Guild Wars 2

It’s not as bad as when WvW was part of world complete, but I agree it’s annoying. However, map completion doesn’t have to be done right now. It’s one aspect of the game, not the entire game. In theory if you keep checking, you’ll catch it.

Essentially the only real problem is you have to do it now.

You say you’ve wasted time. Why? You’re not getting event credit? You’re not getting XP toward masteries? You’re not getting loot?

It’s only a waste of time because of your focus.

Some collections require map completion. You can argue that it can be done any time later but its still annoying and stupid. It is also possible the “later” time turns out to be much worse when the number of players staying in HoT maps reduces, possibly making the completion of map-wide meta events even rarer.

Vayne.8563:

However, map completion doesn’t have to be done right now.

That’s an absurd defense. The spirit of map completion has, with few exceptions, always been “do it when you want to do it.” The issue is not “wanting to do it right now” versus wanting to do it later. The issue is lacking the freedom to do it when you want to do it. That’s the point.

Video games run on choice. Every time you take away choice, you are left with less of a video game and more an interactive graphic novel. I’m being a tad hyperbolic to make a point here. The principle of the thing is rather important when it starts adding up.

Labjax.2465:

Vayne.8563:

However, map completion doesn’t have to be done right now.

That’s an absurd defense. The spirit of map completion has, with few exceptions, always been “do it when you want to do it.” The issue is not “wanting to do it right now” versus wanting to do it later. The issue is lacking the freedom to do it when you want to do it. That’s the point.

Video games run on choice. Every time you take away choice, you are left with less of a video game and more an interactive graphic novel. I’m being a tad hyperbolic to make a point here. The principle of the thing is rather important when it starts adding up.

It’s not an absurd defense. You have an tendency to see anything you disagree with as absurd or wrong, which is frankly absurd. Nor is it a defense.

End game content always changes the rules. It did in Guild Wars 1 and it does here. For example, when most of us played Guild Wars 1, we could have heroes and henchmen, but in certain areas, you couldn’t have henchmen…end game content.

Map completion in the original game, originally had WvW, which was something you couldn’t do when you wanted. I remember waiting for weeks to get a single point of interest in a single tower, because we were never the right color.

That was map completion at launch. Do you think I didn’t keep returning to WvW to check it time and time again?

Are you saying this isn’t the case.

Map completion was taken out of WvW after two years. For two bloody years, some people had real serious problems getting map completion and now you come out and say waiting for a meta event is a bogus defense? It’s not a defense at all.

Some people are suggesting that all map completion was always easy and never required any time or effort or waiting, which is absolutely demonstrably false.

So you miss there the vine is a couple of times. So a collection depends on it. So the collection takes longer. It took me longer to get my world complete to get my first legendary because I was held up by WvW.

Saying that collections or map complete or world complete was never gated by anything and you could always do it any time is simply wrong.

Easy and effort are subjective thus can’t be demonstrated to be false and arguably anything you do takes waiting/ time. So obviously no one has said those things about map completion. :P

Other than that. Map completion has always been connected to the state of the map. Silverwastes has half the map locked behind the skritt event. For example.
Whenever ArenaNet said you can do it at any time means you can attempt it at any time. But this gives no guarantees on difficulty or success.

Also previous results don’t give a guarantee for the future. Content in HoT is alot more different than main Tyria.

While it may be a bother to people. 99% of the complaints is solved by asking for help from other people. Especially when it’s something like pushing a set of events.

In HoT it’s no effort to Apple Up and ask for help at your apple. (Though I still think it’s more of a mentee tag than a mentor tag that way :p)

Good god who started teh phrase gating? Just be patient do something else come back for it.Or as he said ask for help. They not gonna run around and start breaking mechanics they have had sonce day one because a few impatient minorities start complaining.

I hate it with a passion . . . especially in Dragon Stand. I love exploring and completing maps, but having a zerg requirement to do this because certain parts of the map are otherwise cut off?

Worst decision ever.

I agree with the OP, completing a map shouldn’t be gated behind the success of certain meta-events, ect. Events should be there to do if you “Want to” not “Well I need this event to be successful so I can get this POI/HP/Vista/WP ect.”…. Getting map completion in HoT is challenging enough, having to depend on certain events to be successful, which 7 out of 10 times, they aren’t, is frustratingly annoying to say the least.

I agree with OP, currently, map system isn’t working right, and im constantly getting in the same under popped map, with nothing going for it. I just want to get poi’s. not do the events, which im currently DR’d on..

It’s rapidly becoming impossible to ‘do what you want, when you want’ and this game now feels more ‘log in after checking event timer, get lucky with lfg into good map, get lucky completing long boring meta event and maybe you have a chance at people sticking around to complete HP’s , POI’s, etc before map shuts again’.

Add that to the fact that my brain hurts as soon as I step foot in TD and map completion has gone from being fun to being next to impossible and/or tedious.

Anyone who says’ look for an event, etc’ bear in mind a lot of people can only log on for an hour or two a couple times a week, they aren’t wedded to the game.

