Some people don't like hard mode

Some people don't like hard mode

in Guild Wars 2: Heart of Thorns

Posted by: phys.7689

phys.7689

Do you really think that casual players will just sit around and watch better players get all kinds of cool stuff, while they sit in the wings? Some will, sure, but what percentage. That’s the hundred thousand dollar question.

And how many players are leaving the game because of the grind, grind, grind and luck involved? How many players who used to be collectors in other games do not collect anything in this one because there is such a grind or rng involved to collect things? How many of those already left? How many players that write guides and try to make the game better for everyone still play waiting for something more to come? How long do you think all those kinds of players (including casual mini collectors) will stay in the game if everything they want is behind an endless grind?

I don’t know. But I do know that without that grind, even with challenging content, there is no MMO. No company can make content fast enough for people who play all the time to be satisfied. No company has done it yet. You seem to equate the grind with hard content getting good rewards.

I don’t. I equate the grind with the idea that to keep people playing there really aren’t any options. You can do it like some games do, and make the drops very rare in a specific raid (or a fractal weapon skin), or you can make the grind so that anyone can get it, but it takes a while.

If you see another option I’d sure like to hear it.

its all about numbers:

the more difficult something is the higher rate you can make the random, because they spend more time.
you can even lessen random drop to zero if its hard enough with enough rewards.

there is also using randomized level design to increase repeatability. fractals was an example of this, even though its not enough imo.

regardless, as i have said, its best for the game to have rewards that fit the effort required. A hard jump puzzle that takes twice as long should have a better reward than an easy one that takes less time.
people will still do the easy one because its easy, they will also do the kittene because it is worthwhile.

the problem becomes when reward is not well balanced. if the easy one give nothing no one will do it, if the hard and easy give the same few will do it.

Some people don't like hard mode

in Guild Wars 2: Heart of Thorns

Posted by: Harper.4173

Harper.4173

It’s a matter of thresholds. It’s only a few more. But it’s a few more on top of the ones some players can’t attain already. There are people out there who are really mad that they “can’t” get luminscent armor, because the LS achievements are too hard for them. There’s been more than one post about this.

I’ve seen numerous LFG offers for achievement runs for the LS. I’ve seen friendly runs and I’ve seen paid runs. I honestly don’t see how you can’t get these considering the fact that you can pay someone to run most of them if not all of them for you.

There’s been more than one post about people who feel the game is moving in a direction that’s harder and harder and while it might be laughable to you, it’s certainly not laughable to them.
But the portion of the people who post on forums are going to be the most dedicated people, because it takes effort outside the game. Most casual players aren’t going to post here and those are going to be the ones most affected.

The problem with people posting they feel the game is moving in a bad direction is that people almost never bother to give positive feedback when they’re happy but will almost always give negative feedback when they’re not.
Most casual players aren’t going to post but I would dare say most casual players are so casual they don’t really care that much about this stuff – I doubt they even know what rewards they can’t get or even care that much for this or that skin.

You see – to be this heavily invested in a game that you would up and leave over a few skins and exclusive rewards that you can’t get is to not be casual in the first place.
Casual doesn’t just mean “laid back and I don’t do hardcore content” – it means you take a casual attitude to gaming – it means you don’t really care that much about it. At least the way I see it.

Everyone is going to have a threshold of what they’ll accept before the game is just too hard and they stop playing. Realistically it’s always been like this, and it can’t be stopped. Even right now, there are people who have quit this game because it’s too hard.

And you have people who’ve stopped because it’s too easy too. And you have people not coming in because they perceive the game as too easy and with no real end-game.

I have friends who refuse to try GW2 because it has “no end-game” – they define end-game as raids and without hardcore large-number-of-players content they don’t see the point.

I have a belief that the biggest percentage of players of this game haven’t got a clue about the game and that those people are already feeling a bit…vulnerable for lack of a better word.. We’ve seen some comments about it on the forum already, but not too many.

Then why are you worried? Most likely they’ll never even notice these things being added or not. If they’re so out of touch with the game how could they possibly care so much over a skin set?

Right now we already have people complaining dailies are too hard now. Dailies take too long. Dailies. And they don’t really reward anything but 10 achievement points that caps out at 15,000 anyway.

People have traditionally complained about dailies ever since we got dailies introduced. Always the same – too hard or too easy.
Objectively dailies are not hard. You can get 3 dailies done on a PvP daily server in under 10 minutes. It’s that hard.

What else is hard? Daily forge? daily badges of honor spender? Daily tree gatherer or ore gatherer? Sure there are some harder dailies out there but any combination of those that I’ve mentioned and some PvP daily will get you done really fast.

And no – you don’t have to be a PvP player to do a PvP daily since the daily server are specifically tailored to getting your dailies done.

Do you really think that casual players will just sit around and watch better players get all kinds of cool stuff, while they sit in the wings? Some will, sure, but what percentage. That’s the hundred thousand dollar question.

I certainly hope not – I hope they actually become motivated to better themselves and try to grow and evolve as gamers – not stagnate at the level they’re already at because it’s easy and comfy.

If here they fall they shall live on when ever you cry “For Ascalon!”

Some people don't like hard mode

in Guild Wars 2: Heart of Thorns

Posted by: Astralporing.1957

Astralporing.1957

this isn’t a competitive sport.
it isn’t even a competition.
the aim isn’t for you to prove how better you are than your fellow men.
you want something challenging and hard and competitive? start playing chess.

So your point is unless you are profession in a competitive activity you shouldn’t try to better yourself and nobody should reward the skill or dedication of someone?

You can better yourself of course, but in activities that are not competitive you should not expect any more rewards that the satisfaction of getting better. You are expecting to be rewarded for doing better sandcastles in the kiddie playground. And you fully expect other kids to be denied those rewards just because they’d rather prefer to dig holes or just socialize. That’s not fairness, that’s a joke.

This is a mixed bag here – yes there have been complaints about every single one of the but the complaints are not generated because these items exist but because these items are only obtainable through ridiculous RNG.

Yes for some (Teq, Triple wurm, Fractals, sw carapace chest), no for others (hellfire/radiant case where complains are about them requiring too much ap, dungeon skins – those complains ended in making them available through pvp, all those are not rng based in the slightest), but in the end all of those complains can be reduced to the same basis: “those are too hard to get”.
And in the end all suggestions are about making them easier to get. Except the suggestions from “elites”, ofc.

Actions, not words.
Remember, remember, 15th of November

Some people don't like hard mode

in Guild Wars 2: Heart of Thorns

Posted by: Harper.4173

Harper.4173

Do you really think that casual players will just sit around and watch better players get all kinds of cool stuff, while they sit in the wings? Some will, sure, but what percentage. That’s the hundred thousand dollar question.

And how many players are leaving the game because of the grind, grind, grind and luck involved? How many players who used to be collectors in other games do not collect anything in this one because there is such a grind or rng involved to collect things? How many of those already left? How many players that write guides and try to make the game better for everyone still play waiting for something more to come? How long do you think all those kinds of players (including casual mini collectors) will stay in the game if everything they want is behind an endless grind?

I don’t know. But I do know that without that grind, even with challenging content, there is no MMO. No company can make content fast enough for people who play all the time to be satisfied. No company has done it yet. You seem to equate the grind with hard content getting good rewards.

I don’t. I equate the grind with the idea that to keep people playing there really aren’t any options. You can do it like some games do, and make the drops very rare in a specific raid (or a fractal weapon skin), or you can make the grind so that anyone can get it, but it takes a while.

If you see another option I’d sure like to hear it.

You can mix the two methods – RNG and token based. How?

An item costs a specific number of tokens.
You are always awarded tokens for doing the game content associated with the wanted item.
RNG dictates the number of tokens you are awarded with a set minimum and maximum.

That way you still get that “buzz” of “wow I got 10 token today happy happy lucky day” but you don’t rely entirely on RNG to get your weapon and provided you stick with it you can “fight off” bad luck and eventually get what you were aiming for.

If here they fall they shall live on when ever you cry “For Ascalon!”

Some people don't like hard mode

in Guild Wars 2: Heart of Thorns

Posted by: Devata.6589

Devata.6589

I’m leery of Legendary skins available only in hard content. Legendary items are the game’s only real carrot outside of the ~5% stat increase offered by Ascended items. This game has too few carrots, and restricting the most noticeable of them to whatever percentage of the player-base wants hard content might not be the best for the game’s health. Existing Legendaries fit the bill, I’m not sure about the new ones yet.

No – the part i bolded out I cannot agree with – existing legendary weapons are a joke – the fact that you can straight up buy one with cash is ridiculous.
Why even call it Legendary? What’s legendary about swiping your card and getting the item? Nothing.

They could have cash-only or gem-store only exclusive skins that you can buy with gems – sure – but the moment your game’s most prestigious and supposedly hard to get item can be straight-up bought with real money I see a very very big problem.

Anet has accepted this and changed it since wave 2 legendary items will be account bound – as they should have been from the beginning.

Won’t argue with that — I was speaking about universality of access to make one’s own, not buying the item — which is consistent with buying skins in GW, but not ideal from a prestige point of view.

Yes – sure they’re easily accessible and I can see how that’s a good thing but a lot of bad comes from it too.

The reason they’re so accessible is that they’re basically a huge buy list with very little things that you actually have to do in order to get them. They were hard or harder at launch . Badges of honor for example were relevant and difficult to get back in the day when EOTM didn’t exist – you really did have to WvW a bit to get your 500.

Today most of what makes up a Gen 1 legendary is stuff you can straight up buy – that’s why they’re easy to get.

Easy as in, it just requires a brainless grind.. but not fun / challenging. Also it makes the item less unique so gives it less value from a game-perspective.

(edited by Devata.6589)

Some people don't like hard mode

in Guild Wars 2: Heart of Thorns

Posted by: Devata.6589

Devata.6589

If it comes to unique skins, what I would do is trying to have multiple difficulty levels for specific content. Let say JP’s are part of the leaderboard-content and when implementing that it would also get a unique reward. Now you can make it so that when you complete it you get a specific silver skin. Completing it within 5 min however also unlocks the same skin but with gold details on it, and completing it within 2,5 min it also gets a nice effect on it that you can then toggle on and off for both previous unlocked skins.

Now everybody can go for the skin, but there still is good reward for a bigger challenge.

What is important however is that the reward you get is also linked to the content (as much as possible). Best example I use for this, would be unlocking the blue-print for a portal to a WvW map for the guild-hall. Unlocking that, might very well be linked to holding a keep in that map. Sure this mean to unlock it, you need to do WvW, but the content matches the reward.

Much like the SAB mini’s should have been a reward from SAB (just as the skins). Now the mini’s where cash-shop items, meaning the way to get them was by grinding gold, or just buying them and not even looking at SAB. But would people really be able to complain about having to do SAB, to get the SAB mini’s?. Sure they can, but it would be completely unreasonable imho.

Some people don't like hard mode

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Posted by: Vayne.8563

Vayne.8563

Do you really think that casual players will just sit around and watch better players get all kinds of cool stuff, while they sit in the wings? Some will, sure, but what percentage. That’s the hundred thousand dollar question.

