Guild Wars 2

I think nobody expects GW2 challenging content to be anything like hardcore WoW raids. If 70% of the WoW playerbase is doing raiding (even to some small degree) then Anet can’t dismiss raiding from GW2.

Sure they can, different game, different customerbase, different things will work. I think GW2 has largely “purged” the vast majority of players with any interest in raids, and I seriously doubt they would ever come back. I don’t think raids would appeal to most GW2 players, any more than it would be a good idea for KCF to focus on making hamburgers because they seem to work for McDonalds. Let GW2 do well what GW2 does well, big open world content that attract casuals.

Yet all MMORPG raids are like that. They all (the best of them at least) have a good amount of all three pillars of difficulty, skill, knowledge and build.

Yes, but I’m saying for that sort of content to function as a significant player hook, it requires significantly more developer attention than GW2 has shown to that sort of thing, and more than I think they’d likely be capable of. It requires constant content updates to keep ahead of the front line, so that you have a fresh challenge before they have burned out on the last one. I think that it’s much more sustainable to abandon that type of content, and focus on content that is more fun even once you’ve got it on farm.

There is no “best” combination for all encounters, in one encounter you will need to do different things than others, that’s why any specific rotation that beats all (like the 11111, or 521112111211152111) is dumb

I was talking more about gearing there, but I’m aware that the way I described it was a bit confusing. My point was that if a given content requires, let’s say, three “A-Type” Healers, 3 “C-Type” Tanks, and 10 A or C type DPSers, then figuring that out from scratch might be difficult, but once you’ve done that and word has spread, it’s just a matter of “Of, we’ve got two Healers, do we have one more. . .ok, Fred, yeah, ok 3 healers, now tanks. . .”

Once you’re at that point, it’s no longer a fun mechanic, it’s just a drab checklist that slows things down when you can’t find the exact members you need, so at that point what is the difference between that and having twenty assorted DPSers that can tank and heal for themselves? I think that’s the beauty of GW2, that is cuts out a lot of the wasted time and BS, and just lets you get to having fun.

The “any team can work” philosophy is going to change, it’s the number one reason for not having good encounters.

I think that’s lazy thinking. I think it’s perfectly reasonable to be able to develop content that can work with any team. I think the best way to do this is with bundles and gadgets. Have combat encounters where you use your innate powers, and anyone can work for this so long as everyone is on their toes, and then change that up with tactical encounters that require roles to be played, but provide environmental tools to allow any character to instantly become the tool needed, without needing to come in as the right class with the right gear. If someone needs to be a dedicated healer, then have a healing toolkit that is equivalent to a relatively well geared healer-specced build. Any Zerker Thief could pick one up and be a dedicated healer, and then it just comes down to the player’s skill at that role.

The turrets in nuTeq sort of fill this role, except that they’re stationary and only six of them for the entire map. The bazookas for Claw work at this even better, although the actual gameplay involving them is more limited. I was sad when they removed the ability to cancel out of the fire shield, because standing right in the middle of the lane and using only dodge rolls and fire shield to avoid all incoming attacks was one of my favorite minigames for a time. I think they could improve Claw dramatically by making both “gutters” deathzones, restoring the ability to cooldown-cancel Fire Shield, and then making his Fear effect a unique one, immune to condi cleanses. Maybe also have some effect that would actively punish people for stacking, like maybe use that new Zerker projectile effect. Anyways. . .

And while “any team can work” applies to current content, it reality it doesn’t, the dungeon meta exists for a reason.

I think it’s inevitable that there will always be a “best” way to do things, but the truth is you can have an entirely non-meta dungeon team and run those same dungeons in perfectly respectable times, so that’s fine. There’s a huge gulf between having a non-meta team that takes maybe twice as long to complete a dungeon path, and a non-meta team that can never make it out of the first room, even with equal player skill.

Imagine if a good deal of the playerbase is already doing the hard mode “quickly” but a brand new player starts playing the game with his friends. It would take him 2 months to do it with his team of players

Typically, once anyone has content on farm (leaving out irrelevant mechanics from other games like attuning and gear grind), everyone has it mostly on farm. I mean, I don’t dungeon much, but it’s only ever taken me a couple of attempts to master whatever the mechanics of a well-understood dungeon is, usually without any pre-planning, just going along with the rest of the group. If I was really struggling I’d watch a youtube video of someone doing it. I doubt it would take anyone two months to master a dungeon that others had already conquered, and if it did take him two months, I doubt he’d ever clear it.

Is there any reason to pick the 2 month but harder version?

That would be up to the player. As I said, you shouldn’t do the harder version if the only reason you’re doing it is to acquire the reward. That should not be the reason to do it. If all you want is the reward, take the easier path, no harm in that. You should do the hard mode version because you WANT to do the hard mode version, because your reward is the sense of accomplishment in having completed it yourself, regardless of the reward. The tangible reward should not be the goal, it should just be something you get along the way to the goal.

Balancing rewards should never be about “does this make the task worth doing?” It should be about “if they are doing the task because they want to, will they feel that they are wasting their time?” It should be about making sure that while they pursue the content they want, the work they put in does not leave them behind other players running easier content. To this end, content where they are designed to fail it many times before eventually completing it, should at least have various milestones or other reward mechanisms that mean that even when they fail it (after an ernest effort), they still make some reward equivalent to the time they invested. Even if player A runs through easy mode daily and clears it, and player B runs through hard mode every day and hasn’t yet fully completed it, by the end of that first month player A might have gotten the unique reward already, but player B should not be far behind him, if at all, in terms of generic loot/gold.

Also it’s unfair for those who go the “farm way” too. I wouldn’t be so happy if something took me 2 months to get, but after some players managed to beat it, it became easier and easier and easier. That wouldn’t make any kind of sense either.

That is almost inevitable in most content, and in life as well. People work really hard to get something the first day or week, and then over time people develop easier methods and anyone can get it. People who want to play early pay full price for a game, people who don’t care as much wait for a big sale. Same thing. You would know that this is how the system works going in, so if you are a “hardcore grinder” who really wants to get the item first, then you would work really hard at it, and get the item as quickly as possible. If you were lazy you would know that it would become much easier as time went on, and would essentially be “waiting for the sale,” and acquire it then. It’s fair so long as it’s clearly explained.

A) Anyone with any skill level or ability will do the same open world events in the same time frame. No amount of skill or ability can help with it.

Possibly, although they can always include fail conditions (meaning nobody gets credit for time spent on that event), and they could also include personal milestones, things where each player is responsible for accomplishing specific tasks along the event, but these can be tricky because you don’t want people “kill stealing” these. I think the phasing they use with Adventures is good here, they can add things that players need to do that each player only sees and interacts with his own copy during the event, meaning nobody else can interfere.

Also, events that are not on exact timers can vary wildly in the time they take to complete based on how the group works it. Have you ever tried the Temple of Grenth events in Cursed Shore? The difference between a mostly expert group and a mostly incompetent group is massive, and failure is definitely an option.

One team might do the entire Arah (all 4 paths in 1 hour) while another one might only finish Arah p4. With which one will you compare then?

Closer to the “best time,” but not too close.

I only said to not include any other rewards to that type of content, it’s already rewarding enough.

And again, “reward” is not a generic quantity. There is no quantity of reward that is “enough.” All that matters is whether the specific reward someone wants is available via that means or not. If the player can get 99% of the rewards via open world content, but the reward he wants is part of the 1% he can’t, then the system has failed him.

That doesn’t mean someone should get all the rewards by staying only in their comfort zone. I’d love to be able to get all rewards with the login rewards, but I can understand why something like that is unreasonable for a game.

Again, that is an entirely pointless strawman and you should be better than that. It was bad and you should feel bad.

Now on the topic of “comfort zones,” I’ve already expressed that I think it’s reasonable to offer rewards based on people trying new content, for genuinely participating in it for a few hours or so, but beyond that the game should respect the player’s choices, and if the player decides that this content is genuinely not for him, then the game should respect that and not continue to try bribing him into it. Rewards that involve a large investment of time should allow you to invest that time in an activity of your own choosing, rewards that require you to invest your time the way the game wants you to should only demand a small amount of your time to earn them.

