Specializations disaster.
Get over it. The old trait system was godawful, and this is one of the best patches ArenaNet has ever released featurewise.
On the other hand having stat selections tied to trait selections was silly. 1 & 2 could be solved by allowing more versatile gear selections in spvp for mixing and matching.
3 & 4 are a different issue. Personally I too like more options – which is why I liked GW1 skill system and hero system. However compared to old system, the current trait system has it’s upsides too – it should be a lot easier to balance out, and hopefully that will pay off in the future.
riiiight, stripping freedom of choice is called “feature” now.
Stripping freedom of choice isn’t necessarily a bad thing in this case.
Yes, we had the freedom to invest 14 points across 5 trait lines, but usually it was an awful idea to do so and wouldn’t grant you as many wortwhile benefits as traiting just into 3. Not only that, but there were many traits across all professions that provided little to no meaningful investment.
Despite the old trait system giving you more freedom to invest a little bit in every line, to try and be jack of all trades, I didn’t ever find it to be good to do so. Find me a “meta” build in the previous version that invested in all lines and still performed on par with those who invested in only three or even four lines.
The Specialization system allows more build diversity, in my opinion. You can make a lot more worthwhile builds with this new system, builds that suit your playstyle more than what the meta is (or was) and still be successful.
I’m sure whatever the new meta turns in will contain more builds than ever before. I know I’ve been running 3-4 different types of builds on my Guardian, Warrior, Elementalist, and Engineer and they’ve all been doing pretty well. Maybe it’s because everyone else is doing the same thing (creating more “unique” builds and testing), but I’ve been having a ton of fun and on top of that, can see myself running a larger variety of builds in Ranked after the first week of the patch is done and over with.
(Note: I’m not saying there won’t be a meta, but as far as builds go, there should be more “meta builds” with this system than before.)
Kharros 80 Warr | Dead on Revival 80 Necro | Yoxx 80 Guard | Khoton 80 Thief | Thera Majere 80 Ele
I like:
- Unlocks are now much more alt friendly
- Some traits have been combined
- More points
I dislike:
- Opportunity cost of wanting a single trait from an otherwise useless (to me) line is higher than that of a single trait in a line with options in other tiers that fit what I have in mind
- Taking one for the team, which is getting old fast. For those unclear on what I mean, this pertains to auto-select builds for existing lower level characters who auto-spent for an entire spec line I see no value in — all so that people who don’t want to think don’t have to
I see pros and cons for:
- Disallowing partial lines; good because opportunity cost in and of itself is a good thing; bad due to the disparate opportunity cost issue I mentioned earlier
- Not allowing taking a lesser trait in a higher slot; good, opportunity costs are much clearer; bad because fewer builds are possible than would be the case otherwise
It obliterated worthless choices and gave you access to meaningful ones – you have more valid choices, it increased your freedom…
it’s almost midnight, i’m still defending anet, i’ll go back to siding with the gamers and talk about how my poor poor build got mangled.
IBM PC XT 4.77mhz w/turbo oc@ 8mhz 640kb windows 3.1 hayes 56k seagate 20 meg HD mda@720x350 pixels
It obliterated worthless choices and gave you access to meaningful ones – you have more valid choices, it increased your freedom…
You didnt need a different system in order to make better traits.
For ex
Hard to catch used to suck, was a random teleport now its a stun break+100 endurance. It could have been what it is now under any system.
Dont conflate better trait design with the system itself
Meaningful choice has nothing to do with the specialization system
On one hand we lost the ability to spend our points how we wanted, on the other everyone lost this ability so the way I see it you can move on and accept it or quit.
Funny thing is we knew we were gonna get most of these things 4 months ago… and didn’t see nearly enough outrage back then.
“You keep saying ‘its unfair.’
I wonder what your basis for comparison is…”
- Jareth, King of Goblins.
I wonder what your basis for comparison is…”
- Jareth, King of Goblins.
Funny thing is we knew we were gonna get most of these things 4 months ago… and didn’t see nearly enough outrage back then.
On the contrary. I was almost certain long time ago this trait system is just gonna be precoded builds. When you want to go dps, condi or tank/support you don’t really have much choices. Whole trait lines are focused on certain things. No more build diversity. You do not create builds now, you load predefined specs and you play around them. This means you won’t be creating builds around content to look for most optimal/easiest/in_the_middle way to complete the content. You are going to preload your trait line, choose 3 of nine least useless traits and go to succeed.
