Guild Wars 2

I’m going to make this topic because I haven’t seen anyone really talking about it at all. A lot of people are assuming that the specialization will just be a strict upgrade of the profession and from what I’m hearing, this isn’t the case. When you specialize you will lose something in the process. The question is how much will you lose?

From what i understand, they talked about fundamentally changing the way the profession is played and that they’ll be getting a new mechanic. Alright, so right off the bat we can make the assumption that what they mean by this is that our profession mechanic will be given up in the process of the change. But WHAT does that actually mean? The question has been rolling around in my head for a while.

As a necromancer player losing Death shroud would ruin use defensively. But depending on the new skills we get we might not care so much about that lose. It being replaced with other, more reliable defensive skills might be good. But how does that translate to our skills? More then a few skills would have to change in order to adjust for such a drastic loss. Dagger auto, staff auto, scepter 3, axe 2, warhorn 2, focus 1, signet of undeath, and all of the spectral skills as well as a tone of traits would have to be removed or completely changed to adjust for the potential loss of life force. Now another direction that could be taken is just the removal of death shroud and life force is still used but in a fundamentally different way. But it still leaves us with traits that are unusable as the specialization.

What I’m trying to say is that its very possible that we wont just lose one thing when we spec for the specialization. We might have to give up all of a single type of skill that shares a type. The Elementalist might lose attunements and thus glyphs could be dropped. The Mesmer could lose illusions which would mean a massive redesign of most of their skills or just a tone of new skills entirely. While other professions who have little interaction with their mechanic through skills might not change much at all.

Is this possible? Absolutely! Arena net have been know to make extremely drastic changes for the health of their game. What do you guys think? You think that its possible the new specializations could impact us so drastically?

Why don’t we wait until more information is released.

We will be spreading false information if your asumsion is not in the right direction.

If they are going with the new trait line you’ll lose everything from the trait line that’s being replaced.

It also seems likely you’ll lose access to a weapon – and if the trait line that’s rotating out has a strong link to a weapon, that’s the weapon you’ll be losing.

Basically think of your characters as already being specialized – for each thing you gain, you’ll lose the exact same category of thing from what you have now.

That doesn’t mean you’ll lose your overall class mechanic – those tend to reach across multiple lines. But the Guardian specialization might replace 1 -2 of their virtues with different virtues.

I imagine you could sacrifice a trait line, some skills and an ability to use a weapon to get a new trait line, different skills in the place of the old ones and a new weapon to use.

Nike.2631:

That doesn’t mean you’ll lose your overall class mechanic – those tend to reach across multiple lines. But the Guardian specialization might replace 1 -2 of their virtues with different virtues.

Actually I’ve read multiple interviews were they’re quite clear about each profession getting a new profession mechanic. I’m not quite sure what that means but it could mean that Guardian virtues wont be a thing on the new specialization.

I saw a wolf fighting along side the druid in the video. Druid’s still use pets. Changing a class mechanic is not the same as replacing it.

Nike.2631:

I saw a wolf fighting along side the druid in the video. Druid’s still use pets. Changing a class mechanic is not the same as replacing it.

That really doesn’t tell us anything. For all we know the druid could summon their pets to attack something using one move before dismissing them. We can’t be sure.

id guess we lose the class specific traitline and that the unique class mechanic will be heavily altered; say for example what if as a druid we still have our pet but now instead of telling them commands we merge with them in combat and our abilities change.

Speculation:
Druid: You lose the ability to control your character, but instead, your pet will give you command :P (Basically it means you control your pet as your character, and your pet gives your character commands through f1~f4)

Fear the kingdom of animals! Go Human!

Regardless of what’s added/removed in the transition from Ranger to Druid (to use a known example) it’s going to be a lateral move. Think of it as being able to switch to a similar yet uniquely different profession. Really nothing to get worried about.