I am alright with a short + skillful path to acquire items and a long + grindy path.

You can look at the NCsoft numbers.. they indeed do not split those numbers, but there is a huge spike of income with the release, and then a lower (until the announcement of HoT, always declining) income after that. Using that spike as “box sales” and the income after that as cash-shop income should give you a good idea. Same can be done with GW1 where you take the spikes around expansion releases as box-sales.

Well, one, that “huge spike” at the beginning also includes gem sales. Personally I spent another $30 or so within the first quarter of launch on slots and banks. Second, while the biggest spike was with the box launch, which is expected, the money in between was not insignificant. Over the past three years they made as much over each 2-3 quarters as they did that first quarter. We’ll see how HoT does, but I’m skeptical that the box alone will blow out the previous year’s profits.

You also have to keep in mind that yearly expansions would lead to at least some additional player fatigue, the players that don’t want to buy a new box each year. I mean, look at the amount of people whining about having to pay $50 for Hot after THREE years of free gameplay from their initial purchase.

So the spending population would tend to fall each year relative to the path they’ve been on, less customers buying into the model. It’s difficult to predict what overall impact that would have to the profit margins, too many variables.

SkiTz.4590:

Torolan.5816:

SkiTz.4590:

Where do you get your assumptions from?
harder means less ppl doing it? what The ppl wanting hardcore pve content either quit the game LONG time ago OR moved into spvp/wvw where its usually not a braindead auto attack spam game like you have now…
less ppl do it because they FIND IT BORING.. thats why anet is bringing in endgame progression/content…. because of evident it was that this game was lacking it…

I don´t really understand how this can be even in question? Even if that probably baffles you, most people don´t want to spend their game time in the same dungeon, the adrenaline rush gets very quickly replaced by the feeling of being tired of failing at the same spot, or a variety of different spots.
I am a fairly stubborn player, but simply gave up at some point to obtain Lumi Armor because of the grindy and unforgiven nature of LS2 .Yes, stuff can both be grindy and unforgiven at once. If I did not luckily have a “pro player” in my guild, I would probably only have a few of them instead of at least a majority of them because I could not be kitten d to enter them again.

Sounds like a personal problem… Its not anets problem or anyone else that you are too stubborn and give up easily and rely on others to carry you… You give up but you still want the reward….sounds reasonable…

That’s where you’re wrong. If there are enough people like Torolan than it is absolutely Anet’s problem because enough people being frustrated isn’t good for the game either.

Let’s say there are 15% of the people who absolutely love hard content and want something really hard t sink their teeth into. If there are 25% of the playerbase frustrated by the content, then there are more people unhappy than happy at the changes.

Well wait, I hear you say. They don’t have to play my content and I don’t have to play their content. That’s true. But if those same people who are already frustrated see rewards that they either can’t have, or rewards that the game is telling them they’re not entitled to because they’re not good enough or not willing to work harder at playing, those people will leave.

In my opinion, it is absolutely Anet’s problem which group is bigger and how changes made to the game will affect the populous and by extension it becomes all our problems.

Sykper.6583:

A skin’s merit (not its look) is diminished the more alternatives to achieving it there are.

No. Skin’s merit lies in its look. What you are talking is skin’s exclusivity, which is a separate thing, even if it’s tied to the same object. A skin looks equally good (or bad) regardless if it’s a common drop or is something only one person in the game can have. It’s bragging value does diminish with introducing more alternatives, but it’s completely independent from the skin itself (after all, exclusivity is in no way dependant on how the object looks like).

SkiTz.4590:

Clearly anet is not listening to you.
Other wise some skins wouldn’t be outrageously more pricey than other.

No, it’s exactly opposite. If you were right, then every precursor would cost about the same. Instead, their prices differ wildly, which suggests that there are other, more important factors than rarity that influence their worth.

Coulter.2315:

Sorry so just so we’re all clear YOU believe that humans cannot adapt or improve and are frozen in time.. You must have been an impressive 2 yr old, disappointing now though…

Of course they can. Remember though, that if the average skills of the player population will rise high enough that a majority of players will be able to complete the Challenging Content™, the same players that are asking for it now will start asking for something even harder, because that content will in their eyes become casual, no longer worthy to be called a challenge.

In short, any content that eventually will be able to be finished by an average player is not what Challenging Content proposers are asking for, and is not something that will be considered challenging for too long. And those people that ask for exclusive rewards, will want those rewards to stay exclusive. That means, again, them being locked behind a content that most people won’t be able to do.

laokoko.7403:

Take for example, while I like the fractal skins, I think chaos skins look much better.

And i think exactly opposite. I know that if it was the chaos skins that were dropping in fractals, i wouldn’t care for them even one bit.

Astralporing.1957:

It doesn’t have to be the same timeframe, you know. It just shouldn’t be excessively different.

The things is, you can’t have a timeframe with some types of content, I gave an example with Arah exclusive rewards also available in Cursed Shore events. You CANNOT have a timeframe with Arah runs, in 1 hour one group of players will run all 4 Arah paths, in 1 hour another group might only run Arah P4 and nothing else.

On the open world that’s not the case, skill doesn’t matter, build doesn’t matter and knowledge of mechanics doesn’t matter for event completion. They either have timers, escort events, waves of spawns that all kinds of players will finish them in the same time frame.

The same thing can be applied to the multiple ways of getting the rewards for challenging content. So how can 1 hour of challenging content compare to 1 hour of non challenging content? All I’m saying is to use what the lowest possible skilled player (but still able to finish it) can do in 1 hour as basis for it and not the best of the best pros. So in the Arah example, 1 hour of easy content should offer the same rewards as a single Arah P4 run (or even less because there are players who might take even 2 hours to finish it) and not the same rewards as the “pro” group that can do the whole of Arah in 1 hour.

maddoctor.2738:

No. The kind of boring Open world like champ farming, sw cf, world bosses and pvp daily farm maps, should never ever provide a viable path to achieving any goal.

Why, because you don’t like it?

I admit that “any goal” was too much. But the answer is not because I don’t like it but because I want to play a video game, not work at a job. Not all rewards should be available within everyone’s comfort zone.

maddoctor.2738:

Gaaroth.2567:

Devata.6589:

maddoctor.2738:

It’s unreasonable for them to put black lion skins in regular gameplay yes. So boring grinding content that allows faster access to those skins (better gold/hour ratio) will always be the go to method for them. So let’s add some rewards that can’t be acquired by those activities, they have enough rewards already.

Why would it be unreasonable. The fact that getting such items has always been such a boring grinding content is the main issue with the game and so they should do something about it for HoT. Such items should have been put in the game (behind content) from the start.

Exactly :/

I never said I wouldn’t want them to put those black lion skins behind content, it would be awesome if they did. Image if the challenging group content rewards are actually black lion skins! No reason for anyone to complain about them being exclusive or anything anymore.

However so far they’ve shown that the gem store items are created and maintained by a different team than the in-game rewards team. And they want to keep them that way, for example they said that the gem store will only have outfits now, and HoT content will have loads of new armor skins.

I seriously doubt they will ever put gem store items in content because it’s their payment model. Of course if they do, I will be among the first to smile

And I never said you said you did not want it

Not sure if they are created by a different team and it does not even matter if we talk about “black lion skins”. I am just talking about the best items (and those happen to be cash-shop items, and black lion skins).

I did not hear any statement about the gem-store only getting outfits, not to mention that I still consider black lion skins, gem-tore items.. just indirectly. Yes this is indeed very much linked to the payment model they have been using the last 2,5 years.

That is exactly why I said I would only expect this problem to be solved when they use another model.. like the B2P model, you know the model that made Anet who they are, and the model GW2 got advertised with originally, but at some point during the first half year they seem to have shifted to the current model.
(Maybe that was always the plan, maybe because it fitted better with the LS approach, maybe because NCsoft told them, maybe because they hired a monetize person who made them make this shift, idk. But imho for the game it was the worse decision they ever made exactly because of the things we are talking about in this thread.).

Ohoni.6057:

Sure they can, different game, different customerbase, different things will work. I think GW2 has largely “purged” the vast majority of players with any interest in raids, and I seriously doubt they would ever come back. I don’t think raids would appeal to most GW2 players, any more than it would be a good idea for KCF to focus on making hamburgers because they seem to work for McDonalds. Let GW2 do well what GW2 does well, big open world content that attract casuals.

