Some people don't like hard mode

Some people don't like hard mode

in Guild Wars 2: Heart of Thorns

Posted by: maddoctor.2738

maddoctor.2738

This is what Colin said in an interview on Tentonhammer:

Ten Ton Hammer: Guild Wars 2 isn’t known for being a challenging game and rival products such as WildStar that pushed a hardcore agenda struggled to retain players. Why have you decided to now implement more challenging content with Heart Of Thorns?

Colin: […] So why more challenging content now? Simply put – it’s what our players have been asking for – and we agree with them that it will make Guild Wars 2 a deeper and more compelling game experience. We don’t have issues retaining players, and we think providing more content they are excited about will only be better for us in the long run.

/Thread

Why do you believe that lie (the bolded part)? ANet has NEVER asked any of their players ingame what they want!!

In that interview Colin just asserts that the players want more challenging content because HE/ANet wants it. It’s PR bullkitten.

ANet doesn’t know what players want because they never ask them.

They asked for feedback over their “harder” content numerous times now. Feedback on SAB TM, feedback on the new Tequatl, Triple Trouble. They’ve asked for feedback over the new more challenging mobs in Verdnat Brink. They’ve asked numerous times, there has been a CDI on raiding with 1700 replies.

They asked players what they want more than once. They got feedback and now the respond.

Some people don't like hard mode

in Guild Wars 2: Heart of Thorns

Posted by: Kashrlyyk.5364

Kashrlyyk.5364

….

You talked about “Why there are different difficulties?” and I talked about “What’s the effect of higher difficulties on player options?”.

Completely different things.

Snow.2048: Your post agrees with me even though you want to disagree.

Shields are not meant to face tank, they are means of quick damage reduction to help you if you screw up a dodge

No, if you screw up a dodge in DS 2 you get hit. You can not lift the shield fast enough to block after a wrong dodge.

Some people don't like hard mode

in Guild Wars 2: Heart of Thorns

Posted by: maddoctor.2738

maddoctor.2738

….

You talked about “Why there are different difficulties?” and I talked about “What’s the effect of higher difficulties on player options?”.

Completely different things.

Higher difficulty gives more options for players who want it. It allows players to master a given content and become better at it.

Some people don't like hard mode

in Guild Wars 2: Heart of Thorns

Posted by: Kashrlyyk.5364

Kashrlyyk.5364

….

They asked for feedback over their “harder” content numerous times now. Feedback on SAB TM, feedback on the new Tequatl, Triple Trouble. They’ve asked for feedback over the new more challenging mobs in Verdnat Brink. They’ve asked numerous times, there has been a CDI on raiding with 1700 replies.

They asked players what they want more than once. They got feedback and now the respond.

1700 replies? How many are from the same person? And compared to the population of GW2 what percentage of the ENTIRE player base answered? So NO they did not ask the players, the asked probably the smallest subset of the playerbase and now claim they know what ALL of them want.

Again they have NEVER asked ALL the players!!! Because for that they would have to add a popup ingame to inform the players that they want their opinion and they NEVER did that.

Some people don't like hard mode

in Guild Wars 2: Heart of Thorns

Posted by: Fox.3469

Fox.3469

People are fond of comparing this game to Guild Wars 1. There was very little in Guild Wars 1 that couldn’t be purchased with gold. Arguably, the hardest weapons to attain were the weapons from DOA, or maybe rare stuff like the celestial compass, the bonecage scythe, the frog scepter or the voltaic spear.

All these high end items were available to sell. You didn’t have to be great to get them. You could farm feathers in a low end zone over and over till you could afford to purchase them.

No one in Guild Wars 1 seemed that riled that their rewards weren’t exclusive. It allowed players who wanted challenge to do challenging content and profit. It allowed less intense players to have the rewards.

I think this is the best solution all the way around.

To those who support those hard core rewards, I guarantee you if there are enough rewards casual players can’t get, you won’t have enough players left to continue running the game. Casuals, in my opinion, make a vast percentage of the playerbase. The more you put out of their reach, the more of them you lose.

I agree with this sentiment completely.

The guy who gets the super rare drop can hold onto it or get rich by selling it. Either way he is greatly rewarded for participating in the content that produced the drop. Meanwhile the player who doesn’t care for content X can farm content Y to finance his purchase of the item. Its a win/win.

Except it’s not. The top 1% will find a way to farm the hardcore content, they always do. As more people learn it more people will farm it. And this will eventually make the best way to aquire the item, to farm gold instead of doing the content.

Just think about it. If you could sell dungeon armor on the trading post, not only would it totally discourage anyone but the farmers from doing any dungeons but the speedpaths, it would completely destroy the value of any crafted exotic armor pieces on the market.

“Win/win” Yeah right

If you are looking for a cozy mature Dutch guild (EU) let me know.

(edited by Fox.3469)

Some people don't like hard mode

in Guild Wars 2: Heart of Thorns

Posted by: maddoctor.2738

maddoctor.2738

….

They asked for feedback over their “harder” content numerous times now. Feedback on SAB TM, feedback on the new Tequatl, Triple Trouble. They’ve asked for feedback over the new more challenging mobs in Verdnat Brink. They’ve asked numerous times, there has been a CDI on raiding with 1700 replies.

They asked players what they want more than once. They got feedback and now the respond.

1700 replies? How many are from the same person? And compared to the population of GW2 what percentage of the ENTIRE player base answered? So NO they did not ask the players, the asked probably the smallest subset of the playerbase and now claim they know what ALL of them want.

Again they have NEVER asked ALL the players!!! Because for that they would have to add a popup ingame to inform the players that they want their opinion and they NEVER did that.

What did you expect them to ask in that popup? “Do you want more challenging content? YES/NO”?

There are things you can do with in-game popup and things you cannot. Asking for feedback is their best option and that’s what they did. They got feedback, now they respond to it.

Some people don't like hard mode

in Guild Wars 2: Heart of Thorns

Posted by: maddoctor.2738

maddoctor.2738

People are fond of comparing this game to Guild Wars 1. There was very little in Guild Wars 1 that couldn’t be purchased with gold. Arguably, the hardest weapons to attain were the weapons from DOA, or maybe rare stuff like the celestial compass, the bonecage scythe, the frog scepter or the voltaic spear.

All these high end items were available to sell. You didn’t have to be great to get them. You could farm feathers in a low end zone over and over till you could afford to purchase them.

No one in Guild Wars 1 seemed that riled that their rewards weren’t exclusive. It allowed players who wanted challenge to do challenging content and profit. It allowed less intense players to have the rewards.

I think this is the best solution all the way around.

To those who support those hard core rewards, I guarantee you if there are enough rewards casual players can’t get, you won’t have enough players left to continue running the game. Casuals, in my opinion, make a vast percentage of the playerbase. The more you put out of their reach, the more of them you lose.

I agree with this sentiment completely.

The guy who gets the super rare drop can hold onto it or get rich by selling it. Either way he is greatly rewarded for participating in the content that produced the drop. Meanwhile the player who doesn’t care for content X can farm content Y to finance his purchase of the item. Its a win/win.

Except it’s not. The top 1% will find a way to farm the hardcore content, they always do. As more people learn it more people will farm it. And this will eventually make the best way to aquire the item, to farm gold instead of doing the content.

Just think about it. If you could sell dungeon armor on the trading post, not only would it totally discourage anyone but the farmers from doing any dungeons but the speedpaths, it would completely destroy the value of any crafted exotic armor pieces on the market.

“Win/win” Yeah right

That’s why putting all rewards on the market is a horrible idea.

Some people don't like hard mode

in Guild Wars 2: Heart of Thorns

Posted by: Devata.6589

Devata.6589

….

They asked for feedback over their “harder” content numerous times now. Feedback on SAB TM, feedback on the new Tequatl, Triple Trouble. They’ve asked for feedback over the new more challenging mobs in Verdnat Brink. They’ve asked numerous times, there has been a CDI on raiding with 1700 replies.

They asked players what they want more than once. They got feedback and now the respond.

