Guild Wars 2

CorrynnStarr.7942:

So tell me… is everyone going to be able to advance to the legendary league? or are only the teams that are the most skilled gonna dominate this league? Cuz in order to get the LEGENDARY version of the back piece… you will have to be a skilled player working in this top tier league.

Not everyone will be able to get it.
Does that really matter?
Are you that materialistic that you define your fun by the rewards you get from a game rather than actually playing it? ( in this case an exclusive virtual backpiece.)

I know that in most grinding farmer zombie minds they have fun obtaining more and more and more. It reminds me of that skinner box , where people expect if they press a button long enough or perform the same task for hours on end they get everything they ever wanted.

Maybe some of you need to stop playing, as it might be healthier for your own sake. Some of you all seem to be talking like a bunch of addicts that will revolt when they lose the illusion that they suddenly can’t have a few items.

Oh kitten, you need to actually perform different tasks!
Are you guys even really playing the game at all? I don’t think so. The game has become worthless for you a long time ago, and you’ve forgotten that you’re not playing much more than a glorified mobile game where you tap on every single “farm” and get your reward as long as you keep tapping that farm.

The game needs to move away from this cheap casual trapbox and turn back into a game again.

phys.7689:

Ashen.2907:

Vayne.8563:

People are fond of comparing this game to Guild Wars 1. There was very little in Guild Wars 1 that couldn’t be purchased with gold. Arguably, the hardest weapons to attain were the weapons from DOA, or maybe rare stuff like the celestial compass, the bonecage scythe, the frog scepter or the voltaic spear.

All these high end items were available to sell. You didn’t have to be great to get them. You could farm feathers in a low end zone over and over till you could afford to purchase them.

No one in Guild Wars 1 seemed that riled that their rewards weren’t exclusive. It allowed players who wanted challenge to do challenging content and profit. It allowed less intense players to have the rewards.

I think this is the best solution all the way around.

To those who support those hard core rewards, I guarantee you if there are enough rewards casual players can’t get, you won’t have enough players left to continue running the game. Casuals, in my opinion, make a vast percentage of the playerbase. The more you put out of their reach, the more of them you lose.

I agree with this sentiment completely.

The guy who gets the super rare drop can hold onto it or get rich by selling it. Either way he is greatly rewarded for participating in the content that produced the drop. Meanwhile the player who doesn’t care for content X can farm content Y to finance his purchase of the item. Its a win/win.

this isnt about item rarity though, its about reward vs difficulty. there can be many people who do something that is challenging.

The thing is everyone will still have the option of buying a slot in a party selling runs.

Anet is never going to be able to release content that is so hard that it perpetually prevents people from selling slots for it. People will eventually figure out the encounters enough to cheese their way through.

Keeping things out of the TP doesn’t indefinitely lock casuals out of access. It simply prevents the content from being cheapened further.

Vayne.8563:

Harper.4173:

Vayne.8563:

maddoctor.2738:

Vayne.8563:

maddoctor.2738:

Vayne.8563:

maddoctor.2738:

Vayne.8563:

Do you really think that casual players will just sit around and watch better players get all kinds of cool stuff, while they sit in the wings? Some will, sure, but what percentage. That’s the hundred thousand dollar question.

And how many players are leaving the game because of the grind, grind, grind and luck involved? How many players who used to be collectors in other games do not collect anything in this one because there is such a grind or rng involved to collect things? How many of those already left? How many players that write guides and try to make the game better for everyone still play waiting for something more to come? How long do you think all those kinds of players (including casual mini collectors) will stay in the game if everything they want is behind an endless grind?

I don’t know. But I do know that without that grind, even with challenging content, there is no MMO. No company can make content fast enough for people who play all the time to be satisfied. No company has done it yet. You seem to equate the grind with hard content getting good rewards.

I don’t. I equate the grind with the idea that to keep people playing there really aren’t any options. You can do it like some games do, and make the drops very rare in a specific raid (or a fractal weapon skin), or you can make the grind so that anyone can get it, but it takes a while.

If you see another option I’d sure like to hear it.

Or put the rewards behind challenging content that will make the majority of players much longer to get. Much like how hard it was/is to get the Dungeon Master achievement unless you master a fight like Simin. It took players months to get that fight right, but now it’s “farm” mode for those who mastered it and at least much more doable for everyone else.

Do you believe the majority of players have dungeon master? I’d love for someone from Anet to come and tell us what percentage of players have it. I do, but I know that 90% of my guild doesn’t. Those are the very rewards that need to be used sparingly, or you risk losing the casuals.

And why don’t they have it? It’s not like it’s hard to get now with all the spot selling going around. Or all the guides written about it, or maybe asking for help from a dungeon master, there are more than enough willing to teach all the dungeons even to total newcomers. The actual dungeon community is very casual-friendly (not the kind of reward seekers on the LFG tool)

Those who don’t have Dungeon Master, simply don’t want to have it.

You really don’t get it. Do you know how many people have never entered a dungeon and don’t KNOW about paths being sold. You can only see this from the point of view of a forum poster. Of people who frequent websites. Of people who join guilds.

People don’t have it, because it’s really really far out of their comfort zone. It’s not that it’s not attainable, it’s that it’s SEEN as not attainable. You can believe all you want that people know that they can get this, but I’m pretty sure a healthy percentage of the playerbase doesn’t know if you use a skill while downed and trying to rez yourself that it interrupts it.

Yes, I agree most people who frequent these forums know you can buy runs. But I know quite a few people who walked into a dungeon solo, got killed at the first encounter and never went near one again.

So why don’t they step up their game? Because simply sitting in your comfort zone isn’t an option anywhere – so why should it be here?

If they player base is that bad -they should get better – because the player base you describe is so far out of touch with the game and incompetent that designing a game for them must be hell for any developer.

Where are the good old days where if you were bad you simply tried to get better instead of demanding the content be more suited to your “needs”.
I’m not staying content should be incredibly hard – but if the bar is set so low how are people going to improve? Ultimately allowing them every benefit while still within their comfort zone is a really good way to lose players via boredom.

Also – how can one person just “walk into a dungeon solo” when the pop-up that appears when attempting to enter the dungeon clearly states you need more than one person.

These people you mention don’t really have a problem with Gw2 – their core problem is reading comprehension. I don’t think they should be taken into account when designing a game.

You can say what you like about this, but it doesn’t change anything. Those people exist, they exist in numbers, and your personal belief isn’t going to change how they behave. You can say it’s wrong from today till next year and it will change nothing. These people are out there. They form, in my opinion, a significant percentage of this game (and every MMO’s) population.

They didn’t come here to play a competitive game. They didn’t come here to “get better”. They didn’t want a job or stress when they sit down to play. And you telling them they’re wrong for feeling that way won’t change a thing.

The question is are they more numerous, or are hardcore players. That’s really the only question.

I would guess that casual players are more numerous than either hardcore or the people you describe (who are engaged to a degree that I would describe as being far less than even casual.

Casual players do play the game. They bother to pick specs and perhaps even make a conscious decision about traits, gear, etc. They engage with the mechanics of the game as well as its content, albeit to a lesser degree than a hardcore player.

Someone who is not interested in the game to even a casual degree cannot be a focus for balancing the game, its contents, rewards, etc. A game so balanced around such players would need to provide all rewards upon login. These rewards would need to be auto-equipped or applied because these players might not be willing to read the pop ups indicating that they received the rewards. Monsters and villains would need to fall over dead upon the arrival of such a players’ character in their vicinity. And generally anything resembling, “game,” about the game would need to be removed.

phys.7689:

Ashen.2907:

Vayne.8563:

People are fond of comparing this game to Guild Wars 1. There was very little in Guild Wars 1 that couldn’t be purchased with gold. Arguably, the hardest weapons to attain were the weapons from DOA, or maybe rare stuff like the celestial compass, the bonecage scythe, the frog scepter or the voltaic spear.

All these high end items were available to sell. You didn’t have to be great to get them. You could farm feathers in a low end zone over and over till you could afford to purchase them.

No one in Guild Wars 1 seemed that riled that their rewards weren’t exclusive. It allowed players who wanted challenge to do challenging content and profit. It allowed less intense players to have the rewards.

I think this is the best solution all the way around.

To those who support those hard core rewards, I guarantee you if there are enough rewards casual players can’t get, you won’t have enough players left to continue running the game. Casuals, in my opinion, make a vast percentage of the playerbase. The more you put out of their reach, the more of them you lose.

I agree with this sentiment completely.

The guy who gets the super rare drop can hold onto it or get rich by selling it. Either way he is greatly rewarded for participating in the content that produced the drop. Meanwhile the player who doesn’t care for content X can farm content Y to finance his purchase of the item. Its a win/win.

this isnt about item rarity though, its about reward vs difficulty. there can be many people who do something that is challenging.

It sort of is about rarity though.

A reward that requires above average skill to attain will be more rare, and likely more valuable if tradable, than less rare items. The difficult content, therefore provides greater reward than less difficult content.

CorrynnStarr.7942:

there is no problem with good players getting good skins, this is the last time im going to say this so pay attention to what I say! HAVE YOUR HARD CONTENT, THATS NOT THE PROBLEM… the issue is gating it to the top 2% of players in the whole game. It needs to be accessible to a wider range of players. The way they have outlined it is, only players in the top tier of the legendary league will be able to get all the required items to make the legendary pack. So unless they have changed this recently and someone can post a link, I assume its still the standard to go by. not everybody can be in the top tier if you lose pips and tiers by losing matches etc… ergo, these items will be exclusive to the top 2% of players… whether that threshold is 10 players or 100 players is up to anet. but with a touted 450,000 players active and online, that’s an awful lot of people left without any ability to get this item. just find a better way for christs sake, that’s all were asking, we don’t care if its hard, just don’t make it impossible.

No. sPvp needs all the love it can get. It’s been a neglected game mode and now Anet is trying hard to develop it more and give it the love it needs. Leagues is part of it, but it needs strong rewards/incentives. Want that legendary? You’re going to have to work your kitten off for it. I’m hoping this encourages people who have never stepped into pvp to maybe give it a go. Hell, I’m seriously thinking about it myself. And for certain people who say things like “go play sports or chess if you want to be competitive” well given how Anet is pushing the esports scene you are wrong. Anet wants spvp to be very competitive. Otherwise they wouldn’t be pushing these tournaments and creating the leagues. And yes, there will be exclusive rewards. That’s the game they are creating, you are going to have to live with that or move on.

And I’m saying all this as someone who is NOT pvp player. I may not be a pvper, but I want to see the scene be brought back to life. I want it to thrive. I want it to be a success.

And I don’t think anyone here is saying the more casual players shouldn’t get anything. Of course, they need something cool to work towards as well. But no, they don’t need THAT particular skin. And no, they aren’t going to leave in droves if they can’t get that particular skin. They haven’t left yet after not getting things currently in the game that are difficult to get, they aren’t going to leave over this either. As long as their are rewards enough for them to work towards there should not be a problem here.