Fortunately they can’t and they already announced that challenging group content is coming. Big open world content that attract casuals can maintain a game for so long until it feels like a job and not a video game anymore.

Once you’re at that point, it’s no longer a fun mechanic, it’s just a drab checklist that slows things down when you can’t find the exact members you need, so at that point what is the difference between that and having twenty assorted DPSers that can tank and heal for themselves? I think that’s the beauty of GW2, that is cuts out a lot of the wasted time and BS, and just lets you get to having fun.

Only in a game like guild wars 2 where you can change your build on the fly quickly and effortlessly that’s not a problem. There is absolutely no reason for a Thief to not switch to a Stealth heavy build with traits and utilities so the group can pass through a hard part, or the Guardian speccing for more projectile reflects. In other MMORPGs waiting time is longer because they can’t adapt to different roles like in GW2. That’s a huge plus of the game.

Balancing rewards should never be about “does this make the task worth doing?”

That’s exactly what balancing rewards is all about and the reason certain activities are so out of balance in this game. It’s the very reason that the game feels so grindy and boring.

That is almost inevitable in most content, and in life as well. People work really hard to get something the first day or week, and then over time people develop easier methods and anyone can get it. People who want to play early pay full price for a game, people who don’t care as much wait for a big sale. Same thing. You would know that this is how the system works going in, so if you are a “hardcore grinder” who really wants to get the item first, then you would work really hard at it, and get the item as quickly as possible. If you were lazy you would know that it would become much easier as time went on, and would essentially be “waiting for the sale,” and acquire it then. It’s fair so long as it’s clearly explained.

Developing “easier” methods by players is fine, reducing the difficulty by artificial means is not.

One team might do the entire Arah (all 4 paths in 1 hour) while another one might only finish Arah p4. With which one will you compare then?

Closer to the “best time,” but not too close.

And this is where the “handed to them” phrase comes into place. No. The worst possible time is the reasonable answer.

I only said to not include any other rewards to that type of content, it’s already rewarding enough.

And again, “reward” is not a generic quantity. There is no quantity of reward that is “enough.” All that matters is whether the specific reward someone wants is available via that means or not. If the player can get 99% of the rewards via open world content, but the reward he wants is part of the 1% he can’t, then the system has failed him.

To you maybe that’s all that matters. Not everyone thinks the same, all that matters to mean is how the majority of rewards is being given. It’s ALL about some parts being rewarding enough, the quantity of the rewards they give is enough to justify it. You don’t think that way, but that doesn’t make any other way of thinking wrong.

That doesn’t mean someone should get all the rewards by staying only in their comfort zone. I’d love to be able to get all rewards with the login rewards, but I can understand why something like that is unreasonable for a game.

Again, that is an entirely pointless strawman and you should be better than that. It was bad and you should feel bad.

What? Some players can only get the login rewards because everything else is too hard for them. How are they supposed to get the rewards then? You are saying everyone should get them, why not players who just login?

Killthehealersffs.8940:

[quote:]The problem here however is that Anet was simply not able to do this right. There where / are making their money mainly with the cash-shop and so they need to convince people to throw money at it.

PPl went in Riot when they heard the price of the x-pack …. and they where forced to use real money and not the gold>gem mechanic .
So the MAJORITY of the popualtion does not want to pay real money .
[/quote]

I am 100% convinced that if they had always let the cash-shop be a very small thing, putting all those fun / cool items (the once you now see in black lion chests and the cash-shop itself) and they would have released the first expansion a year or 1,5 year after release there would not be a huge riot.. Just as there were no big riots with the GW1 campaigns that also did coast the same.

However, what happened is that they turned it into a cash-shop game so when announcing an expansion people look at other cash-shop games and see prices between €0 and €40,- so if then GW2 cost €50,- people find it to expensive.. you know because it is… for a cash-hop game, but not for a B2P game.

Killthehealersffs.8940:

But because business is buness at the end of the year they must have gathered a ’’fixxed’’ amount based on the contract they have sign … either by selling the 50$ dollars x-pack or 25$ x-packs+gems stores .
And in every year passing the ‘’fixxed income’’ needed with increase by +10% .
Otherwise we will see a ‘’cut-getting fired’’ for their employers

So release an expansion every year to 1,5 year and you also have earned a “fixed” amount by the end of that year.. (Not that it has to be yearly btw.) In totall maybe even a higher number.

Astralporing.1957:

Sykper.6583:

A skin’s merit (not its look) is diminished the more alternatives to achieving it there are.

No. Skin’s merit lies in its look. What you are talking is skin’s exclusivity, which is a separate thing, even if it’s tied to the same object. A skin looks equally good (or bad) regardless if it’s a common drop or is something only one person in the game can have. It’s bragging value does diminish with introducing more alternatives, but it’s completely independent from the skin itself (after all, exclusivity is in no way dependant on how the object looks like).

Then we will have to disagree ultimately on this point, and I doubt either of us will concede to one side or another.

Devata.6589:

However, what happened is that they turned it into a cash-shop game so when announcing an expansion people look at other cash-shop games and see prices between €0 and €40,- so if then GW2 cost €50,- people find it to expensive.. you know because it is… for a cash-hop game, but not for a B2P game.

.

Why do we have to repeat the 6 months conversation
GW1 is easier to make so it cost less , and less money needed to pay for the x-pack .
In reallity in case you dont read carefully (and it happens many times) , the population where where were going kittenet storm for :
‘’old players are forced to pay full price and there is not a thing to reward them’’

Devata.6589:

I did not hear any statement about the gem-store only getting outfits, not to mention that I still consider black lion skins, gem-tore items.. just indirectly. Yes this is indeed very much linked to the payment model they have been using the last 2,5 years.

You dont remeber when we had the 6 months conversation in the Deavata Hijact threads , from the 2015 January till Martch ?
Where you where moaning that the Gemstore k*tten offering COSMETIC SETS in the gemstore and they would be better ingame ?
While in reaility GEMSTORE SETS have been replaced with GEMSTORES OUTFITS from the May of 2014 ?

And in the other hand we had silly ppl in the forums (that i must take care of) that where saying:
‘’Oh they hired the dude that worked in Mapplestory , so the game is doomed with the inc P2W items’’

Edit: leaving this threads .
Need to have this account back by November :P
But for kittening sake …………. dude >_>

Devata.6589:

Just as there were no big riots with the GW1 campaigns that also did coast the same.

GW1 expansions didn’t include the previous expansion as a bonus.

Astralporing.1957:

I do. What you seem to not understand is that there’s a marked difference between a game involving effort, and effort being the most important point behind a game. You seem to be arguing for the second, while for me this turns the game into work, instead of fun.

Why is fun and challenge opposite to eachother? Basicly anyone who play sports in a competition, or even recreational, challenge themselves to become better at it. And it’s not always easy. So why would people enjoy it in your logic?

I’ve been doing 1-2 sports at a time ever since i was a little kid, and i really enjoy going out and training, even when i’m totally exhausted sometimes, i just push myself and the feeling i have after every practice, knowing i gave it my all, is just awesome.

So yeah, effort to me is one of the most important things, since i love pushing myself. It’s was makes something fun for me.
You know what feels like a job to me? Doing things that don’t challenge me at all over and over. That’s what most jobs feel like to me. I’m lucky enough to have a job that does challenge me on a daily basis, but that doesn’t mean for one second i want a game that doesn’t challenge me

Challenge = Fun to me.

Vayne.8563:

That’s where you’re wrong. If there are enough people like Torolan than it is absolutely Anet’s problem because enough people being frustrated isn’t good for the game either.

What about people being frustrated by how the game ALREADY is then? Players that still stay with the game because they love the mechanics, community and WvW/PvP aspect of it but STILL wait patiently for something more challenging to come for the game.

Let’s say there are 15% of the people who absolutely love hard content and want something really hard t sink their teeth into. If there are 25% of the playerbase frustrated by the content, then there are more people unhappy than happy at the changes.