And how many players are leaving the game because of the grind, grind, grind and luck involved? How many players who used to be collectors in other games do not collect anything in this one because there is such a grind or rng involved to collect things? How many of those already left? How many players that write guides and try to make the game better for everyone still play waiting for something more to come? How long do you think all those kinds of players (including casual mini collectors) will stay in the game if everything they want is behind an endless grind?

I don’t know. But I do know that without that grind, even with challenging content, there is no MMO. No company can make content fast enough for people who play all the time to be satisfied. No company has done it yet. You seem to equate the grind with hard content getting good rewards.

I don’t. I equate the grind with the idea that to keep people playing there really aren’t any options. You can do it like some games do, and make the drops very rare in a specific raid (or a fractal weapon skin), or you can make the grind so that anyone can get it, but it takes a while.

If you see another option I’d sure like to hear it.

Or put the rewards behind challenging content that will make the majority of players much longer to get. Much like how hard it was/is to get the Dungeon Master achievement unless you master a fight like Simin. It took players months to get that fight right, but now it’s “farm” mode for those who mastered it and at least much more doable for everyone else.

Do you believe the majority of players have dungeon master? I’d love for someone from Anet to come and tell us what percentage of players have it. I do, but I know that 90% of my guild doesn’t. Those are the very rewards that need to be used sparingly, or you risk losing the casuals.

And why don’t they have it? It’s not like it’s hard to get now with all the spot selling going around. Or all the guides written about it, or maybe asking for help from a dungeon master, there are more than enough willing to teach all the dungeons even to total newcomers. The actual dungeon community is very casual-friendly (not the kind of reward seekers on the LFG tool)

Those who don’t have Dungeon Master, simply don’t want to have it.

You really don’t get it. Do you know how many people have never entered a dungeon and don’t KNOW about paths being sold. You can only see this from the point of view of a forum poster. Of people who frequent websites. Of people who join guilds.

People don’t have it, because it’s really really far out of their comfort zone. It’s not that it’s not attainable, it’s that it’s SEEN as not attainable. You can believe all you want that people know that they can get this, but I’m pretty sure a healthy percentage of the playerbase doesn’t know if you use a skill while downed and trying to rez yourself that it interrupts it.

Yes, I agree most people who frequent these forums know you can buy runs. But I know quite a few people who walked into a dungeon solo, got killed at the first encounter and never went near one again.

Some people don't like hard mode

in Guild Wars 2: Heart of Thorns

Posted by: Devata.6589

Devata.6589

+1 to the creator of the thread.
He said exactly what i think and what i want. i dont want this game that i love transform into a frustrating game that only can be played with 150 trained people at the same time or staying on X ip for 2 hours, etc etc. I want a casual game, where i can enjoy and play at its full with just 1-2 hours per day, like GW2 has always been.

A) Challenging Group Content doesn’t mean “insanely long content”. There can be challenge without taking many hours (unless we count wipes), in fact that’s the best kind of challenge

B) I miss the point where any kind of content like this is mandatory. More types of content for more types of players = win isn’kitten

You may consider challenging content a win. But you just have to look the big picture.
It is actually a failure even before start, not a win.
Challenging content is only fun as long it remains a challenge that you cant deal with or if the reward is apealing to you after completing it.

By definition, challenging content has a lapsed time where challenge lovers or any kind of player can have fun with.
After that time, it will be wasted content and wasted resources by anet.

Anet, focus on the kind of content all your players will enjoy, for as long as GW2 lives, and dont fall in the trap of challenging content.
We dont want it, not even the ones who now claim for it. They won’t want it in a few weeks and you will have to create new content for them, and waste even more resources in lapsed content.

And maddoctor, you said that if we have a lot of different content, the better for the game, right?
Well, no, cause in this case, we are talking about lapsed content. Content that nobody will do or will want in a few months. Resources wasted. Instead of making a better game, they choosed to give some resources into lapsed content instead of real content.
I understand why, dont get me wrong. If with this, they manage to make more players (the ones looking for challenging content) to buy, mission accomplished.

But it is not real and durable content. It is just a carrot.
Something that will bring people who doesnt look to the big picture into the expansion.

In a few months after HoT release, when challenge lovers demand new challenging content, or new rewards, or bla bla bla, ill be glad to tell you all: “I told you so”

“Anet, focus on the kind of content all your players will enjoy, for as long as GW2 lives, and dont fall in the trap of challenging content.”

Sadly a lot of people are grinding.. not having fun at all, just doing it for the reward. Untill they get bored / burned out by it.

Basically, the challeging content does not have to last forever in terms of replayability, as long as it’s holds people long enough for the next expansion to be released and also offers fun to new players.

Then there will always be people doing the content, and people don’t get bored because they did run out of content.

Some people don't like hard mode

in Guild Wars 2: Heart of Thorns

Posted by: phys.7689

phys.7689

this isn’t a competitive sport.
it isn’t even a competition.
the aim isn’t for you to prove how better you are than your fellow men.
you want something challenging and hard and competitive? start playing chess.

So your point is unless you are profession in a competitive activity you shouldn’t try to better yourself and nobody should reward the skill or dedication of someone?

You can better yourself of course, but in activities that are not competitive you should not expect any more rewards that the satisfaction of getting better. You are expecting to be rewarded for doing better sandcastles in the kiddie playground. And you fully expect other kids to be denied those rewards just because they’d rather prefer to dig holes or just socialize. That’s not fairness, that’s a joke.

This is a mixed bag here – yes there have been complaints about every single one of the but the complaints are not generated because these items exist but because these items are only obtainable through ridiculous RNG.

Yes for some (Teq, Triple wurm, Fractals, sw carapace chest), no for others (hellfire/radiant case where complains are about them requiring too much ap, dungeon skins – those complains ended in making them available through pvp, all those are not rng based in the slightest), but in the end all of those complains can be reduced to the same basis: “those are too hard to get”.
And in the end all suggestions are about making them easier to get. Except the suggestions from “elites”, ofc.

http://www.statesmanjournal.com/story/travel/outdoors/2015/08/17/dig-right-aug-annual-sand-castle-competition/31857865/
http://www.timeout.com/newyork/things-to-do/sand-castle-contests-at-rockaway-beach-and-coney-island

yup they have sand castle competitions, with various rewards at various levels.

Some people don't like hard mode

in Guild Wars 2: Heart of Thorns

Posted by: maddoctor.2738

maddoctor.2738

Yes, I agree most people who frequent these forums know you can buy runs. But I know quite a few people who walked into a dungeon solo, got killed at the first encounter and never went near one again.

And my point still stand. If they DID want the title they would have it. Which means they would take the time and put the effort to understand how everything works. That they gave up after the first encounters and didn’t bother to look for more information is clear that they don’t want that title, nor the rewards that come from dungeons.

Some people don't like hard mode

in Guild Wars 2: Heart of Thorns

Posted by: Snow.2048

Snow.2048

It’s bloody guild wars 2, do you guys remember the npe? Where they took out natural skill unlocking for a level system because they thought it was to difficult for players to understand? That’s what they consider the average player to be, the challenging GROUP content will probably be on par with tying your shoe, a (arguable) challenge at first due to its newness. But within a month, even those without a chance will be carried and feel good about themselves not knowing they were carried.
And if being account bound/soul bound reduces the rng, then I am all for it. Besides, the gem store stuff will still generally be the shiniest stuff on the block anyway. So please, just keep up giving everything unique/exclusive skins. It makes collecting an actual effort.

As for gold farmers getting all uppity about not being able to buy a skin, you guys get unique account bound skins by being the only ones able to buy through (or around) the sometimes insane RNG, such as with the ghost wolf pup (seriously who else can afford thousands of tot bags for 1 mini?!). You don’t get all the skins as it is. Neither do I, because I’m always broke. So what is the problem with a few more skins neither of us will get (because I ain’t stupid enough to pre-purchase any digital content =P)

(edited by Snow.2048)

Some people don't like hard mode

in Guild Wars 2: Heart of Thorns

Posted by: phys.7689

phys.7689

Do you really think that casual players will just sit around and watch better players get all kinds of cool stuff, while they sit in the wings? Some will, sure, but what percentage. That’s the hundred thousand dollar question.

And how many players are leaving the game because of the grind, grind, grind and luck involved? How many players who used to be collectors in other games do not collect anything in this one because there is such a grind or rng involved to collect things? How many of those already left? How many players that write guides and try to make the game better for everyone still play waiting for something more to come? How long do you think all those kinds of players (including casual mini collectors) will stay in the game if everything they want is behind an endless grind?

I don’t know. But I do know that without that grind, even with challenging content, there is no MMO. No company can make content fast enough for people who play all the time to be satisfied. No company has done it yet. You seem to equate the grind with hard content getting good rewards.

I don’t. I equate the grind with the idea that to keep people playing there really aren’t any options. You can do it like some games do, and make the drops very rare in a specific raid (or a fractal weapon skin), or you can make the grind so that anyone can get it, but it takes a while.

If you see another option I’d sure like to hear it.

Or put the rewards behind challenging content that will make the majority of players much longer to get. Much like how hard it was/is to get the Dungeon Master achievement unless you master a fight like Simin. It took players months to get that fight right, but now it’s “farm” mode for those who mastered it and at least much more doable for everyone else.

Do you believe the majority of players have dungeon master? I’d love for someone from Anet to come and tell us what percentage of players have it. I do, but I know that 90% of my guild doesn’t. Those are the very rewards that need to be used sparingly, or you risk losing the casuals.

And why don’t they have it? It’s not like it’s hard to get now with all the spot selling going around. Or all the guides written about it, or maybe asking for help from a dungeon master, there are more than enough willing to teach all the dungeons even to total newcomers. The actual dungeon community is very casual-friendly (not the kind of reward seekers on the LFG tool)

Those who don’t have Dungeon Master, simply don’t want to have it.

You really don’t get it. Do you know how many people have never entered a dungeon and don’t KNOW about paths being sold. You can only see this from the point of view of a forum poster. Of people who frequent websites. Of people who join guilds.

People don’t have it, because it’s really really far out of their comfort zone. It’s not that it’s not attainable, it’s that it’s SEEN as not attainable. You can believe all you want that people know that they can get this, but I’m pretty sure a healthy percentage of the playerbase doesn’t know if you use a skill while downed and trying to rez yourself that it interrupts it.

Yes, I agree most people who frequent these forums know you can buy runs. But I know quite a few people who walked into a dungeon solo, got killed at the first encounter and never went near one again.

if you dont like dungeons at all, why would you want a dungeon master title.
Most people are willing to accept that they can only get certain things from doing certain things.

this idea that everyone has to be able to get everything or they quit is completely inaccurate, i guarantee you 99% of people dont have everything the game has to offer. and most people have content they just dont like, so therefore avoid.

one of the best executions of rewards was SAB. sellable rare drops, earnable by tokens account bound, special colors for harder achievements. This made the rewards approachable by all types, but gave various ways and investments for playing the mode in different styles of play.