1700 replies? How many are from the same person? And compared to the population of GW2 what percentage of the ENTIRE player base answered? So NO they did not ask the players, the asked probably the smallest subset of the playerbase and now claim they know what ALL of them want.

Again they have NEVER asked ALL the players!!! Because for that they would have to add a popup ingame to inform the players that they want their opinion and they NEVER did that.

By putting the CDI about it on the forum, they give everybody the possibility to give their opinion about it.. so yes they asked everybody.. Not everybody answered.

Some people don't like hard mode

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Posted by: Devata.6589

Devata.6589

People are fond of comparing this game to Guild Wars 1. There was very little in Guild Wars 1 that couldn’t be purchased with gold. Arguably, the hardest weapons to attain were the weapons from DOA, or maybe rare stuff like the celestial compass, the bonecage scythe, the frog scepter or the voltaic spear.

All these high end items were available to sell. You didn’t have to be great to get them. You could farm feathers in a low end zone over and over till you could afford to purchase them.

No one in Guild Wars 1 seemed that riled that their rewards weren’t exclusive. It allowed players who wanted challenge to do challenging content and profit. It allowed less intense players to have the rewards.

I think this is the best solution all the way around.

To those who support those hard core rewards, I guarantee you if there are enough rewards casual players can’t get, you won’t have enough players left to continue running the game. Casuals, in my opinion, make a vast percentage of the playerbase. The more you put out of their reach, the more of them you lose.

I agree with this sentiment completely.

The guy who gets the super rare drop can hold onto it or get rich by selling it. Either way he is greatly rewarded for participating in the content that produced the drop. Meanwhile the player who doesn’t care for content X can farm content Y to finance his purchase of the item. Its a win/win.

Except it’s not. The top 1% will find a way to farm the hardcore content, they always do. As more people learn it more people will farm it. And this will eventually make the best way to aquire the item, to farm gold instead of doing the content.

Just think about it. If you could sell dungeon armor on the trading post, not only would it totally discourage anyone but the farmers from doing any dungeons but the speedpaths, it would completely destroy the value of any crafted exotic armor pieces on the market.

“Win/win” Yeah right

That really depends on how you design the game. Currently you are completely right, but if most, if not all good rewards are behind specific content this will be way less.

People can’t all start farming this one item that cost so much to earn money, because as soon as they do that the price of the item will drop.. Will people find ways to simply get high numbers of gold directly, then you will get inflation meaning the gold will be worth less.

So in that case, going directly for the reward is almost always the most efficient way.

Now, don’t get me wrong, I am still in favor of also having account-bound items. Just wanted to show that just the fact that items are not account-bound does not mean they will automatically be fairly easy to get with grinding while hard to get directly from the game.

Some people don't like hard mode

in Guild Wars 2: Heart of Thorns

Posted by: Draco.9480

Draco.9480

That’s why people shouldn’t play any game at all if they don’t like hard mode. Did you come to spam auto attack and get the same reward in the same time as an expert? I’m not buying this. Good players should be rewarded and bad players should be wiped without nothing cry, break their head a bit and come back to try again if not then they should uninstall the game. Players without skill should learn how to play instead whine “it’s hard nerf nerf plz”. People that don’t invest time or energy to play shouldn’t play from the start and to stop crying why it’s hard. The strong survive, simple nature in everywhere in this corrupted world and there’ll never be a balance between strong and weak.

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Posted by: Kao.5412

Kao.5412

I do not agree at all with this. If a person completes a hard challenge he needs to be rewarded for it. we all know the stats would not be changed as thats how the game is , but skins or titles is a must. the game as is , is ridiculously easy to play, as of now there is no such content that is hard. Even fractals needs to be reworked because the AI of npcs is really low. Of course people are allowed to play casually but dont expect to get the same reward as a person who is putting his skills to beat a hard content..

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Posted by: Sykper.6583

Sykper.6583

I still don’t understand this resistance towards ‘harder content’ coming out.

Did every “casual” player quit the game at release when they couldn’t figure out how to beat a certain skill-point or do AC Story for the first time? How about Orr Events where you really needed to group up to go fight the Priest of Baltazar?

Stop being intimidated by the thought of having to learn new mechanics, or needing to make opportunities to press 100b. Or learning to dodge!

Suicidal Warrior.
Putting Perspective on Zerg Sizes since 2012. Common Suffixes for 40+ include ~Zilla and ~Train
“Seriously, just dodge.”

Some people don't like hard mode

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Posted by: Conski Deshan.2057

Conski Deshan.2057

….

They asked for feedback over their “harder” content numerous times now. Feedback on SAB TM, feedback on the new Tequatl, Triple Trouble. They’ve asked for feedback over the new more challenging mobs in Verdnat Brink. They’ve asked numerous times, there has been a CDI on raiding with 1700 replies.

They asked players what they want more than once. They got feedback and now the respond.

1700 replies? How many are from the same person? And compared to the population of GW2 what percentage of the ENTIRE player base answered? So NO they did not ask the players, the asked probably the smallest subset of the playerbase and now claim they know what ALL of them want.

Again they have NEVER asked ALL the players!!! Because for that they would have to add a popup ingame to inform the players that they want their opinion and they NEVER did that.

They asked a reasonable sampling of active players (all of whom span the spectrum from low playtime or low skill to high play time or high skill players). It allowed for better and more detailed feedback on the issue rather than just a yes/no poll of the entire playerbase.

That’s why putting all rewards on the market is a horrible idea.

Agreed, there’s far too many rewards you can just straight out buy, and no matter what anyone says it detracts from the overall quality of gameplay you don’t have to keep doing new content to get new reward, no improvement is needed. You just end up with players running in circles in an endless skinner box of ding 50g new reward, ding 60g new reward..

There are players out there can only able to play 1 hour per day max, one of my RL friend can share only 2 hours per WEEK to play. Both of us must skip all time consuming contents in order to have fun. He is more of a pvper than me, but he never player pvp match outside of hotjoin, i asked him why, the reason is, he don’t want to queue up for 2 mins in order to play. EVERY SEC of play time matters.

PvP reward track is the best example of how rewards can be given with an alternative way besides hard contents. Play hard content for faster obtain or play casual contents to slowly obtain.

You have other priorities in life at the moment (not a bad thing) , but you can’t reasonably expect to have access to everything in a game designed to cater also to players with 10,000 hours played , a whole range of skill levels, playstyles etc.

The best way to go is just to think “ok these are the rewards obtainable in my skill range and time range, those other rewards are for other people”.

I’m not a fan of PvP tracks, they render a reward worthless, everyone gets the reward even if they fail 80 times in a row, there is literally no potential for failure, requirement of skill or anything that makes a game a game. The only input is time.

[RoF] and [BL] guild leader
11x level 80’s 80+ Titles 2600+ skins , still a long way to go.

Some people don't like hard mode

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Posted by: Snow.2048

Snow.2048

Well if you think so, Kashrlyyk, then maybe we arn’t actually in disagreement. But I said is you can’t compare DS2 to gw2 because they’re on completely different levels of difficulty (as well as being a complete different genre I might add) which runs completely counter to you applying it guild wars 2 as an example of how harder content ruins games. GW2’s hardest content won’t even be near the base game of DS2, so comparing NG+7 players to what people are asking for here is just silly. Try comparing it to the bosses giving souls to buy weapons as a reward instead (and then realize that is still ridiculous because skin versus move sets). It really is that trivial a reward that is being asked, a bloody skin. Furthermore, like I keep saying GROUP content, every at least somewhat sociable person is going to get carried if they can’kittens GW2.

To the shield discussion. Shield remains a crutch in most of DS2 [there are situational uses for it, like most things], screwing up a dodge (I guess I said missing, my mistake, sorry. You are completely right that you can't save a dodge that's just a bit off with a shield) is more than just getting hit because you timed it wrong. Its using up your stamina too fast so nothing is left to dodge, dodging completely wrong but enough time to react afterwards forcing you to dodge (or block) a second time, just flat out not dodging (in order to say block or slip another attack in). Blocking is worse than dodging, because you only hold ground for a short time until your guard is broken, with seldom an opportunity to get out of the turtle you get yourself in (unless you successfully dodge out). Dodge allows repositioning on top of the protection it gives, giving you the chance to fight back. The game design is just not friendly to shield users, and why should it be when learning to dodge properly and turn the tables is more challenging. (why use nomad's gear to do a dps race task when you can dodge in zerker just as well if put in gw2 terms.)