Let’s say that there is a 25% that doesn’t like the current grind content and is frustrated by it? Even in your example without challenging content you make that 15% unhappy, the 25% that is frustrated by that content can always ignore it, therefore it won’t have any effect in their enjoyment of the game. So in the end with challenging content everyone is happy, without it, 15% is unhappy.

Well wait, I hear you say. They don’t have to play my content and I don’t have to play their content. That’s true. But if those same people who are already frustrated see rewards that they either can’t have, or rewards that the game is telling them they’re not entitled to because they’re not good enough or not willing to work harder at playing, those people will leave.

I can already see reward in the other content that I want but I can’t have.

maddoctor.2738:

Devata.6589:

Just as there were no big riots with the GW1 campaigns that also did coast the same.

GW1 expansions didn’t include the previous expansion as a bonus.

That’s true and it costs Anet and they know it. Anet said going into Guild Wars 2 they wouldn’t be using that system, because it divided the player base. That’s the reason for a lot of the design decisions Anet made in Guild Wars 2.

It’s such a strong thread running through their decisions that one can only assume that they consider the previous way it was done to be unsuccessful.

maddoctor.2738:

. But the answer is not because I don’t like it but because I want to play a video game, not work at a job. Not all rewards should be available within everyone’s comfort zone.

Call me crazy, but taking goals and putting them outside of people’s comfort zones sounds -exactly- like working at a job.

Gene Archer.8560:

maddoctor.2738:

. But the answer is not because I don’t like it but because I want to play a video game, not work at a job. Not all rewards should be available within everyone’s comfort zone.

Call me crazy, but taking goals and putting them outside of people’s comfort zones sounds -exactly- like working at a job.

Then we have a different definition of a job. Putting goals behind intense repetitive content is exactly like working at a job (apologies to anyone working at a non-repetitive, fun and engaging job).

Putting things outside poeple’s comfort zones sounds exactly like any video game. Sometimes I really get the idea that players who post on threads like this have never played video games.

Gene Archer.8560:

maddoctor.2738:

. But the answer is not because I don’t like it but because I want to play a video game, not work at a job. Not all rewards should be available within everyone’s comfort zone.

Call me crazy, but taking goals and putting them outside of people’s comfort zones sounds -exactly- like working at a job.

Really? I guess you have an amazing job then. About let’s say 90% of jobs are basicly doing the same thing over and over. Even if there is variation to it. That is not taking you out of your comfort zone.

Ohoni.6057:

You can look at the NCsoft numbers.. they indeed do not split those numbers, but there is a huge spike of income with the release, and then a lower (until the announcement of HoT, always declining) income after that. Using that spike as “box sales” and the income after that as cash-shop income should give you a good idea. Same can be done with GW1 where you take the spikes around expansion releases as box-sales.

Well, one, that “huge spike” at the beginning also includes gem sales. Personally I spent another $30 or so within the first quarter of launch on slots and banks. Second, while the biggest spike was with the box launch, which is expected, the money in between was not insignificant. Over the past three years they made as much over each 2-3 quarters as they did that first quarter. We’ll see how HoT does, but I’m skeptical that the box alone will blow out the previous year’s profits.

You also have to keep in mind that yearly expansions would lead to at least some additional player fatigue, the players that don’t want to buy a new box each year. I mean, look at the amount of people whining about having to pay $50 for Hot after THREE years of free gameplay from their initial purchase.

So the spending population would tend to fall each year relative to the path they’ve been on, less customers buying into the model. It’s difficult to predict what overall impact that would have to the profit margins, too many variables.

“Well, one, that “huge spike” at the beginning also includes gem sales." yeah and the number in-between also includes box-sales so hopefully that levels each other out. I never said the numbers where exact. I just work with what I have.
Not to mention that many of the sales (including yours) will be from things like bank slots and character slots so are very much linked to the box-sale and not the other items we talk about here.

“Second, while the biggest spike was with the box launch, which is expected, the money in between was not insignificant.”
I never said it was not insignificant..

“Over the past three years they made as much over each 2-3 quarters as they did that first quarter.”
This is false. I don’t want to do the exact math at this moment but here is a fast less exact version. I contribute Q3 and Q4 mostly to box sales so add those two as game box sales income.. That is 164,854 Mn KRW.

Everything From Q1 2013 until Q2 2015 I count as gem-sales. not going to do the exact math, but it was a pretty strait line from Q1 2013 to Q2 2015 (in fact it’s not, when doing it better I will come lower, because with the announcement of HoT income increased) so let’s take the average of those two. So that comes down to 29,426 Mn KRW.

164,854 / 29,426 = 5,6. So on average they need 5,6 quarters of cash-shop income to make up for one release of the game.

I said 1 to 1,5 year that is on average 5,5 quarters.

With GW1 on average every campaign earned them the same amount as the initial game. So based on those number, if they would indeed have released an expansion every 1 to 1,5 year they would have a higher income. As far as we know, the team did not increase for HoT so cost would likely be similar.

Now I must say I don’t think HoT will make as much money as GW2 did because I think they did some irreversible damage to the game, but on the other hand, quarterly sales have also been dropping, so if you would continue this trend the numbers might still end up.. We will need to have some numbers of HoT to say anything about that, but that will always be the case, you will always need the numbers from the future to be sure about the future.

“You also have to keep in mind that yearly expansions would lead to at least some additional player fatigue, the players that don’t want to buy a new box each year.” and you forget about the people getting burned out by the grind we have now and could be lower when they earned the money with the expansions?

" I mean, look at the amount of people whining about having to pay $50 for Hot after THREE years of free gameplay from their initial purchase. "
But there were not much complains about the GW1 campaigns.. maybe because people have started to see GW2 as a cash-shop game and with that also expect lower expansion prices?

maddoctor.2738:

What about people being frustrated by how the game ALREADY is then? Players that still stay with the game because they love the mechanics, community and WvW/PvP aspect of it but STILL wait patiently for something more challenging to come for the game.

Don´t get me wrong:
*I am ok with challenging content as long as you are not getting nothing for valiant effort, like it was in ls2.
*I am not complaining that I do not get the armor. My friendly fellow guild members indeed dragged me through what for me was an ordeal after doing it already once in the course of the story and there doing fairly well, but not largely flawless as the lumi getting repetition of the ls2 demanded. I have repaid that (unasked) favor with helping other members and this especially helpful guy with making Wvw and Fractal runs with them. If I would really be the pushy, lazy type, I would ask the friendly people to walk me trough the last piece of ordeal that I am missing too. But that will never happen as long as it is me in control of the characters.

maddoctor.2738:

Devata.6589:

Just as there were no big riots with the GW1 campaigns that also did coast the same.

GW1 expansions didn’t include the previous expansion as a bonus.

And stil they cost €50,- and still people where fine with it.

Vayne.8563:

maddoctor.2738:

Devata.6589:

Just as there were no big riots with the GW1 campaigns that also did coast the same.

GW1 expansions didn’t include the previous expansion as a bonus.

That’s true and it costs Anet and they know it. Anet said going into Guild Wars 2 they wouldn’t be using that system, because it divided the player base. That’s the reason for a lot of the design decisions Anet made in Guild Wars 2.

It’s such a strong thread running through their decisions that one can only assume that they consider the previous way it was done to be unsuccessful.

Yeah they indeed said they did not want to do standalone campaigns anymore because of these reasons. Not sure how this is relevant, but your right.

Vayne.8563:

FrizzFreston.5290:

There is no valid reason for the game to not have exclusive rewards. Other than personal preference.

Recognizing that in an MMO there’s millions of players, there’s millions of different opinions what they like or not like in the game. Which automatically means that parts of the game will not be for you, which means parts of the rewards will not be for you.

It’s up to ArenaNet to design the game or parts of the game for the players or parts of the players. The rewards are something earned through playing the game. They are however, not the game itself. As long as the game is open for everyone, then the rewards are open for everyone to get.

Getting a shortcut to a reward by opening it up to a flexible acquisition could mean the reward would get a totally different progression path, directing most players into that way. It’s basically teaching players to avoid the game and choose the easiest path. It would be a meaningless choice to make.

It’s very hard to have a reward that’s requires equal amounts of effort by an easy long route as well as a “shorter” more challenging route.