Notsoperky.2348:

It’s rapidly becoming impossible to ‘do what you want, when you want’ and this game now feels more ‘log in after checking event timer, get lucky with lfg into good map, get lucky completing long boring meta event and maybe you have a chance at people sticking around to complete HP’s , POI’s, etc before map shuts again’.

Add that to the fact that my brain hurts as soon as I step foot in TD and map completion has gone from being fun to being next to impossible and/or tedious.

Anyone who says’ look for an event, etc’ bear in mind a lot of people can only log on for an hour or two a couple times a week, they aren’t wedded to the game.

What you said here is true. A lot of people can only log in for an hour or two every couple of weeks. But no game company can make games aimed at those people. It’s not a reasonable expectation.

What locks my AB map completion is the Story Mode. I don’t want to play that crap, make the area explorable to anyone with Exalted Markings.

Vayne.8563:

Labjax.2465:

Vayne.8563:

However, map completion doesn’t have to be done right now.

That’s an absurd defense. The spirit of map completion has, with few exceptions, always been “do it when you want to do it.” The issue is not “wanting to do it right now” versus wanting to do it later. The issue is lacking the freedom to do it when you want to do it. That’s the point.

Video games run on choice. Every time you take away choice, you are left with less of a video game and more an interactive graphic novel. I’m being a tad hyperbolic to make a point here. The principle of the thing is rather important when it starts adding up.

It’s not an absurd defense. You have an tendency to see anything you disagree with as absurd or wrong, which is frankly absurd. Nor is it a defense.

It is, a very, very absurd defence. Map completion is always up to the player. Players should never have to sacrifice real life for a stupid game.

Games should be fun, not a second job.

If you don’t have a life so be it, but don’t force others to waste theirs.

Vayne.8563:

Labjax.2465:

Vayne.8563:

However, map completion doesn’t have to be done right now.

That’s an absurd defense. The spirit of map completion has, with few exceptions, always been “do it when you want to do it.” The issue is not “wanting to do it right now” versus wanting to do it later. The issue is lacking the freedom to do it when you want to do it. That’s the point.

Video games run on choice. Every time you take away choice, you are left with less of a video game and more an interactive graphic novel. I’m being a tad hyperbolic to make a point here. The principle of the thing is rather important when it starts adding up.

It’s not an absurd defense. You have an tendency to see anything you disagree with as absurd or wrong, which is frankly absurd. Nor is it a defense.

End game content always changes the rules. It did in Guild Wars 1 and it does here. For example, when most of us played Guild Wars 1, we could have heroes and henchmen, but in certain areas, you couldn’t have henchmen…end game content.

Map completion in the original game, originally had WvW, which was something you couldn’t do when you wanted. I remember waiting for weeks to get a single point of interest in a single tower, because we were never the right color.

That was map completion at launch. Do you think I didn’t keep returning to WvW to check it time and time again?

Are you saying this isn’t the case.

Map completion was taken out of WvW after two years. For two bloody years, some people had real serious problems getting map completion and now you come out and say waiting for a meta event is a bogus defense? It’s not a defense at all.

Some people are suggesting that all map completion was always easy and never required any time or effort or waiting, which is absolutely demonstrably false.

So you miss there the vine is a couple of times. So a collection depends on it. So the collection takes longer. It took me longer to get my world complete to get my first legendary because I was held up by WvW.

Saying that collections or map complete or world complete was never gated by anything and you could always do it any time is simply wrong.

Yes, and WvW completion was recently removed from map completion, possibly because there were so many complaints about it. It seems an odd design decision to remove core map completion from WvW, meaning players no longer needed to rely on collecting a herd to get it, but then make HoT map completion depend on people needing to collect a herd to get it.

Vayne.8563:

Notsoperky.2348:

It’s rapidly becoming impossible to ‘do what you want, when you want’ and this game now feels more ‘log in after checking event timer, get lucky with lfg into good map, get lucky completing long boring meta event and maybe you have a chance at people sticking around to complete HP’s , POI’s, etc before map shuts again’.

Add that to the fact that my brain hurts as soon as I step foot in TD and map completion has gone from being fun to being next to impossible and/or tedious.

Anyone who says’ look for an event, etc’ bear in mind a lot of people can only log on for an hour or two a couple times a week, they aren’t wedded to the game.

What you said here is true. A lot of people can only log in for an hour or two every couple of weeks. But no game company can make games aimed at those people. It’s not a reasonable expectation.

Try re reading what I said. An hour or two . A couple of times a week. That’s pretty much most games target audience. Add in a couple more times a week and that’s your average game player.

The logical conclusion to take from that is that WvW map completion was removed not because it took a so-called herd. =P I’m still questioning whether this is the case for HoT tbh.

Vayne.8563:

I’m not saying you don’t want everyone playing who can play but you can’t make an MMO for people who have no time to play. It really isn’t reasonable.

It’s funny people are so blinded by my white-knighting that they can’t recognize sound logic when they see it.

There is no logic in your posts, just opinions of single person. And you have not yet backed up those claims with anything.

Let me walk you through this. Slowly. So you perhaps understand. but if you don’t, there is no need to provide another example of your “sound logic”.