No more unique builds. With so much streamlining there are no more builds, there are only templates. And we were asking for templates, weren’t we? Sigh…
I am disappointed but I got over it long time ago. I just don’t care. There is enough people enjoying colorful trait lines that anet don’t have to care about income. This is how our civilisation is progressing – pretty pictures > usefulness.
^ this guy gets it.
Funny thing is we knew we were gonna get most of these things 4 months ago… and didn’t see nearly enough outrage back then.
On the contrary. I was almost certain long time ago this trait system is just gonna be precoded builds. When you want to go dps, condi or tank/support you don’t really have much choices. Whole trait lines are focused on certain things. No more build diversity. You do not create builds now, you load predefined specs and you play around them. This means you won’t be creating builds around content to look for most optimal/easiest/in_the_middle way to complete the content. You are going to preload your trait line, choose 3 of nine least useless traits and go to succeed.
No more unique builds. With so much streamlining there are no more builds, there are only templates. And we were asking for templates, weren’t we? Sigh…
I am disappointed but I got over it long time ago. I just don’t care. There is enough people enjoying colorful trait lines that anet don’t have to care about income. This is how our civilisation is progressing – pretty pictures > usefulness.
And how exactly was the previous trait system any different?
If you wanted dps, you had no choice but to use the trait-lines that offered these +300 power or precision.
If you wanted to be tanky, you couldn’t afford not to take the ones that added +300 vitality or toughness.
The fact that stats were linked to the respective trait lines was a factor that severely limited the build diversity and it needed to be gone.
It was very different. Sure, there were some walls, but much more space between them.
For spvp (because pve was broken by zerk/assasin meta) i could for example grab berserker’s amulet, but also grab extra tougness and condi damage from traitlines. Speaking of my ranger going into wildreness survival.
That way i had far more customization for making more “middle ground” builds which i loved.
I also had a build that used a full line stuffed with nothing but adept tier traits (my zombieneer). It worked, and it worked well. Well, now i can’t do that cause they know better.
And how about my condi thief? Before going full acrobatics put extra 3k hp on top of his 10.8k squishiness (amulet was settler). Now that build would be too squishy for it’s own good. extra tougness on amulet will not fix the lack of vitality, all the more with condi damage threats. Gone is the 30% extra boon duration, sweet for shadow trap buffs and thril of the crime buffs, condi damage suffers too, because 30% boost on 650 condi damage from amulet is not better or equal to 300 that trickery line gave me.
Just some examples of how their “we know better then you” bit me in the kitten .
(edited by ZeftheWicked.3076)
Funny thing is we knew we were gonna get most of these things 4 months ago… and didn’t see nearly enough outrage back then.
On the contrary. I was almost certain long time ago this trait system is just gonna be precoded builds. When you want to go dps, condi or tank/support you don’t really have much choices. Whole trait lines are focused on certain things. No more build diversity. You do not create builds now, you load predefined specs and you play around them. This means you won’t be creating builds around content to look for most optimal/easiest/in_the_middle way to complete the content. You are going to preload your trait line, choose 3 of nine least useless traits and go to succeed.
No more unique builds. With so much streamlining there are no more builds, there are only templates. And we were asking for templates, weren’t we? Sigh…
I am disappointed but I got over it long time ago. I just don’t care. There is enough people enjoying colorful trait lines that anet don’t have to care about income. This is how our civilisation is progressing – pretty pictures > usefulness.
And how exactly was the previous trait system any different?
If you wanted dps, you had no choice but to use the trait-lines that offered these +300 power or precision.
If you wanted to be tanky, you couldn’t afford not to take the ones that added +300 vitality or toughness.
The fact that stats were linked to the respective trait lines was a factor that severely limited the build diversity and it needed to be gone.
Lol I didn’t even say a thing about stats connected to trait lines. Re-read and come back later.
I never chose my trait lines because of stats connected to them but about what particular traits offered me – that being said I welcome removing stats from traitlines but it was never an issue for me.
Now stay on topic – how limiting is current trait system. My arguments are posted in my previous post. Enjoy it.
This way is much better, ty and goodnight.
Good job A-net for fixing things that do work…
Personal story, traits – what’s next ?