What could help, is to let people learn the challenging content better so that they feel more able to move through this content. Basically training them to become better at the type of content and showing them the ropes to a certain extend.

Some would say personal preference is a valid reason. lol

Hence I named it as a exception, clearly.

Anyway, back to the core.. I think for HoT they will need to put the best rewards behind specific (hard) content.

That creates horizontal end-game and sets goals for people, other then grind, grind, grind.

It simply is what imho this game needs most.

Devata.6589:

Anyway, back to the core.. I think for HoT I think they will need to put the best rewards behind specific (hard) content.

The next thing is how to also make those rewards available to those who can’t complete said content without invalidating the content completely.

maddoctor.2738:

Devata.6589:

Anyway, back to the core.. I think for HoT they will need to put the best rewards behind specific (hard) content.

The next thing is how to also make those rewards available to those who can’t complete said content without invalidating the content completely.

If you do that with most items (behind specific content), making some of them not account bound will be possible (so people have the option to grind for it) and for other items it would be best to have them account-bound. No need for everybody to be able to get everything by doing whatever.

maddoctor.2738:

Astralporing.1957:

It doesn’t have to be the same timeframe, you know. It just shouldn’t be excessively different.

The things is, you can’t have a timeframe with some types of content, I gave an example with Arah exclusive rewards also available in Cursed Shore events. You CANNOT have a timeframe with Arah runs, in 1 hour one group of players will run all 4 Arah paths, in 1 hour another group might only run Arah P4 and nothing else.

But you can. As i said, it doesn’t have to be equal, just not excessively different. For example, the current PvP Arah reward track seems mostly okay, even if it is significantly slower.

maddoctor.2738:

The same thing can be applied to the multiple ways of getting the rewards for challenging content. So how can 1 hour of challenging content compare to 1 hour of non challenging content?

Again, it doesn’t have to be 1:1 hour equivalency. It’s okay if non-challenging path takes longer, as long as the difference is not massive.

maddoctor.2738:

All I’m saying is to use what the lowest possible skilled player (but still able to finish it) can do in 1 hour as basis for it and not the best of the best pros. So in the Arah example, 1 hour of easy content should offer the same rewards as a single Arah P4 run (or even less because there are players who might take even 2 hours to finish it) and not the same rewards as the “pro” group that can do the whole of Arah in 1 hour.

Agreed here. Perhaps even more, because i think you are seriously overestimating non-pro players. 1 hour is still quite fast even for other, shorter Arah paths.
(Mind you, i’m not going here into discussion about whether Arah rewards are good for the time investment and difficulty, or should they be adjusted)

maddoctor.2738:

Putting goals behind intense repetitive content is exactly like working at a job (apologies to anyone working at a non-repetitive, fun and engaging job).

And putting goals behind challenging content that I have to bash my head against until I break the wall is also exactly like working at a job. Because it’s frustrating rather than fun.

maddoctor.2738:

Putting things outside poeple’s comfort zones sounds exactly like any video game.

Sounds like you play some crappy video games, then. Because being taken outside of my comfort zone doesn’t sound fun at all. It does sound like a job, though.

maddoctor.2738:

Sometimes I really get the idea that players who post on threads like this have never played video games.

Yeah, I am definitely getting that vibe from you. You’ve clearly never played a decent game in your life.

Fox.3469:

About let’s say 90% of jobs are basicly doing the same thing over and over. Even if there is variation to it. That is not taking you out of your comfort zone.

Doing work takes me out of my comfort zone, because work isn’t comfortable.

That’s why it’s work.

Astralporing.1957:

maddoctor.2738:

Astralporing.1957:

It doesn’t have to be the same timeframe, you know. It just shouldn’t be excessively different.

The things is, you can’t have a timeframe with some types of content, I gave an example with Arah exclusive rewards also available in Cursed Shore events. You CANNOT have a timeframe with Arah runs, in 1 hour one group of players will run all 4 Arah paths, in 1 hour another group might only run Arah P4 and nothing else.

But you can. As i said, it doesn’t have to be equal, just not excessively different. For example, the current PvP Arah reward track seems mostly okay, even if it is significantly slower.

maddoctor.2738:

The same thing can be applied to the multiple ways of getting the rewards for challenging content. So how can 1 hour of challenging content compare to 1 hour of non challenging content?

Again, it doesn’t have to be 1:1 hour equivalency. It’s okay if non-challenging path takes longer, as long as the difference is not massive.

maddoctor.2738:

All I’m saying is to use what the lowest possible skilled player (but still able to finish it) can do in 1 hour as basis for it and not the best of the best pros. So in the Arah example, 1 hour of easy content should offer the same rewards as a single Arah P4 run (or even less because there are players who might take even 2 hours to finish it) and not the same rewards as the “pro” group that can do the whole of Arah in 1 hour.

Agreed here. Perhaps even more, because i think you are seriously overestimating non-pro players. 1 hour is still quite fast even for other, shorter Arah paths.
(Mind you, i’m not going here into discussion about whether Arah rewards are good for the time investment and difficulty, or should they be adjusted)

I really hope this is what they choose to do in the end so we are all happy. Or at least as many people as possible.

Gene Archer.8560:

And putting goals behind challenging content that I have to bash my head against until I break the wall is also exactly like working at a job. Because it’s frustrating rather than fun.

When you bash your head on a wall because you can’t do something and try again until you get it, that’s what I do in almost all -good video games- I’ve ever played.

Sounds like you play some crappy video games, then. Because being taken outside of my comfort zone doesn’t sound fun at all. It does sound like a job, though.

Really? You’ve never played any part in a video where you actually lost a fight. You’ve never played an encounter in a video game that couldn’t get with your first few tries? And obviously you’ve never played a multiplayer game…

Yeah, I am definitely getting that vibe from you. You’ve clearly never played a decent game in your life.

Well of course I haven’t played many facebook games that require no skill or effort, or going outside my comfort zone to overcome certain difficulties. Now there is something to be said when someone is calling facebook games “decent”

maddoctor.2738:

When you bash your head on a wall because you can’t do something and try again until you get it, that’s what I do in almost all -good video games- I’ve ever played.

Then your life is clearly far too boring if you have to actively seek out stress. You might have a problem. You should probably see a shrink.

maddoctor.2738:

Really? You’ve never played any part in a video where you actually lost a fight. You’ve never played an encounter in a video game that couldn’t get with your first few tries? And obviously you’ve never played a
multiplayer game…

Of course I’ve played all of those.

But the challenge wasn’t what decided what was fun for me. Challenge doesn’t automatically equate to fun. I’ve played hardcore mode + mods on FONV and had fun and then played Minecraft on peaceful and had just as much fun.

You’re clearly too far hung up on proving you’re some kind of video game tough guy.

maddoctor.2738:

Well of course I haven’t played many facebook games that require no skill or effort, or going outside my comfort zone to overcome certain difficulties.

Ah yes. The facebook game argument.

That strawman tells me all I need to know. You don’t want challenging content. You want exclusive content that only you can do so you can lord it over the lowly plebians.

Please just be honest, next time.

maddoctor.2738:

Now there is something to be said when someone is calling facebook games “decent”

I don’t recall calling facebook games decent, but hey, thanks for showing your true colors at the end there.

Gene Archer.8560:

Then your life is clearly far too boring if you have to actively seek out stress. You might have a problem. You should probably see a shrink.

I’m actively seeking challenge because I find that challenge can be fun.

Of course I’ve played all of those.

If you did play them then you would know what you are saying in your last few posts is meaningless. Why did you play a game if it was beyond your comfort zone (win zone) and required you to put some extra effort in overcoming the difficulties presented to you?

But the challenge wasn’t what decided what was fun for me. Challenge doesn’t automatically equate to fun. I’ve played hardcore mode + mods on FONV and had fun and then played Minecraft on peaceful and had just as much fun.

Then why did you play a challenging game if it wasn’t for fun? So you play games for other things than fun? Are you playing games for a job? Or you have some weird desire to punish yourself to play challenging games that you find un-fun. I also play un-challenging games that I find fun, otherwise I wouldn’t be playing Guild Wars 2 in the first place. Challenge = fun when did I say that? Only that there is FUN to be found in challenges… seriously

I don’t recall calling facebook games decent, but hey, thanks for showing your true colors at the end there.