This ain’t paralympics where everybody is a winner.

Otherwise i want my free HoT because why not.

Ashen.2907:

phys.7689:

Ashen.2907:

Vayne.8563:

People are fond of comparing this game to Guild Wars 1. There was very little in Guild Wars 1 that couldn’t be purchased with gold. Arguably, the hardest weapons to attain were the weapons from DOA, or maybe rare stuff like the celestial compass, the bonecage scythe, the frog scepter or the voltaic spear.

All these high end items were available to sell. You didn’t have to be great to get them. You could farm feathers in a low end zone over and over till you could afford to purchase them.

No one in Guild Wars 1 seemed that riled that their rewards weren’t exclusive. It allowed players who wanted challenge to do challenging content and profit. It allowed less intense players to have the rewards.

I think this is the best solution all the way around.

To those who support those hard core rewards, I guarantee you if there are enough rewards casual players can’t get, you won’t have enough players left to continue running the game. Casuals, in my opinion, make a vast percentage of the playerbase. The more you put out of their reach, the more of them you lose.

I agree with this sentiment completely.

The guy who gets the super rare drop can hold onto it or get rich by selling it. Either way he is greatly rewarded for participating in the content that produced the drop. Meanwhile the player who doesn’t care for content X can farm content Y to finance his purchase of the item. Its a win/win.

this isnt about item rarity though, its about reward vs difficulty. there can be many people who do something that is challenging.

It sort of is about rarity though.

A reward that requires above average skill to attain will be more rare, and likely more valuable if tradable, than less rare items. The difficult content, therefore provides greater reward than less difficult content.

not really, many rewards are easy but time consuming, those would be more rare than difficult content rewards.
for example when sab was out, way more green swords were generated than bolts, however bolt has no really difficult elements to obtaining it.

also low drop rate items, like a precursor, not challenging at all to get, any enemy can drop it, liadri mini challenging, but many more can be generated (when liadri is available to fight)

phys.7689:

Ashen.2907:

phys.7689:

Ashen.2907:

Vayne.8563:

People are fond of comparing this game to Guild Wars 1. There was very little in Guild Wars 1 that couldn’t be purchased with gold. Arguably, the hardest weapons to attain were the weapons from DOA, or maybe rare stuff like the celestial compass, the bonecage scythe, the frog scepter or the voltaic spear.

All these high end items were available to sell. You didn’t have to be great to get them. You could farm feathers in a low end zone over and over till you could afford to purchase them.

No one in Guild Wars 1 seemed that riled that their rewards weren’t exclusive. It allowed players who wanted challenge to do challenging content and profit. It allowed less intense players to have the rewards.

I think this is the best solution all the way around.

To those who support those hard core rewards, I guarantee you if there are enough rewards casual players can’t get, you won’t have enough players left to continue running the game. Casuals, in my opinion, make a vast percentage of the playerbase. The more you put out of their reach, the more of them you lose.

I agree with this sentiment completely.

The guy who gets the super rare drop can hold onto it or get rich by selling it. Either way he is greatly rewarded for participating in the content that produced the drop. Meanwhile the player who doesn’t care for content X can farm content Y to finance his purchase of the item. Its a win/win.

this isnt about item rarity though, its about reward vs difficulty. there can be many people who do something that is challenging.

It sort of is about rarity though.

A reward that requires above average skill to attain will be more rare, and likely more valuable if tradable, than less rare items. The difficult content, therefore provides greater reward than less difficult content.

not really, many rewards are easy but time consuming, those would be more rare than difficult content rewards.
for example when sab was out, way more green swords were generated than bolts, however bolt has no really difficult elements to obtaining it.

also low drop rate items, like a precursor, not challenging at all to get, any enemy can drop it, liadri mini challenging, but many more can be generated (when liadri is available to fight)

Perhaps, but the post of mine you quoted was in response to one which specifically indicated challenging content:

“It allowed players who wanted challenge to do challenging content and profit.”

I think its more that people want more “Fun and Challenging” End game content rather than crazy hard, alot of us whom played hard in the first year have kind of lost the luster. The dungeons are crazy easy, the pve world is crazy easy and somewhat pointless with the pvp system giving you rewards for those dungeons? PvP can be hard or just outright annoying with some of the teams you get put up against, but in reality there are more people complaining that there is not alot to do. And yes this is sort of true in its own regards?

Think about it, if your not crafting ascended armor/legendary/ascended weapons what are you doing? Farming gold for things you probably wont want, and keep the gold you will never spend? doing events for the chance at loot to again sell or salvage, while sitting in the same spot stacking countlessly again and again? The dungeon mobs being so stupid they don’t even offer much outside of cannon fodder, hoping you get a team that is good but not so good its just like walking through it? Dungeons in this game will not be added, fractals are the only place we will see more of that style content.

The whole guild wars world now is an open world, world boss fest of cluster kittening events that continue to grow more and more borring. These events never really seem to capture the magic that rpg bosses should? Why ? Because they are trying to be edgy and different while taking the easier aspects of other games. Gliders? Archeage. World bosses/wold Events? Rift/WoW.

That and the fact that there are no healers nor tanks its all dps, and thats all this game was meant to be was a dps game. I feel its because they cant handle the ideal or concepts that a real rpg is, this is not an rpg. Its a mmo-fast paced action game with a dull plot. People like me who like playing tanky characters are not really welcomed here because we cant dish out the insane damage in battle, that paired with having no taunt or challenge leaves us kind of holding the bag. Healers would add a new mechanic to the game and make it alot more challenging and fun, you dont have to make them necessary but allow them to be there for those who want them. The content and the concepts of the holy trinity was not bad, nor broken but could be improved on.

All and all, give us back the classes we would like to see. Give us good and fulfilling end game content, with nicer rewards and maybe better looking armor. Make each class feel unique from the last because at this point they all seem way to similar, and make the game colorful and outlandish in the way the world works. Its a fantasy world stop sticking to the whole realism aspect and give us crazy jungles, massive seas and desolate lands destroyed by war. Right now most of the areas look the same outside of orr.

phys.7689:

IndigoSundown.5419:

maddoctor.2738:

Really? So adding a couple of new skins in content not doable by everyone suddenly will force 75% of the playerbase to leave? Out of a million skins they can’t get ONE and it’s the end of the world?

Blatant exaggeration does not help anyone’s position, including yours.

when did people become incapable of parsing literary techniques like hyperbole, analogies metaphors and similies.

did you really think he meant 1 million skins compared to 1? isnt it clear that there is fairly low ratio of exclusive, challenging content gear?

if i say theres a ton of reasons does the weight of the reasons have to equal 2000 lbs?
If i say something killed the fun, do i have to provide a body a motive and an eyewitness to the murder?

It’s not a matter of being able to parse hyperbole, but a negative reaction to its use to belittle and ridicule a point of view. Fwiw, I agree with his point, but not with the way it was made.

dsslive.8473:

Crossaber.8934:

Vayne.8563:

Astralporing.1957:

phys.7689:

i dont think most mmo players want to get everything without playing the game. pretty sure its a very small minority of players than want the dungeon title but dont want to do any dungeons.

Sure, but they might want dungeons they themselves will be able to run. Remember, for a large part of population dungeons, even the really easy ones, are still hard. Forumites, when compared to the rest of the population, are generally exceptionally skilled and esperienced – you shouldn’t assume everyone is around your skill level, or even around you skill potential. There are many players that will never come close, no matter how hard they will try. What you might consider a moderate level of difficulty, that should be cleared by anyone with a little effort, is most likely prohibitively hard to many, many players.

I went into TA this week with a party of five. We didn’t get past the wurms in the beginning after three tries. Two people left the party and with those people replaced, we beat the wurms in no time flat.

Those two people, one of whom was new, one has been playing since launch. Sure eventually they might get it, but everyone has a different discouragement threshold.

Also if dungeons could be soloed, I’m convinced a lot more people would do it. I think it’s looking bad in front of others that prevents many from trying.

Exactly this, I have been desired to obtain Arah heavy legging since launch.(A lv10 noob starring at the dungeon merchant since then….) But almost 3 years passed, i’ve only played arah exp P1 once and i found that it took too long to complete, therefore i’ve never join any arah exp again. And of couse i am never able to obtain the skin until couple days ago i got it from the PvP reward track.

you are not “never able to obtain the skin”. You are compeltely able to obtain it, the point is, you choose not to. There’s quite the difference.

No, it is not my choice.

Time is what i don’t have especially after marrage.

i work till 8pm everyday. 1hr transport to home. i have to start cooking with my wife, about 10pm we’ve done dinner, since then we need to clean up and i am only able to play while she is bathing. That 15-20mins period sometimes not enough for me to finish 1 pvp match.

Every time i contents that require longer playtime, i will have to afk here and there to take care family matters. Therefore i only party with RL friends. We understand each other and we all have needs to attent to family problems.

You are lucky for having so many luxery time to play. I dont because most of my time is working. I live in the most expensive housing city in the world. I have a good salary job which is well above average. But i do not own a house and if i want to, i need to save up all my earnings for 17years no spending a penny to buy a small flat at CURRENT price if the housing got no inflation for that period.

There are many players that only play for casual for entertainment only. I like the way pvp now even i am no pvpers, i can still slowly obtain the skin i desired.

Crossaber.8934:

dsslive.8473:

Crossaber.8934:

Vayne.8563:

Astralporing.1957:

phys.7689:

i dont think most mmo players want to get everything without playing the game. pretty sure its a very small minority of players than want the dungeon title but dont want to do any dungeons.

Sure, but they might want dungeons they themselves will be able to run. Remember, for a large part of population dungeons, even the really easy ones, are still hard. Forumites, when compared to the rest of the population, are generally exceptionally skilled and esperienced – you shouldn’t assume everyone is around your skill level, or even around you skill potential. There are many players that will never come close, no matter how hard they will try. What you might consider a moderate level of difficulty, that should be cleared by anyone with a little effort, is most likely prohibitively hard to many, many players.

I went into TA this week with a party of five. We didn’t get past the wurms in the beginning after three tries. Two people left the party and with those people replaced, we beat the wurms in no time flat.

Those two people, one of whom was new, one has been playing since launch. Sure eventually they might get it, but everyone has a different discouragement threshold.

Also if dungeons could be soloed, I’m convinced a lot more people would do it. I think it’s looking bad in front of others that prevents many from trying.

Exactly this, I have been desired to obtain Arah heavy legging since launch.(A lv10 noob starring at the dungeon merchant since then….) But almost 3 years passed, i’ve only played arah exp P1 once and i found that it took too long to complete, therefore i’ve never join any arah exp again. And of couse i am never able to obtain the skin until couple days ago i got it from the PvP reward track.

you are not “never able to obtain the skin”. You are compeltely able to obtain it, the point is, you choose not to. There’s quite the difference.

No, it is not my choice.