All playtypes could approach these rewards

Some people don't like hard mode

in Guild Wars 2: Heart of Thorns

Posted by: phys.7689

phys.7689

It’s bloody guild wars 2, do you guys remember the npe? Where they took out natural skill unlocking for a level system because they thought it was to difficult for players to understand? That’s what they consider the average player to be, the challenging GROUP content will probably be on par with tying your shoe, a (arguable) challenge at first due to its newness. But within a month, even those without a chance will be carried and feel good about themselves not knowing they were carried.
And if being account bound/soul bound reduces the rng, then I am all for it. Besides, the gem store stuff will still generally be the shiniest stuff on the block anyway. So please, just keep up giving everything unique/exclusive skins. It makes collecting an actual effort.

As for gold farmers getting all uppity about not being able to buy a skin, you guys get unique account bound skins by being the only ones able to buy through (or around) the sometimes insane RNG, such as with the ghost wolf pup (seriously who else can afford thousands of tot bags for 1 mini?!). You don’t get all the skins as it is. Neither do I, because I’m always broke. So what is the problem with a few more skins neither of us will get (because I ain’t stupid enough to pre-purchase any digital content =P)

this is a valid point, the repetive grinders essentially have their own exclusive content. People who dont enjoy open world repetive grind are locked out of certain rewards as well.

Some people don't like hard mode

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Posted by: Vayne.8563

Vayne.8563

Yes, I agree most people who frequent these forums know you can buy runs. But I know quite a few people who walked into a dungeon solo, got killed at the first encounter and never went near one again.

And my point still stand. If they DID want the title they would have it. Which means they would take the time and put the effort to understand how everything works. That they gave up after the first encounters and didn’t bother to look for more information is clear that they don’t want that title, nor the rewards that come from dungeons.

We’re never going to agree on this. You seem to think that everyone has to think the way you do and I think some people think differently. They can want the title and really truly not believe they have any chance at all to get it. That’s a fact, because I know people like that. In spite of the fact that I assure them they can get it.

It doesn’t matter if you’re right. It only matters what people think/feel. I believe there are enough people that feel left out of that type of content, and no amount of talking on your part or mine will change them.

Some people don't like hard mode

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Posted by: Harper.4173

Harper.4173

Do you really think that casual players will just sit around and watch better players get all kinds of cool stuff, while they sit in the wings? Some will, sure, but what percentage. That’s the hundred thousand dollar question.

And how many players are leaving the game because of the grind, grind, grind and luck involved? How many players who used to be collectors in other games do not collect anything in this one because there is such a grind or rng involved to collect things? How many of those already left? How many players that write guides and try to make the game better for everyone still play waiting for something more to come? How long do you think all those kinds of players (including casual mini collectors) will stay in the game if everything they want is behind an endless grind?

I don’t know. But I do know that without that grind, even with challenging content, there is no MMO. No company can make content fast enough for people who play all the time to be satisfied. No company has done it yet. You seem to equate the grind with hard content getting good rewards.

I don’t. I equate the grind with the idea that to keep people playing there really aren’t any options. You can do it like some games do, and make the drops very rare in a specific raid (or a fractal weapon skin), or you can make the grind so that anyone can get it, but it takes a while.

If you see another option I’d sure like to hear it.

Or put the rewards behind challenging content that will make the majority of players much longer to get. Much like how hard it was/is to get the Dungeon Master achievement unless you master a fight like Simin. It took players months to get that fight right, but now it’s “farm” mode for those who mastered it and at least much more doable for everyone else.

Do you believe the majority of players have dungeon master? I’d love for someone from Anet to come and tell us what percentage of players have it. I do, but I know that 90% of my guild doesn’t. Those are the very rewards that need to be used sparingly, or you risk losing the casuals.

And why don’t they have it? It’s not like it’s hard to get now with all the spot selling going around. Or all the guides written about it, or maybe asking for help from a dungeon master, there are more than enough willing to teach all the dungeons even to total newcomers. The actual dungeon community is very casual-friendly (not the kind of reward seekers on the LFG tool)

Those who don’t have Dungeon Master, simply don’t want to have it.

You really don’t get it. Do you know how many people have never entered a dungeon and don’t KNOW about paths being sold. You can only see this from the point of view of a forum poster. Of people who frequent websites. Of people who join guilds.

People don’t have it, because it’s really really far out of their comfort zone. It’s not that it’s not attainable, it’s that it’s SEEN as not attainable. You can believe all you want that people know that they can get this, but I’m pretty sure a healthy percentage of the playerbase doesn’t know if you use a skill while downed and trying to rez yourself that it interrupts it.

Yes, I agree most people who frequent these forums know you can buy runs. But I know quite a few people who walked into a dungeon solo, got killed at the first encounter and never went near one again.

So why don’t they step up their game? Because simply sitting in your comfort zone isn’t an option anywhere – so why should it be here?

If they player base is that bad -they should get better – because the player base you describe is so far out of touch with the game and incompetent that designing a game for them must be hell for any developer.

Where are the good old days where if you were bad you simply tried to get better instead of demanding the content be more suited to your “needs”.
I’m not staying content should be incredibly hard – but if the bar is set so low how are people going to improve? Ultimately allowing them every benefit while still within their comfort zone is a really good way to lose players via boredom.

Also – how can one person just “walk into a dungeon solo” when the pop-up that appears when attempting to enter the dungeon clearly states you need more than one person.

These people you mention don’t really have a problem with Gw2 – their core problem is reading comprehension. I don’t think they should be taken into account when designing a game.

If here they fall they shall live on when ever you cry “For Ascalon!”

Some people don't like hard mode

in Guild Wars 2: Heart of Thorns

Posted by: Harper.4173

Harper.4173

Yes, I agree most people who frequent these forums know you can buy runs. But I know quite a few people who walked into a dungeon solo, got killed at the first encounter and never went near one again.

And my point still stand. If they DID want the title they would have it. Which means they would take the time and put the effort to understand how everything works. That they gave up after the first encounters and didn’t bother to look for more information is clear that they don’t want that title, nor the rewards that come from dungeons.

What Vayne means most likely is that they want the title but they also want it handed to them. Not very obviously because they want to trick themselves into thinking they’re actually awesome but very easily obtainable preferably while not having to do anything special or too straining such as actually doing something different from what they usually do.

If here they fall they shall live on when ever you cry “For Ascalon!”

Some people don't like hard mode

in Guild Wars 2: Heart of Thorns

Posted by: Vayne.8563

Vayne.8563

Do you really think that casual players will just sit around and watch better players get all kinds of cool stuff, while they sit in the wings? Some will, sure, but what percentage. That’s the hundred thousand dollar question.

And how many players are leaving the game because of the grind, grind, grind and luck involved? How many players who used to be collectors in other games do not collect anything in this one because there is such a grind or rng involved to collect things? How many of those already left? How many players that write guides and try to make the game better for everyone still play waiting for something more to come? How long do you think all those kinds of players (including casual mini collectors) will stay in the game if everything they want is behind an endless grind?

I don’t know. But I do know that without that grind, even with challenging content, there is no MMO. No company can make content fast enough for people who play all the time to be satisfied. No company has done it yet. You seem to equate the grind with hard content getting good rewards.

I don’t. I equate the grind with the idea that to keep people playing there really aren’t any options. You can do it like some games do, and make the drops very rare in a specific raid (or a fractal weapon skin), or you can make the grind so that anyone can get it, but it takes a while.

If you see another option I’d sure like to hear it.

Or put the rewards behind challenging content that will make the majority of players much longer to get. Much like how hard it was/is to get the Dungeon Master achievement unless you master a fight like Simin. It took players months to get that fight right, but now it’s “farm” mode for those who mastered it and at least much more doable for everyone else.

Do you believe the majority of players have dungeon master? I’d love for someone from Anet to come and tell us what percentage of players have it. I do, but I know that 90% of my guild doesn’t. Those are the very rewards that need to be used sparingly, or you risk losing the casuals.

And why don’t they have it? It’s not like it’s hard to get now with all the spot selling going around. Or all the guides written about it, or maybe asking for help from a dungeon master, there are more than enough willing to teach all the dungeons even to total newcomers. The actual dungeon community is very casual-friendly (not the kind of reward seekers on the LFG tool)

Those who don’t have Dungeon Master, simply don’t want to have it.

You really don’t get it. Do you know how many people have never entered a dungeon and don’t KNOW about paths being sold. You can only see this from the point of view of a forum poster. Of people who frequent websites. Of people who join guilds.

People don’t have it, because it’s really really far out of their comfort zone. It’s not that it’s not attainable, it’s that it’s SEEN as not attainable. You can believe all you want that people know that they can get this, but I’m pretty sure a healthy percentage of the playerbase doesn’t know if you use a skill while downed and trying to rez yourself that it interrupts it.

Yes, I agree most people who frequent these forums know you can buy runs. But I know quite a few people who walked into a dungeon solo, got killed at the first encounter and never went near one again.

So why don’t they step up their game? Because simply sitting in your comfort zone isn’t an option anywhere – so why should it be here?

If they player base is that bad -they should get better – because the player base you describe is so far out of touch with the game and incompetent that designing a game for them must be hell for any developer.

Where are the good old days where if you were bad you simply tried to get better instead of demanding the content be more suited to your “needs”.
I’m not staying content should be incredibly hard – but if the bar is set so low how are people going to improve? Ultimately allowing them every benefit while still within their comfort zone is a really good way to lose players via boredom.

Also – how can one person just “walk into a dungeon solo” when the pop-up that appears when attempting to enter the dungeon clearly states you need more than one person.

These people you mention don’t really have a problem with Gw2 – their core problem is reading comprehension. I don’t think they should be taken into account when designing a game.

You can say what you like about this, but it doesn’t change anything. Those people exist, they exist in numbers, and your personal belief isn’t going to change how they behave. You can say it’s wrong from today till next year and it will change nothing. These people are out there. They form, in my opinion, a significant percentage of this game (and every MMO’s) population.

They didn’t come here to play a competitive game. They didn’t come here to “get better”. They didn’t want a job or stress when they sit down to play. And you telling them they’re wrong for feeling that way won’t change a thing.

The question is are they more numerous, or are hardcore players. That’s really the only question.

Some people don't like hard mode

in Guild Wars 2: Heart of Thorns

Posted by: Harper.4173

Harper.4173

Yes, I agree most people who frequent these forums know you can buy runs. But I know quite a few people who walked into a dungeon solo, got killed at the first encounter and never went near one again.

And my point still stand. If they DID want the title they would have it. Which means they would take the time and put the effort to understand how everything works. That they gave up after the first encounters and didn’t bother to look for more information is clear that they don’t want that title, nor the rewards that come from dungeons.

We’re never going to agree on this. You seem to think that everyone has to think the way you do and I think some people think differently. They can want the title and really truly not believe they have any chance at all to get it. That’s a fact, because I know people like that. In spite of the fact that I assure them they can get it.

It doesn’t matter if you’re right. It only matters what people think/feel. I believe there are enough people that feel left out of that type of content, and no amount of talking on your part or mine will change them.

Again – as I posted before the problem in bold is not a game-related problem but a people related problem – their insecurity or perceived incompetence are things they have to sort out for themselves and not something the developers should build around.

I mean – look at it this way – if some people are prone to suicide can video game developers no longer implement dark/depressing themes for fear that one of these suicide-prone people might feel too strained and opt out? That’s absurd.