The only genres I don’t really play are sports games and facebook games, you said I haven’t played a decent game, so it’s fitting that you are calling facebook games decent (and sports games) since everything else (that I play) is crappy. Your words not mine.

This is getting completely off topic though and if you want to think that challenge = work I’ll just disagree and say that grind = work, not the other way around.

Astralporing.1957:

Coulter.2315:

Sorry so just so we’re all clear YOU believe that humans cannot adapt or improve and are frozen in time.. You must have been an impressive 2 yr old, disappointing now though…

Of course they can. Remember though, that if the average skills of the player population will rise high enough that a majority of players will be able to complete the Challenging Content™, the same players that are asking for it now will start asking for something even harder, because that content will in their eyes become casual, no longer worthy to be called a challenge.

In short, any content that eventually will be able to be finished by an average player is not what Challenging Content proposers are asking for, and is not something that will be considered challenging for too long. And those people that ask for exclusive rewards, will want those rewards to stay exclusive. That means, again, them being locked behind a content that most people won’t be able to do

We’re asking for 2 things simultaneously, 1. the base difficulty of open world to be increased (basicly asking that the beta difficulty certainly isn’t nerf’d) for a more engaging and exciting expansion area to explore, 2. for harder group content with good rewards for completion.

The open world is there to stretch the average player to improve and any who then get a taste for harder content can then move on to the “challenging group content” with friends etc.

Ohoni.6057:

No one is pvping because anet added dung armor as a reward (a really slow way to even get dung armor anyways)
I would still be PvPing with or without dung reward tracks…that is not a UNIQUE reward for PvPing.. its just a bit of an extra

So the same philosophy applies, if a player wants to get a dungeon armor, but has no interest in playing that dungeon, OR in PvP, then why not give them the option to progress a “PvE reward track” that progresses based on PvE experience gains? Or why not allow them to convert tokens from one dungeon into tokens from another at a rate of maybe 2:1? Or why not allow open world content in the region around the dungeon to also reward those dungeon tokens? Why not all of the above, and let people play the way that they’d prefer to play?

The real progression is in going for champion x profession titles, ranking up for new finishers, etc, and just your personal skill cap in general…
Thankfully leagues are coming into play for progressing towards something actually worthwhile (legendary backpeice)

Look, if they want to add more “unique progression” elements to PvE, by which “elite” PvE players can earn unique titles, unique leaderboards, some sort of emote to show off that they are so much better than the other players (if for no other reason than to give those other players a good laugh), then that’s perfectly fine. Do that. But don’t tie it in to unique skins/minis/etc. that have their own intrinsic value.

You say now that because most of the rewards have a multitude of ways to get them all of the content “should” have that. But earlier you denied the argument of someone saying that because there’s exclusive rewards for some of the content that there is also room for that type of rewards.

I’m saying that the right thing to do is the right thing to do, regardless of precedent, but for those that care about precedent, there is precedent.

Didn’t you say before “all paths” should be able to lead to these rewards?

When I say this, people who fundamentally disagree with me tend to resort to strawman arguments, like “well then you should be able to get Legendaries by just chatting with friends in LA, right?” which is never my intent.

When I say “all paths,” I’m talking “all reasonable content,” all content that already provides a reasonable level of reward. I can agree with those that say that some of the current paths are a bit too easy, but ANet are the ones that say those methods should offer significant rewards. If they believe those are content worth rewarding, then I believe they should be content worth providing any sorts of rewards you’re aiming for. If they are not content worth providing any sorts of rewards, then they should not offer any significant rewards, or should be tightened up to be worthy of those rewards.

So TL;DR, so long as ANet chooses to support Silverwastes farming as a viable reward mechanism, it should allow access to all types of rewards, but I do not personally advocate that it should remain a viable reward mechanism.

Any good game changes things up. If everything stays the same the game becomes boring. With this in mind, it would mean to both to support SW farming as well as unique rewards in other areas of the game. If one thing in the game gives access to all the rewards in the long run it’s not a very good game. It is necessary to have that incentive outside of the comfortzone of the players, otherwise the players get used to the prospect of doing everything the same way they always did.

Its likely one of the biggest reasons SAB is so well received. It changed things up. Something to think about is that the rewards may have intrinsic value, but doesn’t mean the game is designed around that.

You already agree that a reward should be behind a challenge. But you can’t challenge the player if you don’t provide new experiences.

All this thread is is fear in the face of that challenge. If anything it proves that players are too stuck in their farming ways and that the game needs to provide something different to keep things interesting.

Hence I said that the challenges need to be paced well for people to enjoy it. Especially if it’s something completely new like raids.

maddoctor.2738:

I’m actively seeking challenge because I find that challenge can be fun.

Okay, and let’s say ANet puts in all that challenging content but that it winds up not being fun? What if it winds up being even more of a grind than the “easy” content?

At that point, HoT is a waste of an expansion for everyone.

And aside from that, who’s idea of “challenge” do we go based off? Yours? Why? What makes you the arbiter of what is challenging and what is not? And what happens when you expend HoT’s challenging content and need something even more challenging, while the majority of players are still struggling with HoT and below? Should ANet then make the next expansion even harder and leave people in the dust so only the best of the best are able to enjoy the game?

Because keep in mind, from what we’ve been shown so far, ANet isn’t quartering off the content in it’s own little area like Fractals. They’re making it the meat of the open world where the overwhelming majority of content takes place.

maddoctor.2738:

Then why did you play a challenging game if it wasn’t for fun?

Because the game had other qualities aside from challenge that I found fun? Like a compelling story that I just had to see to the end? Or really good mechanics? Or in the case of multiplayer stuff, because I was playing with friends and we were dinking around?

maddoctor.2738:

So you play games for other things than fun? Are you playing games for a job?

Dear god I wish. My job would possibly be fun, then.

maddoctor.2738:

Challenge = fun when did I say that?

You’re in this thread saying the game needs challenging content. Why would you say that if you didn’t think challenge = fun?

Oh, right. Because you actually want challenging content for the exclusivity factor. Sorry, I forgot.

maddoctor.2738:

Only that there is FUN to be found in challenges… seriously

In other words, challenge = fun.

maddoctor.2738:

The only genres I don’t really play are sports games and facebook games, you said I haven’t played a decent game, so it’s fitting that you are calling facebook games decent (and sports games) since everything else (that I play) is crappy. Your words not mine.

I was merely turning your flippant and uncalled for comment around on you. But now I realize I was far too subtle for you, seeing as you took it to an entirely different level.

But honestly? Facebook games can actually be decent. All depends on how they’re made.

maddoctor.2738:

This is getting completely off topic though and if you want to think that challenge = work I’ll just disagree and say that grind = work, not the other way around.

It’s perfectly on topic. The thread is about hard mode and challenging content. We’re talking about that. Don’t make excuses if you don’t want to continue, just say you’re bowing out.

IndigoSundown.5419:

Neither side is being noble, expansive or inclusive. There is no way to give both sides what they want, because their desires are diametrically opposed. The only way to move forward in situations like that is to compromise by having some rewards that can be gained in multiple ways, and some that require completion of certain content.

ANet already knows this. That’s why we have a mix of reward availability in the game and are likely to see the same going forward. However, they also need to keep a couple of other things in mind.

• More players wanting to play different aspects of GW2 is good for the longevity of the game. ANet uses rewards to push participation. I see no signs they will stop doing this, so I expect there will continue to be rewards used for that purpose.

I’m not so blinded by my desire to believe I’m being selfless, I just wanted him to acknowledge he wasn’t being either. Giving everyone something they may not have asked for or even wanted to get that way is not a selfless act.
I like the phase diametrically opposed I actually used it in a similar argument with the op a few months back.

I’m open to compromise, something along the lines of the silverwastes system (the theory not the implemented version which has been the single most damaging thing done to making content feel rewarding since the PvP change.)

For example:
hard/challenge content A:
-Has unique tradeable standard drops (chest drops).
-Has an ultra rare tradeable drop (like the queen bee)
-Has a do the content at least once reward (carapace armor)
-Has a much harder (maybe achievement linked) reward that likely requires several play throughs with additional requirements/skill displays (Luminescent, ideally with no achievement buying possible)
-Has an ultra rare account bound drop (ala fractal tonic, RNG is not my favorite thing but some people enjoy chasing the white whale).