I hope rangers lose the pets

Sagramor.7395:

Regardless of what’s added/removed in the transition from Ranger to Druid (to use a known example) it’s going to be a lateral move. Think of it as being able to switch to a similar yet uniquely different profession. Really nothing to get worried about.

I’m not worried about it. I was a huge fan of the deck building aspect of the first game. And I feel that GW2 has lost a lot of that charm. With this expansion my interest in builds has shot through the roof. I’m not worried. I’m excited! Making a meaningful choice for my profession and having the potential for much more later down the road is an absolute thrill!

I was more explaining to other people here that the changes that are being implemented are not going to be a strict upgrade in power. You’re going to lose something in the process.

I don’t think any of the 9 starting specializations will completely lose the base class mechanics and get brand new ones, but I do think we will see adjustments to how they work.

For example, I doubt Necros would lose Death Shroud, but different skills on Death Shroud is a possibility. We know Druids don’t lose their pet, so there must be some other dynamic that changes. Guardians could possibly see a change on the actives of their virtues, losing the group benefits, but getting a stronger benefit for yourself.

Necros in particular will likely always have life force in some method or another, simply because so many skills and traits deal with it. Mesmers, similarly, will always have some way to manipulate illusions.

Lily.1935:

Nike.2631:

That doesn’t mean you’ll lose your overall class mechanic – those tend to reach across multiple lines. But the Guardian specialization might replace 1 -2 of their virtues with different virtues.

Actually I’ve read multiple interviews were they’re quite clear about each profession getting a new profession mechanic.

Not each. Some. And currently it’s hard to tell what they meant by this.

If a Trait line gets switched out, I’d guess it would be the last one, as for a lot of classes, like Elementalist, it seems to be the “special” one. That would be one way Specializations would both be a trade-off and reflect Secondary Professions.

It’s hard to say about the F skills. During the reveal, they said that “most importantly” Druid will give Ranger “new profession mechanics” that “fundamentally change the way that Ranger plays”. To a lot of people, that would imply the pet is being replaced, but we’ve seen a pet. On the other hand, that doesn’t mean the pet is the same. It could be made into a more temporary pet. It could just be a fancy animation. It could not be part of Druid at all and was just in the trailer to send the message that this character was a Ranger (I’d say that’s the least likely, but it’s possible).

A lot of people are concerned about only getting one new weapon because we’ve seen Mesmer with “just” a shield. I think it’s likely that other weapons will get affected. Depending on what happens with existing profession mechanics, that could be exactly why. If illusions are replaced, and the Illusions Trait line is replaced, then a lot of weapons will have to be tweaked, but the F skills could stay the same and just shatter something new.

It could be as simple as adding a trait line focusing on the specialization without adding available trait points.
More trait options with less points, will by design, cause the character to ‘lose’ access to traits of the core class .
So instead of 6/0/0/2/6 for example, you might get something like 2/0/0/2/4/6

All speculation – the truth will be revealed soon enough.

Altered profession mechanics don’t have to mean altered profession resources.

Rangers, Necromancers, and Mesmers can’t lose the pets/life force/illusions respectively, as these things are woven deeply throughout the class and would require a class-wide redesign to truly evict. Elementalists don’t even have weapon skills which are independent of their mechanic.

That doesn’t mean that these classes would use these things in the same way.

Druids, for example, might draw upon the power of their companion in the form of an Aspect, as many players have hoped for the pet. Is your pet a wolf? All right then – your wolf does what it does, and your F-skills are replaced with Aspect of the Wolf skills that allow you direct control over some portions of wolfly power. Switching pets allows you to switch your Aspect skills. You trade out direct command over your pet, as well as the pet’s bolsters and active abilities, in exchange for gaining a portion of that animal’s abilities yourself.

Chronomancers (SHUT UP THEY’RE CHRONOMANCERS) still use illusions, but they don’t necessarily shatter them. They could simply do their usual thing, defending/attacking/distracting, while the Chronomancer itself gains new F skills independent of its illusions. Alternately, of course, they could just get more timey-wimey themed shatters, but that seems weak.