Time is what i don’t have especially after marrage.

i work till 8pm everyday. 1hr transport to home. i have to start cooking with my wife, about 10pm we’ve done dinner, since then we need to clean up and i am only able to play while she is bathing. That 15-20mins period sometimes not enough for me to finish 1 pvp match.

Every time i contents that require longer playtime, i will have to afk here and there to take care family matters. Therefore i only party with RL friends. We understand each other and we all have needs to attent to family problems.

You are lucky for having so many luxery time to play. I dont because most of my time is working. I live in the most expensive housing city in the world. I have a good salary job which is well above average. But i do not own a house and if i want to, i need to save up all my earnings for 17years no spending a penny to buy a small flat at CURRENT price if the housing got no inflation for that period.

There are many players that only play for casual for entertainment only. I like the way pvp now even i am no pvpers, i can still slowly obtain the skin i desired.

You’re cooking with your wife instead of playing? You’re going to your high paying job? You’re choosing to put those as priority over the game. As you should but still, the people with more time can afford to spend it on gaming. It’s a bummer not everyone has it but it’s part of being an adult. Choose to help your wife or choose to get shiny gear. Your choice

Crossaber.8934:

dsslive.8473:

Crossaber.8934:

Vayne.8563:

Astralporing.1957:

phys.7689:

i dont think most mmo players want to get everything without playing the game. pretty sure its a very small minority of players than want the dungeon title but dont want to do any dungeons.

Sure, but they might want dungeons they themselves will be able to run. Remember, for a large part of population dungeons, even the really easy ones, are still hard. Forumites, when compared to the rest of the population, are generally exceptionally skilled and esperienced – you shouldn’t assume everyone is around your skill level, or even around you skill potential. There are many players that will never come close, no matter how hard they will try. What you might consider a moderate level of difficulty, that should be cleared by anyone with a little effort, is most likely prohibitively hard to many, many players.

I went into TA this week with a party of five. We didn’t get past the wurms in the beginning after three tries. Two people left the party and with those people replaced, we beat the wurms in no time flat.

Those two people, one of whom was new, one has been playing since launch. Sure eventually they might get it, but everyone has a different discouragement threshold.

Also if dungeons could be soloed, I’m convinced a lot more people would do it. I think it’s looking bad in front of others that prevents many from trying.

Exactly this, I have been desired to obtain Arah heavy legging since launch.(A lv10 noob starring at the dungeon merchant since then….) But almost 3 years passed, i’ve only played arah exp P1 once and i found that it took too long to complete, therefore i’ve never join any arah exp again. And of couse i am never able to obtain the skin until couple days ago i got it from the PvP reward track.

you are not “never able to obtain the skin”. You are compeltely able to obtain it, the point is, you choose not to. There’s quite the difference.

No, it is not my choice.

Time is what i don’t have especially after marrage.

i work till 8pm everyday. 1hr transport to home. i have to start cooking with my wife, about 10pm we’ve done dinner, since then we need to clean up and i am only able to play while she is bathing. That 15-20mins period sometimes not enough for me to finish 1 pvp match.

Every time i contents that require longer playtime, i will have to afk here and there to take care family matters. Therefore i only party with RL friends. We understand each other and we all have needs to attent to family problems.

You are lucky for having so many luxery time to play. I dont because most of my time is working. I live in the most expensive housing city in the world. I have a good salary job which is well above average. But i do not own a house and if i want to, i need to save up all my earnings for 17years no spending a penny to buy a small flat at CURRENT price if the housing got no inflation for that period.

There are many players that only play for casual for entertainment only. I like the way pvp now even i am no pvpers, i can still slowly obtain the skin i desired.

You are obviously not going to get something that requires a lot of dedication and grind and continually increase in your skill with your real life situation. Luckily there are very few things that require such dedication…
however, PvP legendary backpeice is NOT for someone that can only afford to play 1-2 pvp matches a day…….
if you have a problem with it, too bad.
This backpeice is meant as the endgame reward of your time and dedication to honing your craft in the PvP scene….. its completely meaningless if you 100% of the population can obtain it playing a few hours here and there….

SkiTz.4590:

Crossaber.8934:

dsslive.8473:

Crossaber.8934:

Vayne.8563:

Astralporing.1957:

phys.7689:

i dont think most mmo players want to get everything without playing the game. pretty sure its a very small minority of players than want the dungeon title but dont want to do any dungeons.

Sure, but they might want dungeons they themselves will be able to run. Remember, for a large part of population dungeons, even the really easy ones, are still hard. Forumites, when compared to the rest of the population, are generally exceptionally skilled and esperienced – you shouldn’t assume everyone is around your skill level, or even around you skill potential. There are many players that will never come close, no matter how hard they will try. What you might consider a moderate level of difficulty, that should be cleared by anyone with a little effort, is most likely prohibitively hard to many, many players.

I went into TA this week with a party of five. We didn’t get past the wurms in the beginning after three tries. Two people left the party and with those people replaced, we beat the wurms in no time flat.

Those two people, one of whom was new, one has been playing since launch. Sure eventually they might get it, but everyone has a different discouragement threshold.

Also if dungeons could be soloed, I’m convinced a lot more people would do it. I think it’s looking bad in front of others that prevents many from trying.

Exactly this, I have been desired to obtain Arah heavy legging since launch.(A lv10 noob starring at the dungeon merchant since then….) But almost 3 years passed, i’ve only played arah exp P1 once and i found that it took too long to complete, therefore i’ve never join any arah exp again. And of couse i am never able to obtain the skin until couple days ago i got it from the PvP reward track.

you are not “never able to obtain the skin”. You are compeltely able to obtain it, the point is, you choose not to. There’s quite the difference.

No, it is not my choice.

Time is what i don’t have especially after marrage.

i work till 8pm everyday. 1hr transport to home. i have to start cooking with my wife, about 10pm we’ve done dinner, since then we need to clean up and i am only able to play while she is bathing. That 15-20mins period sometimes not enough for me to finish 1 pvp match.

Every time i contents that require longer playtime, i will have to afk here and there to take care family matters. Therefore i only party with RL friends. We understand each other and we all have needs to attent to family problems.

You are lucky for having so many luxery time to play. I dont because most of my time is working. I live in the most expensive housing city in the world. I have a good salary job which is well above average. But i do not own a house and if i want to, i need to save up all my earnings for 17years no spending a penny to buy a small flat at CURRENT price if the housing got no inflation for that period.

There are many players that only play for casual for entertainment only. I like the way pvp now even i am no pvpers, i can still slowly obtain the skin i desired.

You are obviously not going to get something that requires a lot of dedication and grind and continually increase in your skill with your real life situation. Luckily there are very few things that require such dedication…
however, PvP legendary backpeice is NOT for someone that can only afford to play 1-2 pvp matches a day…….
if you have a problem with it, too bad.
This backpeice is meant as the endgame reward of your time and dedication to honing your craft in the PvP scene….. its completely meaningless if you 100% of the population can obtain it playing a few hours here and there….

Luckily i can live with that.

Just like legendary, i have 0 desire to own one since launch, and i was lucky that a precursor smiled on me, which took me over 6 months to finally crafted my sunrise. And this is it, thats probably my only legendary able to obtain.

Fractal skins, dungeon mastery, WvW, PvP tournament these are mostly out of my reach. If i am lucky i can hop in a 40% SW and finish 1 VW thats already made my day.

But I wish those contents can also be obtainable by playing casually here and there in a much slower pace.

Zalavaaris.5329:

Crossaber.8934:

dsslive.8473:

Crossaber.8934:

Vayne.8563:

Astralporing.1957:

phys.7689:

i dont think most mmo players want to get everything without playing the game. pretty sure its a very small minority of players than want the dungeon title but dont want to do any dungeons.

Sure, but they might want dungeons they themselves will be able to run. Remember, for a large part of population dungeons, even the really easy ones, are still hard. Forumites, when compared to the rest of the population, are generally exceptionally skilled and esperienced – you shouldn’t assume everyone is around your skill level, or even around you skill potential. There are many players that will never come close, no matter how hard they will try. What you might consider a moderate level of difficulty, that should be cleared by anyone with a little effort, is most likely prohibitively hard to many, many players.

I went into TA this week with a party of five. We didn’t get past the wurms in the beginning after three tries. Two people left the party and with those people replaced, we beat the wurms in no time flat.

Those two people, one of whom was new, one has been playing since launch. Sure eventually they might get it, but everyone has a different discouragement threshold.

Also if dungeons could be soloed, I’m convinced a lot more people would do it. I think it’s looking bad in front of others that prevents many from trying.

Exactly this, I have been desired to obtain Arah heavy legging since launch.(A lv10 noob starring at the dungeon merchant since then….) But almost 3 years passed, i’ve only played arah exp P1 once and i found that it took too long to complete, therefore i’ve never join any arah exp again. And of couse i am never able to obtain the skin until couple days ago i got it from the PvP reward track.

you are not “never able to obtain the skin”. You are compeltely able to obtain it, the point is, you choose not to. There’s quite the difference.

No, it is not my choice.

Time is what i don’t have especially after marrage.

i work till 8pm everyday. 1hr transport to home. i have to start cooking with my wife, about 10pm we’ve done dinner, since then we need to clean up and i am only able to play while she is bathing. That 15-20mins period sometimes not enough for me to finish 1 pvp match.

Every time i contents that require longer playtime, i will have to afk here and there to take care family matters. Therefore i only party with RL friends. We understand each other and we all have needs to attent to family problems.

You are lucky for having so many luxery time to play. I dont because most of my time is working. I live in the most expensive housing city in the world. I have a good salary job which is well above average. But i do not own a house and if i want to, i need to save up all my earnings for 17years no spending a penny to buy a small flat at CURRENT price if the housing got no inflation for that period.

There are many players that only play for casual for entertainment only. I like the way pvp now even i am no pvpers, i can still slowly obtain the skin i desired.

You’re cooking with your wife instead of playing? You’re going to your high paying job? You’re choosing to put those as priority over the game. As you should but still, the people with more time can afford to spend it on gaming. It’s a bummer not everyone has it but it’s part of being an adult. Choose to help your wife or choose to get shiny gear. Your choice

Anet is actually doing fine so far, no necessary gear grind, no lv cap increase.

What I agree with Vague is that, the game should always provide multiple ways to obtain same item.

A) hard contents, faster to obtain
B) casual contents, slower to obtain
C) RNG
D) Buy out

I don’t mind taking months or years to obtain 1 desirable item by option B.

Crossaber.8934:

Zalavaaris.5329:

Crossaber.8934:

dsslive.8473:

Crossaber.8934:

Vayne.8563:

Astralporing.1957:

phys.7689:

i dont think most mmo players want to get everything without playing the game. pretty sure its a very small minority of players than want the dungeon title but dont want to do any dungeons.

Sure, but they might want dungeons they themselves will be able to run. Remember, for a large part of population dungeons, even the really easy ones, are still hard. Forumites, when compared to the rest of the population, are generally exceptionally skilled and esperienced – you shouldn’t assume everyone is around your skill level, or even around you skill potential. There are many players that will never come close, no matter how hard they will try. What you might consider a moderate level of difficulty, that should be cleared by anyone with a little effort, is most likely prohibitively hard to many, many players.

