Guild Wars 2

Not really feeling this aspect of the mastery system. When I unlock a new mastery skill by spending points in it, I want to use it, not grind until I gain enough xp to level to be able to use it.

Maybe it’ll be better when the game is actually out, but this first part many of the events weren’t giving xp and only the wyvern event gave substantial xp.

Devildoc.6721:

Not really feeling this aspect of the mastery system. When I unlock a new mastery skill by spending points in it, I want to use it, not grind until I gain enough xp to level to be able to use it.

Maybe it’ll be better when the game is actually out, but this first part many of the events weren’t giving xp and only the wyvern event gave substantial xp.

It seems only some of the masteries operate like this (i.e. the mushroom) while others give you something instantly with more unlocked on leveling.

I agree that spending a point should always give you something, even if it is minimal. However this also depends on how many points are ultimately available. If you are gaining points and levels every 10 minutes then I can understand the wait. I think it will be hard to say for sure until a full beta is available.

Devildoc.6721:

Not really feeling this aspect of the mastery system. When I unlock a new mastery skill by spending points in it, I want to use it, not grind until I gain enough xp to level to be able to use it.

Maybe it’ll be better when the game is actually out, but this first part many of the events weren’t giving xp and only the wyvern event gave substantial xp.

unfortunately, that grind and “fill up the bar” design is the direction this game has and is going. it’s a way for the devs to extend the life of the small amounts of content being produced.

Like I said it might be better once the full expansion is out and there’s a lot more ways to get xp. This demo provided us with very few ways of acquiring xp so it felt more grindy (I was literally grinding pocket raptors in between wyvern kills for xp because the other events gave no xp)

Still, I do much prefer that when I spend skill points on a new skill, I can slot that skill on my bar and start using it. I like that when I spend a trait point, I immediately see the effect (that is the one good thing about the new trait system, spend 1 trait point and at least get a minor trait effect rather than needing to spend 5).

It wouldn’t be as exciting to spend the skill points to unlock a skill, slot it in your bar, and then have to gain enough xp for it to actually be usable.

Remember Arenanet threw out the old way of unlocking weapon skills, partially because it felt grindy.

It would be to easy if you didn’t have to get a level of xp per mastery point, I mean, you can get a mastery point very easily, flying 100 meters to a shrine thing, or completing a challenge that takes 2 mins, without the xp grind you would have everything unlocked in no time.
I’m fine with the way it is now, although they need to nerf the xp gain from the wyvern kill, getting half a level for a quick kill that u can log out and do again on a diff overflow instantly is just to much.

Reward after effort.

Radical!

I thought the Mastery Points were like a key. They open the door to a path you can follow, and at the end of the path…..Reward!

I suppose they could have you earn the XP first, then unlock all the content that awards Mastery Points, but that seems a bit convoluted, and difficult to manage.

laokoko.7403:

You are comparing a mmorpg to single player game with 30 hours of play time.

Most of us have more than 30 hours of play times in gw2.

So what’s been keeping people here for the last few years?

Really the thing I liked best about this game was that lack of vertical progression, the fact that my characters were more or less always ready to do stuff once I set them up initially. This new system is quite frankly a bunch of crap as far as I’m concerned. They made a bold step in a new direction and now they’re taking the easy rode and falling back into line with the other MMOs by giving us the tried and true time sinks to extend the duration of content… such crap.

Jerus.4350:

laokoko.7403:

You are comparing a mmorpg to single player game with 30 hours of play time.

Most of us have more than 30 hours of play times in gw2.

So what’s been keeping people here for the last few years?

Really the thing I liked best about this game was that lack of vertical progression, the fact that my characters were more or less always ready to do stuff once I set them up initially. This new system is quite frankly a bunch of crap as far as I’m concerned. They made a bold step in a new direction and now they’re taking the easy rode and falling back into line with the other MMOs by giving us the tried and true time sinks to extend the duration of content… such crap.

you’ll probably finish all the mastery in a month anyway.

Vavume.8065:

It would be to easy if you didn’t have to get a level of xp per mastery point, I mean, you can get a mastery point very easily, flying 100 meters to a shrine thing, or completing a challenge that takes 2 mins, without the xp grind you would have everything unlocked in no time.
I’m fine with the way it is now, although they need to nerf the xp gain from the wyvern kill, getting half a level for a quick kill that u can log out and do again on a diff overflow instantly is just to much.