At least 3 toons are useless and i wont change their builds because i have 2 toons from every class (engi and necro excluded) now thay are just a bloody waste of spot…
DON’T FIX THINGS THAT WORK for god’s sake.
…
Despite the old trait system giving you more freedom to invest a little bit in every line, to try and be jack of all trades, I didn’t ever find it to be good to do so. Find me a “meta” build in the previous version that invested in all lines and still performed on par with those who invested in only three or even four lines.
The Specialization system allows more build diversity, in my opinion. You can make a lot more worthwhile builds with this new system, builds that suit your playstyle more than what the meta is (or was) and still be successful.
…
Elementalist 6, 2, 2, 2, 2 was in the meta until the patch. It provided a lot of percentual dmg-boosts and thus a whole lot of dmg.
While the old system hat a whole ton of crap builds and only a fraction of all possible builds was actually viable, the same situation still persists. Only a fraction of what you can do actually makes sense.
In the old system you could switch out single traits for something else (essentially creating a new build) and thus fine-tune until you were satisfied with the result. In the new system you must choose one out of three traits even if they’re completely useless to you. Fine-tuning is no longer possible.
As soon as the new patch hit, a friend of mine and I created our new elementalist-builds and independently came up with exactly the same build. So much for individualism in the new system. In the old one we always had at least minor differences.
As restrictive as the new system is, I still understand that is was necessary! We can’t have elite-specialisations without limiting the choice to three trait-lines and the game can’t progress class-machanic-wise without them.
(…)
As restrictive as the new system is, I still understand that is was necessary! We can’t have elite-specialisations without limiting the choice to three trait-lines and the game can’t progress class-machanic-wise without them.
That’s not exactly true. It would have been entirely possible to introduce elites without full overhaul of trait system. Simply make elites ‘advanced classes’, and let players pick one active for character. Active elite trait line shows up in addition to base lines, along with the traits specific to that elite.
It’s just that diversity like that is a balancing nightmare. This was already case in GW1 with hundreds of possible skills and almost unlimited number of potential combinations. From player perspective it was fun to experiment, but it frequently resulted in brokenly OP builds (e.g. permasin, imbagon, invincimonk).
Good job A-net for fixing things that do work…
Personal story, traits – what’s next ?
At least 3 toons are useless and i wont change their builds because i have 2 toons from every class (engi and necro excluded) now thay are just a bloody waste of spot…
DON’T FIX THINGS THAT WORK for god’s sake.
Except that traits didn’t work. I know you think they did, but they really didn’t. You may have liked them, but when you look at the number of traits that were pretty much never used, you realize that you liking them doesn’t change the fact that it didn’t work.
Good job A-net for fixing things that do work…
Personal story, traits – what’s next ?
At least 3 toons are useless and i wont change their builds because i have 2 toons from every class (engi and necro excluded) now thay are just a bloody waste of spot…
DON’T FIX THINGS THAT WORK for god’s sake.
Except that traits didn’t work. I know you think they did, but they really didn’t. You may have liked them, but when you look at the number of traits that were pretty much never used, you realize that you liking them doesn’t change the fact that it didn’t work.
SOME traits didn’t work so it would be nice not to manipulate facts.
Merging traits isn’t a bad idea. However we are discussing how builds are being created with current trait system which is limiting and unrewarding.
Why? Arguments are in my previous posts. What I see here is people are debating good things about current trait system – yes, there are some good things after patch. Yet for build creation this patch is a butchery. This is what this thread is about so pleas stay on topic. If you can.
(edited by Many.8419)
Here is how i see OP.
OP : “You broke the meta! Shame on you!”
Rawr?
(edited by Voreo Sabrae.5416)
…
Despite the old trait system giving you more freedom to invest a little bit in every line, to try and be jack of all trades, I didn’t ever find it to be good to do so. Find me a “meta” build in the previous version that invested in all lines and still performed on par with those who invested in only three or even four lines.
The Specialization system allows more build diversity, in my opinion. You can make a lot more worthwhile builds with this new system, builds that suit your playstyle more than what the meta is (or was) and still be successful.
…
Elementalist 6, 2, 2, 2, 2 was in the meta until the patch. It provided a lot of percentual dmg-boosts and thus a whole lot of dmg.