People’s feeling and perceived problems are well just that – their own feelings and problems. If they can’t handle them why should anyone else? Why should a game be built around it?
If they can’t handle the game then maybe it’s time to move on to something else more comfortable.

If here they fall they shall live on when ever you cry “For Ascalon!”

Some people don't like hard mode

in Guild Wars 2: Heart of Thorns

Posted by: Astralporing.1957

Astralporing.1957

this isn’t a competitive sport.
it isn’t even a competition.
the aim isn’t for you to prove how better you are than your fellow men.
you want something challenging and hard and competitive? start playing chess.

So your point is unless you are profession in a competitive activity you shouldn’t try to better yourself and nobody should reward the skill or dedication of someone?

You can better yourself of course, but in activities that are not competitive you should not expect any more rewards that the satisfaction of getting better. You are expecting to be rewarded for doing better sandcastles in the kiddie playground. And you fully expect other kids to be denied those rewards just because they’d rather prefer to dig holes or just socialize. That’s not fairness, that’s a joke.

This is a mixed bag here – yes there have been complaints about every single one of the but the complaints are not generated because these items exist but because these items are only obtainable through ridiculous RNG.

Yes for some (Teq, Triple wurm, Fractals, sw carapace chest), no for others (hellfire/radiant case where complains are about them requiring too much ap, dungeon skins – those complains ended in making them available through pvp, all those are not rng based in the slightest), but in the end all of those complains can be reduced to the same basis: “those are too hard to get”.
And in the end all suggestions are about making them easier to get. Except the suggestions from “elites”, ofc.

http://www.statesmanjournal.com/story/travel/outdoors/2015/08/17/dig-right-aug-annual-sand-castle-competition/31857865/
http://www.timeout.com/newyork/things-to-do/sand-castle-contests-at-rockaway-beach-and-coney-island

yup they have sand castle competitions, with various rewards at various levels.

So? If you want to be rewarded for building sandcastles, go to the sandcastle building competition, but you really shouldn’t expect every beach to be turned into one.

Actions, not words.
Remember, remember, 15th of November

Some people don't like hard mode

in Guild Wars 2: Heart of Thorns

Posted by: Vayne.8563

Vayne.8563

Yes, I agree most people who frequent these forums know you can buy runs. But I know quite a few people who walked into a dungeon solo, got killed at the first encounter and never went near one again.

And my point still stand. If they DID want the title they would have it. Which means they would take the time and put the effort to understand how everything works. That they gave up after the first encounters and didn’t bother to look for more information is clear that they don’t want that title, nor the rewards that come from dungeons.

We’re never going to agree on this. You seem to think that everyone has to think the way you do and I think some people think differently. They can want the title and really truly not believe they have any chance at all to get it. That’s a fact, because I know people like that. In spite of the fact that I assure them they can get it.

It doesn’t matter if you’re right. It only matters what people think/feel. I believe there are enough people that feel left out of that type of content, and no amount of talking on your part or mine will change them.

Again – as I posted before the problem in bold is not a game-related problem but a people related problem – their insecurity or perceived incompetence are things they have to sort out for themselves and not something the developers should build around.

I mean – look at it this way – if some people are prone to suicide can video game developers no longer implement dark/depressing themes for fear that one of these suicide-prone people might feel too strained and opt out? That’s absurd.

People’s feeling and perceived problems are well just that – their own feelings and problems. If they can’t handle them why should anyone else? Why should a game be built around it?
If they can’t handle the game then maybe it’s time to move on to something else more comfortable.

Like it or not, people with perceived problems are still a portion of the playerbase and if that percentage is significant, Anet would be foolish to send them packing, or make a game that alienates them.

It all comes down to balance. Allowing rewards to be sold keeps that balance. I haven’t seen other suggestions that keep it. Anyway, I’m not going to convince you, you’re not going to convince me and I strongly suspect neither of us are going to convince Anet, so I’m just going to leave it here. Anet has a better idea of what’s what than I do, and whatever they decide, I’m sure they’re deciding it based on their own metrics, as well as user feedback.

Some people don't like hard mode

in Guild Wars 2: Heart of Thorns

Posted by: Harper.4173

Harper.4173

Do you really think that casual players will just sit around and watch better players get all kinds of cool stuff, while they sit in the wings? Some will, sure, but what percentage. That’s the hundred thousand dollar question.

And how many players are leaving the game because of the grind, grind, grind and luck involved? How many players who used to be collectors in other games do not collect anything in this one because there is such a grind or rng involved to collect things? How many of those already left? How many players that write guides and try to make the game better for everyone still play waiting for something more to come? How long do you think all those kinds of players (including casual mini collectors) will stay in the game if everything they want is behind an endless grind?

I don’t know. But I do know that without that grind, even with challenging content, there is no MMO. No company can make content fast enough for people who play all the time to be satisfied. No company has done it yet. You seem to equate the grind with hard content getting good rewards.

I don’t. I equate the grind with the idea that to keep people playing there really aren’t any options. You can do it like some games do, and make the drops very rare in a specific raid (or a fractal weapon skin), or you can make the grind so that anyone can get it, but it takes a while.

If you see another option I’d sure like to hear it.

Or put the rewards behind challenging content that will make the majority of players much longer to get. Much like how hard it was/is to get the Dungeon Master achievement unless you master a fight like Simin. It took players months to get that fight right, but now it’s “farm” mode for those who mastered it and at least much more doable for everyone else.

Do you believe the majority of players have dungeon master? I’d love for someone from Anet to come and tell us what percentage of players have it. I do, but I know that 90% of my guild doesn’t. Those are the very rewards that need to be used sparingly, or you risk losing the casuals.

And why don’t they have it? It’s not like it’s hard to get now with all the spot selling going around. Or all the guides written about it, or maybe asking for help from a dungeon master, there are more than enough willing to teach all the dungeons even to total newcomers. The actual dungeon community is very casual-friendly (not the kind of reward seekers on the LFG tool)

Those who don’t have Dungeon Master, simply don’t want to have it.

You really don’t get it. Do you know how many people have never entered a dungeon and don’t KNOW about paths being sold. You can only see this from the point of view of a forum poster. Of people who frequent websites. Of people who join guilds.

People don’t have it, because it’s really really far out of their comfort zone. It’s not that it’s not attainable, it’s that it’s SEEN as not attainable. You can believe all you want that people know that they can get this, but I’m pretty sure a healthy percentage of the playerbase doesn’t know if you use a skill while downed and trying to rez yourself that it interrupts it.

Yes, I agree most people who frequent these forums know you can buy runs. But I know quite a few people who walked into a dungeon solo, got killed at the first encounter and never went near one again.

So why don’t they step up their game? Because simply sitting in your comfort zone isn’t an option anywhere – so why should it be here?

If they player base is that bad -they should get better – because the player base you describe is so far out of touch with the game and incompetent that designing a game for them must be hell for any developer.

Where are the good old days where if you were bad you simply tried to get better instead of demanding the content be more suited to your “needs”.
I’m not staying content should be incredibly hard – but if the bar is set so low how are people going to improve? Ultimately allowing them every benefit while still within their comfort zone is a really good way to lose players via boredom.

Also – how can one person just “walk into a dungeon solo” when the pop-up that appears when attempting to enter the dungeon clearly states you need more than one person.

These people you mention don’t really have a problem with Gw2 – their core problem is reading comprehension. I don’t think they should be taken into account when designing a game.

You can say what you like about this, but it doesn’t change anything. Those people exist, they exist in numbers, and your personal belief isn’t going to change how they behave. You can say it’s wrong from today till next year and it will change nothing. These people are out there. They form, in my opinion, a significant percentage of this game (and every MMO’s) population.

They didn’t come here to play a competitive game. They didn’t come here to “get better”. They didn’t want a job or stress when they sit down to play. And you telling them they’re wrong for feeling that way won’t change a thing.

The question is are they more numerous, or are hardcore players. That’s really the only question.

These people as you call and describe them are then so out of touch and incompetent that no matter what you do as a developer you’ll end up somehow ruining their play experience.
If they’re truly as maladjusted as you say then how can you even build a game if you have to take into account all their possible issues? you can’t.

Also – I have no idea why they came here at all if what you’re describing is true. It’s just not right for them – again with the dungeon situation you mentioned – what are those people doing in an online game if reading is still something they haven’t mastered?

If they didn’t come here to compete that’s great – why should they care then if me and others like me want to compete against each other?
Why will they be upset at a competition between others if they’re not here for one?

They came here not looking for a competition but they’re wrong because me and others would like to compete and they’re saying we can’t because they don’t like that despite the fact that they’re not here for that.
They’re wrong because they can’t live and let live – because they can’t or won’t do something nobody else should either. Which is absurd.

I dislike chatting and idling in towns in game – I don’t do it and it isn’t fun for me – do you see me flooding the forums with “I hope Anet does some changes to stop all those people idling and chatting in towns – it’s really disruptive of my play experience” or “I hope HoT has some anti-chat-idling feature because otherwise I’ll feel left out” ?

No – I do my thing and let others do theirs – is it too much to ask for the same?

If here they fall they shall live on when ever you cry “For Ascalon!”

Some people don't like hard mode

in Guild Wars 2: Heart of Thorns

Posted by: Astralporing.1957

Astralporing.1957

Again – as I posted before the problem in bold is not a game-related problem but a people related problem

Well, so is so called lack of hardcore content.
The truth is, most people that ask for challenging content also do not want to be themselves challenged. They want the content they themselves will be able to finish, but that everyone else will have problems with.
There’s a reason why most of those people don’t accept pvp as this kind of content – it’s because they themselves are not good at it.

So, in the end, there’s no real difference here.

Actions, not words.
Remember, remember, 15th of November

(edited by Astralporing.1957)

Some people don't like hard mode

in Guild Wars 2: Heart of Thorns

Posted by: Harper.4173

Harper.4173

It all comes down to balance. Allowing rewards to be sold keeps that balance. I haven’t seen other suggestions that keep it.

Did you miss my solution?

You can mix the two methods – RNG and token based. How?
An item costs a specific number of tokens.
You are always awarded tokens for doing the game content associated with the wanted item.
RNG dictates the number of tokens you are awarded with a set minimum and maximum.
That way you still get that “buzz” of “wow I got 10 token today happy happy lucky day” but you don’t rely entirely on RNG to get your weapon and provided you stick with it you can “fight off” bad luck and eventually get what you were aiming for.

It works for fixing RNG and it can fix other things as well.

Imagine this – you want X item – you can do some hardcore content to get tokens for it which will give you let’s say 10 tokens per day or you can take the “casual” approach that gives you 1-2 tokens per day.
You won’t be as fast as the hardcore but it is most definitely not out of your reach.

If here they fall they shall live on when ever you cry “For Ascalon!”

Some people don't like hard mode

in Guild Wars 2: Heart of Thorns

Posted by: phys.7689

phys.7689

Do you really think that casual players will just sit around and watch better players get all kinds of cool stuff, while they sit in the wings? Some will, sure, but what percentage. That’s the hundred thousand dollar question.