But all the details aside, your main point was higher difficulties only bring restriction in choices. I put forth in the example you give, the restriction fits the actual point of the game, which is learning and adapting and therefore has a greater purpose in actually furthering bringing the point of that game home and giving those who enjoy that type of game extra layers to enjoy the game longer and/or more, which is quite the higher purpose when compared to only reducing choices.

So if you think our posts are in agreement (which they might very well be beyond a few details), maybe you should actually look at the different conclusions we both draw from seeing the examples given and discuss that instead.

Challenging content serves a higher purpose than simply reducing choices, namely a portion of the user base’s enjoyment, and rewards give incentive to get out of ones comfort zone, to increase the amount of users trying the content, thus increasing its impact factor. Rewards furthermore provide replayability (and yes,the rewards of DS2 is merely bragging rights after a point, but gw2 is no where near that point anyway), which makes their stats go up so they don’t get NCsoft’d.

(edited by Snow.2048)

Some people don't like hard mode

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Posted by: Fox.3469

Fox.3469

It’s just a dangerous slippery slope, that doesn’t need to be walked. Silverwastes and drytop both have their unique reward skins, and to me those are rewards i will NEVER get because i honestly don’t like doing those trains. But i don’t see people crying about that. And they shouldn’t. But is shows that Arenanet is more then willing to put unique rewards into maps and doing events. Now in the beta, there was a currency called airship parts, we don’t have an idea what that will provide us but let’s say it unlocks a few unique skins for the verdant brink map. Like drytop and silverwastes.

I probally won’t be able to get those either, due to the fact i just don’t like doing that content (altough i have to wait and see, VB did seem allot more interesting then Silverwastes at least), but let’s say i don’t like it. Does that mean those skins should be unlockable by gold aswell? Because there are people who don’t like the content. I never see anyone having a problem with it and neither do i, i’ll just use another skin…

But then to hear those people come say that hardcore content needs non-exclusive rewards, just kind of kittenes me off. The skin system is fine, and if you don’t want to do a certain type of content, don’t do it. If you like the rewards for it, tough luck. I do like some of the silverwastes and drytop skins, especially some of the ambrite weapons, but i’m not gonna play content that i don’t find fun. I tought about it, concluded to myself it wasn’t worth it, and i got over it…

Do i mind people running around with these weapons while i don’t, hell no.
Seriously the only reason this argument would EVER be valuable is if skins were so limited that only hard content had really nice skins, but that isn’t the case, and hasn’t been the case for a long long time. I personally wear a mix of racial armor on most of my characters because i really love most of it. Despite having unlocked full Arah and Cof sets on all 3 armor types. I used them for a while, got bored and changed to something else cause i realised i liked them more.

There is enough choice…

If you are looking for a cozy mature Dutch guild (EU) let me know.

(edited by Fox.3469)

Some people don't like hard mode

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Posted by: Lucius.2140

Lucius.2140

There is this pervasive belief that 99% of the player base is 100% casual and that all of these players enjoy 100% the same type of content. I would 100% love to see these metrics.

As a casual player who generally enjoys to see all the content a game has to offer, I play and enjoy difficult content with other non-elitist, non-hard core players. Hard-core and elitism is an attitude, and does not necessarily have any causal relation to the skill of the player nor the content they enjoy.

MMOs definition of hardcore isnt directly related to skill level, its about time. In other types of games hardcore its the difficulty level you like and at the same time can play, so its related to skill level.

In fact i have friends that play very well, specially considering the time they spend in game, but in this game will be casuals. In MMO standars generally we all will progress to casuals as we get more real life responsabilities, but that doesnt mean that you like or play a litle of dull content, some people prefer the short but intense aproach.

Even if a casual isnt skilled, that doesnt mean he cant be skilled, as long as theres not physical/mental and/or hardware/internet problems, he can basically do all the content internet have.

My friend “Take”, who its relativly casual (no more than 10 hours a week), played Liandri (First Queen Gauntlet) about 300 times until he won, he spent all his time on it and was super happy of winning it.

Edit: If it wasnt solo i would have carried him, his my friend!

(edited by Lucius.2140)

Some people don't like hard mode

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Posted by: maddoctor.2738

maddoctor.2738

I probally won’t be able to get those either, due to the fact i just don’t like doing that content (altough i have to wait and see, VB did seem allot more interesting then Silverwastes at least), but let’s say i don’t like it. Does that mean those skins should be unlockable by gold aswell? Because there are people who don’t like the content. I never see anyone having a problem with it and neither do i, i’ll just use another skin…

I’d love to see someone of the “no exclusive rewards on challenging content” addressing this one.

I hated the RNG part of the Vinewrath to get the final piece for the lumi set (the chest) yet I couldn’t get the lumi set playing content I enjoy.
I hated (and still do) the amount of grinding needed to get the full Ambrite collection and as a collector it kittenes me off. What can I do? Nothing I just will never get the Ambrite weapon collection.
As an achievement hunter, I want to finish the treasure hunter collection, but it requires me killing some specific world bosses that I find non-fun or enjoyable at all, therefore I don’t have that collection either. No I won’t spend a legendary-amount of gold to buy SAM off some lucky person on the TP.

All are completely out of my reach. Should I start posting daily about them like the “anti-hard content” crowd?

Some people don't like hard mode

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Posted by: Lucius.2140

Lucius.2140

Well if you think so, Kashrlyyk, then maybe we arn’t actually in disagreement. But I said is you can’t compare DS2 to gw2 because they’re on completely different levels of difficulty (as well as being a complete different genre I might add) which runs completely counter to you applying it guild wars 2 as an example of how harder content ruins games. GW2’s hardest content won’t even be near the base game of DS2, so comparing NG+7 players to what people are asking for here is just silly. Try comparing it to the bosses giving souls to buy weapons as a reward instead (and then realize that is still ridiculous because skin versus move sets). It really is that trivial a reward that is being asked, a bloody skin. Furthermore, like I keep saying GROUP content, every at least somewhat sociable person is going to get carried if they can’kittens GW2.

Even if you compare them -.- , DS1 and DS2 arent innatly difficult. In all of that kind of games you only need to check how your enemy works. DS2 doesnt require great analitical skills, reflex , concentration and managment or super fast decision making, its just have patience and dont do things wrong.

What make DS “renown” for been difficult its the way it punish people for playing bad.

So basically a litle patience and opponent reading will make nearly any player win DS or games of that type.

I agree GW2 cant be compared to DS2, but if you do, its all a L2P problem, that can be easily fixed with actual trying and not discouragment.

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Posted by: FrizzFreston.5290

FrizzFreston.5290

I thought about bringing up that the term casuals in MMO terms is not very clear. Some people use it for people who play a little amount, others for players that aren’t very serious about being the best and others say its both.

Whenever someone claims this game is for casuals I mostly think that they have no clue what they are talking about. ArenaNet has always been about including as many players as possible. At least I think so, which means that there’s something for everyone which means some content is not designed for you which includes unique rewards. They never said that the game is for casuals, whatever that means to begin with.

“It isn’t working!” CL4P-TP
Ingame Name: Guardian Erik

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Posted by: Amiron.1067

Amiron.1067

They should not be blocked out from fun experiences and cool rewards, they should not have a slower advancement path, just because they do not want to participate in difficult content, or are incapable of doing so.

I was with you until the bolded part. I disagree fundamentally with you if you believe, if there were an “easy mode” and “hard mode”, that easy mode players should have access to the same unique or interesting rewards as hard mode players.

I’d be okay with a system that provides the same rewards, but more to hard mode players. In example, a new dungeon path rewards easy mode players with 1 charged core on completion, but the hard mode players are rewarded 3 charged cores. Players still get the same rewards, but the ones who put in the extra work get the better reward.