About the 6/2/2/2/2 Elementalist build, the only thing that changed was the removal of Stone Splinters and making Blasting Staff baseline. If Stone Splinters was going to be removed anyway for balance reasons (too many damage modifiers) and the change to Blasting Staff was also coming for balance reasons, then there is no difference between the old and the new build. Only the new build has a lot more traits now, go 1/1/0/1/0 and you get everything the old build had + a lot more.
It’s the same with other “meta” builds, like the Thief D/D S/P SB meta build which got substantial buffs and very few drawbacks. Guardian meta build got a boost too, although now you use Mace instead of Sword for maximum damage in dungeons.
It’s as if with the new system they wanted players to play the meta builds more. Not “killing” the meta builds isn’t a bad thing by itself, but when you see the 3 traits you shouldn’t be able to pick one over the others without any thought because it clearly overshadows the others. Hopefully with less combinations and less traits they can make at least 3 “builds” for each specialization workable, but the only traitline that works like that so far is the Reaper.
Choosing the top, mid or lower three traits for the Reaper offer distinct and different build playstyles, of course you can also mix and max for extra choice and variety. I think ALL specializations, old and new, should work like the Reaper and offer different playstyles if you choose top, mid and bottom traits, with the ability to also mix and max.
@ Voreo Sabrae: Good joke. I’m the guy who prides on devising new non meta builds, because i hate being a meta sheep, and love being a pioneer who invents new stuff.
zombieneer, condi bunker thief, celestial hybrid ranger – any of those sounds meta to you? These are were my builds.
The only thing I really miss is choosing lower tier traits into higher tier trait slots…
Find me a “meta” build in the previous version that invested in all lines and still performed on par with those who invested in only three or even four lines.
6/2/2/2/2 Lava font spammer staff ele.
Actions, not words.
Remember, remember, 15th of November
Remember, remember, 15th of November
The only thing I really miss is choosing lower tier traits into higher tier trait slots…
Exactly this, I would be much happier if they allowed us to this for the game. I think it would makes this more interesting and help build more variety.
Shikamaru X Thief, Warrior, Mesmer, Engi(FT leader)
Highest ranked reached 28 soloq
Isle of Janthir
Highest ranked reached 28 soloq
Isle of Janthir
Well my builds were doing well because of traitline stats, so asides the above that’s another area that killed my freedom in making new, creative builds:/
Good job A-net for fixing things that do work…
Personal story, traits – what’s next ?
At least 3 toons are useless and i wont change their builds because i have 2 toons from every class (engi and necro excluded) now thay are just a bloody waste of spot…
DON’T FIX THINGS THAT WORK for god’s sake.
Except that traits didn’t work. I know you think they did, but they really didn’t. You may have liked them, but when you look at the number of traits that were pretty much never used, you realize that you liking them doesn’t change the fact that it didn’t work.
SOME traits didn’t work so it would be nice not to manipulate facts.
Merging traits isn’t a bad idea. However we are discussing how builds are being created with current trait system which is limiting and unrewarding.
Why? Arguments are in my previous posts. What I see here is people are debating good things about current trait system – yes, there are some good things after patch. Yet for build creation this patch is a butchery. This is what this thread is about so pleas stay on topic. If you can.
I am on topic, though. You say that the current system is butchery and maybe for a small percent of theory crafters that’s true. The problem is a small percentage of theory crafters isn’t this game.
Making the build system more accessible to more people makes sense from a business and playability point of view. I’m playing the same game you are, and frankly I don’t want to spend my entire time looking at build after build trying to find one that’s marginally better. Because that’s not my game. And I don’t think it’s the game of most players.
There are probably more viable options for the non-die hards this way. And you can’t make a game just for the die hards.
The game is changed for reasons. Not randomly. Not baselessly. And if you don’t like it, that’s fair enough. But to say that it’s worse this way, it’s just a matter of opinion. I think more people will be able to get deeper into the game this way than the way it was. Which is just my opinion of course.
Humans are creatures of habit. If something changes general resentment is quite normal. After a couple of weeks/months no one will ever ask about old trait system (which was actually rather bad imo). And yes, Vayne already mentioned it: a lot of traits were never used and underpowered.
‘would have/would’ve been’ —> correct
‘would of been’ —> wrong
‘would of been’ —> wrong
Few of these humans are creatures of freedom and prefer to have more, not less of it.