There’s a lot more mastery points needed if you’ll notice the mastery points needed to unlock skills begins to increase, like WvW traits, and some mastery points will be harder to earn. They have a few that are easy to get but did you get all 3 orbs in the demo? Every class but Revenant couldn’t get 2 of them and even Revenant could only get 1 of those 2… that we know of anyway, maybe in the full version there’ll be higher points to glide off of to make the trip or updrafts you can use or something. But for now I could only get the easy orb, and the one from bronze on the vine torching, and the starter one they just give you.

I’m sure it won’t feel like they’re just throwing them at you.

Shiren.9532:

Nike.2631:

Reward after effort.

Radical!

The comparison the devs made was Metroid. In Metroid (at least the ones I played) you find hidden parts of the world (and some not so hidden) where an upgrade is obtained which allows you to go back to past parts (or progress to future parts) by utilising your new upgrade. This is similar to Zelda games, where you find a new weapon or ability and it has a unique mechanic which allows you to progress or traverse obstacles you couldn’t before.

Notice nowhere in there did I say you need to grind out experience or kills with your new abilities before you can use them? The ‘effort’ that precedes the reward is obtaining the upgrade in the first place. In the Stress Test area, some of the Mastery Orbs were decently challenging to acquire. I consider that to be effort, and these are the Orbs in the very first area of the expansion, obviously later ones will be more difficult.

Personally I found the Mastery System to be one of the weaker features of the Stress Test. Before the expansion, and even now after playing it, I am not convinced that grinding exp after unlocking a tier with Mastery Orbs is the system GW2 deserves. It feels like clunky old MMO design, stuck in the past with grind that is completely unrelated to the Masteries you are unlocking.

Ability progression works really well in other games without the extra grind GW2 is currently using. I know we are bringing an adventure/action/exploration system into an MMO, but I believe there is probably a better way to go about it. Mike O’Brien talked about how rasing the level cap was the easy way out and not particularly compelling. I agree that Masteries are a much cooler idea, but I think experience grind tacked onto Masteries is the easy way out and it could be better.

Yeah the effort and challenge should be in acquiring mastery points, rather than throwing an xp grind on top of it. When you’re cycling around grinding or repeating events over and over for xp, I’m not having fun, I’m not having an adventure, I’m not exploring, I’m grinding, I’m just “going through the motions”

When I’m exploring and trying to find out how to get to an orb that looks “impossible” to get, I’m brainstorming, I’m thinking, I’m trying things out, I’m engaged with the content and if I figure it out, I feel success.

There’s no feeling of success from repeating events over and over for xp.

laokoko.7403:

you’ll probably finish all the mastery in a month anyway.

Some people will probably finish it in less than a week, unless ANet heavily alters how difficult it is to level once you hit anet.

yes the mastery system feels like a good idea combined with a less than good idea. Keep in mind later masteries will probably require more exp to level, and you get a very odd system where you
do something interesting
grind
do something interesting
grind

Also, the masteries themselves feel pretty uninspired. The combat one was basically agony resistance again. (reduce condition damage from mordrem)

too many of the solutions to design problems revolve around just playing with some numbers.

i mean i do see the value in making experience points worthwhile, but it doesnt connect well with the content/mechanics its attached to.
grind exp to get better at talking to beast tribe? illogical? grind exp to learn to fly better?

Well its going to come down to execution, but it seems very artificial at this point.

I found the initial confusion to be brief. The “unlock and then grind” quickly becomes a familiar system and I really don’t have a problem with it.

Nike.2631:

Reward after effort.

Radical!

Right?

“Spend point”

“Grind XP”

So….its pretty much exactly what I was saying it was going to be. Neither surprised, nor unhappy really. We drown in XP in this game. Oh you completed an event? XP. You rezzed someone? XP. You chopped a tree? XP. Hell, if you sneeze you get awarded XP. It could be so much worse….

it’s what ANET said at the HoT announcement that it was going to be… use points to unlock the tracks, earn XP to complete the tracks (instead of gaining skill points for “levelling up”)

Do we have to activate a mastery to benefit from it, so we can only “equip” once at a time ?

Are we really having a QQ fest over xp in GW2? XP is the easiest and quickest currency you can acquire! I have thousands of Skill Points/scrolls unused. I could level up a character to level 80 in just a few days not using any tomes/writs. XP is every where in this game. Guild bonuses, food/maintenance oils, boosters galore and bonus xp from straying off the beaten path are just a few easy ways to boost one’s xp gain.

Putting xp and grind in the same sentence is so laughable with GW2. Just play the game and the xp will come. The demo was a very small area with a limited amount of xp gain. XP in gw2 should never be complained about. Just too easy to come by!