I went into TA this week with a party of five. We didn’t get past the wurms in the beginning after three tries. Two people left the party and with those people replaced, we beat the wurms in no time flat.

Those two people, one of whom was new, one has been playing since launch. Sure eventually they might get it, but everyone has a different discouragement threshold.

Also if dungeons could be soloed, I’m convinced a lot more people would do it. I think it’s looking bad in front of others that prevents many from trying.

Exactly this, I have been desired to obtain Arah heavy legging since launch.(A lv10 noob starring at the dungeon merchant since then….) But almost 3 years passed, i’ve only played arah exp P1 once and i found that it took too long to complete, therefore i’ve never join any arah exp again. And of couse i am never able to obtain the skin until couple days ago i got it from the PvP reward track.

you are not “never able to obtain the skin”. You are compeltely able to obtain it, the point is, you choose not to. There’s quite the difference.

No, it is not my choice.

Time is what i don’t have especially after marrage.

i work till 8pm everyday. 1hr transport to home. i have to start cooking with my wife, about 10pm we’ve done dinner, since then we need to clean up and i am only able to play while she is bathing. That 15-20mins period sometimes not enough for me to finish 1 pvp match.

Every time i contents that require longer playtime, i will have to afk here and there to take care family matters. Therefore i only party with RL friends. We understand each other and we all have needs to attent to family problems.

You are lucky for having so many luxery time to play. I dont because most of my time is working. I live in the most expensive housing city in the world. I have a good salary job which is well above average. But i do not own a house and if i want to, i need to save up all my earnings for 17years no spending a penny to buy a small flat at CURRENT price if the housing got no inflation for that period.

There are many players that only play for casual for entertainment only. I like the way pvp now even i am no pvpers, i can still slowly obtain the skin i desired.

You’re cooking with your wife instead of playing? You’re going to your high paying job? You’re choosing to put those as priority over the game. As you should but still, the people with more time can afford to spend it on gaming. It’s a bummer not everyone has it but it’s part of being an adult. Choose to help your wife or choose to get shiny gear. Your choice

Anet is actually doing fine so far, no necessary gear grind, no lv cap increase.

What I agree with Vague is that, the game should always provide multiple ways to obtain same item.

A) hard contents, faster to obtain
B) casual contents, slower to obtain
C) RNG
D) Buy out

I don’t mind taking months or years to obtain 1 desirable item by option B.

Vague….my new name. I hope that wasn’t a Freudian slip. hahaha

Vayne.8563:

Crossaber.8934:

Zalavaaris.5329:

Crossaber.8934:

dsslive.8473:

Crossaber.8934:

Vayne.8563:

Astralporing.1957:

phys.7689:

i dont think most mmo players want to get everything without playing the game. pretty sure its a very small minority of players than want the dungeon title but dont want to do any dungeons.

Sure, but they might want dungeons they themselves will be able to run. Remember, for a large part of population dungeons, even the really easy ones, are still hard. Forumites, when compared to the rest of the population, are generally exceptionally skilled and esperienced – you shouldn’t assume everyone is around your skill level, or even around you skill potential. There are many players that will never come close, no matter how hard they will try. What you might consider a moderate level of difficulty, that should be cleared by anyone with a little effort, is most likely prohibitively hard to many, many players.

I went into TA this week with a party of five. We didn’t get past the wurms in the beginning after three tries. Two people left the party and with those people replaced, we beat the wurms in no time flat.

Those two people, one of whom was new, one has been playing since launch. Sure eventually they might get it, but everyone has a different discouragement threshold.

Also if dungeons could be soloed, I’m convinced a lot more people would do it. I think it’s looking bad in front of others that prevents many from trying.

Exactly this, I have been desired to obtain Arah heavy legging since launch.(A lv10 noob starring at the dungeon merchant since then….) But almost 3 years passed, i’ve only played arah exp P1 once and i found that it took too long to complete, therefore i’ve never join any arah exp again. And of couse i am never able to obtain the skin until couple days ago i got it from the PvP reward track.

you are not “never able to obtain the skin”. You are compeltely able to obtain it, the point is, you choose not to. There’s quite the difference.

No, it is not my choice.

Time is what i don’t have especially after marrage.

i work till 8pm everyday. 1hr transport to home. i have to start cooking with my wife, about 10pm we’ve done dinner, since then we need to clean up and i am only able to play while she is bathing. That 15-20mins period sometimes not enough for me to finish 1 pvp match.

Every time i contents that require longer playtime, i will have to afk here and there to take care family matters. Therefore i only party with RL friends. We understand each other and we all have needs to attent to family problems.

You are lucky for having so many luxery time to play. I dont because most of my time is working. I live in the most expensive housing city in the world. I have a good salary job which is well above average. But i do not own a house and if i want to, i need to save up all my earnings for 17years no spending a penny to buy a small flat at CURRENT price if the housing got no inflation for that period.

There are many players that only play for casual for entertainment only. I like the way pvp now even i am no pvpers, i can still slowly obtain the skin i desired.

You’re cooking with your wife instead of playing? You’re going to your high paying job? You’re choosing to put those as priority over the game. As you should but still, the people with more time can afford to spend it on gaming. It’s a bummer not everyone has it but it’s part of being an adult. Choose to help your wife or choose to get shiny gear. Your choice

Anet is actually doing fine so far, no necessary gear grind, no lv cap increase.

What I agree with Vague is that, the game should always provide multiple ways to obtain same item.

A) hard contents, faster to obtain
B) casual contents, slower to obtain
C) RNG
D) Buy out

I don’t mind taking months or years to obtain 1 desirable item by option B.

Vague….my new name. I hope that wasn’t a Freudian slip. hahaha

Vagne, sorry folks, hahaha

If you don’t like HM, don’t do it, it is pretty simple. Whereas for the rest of us who want an actual challenge, why try and prevent something like that from being added? It literally has no impact on you at all, even if certain rewards are only available from HM.

Just wanted to put forth an argument against those who don’t want hard content:

Some people like hard content, while others do not. Some people like easy content, while others do not. Preferences like this go in all directions.
So for someone to make an argument such as “all the content should be available to everyone and not bared behind difficulty” is to not realize, or to forget, the above.

Generally speaking (that is to say, barring exceptions such as handicaps) everyone can potentially complete hard content. It doesn’t matter if you’re not skilled enough for now, you can get better and complete it. If you put forth the time and effort, you could complete it. You’re choosing not to.
And that’s a fine choice to make. This is a game, if it’s not something you enjoy and you don’t have a strong enough motive pushing you to do it, then don’t. That’s your choice, it’s a perfectly viable choice to make, and I respect it.
But the same goes for those on the other side. Easy content can be very unengaging, very uninteresting, very unmotivating. Some people want a bit more difficulty in their gaming experience, and won’t stick around for or enjoy overly easy content.
Easy content can be just as exclusionary as hard content to many members of a playerbase.

The reality is, in an MMO, you have to cater to multiple audiences. A wide variety of preferences and game modes. So it’s fine if you don’t like hard content, just as it’s fine to not like overly easy content. Just realize that both content types will likely need to appear in the game. And if you’re not willing to play it, that’s your prerogative.
A spectrum of difficulty is healthy for an MMO. Easy content is an important learning ground, is the basis of for the game, and provides things to do for new players and the masses in general. While hard content acts as a social motivator, deepens the game, and provides something to do for those interested in higher difficulty challenges.

Some users on this thread would probably do this:
“Dear From Software, how dare you make everything available on NG+2 in Dark Souls 2! Don’t you know I need a special unique weapon for beating NG+7 to validate my pathetic life because I am a special snowflake?”

Harder content always does ONE thing in most PC games and nothing else: It limits the player! That’s it. It removes options the player can use to beat it. In the Dark Souls series shields go from a defensive tool to something that gets you killed. And sometimes entire classes become useless in higher difficulties. That is why I don’t like high difficulty. It is too restrictive.

Back to the pvp wings for a moment, you guys (those arguing about it) all need to go and actually read the article.

Only the TITLE is a permanent reward for getting into legendary (the name of the highest division). The current legendaries (name of the highest division) get the shiniest BADGE (like map completion badge). Everyone who competes gets a badge, but legendaries (name of the highest division) get the shiniest.

The SKIN is a legendary (name of the highest gear tier) back item that you earn from league tokens;.
“…all players will have the opportunity to work toward a progression of back items, earning the Wings of Glory. Crossing into a more advanced division will earn you League Tokens. These tokens can be exchanged for the first level of wings, and additional tokens can be exchanged to upgrade your wings to progressively more awesome levels.”

So you can earn it slowly just by crawling up out of the bottom tiers each league, because:
“Division one, the starter division, will only award forward progress. Just getting started? Lose a match? Don’t sweat it; keep at it, and you can get through division one.”

So you can get your sexy wings, even if you suck, just by playing. You get participation tokens just for playing enough each league, with a 50% chance per game (you only play other bottom tiers the article implies, so its a toss which team wins when pugging). Hell, you might even get good/lucky enough to make tier 3, for more tokens per league. The people who are best, in good premade groups, simply can earn it faster (less league seasons until they max it out).

The pvp wings are not locked from anyone, everyone can get them if they are willing to try.

Try to stop being afraid that you won’t get a skin, and just realize that this is gw2 where they use the very successful model of making everyone feel like a winner, whether you are or not. The hard content is GROUP content, you will be carried eventually even if you can’t or don’t want to learn yourself. It will take longer that way, because of the higher chance of failing associated with carrying, but it will be doable. Just make casual groups for it and hope enough decents join to make up for the mehs.

Kashrlyyk.5364:

Some users on this thread would probably do this:
“Dear From Software, how dare you make everything available on NG+2 in Dark Souls 2! Don’t you know I need a special unique weapon for beating NG+7 to validate my pathetic life because I am a special snowflake?”

Harder content always does ONE thing in most PC games and nothing else: It limits the player! That’s it. It removes options the player can use to beat it. In the Dark Souls series shields go from a defensive tool to something that gets you killed. And sometimes entire classes become useless in higher difficulties. That is why I don’t like high difficulty. It is too restrictive.

Harder content in all PC games exist so it provides a fun and engaging challenge for those who want it. There is a reason most PC games have a difficulty slider. There is a reason why lots of PC games have some extra difficult fights somewhere for the extra rewards (not even in the main plot often) so players who want that extra challenge can go for some extra rewards, regardless of the difficulty level. Not everyone likes spamming 11111111 all day long or looting chests in the Silverwastes. That repetitive and boring and not fun or engaging at all, yet all you want is the game to have only this type of content, why?

As much as hard content alienates a specific type of player, easy content alienates another type of player. Having both caters to both, having only one caters to only one of them, disregarding the other. Why can’t we simply have both to keep everyone satisfied?

maddoctor.2738:

the challenging content can remain relevant (and challenging) for a very long time.