This way:
Player 1: who doesn’t interact with the new content at all gets 40% of it.
Player 2: who trys the content fully once but does not enjoy it gets 60-80% of it.
Player 3: who the content was designed for gets 80-100% of it.
No ones perfectly happy with the outcome but everyone has benefited from that content being implemented.

I see one problem, the rewards for the achievements and doing it are going to involve skins, which op is vehemently against. But realistically is the system the game already uses.

I also want to say, that personal desire aside I genuinely believe that the tiered and content specific system is needed to keep people interested. I do not believe that 6 months down the line players would be happy with a uniform distribution system.

Gene Archer.8560:

I’m actively seeking challenge because I find that challenge can be fun.

Okay, and let’s say ANet puts in all that challenging content but that it winds up not being fun? What if it winds up being even more of a grind than the “easy” content?

Then it fails. The idea of challenging content is to put rewards that don’t require heavy grind or RNG, in a sense exchanging them for challenge. If it is way more challenging than other content AND has the same RNG as other content then it doesn’t have any kind of reason to exist as content. That’s why I don’t want the rewards from it to be put on the market, items on market usually mean RNG.

Should ANet then make the next expansion even harder and leave people in the dust so only the best of the best are able to enjoy the game?

Since I’m not the best of the best if they base their challenge on me I expect most people to be fine. If by harder means players needing to use their skillbars effectively then yes I expect them to continue making the game harder and harder. That is actually normal because companies want to push the boundaries of their systems and mechanics and GW2 in PVE has barely even scratched the surface of the depth available with the GW2 mechanics. If by harder you mean mobs with even more hit points and more damage then I HOPE not. Challenge us with tricks and abilities not hit points and damage.

Because keep in mind, from what we’ve been shown so far, ANet isn’t quartering off the content in it’s own little area like Fractals. They’re making it the meat of the open world where the overwhelming majority of content takes place.

I REALLY HOPE their Challenging Group Content has absolutely NOTHING to do with the Open World.

Oh, right. Because you actually want challenging content for the exclusivity factor. Sorry, I forgot.

I myself proposed a way to allow as many people as possible to get the rewards that are behind the challenging group content and I thought the thread already moved towards finding the ideal spot for that and not continue going in circles. If I wanted exclusive rewards why did I give out ways of making said items available to players who can’t do the content? I’m confused here.

It’s perfectly on topic. The thread is about hard mode and challenging content. We’re talking about that. Don’t make excuses if you don’t want to continue, just say you’re bowing out.

Not really. Check the OP again about the topic title.

It’s not about challenging content in general, or if it will be good to add or not in the game. We’ve passed that point when the devs announced that it IS coming and I doubt any forum threads or posts are going to change it. There is no turning back, Challenging Group Content IS COMING. Talking about the merits or not of that type of content is off topic.

What is all about is how the rewards for said content is going to be. Exclusive, available for gold, available from multiple sources, grind, rng, and any other distribution system. I’ve already expressed my own ideas on that subject and found many people that agree with me. What’s your opinion on the actual topic?

maddoctor.2738:

What’s your opinion on the actual topic?

All rewards should be available to everyone in some manner through doing content they enjoy.

If you want ideas?

ANet should be using karma for more. If you want to have challenging content for guaranteed drops, fine. But make those same drops also available through karma. Make it so karma is awarded from all content.

Holiday events should be handled more akin to FF14. That game seems to have a good handle on balancing the grind required to achieve holiday rewards, as opposed to say, how ANet handled the second Halloween.

What I want this game to avoid above all else is to become another WoW where only the top tier of the top tier are allowed to have the nice things. They want to be recognized for their efforts? Give them titles. Give them special portrait borders. Give them leaderboards. But don’t shower them in pets/skins/mounts/what have you.

People should be able to get the things they want in the game doing content that they find fun. A dev team that has to actively bribe their playerbase to do content has made shoddy content. That is what I believe.

Gene Archer.8560:

maddoctor.2738:

. But the answer is not because I don’t like it but because I want to play a video game, not work at a job. Not all rewards should be available within everyone’s comfort zone.

Call me crazy, but taking goals and putting them outside of people’s comfort zones sounds -exactly- like working at a job.

Actually job verity (I.E being expected to preform a large number of different tasks rather than a monotonous task), Is seen as one of the major steps at getting people motivated and involved with what they’re doing. It gives them a feeling agency and responsibility, they’re not a drone they’re a valued person. People would kill for a job like that.

I agree with Maddoctor anyway, monotony seems more job like that verity, even that outside the comfort zone.
________________________________________________________________
This gave me the idea of applying business theories to the game though:

If we look at Vroom’s expectancy theory and apply it to the game we’d see that people value a reward earned more than a reward given. (on the Effort step there should be an alternative arrow with unacceptable performance , not being rewarded then resulting in improvement in the hopes of acceptable performance).

Or if we look at the older Maslow’s hierarchy of needs (http://steveroesler.typepad.com/.a/6a00d8341c500653ef0128779b9b12970c-pi)
We can see an overlap in the desires, the second highest step , the desire for prestige and feeling of accomplishment is very prevalent in MMO’s, and challenging content ties into the top step of Self-actualization, having to use the full extent of your abilities. The third highest step could be seen as equivalent to wanting a guild/party.

Before anyone starts shouting at me for the whole job comparison do remember that a job is a series of tasks with a set of rules that if completed will result in reward. While a game (at least theme park games) is a set of tasks within a set of rules where completion results in reward. They aren’t that different.

Gene Archer.8560:

maddoctor.2738:

What’s your opinion on the actual topic?

All rewards should be available to everyone in some manner through doing content they enjoy.

So like many of the rewards now (where gold has been the way to achieve this), what results in all the grind and has been imho the main issue for the game during the last 2,5 year.

no, if they want to hold the people they scared away before, they need to get this right with HoT, and then they have to do it different this time around.

I wanna thank, Vayne, Devata, Maddoctor and probally some others i’m forgetting for a good discussion on the topic. But these last few pages aren’t constructive anymore, saying someone should see a shrink cause he enjoys other stuff then yourself. That’s where i draw the line, all has been said on this topic and i feel at this point we are just feeding a few trolls who are coming in to upset people. See ya.

Devata.6589:

So like many of the rewards now (where gold has been the way to achieve this), what results in all the grind and has been imho the main issue for the game during the last 2,5 year.

So then don’t make it a grind.

You’re blaming the wrong part. The problem isn’t that everything is attained with gold. The problem is that to attain anything with gold in a decent timeframe, you can only do a certain subset of content because that’s the only content that rewards enough gold to get anywhere, because if you reward too much gold you eventually reach hyper inflation in the marketplace. This in turn leads to the grind problem, because currently people can’t do the content they want if they also want to ever obtain the items they’re after before they are old and grey unless that content is a specific set of dungeon runs or Silver Wastes.

ANet didn’t utilize karma to its full potential as the secondary currency to obtain things.

Vayne.8563:

SkiTz.4590:

Torolan.5816:

SkiTz.4590:

Where do you get your assumptions from?
harder means less ppl doing it? what The ppl wanting hardcore pve content either quit the game LONG time ago OR moved into spvp/wvw where its usually not a braindead auto attack spam game like you have now…
less ppl do it because they FIND IT BORING.. thats why anet is bringing in endgame progression/content…. because of evident it was that this game was lacking it…

I don´t really understand how this can be even in question? Even if that probably baffles you, most people don´t want to spend their game time in the same dungeon, the adrenaline rush gets very quickly replaced by the feeling of being tired of failing at the same spot, or a variety of different spots.
I am a fairly stubborn player, but simply gave up at some point to obtain Lumi Armor because of the grindy and unforgiven nature of LS2 .Yes, stuff can both be grindy and unforgiven at once. If I did not luckily have a “pro player” in my guild, I would probably only have a few of them instead of at least a majority of them because I could not be kitten d to enter them again.