And yeah in few months i won’t be complaning about it. Cause if this trend keeps up (first trait revamp, NPE, specializations, HoT sales practices) i’ll be on a different game’s forum and for a good reason.
…and there you will complain again. Just stop to complain, accept status quo.
‘would have/would’ve been’ —> correct
‘would of been’ —> wrong
‘would of been’ —> wrong
Few of these humans are creatures of freedom and prefer to have more, not less of it.
And yeah in few months i won’t be complaning about it. Cause if this trend keeps up (first trait revamp, NPE, specializations, HoT sales practices) i’ll be on a different game’s forum and for a good reason.
MMORPGS, unlike single-player games, do not stop in time. They evolve over the years, as new content is added and as old content is polished or streamlined. Any game system is designed with specific purposes, and they do not always achieve those purposes perfectly, so they are improved upon or rethought in a living, evolving game like the mmo genre.
The first trait revamp was a good idea that was poorly executed. It was an attempt to bring one of the best things about GW1, skill capturing, and even the community asked for it. It ended up failing because it clashed with GW2’s design as a whole. GW1 skill capturing was clear, easy to understand and flavorful. Bosses had profession-specific auras, which immediately communicated to players that they had a skill worth capturing for. Those skills were usually related in theme with the boss backstory, and there was also a certain charm in learning skills from epic encounters and using them yourself. Besides, you could obtain normal skills through quests or by buying them for cheap. In contrast, GW2’s “attempt” to do the same resulted in a system full of hidden unlocks, poor UI support, and generic and arbitrary trait location with no flavor and no backstory. Fighting a karka queen would give you the same tier of trait from the same trait line to any profession, for example, regardless of what the trait’s effects were and wether they fit the boss or not. There was no easy access to normal traits, which ruined experimentation and sense of progression, and most of the unlock triggers were random (events) or demanded too much for too little (100% map completion, etc).
Do not compare it with the specialization system, which is a far more successful attempt and, easily, the best version of traits GW2 ever had. Specs are easier to understand and to change, they are very alt friendly, they have a cool layout with flavorful icons, they are thematically more focused (trait lines aren’t as arbitrary) and have clearer synergy between each other, and they are more impactful to your builds. They are no longer restricted by stats, and the system as a whole is much easier to expand (anet can simply add more specs in time, because trait lines aren’t as rigid as before). It can communicate properly with any player now.
Condition balance aside (and some other issues Anet is aware of and are looking to address), this is the best balance patch to date.
I am finding more useful traits and skills to use than I did before, for most professions anyway. There are still some changes to be done, but overall its a good patch. And as to the attribute points being removed from traits. Best. Move. Ever. Now I can focus on picking traits for the traits, and stats for the stats. It also helps Anet to keep certain trait combinations in check so we cannot mix and match traits in an unintended or overpowered way.
Many builds will change. The meta will change. This is not a bad thing. Some things are OP and some UP, but Anet will make small tweaks and fix these over time. If something in particular feels underpowered or overpowered, then post your findings and explanations as to why, but I think you are wasting your time asking them to revert the stats from traits change. It offers a lot more benefit to the game as a whole than it will negatively impact a few players who are unwilling to adapt.
I won’t compare first trait revamp with specialization system. It was far less an abomination.
Basically you all go "it’s sparkly, it’s simpler, it’s better.
It’s also dumber and restrictive. It could’ve been all the above without taking away player choice and freedom.
Missing stats could’ve been handled much better in spvp giving players full freedom even surpassing previous system (no longer tied to traitlines). But no.
Ability to slot lower tier traits into higher tratislots did not have to be taken away. It could work with specs too. But no.
Ability to go partially into one line without limiting amount of lines we can select as long as we got points for it also wouldn’t kill anyone. but no.
“We know better then you”, now shut up, enjoy the sparklies and wait for our next great idea. I can’t effin wait…
simple solution, update gw1 and connect it to gw2
the lore can be you can only get to each area by o.b.e – astral travel or like in gta 5 you eat mushrooms or something…
the new skill / spell system is great for adventuring, the old system is great for pvp
don’t fix them, improve them as they are, where they are.
IBM PC XT 4.77mhz w/turbo oc@ 8mhz 640kb windows 3.1 hayes 56k seagate 20 meg HD mda@720x350 pixels