If you consider 2 months as very long time, then yes.

(facepalm)

Silicato.4603:

maddoctor.2738:

the challenging content can remain relevant (and challenging) for a very long time.

If you consider 2 months as very long time, then yes.

(facepalm)

You mean in 2 months everyone will be able to do it? That would be a failure of “challenging” content.

phys.7689:

triple trouble takes skill, just you are not the skilled one.

mmmm, so… Now you know me? XD

I command wurms everyday. +300 kills already with my guild.

I just dont think this kind of content is good. It was fun for the first 5 days or the first time you won a reward. But after that, we do it cause there is nothing else to do.

When a new challenging stuff comes up, it will happen the same: after 2 months will be disposable and people will be asking for new content for another 2 months and on and on. And when nothing comes, we will keep doing the same boring and unappealing challenging content.

But to be honest im not worried. I know any real challenge will be nerfed in time, like always. And i know that any challenging content will be lapsed in a few weeks, so from that point, it will no longer be used at its full pace, and will die little by little. Like it deserves :P

maddoctor.2738:

Silicato.4603:

maddoctor.2738:

the challenging content can remain relevant (and challenging) for a very long time.

If you consider 2 months as very long time, then yes.

(facepalm)

You mean in 2 months everyone will be able to do it? That would be a failure of “challenging” content.

What else do you expect? Lol

Kashrlyyk.5364:

Some users on this thread would probably do this:
“Dear From Software, how dare you make everything available on NG+2 in Dark Souls 2! Don’t you know I need a special unique weapon for beating NG+7 to validate my pathetic life because I am a special snowflake?”

Harder content always does ONE thing in most PC games and nothing else: It limits the player! That’s it. It removes options the player can use to beat it. In the Dark Souls series shields go from a defensive tool to something that gets you killed. And sometimes entire classes become useless in higher difficulties. That is why I don’t like high difficulty. It is too restrictive.

Not comparable.

NG is nothing more than an exercise in patience and learning. Gw2 hard content won’t be anywhere near as difficult NG.

Its a skin, not a weapon. Dark souls has weapons defining move sets, gw2 has skins that do nothing other than visuals.

Shields are not meant to face tank, they are means of quick damage reduction to help you if you screw up a dodge (which like gw2 gives a form of invulnerability). You can face tank with um in lower difficulties, allowing everyone to complete the lowest tier for the story.

All “classes” are simply player constructs, that game has an open stat system with weapon choices being the defining “class”. Inefficient combinations get weeded out at higher difficulties, but you can switch pretty easily, especially after a few +’s. The whole game is about making you think and adapt, why do you think + would be different.

And finally, why am I arguing DS2 on gw2 forums…

Silicato.4603:

maddoctor.2738:

Silicato.4603:

maddoctor.2738:

the challenging content can remain relevant (and challenging) for a very long time.

If you consider 2 months as very long time, then yes.

(facepalm)

You mean in 2 months everyone will be able to do it? That would be a failure of “challenging” content.

What else do you expect? Lol

The best of the best might finish it in a week or in days. That doesn’t keep it from being relevant. Remember how long it took for Simin to become doable? Lupicus? Those were the pug killers for a rather long time. You don’t count the difficulty of challenging content by how fast the best of the best will finish it.

I want this…

Arewn.2368:

Just wanted to put forth an argument against those who don’t want hard content:

Some people like hard content, while others do not. Some people like easy content, while others do not. Preferences like this go in all directions.
So for someone to make an argument such as “all the content should be available to everyone and not bared behind difficulty” is to not realize, or to forget, the above.

Generally speaking (that is to say, barring exceptions such as handicaps) everyone can potentially complete hard content. It doesn’t matter if you’re not skilled enough for now, you can get better and complete it. If you put forth the time and effort, you could complete it. You’re choosing not to.
And that’s a fine choice to make. This is a game, if it’s not something you enjoy and you don’t have a strong enough motive pushing you to do it, then don’t. That’s your choice, it’s a perfectly viable choice to make, and I respect it.
But the same goes for those on the other side. Easy content can be very unengaging, very uninteresting, very unmotivating. Some people want a bit more difficulty in their gaming experience, and won’t stick around for or enjoy overly easy content.
Easy content can be just as exclusionary as hard content to many members of a playerbase.

The reality is, in an MMO, you have to cater to multiple audiences. A wide variety of preferences and game modes. So it’s fine if you don’t like hard content, just as it’s fine to not like overly easy content. Just realize that both content types will likely need to appear in the game. And if you’re not willing to play it, that’s your prerogative.
A spectrum of difficulty is healthy for an MMO. Easy content is an important learning ground, is the basis of for the game, and provides things to do for new players and the masses in general. While hard content acts as a social motivator, deepens the game, and provides something to do for those interested in higher difficulty challenges.

I can get better. I can move to another place where there’s better Internet, or less latency. Are you suggesting everyone outside the US move there? lol

Vayne.8563:

Arewn.2368:

Just wanted to put forth an argument against those who don’t want hard content:

Some people like hard content, while others do not. Some people like easy content, while others do not. Preferences like this go in all directions.
So for someone to make an argument such as “all the content should be available to everyone and not bared behind difficulty” is to not realize, or to forget, the above.

Generally speaking (that is to say, barring exceptions such as handicaps) everyone can potentially complete hard content. It doesn’t matter if you’re not skilled enough for now, you can get better and complete it. If you put forth the time and effort, you could complete it. You’re choosing not to.
And that’s a fine choice to make. This is a game, if it’s not something you enjoy and you don’t have a strong enough motive pushing you to do it, then don’t. That’s your choice, it’s a perfectly viable choice to make, and I respect it.
But the same goes for those on the other side. Easy content can be very unengaging, very uninteresting, very unmotivating. Some people want a bit more difficulty in their gaming experience, and won’t stick around for or enjoy overly easy content.
Easy content can be just as exclusionary as hard content to many members of a playerbase.

The reality is, in an MMO, you have to cater to multiple audiences. A wide variety of preferences and game modes. So it’s fine if you don’t like hard content, just as it’s fine to not like overly easy content. Just realize that both content types will likely need to appear in the game. And if you’re not willing to play it, that’s your prerogative.
A spectrum of difficulty is healthy for an MMO. Easy content is an important learning ground, is the basis of for the game, and provides things to do for new players and the masses in general. While hard content acts as a social motivator, deepens the game, and provides something to do for those interested in higher difficulty challenges.

I can get better. I can move to another place where there’s better Internet, or less latency. Are you suggesting everyone outside the US move there? lol

And that’s the kind of reasoning that doesn’t make any sense. So the game should have content that is playable / doable by players that have bad machines or bad internet?

maddoctor.2738:

Vayne.8563:

Arewn.2368:

Just wanted to put forth an argument against those who don’t want hard content:

Some people like hard content, while others do not. Some people like easy content, while others do not. Preferences like this go in all directions.
So for someone to make an argument such as “all the content should be available to everyone and not bared behind difficulty” is to not realize, or to forget, the above.

Generally speaking (that is to say, barring exceptions such as handicaps) everyone can potentially complete hard content. It doesn’t matter if you’re not skilled enough for now, you can get better and complete it. If you put forth the time and effort, you could complete it. You’re choosing not to.
And that’s a fine choice to make. This is a game, if it’s not something you enjoy and you don’t have a strong enough motive pushing you to do it, then don’t. That’s your choice, it’s a perfectly viable choice to make, and I respect it.
But the same goes for those on the other side. Easy content can be very unengaging, very uninteresting, very unmotivating. Some people want a bit more difficulty in their gaming experience, and won’t stick around for or enjoy overly easy content.
Easy content can be just as exclusionary as hard content to many members of a playerbase.

The reality is, in an MMO, you have to cater to multiple audiences. A wide variety of preferences and game modes. So it’s fine if you don’t like hard content, just as it’s fine to not like overly easy content. Just realize that both content types will likely need to appear in the game. And if you’re not willing to play it, that’s your prerogative.
A spectrum of difficulty is healthy for an MMO. Easy content is an important learning ground, is the basis of for the game, and provides things to do for new players and the masses in general. While hard content acts as a social motivator, deepens the game, and provides something to do for those interested in higher difficulty challenges.

I can get better. I can move to another place where there’s better Internet, or less latency. Are you suggesting everyone outside the US move there? lol

And that’s the kind of reasoning that doesn’t make any sense. So the game should have content that is playable / doable by players that have bad machines or bad internet?

It has gone full circle, and we’re only 7 pages in.

Vayne.8563:

dsslive.8473:

Stars.2179:

Actually, there are such thing is non-viable builds a well as game play. Just because Goku or Abe or Wethospu can solo the crap out of everything naked doesn’t mean other people can do it. There are such thing as non-viable way of playing for others and for them, sometimes it IS IMPOSSIBLE!

not sure if this was in reply to my response to the arah guy, but here we go

He already managed to complete arah once, so it’s not out of his reach, the thing is that it simply took too long (all dungeons are gonna take long if you’re doing the for the first time) Instead of sking for help or just joining a party and learning as he goes he decides it’s “out of reach” when it really isn’t. No one is saying he should be able to solo arah naked (i surely can’t), you don’t do dungeons alone, you’re there with a group and most of the times (from my experience) people are totally willing to explain the bossfights and to help (ofcourse there are exceptions).

So no, it’s not “impossible”, he jsut made the decision that it wasn’t worht the effort. And thats a totally valid decision, there are skins i like but i just don’t see it being worth the effort, they aren’t “impossible” to obtain for me though (and i’m far from good). It’s just me weighing their value agaisnt whether i’d enjoy getting them. I rather have fun , than force myself to grind or do something unfun for a skin. And that’s okay, i won’t get that skin , i move on.

Wrong or right, that’s the attitude of a lot of people. This isn’t a job, it’s a game. You play games to have fun. If you don’t find dungeons fun, you don’t do dungeons. If they make it so you can ONLY get rewards from dungeons and you want those rewards, you’re forced to do something you’re not enjoying, at which point, it’s not a game anymore.

Sure anyone CAN do it. I can go to the gym and work out too, but I don’t, because I don’t find it fun. The thing is, I have huge amounts of time to play so it doesn’t matter if some stuff I do isn’t fun for a bit, but people who have less time to play…it becomes a bigger deal. How many of these people are there? What is the threshold before they throw in the towel? It varies from person to person.

But it doesn’t make those people wrong.

“Wrong or right, that’s the attitude of a lot of people. This isn’t a job, it’s a game. "
Indeed, and grind, grind, grind to buy the reward feels like a job, an interesting challenge feels like a game.

maddoctor.2738:

Vayne.8563:

Arewn.2368:

Just wanted to put forth an argument against those who don’t want hard content:

Some people like hard content, while others do not. Some people like easy content, while others do not. Preferences like this go in all directions.
So for someone to make an argument such as “all the content should be available to everyone and not bared behind difficulty” is to not realize, or to forget, the above.