Historically, those who put in the most work net the bigger and better rewards. What would be the incentive to play hard mode content if easy mode provided the same rewards and took much less time to accomplish with relative ease? It simply makes no sense.

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Posted by: Astralporing.1957

Astralporing.1957

I really don’t get why people are so against challenging content giving better or exclusive rewards….I mean heck. Challenging doesn’t nesscarily mean long, and it also doesn’t necessarily mean “oh you have to be this or we’ll kick you!”

It does however mean “a content that a majority of players will not be able to complete”. Because a content that majority (or just a large number) of players can complete is apparently not challenging enough.

Mind you, how much challenging the content should be is something that even hardcore players will not agree on. After all, everyone will use themselves as a baseline – so someone in top 10% will ask for a content that top 10% can clear, top 2% player will say that it’s too easy, and that top 2% should be a better cutout, and the top 10 players will keep getting bored no matter the difficulty

You mean in 2 months everyone will be able to do it? That would be a failure of “challenging” content.

Nah, in 2 months most of those skilled enough to run it will be farming it (it will be no more challenging for them), while most of those not skilled enough will stop even trying (and thus it won’t be relevant to them anymore). The number of people for whom the content will remain both relevant and challenging will by that time be really, really small.

They asked for feedback over their “harder” content numerous times now. Feedback on SAB TM, feedback on the new Tequatl, Triple Trouble. They’ve asked for feedback over the new more challenging mobs in Verdnat Brink. They’ve asked numerous times, there has been a CDI on raiding with 1700 replies.

They asked players what they want more than once. They got feedback and now the respond.

The feedback in most of those threads has been generally negative towards harder content and more challenging topics, if you haven’t noticed. The only exception was the raid CDI – perhaps because everyone that did not want raiding in this game has been kindly asked to not participate. And even then it wasn’t that overwhelmingly positive in many ways.

By putting the CDI about it on the forum, they give everybody the possibility to give their opinion about it.. so yes they asked everybody.. Not everybody answered.

Again, because it was mentioned that it was a CDI for the people that do want Raids. There wasn’t any question asked about whether the community want it or not at all.

.

All are completely out of my reach. Should I start posting daily about them like the “anti-hard content” crowd?

Why not? It worked for the pvp people asking for dungeon skins after all.

I’d be okay with a system that provides the same rewards, but more to hard mode players. In example, a new dungeon path rewards easy mode players with 1 charged core on completion, but the hard mode players are rewarded 3 charged cores. Players still get the same rewards, but the ones who put in the extra work get the better reward.

That is actually quite reasonable.

Actions, not words.
Remember, remember, 15th of November

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Posted by: Conski Deshan.2057

Conski Deshan.2057

It does however mean “a content that a majority of players will not be able to complete”. Because a content that majority (or just a large number) of players can complete is apparently not challenging enough.

How else would you define or measure challenge/difficulty?, I mean to me those are both measures of where you stand in comparison to the whole playerbase.
Some people do mix up having to put effort in as difficulty but they are not the same.

Mind you, how much challenging the content should be is something that even hardcore players will not agree on. After all, everyone will use themselves as a baseline – so someone in top 10% will ask for a content that top 10% can clear, top 2% player will say that it’s too easy, and that top 2% should be a better cutout, and the top 10 players will keep getting bored no matter the difficulty

The ideal way to do it would be to introduce several pieces of content of varying difficulty, with the top one designed in the devs mind as unbeatable, it would likely be beaten within a month so they make a harder one designed to be unbeatable, and repeat until you actually manage to create a piece of content no one can complete (not unbeatable by game design mind you), Then you have an accurate difficulty gauge and can create more content target to each group.

Nah, in 2 months most of those skilled enough to run it will be farming it (it will be no more challenging for them), while most of those not skilled enough will stop even trying (and thus it won’t be relevant to them anymore). The number of people for whom the content will remain both relevant and challenging will by that time be really, really small.

Is this not the desired outcome? Those who were meant to be able to complete it have done so and now get the enjoyment and rewards from it, those who were not meant to be able to still can’t.
2 months is a good run for a piece of content.

The feedback in most of those threads has been generally negative towards harder content and more challenging topics, if you haven’t noticed. The only exception was the raid CDI – perhaps because everyone that did not want raiding in this game has been kindly asked to not participate. And even then it wasn’t that overwhelmingly positive in many ways.

Funnily enough the raid thread was partially derailed due to the OP of this topic.
It was actually quite positive minus his interactions. In most threads I’ve seen a positive response except from a small core of prolific posters.

[RoF] and [BL] guild leader
11x level 80’s 80+ Titles 2600+ skins , still a long way to go.

(edited by Conski Deshan.2057)

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Posted by: maddoctor.2738

maddoctor.2738

You mean in 2 months everyone will be able to do it? That would be a failure of “challenging” content.

Nah, in 2 months most of those skilled enough to run it will be farming it (it will be no more challenging for them), while most of those not skilled enough will stop even trying (and thus it won’t be relevant to them anymore). The number of people for whom the content will remain both relevant and challenging will by that time be really, really small.

Challenge in a game isn’t a binary thing. It’s not a can and cannot do. What you can’t do NOW, you might be able to do it with some more tries. People have no problem grinding and farming to no end for whole days, yet they can’t repeat some harder content til they “master” it. As for how long it will take, players are STILL trying to solo Lupicus (which is on itself a type of challenging content) while some of the best solo lupi killers have already gone to naked, one hand, blind or whatever other silly thing they can think of.

They asked for feedback over their “harder” content numerous times now. Feedback on SAB TM, feedback on the new Tequatl, Triple Trouble. They’ve asked for feedback over the new more challenging mobs in Verdnat Brink. They’ve asked numerous times, there has been a CDI on raiding with 1700 replies.

They asked players what they want more than once. They got feedback and now the respond.

The feedback in most of those threads has been generally negative towards harder content and more challenging topics, if you haven’t noticed. The only exception was the raid CDI – perhaps because everyone that did not want raiding in this game has been kindly asked to not participate. And even then it wasn’t that overwhelmingly positive in many ways.

I didn’t see it as mostly negative. I will redirect you to the latest threads about HoT difficulty which have a lot of “please don’t nerf them posts”. The difficulty of VB was mostly well received, same goes for the Mordrem, maybe except for the initial version of the wolves and their retaliation spam. Even in earlier releases, the Molten Alliance and Toxic Alliance mobs were all praised for their increased difficulty compared to other types of content. The Marionette is considered one of the best PVE encounters in the game and is found on loads of posts that deal with harder content. Fractals difficulty (the actual content not the extra hp/damage of higher levels) was also praised as a good step forward.

Aside from the difficulty spike of some story instances in LS2, and some of their achievements which are very hard to solo, I wouldn’t say the rest of the content released was received as “negative” difficulty-wise.

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Posted by: Fox.3469

Fox.3469

Nah, in 2 months most of those skilled enough to run it will be farming it (it will be no more challenging for them), while most of those not skilled enough will stop even trying (and thus it won’t be relevant to them anymore). The number of people for whom the content will remain both relevant and challenging will by that time be really, really small.

And that is where you are wrong, and rewards do matter. As long as skilled players have a good reason to farm hardcore content, the entry-level will lower over time. This is group content after all. So people need groups. The people that have completed the content, or even just a certain encounter, automaticly become sort of teachers towards players who are in there the first time.

However when you don’t add rewards that reward your time and effort put in. You basicly get another Arah path 4. Wich is the hardest thing in the game for someone that hasn’t done it yet, not because it’s that hard, but because the people with experience have left, since that path doesn’t nearly reward you enough compared to the other Arah paths.

If you do not keep the veterans farming certain content, you automaticly doom that content to be far less accesable then when they do.

If you are looking for a cozy mature Dutch guild (EU) let me know.

(edited by Fox.3469)

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Posted by: CorrynnStarr.7942

CorrynnStarr.7942

for christs sake… its this simple… HAVE YOUR HARD CONTENT no one is saying you shouldnt have challenging content, hell we enjoy hard content too, just dont lock the rewards so far out of reach that it becomes impossible for more then a handful of players to obtain it!