Bandit.8279:

Are we really having a QQ fest over xp in GW2? XP is the easiest and quickest currency you can acquire! I have thousands of Skill Points/scrolls unused. I could level up a character to level 80 in just a few days not using any tomes/writs. XP is every where in this game. Guild bonuses, food/maintenance oils, boosters galore and bonus xp from straying off the beaten path are just a few easy ways to boost one’s xp gain.

Putting xp and grind in the same sentence is so laughable with GW2. Just play the game and the xp will come. The demo was a very small area with a limited amount of xp gain. XP in gw2 should never be complained about. Just too easy to come by!

keep in mind, mastery progression only happens in the proper zone. So, whatever you are used to for exp, may not be the case in HoT. You only have a few zones, so you wont get a large amount of exp from exploration. You may not have map completion rewards. You have no hearts. No dungeons, (dungeons are all in pact tyria)
So while exp probably wont be too hard to get, you will basically only get it from events. Since exploration is blocked by mastery progress, you will probably have, at least at the start a fairly limited choice of what events are available.

Essentially, you will be leveling up to progress. How one feels about that? well that will depend on the person/excution

By “Grind XP”, do you mean “Stockpile writs of experience between now and HoT release”?

Presumably Tomes of Knowledge would work too.

Notwithstanding the above. It is supposed to be a progression system. I don’t know why people are surprised that it takes a bit of a time investment to progress. I’m certain there will be more than enough events to farm up XP from, once you’re into the game you probably wont even notice. Gaining a level feels quite trivial after L80, it’s nice that it’ll mean something.

Sarie.1630:

By “Grind XP”, do you mean “Stockpile writs of experience between now and HoT release”?

Presumably Tomes of Knowledge would work too.

Notwithstanding the above. It is supposed to be a progression system. I don’t know why people are surprised that it takes a bit of a time investment to progress. I’m certain there will be more than enough events to farm up XP from, once you’re into the game you probably wont even notice. Gaining a level feels quite trivial after L80, it’s nice that it’ll mean something.

not sure tomes of knowledge will still function for mastery experience, after all, you are not exactly gaining levels. As far as being a progression system, yeah i get it, but its a question of balance. Will it be designed such that you have whatever experience is needed to progress just by doing whatever is around as you explore, or will it be balanced so you have to actually farm the exp.

Its essentially the difference in an RPG where exp is balanced to occur naturally, versus an rpg where you are supposed to go out and train before you progress. Which path they will choose is unknown at this point.

It is clear that many of these will end up being straight progress gates. So what type of set up it has will definately have an effect on player enjoyment.

I’d bet the mushroom thing was a mistake, you’d expect first ability to come with the unlock, as works with some of the others.

Windsagio.1340:

I’d bet the mushroom thing was a mistake, you’d expect first ability to come with the unlock, as works with some of the others.

As it works with some of the others in the demo.

The mushroom track is the one working as intended. The others are gimmies to improve your odds against the wyvern when the world is going to implode within the hour…

Sarie.1630:

By “Grind XP”, do you mean “Stockpile writs of experience between now and HoT release”?

Presumably Tomes of Knowledge would work too.

In the face of relentless questioning they did announce that Tomes of Knowledge will work on day one Revenants and that they had not decided yet if Tomes would advance mastery tracks.

As a matter of clarity in design I hope they do (an XP is an XP is an XP…) but we’re all awaiting a final decision while some of us continue to stockpile .

Simzani.4318:

Do we have to activate a mastery to benefit from it, so we can only “equip” once at a time ?

No, you can only level one track at a time but once you’ve unlocked something you have it available no matter what track you’re leveling.

Nike.2631:

Windsagio.1340:

I’d bet the mushroom thing was a mistake, you’d expect first ability to come with the unlock, as works with some of the others.

As it works with some of the others in the demo.

The mushroom track is the one working as intended. The others are gimmies to improve your odds against the wyvern when the world is going to implode within the hour…

I bet you that they’ll end up working the other way at the end of the day.

Whatever the intent was, there’s a massive amount of feedback about how confusing it is, and designers hate that.

Personally, I’d favor reversing it to match the demo functionality of gliders.

In other words, once you spend a mastery point you get the ability. However, to be able to spend mastery points on the next tier you need to fill the bar.

This means that the act of spending mastery points gives the ability, but there is an experience-based cooldown associated to generate progression/time invested.

Windsagio.1340:

I bet you that they’ll end up working the other way at the end of the day.

Whatever the intent was, there’s a massive amount of feedback about how confusing it is, and designers hate that.

With the time available to them, most designers will pitch it back to have a better UI and tutorial/hints attached to it LONG before they’ll give up the key time sink at the root of all future character progression.

I don’t realy get some of you.