Necromancers are getting the greatsword, which is (usually. kitten mesmers >_>) a very physical, in-your-face weapon. A Corpse Knight might well use life force in a much more physical way – rather than using it to astral-project a shadow demon version of their spirit, they might cloak themselves in it and conjure up Death Armor instead, infusing their skills with extra effects and granting them a massive toughness boost, but sacrificing their third health bar and the entirely separate set of cooldowns on the normal Necromancer’s DS skills.

Get creative, fizzolks. The profession resource is almost certainly there to stay, but who says the specialization has to use that resource the same way?

Lily.1935:

I was more explaining to other people here that the changes that are being implemented are not going to be a strict upgrade in power. You’re going to lose something in the process.

I wasn’t even aware that that misconception existed until this thread.

I seriously doubt that any profession will completely lose their profession mechanic. The things are ingrained into almost every aspect of the classes, from weapon skills to utilities to traits. That applies to some professions more than others (Elementalist, for instance, is pretty much 100% built around attunement swapping, where Engineer could probably get by without toolbelt skills to an extent), but it applies to some degree to every single one. Completely changing them would be a massive overhaul to every profession requiring a ton of work, and perhaps more importantly a ton of balancing.

Plus, I just don’t think it would really fit the description they’ve given of specializations, where they say its like a secondary class / sub class. If you entirely change something as huge as the profession mechanic, then its more like a completely new class altogether, not a secondary.

Could they alter the specific functionality of the mechanics? Absolutely. And that would be my guess of what they are going to do. It could be as simple as Necromancer getting a different set of Death Shroud skills for an otherwise identical Death Shroud, or it could be something more drastic like Death Shroud’s “second life bar” being ditched in place of some sort of power boost to your normal weapon skills and defense / healing.

But the base mechanics of each profession, Necromancer gaining and using Life Force, Rangers using pets, Mesmers using illusions, Elementalist attunements… I really don’t forsee them going anywhere.

Sagramor.7395:

Lily.1935:

I was more explaining to other people here that the changes that are being implemented are not going to be a strict upgrade in power. You’re going to lose something in the process.

I wasn’t even aware that that misconception existed until this thread.

there was an earlier thread talking about it. The title was something like “Needs two specializations to make sense” or something like that. There has been other areas were people have been confused.

They alter your base mechanics, the don’t remove them. This means that, for instance, a ranger becoming a druid doesn’t lose his pet, but he probably trades the ability to use his pet’s special ability for a druid special ability based on that pet. It fundamentally alters the way he plays his calss because that button is now a different ability, and it’s casted by the player in stead of the pet.

For instance, a guardian probably won’t lose the basic idea of virtues, but he may trade the ability to cast them for his group for the ability to cast offensive versions on enemies. A warrior may trade his focus skills for shouts. A Thief may trade steal for a deathmark style ability. A mesmer may trade clone shatters for clone absorbs. An engineer may trade toolbelt skills for drones. etc.

In addition, the new elites and utilities gained will probably directly relate to this change, and you’ll probably lose utilities or elites that relate to what you lost, and you may trade access to one weapon for access to another, or experienced altered 1-5 skills on your weapons to reflect the specialization.

As Colin said, it’s a subclass. It will alter the way the class plays at a basic level, but it won’t completely replace it with a new one. GW2 classes are a combination of several core mechanics, and specializations will likely take one of the 3 or 4 unique mechanics of a class and replace them with something else, as well as tweaking weapon types and skills to make the spec feel unique.

PopeUrban.2578:

They alter your base mechanics, the don’t remove them.

http://www.pcgamer.com/guild-wars-2-heart-of-thorns-interview/#page-2

“That’s true with all the specialisations. You actually play the profession differently, not just in skills and traits, but in the core mechanics of those professions. Some of them will change an existing profession, some of them might give them entirely new profession abilities and remove other ones.”

To me, it sounds like they’re leaving open the possibility of removing and changing the class mechanics completely.