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Posted by: Fox.3469

Fox.3469

for christs sake… its this simple… HAVE YOUR HARD CONTENT no one is saying you shouldnt have challenging content, hell we enjoy hard content too, just dont lock the rewards so far out of reach that it becomes impossible for more then a handful of players to obtain it!

And the answer is even more simple: NO

If you are looking for a cozy mature Dutch guild (EU) let me know.

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Posted by: SkiTz.4590

SkiTz.4590

for christs sake… its this simple… HAVE YOUR HARD CONTENT no one is saying you shouldnt have challenging content, hell we enjoy hard content too, just dont lock the rewards so far out of reach that it becomes impossible for more then a handful of players to obtain it!

it’s also this simple… NO ONE is going to bother doing this new content that anet spent valuable time and resources if there are not UNIQUE rewards. They might do it just because its new for the first week or so, and than it will be dead content if there is no unique reward or unique progression towards a reward.

If you can simply spam autoattack in a zerg train or run in circles in silverwastes digging up chests and a few hours later, voila! I’ll just buy the new stuff on TP!!!,
THAN NO ONE WILL DO THE NEW CONTENT!.

How hard is that to comprehend? You think anet is going to release content that will be dead content ? I don’t think so.

a new , UNIQUE , challenging content is coming and logically guessing, its going to have UNIQUE rewards… THATs how it needs to be.

95% of the rewards in this game can be achieved by running hours and hours in silverwastes, and than just buying it, even the so called unique “legendaries”…. you think anet will add more stuff to that 95% with their newest, challenging content? I highly doubt it.

We’ll know for sure soon enough thou since that is going to be next major reveal in the coming weeks

(edited by SkiTz.4590)

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Posted by: maddoctor.2738

maddoctor.2738

for christs sake… its this simple… HAVE YOUR HARD CONTENT no one is saying you shouldnt have challenging content, hell we enjoy hard content too, just dont lock the rewards so far out of reach that it becomes impossible for more then a handful of players to obtain it!

it’s also this simple… NO ONE is going to bother doing this new content that anet spent valuable time and resources if there are not UNIQUE rewards. They might do it just because its new for the first week or so, and than it will be dead content if there is no unique reward or unique progression towards a reward.

I think this is the main issue with all this conversation. I tried earlier to provide some options.

Putting them on the TP is a no no for reason I’ve already explained in other posts (mostly due to the heavy RNG/Grind required to keep them expensive) but making it so everyone can “farm” specific parts of the new challenging zone for tokens, while finishing the entire content gives a load more is one valid way to do this.

First boss (easier) might give 1 token, second boss 2 tokens, third boss 3 tokens, or 1/4/10 or whatever, so players of all skill levels can get the rewards while spending time in this content, not by farming SW or DT or whatever other farm exist.

In a similar way players that can’t finish the whole content because of time constraints could do a few bosses/sectors each time much how DoA worked in GW1. The greatest groups could do all 4 sectors in one run, getting 1/2/3/4 = 10 tokens. Players that wanted to farm one specific sector because it was easier for them, or they didn’t have enough time to do the whole thing, were getting 1 token. And anyone else, anywhere in between.

This of course requires the zones to be open enough and not be a straight line like current dungeons.

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Posted by: SkiTz.4590

SkiTz.4590

for christs sake… its this simple… HAVE YOUR HARD CONTENT no one is saying you shouldnt have challenging content, hell we enjoy hard content too, just dont lock the rewards so far out of reach that it becomes impossible for more then a handful of players to obtain it!

it’s also this simple… NO ONE is going to bother doing this new content that anet spent valuable time and resources if there are not UNIQUE rewards. They might do it just because its new for the first week or so, and than it will be dead content if there is no unique reward or unique progression towards a reward.

I think this is the main issue with all this conversation. I tried earlier to provide some options.

Putting them on the TP is a no no for reason I’ve already explained in other posts (mostly due to the heavy RNG/Grind required to keep them expensive) but making it so everyone can “farm” specific parts of the new challenging zone for tokens, while finishing the entire content gives a load more is one valid way to do this.

First boss (easier) might give 1 token, second boss 2 tokens, third boss 3 tokens, or 1/4/10 or whatever, so players of all skill levels can get the rewards while spending time in this content, not by farming SW or DT or whatever other farm exist.

In a similar way players that can’t finish the whole content because of time constraints could do a few bosses/sectors each time much how DoA worked in GW1. The greatest groups could do all 4 sectors in one run, getting 1/2/3/4 = 10 tokens. Players that wanted to farm one specific sector because it was easier for them, or they didn’t have enough time to do the whole thing, were getting 1 token. And anyone else, anywhere in between.

This of course requires the zones to be open enough and not be a straight line like current dungeons.

Ya I’m assuming anet will have a couple methods to acquire the new challenging content rewards, but I don’t think TP will be one of them…

Point is moot thou until anet releases more detail. We don’t even know if its going to be open world or instanced lol

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Posted by: CorrynnStarr.7942

CorrynnStarr.7942

Skitz gets it… its not that we want to remove difficult options for people, there just needs to be a less exclusionary way to get the reward for playing WITHIN the pvp system. A token system could work as it rewards players for STAYING in PVP, but not excluding them from the end rewards.

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Posted by: maddoctor.2738

maddoctor.2738

for christs sake… its this simple… HAVE YOUR HARD CONTENT no one is saying you shouldnt have challenging content, hell we enjoy hard content too, just dont lock the rewards so far out of reach that it becomes impossible for more then a handful of players to obtain it!

it’s also this simple… NO ONE is going to bother doing this new content that anet spent valuable time and resources if there are not UNIQUE rewards. They might do it just because its new for the first week or so, and than it will be dead content if there is no unique reward or unique progression towards a reward.

I think this is the main issue with all this conversation. I tried earlier to provide some options.

Putting them on the TP is a no no for reason I’ve already explained in other posts (mostly due to the heavy RNG/Grind required to keep them expensive) but making it so everyone can “farm” specific parts of the new challenging zone for tokens, while finishing the entire content gives a load more is one valid way to do this.

First boss (easier) might give 1 token, second boss 2 tokens, third boss 3 tokens, or 1/4/10 or whatever, so players of all skill levels can get the rewards while spending time in this content, not by farming SW or DT or whatever other farm exist.

In a similar way players that can’t finish the whole content because of time constraints could do a few bosses/sectors each time much how DoA worked in GW1. The greatest groups could do all 4 sectors in one run, getting 1/2/3/4 = 10 tokens. Players that wanted to farm one specific sector because it was easier for them, or they didn’t have enough time to do the whole thing, were getting 1 token. And anyone else, anywhere in between.

This of course requires the zones to be open enough and not be a straight line like current dungeons.

Ya I’m assuming anet will have a couple methods to acquire the new challenging content rewards, but I don’t think TP will be one of them…

Point is moot thou until anet releases more detail. We don’t even know if its going to be open world or instanced lol

To me, the terms “Open World” and “Challenge” do not fit together at all.

Unless they use a hybrid mode where a pre-made group will deal with a more “instanced” part of a fight while the rest of the population will deal with the more open part, think of it like allowing only specific groups to join the Marionette platforms while everyone else is defending the lanes, or only a specific group of people entering the Amber Wurm to fight a unique boss inside, while everyone else is focusing on the open part of the fight.

Some current fights redesigned to make them Open World and Instanced at the same time. But just open world will never be challenging and I can’t even think how they call anything in the open world “challenging”.

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Posted by: Conski Deshan.2057

Conski Deshan.2057

Skitz gets it… its not that we want to remove difficult options for people, there just needs to be a less exclusionary way to get the reward for playing WITHIN the pvp system. A token system could work as it rewards players for STAYING in PVP, but not excluding them from the end rewards.

What you don’t seem to get is the reward is a medal or trophy, its a specific item for a specific piece of content or achievement that displays that you completed that specific piece of content.
Getting it by any other way than doing that specific thing removes that aspect from it.

Since you’re using PvP in your example think of the legendary back-piece as an Olympic medal, unless you’re an Olympic level athlete you have 0 chance of getting that item it’s the same principle here.