And how many players are leaving the game because of the grind, grind, grind and luck involved? How many players who used to be collectors in other games do not collect anything in this one because there is such a grind or rng involved to collect things? How many of those already left? How many players that write guides and try to make the game better for everyone still play waiting for something more to come? How long do you think all those kinds of players (including casual mini collectors) will stay in the game if everything they want is behind an endless grind?

I don’t know. But I do know that without that grind, even with challenging content, there is no MMO. No company can make content fast enough for people who play all the time to be satisfied. No company has done it yet. You seem to equate the grind with hard content getting good rewards.

I don’t. I equate the grind with the idea that to keep people playing there really aren’t any options. You can do it like some games do, and make the drops very rare in a specific raid (or a fractal weapon skin), or you can make the grind so that anyone can get it, but it takes a while.

If you see another option I’d sure like to hear it.

Or put the rewards behind challenging content that will make the majority of players much longer to get. Much like how hard it was/is to get the Dungeon Master achievement unless you master a fight like Simin. It took players months to get that fight right, but now it’s “farm” mode for those who mastered it and at least much more doable for everyone else.

Do you believe the majority of players have dungeon master? I’d love for someone from Anet to come and tell us what percentage of players have it. I do, but I know that 90% of my guild doesn’t. Those are the very rewards that need to be used sparingly, or you risk losing the casuals.

And why don’t they have it? It’s not like it’s hard to get now with all the spot selling going around. Or all the guides written about it, or maybe asking for help from a dungeon master, there are more than enough willing to teach all the dungeons even to total newcomers. The actual dungeon community is very casual-friendly (not the kind of reward seekers on the LFG tool)

Those who don’t have Dungeon Master, simply don’t want to have it.

You really don’t get it. Do you know how many people have never entered a dungeon and don’t KNOW about paths being sold. You can only see this from the point of view of a forum poster. Of people who frequent websites. Of people who join guilds.

People don’t have it, because it’s really really far out of their comfort zone. It’s not that it’s not attainable, it’s that it’s SEEN as not attainable. You can believe all you want that people know that they can get this, but I’m pretty sure a healthy percentage of the playerbase doesn’t know if you use a skill while downed and trying to rez yourself that it interrupts it.

Yes, I agree most people who frequent these forums know you can buy runs. But I know quite a few people who walked into a dungeon solo, got killed at the first encounter and never went near one again.

So why don’t they step up their game? Because simply sitting in your comfort zone isn’t an option anywhere – so why should it be here?

If they player base is that bad -they should get better – because the player base you describe is so far out of touch with the game and incompetent that designing a game for them must be hell for any developer.

Where are the good old days where if you were bad you simply tried to get better instead of demanding the content be more suited to your “needs”.
I’m not staying content should be incredibly hard – but if the bar is set so low how are people going to improve? Ultimately allowing them every benefit while still within their comfort zone is a really good way to lose players via boredom.

Also – how can one person just “walk into a dungeon solo” when the pop-up that appears when attempting to enter the dungeon clearly states you need more than one person.

These people you mention don’t really have a problem with Gw2 – their core problem is reading comprehension. I don’t think they should be taken into account when designing a game.

You can say what you like about this, but it doesn’t change anything. Those people exist, they exist in numbers, and your personal belief isn’t going to change how they behave. You can say it’s wrong from today till next year and it will change nothing. These people are out there. They form, in my opinion, a significant percentage of this game (and every MMO’s) population.

They didn’t come here to play a competitive game. They didn’t come here to “get better”. They didn’t want a job or stress when they sit down to play. And you telling them they’re wrong for feeling that way won’t change a thing.

The question is are they more numerous, or are hardcore players. That’s really the only question.

i dont think most mmo players want to get everything without playing the game. pretty sure its a very small minority of players than want the dungeon title but dont want to do any dungeons.

Some people don't like hard mode

in Guild Wars 2: Heart of Thorns

Posted by: Vayne.8563

Vayne.8563

Do you really think that casual players will just sit around and watch better players get all kinds of cool stuff, while they sit in the wings? Some will, sure, but what percentage. That’s the hundred thousand dollar question.

And how many players are leaving the game because of the grind, grind, grind and luck involved? How many players who used to be collectors in other games do not collect anything in this one because there is such a grind or rng involved to collect things? How many of those already left? How many players that write guides and try to make the game better for everyone still play waiting for something more to come? How long do you think all those kinds of players (including casual mini collectors) will stay in the game if everything they want is behind an endless grind?

I don’t know. But I do know that without that grind, even with challenging content, there is no MMO. No company can make content fast enough for people who play all the time to be satisfied. No company has done it yet. You seem to equate the grind with hard content getting good rewards.

I don’t. I equate the grind with the idea that to keep people playing there really aren’t any options. You can do it like some games do, and make the drops very rare in a specific raid (or a fractal weapon skin), or you can make the grind so that anyone can get it, but it takes a while.

If you see another option I’d sure like to hear it.

Or put the rewards behind challenging content that will make the majority of players much longer to get. Much like how hard it was/is to get the Dungeon Master achievement unless you master a fight like Simin. It took players months to get that fight right, but now it’s “farm” mode for those who mastered it and at least much more doable for everyone else.

Do you believe the majority of players have dungeon master? I’d love for someone from Anet to come and tell us what percentage of players have it. I do, but I know that 90% of my guild doesn’t. Those are the very rewards that need to be used sparingly, or you risk losing the casuals.

And why don’t they have it? It’s not like it’s hard to get now with all the spot selling going around. Or all the guides written about it, or maybe asking for help from a dungeon master, there are more than enough willing to teach all the dungeons even to total newcomers. The actual dungeon community is very casual-friendly (not the kind of reward seekers on the LFG tool)

Those who don’t have Dungeon Master, simply don’t want to have it.

You really don’t get it. Do you know how many people have never entered a dungeon and don’t KNOW about paths being sold. You can only see this from the point of view of a forum poster. Of people who frequent websites. Of people who join guilds.

People don’t have it, because it’s really really far out of their comfort zone. It’s not that it’s not attainable, it’s that it’s SEEN as not attainable. You can believe all you want that people know that they can get this, but I’m pretty sure a healthy percentage of the playerbase doesn’t know if you use a skill while downed and trying to rez yourself that it interrupts it.

Yes, I agree most people who frequent these forums know you can buy runs. But I know quite a few people who walked into a dungeon solo, got killed at the first encounter and never went near one again.

So why don’t they step up their game? Because simply sitting in your comfort zone isn’t an option anywhere – so why should it be here?

If they player base is that bad -they should get better – because the player base you describe is so far out of touch with the game and incompetent that designing a game for them must be hell for any developer.

Where are the good old days where if you were bad you simply tried to get better instead of demanding the content be more suited to your “needs”.
I’m not staying content should be incredibly hard – but if the bar is set so low how are people going to improve? Ultimately allowing them every benefit while still within their comfort zone is a really good way to lose players via boredom.

Also – how can one person just “walk into a dungeon solo” when the pop-up that appears when attempting to enter the dungeon clearly states you need more than one person.

These people you mention don’t really have a problem with Gw2 – their core problem is reading comprehension. I don’t think they should be taken into account when designing a game.

You can say what you like about this, but it doesn’t change anything. Those people exist, they exist in numbers, and your personal belief isn’t going to change how they behave. You can say it’s wrong from today till next year and it will change nothing. These people are out there. They form, in my opinion, a significant percentage of this game (and every MMO’s) population.

They didn’t come here to play a competitive game. They didn’t come here to “get better”. They didn’t want a job or stress when they sit down to play. And you telling them they’re wrong for feeling that way won’t change a thing.

The question is are they more numerous, or are hardcore players. That’s really the only question.

i dont think most mmo players want to get everything without playing the game. pretty sure its a very small minority of players than want the dungeon title but dont want to do any dungeons.

Which isn’t to say a majority doesn’t want the liadri mini and can’t get it. Depends on the reward, doesn’kitten

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Posted by: Snow.2048

Snow.2048

The question is are they more numerous, or are hardcore players. That’s really the only question.

Wow what an absolute. By this logic, any minorities groups should just gtfo.

There are more groups involved, and here’s a little spoiler, rarely does any individual belong to only one group. Stop making it so personal, them versus us when it could be “Everyone gets a little something, the majority just get a bit more!”

And in general, the dungeon title is probably a poor example, because even just plain old pugging and they’ll get carried to it eventually without having to get better.

(edited by Snow.2048)

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Posted by: Vayne.8563

Vayne.8563

It all comes down to balance. Allowing rewards to be sold keeps that balance. I haven’t seen other suggestions that keep it.

Did you miss my solution?

You can mix the two methods – RNG and token based. How?
An item costs a specific number of tokens.
You are always awarded tokens for doing the game content associated with the wanted item.
RNG dictates the number of tokens you are awarded with a set minimum and maximum.
That way you still get that “buzz” of “wow I got 10 token today happy happy lucky day” but you don’t rely entirely on RNG to get your weapon and provided you stick with it you can “fight off” bad luck and eventually get what you were aiming for.

It works for fixing RNG and it can fix other things as well.

Imagine this – you want X item – you can do some hardcore content to get tokens for it which will give you let’s say 10 tokens per day or you can take the “casual” approach that gives you 1-2 tokens per day.
You won’t be as fast as the hardcore but it is most definitely not out of your reach.

As long as you’re giving casuals a reasonable path to the rewards, that’s fine, but I suspect that wouldn’t really be acceptable to the person who wants exclusive rewards. I’d be fine with that system.

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Posted by: Astralporing.1957

Astralporing.1957

i dont think most mmo players want to get everything without playing the game. pretty sure its a very small minority of players than want the dungeon title but dont want to do any dungeons.

Sure, but they might want dungeons they themselves will be able to run. Remember, for a large part of population dungeons, even the really easy ones, are still hard. Forumites, when compared to the rest of the population, are generally exceptionally skilled and esperienced – you shouldn’t assume everyone is around your skill level, or even around you skill potential. There are many players that will never come close, no matter how hard they will try. What you might consider a moderate level of difficulty, that should be cleared by anyone with a little effort, is most likely prohibitively hard to many, many players.

Actions, not words.
Remember, remember, 15th of November

(edited by Astralporing.1957)

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Posted by: phys.7689

phys.7689

Again – as I posted before the problem in bold is not a game-related problem but a people related problem

Well, so is so called lack of hardcore content.
The truth is, most people that ask for challenging content also do not want to be themselves challenged. They want the content they themselves will be able to finish, but that everyone else will have problems with.
There’s a reason why most of those people don’t accept pvp as this kind of content – it’s because they themselves are not good at it.

this is not true, challenge seeking people genuinely like being challenged and get bored of repetition more easily.

there are some people for whom the goal is more about exclusivity or feeling superior, but these people dont necessarilly want challenging content. They can want content that has a pay wall, or a high grind requirement, or require a lot of people to give their rewards.

for these people challenge is one of many tools, but many times they wont even use it. These are the one of the types of people who will seek the most challenging rewards and pay someone to do it for them.

but regardless of personality type, most people are made to not want to be incredibly ineffecient. If the challenging content doesnt have some benefit comenserate with its difficulty, they will abandon it later. keep in mind the same can be said of easy content. Killing white animals is really easy but when it had no benefit, most people wouldnt do it.