For example, one of the most asked for Ranger changes is to permanently stow the pet, with this, they’re leaving the possibility of removing the pet mechanic and replacing it with something else in a specialisation.

McWolfy.5924:

I hope rangers lose the pets

This would be a win in my book. Ranger wouldn’t lose a thing. they would be gaining freedom from the chains that bound them.

I could see an Elementalist having their elemental attunements changed to more abstract “elements” such as Aether and Void. Or, they could replace the weapon skills with more normal ones (or more generic “arcane” ones), and the four elements instead become four “stances” that each give different bonuses in combat. (Fire: +Power/Ferocity, Air: +Control Effects/Precision, Water: +Vitality/Healing Effects, Earth: +Toughness/Condition Damage.) If the bonuses are big enough, it would almost be like switching out a large part of your gear at the push of a button.

OP, think of this, Why would a Ranger becoming a Druid lose the mechanic of being a pet? That’s a huge game changing metric right there. On top of that, consider the builds via gear that people are currently running on their characters. If your speculation about specializations is correct, that means that nearly everyone that specializes has to not only trait again, but also reacquire gear for themselves.

Do you know how long and how much it takes to acquire ascended/legendary gear? Reacquiring them will take an exceptionally long time. In fact, if your assumption is correct, that practically means that everyone would consider specializations as transforming into a completely different profession in general.

With that knowledge, that is not the way to go about improving character progression. In fact, it would be regressive. That is why they’re called specializations.
Your base class is now specialized into a profession that does something unique – something that other classes (and by extensions other specializations) can’t do.

In the end, what a specialization is, is an extension of your current profession. It doesn’t take away from your current experience. It would be foolish to take something away from a class when it’s supposed to be an advancement to your character in general.

If there is some things being taken away, it’s never going to be something that currently defines the class and those things wouldn’t hurt the class anyways.

Delirious.9278:

OP, think of this, Why would a Ranger becoming a Druid lose the mechanic of being a pet? That’s a huge game changing metric right there. On top of that, consider the builds via gear that people are currently running on their characters. If your speculation about specializations is correct, that means that nearly everyone that specializes has to not only trait again, but also reacquire gear for themselves.

In PvE that won’t be a big problem, since the meta for those new specializations will likely also be based on Zerk.

Delirious.9278:

With that knowledge, that is not the way to go about improving character progression. In fact, it would be regressive. That is why they’re called specializations.

Your base class is now specialized into a profession that does something unique – something that other classes (and by extensions other specializations) can’t do.

In the end, what a specialization is, is an extension of your current profession. It doesn’t take away from your current experience. It would be foolish to take something away from a class when it’s supposed to be an advancement to your character in general.

If there is some things being taken away, it’s never going to be something that currently defines the class and those things wouldn’t hurt the class anyways.

I think you are missing how keen ArenaNet is on horizontal progression. Having the option to specialize may represent vertical progression, but the specializations themselves are NOT going to (intentionally) add power to your character judging by weeks/months of discussion with the Studio Design Director. It’s A Long Read but its really crucial to understanding what’s going on here.

Suppose that the new Engineer specialization gains 4 new utility skills – a full set of Signets to work with. At the same time they will also lose 4 utility skills, maybe all of their Turrets. The new specialist plays differently, but it’s not particularly better than the default Engineer when taken as a whole.

Nike.2631:

Delirious.9278:

With that knowledge, that is not the way to go about improving character progression. In fact, it would be regressive. That is why they’re called specializations.

Your base class is now specialized into a profession that does something unique – something that other classes (and by extensions other specializations) can’t do.

In the end, what a specialization is, is an extension of your current profession. It doesn’t take away from your current experience. It would be foolish to take something away from a class when it’s supposed to be an advancement to your character in general.

If there is some things being taken away, it’s never going to be something that currently defines the class and those things wouldn’t hurt the class anyways.