Generally speaking (that is to say, barring exceptions such as handicaps) everyone can potentially complete hard content. It doesn’t matter if you’re not skilled enough for now, you can get better and complete it. If you put forth the time and effort, you could complete it. You’re choosing not to.
And that’s a fine choice to make. This is a game, if it’s not something you enjoy and you don’t have a strong enough motive pushing you to do it, then don’t. That’s your choice, it’s a perfectly viable choice to make, and I respect it.
But the same goes for those on the other side. Easy content can be very unengaging, very uninteresting, very unmotivating. Some people want a bit more difficulty in their gaming experience, and won’t stick around for or enjoy overly easy content.
Easy content can be just as exclusionary as hard content to many members of a playerbase.

The reality is, in an MMO, you have to cater to multiple audiences. A wide variety of preferences and game modes. So it’s fine if you don’t like hard content, just as it’s fine to not like overly easy content. Just realize that both content types will likely need to appear in the game. And if you’re not willing to play it, that’s your prerogative.
A spectrum of difficulty is healthy for an MMO. Easy content is an important learning ground, is the basis of for the game, and provides things to do for new players and the masses in general. While hard content acts as a social motivator, deepens the game, and provides something to do for those interested in higher difficulty challenges.

I can get better. I can move to another place where there’s better Internet, or less latency. Are you suggesting everyone outside the US move there? lol

And that’s the kind of reasoning that doesn’t make any sense. So the game should have content that is playable / doable by players that have bad machines or bad internet?

You keep trying to twist what I’m saying and I’m not going to let you. Have all the content you want that I can’t do because of my location. Don’t lock me off from specific rewards though, because this is a game that everyone in Australia has paid for just like everyone in America and it is absolutely harder for us. To make the content challenging enough for us might be it easier for you. For example, when doing Liadri, that extra .5 seconds is a very long time to be able to see exactly where you are. There were many times I did it and died, even though my machine wasn’t showing anything that killed me. It simply hadn’t updated yet.

So the Liadri mini should be barred from most Australians except the very best? That’s your answer? And it’s not just Australians. It’s people who live in rural areas. It’s people with older machines. Yes, you have to take care of your entire player base, not just the ones who have the best machines in the best locations. That would be considered a normal business practice.

Make the rewards available for something most people can do, and my problems evaporate. Make them tough enough were only a few can do it and with that extra latency I have, I’ll never be able to, and those of us who play from Australia and New Zealand, or those with older machines or bad internet connections can what? Stop playing? Deal with it?

I literally haven’t been able to play Sanctum Sprint for months. Not at all. Can’t finish one single run. That might be fine for you but I think it sucks and I think it’s unfair.

Crossaber.8934:

dsslive.8473:

Crossaber.8934:

Vayne.8563:

Astralporing.1957:

phys.7689:

i dont think most mmo players want to get everything without playing the game. pretty sure its a very small minority of players than want the dungeon title but dont want to do any dungeons.

Sure, but they might want dungeons they themselves will be able to run. Remember, for a large part of population dungeons, even the really easy ones, are still hard. Forumites, when compared to the rest of the population, are generally exceptionally skilled and esperienced – you shouldn’t assume everyone is around your skill level, or even around you skill potential. There are many players that will never come close, no matter how hard they will try. What you might consider a moderate level of difficulty, that should be cleared by anyone with a little effort, is most likely prohibitively hard to many, many players.

I went into TA this week with a party of five. We didn’t get past the wurms in the beginning after three tries. Two people left the party and with those people replaced, we beat the wurms in no time flat.

Those two people, one of whom was new, one has been playing since launch. Sure eventually they might get it, but everyone has a different discouragement threshold.

Also if dungeons could be soloed, I’m convinced a lot more people would do it. I think it’s looking bad in front of others that prevents many from trying.

Exactly this, I have been desired to obtain Arah heavy legging since launch.(A lv10 noob starring at the dungeon merchant since then….) But almost 3 years passed, i’ve only played arah exp P1 once and i found that it took too long to complete, therefore i’ve never join any arah exp again. And of couse i am never able to obtain the skin until couple days ago i got it from the PvP reward track.

you are not “never able to obtain the skin”. You are compeltely able to obtain it, the point is, you choose not to. There’s quite the difference.

No, it is not my choice.

Time is what i don’t have especially after marrage.

i work till 8pm everyday. 1hr transport to home. i have to start cooking with my wife, about 10pm we’ve done dinner, since then we need to clean up and i am only able to play while she is bathing. That 15-20mins period sometimes not enough for me to finish 1 pvp match.

Every time i contents that require longer playtime, i will have to afk here and there to take care family matters. Therefore i only party with RL friends. We understand each other and we all have needs to attent to family problems.

You are lucky for having so many luxery time to play. I dont because most of my time is working. I live in the most expensive housing city in the world. I have a good salary job which is well above average. But i do not own a house and if i want to, i need to save up all my earnings for 17years no spending a penny to buy a small flat at CURRENT price if the housing got no inflation for that period.

There are many players that only play for casual for entertainment only. I like the way pvp now even i am no pvpers, i can still slowly obtain the skin i desired.

You choose to priorities family/work over playing the game (as you should, i priorities my job first too) I get it, you don’t have much time to play, and while i’m sure that sucks it doesn’t mean some of the higher/rarer/more time intensive rewards shouldn’t exist. Like i said earlier in this thread, there’s plenty of skins out of my reach too, but i’m fine with that. I move on and play something i do like. Rewards should be depended pn the difficulty of the content, not on how little time X% of the playerbase has to play.

Arah armor (while there are paths that take like 30m) is out of reach, the way you schedule your time makes it that way. But that doesn’t mean it should be easier to get that’s all i’m saying.

Devata.6589:

Vayne.8563:

dsslive.8473:

Stars.2179:

Actually, there are such thing is non-viable builds a well as game play. Just because Goku or Abe or Wethospu can solo the crap out of everything naked doesn’t mean other people can do it. There are such thing as non-viable way of playing for others and for them, sometimes it IS IMPOSSIBLE!

not sure if this was in reply to my response to the arah guy, but here we go

He already managed to complete arah once, so it’s not out of his reach, the thing is that it simply took too long (all dungeons are gonna take long if you’re doing the for the first time) Instead of sking for help or just joining a party and learning as he goes he decides it’s “out of reach” when it really isn’t. No one is saying he should be able to solo arah naked (i surely can’t), you don’t do dungeons alone, you’re there with a group and most of the times (from my experience) people are totally willing to explain the bossfights and to help (ofcourse there are exceptions).

So no, it’s not “impossible”, he jsut made the decision that it wasn’t worht the effort. And thats a totally valid decision, there are skins i like but i just don’t see it being worth the effort, they aren’t “impossible” to obtain for me though (and i’m far from good). It’s just me weighing their value agaisnt whether i’d enjoy getting them. I rather have fun , than force myself to grind or do something unfun for a skin. And that’s okay, i won’t get that skin , i move on.

Wrong or right, that’s the attitude of a lot of people. This isn’t a job, it’s a game. You play games to have fun. If you don’t find dungeons fun, you don’t do dungeons. If they make it so you can ONLY get rewards from dungeons and you want those rewards, you’re forced to do something you’re not enjoying, at which point, it’s not a game anymore.

Sure anyone CAN do it. I can go to the gym and work out too, but I don’t, because I don’t find it fun. The thing is, I have huge amounts of time to play so it doesn’t matter if some stuff I do isn’t fun for a bit, but people who have less time to play…it becomes a bigger deal. How many of these people are there? What is the threshold before they throw in the towel? It varies from person to person.

But it doesn’t make those people wrong.

“Wrong or right, that’s the attitude of a lot of people. This isn’t a job, it’s a game. "
Indeed, and grind, grind, grind to buy the reward feels like a job, an interesting challenge feels like a game.

I’d say it differently, this isn’t a job, it’s a game, but it feels like a job with all the grind.

If you don’t find dungeons fun, you don’t do dungeons. If they make it so you can ONLY get rewards from dungeons and you want those rewards, you’re forced to do something you’re not enjoying, at which point, it’s not a game anymore.

I don’t find the grind or RNG fun yet they put almost everything behind it. Lumi set? Grind SW for the skins and pray to RNGesus. Dungeon skins? Grind PVP farm maps for them (lol), Ambrite skins? Grind DT or PVP farm maps. Precursors? Insane grind for Gold and/or MF playing. Fractal Weapon skins? Insane Fractal grind. Legendary weapons? Grind SW for gold to buy the materials.

And the most serious offender of them all? Gem store skins? Grind SW for the gold to get gems.

They already made it so you can ONLY get rewards from grind and RNG and I want those rewards, I’m forced to do something I’m not enjoying, at which point, it’s not a game anymore. Can I just have some rewards (a tiny few) that are skill based and not grind based? Please.

Vayne. Minimum game requirements include internet connection speeds. Your problem is with there not being an Oceanic server, a stupidly common issue in online gaming. You got screwed not by hard content, but by common business practices. You are attacking this because you get screwed by NCsoft/Anet. You are attacking the wrong thing.

Also you keep saying hard content, but its been made clear that it is challenging GROUP content. If you have a lag spike in TA, you still can get carried through by people who have no issues. This will not change with the new content, you may have trouble, you may not have fun, but you will still earn the rewards eventually if they are that important to you. Everyone who can’t will get carried eventually if they try long enough.

And even if you don’t want to, you are missing out on skins. That’s it. Pure pvpers don’t have luminous gear, pure pvers don’t have glorious gear, poor unlucky players don’t have the ghostly wolf mini, rich players who started later don’t have all the season 1 rewards despite having the gold to get nearly everything else. When I want something ingame that is out of my area of expertise I work at it, even if it is impossible for me (I can’t do the clocktower jumping) and if I fail or just stop because its not fun (silverwastes for example of something I just stopped because my god it is boring to me) then I can man up and accept that I won’t get it unless I go for it, and have enough self confidence to accept not having every shiny in a video game without feeling bad about it.

In the end if all this fails, if you can’t stand the game, speak with your wallet and get a new one that better caters to your needs. Some of the new mmos coming out will have oceanic servers. We’ve all lost favourite games due to design choices we just don’t agree with, it sucks but it happens.

Vayne.8563:

You keep trying to twist what I’m saying and I’m not going to let you. Have all the content you want that I can’t do because of my location. Don’t lock me off from specific rewards though, because this is a game that everyone in Australia has paid for just like everyone in America and it is absolutely harder for us. To make the content challenging enough for us might be it easier for you. For example, when doing Liadri, that extra .5 seconds is a very long time to be able to see exactly where you are. There were many times I did it and died, even though my machine wasn’t showing anything that killed me. It simply hadn’t updated yet.

I thought Arewn.2368 was talking about challenging content in general not the rewards from it and saw it as a “don’t make challenging content because I can’t play it” hence my response. Apologies.