How can you claim that you have to grind to get to level up your Maserie? Well it is like how you have to “grind” to get to level 80 in this game as people say. Well ofcourse you grind if you go to EoTM and Farm with the zerg over and over again. But if you explore the world, play the story, do the events that you pass and enjoy the game for the fun parts you eventually hit level 80.

Now I havent tried HoT ofcourse so I dunno how hard it is to level Masteries, but I am pretty sure that if I just play the game and enjoy it’s content I will have most masteries max leveled. I am pretty sure that I won’t get a new mastery and then I go grind same mobs over and over again just to level up the mastery, I will brobably do fun stuff and level up the masteries while doing it. Just as I have when I leveled over 10 characters to level 80 without leveling tomes and grinding.

As LanfearShadowflame.3189 said, you gain XP for more or less everything in this game… I don’t see why some people have to grind.

I am not gonna say it is good or bad until I have tried it but it does not sound like grinding to me.

EdgarMTanaka.7291:

I don’t realy get some of you.

How can you claim that you have to grind to get to level up your Maserie? Well it is like how you have to “grind” to get to level 80 in this game as people say. Well ofcourse you grind if you go to EoTM and Farm with the zerg over and over again. But if you explore the world, play the story, do the events that you pass and enjoy the game for the fun parts you eventually hit level 80.

Now I havent tried HoT ofcourse so I dunno how hard it is to level Masteries, but I am pretty sure that if I just play the game and enjoy it’s content I will have most masteries max leveled. I am pretty sure that I won’t get a new mastery and then I go grind same mobs over and over again just to level up the mastery, I will brobably do fun stuff and level up the masteries while doing it. Just as I have when I leveled over 10 characters to level 80 without leveling tomes and grinding.

As LanfearShadowflame.3189 said, you gain XP for more or less everything in this game… I don’t see why some people have to grind.

I am not gonna say it is good or bad until I have tried it but it does not sound like grinding to me.

the thing is masteries are basically content locks here. People who played the beta basically had to grind exp points if they wanted to do the stuff that was available to them.

If they do balance it so that the exp required feels natural within exploring the areas, then it will be fine, but within the area they made available, you had no way to experience some of the content without grinding.
As for the game handing out xp, like i said, thats in pact tyria. Hot tyria? who knows. In the demo though, people had to grind.

Im pretty sure they plan to make you want to seek experience. Not sure how i feel about that. On one hand experience mattering gives potential for making content rewarding, On the other hand, it seems really odd to start grinding dynamic events to learn lore.

I guess it will boil down to how much exp you will need, and also how many different ways you can get exp. For example will they have lore related content? tons of experience points unlocked for exploration with a hang glider? (more than before)

Nike.2631:

Sarie.1630:

By “Grind XP”, do you mean “Stockpile writs of experience between now and HoT release”?

Presumably Tomes of Knowledge would work too.

In the face of relentless questioning they did announce that Tomes of Knowledge will work on day one Revenants and that they had not decided yet if Tomes would advance mastery tracks.

As a matter of clarity in design I hope they do (an XP is an XP is an XP…) but we’re all awaiting a final decision while some of us continue to stockpile .

I’d be quite happy if they disallowed Tomes for Mastery progress, but I think that goes against the idea of them. They are conveniences for levelling, so I suppose, why not Mastery tracks, as it is their alternative to levelling in an XPac world.

I don’t really mind which outcome they settle on, but I’m sure if Tomes are not permitted then some people will be raging!

EdgarMTanaka.7291:

I don’t realy get some of you.

How can you claim that you have to grind to get to level up your Maserie? Well it is like how you have to “grind” to get to level 80 in this game as people say.

Something you need to learn, my friend. Some players really do consider everything, even loading the game itself, to be such a horrific grind, and completely fail to see that if everything was unlocked for you from day 1 there would really be no reason for the game to exist.

MMO Rule 1: If you have to move your wrist, it’s a grind!

Nike.2631:

Windsagio.1340:

I bet you that they’ll end up working the other way at the end of the day.

Whatever the intent was, there’s a massive amount of feedback about how confusing it is, and designers hate that.

With the time available to them, most designers will pitch it back to have a better UI and tutorial/hints attached to it LONG before they’ll give up the key time sink at the root of all future character progression.

Na, it’s better to give immediate bang for the buck and teach up front. We know from other things they’ve said that a large number of players don’t read the tutorials or tooltips (this is pretty well known in the design community, almost a truism).

There’s a huge communication disconnect when a mastery track says ‘this allows you to interact with mushrooms’ and then it doesn’t work… as the Beta feedback reveals.

I could be wrong (not working at anet), but this is about as cut-and-dried as it gets.