I think you are missing how keen ArenaNet is on horizontal progression. Having the option to specialize may represent vertical progression, but the specializations themselves are NOT going to (intentionally) add power to your character judging by weeks/months of discussion with the Studio Design Director. It’s A Long Read but its really crucial to understanding what’s going on here.

Suppose that the new Engineer specialization gains 4 new utility skills – a full set of Signets to work with. At the same time they will also lose 4 utility skills, maybe all of their Turrets. The new specialist plays differently, but it’s not particularly better than the default Engineer when taken as a whole.

In that way I am thinking that the Necro might loose all their Minions, to gain a more close combat stance.
The Flesh Golem was usually used as a tank/stunner (if he did what he was supposed to), if the Necro goes offense and gains the ability himself (maybe a bone armor, or armor of the dead. If we go by Majories developement, she might be tied to the souls of the dead)

Jaken.6801:

In that way I am thinking that the Necro might loose all their Minions, to gain a more close combat stance.
The Flesh Golem was usually used as a tank/stunner (if he did what he was supposed to), if the Necro goes offense and gains the ability himself (maybe a bone armor, or armor of the dead. If we go by Majories developement, she might be tied to the souls of the dead)

maybe. But its also possible we would lose our spectral skills. It really depends on what direction they take it.

McWolfy.5924:

I hope rangers lose the pets

I second this. Skirmisher specialization replace beast mastery XD [It ain’t gunna happen though]

“The new specialist plays differently, but it’s not particularly better than the default Engineer when taken as a whole in theory.”
Fixed that for you, Nike. 5 copper says its going to be a broken mess in pvp and wvw for a while XD

That ‘broken mess’ is different from any other Tuesday how exactly ?

I’m of the opinion this game’s class team is absolutely glacial — hell geological — in their reaction times. But at least when I see movement it makes sense to me. They will try. That’s better as a starting point than waiting another 3 years to finally add some weapons to the existing professions.

Jaken.6801:

In that way I am thinking that the Necro might loose all their Minions, to gain a more close combat stance.
The Flesh Golem was usually used as a tank/stunner (if he did what he was supposed to), if the Necro goes offense and gains the ability himself (maybe a bone armor, or armor of the dead. If we go by Majories developement, she might be tied to the souls of the dead)

Given how many minions Marjory has used in the Living Story thus far, I’m inclined to believe those are still available for the specialized Necro. I think we’re more likely to lose corruptions or spectrals as a utility type.

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Jaken.6801:

In that way I am thinking that the Necro might loose all their Minions, to gain a more close combat stance.
The Flesh Golem was usually used as a tank/stunner (if he did what he was supposed to), if the Necro goes offense and gains the ability himself (maybe a bone armor, or armor of the dead. If we go by Majories developement, she might be tied to the souls of the dead)

Given how many minions Marjory has used in the Living Story thus far, I’m inclined to believe those are still available for the specialized Necro. I think we’re more likely to lose corruptions or spectrals as a utility type.

losing corruptions would SUCK! But it could be worth it. Don’t know. Would rather lose spectral skills.

McWolfy.5924:

I hope rangers lose the pets

I hope Necro lose shroud.

From the looks of the trailer, I would guess that Engineers get drones that follow them. That, or it could be an elite.

Thieves will get something that replaces steal. Initiative is too deeply ingrained in their weapon skills to be removed.

In the case of Mesmers, I bet that either we’ll either get different shatters, or be able to do something else with our clones. Literally every weapon can summon illusions, so those aren’t going anywhere.

Elementalists are tricky. It’s entirely possible that they won’t do anything to attunements. Messing with those would basically break the class.

stayBlind.7849:

McWolfy.5924:

I hope rangers lose the pets

I hope Necro lose shroud.

I hope Mesmer loses Shatter

This is the question that bugged me as well. I don’t expect big changes to the profession mechanics. And I’m not so sure they are going to remove an entire skill category (i.e. Traps, or Cantrips) as these traits are often spread across multiple traitlines.
You can’t take out just 1 traitline for Elementalist and and not be left with a bunch of traits that still affect Cantrips f.e.