As I already said earlier in the thread if they can make it so Challenging Group Content rewards are available through other means I also agree with that. More fun for all. I don’t care about that at all.

Only three things matter to me for challenging content:
It’s actually challenging and not only in name
It brings some unique rewards to the game (made available elsewhere or not)
It is more skill than RNG/Grind based to get those rewards

If they do those then whatever else comes from I won’t say no. Not at all.

So let’s move on from that and go to the actual topic, how to make the challenging group content rewards available to as many players as possible (since that’s the main reason against challenging content anyway):

The “main” and easiest way to make them available to everyone is putting them on the market, and this is what I do not agree with at all. The reason is simple, if they put them on the TP, they HAVE to be behind some RNG/Grind wall to get, otherwise the market will flood with them and make them pointless 50c shinny things. Which will never happen anyway for obvious reasons, Anet wants rare things to be expensive so they sell gems. The alternative is to do what GW1 EotN did and add a multitude of dungeons, with a huge variety of skins to work for, so even with less RNG the items will be expensive enough. That of course requires them to create a LOT of content, which I somehow doubt. I suspect the challenging content will have one or two zones/maps/instances/whatever with very few skins. I could be wrong.

Other than putting them on the market, adding a second reward system for them is possible, a collection for example. The problem with this one is I don’t know if Anet is willing to create two separate unique methods of acquisition, if it’s too much trouble for them. They’ve done it in the past (Ascended Rings or dungeon skins for example) so it’s not unheard off but it’s not very common. We will see if they go this way.

The other way is the token system. Give players tokens for finishing content, killing mobs in the new challenging area, then give them a whole lot more tokens if they finish it (killing final boss etc). So players will either move to the end of the content and defeat the harder challenges for more tokens, or stay at the entry area (soloable?) and farm/grind mobs or easy events for more tokens. That could work too.

Is there any other system?

dsslive.8473:

Crossaber.8934:

dsslive.8473:

Crossaber.8934:

Vayne.8563:

Astralporing.1957:

phys.7689:

i dont think most mmo players want to get everything without playing the game. pretty sure its a very small minority of players than want the dungeon title but dont want to do any dungeons.

Sure, but they might want dungeons they themselves will be able to run. Remember, for a large part of population dungeons, even the really easy ones, are still hard. Forumites, when compared to the rest of the population, are generally exceptionally skilled and esperienced – you shouldn’t assume everyone is around your skill level, or even around you skill potential. There are many players that will never come close, no matter how hard they will try. What you might consider a moderate level of difficulty, that should be cleared by anyone with a little effort, is most likely prohibitively hard to many, many players.

I went into TA this week with a party of five. We didn’t get past the wurms in the beginning after three tries. Two people left the party and with those people replaced, we beat the wurms in no time flat.

Those two people, one of whom was new, one has been playing since launch. Sure eventually they might get it, but everyone has a different discouragement threshold.

Also if dungeons could be soloed, I’m convinced a lot more people would do it. I think it’s looking bad in front of others that prevents many from trying.

Exactly this, I have been desired to obtain Arah heavy legging since launch.(A lv10 noob starring at the dungeon merchant since then….) But almost 3 years passed, i’ve only played arah exp P1 once and i found that it took too long to complete, therefore i’ve never join any arah exp again. And of couse i am never able to obtain the skin until couple days ago i got it from the PvP reward track.

you are not “never able to obtain the skin”. You are compeltely able to obtain it, the point is, you choose not to. There’s quite the difference.

No, it is not my choice.

Time is what i don’t have especially after marrage.

i work till 8pm everyday. 1hr transport to home. i have to start cooking with my wife, about 10pm we’ve done dinner, since then we need to clean up and i am only able to play while she is bathing. That 15-20mins period sometimes not enough for me to finish 1 pvp match.

Every time i contents that require longer playtime, i will have to afk here and there to take care family matters. Therefore i only party with RL friends. We understand each other and we all have needs to attent to family problems.

You are lucky for having so many luxery time to play. I dont because most of my time is working. I live in the most expensive housing city in the world. I have a good salary job which is well above average. But i do not own a house and if i want to, i need to save up all my earnings for 17years no spending a penny to buy a small flat at CURRENT price if the housing got no inflation for that period.

There are many players that only play for casual for entertainment only. I like the way pvp now even i am no pvpers, i can still slowly obtain the skin i desired.

You choose to priorities family/work over playing the game (as you should, i priorities my job first too) I get it, you don’t have much time to play, and while i’m sure that sucks it doesn’t mean some of the higher/rarer/more time intensive rewards shouldn’t exist. Like i said earlier in this thread, there’s plenty of skins out of my reach too, but i’m fine with that. I move on and play something i do like. Rewards should be depended pn the difficulty of the content, not on how little time X% of the playerbase has to play.

Arah armor (while there are paths that take like 30m) is out of reach, the way you schedule your time makes it that way. But that doesn’t mean it should be easier to get that’s all i’m saying.

I have been doing pvp (i wasn’t a pvp guy at all) exclusively for like over 2 weeks, 1 match or 2 a day, and finally gain enough token to buy from the lionarch vendor. It took so much longer time to gain a single piece of dungeon armor than someone who can share times to run the actual exp dungeons.

There are players out there can only able to play 1 hour per day max, one of my RL friend can share only 2 hours per WEEK to play. Both of us must skip all time consuming contents in order to have fun. He is more of a pvper than me, but he never player pvp match outside of hotjoin, i asked him why, the reason is, he don’t want to queue up for 2 mins in order to play. EVERY SEC of play time matters.

PvP reward track is the best example of how rewards can be given with an alternative way besides hard contents. Play hard content for faster obtain or play casual contents to slowly obtain.

Fox.3469:

Devata.6589:

Fox.3469:

Conski Deshan.2057:

Fox.3469:

Conski Deshan.2057:

If a full set of say 8 warriors can just blow through it , it indicates that the games mechanics are not being fully utilized.

I have to say i strongly disagree with this. If a full set of berserker warriors, all with the same weapons can blast trough it, then yes. However if you have allot of different specs and playstyles of the warrior in your group. Then 8 warriors should be just fine.

You have to have different roles, classes are flavour, but the role they fill should be important.

I would consider classes to be more than flavor.
I said mechanically, and what I mean by that is, there may be a portion of the fight that requires reflects (like arah but say damageable by normal means), Water fields may be required for another section, invisibility for a section where you have to stealth through and agro results in insta-kill, A crowd control fight where you have to prevent several enemies from reaching a location through soft CC.

Even 8 different spec’d warriors would feel too low diversity wise.

I don’t mean to say it has to be optimal, just possible. If not you just impose certain classes upon the group.

If different roles are not required you never get the feeling you really make a change. It’s more the the ‘just everybody DPS the hell out of it’.

That is what i said… Dear lord people read, i said before 8 warriors should be able to complete it, but not 8 berserkers. Warrior can fill allot of different roles. I explained that your class shouldn’t matter that much, but your role should. and in role i mean wether you are more tanky, dps heavy, or support based.

Well this little discussion started with a post of me where I talked about “Raid Group Setup” and then it’s about roles, not about classes.

Now personally I would still think doing it with 8 warriors should not be doable because that means Warriors can have too many possible roles, not leaving enough flavor between different classes. Also if you can switch role half way, there really is no role.. But that’s a complete other discussion about how you should design classes and roles. So when you say you must be able to do it with 8 warriors then it becomes a completely different discussion.

When you talk about “group setup” I do mean different roles in a group. Take the trinity as an example (no, I am not saying we should have the trinity) then there are 3 required roles, DPS, Tank and Healer. We are not, and have never been talking about classes but about the group setup aka what roles a group must exist of.

._. 99% of this game is targeted towards casuals, see we dot want to take stuff away from you, we just want our onw little corner

Crossaber.8934:

dsslive.8473:

Crossaber.8934:

dsslive.8473:

Crossaber.8934:

Vayne.8563:

Astralporing.1957:

phys.7689:

i dont think most mmo players want to get everything without playing the game. pretty sure its a very small minority of players than want the dungeon title but dont want to do any dungeons.

Sure, but they might want dungeons they themselves will be able to run. Remember, for a large part of population dungeons, even the really easy ones, are still hard. Forumites, when compared to the rest of the population, are generally exceptionally skilled and esperienced – you shouldn’t assume everyone is around your skill level, or even around you skill potential. There are many players that will never come close, no matter how hard they will try. What you might consider a moderate level of difficulty, that should be cleared by anyone with a little effort, is most likely prohibitively hard to many, many players.

I went into TA this week with a party of five. We didn’t get past the wurms in the beginning after three tries. Two people left the party and with those people replaced, we beat the wurms in no time flat.

Those two people, one of whom was new, one has been playing since launch. Sure eventually they might get it, but everyone has a different discouragement threshold.

Also if dungeons could be soloed, I’m convinced a lot more people would do it. I think it’s looking bad in front of others that prevents many from trying.

Exactly this, I have been desired to obtain Arah heavy legging since launch.(A lv10 noob starring at the dungeon merchant since then….) But almost 3 years passed, i’ve only played arah exp P1 once and i found that it took too long to complete, therefore i’ve never join any arah exp again. And of couse i am never able to obtain the skin until couple days ago i got it from the PvP reward track.

you are not “never able to obtain the skin”. You are compeltely able to obtain it, the point is, you choose not to. There’s quite the difference.

No, it is not my choice.

Time is what i don’t have especially after marrage.

i work till 8pm everyday. 1hr transport to home. i have to start cooking with my wife, about 10pm we’ve done dinner, since then we need to clean up and i am only able to play while she is bathing. That 15-20mins period sometimes not enough for me to finish 1 pvp match.

Every time i contents that require longer playtime, i will have to afk here and there to take care family matters. Therefore i only party with RL friends. We understand each other and we all have needs to attent to family problems.

You are lucky for having so many luxery time to play. I dont because most of my time is working. I live in the most expensive housing city in the world. I have a good salary job which is well above average. But i do not own a house and if i want to, i need to save up all my earnings for 17years no spending a penny to buy a small flat at CURRENT price if the housing got no inflation for that period.

There are many players that only play for casual for entertainment only. I like the way pvp now even i am no pvpers, i can still slowly obtain the skin i desired.

You choose to priorities family/work over playing the game (as you should, i priorities my job first too) I get it, you don’t have much time to play, and while i’m sure that sucks it doesn’t mean some of the higher/rarer/more time intensive rewards shouldn’t exist. Like i said earlier in this thread, there’s plenty of skins out of my reach too, but i’m fine with that. I move on and play something i do like. Rewards should be depended pn the difficulty of the content, not on how little time X% of the playerbase has to play.

Arah armor (while there are paths that take like 30m) is out of reach, the way you schedule your time makes it that way. But that doesn’t mean it should be easier to get that’s all i’m saying.

I have been doing pvp (i wasn’t a pvp guy at all) exclusively for like over 2 weeks, 1 match or 2 a day, and finally gain enough token to buy from the lionarch vendor. It took so much longer time to gain a single piece of dungeon armor than someone who can share times to run the actual exp dungeons.