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Posted by: Snow.2048

Snow.2048

i dont think most mmo players want to get everything without playing the game. pretty sure its a very small minority of players than want the dungeon title but dont want to do any dungeons.

Sure, but they might want dungeons they themselves will be able to run. Remember, for a large part of population dungeons, even the really easy ones, are still hard. Forumites, when compared to the rest of the population, are generally exceptionally skilled and esperienced – you shouldn’t assume everyone is around your skill level, or even around you skill potential. There are many players that will never come close, no matter how hard they will try. What you might consider a moderate level of difficulty, that should be cleared wby anyone with a little effort, is most likely prohibitively hard to many,l many players.

Isn’t this why they avoid the whole gear check/dps meter/other junk system? So when you get carried, you don’t even notice and feel like you helped and did a good job? (Btw I am just saying, I don’t even know when I’m being carried, carrying or just pulling my own weight, until wipes start happening when someone switches out of the party)

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Posted by: Vayne.8563

Vayne.8563

i dont think most mmo players want to get everything without playing the game. pretty sure its a very small minority of players than want the dungeon title but dont want to do any dungeons.

Sure, but they might want dungeons they themselves will be able to run. Remember, for a large part of population dungeons, even the really easy ones, are still hard. Forumites, when compared to the rest of the population, are generally exceptionally skilled and esperienced – you shouldn’t assume everyone is around your skill level, or even around you skill potential. There are many players that will never come close, no matter how hard they will try. What you might consider a moderate level of difficulty, that should be cleared by anyone with a little effort, is most likely prohibitively hard to many, many players.

I went into TA this week with a party of five. We didn’t get past the wurms in the beginning after three tries. Two people left the party and with those people replaced, we beat the wurms in no time flat.

Those two people, one of whom was new, one has been playing since launch. Sure eventually they might get it, but everyone has a different discouragement threshold.

Also if dungeons could be soloed, I’m convinced a lot more people would do it. I think it’s looking bad in front of others that prevents many from trying.

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Posted by: Annette.6278

Annette.6278

@Ohoni.6057, sorry, man, but i hope that dev won’t listen to you or any other player that can’t do something in the game. Maybe i’ll say now not about the topic a bit. But because of such people like you now we have some things have been maked easier than earlier and it’s not good for players and the game at all. It’s a game. There is no one task that you can’t do. Yes, some of them require more time or efforts but it’s normal! Because of such people like you dev made New Player Experience system as if we’re stupid (sorry, dev but it looks like this). I think that they have received many letters from young players that can’t even read what was written! They don’t wanna use their brain and it’s not dev or our problem! You know it was difficult to read all of these dialogues in english because English is my second language! But i were sitting with dictionary and spent a lot of time! And it was not easy to uderstand what’s going on in the world, on the map, events, items and everything. There were many tasks that i can’t do alone (oh, the ;ast part of Arah is solo now?! What did they do with it for such people as you!…) and i joined an international guild, i started to talk. I have to do it but it was useful! And i say thank you, dev, that it was hard in the beginning. I’m playing for 2 years when i wanted to play. Yes, i still didn’t have my legendary weapon and i still didn’t have an ascended armors! I don’t like what they did with PvP rewarding system and other things. It’s ok that someone is better than me and maybe i’ll never be the first and i’ll never have everything but it’s normal. I don’t wanna be a minion of Mordremoth so no easy tasks anymore!

GW2 is almost a perfect MMORPG. Please, DON"T make it in such way like we are stupid.

(edited by Annette.6278)

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Posted by: Snow.2048

Snow.2048

i dont think most mmo players want to get everything without playing the game. pretty sure its a very small minority of players than want the dungeon title but dont want to do any dungeons.

Sure, but they might want dungeons they themselves will be able to run. Remember, for a large part of population dungeons, even the really easy ones, are still hard. Forumites, when compared to the rest of the population, are generally exceptionally skilled and esperienced – you shouldn’t assume everyone is around your skill level, or even around you skill potential. There are many players that will never come close, no matter how hard they will try. What you might consider a moderate level of difficulty, that should be cleared by anyone with a little effort, is most likely prohibitively hard to many, many players.

I went into TA this week with a party of five. We didn’t get past the wurms in the beginning after three tries. Two people left the party and with those people replaced, we beat the wurms in no time flat.

Those two people, one of whom was new, one has been playing since launch. Sure eventually they might get it, but everyone has a different discouragement threshold.

Also if dungeons could be soloed, I’m convinced a lot more people would do it. I think it’s looking bad in front of others that prevents many from trying.

Except for specific mechanics in the dungeons which typically consist of standing in the right place or picking up a bunch of stuff, they can be soloed. Nothing about the difficulty blocks soloing, only mechanics. A single good player can carry a full team of meh players typically.

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Posted by: Devata.6589

Devata.6589

FOTM does not have general good loot – nobody plays FOTM for the loot or farms it. People do it for the skins and the skin drop rates are abysmal.

Tokens would work – one man’s grind is another man’s decent progression. And trust me – RNG can be a huge grind too – just that with a token system you can have a point where the grind will eventually end even if you’re unlucky but with a RNG system the grind keeps going on forever if you’re unlucky.

“RNG can be a huge grind too – just that with a token system you can have a point where the grind will eventually end even if you’re unlucky but with a RNG system the grind keeps going on forever if you’re unlucky. "

This is exactly what I mean.. when I say people see RNG as thig big angry thing.

Yes tokens give you a more direct number to go by, but in the end it should not matter much, just for the sake of argument, let’s say you need 6 tokens, every run requires one token. That is similar (close to) a 1 in 6 drop-rate.

Now because people have started seeing RNG as this big bad thing they almost don’t want to / can’t think clearly anymore. When you say.. just as with the tokens where you are working towards your 6 runs, so do you with the 1 in 6 drop-rate. It’s not a guarantee but it still is a guide, every time you do a run you get closer towards it. Then the arguments becomes.. no, the possibility stays 1 in 6 so you are not getting closer, it’s completely random and this is mathematically right, and wrong at the same time. Previous round do not increase your chance of getting anything but not getting it in 5 rounds is mathematically still smaller then not getting it in 6 rounds. And because of the way people have started to look at RNG, they don’t seem to be able to see this.

While you can put it very simple.. Let’s say you may throw a dice 12 times.. now you must guess if the number 1 drops at least one time.. Following the logic people use when seeing RNG as this big angry thing… you should say “no” because the possibility is only 1 / 6 and the next try is still 1/6 and again. But everybody knows the smart thing is to say yes.

This only start to break down when numbers are huge but you have a limited number of tries. So a machine pics a number between 1 and a million, and you may pick 100 numbers.. Then RNG really is that big angry thing.

With dungeon drops it works in a similar way. Requiring 6 tokens could be similar to making a drop-rate of about 1 in 6. In one dungeon it may drop sooner, in another it might drop later but on average it’s 1 in 6. Unlucky in the general sense does not exist here (unless Anet codes it that way).

So in effort of achieving it, it’s similar, but there is a big advantage here that RNG has over a currency-system.

With RNG every run there is the rush of ‘will it drop’ this time. I mean.. you could be ‘lucky’ and it drops the first run, or you could be ‘unlucky’ and it drops the 12th run. One dungeon you will be ‘lucky’ the other you will be ‘unlucky’.. But this always creates that rush of ‘Will it drop this time’. Back to the token system, it’s completely this number you see going up slowly until you reach run 6 where you get the last token, reward wise there is way less of a rush. It’s a more boring system.

Not saying that tokens are bad, but imho they should be a side thing to earn something that is not supposed to be the main goal people go for, but just a nice extra, so even if they feel ‘unlucky’ and did not get the thing they wanted, at least they got a token for this additional item.. also if they did get lucky, they also got half way with the token so might want to come back later to get those last few tokens because they are half-way anyway.

“FOTM does not have general good loot – nobody plays FOTM for the loot or farms it. People do it for the skins and the skin drop rates are abysmal. "
Well there is no need for it, clearly you can still code it wrong.. But they where going to fix that with HoT right?

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Posted by: phys.7689

phys.7689

i dont think most mmo players want to get everything without playing the game. pretty sure its a very small minority of players than want the dungeon title but dont want to do any dungeons.

Sure, but they might want dungeons they themselves will be able to run. Remember, for a large part of population dungeons, even the really easy ones, are still hard. Forumites, when compared to the rest of the population, are generally exceptionally skilled and esperienced – you shouldn’t assume everyone is around your skill level, or even around you skill potential. There are many players that will never come close, no matter how hard they will try. What you might consider a moderate level of difficulty, that should be cleared by anyone with a little effort, is most likely prohibitively hard to many, many players.

I went into TA this week with a party of five. We didn’t get past the wurms in the beginning after three tries. Two people left the party and with those people replaced, we beat the wurms in no time flat.

Those two people, one of whom was new, one has been playing since launch. Sure eventually they might get it, but everyone has a different discouragement threshold.

Also if dungeons could be soloed, I’m convinced a lot more people would do it. I think it’s looking bad in front of others that prevents many from trying.

its ok for people to quit one aspect of a game. This game is supposed to be virtual world, as long as you feel fullfilled and enjoy somethings, its doing its job.
I didnt open the chest at the griffonrook run. Did i quit the whole game? I just said ehh, im not willing to do what it takes to get that thing, and moved on to something else. Most people are like this. As long as the things they do like feel rewarding and interesting, they are fine.

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Posted by: Devata.6589

Devata.6589

What this game really needed, from the beginning, was stuff for casual people to collect LABELLED as such, and then you could put in those ultra hard rewards. But the game didn’t label that stuff. In Rift there were sparkles that anyone could get and anyone could collect. This game needs something like that to keep more casual people playing, as well as harder rewards for people who want more challenge.

But it doesn’t have that. It’s just rewards. Not easier and harder. There’s very few sets “everyone” can get, and that’s missing. Because that’s missing no one is going to be satisfied.

So the trick becomes kittening off the smallest group of people you can.

Funny how far apart we are.. I would say the labels should in some cases not be there at all of just less visible.. You know like being able to see, or now even preview all mini’s. Fine that there is a ‘label’ for collecting 10 mini’s (there already was from the beginning) but if you ask me you should not have given the ability to see all the mini’s (not even the icons) because this takes away from the hunt and discovering a new mini (maybe when seeing somebody with them).

So imho you should not make all possible collections to visible (label them), but make them less visible.

“as well as harder rewards for people who want more challenge.”
Good to see you changed your mind about this.

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Posted by: Vayne.8563

Vayne.8563

i dont think most mmo players want to get everything without playing the game. pretty sure its a very small minority of players than want the dungeon title but dont want to do any dungeons.

Sure, but they might want dungeons they themselves will be able to run. Remember, for a large part of population dungeons, even the really easy ones, are still hard. Forumites, when compared to the rest of the population, are generally exceptionally skilled and esperienced – you shouldn’t assume everyone is around your skill level, or even around you skill potential. There are many players that will never come close, no matter how hard they will try. What you might consider a moderate level of difficulty, that should be cleared by anyone with a little effort, is most likely prohibitively hard to many, many players.

I went into TA this week with a party of five. We didn’t get past the wurms in the beginning after three tries. Two people left the party and with those people replaced, we beat the wurms in no time flat.