[RoF] and [BL] guild leader
11x level 80’s 80+ Titles 2600+ skins , still a long way to go.

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Posted by: PorceleinEve.2973

PorceleinEve.2973

it’s also this simple… NO ONE is going to bother doing this new content that anet spent valuable time and resources if there are not UNIQUE rewards. They might do it just because its new for the first week or so, and than it will be dead content if there is no unique reward or unique progression towards a reward

Good thing you guys love challenge for challenge’s sake and are not what so ever interested in better and exclusive loot to show off in LA. For a moment there you had me confused :P

Where are all them noble warriors who kept telling me how it’s not about loot at all and I have it all confused in my mind I wonder.

Where are all those people who kept telling everyone how SSC failed cause it was boring and not because the rewards weren’t worth it, cause they just don’t care about the rewards…

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Posted by: Kashrlyyk.5364

Kashrlyyk.5364

What did you expect them to ask in that popup? “Do you want more challenging content? YES/NO”?

….

That or pointing the players to where the survey is happening, where the feedback can be given. It’s not enough to have the launcher have a tiny little banner about it because thanks to “Autoplay” this banner might not be seen by lots of players.

….

By putting the CDI about it on the forum, they give everybody the possibility to give their opinion about it.. so yes they asked everybody.. Not everybody answered.

….

They asked a reasonable sampling of active players (all of whom span the spectrum from low playtime or low skill to high play time or high skill players). It allowed for better and more detailed feedback on the issue rather than just a yes/no poll of the entire playerbase.

It’s very well known that most players do NOT visit the forums of the games they play. And the ones who do visit are more likely to NOT be casual players. So from the start the feedback was suffering from a massive selection bias. So no they did not ask a “reasonable sampling”.

That is why they should have made an ingame popup to actually give every player a chance to give feedback.

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Posted by: Coulter.2315

Coulter.2315

it’s also this simple… NO ONE is going to bother doing this new content that anet spent valuable time and resources if there are not UNIQUE rewards. They might do it just because its new for the first week or so, and than it will be dead content if there is no unique reward or unique progression towards a reward

Good thing you guys love challenge for challenge’s sake and are not what so ever interested in better and exclusive loot to show off in LA. For a moment there you had me confused :P

Where are all them noble warriors who kept telling me how it’s not about loot at all and I have it all confused in my mind I wonder.

Where are all those people who kept telling everyone how SSC failed cause it was boring and not because the rewards weren’t worth it, cause they just don’t care about the rewards…

When people accomplish something they like to have a token which proves it… Do you think people burn their Degrees after uni? You are trying to trick people, no one is asking for challenge with no recognition… Recognition is a fundamental part of humanity – we are pack animals…

Stop trying to get people to argue in your demented world – its not real. Rewards and challenge have been requested for this game for a long time.

If you spent half as much time in game playing as you do on the forums begging (trolling?) for “no challenge because I don’t want to be left without stuff” you would be a player capable of achieving whatever the game could throw at you by now.

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Posted by: Kidel.2057

Kidel.2057

Wait a minute, there is some people here thinking that verdant brink is hard? It’s harder then skillspamming on a poor moa, but it’s not “hard”, come on. It’s easier the soloing a BAM on Tera.

And a BAM hunt party in Tera is one of the coolest thing in any MMO.

GW2 should really have some real “taunt” implementation to keep mob hate, so we can have tanks and so harder mobs.

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Posted by: SkiTz.4590

SkiTz.4590

it’s also this simple… NO ONE is going to bother doing this new content that anet spent valuable time and resources if there are not UNIQUE rewards. They might do it just because its new for the first week or so, and than it will be dead content if there is no unique reward or unique progression towards a reward

Good thing you guys love challenge for challenge’s sake and are not what so ever interested in better and exclusive loot to show off in LA. For a moment there you had me confused :P

Where are all them noble warriors who kept telling me how it’s not about loot at all and I have it all confused in my mind I wonder.

Where are all those people who kept telling everyone how SSC failed cause it was boring and not because the rewards weren’t worth it, cause they just don’t care about the rewards…

Challenge for the sake of challenge? why would you even play this game for the sake of challenge?? If I want a challenge, theres a plethora of “challenging” games that are head and shoulders above gw2 in terms of “challenge”

MMORPGs in general , in their nature are NOT played for saying “i’m just doing challenging stuff for the sake of challenge”.

SSC failed because it got boring REAL QUICK and the LOOT was terrible compared to farming champ trains or orr. Thus, DEAD CONTENT. That’s what happened to every freaking thing in PvE leading up to silverwastes. In terms of PvE content, No one even bothers to venture outside silverwastes unless its for a daily dung/frac run. That’s what happens when you have no unique reward system or progression. All maps/content are dead except the 1 thats giving the most gold/hour…

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Posted by: PorceleinEve.2973

PorceleinEve.2973

When people accomplish something they like to have a token which proves it… Do you think people burn their Degrees after uni? You are trying to trick people, no one is asking for challenge with no recognition… Recognition is a fundamental part of humanity – we are pack animals…

Stop trying to get people to argue in your demented world – its not real. Rewards and challenge have been requested for this game for a long time.

If you spent half as much time in game playing as you do on the forums begging (trolling?) for “no challenge because I don’t want to be left without stuff” you would be a player capable of achieving whatever the game could throw at you by now.

So now it’s all about the loots. Glad to hear it. I got confused cause some of you in here were arguing that what mattered was the challenge. And when I said that you’re just doing it for the loot and the never ending need to show your fellow man how much better you are than them, you guys told me I was so so wrong. Glad to hear I wasn’t.

I don’t try to argue with people, I just comment on stuff I find interesting, and make my opinion known to the company. This isn’t a debate club. We’re not debating anything, we’re just making sure the company knows what the playerbase wants.

I’m very happy to hear, you have instructions on how to spend my free time. Fortunately for you, nobody asks for no challenge, it’s a falsehood your side of things perpetuates cause you guys just love attacking a strawman. Me, personally, I like things mellow, but that’s just me. Everyone else in here is very happy for you guys to be getting you challenging game content, just not on top of theirs. Hell, they’ll probably do it themselves if the rewards can be gotten via personal effort and application of time.

What most people here really complain about, is that perceived change of direction for the game on the part of the company, that nobody from the company bothers to tell the players. I reckon they’re pretty happy having us fighting amongst ourselves. The “hardcore” crowd is very good at that. The vocal minority that gets upset when ppl dissagree with them, and feel the need to yell so hard as to cover everyone else’s voices.

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Posted by: PorceleinEve.2973

PorceleinEve.2973

Challenge for the sake of challenge? why would you even play this game for the sake of challenge?? If I want a challenge, theres a plethora of “challenging” games that are head and shoulders above gw2 in terms of “challenge”

MMORPGs in general , in their nature are NOT played for saying “i’m just doing challenging stuff for the sake of challenge”.

SSC failed because it got boring REAL QUICK and the LOOT was terrible compared to farming champ trains or orr. Thus, DEAD CONTENT. That’s what happened to every freaking thing in PvE leading up to silverwastes. In terms of PvE content, No one even bothers to venture outside silverwastes unless its for a daily dung/frac run. That’s what happens when you have no unique reward system or progression. All maps/content are dead except the 1 thats giving the most gold/hour…

Don’t tell me that, I already knew that it’s all about the loot and perceived feelings of superiority.

Just read the thread from the beginning and see how people complained how it’s not about the loot when I said so. I just waited patiently till you guys admit it to yourselves, so I can post an “aha” post.

So .. “aha”?

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Posted by: Conski Deshan.2057

Conski Deshan.2057

Challenge for the sake of challenge? why would you even play this game for the sake of challenge?? If I want a challenge, theres a plethora of “challenging” games that are head and shoulders above gw2 in terms of “challenge”

MMORPGs in general , in their nature are NOT played for saying “i’m just doing challenging stuff for the sake of challenge”.