There are players out there can only able to play 1 hour per day max, one of my RL friend can share only 2 hours per WEEK to play. Both of us must skip all time consuming contents in order to have fun. He is more of a pvper than me, but he never player pvp match outside of hotjoin, i asked him why, the reason is, he don’t want to queue up for 2 mins in order to play. EVERY SEC of play time matters.

PvP reward track is the best example of how rewards can be given with an alternative way besides hard contents. Play hard content for faster obtain or play casual contents to slowly obtain.

The PvP reward track is a great example of missed opportunity and horrible reward system. It was supposed to be a way to get dungeon skins in PVP, since they removed glory, not a replacement for dungeons as the acquisition method those skins. Some time along the way farm maps appeared and the entire reward system was rendered pointless.

Just the sentence “PVP is the casual way of getting PVE rewards” is wrong.

And PVP farm maps ARE faster than dungeon running if you want weapon skins.

Blaeys.3102:

I agree with the OP 100 percent on this.

Like many, I want more challenging content in all areas of the game (a lot) – but I want it so that I feel challenged and have fun doing the content, not so I can obtain something that others cannot.

Differentiated gear tiers (of any kind) is a relic from other MMOs. GW2 takes that drama out of the game and puts the focus solely on what it should be on – the content and personal satisfaction that comes from beating that content.

Good rewards does not equal gear tiers, it can also be about cosmetic or other fun items.

Anyway, if those items are not important, only the content is, then why care about how you have to get them?

Also many people are now grinding their way towards the rewards, not even liking the grind, so whether you like it or not, GW2 very much is reward-driven. Also in those cases there is not much personal satisfaction that comes out of the content exactly because of the way the reward system works in GW2 at this moment.

CorrynnStarr.7942:

people that compare this to real life are just not getting it… This isn’t real life!! Its a game meant for enjoyment. You cant compare scenarios to real life here, cuz it doesn’t make any sense. If you want to play like real life, then go to REAL LIFE… comparing this to a gym to get 6 pack abs… pfff… Lipo and implants can give you that with no effort… or I could just select 6 pack abs on my toon from a menu… should I wait 4 years to add longer hair to my toon cuz ittakes that long in real life??? should I make my toon as ugly as possible to imitate my own look in real life? and the opposite, should I choose to have the prettiest toon possible to fit my real life self image? Jesus people… Games are designed to have fun, not to be real life work. Go ahead and have your hard content, just don’t gate the rewards behind things a lot of people cant obtain, regardless of how hard they work at it.

There is not a kitten thing wrong with making something hard to get and have multiple ways to do it. THE ONLY REASON to keep it gated is to make it so your selfish kitten can walk around PVE and gloat… PERIOD. Don’t try to hide behind that cowl of “oh you just have to work for it” nonsense, cuz that SCREAMS of “im better than you and I want to show it off”.

“There is not a kitten thing wrong with making something hard to get and have multiple ways to do it.”
Sure, but it does depends on how you do it.. In the current way it’s very currency driven (like in real life), resulting in people grinding for the currency, not even liking the grind (like often in real life) to then buy the items they want (like in real life). So it basically becomes a job to them (like in real life). But indeed, this should not be about real life, this should be fun, that is exactly why you would have a more interesting system (life by the land type of idea) that is a fun or challenging way to earn the rewards, instead of turning it into a job.

Harper.4173:

PorceleinEve.2973:

CandyHearts.6025:

So what I’m getting from OP is this example

1 man practices, keeps in shape, does all he can to prepare for a competitive sport.
2nd man can’t be bothered, because he doesn’t enjoy being active.

Both participate. 1st man ran the whole 10 miles. The other man took a nap and watched television and takes a taxi to the finish line and expects the same prize.

How is that fair to the person who earned it?

It’s not. And that’s what should matter more over.

It’s the same reason why drops and rewards are different for story mode dungeons vs explorable.

this isn’t a competitive sport.
it isn’t even a competition.
the aim isn’t for you to prove how better you are than your fellow men.
you want something challenging and hard and competitive? start playing chess.

It’s all a matter of perception – what chess is to you GW2 may be to him. Competition is a part of our every day lives and each person decides what is and what isn’t a competition to them.
You saying this game isn’t a competition doesn’t mean it isn’t. It just means for you it isn’t. For some getting more stuff or having better stuff than others might be the sole focus of play.

I agree with Harper, it depends on your vision of the game, PvP is definitely competitive, so is WvW. PvE can be even if it isn’t actually fighting against other people. It depends on what you are competing over. I have been in a guild where we competed over vanquishing a specified zone in GW1 and how fast we could do dungeons. There is always the possibility of competition over what goodies you have managed to get.

Then the thread isn’t about getting rewards for little effort, although that is possible too, there are plenty who make huge amounts of gold on the TP. This is about keeping the less able players on board in newer content and not making it too hard for them. Reward level should be based on effort, trouble is it rarely is in GW2. Someone may spend months playing with minimal gains while someone else gets a precursor drop in the first day.

As for story mode vs exploreable, I have often found exploreable to be the easier option but have greater rewards.

Ashen.2907:

Vayne.8563:

People are fond of comparing this game to Guild Wars 1. There was very little in Guild Wars 1 that couldn’t be purchased with gold. Arguably, the hardest weapons to attain were the weapons from DOA, or maybe rare stuff like the celestial compass, the bonecage scythe, the frog scepter or the voltaic spear.

All these high end items were available to sell. You didn’t have to be great to get them. You could farm feathers in a low end zone over and over till you could afford to purchase them.

No one in Guild Wars 1 seemed that riled that their rewards weren’t exclusive. It allowed players who wanted challenge to do challenging content and profit. It allowed less intense players to have the rewards.

I think this is the best solution all the way around.

To those who support those hard core rewards, I guarantee you if there are enough rewards casual players can’t get, you won’t have enough players left to continue running the game. Casuals, in my opinion, make a vast percentage of the playerbase. The more you put out of their reach, the more of them you lose.

I agree with this sentiment completely.

The guy who gets the super rare drop can hold onto it or get rich by selling it. Either way he is greatly rewarded for participating in the content that produced the drop. Meanwhile the player who doesn’t care for content X can farm content Y to finance his purchase of the item. Its a win/win.

But that only works because the structure is different from GW2. In GW2 you don’t really have these type of items other than items that are very rare and purely based on ‘luck’, extremely low RNG or the ones you can only buy (cash-shop). But not really ‘do this hard content’ and that gives you a reasonable possibility for item x to drop. Only a few, while it should be with many of the items, do x get y, do b get c. Not do whatever, sell whatever, buy y from the guy that wanted c but got y by doing whatever. (Where whatever is usually some type of grind they do to get the currency they need)

Stars.2179:

Vayne.8563:

dsslive.8473:

Stars.2179:

Actually, there are such thing is non-viable builds a well as game play. Just because Goku or Abe or Wethospu can solo the crap out of everything naked doesn’t mean other people can do it. There are such thing as non-viable way of playing for others and for them, sometimes it IS IMPOSSIBLE!

not sure if this was in reply to my response to the arah guy, but here we go

He already managed to complete arah once, so it’s not out of his reach, the thing is that it simply took too long (all dungeons are gonna take long if you’re doing the for the first time) Instead of sking for help or just joining a party and learning as he goes he decides it’s “out of reach” when it really isn’t. No one is saying he should be able to solo arah naked (i surely can’t), you don’t do dungeons alone, you’re there with a group and most of the times (from my experience) people are totally willing to explain the bossfights and to help (ofcourse there are exceptions).

So no, it’s not “impossible”, he jsut made the decision that it wasn’t worht the effort. And thats a totally valid decision, there are skins i like but i just don’t see it being worth the effort, they aren’t “impossible” to obtain for me though (and i’m far from good). It’s just me weighing their value agaisnt whether i’d enjoy getting them. I rather have fun , than force myself to grind or do something unfun for a skin. And that’s okay, i won’t get that skin , i move on.

Wrong or right, that’s the attitude of a lot of people. This isn’t a job, it’s a game. You play games to have fun. If you don’t find dungeons fun, you don’t do dungeons. If they make it so you can ONLY get rewards from dungeons and you want those rewards, you’re forced to do something you’re not enjoying, at which point, it’s not a game anymore.

Sure anyone CAN do it. I can go to the gym and work out too, but I don’t, because I don’t find it fun. The thing is, I have huge amounts of time to play so it doesn’t matter if some stuff I do isn’t fun for a bit, but people who have less time to play…it becomes a bigger deal. How many of these people are there? What is the threshold before they throw in the towel? It varies from person to person.

But it doesn’t make those people wrong.

Yeah but how do you balance it out if I only ever wanted to roleplay and run 50 laps around divinity reach every day and I don’t find dungeons nor fractal fun AT ALL. I HATE THEM but I WANT those skins ANYWAY. So should I be just get them without doing the appropriate contents?

As joke I would say, they could make a reward for logging in.. but reality has it, that that already exists.

anabasis.7346:

…

This is what Colin said in an interview on Tentonhammer:

Ten Ton Hammer: Guild Wars 2 isn’t known for being a challenging game and rival products such as WildStar that pushed a hardcore agenda struggled to retain players. Why have you decided to now implement more challenging content with Heart Of Thorns?

Colin: […] So why more challenging content now? Simply put – it’s what our players have been asking for – and we agree with them that it will make Guild Wars 2 a deeper and more compelling game experience. We don’t have issues retaining players, and we think providing more content they are excited about will only be better for us in the long run.

/Thread

Why do you believe that lie (the bolded part)? ANet has NEVER asked any of their players ingame what they want!!

In that interview Colin just asserts that the players want more challenging content because HE/ANet wants it. It’s PR bullkitten.

ANet doesn’t know what players want because they never ask them.

All this talk about casual vs hardcore / elite, and that challenging content would scare away casuals.. Who says casuals would not be interested in challenging content? Most people like a challenge once in a while.

Also the question becomes how you define casual vs hardcore. Getting most of the current rewards required endless and endless hours of grinding. So from a “time spend” perspective, those casuals many seem to point to, are very hardcore. Meaning the current structure really mainly rewards hardcore players.

Builds don’t interest me so from that perspective I might be casual, and I for sure don’t like to grind, grind, grind some currency what results in me not being able to get many nice rewards (because of me being casual about this).

However, many people consider me the JP specialist because apparently I am good at JP’s so maybe I am elite at JP’s. So is it then really so strange to be rewarded for that, instead of mainly rewarding the hardcore casuals?

There is this pervasive belief that 99% of the player base is 100% casual and that all of these players enjoy 100% the same type of content. I would 100% love to see these metrics.

As a casual player who generally enjoys to see all the content a game has to offer, I play and enjoy difficult content with other non-elitist, non-hard core players. Hard-core and elitism is an attitude, and does not necessarily have any causal relation to the skill of the player nor the content they enjoy.