players will just stick to the one that takes the least time overall to fit their schedules.

Some dungeons also take some parties a LONG time, and some groups can do that same content in minutes. Now imagine the negative impact of further-awarding the “10k+AP zerker experienced only” parties which can navigate Aetherpath in less than an hour. It becomes exploited and ultimately hurts the game further.

Just creating new content creates an influx of interest at least temporarily. Giving the token rewards to some newer dungeons more value (cool new runes, skins, random loot bags, etc.) can create more value for that content for an extended period of time, especially id it doesn’t conflict with the interests of the older dungeons.

People are ultimately going to optimize their play time in the end. There’s no reason not to create more content, even if it is less-often played.

Jerus.4350:

Thaddeus.4891:

Windsagio.1340:

In the case of instanced content though; it sets an expectation, everything else (fractals, aether path) gets fairly commonly mentioned as ‘not rewarding enough’.

Instanced content or not have nothing to do with it. It’s a time vs reward vs challenge (or difficulty balance.

Dungeon is easier than Fractal 50 so Fractal should have a better reward/hour.
Silverwaste is easier than Dungeon so Dungeon should have a better reward/hour.
etc, etc

CoF path 1 is twice as fast as most other dungeon, so it should reward half as much. TA Aetherpath is 3-4 times longer than normal dungeon so it should reward 3-4 times more.

While that’s very logical, I don’t think that really connects with the philosophy of this game as well as it seems like it should.

This game is very much more for the casual player, pumping even more money into the more hardcore would create a large wealth gap and could create the feeling as if new/casual players have an impassible mountain to climb to reach their goal of owning say a legendary or something like mjolinar.

So I really don’t see scaling the monetary gains being the correct route. I think trying to have equality across the board in that if you’re playing you’re gaining, but let the choice on what you do be based on other variables. You may do SW for your Luminescent gear. Fractals for your weapons. Dungeons for token gear/achievement. Or just choose what you have fun doing.

But, this is kinda off topic.

main topic is the deadest of horses :p

I’d disagree with your thing though, this game is seriously plagued by what you might call Over-optimization.

It’s hard to get groups going for relatively unrewarding dungeons;
It’s hard to enjoy Silverwastes playing as intended because of people doing ‘optimized profits’ chest circuits.
In the past it was hard to enjoy some zone content because you’d tend to get into conflict with people doing champion trains for optimizing money income.

It’s a big problem, especially because it’s not something you can just make people not do. Many players think of their play time in this worklike way, and its their right to do so if they enjoy it.

So instead we have to consider normalizing rewards in such a way as to discourage these disruptive patterns (ie people choosing content based on these extremely static reward expectaitons, people playing areas ‘not as intended’).

This is super hard though, you don’t want to sandblast the experience down to nothing… just even it out enough so relative rewards is less likely to be the primary motivator.

I think you misunderstand me Windsagio because reading your post it sounds like we’re on basically the same page. Content shouldn’t be done for pure monetary optimization, but instead because we want to do it. We shouldn’t feel pushed to do chest farms and with that have trouble finding just normal SW maps. We shouldn’t be pushed to do certain dungeon paths and leave others barren taking forever to find groups to do it.

My point though was that I’d even go as far as to say difficulty shouldn’t matter either, as it can create an issue for newer players feeling unable to progress in the game in the general sense based on ascetics and general purchases. Instead we should simply have special things or even purely fun reasons to do various content and not feel at a loss because we’re doing something we like instead of what is most monetarily optimized.

(Of course more challenging content is even harder to balance as you have to factor in failure rates and all that, but yeah… /shrug talking ideals here)

Which goes back to the original point. Rewards need to be appropriately balanced. Either certain areas need to be buffed or others need to be nerfed. Buffing unrewarding areas to be more inline with current best areas would be the more popular solution. You cant avoid optimisation. So you just need to adapt and balance the game as it is.

Theres nothing wrong with certain areas giving a lot of pure gold. The problem arises when other areas cant compete with those rewards for value and more importantly sustainable value. Account bound unique skins do not have value past the first time you get them.

Jerus.4350:

I think you misunderstand me Windsagio because reading your post it sounds like we’re on basically the same page. Content shouldn’t be done for pure monetary optimization, but instead because we want to do it. We shouldn’t feel pushed to do chest farms and with that have trouble finding just normal SW maps. We shouldn’t be pushed to do certain dungeon paths and leave others barren taking forever to find groups to do it.

My point though was that I’d even go as far as to say difficulty shouldn’t matter either, as it can create an issue for newer players feeling unable to progress in the game in the general sense based on ascetics and general purchases. Instead we should simply have special things or even purely fun reasons to do various content and not feel at a loss because we’re doing something we like instead of what is most monetarily optimized.

(Of course more challenging content is even harder to balance as you have to factor in failure rates and all that, but yeah… /shrug talking ideals here)

Yeah we’re agreeing, I took Thadd’s post to be based on the following assumptions:

1) Rewards are scaled to expected completion time (probably put into brackets for clear communication)
2) As skill level increases, completion time would preferably stay proportional (so a ‘fast’ less rewarded dungeon is always faster than a ‘slow’ heavily rewarded dungeon regardless of skill level)

Otherwise we’re in sync

Many.8419:

Windsagio.1340:

You can’t make very good guesses if you’re working backwards from your conclusion.

its exactly what you do mr educated

Not to make this an academic argument but … no. You don’t make your conclusions FIRST, then make a logical path to ‘prove’ a hypothesis that fits it. You might be surprised how many educated people play games that recognize ‘garbage’ science when they see it.

Obtena.7952:

Many.8419:

Windsagio.1340:

You can’t make very good guesses if you’re working backwards from your conclusion.

its exactly what you do mr educated

Not to make this an academic argument but … no. You don’t make your conclusions FIRST, then make a logical path to ‘prove’ a hypothesis that fits it. You might be surprised how many educated people play games that recognize ‘garbage’ science when they see it.

i don’t remember the name but coming up with an conclusion the way you described is a logical fallacy

Red Queen.7915:

I’ll laugh so hard if they put in new dungeons that are impossible to complete as a full zerker group and actually require you to move around and bring different builds and skill sets to even stand a chance.

…then I’ll rejoice and probably play more dungeons than ever.

Revealed? Could the reason for this entrenched resistance to the inclusion of any dungeons in this this open world xpac be (all too familiar) zerk hate in disguise? You guys should know by now that builds and utilities =/= forced roles.

ODB.6891:

Revealed? Could the reason for this entrenched resistance to the inclusion of any dungeons in this this open world xpac be (all too familiar) zerk hate in disguise? You guys should know by now that builds and utilities =/= forced roles.

It’s a rocket science.

Since the discussion in this thread has derailed and is no longer constructive this thread is now closed.