Those two people, one of whom was new, one has been playing since launch. Sure eventually they might get it, but everyone has a different discouragement threshold.

Also if dungeons could be soloed, I’m convinced a lot more people would do it. I think it’s looking bad in front of others that prevents many from trying.

its ok for people to quit one aspect of a game. This game is supposed to be virtual world, as long as you feel fullfilled and enjoy somethings, its doing its job.
I didnt open the chest at the griffonrook run. Did i quit the whole game? I just said ehh, im not willing to do what it takes to get that thing, and moved on to something else. Most people are like this. As long as the things they do like feel rewarding and interesting, they are fine.

You may be right. Again it’s a question of balance. If a couple of things are out of your grasp, that’s one thing, but the same non-competitive people who don’t run dungeons, may also not PvP or WvW for exactly the same reason. And those people will look at the game as what can I do and what can’t I do. And again the question is how many of these people are there?

If there’s not that many, it doesn’t matter.

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Posted by: maddoctor.2738

maddoctor.2738

Yes, I agree most people who frequent these forums know you can buy runs. But I know quite a few people who walked into a dungeon solo, got killed at the first encounter and never went near one again.

And my point still stand. If they DID want the title they would have it. Which means they would take the time and put the effort to understand how everything works. That they gave up after the first encounters and didn’t bother to look for more information is clear that they don’t want that title, nor the rewards that come from dungeons.

We’re never going to agree on this. You seem to think that everyone has to think the way you do and I think some people think differently. They can want the title and really truly not believe they have any chance at all to get it. That’s a fact, because I know people like that. In spite of the fact that I assure them they can get it.

It doesn’t matter if you’re right. It only matters what people think/feel. I believe there are enough people that feel left out of that type of content, and no amount of talking on your part or mine will change them.

Not everyone surely. My way of thinking is how a “gamer” would think. How someone playing a single player video game and gets stuck will think, how anyone who ever invested time/effort in a video game would think. You find challenges, you overcome them, it’s nothing different in an MMORPG.

But I guess there are a lot of people who only play facebook games and chat with friends and family, aside from playing MMORPGs. They make a large percentage of the population of MMORPGs and maybe that’s why the challenge rating of MMORPGs is dropping rapidly over the years.

I guess those people if presented with a challenging situation in a single player game would quit instead of searching for ways to overcome it. But even single player games have some well hidden extra rewards for those willing to find them, even single player games have that extra item or extra boss fight for the more interested players. Usually not as part of the main story. Or in some cases they add a lot more challenging encounters in DLC packages, as is the case for almost all Bioware games for example.

Exclusive rewards for hard content isn’t something done in MMORPGs only, it’s been done on all genres since the dawn of gaming but for some reason it’s the MMORPG crowd that thinks they should get the same rewards in some easier way.

tl;dr I simply talk about gamers. I can’t imagine anyone calling himself/herself a gamer not trying their best in the game they play. It’s part of being one and it can be applied to all genres, not just MMORPGs

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Posted by: maddoctor.2738

maddoctor.2738

i dont think most mmo players want to get everything without playing the game. pretty sure its a very small minority of players than want the dungeon title but dont want to do any dungeons.

Sure, but they might want dungeons they themselves will be able to run. Remember, for a large part of population dungeons, even the really easy ones, are still hard. Forumites, when compared to the rest of the population, are generally exceptionally skilled and esperienced – you shouldn’t assume everyone is around your skill level, or even around you skill potential. There are many players that will never come close, no matter how hard they will try. What you might consider a moderate level of difficulty, that should be cleared by anyone with a little effort, is most likely prohibitively hard to many, many players.

I went into TA this week with a party of five. We didn’t get past the wurms in the beginning after three tries. Two people left the party and with those people replaced, we beat the wurms in no time flat.

Those two people, one of whom was new, one has been playing since launch. Sure eventually they might get it, but everyone has a different discouragement threshold.

Also if dungeons could be soloed, I’m convinced a lot more people would do it. I think it’s looking bad in front of others that prevents many from trying.

its ok for people to quit one aspect of a game. This game is supposed to be virtual world, as long as you feel fullfilled and enjoy somethings, its doing its job.
I didnt open the chest at the griffonrook run. Did i quit the whole game? I just said ehh, im not willing to do what it takes to get that thing, and moved on to something else. Most people are like this. As long as the things they do like feel rewarding and interesting, they are fine.

You may be right. Again it’s a question of balance. If a couple of things are out of your grasp, that’s one thing, but the same non-competitive people who don’t run dungeons, may also not PvP or WvW for exactly the same reason. And those people will look at the game as what can I do and what can’t I do. And again the question is how many of these people are there?

If there’s not that many, it doesn’t matter.

If everything is acquirable by anyone and presents zero challenge then that would alienate the other kind of player, those who want something other than pressing 111111 on huge bosses. You send those types of players away by making the game too easy.

On the other hand, if you add content for all challenge levels then that’s not the case anymore since everyone has something to do.

Having more options for everyone, even if some are unreachable by a part of the playerbase is better than alienating the other part of the playerbase.

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Posted by: Devata.6589

Devata.6589

+1 to the creator of the thread.
He said exactly what i think and what i want. i dont want this game that i love transform into a frustrating game that only can be played with 150 trained people at the same time or staying on X ip for 2 hours, etc etc. I want a casual game, where i can enjoy and play at its full with just 1-2 hours per day, like GW2 has always been.

the author isnt talking about the overall way the game is played. The author only cares about the reward balance between different types of content.

also what you are refering to is not about challenge, its about barrier to entry.

A sport wouldnt be considered challenging just because you have to wait on line for 2 days with 40 of your friends.

I remind you Tripple wurm is considered challenging content in GW2. And the dificulty it has nowadays is just the barrier to entry: choosing an ip, and put in there all the “challenge lovers”…

Challenging content, in reality, in GW2, not in our heads, is just new mechanics (that will not be new for more than a few days), long content, or both.

This really depends on the design and it reminds me of a post from Chris Whiteside:
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/cdi/CDI-Guilds-Raiding/page/31#post4541113

Where he says the following about how to design a content (or a raid in this case) according to him:
1: Knowledge>
2: Skill>
3: Raid Group Setup

What imho is a huge mistake.
It should be,
1: Skill>
2: Raid Group Setup >
3: Knowladge

What I did try to explain a little later:
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/cdi/CDI-Guilds-Raiding/page/31#post4541188

When you apply the mechanic Chris suggest here, you are right.. The ‘hard’ content will become a ‘trick’. Once they learned how to beat it, it becomes easy.

But that does not have to be the case, you can design it in ways so that content does stay a challenge, much like with PvP games. In fact you could mix it in, let two groups compete (not fight) with each other in some race.. This keeps it interesting and challenging. Better AI helps, as well as good use of randomness.

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Posted by: phys.7689

phys.7689

i dont think most mmo players want to get everything without playing the game. pretty sure its a very small minority of players than want the dungeon title but dont want to do any dungeons.

Sure, but they might want dungeons they themselves will be able to run. Remember, for a large part of population dungeons, even the really easy ones, are still hard. Forumites, when compared to the rest of the population, are generally exceptionally skilled and esperienced – you shouldn’t assume everyone is around your skill level, or even around you skill potential. There are many players that will never come close, no matter how hard they will try. What you might consider a moderate level of difficulty, that should be cleared by anyone with a little effort, is most likely prohibitively hard to many, many players.

I went into TA this week with a party of five. We didn’t get past the wurms in the beginning after three tries. Two people left the party and with those people replaced, we beat the wurms in no time flat.

Those two people, one of whom was new, one has been playing since launch. Sure eventually they might get it, but everyone has a different discouragement threshold.

Also if dungeons could be soloed, I’m convinced a lot more people would do it. I think it’s looking bad in front of others that prevents many from trying.

its ok for people to quit one aspect of a game. This game is supposed to be virtual world, as long as you feel fullfilled and enjoy somethings, its doing its job.
I didnt open the chest at the griffonrook run. Did i quit the whole game? I just said ehh, im not willing to do what it takes to get that thing, and moved on to something else. Most people are like this. As long as the things they do like feel rewarding and interesting, they are fine.

You may be right. Again it’s a question of balance. If a couple of things are out of your grasp, that’s one thing, but the same non-competitive people who don’t run dungeons, may also not PvP or WvW for exactly the same reason. And those people will look at the game as what can I do and what can’t I do. And again the question is how many of these people are there?

If there’s not that many, it doesn’t matter.

the game already has, and will continue to have a ton of rewards for those types of play. All karma armors, all crafted items, the design of ascended gear, the large majority of achievements. currently the most effecient gold/material farms.

hot as promoted has mastery system. elite spec unlocks, more materials for adventures/map completes.
Its never been a question of all rewards/development getting behind hard content, this op is essentially saying nothing should be given for hard content.
mathematically, they said something that takes 5 times as long should reward .5 times more.
thats just ridiculous math.

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Posted by: Draknar.5748

Draknar.5748

As for this mentality creeping into the real world, you have it exactly backwards… that mentality has existed since the dawn of man.

You got me there, this mentality certainly existed before video games, but it definitely did not exist since the dawn of man. Humans did not start out lazy and entitled.

As far as elitists versus casuals. The problem isn’t that elitists are getting the end rewards and casuals are not. The problem is that a select one or two items will potentially be exclusive to “elitists” (higher skilled players), while the vast, vast majority are attainable by everyone, and for some reason this gets the “casuals’” (normal folk) knickers in a wad.

If casuals can’t have literally every item in the game, then apparently they would quit in droves? I highly doubt it.

They way you and others make it seem is as if all of the best items in the game will only be accessible to top tier PvPers, when right now we’re talking about maybe one item.

I won’t stop because I can’t stop.

It’s a medical condition, they say its terminal….

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Posted by: phys.7689

phys.7689

+1 to the creator of the thread.
He said exactly what i think and what i want. i dont want this game that i love transform into a frustrating game that only can be played with 150 trained people at the same time or staying on X ip for 2 hours, etc etc. I want a casual game, where i can enjoy and play at its full with just 1-2 hours per day, like GW2 has always been.

the author isnt talking about the overall way the game is played. The author only cares about the reward balance between different types of content.

also what you are refering to is not about challenge, its about barrier to entry.

A sport wouldnt be considered challenging just because you have to wait on line for 2 days with 40 of your friends.

I remind you Tripple wurm is considered challenging content in GW2. And the dificulty it has nowadays is just the barrier to entry: choosing an ip, and put in there all the “challenge lovers”…

Challenging content, in reality, in GW2, not in our heads, is just new mechanics (that will not be new for more than a few days), long content, or both.

This really depends on the design and it reminds me of a post from Chris Whiteside:
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/cdi/CDI-Guilds-Raiding/page/31#post4541113

Where he says the following about how to design a content (or a raid in this case) according to him:
1: Knowledge>
2: Skill>
3: Raid Group Setup

What imho is a huge mistake.
It should be,
1: Skill>
2: Raid Group Setup >
3: Knowladge

What I did try to explain a little later:
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/cdi/CDI-Guilds-Raiding/page/31#post4541188

When you apply the mechanic Chris suggest here, you are right.. The ‘hard’ content will become a ‘trick’. Once they learned how to beat it, it becomes easy.