SSC failed because it got boring REAL QUICK and the LOOT was terrible compared to farming champ trains or orr. Thus, DEAD CONTENT. That’s what happened to every freaking thing in PvE leading up to silverwastes. In terms of PvE content, No one even bothers to venture outside silverwastes unless its for a daily dung/frac run. That’s what happens when you have no unique reward system or progression. All maps/content are dead except the 1 thats giving the most gold/hour…

Don’t tell me that, I already knew that it’s all about the loot and perceived feelings of superiority.

Just read the thread from the beginning and see how people complained how it’s not about the loot when I said so. I just waited patiently till you guys admit it to yourselves, so I can post an “aha” post.

So .. “aha”?

aha what?

It’s not a black and white thing. , Yes people want challenging content and yes people want to be rewarded for it. Rewards without challenge or conditions to them are mostly meaningless and challenging content without rewards does not convey your accomplishment or make sense to play In an mmo context because it’s a “waste” of your time in the mmo because it didn’t help your account.
Shock and horror people like to be rewarded for being capable of accomplishing things, what a scandal…..

[RoF] and [BL] guild leader
11x level 80’s 80+ Titles 2600+ skins , still a long way to go.

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Posted by: Draknar.5748

Draknar.5748

I totally agree with OP. I don’t want rewards to be exclusive. For example
Fractals 50 are too hard and I want those fractal skins. But I can’t afford 4-5 hours a day grinding one fractal at time all the way to 50 then a few hundred more. What I can do is spending 50 mins on ACp1 and 30 mins on CoFp1 once day. Fractal skins is out of my reach. When HoT comes out I will quit the game if I can’t trade maybe 1000 ac and cof tokens combined for each fractal skin. Please don’t be exclusive.

When september hits, I can only afford about 30 mins a day on this game due to work. I don’t even know if I can grind out those AC tokens anymore. It takes 30 mins for path 1 or 3. What I can do I roleplay in Queensdale. Please let me earn roleplay tokens every time I type /e followed by a sentence that’s more than 100 characters long and let me exchange 10,000 role play tokens for those fractal skin please! Please!

I can’t tell if you are joking or not. But if not, this is exactly the kind of mentality that I find unreasonable.

They are fractal skins. If you don’t want to or can’t (for some reason) do fractals, then you shouldn’t have access to them. Luckily for you they are making them obtainable with fractal relics or something in HoT, plus you will be able to pick and choose fractals and do 1 at a time. But that still requires running fractals. That throws the whole “I don’t have time” argument out the window. Eventually it will just be “it’s too hard, I want this stuff but I want to be able to do Queensdale events for it, be fair Anet!!!”

I don’t care how many AC paths you run, that is not deserving of an item that takes 1000x more effort to complete.

Why do people think they should be able to get whatever they what however they want without having to work for it (and no, mindlessly running a 10min dungeon path over and over is not “working” for it). That’s such entitlement BS.

I want the dragon PvP finisher, should I be able to simply unlock it by running AC paths too? No way.

I wish people would just learn to deal with the fact that there might be some items that they won’t get with the EZ button.

I won’t stop because I can’t stop.

It’s a medical condition, they say its terminal….

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Posted by: SkiTz.4590

SkiTz.4590

Challenge for the sake of challenge? why would you even play this game for the sake of challenge?? If I want a challenge, theres a plethora of “challenging” games that are head and shoulders above gw2 in terms of “challenge”

MMORPGs in general , in their nature are NOT played for saying “i’m just doing challenging stuff for the sake of challenge”.

SSC failed because it got boring REAL QUICK and the LOOT was terrible compared to farming champ trains or orr. Thus, DEAD CONTENT. That’s what happened to every freaking thing in PvE leading up to silverwastes. In terms of PvE content, No one even bothers to venture outside silverwastes unless its for a daily dung/frac run. That’s what happens when you have no unique reward system or progression. All maps/content are dead except the 1 thats giving the most gold/hour…

Don’t tell me that, I already knew that it’s all about the loot and perceived feelings of superiority.

Just read the thread from the beginning and see how people complained how it’s not about the loot when I said so. I just waited patiently till you guys admit it to yourselves, so I can post an “aha” post.

So .. “aha”?

What exactly are you “ahaing”

This is not a loot driven , power creep game like diablo 3 , PoE, etc etc.

It’s about the CLEAR lack of unique rewards/progression.

This game doesn’t even have loot. There is no ’LOOT" to even farm. What you have to farm is scraps. You farm scraps and scraps (bags with blues,greens,yellows,mats, etc,etc,basically salvagables) and eventually get enough mats or gold from the scraps to BUY whatever reward you want. ya you may get lucky and land an exotic from time to time thats about it.

Most of the ppl are just hoping that this new “challenging content” DOES NOT add more scraps to the system… theres enough of this… what there isn’t enough of is UNIQUE reward/progression.

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Posted by: TheGrimm.5624

TheGrimm.5624

Will have to add in another disagree to the OP. Risk=reward. Harder content should reward more since it requires more investment into the activity. I can agree with not making it mandatory but I strongly disagree with less effort = same rewards. I can also support the above statements that the rewards should be tradable so that players that may want something but do not acquire it for themselves can still acquire it via the TP. Likewise as previously stated ANet typically does not release rewards that are higher quality as in stats but tend to focus on increasing the overall chance of more rarer items. Considering PvE is the content that goes stale the quickest we do need improved AI and combat and therefore increased difficulty. If people just step into the new areas and can just spam 1 then people will quickly melt away from the game. People need see a stabbycat and pause for a second versus feel like they can rush into a pack of them while being partially tabbed out of game.

Now granted one day we might have player run NPCs to keep things fresh, but we aren’t there yet in this game.

GW/PoTBS/WAR/Rift/WAR/GW2/CU

De Mortuis Nil Nisi Bonum.

Some people don't like hard mode

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Posted by: Draknar.5748

Draknar.5748

Challenge for the sake of challenge? why would you even play this game for the sake of challenge?? If I want a challenge, theres a plethora of “challenging” games that are head and shoulders above gw2 in terms of “challenge”

MMORPGs in general , in their nature are NOT played for saying “i’m just doing challenging stuff for the sake of challenge”.

SSC failed because it got boring REAL QUICK and the LOOT was terrible compared to farming champ trains or orr. Thus, DEAD CONTENT. That’s what happened to every freaking thing in PvE leading up to silverwastes. In terms of PvE content, No one even bothers to venture outside silverwastes unless its for a daily dung/frac run. That’s what happens when you have no unique reward system or progression. All maps/content are dead except the 1 thats giving the most gold/hour…

Don’t tell me that, I already knew that it’s all about the loot and perceived feelings of superiority.

Just read the thread from the beginning and see how people complained how it’s not about the loot when I said so. I just waited patiently till you guys admit it to yourselves, so I can post an “aha” post.

So .. “aha”?

It has nothing to do with superiority and everything to do with feeling like you have been proportionately rewarded for the challenge. If you could get the same rewards for far less effort, no one would ever do the harder content.

I guarantee you that if the reward for completing the hardest fractals was 50g and not even an exclusive item we would be happy as clams, because then we’d feel as though our effort was proportionately rewarded. Whatever the reward may be, it should always be proportionately based on the difficulty of the content. An exclusive skin/item is a worthy substitute for gold so you won’t hear us complaining. But I could give a kitten less if anyone knew I completed that content, I just want to be properly rewarded for it, whatever that reward may be.

I have a feeling, though, that if the reward for high level fractals was simply lots of gold, that you guys would still be complaining how it isn’t fair….

I won’t stop because I can’t stop.

It’s a medical condition, they say its terminal….

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Posted by: TheGrimm.5624

TheGrimm.5624

It has nothing to do with superiority and everything to do with feeling like you have been proportionately rewarded for the challenge. If you could get the same rewards for far less effort, no one would ever do the harder content.

I guarantee you that if the reward for completing the hardest fractals was 50g and not even an exclusive item we would be happy as clams, because then we’d feel as though our effort was proportionately rewarded. Whatever the reward may be, it should always be proportionately based on the difficulty of the content. An exclusive skin/item is a worthy substitute for gold so you won’t hear us complaining. But I could give a kitten less if anyone knew I completed that content, I just want to be properly rewarded for it, whatever that reward may be.