Sounds like a personal problem… Its not anets problem or anyone else that you are too stubborn and give up easily and rely on others to carry you… You give up but you still want the reward….sounds reasonable…

That’s where you’re wrong. If there are enough people like Torolan than it is absolutely Anet’s problem because enough people being frustrated isn’t good for the game either.

Let’s say there are 15% of the people who absolutely love hard content and want something really hard t sink their teeth into. If there are 25% of the playerbase frustrated by the content, then there are more people unhappy than happy at the changes.

Well wait, I hear you say. They don’t have to play my content and I don’t have to play their content. That’s true. But if those same people who are already frustrated see rewards that they either can’t have, or rewards that the game is telling them they’re not entitled to because they’re not good enough or not willing to work harder at playing, those people will leave.

In my opinion, it is absolutely Anet’s problem which group is bigger and how changes made to the game will affect the populous and by extension it becomes all our problems.

So you’re essentially saying there will be a mass exodus of players since the majority aren’t “good” enough to complete the unknown challenging content…. right…..
No player quits a great game simple because they couldn’t achieve an award…I haven’t gotten any closer to a precursor or frac wep skin since the day I started over 2 years ago. That frustrated me. Did I quit? NO. Because this is a MMORPG. Theres more to it than getting a couple freaking rewards…

Big deal if you can’t beat the new challenging content and get the rewards.
You realize there is a plethora of other things to do as well right? You seriously going to say a big population of ppl will be quitting since they couldn’t get a certain unique reward lol??? Will there be frustrated ppl? yea, what MMORPG doesn’t have frustrated ppl that can’t achieve a certain reward? thats common. But to assume they will be quitting is delusional.
You going to be unhappy about 1 part of the expansion but rest of it is great, yet you think ppl will quit because of that 1 part? really? Ok, we’ll have to wait and see lol.

Gene Archer.8560:

Devata.6589:

So like many of the rewards now (where gold has been the way to achieve this), what results in all the grind and has been imho the main issue for the game during the last 2,5 year.

So then don’t make it a grind.

You’re blaming the wrong part. The problem isn’t that everything is attained with gold. The problem is that to attain anything with gold in a decent timeframe, you can only do a certain subset of content because that’s the only content that rewards enough gold to get anywhere, because if you reward too much gold you eventually reach hyper inflation in the marketplace. This in turn leads to the grind problem, because currently people can’t do the content they want if they also want to ever obtain the items they’re after before they are old and grey unless that content is a specific set of dungeon runs or Silver Wastes.

ANet didn’t utilize karma to its full potential as the secondary currency to obtain things.

Actually ArenaNet moved away from Karma because it’s universally available and moved and is moving towards a design (with the map rewards) with different currencies, so that people only do the specific map for a specific reward, rather than just moving to the one area that yields the most amount of gold in the shortest amount of time.

And that will not change by balancing the contents rewards, because people will still pick the fastest content or content closest to the bank or whichever is fastest. Or in the case of optimal balance, the whole game world becomes universally dull.

Variation is the key to an interesting game, not only in game world, but also gameplay and game difficulty. Putting a reward behind a seemingly "impossible"or “punishing task” is only as much as the guidance through that content.

That is likely why they improved the new player experience, in order to teach people better about builds and guide them to a higher skill level easier. (Even though some of us, including me, still find the NPE less engaging as it was before)

Fox.3469:

Why is fun and challenge opposite to eachother? Basicly anyone who play sports in a competition, or even recreational, challenge themselves to become better at it. And it’s not always easy. So why would people enjoy it in your logic?

It has to do with stress. If one is constantly seeking to challenge oneself, that type of interaction with a game produces chemical changes in the body, not the least of which is the release of adrenaline. Active sports like football, basketball, etc. also produces chemical changes, but the body is both producing and using those changes more efficiently due to the active nature of the sport. If one is stressed from work, has high blood pressure, etc. one’s goal in playing may be more along the lines of relaxing by killing some stuff and becoming immersed to de-stress, not generating added stress via hard content.

There’s more to it, but that’s going to be a factor for some people.

SkiTz.4590:

No player quits a great game simple because they couldn’t achieve an award…

Good. Then we can safely skip giving any unique rewards for challenging content. After all, nobody’s gonna quit because of that.

Astralporing.1957:

Sykper.6583:

A skin’s merit (not its look) is diminished the more alternatives to achieving it there are.

No. Skin’s merit lies in its look. What you are talking is skin’s exclusivity, which is a separate thing, even if it’s tied to the same object. A skin looks equally good (or bad) regardless if it’s a common drop or is something only one person in the game can have. It’s bragging value does diminish with introducing more alternatives, but it’s completely independent from the skin itself (after all, exclusivity is in no way dependant on how the object looks like).

SkiTz.4590:

Clearly anet is not listening to you.
Other wise some skins wouldn’t be outrageously more pricey than other.

No, it’s exactly opposite. If you were right, then every precursor would cost about the same. Instead, their prices differ wildly, which suggests that there are other, more important factors than rarity that influence their worth.

Coulter.2315:

Sorry so just so we’re all clear YOU believe that humans cannot adapt or improve and are frozen in time.. You must have been an impressive 2 yr old, disappointing now though…

Of course they can. Remember though, that if the average skills of the player population will rise high enough that a majority of players will be able to complete the Challenging Content™, the same players that are asking for it now will start asking for something even harder, because that content will in their eyes become casual, no longer worthy to be called a challenge.

In short, any content that eventually will be able to be finished by an average player is not what Challenging Content proposers are asking for, and is not something that will be considered challenging for too long. And those people that ask for exclusive rewards, will want those rewards to stay exclusive. That means, again, them being locked behind a content that most people won’t be able to do.

laokoko.7403:

Take for example, while I like the fractal skins, I think chaos skins look much better.

And i think exactly opposite. I know that if it was the chaos skins that were dropping in fractals, i wouldn’t care for them even one bit.

you really dont understand people who want challenge, i think you are confusing it with people who want fame/respect.

its not the same thing. People who like challenge want it because it is the most entertaining thing to them. Because content that is too simple bores them.

for example, why doesnt a master pianist play marry has a little lamb, because its too simple and boring. Why do people want to play the best team when they go to the basketball court? they may lose.

now you may say, then rewards dont matter, sorry but thats not really true. Especially in a game that gives out rewards, once rewards start being given out, you alter the behavior of people.

this is why exclusive content is a good idea. not just for high end, but for many types of game type. Otherwise all actions but the most profitable are considered wastes of time by most.

One question. How will few raids or fractals or whatever with hard to get and unique rewards (check “Mini Llama”, “Mistforged Hero’s weapons” and “Luminescent armor” if you thing that this is new for gw2) turn this casual friendly mmo in to a “hardcore or gtfo” hell?

Astralporing.1957:

SkiTz.4590:

No player quits a great game simple because they couldn’t achieve an award…

Good. Then we can safely skip giving any unique rewards for challenging content. After all, nobody’s gonna quit because of that.

unique rewards for different types of play helps the game. If rewards are non unique, then the most effecient method of aquisition will destroy other methods.

there is way too much of that happening in many facets of the game.

Unique rewards assure people can have a decent reward for engaging in different types of play, non unique means that the most effecient wins.
not only that but unique rewards reduces grind. If an item has 1000 different sources, then they must balance the influx based on every possible source. With fewer sources they can reduce the grind to achieve the goal.

IndigoSundown.5419:

Fox.3469:

Why is fun and challenge opposite to eachother? Basicly anyone who play sports in a competition, or even recreational, challenge themselves to become better at it. And it’s not always easy. So why would people enjoy it in your logic?

It has to do with stress. If one is constantly seeking to challenge oneself, that type of interaction with a game produces chemical changes in the body, not the least of which is the release of adrenaline. Active sports like football, basketball, etc. also produces chemical changes, but the body is both producing and using those changes more efficiently due to the active nature of the sport. If one is stressed from work, has high blood pressure, etc. one’s goal in playing may be more along the lines of relaxing by killing some stuff and becoming immersed to de-stress, not generating added stress via hard content.

There’s more to it, but that’s going to be a factor for some people.

some people relieve stress through challenge. some people get more stressed, there is no hard and fast rule for stress relief.
the game has more than enough easy, having both easy and hard wont be a bad thing at all.