But that does not have to be the case, you can design it in ways so that content does stay a challenge, much like with PvP games. In fact you could mix it in, let two groups compete (not fight) with each other in some race.. This keeps it interesting and challenging. Better AI helps, as well as good use of randomness.

raid group setup shouldnt even be a thing.

putting in order makes it work wrong.
knowlegde should be the first gate. You have to figure out whats going on and deal with it. but that doesnt mean its the most difficult aspect, merely that you have to understand the area before you master it.

skill should be ever present, but you shouldnt need the greatest skill to get the base level of completion.

team work should be always a part of it, working well with your teams strengths and weaknesses should be part of the core.

great skill should give you better chances at rewards, or greater progress towards rewards.

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Posted by: Fox.3469

Fox.3469

I went into TA this week with a party of five. We didn’t get past the wurms in the beginning after three tries. Two people left the party and with those people replaced, we beat the wurms in no time flat.

Those two people, one of whom was new, one has been playing since launch. Sure eventually they might get it, but everyone has a different discouragement threshold.

Also if dungeons could be soloed, I’m convinced a lot more people would do it. I think it’s looking bad in front of others that prevents many from trying.

Of course more people would do it if it could be solo’d some people just don’t like instanced group content. Does that mean we have to remove dungeons? No.

Here’s the thing, most people struggling with dungeon master aren’t struggling with starting it. They are struggling with the harder paths, mostly because noone runs these harder paths, and because they are new to it they are scared to make a group themselves. If there is incentive for experienced players to run certain content, the content itself gets easier over time, due to most people being experienced. I’ve run several Arah path 4 runs in the last few months, most for 1 or 2 guildies each. When i then list the group in dungeon finder, it fills up in seconds. And people get really excited and proud when we finish it. Arah path 4 groups are so rare. Sure allot of people are selling it, but most people i’ve run this path with don’t want to buy a run, they want to do it themselves.

Offering good rewards for difficult content does not shut people out, in fact it enables more people to actually do the content, because since it’s on farm, it will decrease in difficulty as players get better and know what to do. If a player however sais “never doing this again” after completing the content, due to not being rewarded doing it over, then you actually loose experience and the content will stay unreachable for most casuals, as we see now with Arah path 4, wich people basicly only sell runs for to make their effort worthwile. And that is not what i want for this new content. If you’d rather sell spots then get the rewards yourself, that is bad game design.

And here’s the choice. Do you want to be able to get absolutely every reward in the game, or do you want to be able to participate in as much content as possible. For me it’s the second.
If the hardcore content is really like raid-style difficulty, or hardmodes in GW1, then i may not be able to complete it at first, depending on the time i’ll be able to put in and how hard it is initially. But, and this is important, if there are good rewards in there, i know people will get better and i’ll eventually be able to just learn it by just joining a group for it. If there aren’t any good rewards, this will be another Arah path 4, and i do believe noone wants that.

If you are looking for a cozy mature Dutch guild (EU) let me know.

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Posted by: Devata.6589

Devata.6589

+1 to the creator of the thread.
He said exactly what i think and what i want. i dont want this game that i love transform into a frustrating game that only can be played with 150 trained people at the same time or staying on X ip for 2 hours, etc etc. I want a casual game, where i can enjoy and play at its full with just 1-2 hours per day, like GW2 has always been.

the author isnt talking about the overall way the game is played. The author only cares about the reward balance between different types of content.

also what you are refering to is not about challenge, its about barrier to entry.

A sport wouldnt be considered challenging just because you have to wait on line for 2 days with 40 of your friends.

I remind you Tripple wurm is considered challenging content in GW2. And the dificulty it has nowadays is just the barrier to entry: choosing an ip, and put in there all the “challenge lovers”…

Challenging content, in reality, in GW2, not in our heads, is just new mechanics (that will not be new for more than a few days), long content, or both.

This really depends on the design and it reminds me of a post from Chris Whiteside:
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/cdi/CDI-Guilds-Raiding/page/31#post4541113

Where he says the following about how to design a content (or a raid in this case) according to him:
1: Knowledge>
2: Skill>
3: Raid Group Setup

What imho is a huge mistake.
It should be,
1: Skill>
2: Raid Group Setup >
3: Knowladge

What I did try to explain a little later:
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/cdi/CDI-Guilds-Raiding/page/31#post4541188

When you apply the mechanic Chris suggest here, you are right.. The ‘hard’ content will become a ‘trick’. Once they learned how to beat it, it becomes easy.

But that does not have to be the case, you can design it in ways so that content does stay a challenge, much like with PvP games. In fact you could mix it in, let two groups compete (not fight) with each other in some race.. This keeps it interesting and challenging. Better AI helps, as well as good use of randomness.

raid group setup shouldnt even be a thing.

putting in order makes it work wrong.
knowlegde should be the first gate. You have to figure out whats going on and deal with it. but that doesnt mean its the most difficult aspect, merely that you have to understand the area before you master it.

skill should be ever present, but you shouldnt need the greatest skill to get the base level of completion.

team work should be always a part of it, working well with your teams strengths and weaknesses should be part of the core.

great skill should give you better chances at rewards, or greater progress towards rewards.

The > does not stands for “comes first” but “is more important then”.

When knowledge is most important then Silicato is right.. challenging content does not stay challenging for very long.. just as long until people figured it out.

Group setup helps to also make people really feel / be useful, they all have a role to complete, and if they fail at their goal, the group fails at their goal. Something a lot of people miss in GW2.

Then lastly knowledge, having a fun mechanic in a dungeon you have to figure out first is good, but that only lasts for so long.

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Posted by: Conski Deshan.2057

Conski Deshan.2057

I went into TA this week with a party of five. We didn’t get past the wurms in the beginning after three tries. Two people left the party and with those people replaced, we beat the wurms in no time flat.

Those two people, one of whom was new, one has been playing since launch. Sure eventually they might get it, but everyone has a different discouragement threshold.

Also if dungeons could be soloed, I’m convinced a lot more people would do it. I think it’s looking bad in front of others that prevents many from trying.

It’s important for them to fail though, it clues them in that they’re doing something wrong. You have to be aware that you are preforming poorly and failure is the quickest way to indicate that improvement is needed.
Discouragement is temporary though, I can’t even count the amount of times I’ve bashed my head against a hard boss to the point of frustration, only to come back a few weeks later fresh or improved and succeed it on the first try.

Group content is part of an MMO though making everything soloable would have an overall negative impact I feel.

raid group setup shouldnt even be a thing.

putting in order makes it work wrong.
knowlegde should be the first gate. You have to figure out whats going on and deal with it. but that doesnt mean its the most difficult aspect, merely that you have to understand the area before you master it.

skill should be ever present, but you shouldnt need the greatest skill to get the base level of completion.

team work should be always a part of it, working well with your teams strengths and weaknesses should be part of the core.

great skill should give you better chances at rewards, or greater progress towards rewards.

While raid setup shouldn’t be the most important thing it should really be a thing, not super strict like you must have 2guards 2 war, 2 eles a thief and a ranger , but some basic composition should be expected, you should bring a long range class, a class that provides stealth , something with a lot of knockbacks etc. If a full set of say 8 warriors can just blow through it , it indicates that the games mechanics are not being fully utilized.

Skill should be the most important thing, bear in mind this is meant to be a piece of content that is the pinnacle of difficulty , success is not guaranteed, likely or for some groups even possible. They have 95% of the game that they can complete easily a barrier on 5% won’t kill them.

I’d put knowledge second, a skilled player can overcome a surprise ambush that they didn’t have knowledge of, will recognize through experience that there is a trap ahead or what the mechanic for a fight is as the fight is occurring and most importantly be capable of dodging/surviving it. Knowledge is important but shouldn’t be the separating factor, because that leads to the content being on farm mode once that knowledge is common.

[RoF] and [BL] guild leader
11x level 80’s 80+ Titles 2600+ skins , still a long way to go.

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Posted by: Fox.3469

Fox.3469

If a full set of say 8 warriors can just blow through it , it indicates that the games mechanics are not being fully utilized.

I have to say i strongly disagree with this. If a full set of berserker warriors, all with the same weapons can blast trough it, then yes. However if you have allot of different specs and playstyles of the warrior in your group. Then 8 warriors should be just fine.

You have to have different roles, classes are flavour, but the role they fill should be important.

If you are looking for a cozy mature Dutch guild (EU) let me know.

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Posted by: Conski Deshan.2057

Conski Deshan.2057

If a full set of say 8 warriors can just blow through it , it indicates that the games mechanics are not being fully utilized.

I have to say i strongly disagree with this. If a full set of berserker warriors, all with the same weapons can blast trough it, then yes. However if you have allot of different specs and playstyles of the warrior in your group. Then 8 warriors should be just fine.

You have to have different roles, classes are flavour, but the role they fill should be important.

I would consider classes to be more than flavor.
I said mechanically, and what I mean by that is, there may be a portion of the fight that requires reflects (like arah but say damageable by normal means), Water fields may be required for another section, invisibility for a section where you have to stealth through and agro results in insta-kill, A crowd control fight where you have to prevent several enemies from reaching a location through soft CC.

Even 8 different spec’d warriors would feel too low diversity wise.

[RoF] and [BL] guild leader
11x level 80’s 80+ Titles 2600+ skins , still a long way to go.

Some people don't like hard mode

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Posted by: Fox.3469

Fox.3469

If a full set of say 8 warriors can just blow through it , it indicates that the games mechanics are not being fully utilized.

I have to say i strongly disagree with this. If a full set of berserker warriors, all with the same weapons can blast trough it, then yes. However if you have allot of different specs and playstyles of the warrior in your group. Then 8 warriors should be just fine.

You have to have different roles, classes are flavour, but the role they fill should be important.

I would consider classes to be more than flavor.
I said mechanically, and what I mean by that is, there may be a portion of the fight that requires reflects (like arah but say damageable by normal means), Water fields may be required for another section, invisibility for a section where you have to stealth through and agro results in insta-kill, A crowd control fight where you have to prevent several enemies from reaching a location through soft CC.

Even 8 different spec’d warriors would feel too low diversity wise.

I don’t mean to say it has to be optimal, just possible. If not you just impose certain classes upon the group.

If you are looking for a cozy mature Dutch guild (EU) let me know.

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Posted by: FrizzFreston.5290

FrizzFreston.5290

It’s a matter of thresholds. It’s only a few more. But it’s a few more on top of the ones some players can’t attain already. There are people out there who are really mad that they “can’t” get luminscent armor, because the LS achievements are too hard for them. There’s been more than one post about this.

There’s been more than one post about people who feel the game is moving in a direction that’s harder and harder and while it might be laughable to you, it’s certainly not laughable to them.

But the portion of the people who post on forums are going to be the most dedicated people, because it takes effort outside the game. Most casual players aren’t going to post here and those are going to be the ones most affected.

Players who post on forums aren’t always the most dedicated. Casual players aren’t always the ones who are giving up the easiest.

[quote=5393105;Vayne.8563:][quote]

“It isn’t working!” CL4P-TP
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