And im also not sold on the idea that you lose access to a weapon, I haven’t seen arenanet hint at that so far and it would leave certain professions who are already pretty lacking in choice (f.e. Engineer) in an equally kittenty situation. It would also be even harder to balance with traits as weapon related traits are also often spread around.

Terrahero.9358:

This is the question that bugged me as well. I don’t expect big changes to the profession mechanics. And I’m not so sure they are going to remove an entire skill category (i.e. Traps, or Cantrips) as these traits are often spread across multiple traitlines.
You can’t take out just 1 traitline for Elementalist and and not be left with a bunch of traits that still affect Cantrips f.e.

And im also not sold on the idea that you lose access to a weapon, I haven’t seen arenanet hint at that so far and it would leave certain professions who are already pretty lacking in choice (f.e. Engineer) in an equally kittenty situation. It would also be even harder to balance with traits as weapon related traits are also often spread around.

We don’t know yet. They did say the specialization would “Fundamentally change the way you play your profession” and I’ve heard multiple times they’ll each have a new mechanic. Its possible that we don’t lose a weapon but each base profession will actually gain a weapon that the specialization can’t use. Which could be interesting.

stayBlind.7849:

McWolfy.5924:

I hope rangers lose the pets

I hope Necro lose shroud.

Replace death shroud with orders… Mmm. yeah.

I think many here have grossly overestimated how much and how often class mechanics are going to be altered by Specializations. But, we’ll just have to wait and see.

Electro.4173:

Plus, I just don’t think it would really fit the description they’ve given of specializations, where they say its like a secondary class / sub class. If you entirely change something as huge as the profession mechanic, then its more like a completely new class altogether, not a secondary.

Actually, like I said, the first thing they said was that “most importantly” Druid will give Ranger “new profession mechanics” that “fundamentally change the way that Ranger plays”.

But the base mechanics of each profession, Necromancer gaining and using Life Force, Rangers using pets, Mesmers using illusions, Elementalist attunements… I really don’t forsee them going anywhere.

The thing is, many classes seem to have two different mechanics. Mesmers have Illusions and Shatter. Thieves have Steal and Initiative. One of these could easily be changed without touching the other, and it may not even have to be the equivalent between classes.

In the case of Mesmers, I bet that either we’ll either get different shatters, or be able to do something else with our clones. Literally every weapon can summon illusions, so those aren’t going anywhere.

That’s actually the exact reason why I think it’s possible. Mesmers are worried that they’re just getting two new skills since their new weapon appears to be Shield. If Illusions are replaced, then every weapon would at least have some tweaks, so the Specialization wouldn’t just be “Mesmer with two extra abilities.”

With that knowledge, that is not the way to go about improving character progression.

That’s because they’re not progression, at least not in the typical sense. The new progression is the Mastery system. Specializations are a trade-off, a “side-grade”, as it were. They’re like a more drastic version of having a different build. It’s still vague on how much they are a trade-off from the base class (especially compared to potential future Specializations), but they’re not intended as a strict upgrade.

I just want to state that, my speculations might accidentally get someone else’s hopes up, but I’m not hyping myself. Specializations sound cool, but I pretty much only play Mesmer, and while Chronomancer sounds like a neat idea, it doesn’t sound like what I want out of Mesmer anyway, so big or small, I can’t oversell this to myself. What I’m enjoying is the speculation.

I’m going to guess we’ll lose an entire Trait line, and any skills that may be related to it. Different specializations could remove different Trait lines and replace it with something else.

Eg. The first Trait line for Thief is Deadly Arts. If a specialization replaced it, the traits will have to have a different effect. Instead of Mug (which relies on Steal), Steal could have a different effect. Utility skills should also be replaced to reflect the different playstyle. All of the other trait lines should remain unchanged. Obviously you also get a different set of weapon skills from the specialization.