I have a feeling, though, that if the reward for high level fractals was simply lots of gold, that you guys would still be complaining how it isn’t fair….

Fractals are a great example. I didn’t do fractals till a few months ago. By skipping them I was choosing not to do them and therefore didn’t have access to their vendors. I was ok with this since I choose not to take on that challenge. Also ANet gave me alternate ways to access some of the items just in different forms. Simple example, I could acquire 20 slot bags via crafting, other events and other vendors. Same with ascended jewelry. I can get them from fractal vendors or from other vendors like WvW or laurels. Now when I am doing a high level fractal I do expect to have better odds of getting quality drops from them over drops from killing a random mob in Queensdale.

So do I expect ANet to have alternate ways to acquire new items of interest? Yes, they have done so in the past. Do I expect to work for them, I hope so. Do I think they will have some sort of cross this line or die content, no they are usually pretty good at inviting the players into content versus forcing them into it. Good gaming!

GW/PoTBS/WAR/Rift/WAR/GW2/CU

De Mortuis Nil Nisi Bonum.

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Posted by: PorceleinEve.2973

PorceleinEve.2973

aha what?

aha, it was for the loot all along, and not for the challenge as some of you were claiming in the beginning of this thread.

What exactly are you “ahaing”

snip snap

Most of the ppl are just hoping that this new “challenging content” DOES NOT add more scraps to the system… theres enough of this… what there isn’t enough of is UNIQUE reward/progression.

that it is for the loot all along and not the need to be challenged. I think challenge doesn’t play into it at all, it’s the loot that makes it important.

I think you’ll be dissappointed friend, they seem to be moving the game into a more grindy state, not a reduced one. If there are unique rewards, I would expect them to be really really grindy.

As for progression we don’t get to choose it seems, we’ll all have to grind the same masteries till we get them all, so whatever area locked progression we’ll be getting with this expansion the one thing you can be sure of, is that it’s not going to be unique in any way. We’ll train gliders and mushrooms first then slowly (but I hope not painfully slow) we’ll also grind everything else.

It has nothing to do with superiority and everything to do with feeling like you have been proportionately rewarded for the challenge. If you could get the same rewards for far less effort, no one would ever do the harder content.

I beg to differ, but that’s based on personal experience and that has little value when applying it to the whole.

So do I expect ANet to have alternate ways to acquire new items of interest? Yes, they have done so in the past. Do I expect to work for them, I hope so. Do I think they will have some sort of cross this line or die content, no they are usually pretty good at inviting the players into content versus forcing them into it. Good gaming!

Yeah, they probably will add them. And the grind will be glorious or horrible, depending on how you feel about the grind.
If they stick to that, that would be great, if they don’t, and they start the forcing stuff, they’ll hurt for it (personal opinion, to be verified or dismissed by the results).

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Posted by: Serious.7083

Serious.7083

I agree with this sentiment completely.

The guy who gets the super rare drop can hold onto it or get rich by selling it. Either way he is greatly rewarded for participating in the content that produced the drop. Meanwhile the player who doesn’t care for content X can farm content Y to finance his purchase of the item. Its a win/win.

[/quote]

While the one who gets the super rare drop is lucky all of the other people who were there and participated just as much were not lucky. One person gets a precursor while the rest do not. That makes the reward system in GW2 a lottery.

Beyond that is hard slog and farming.

There is no win/win, just as there was no win/win in GW1. Win/win would mean that everyone who put in the effort would get the same reward.

On the other side there is very little that I consider elite content in GW2, most people should be capable of doing the content, if they wish to.

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Posted by: SkiTz.4590

SkiTz.4590

aha what?

aha, it was for the loot all along, and not for the challenge as some of you were claiming in the beginning of this thread.

What exactly are you “ahaing”

snip snap

Most of the ppl are just hoping that this new “challenging content” DOES NOT add more scraps to the system… theres enough of this… what there isn’t enough of is UNIQUE reward/progression.

that it is for the loot all along and not the need to be challenged. I think challenge doesn’t play into it at all, it’s the loot that makes it important.

I think you’ll be dissappointed friend, they seem to be moving the game into a more grindy state, not a reduced one. If there are unique rewards, I would expect them to be really really grindy.

As for progression we don’t get to choose it seems, we’ll all have to grind the same masteries till we get them all, so whatever area locked progression we’ll be getting with this expansion the one thing you can be sure of, is that it’s not going to be unique in any way. We’ll train gliders and mushrooms first then slowly (but I hope not painfully slow) we’ll also grind everything else.

No I don’t think I’ll be disappointed.
A lot of ppl don’t mind grind, its an MMORPG afterall…. ppl who play MMORPGs know exactly that there will always be some kind of grind, even in PvP or PvE…. good thing here is that grind does not equate to more powerful stats, or powercreep and what not… its just an aesthetic grind…

As far as your challenge/loot theory…. you have no basis for that because there is NO highly challenging AND highly rewarding content in this game.

Currently , high lvl fractals are probably the most difficult PvE content but clearly not very rewarding at all… yet people still do them on a daily basis don’t they?? why? because SOME ppl still find it fun to do, especially with friends/guildies, some ppl still trying to find their frac skin, some enjoy this type of content and there is clearly a lack of it..

Some people don't like hard mode

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Posted by: Serious.7083

Serious.7083

It has nothing to do with superiority and everything to do with feeling like you have been proportionately rewarded for the challenge. If you could get the same rewards for far less effort, no one would ever do the harder content.

I guarantee you that if the reward for completing the hardest fractals was 50g and not even an exclusive item we would be happy as clams, because then we’d feel as though our effort was proportionately rewarded. Whatever the reward may be, it should always be proportionately based on the difficulty of the content. An exclusive skin/item is a worthy substitute for gold so you won’t hear us complaining. But I could give a kitten less if anyone knew I completed that content, I just want to be properly rewarded for it, whatever that reward may be.

I have a feeling, though, that if the reward for high level fractals was simply lots of gold, that you guys would still be complaining how it isn’t fair….

I have done lvl 50 fractals and I have got better loot for much less effort elsewhere, it is fairly easy if you know what to farm and where. A rare or unique skin is only worthwhile if you like it, otherwise fractal skins are not tradeable.

That hasn’t stopped me doing high level fractals or WvW or any of the other stuff I do in game. I often do stuff because it is challenging, not because it is easy or has valuable loot.

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Posted by: dsslive.8473

dsslive.8473

aha what?

aha, it was for the loot all along, and not for the challenge as some of you were claiming in the beginning of this thread.

What exactly are you “ahaing”

snip snap

Most of the ppl are just hoping that this new “challenging content” DOES NOT add more scraps to the system… theres enough of this… what there isn’t enough of is UNIQUE reward/progression.

that it is for the loot all along and not the need to be challenged. I think challenge doesn’t play into it at all, it’s the loot that makes it important.

And why can’t it be both? To be able to complete challenging content and actually get appropriately rewarded for it? Why would you see it kitten black and white instead of how it actually is, gray.

I want challenging content, i want to be able to have to work on getting better and yes, i like there to be a reward for actually getting better and managing to complete said challenging content. Not to show off or “flaunt my superiority” , but because i want to feel i accomplished something. And have something to show for that. For all i care all everyone else sees is the low quality models that show no detail at all, as long as i can enjoy something that i worked for.

Not every player feels the need to be a special little snowflake, most people in this thread aren’t defending unique rewards because they wanna show everyone else they are better than them (i’m sure you’ll find people like that, but to say everyone is is just 100% wrong) , what they are saying is that people who manage to complete something challenging shouldn’t feel like it didn’t matter, like it’s unimportant, they want to feel rewarded for putting in the time to learn the mechanics and to learn how to complete the fights. And there is absolutely nothing wrong with that.

What i am all for, however, is a token system, you get x amount of tokens at first boss/lowest lvl/etc and that amount rises the higher you go. Similar to fractals. But just like fractal skins, you have to do the content to get the item related to it. Instead of grinding and grinding for gold and buy it of the trading post.