There is always more people who can play for shorter bursts of time, compared to people without jobs and schools and families, who sit on the game 12h straight. So, if you want to design a MMO, you know, with “massively multiplayer”, you are required to consider largest possible playerbase.

Making a game which requires logging in at exact specific time and stay in the game for several hours straight is bad because you lose most potential customers. Most people just are not able to play at exact times. People have other more important things to do, they log in and out and do something else for a while.

If your wildly flawed “logic” would have any real base, every modern MMO would be built like that – very long game events happening rarely and allowing only most dedicated players to take part and earn rewards. Can you please list those MMO-s created that way? Thought so.

Basically, you are making huge jumps from “I like to play this way” into “Everyone plays this way and this way is only real way to play”. That is not actually called logic. If anything, it is lack of logic.

Thank you, hope this helped

Vayne.8563:

It’s not an absurd defense. You have an tendency to see anything you disagree with as absurd or wrong, which is frankly absurd. Nor is it a defense.

End game content always changes the rules. It did in Guild Wars 1 and it does here. For example, when most of us played Guild Wars 1, we could have heroes and henchmen, but in certain areas, you couldn’t have henchmen…end game content.

Map completion in the original game, originally had WvW, which was something you couldn’t do when you wanted. I remember waiting for weeks to get a single point of interest in a single tower, because we were never the right color.

That was map completion at launch. Do you think I didn’t keep returning to WvW to check it time and time again?

Are you saying this isn’t the case.

Map completion was taken out of WvW after two years. For two bloody years, some people had real serious problems getting map completion and now you come out and say waiting for a meta event is a bogus defense? It’s not a defense at all.

Some people are suggesting that all map completion was always easy and never required any time or effort or waiting, which is absolutely demonstrably false.

So you miss there the vine is a couple of times. So a collection depends on it. So the collection takes longer. It took me longer to get my world complete to get my first legendary because I was held up by WvW.

Saying that collections or map complete or world complete was never gated by anything and you could always do it any time is simply wrong.

Lmao, what? “You have an tendency to see anything you disagree with as absurd or wrong, which is frankly absurd.” Seeing something you disagree with as wrong is part of the meaning of disagreeing.

Stop using strawman arguments and utter nonsense, please. They changed the WvW thing, presumably after enough time of people complaining and realizing that it was inconsistent with the design of the rest of the game. Then they go and do it again (albeit not in as large a way) in HoT? And you’re defending that? Justifying it? I don’t even know.

1) Anet obviously disagrees with your end-game analogy, considering the change they made to WvW and world completion.

2) I said the spirit of map completion with few exceptions. WvW was obviously one of those exceptions, which they rectified by making it something you don’t really need, unless you’re OCD about exploration. I never said anything about world completion being easy or that parts of it were never “gated.” When I talk about choice, I’m talking about map completion and most maps were (and are) straightforward and could be done when you want.

3) You having problems with getting a legendary in the past because of WvW does not somehow justify future design problems of the same kind. That is absurd. You are making it sound like it’s ok because you had to deal with it. It’s completely screwy.

IndigoSundown.5419:

Vayne.8563:

Labjax.2465:

Vayne.8563:

However, map completion doesn’t have to be done right now.

That’s an absurd defense. The spirit of map completion has, with few exceptions, always been “do it when you want to do it.” The issue is not “wanting to do it right now” versus wanting to do it later. The issue is lacking the freedom to do it when you want to do it. That’s the point.

Video games run on choice. Every time you take away choice, you are left with less of a video game and more an interactive graphic novel. I’m being a tad hyperbolic to make a point here. The principle of the thing is rather important when it starts adding up.

It’s not an absurd defense. You have an tendency to see anything you disagree with as absurd or wrong, which is frankly absurd. Nor is it a defense.

End game content always changes the rules. It did in Guild Wars 1 and it does here. For example, when most of us played Guild Wars 1, we could have heroes and henchmen, but in certain areas, you couldn’t have henchmen…end game content.

Map completion in the original game, originally had WvW, which was something you couldn’t do when you wanted. I remember waiting for weeks to get a single point of interest in a single tower, because we were never the right color.

That was map completion at launch. Do you think I didn’t keep returning to WvW to check it time and time again?

Are you saying this isn’t the case.

Map completion was taken out of WvW after two years. For two bloody years, some people had real serious problems getting map completion and now you come out and say waiting for a meta event is a bogus defense? It’s not a defense at all.

Some people are suggesting that all map completion was always easy and never required any time or effort or waiting, which is absolutely demonstrably false.

So you miss there the vine is a couple of times. So a collection depends on it. So the collection takes longer. It took me longer to get my world complete to get my first legendary because I was held up by WvW.

Saying that collections or map complete or world complete was never gated by anything and you could always do it any time is simply wrong.

Yes, and WvW completion was recently removed from map completion, possibly because there were so many complaints about it. It seems an odd design decision to remove core map completion from WvW, meaning players no longer needed to rely on collecting a herd to get it, but then make HoT map completion depend on people needing to collect a herd to get it.

This.

So why not just use the lfg to get some help to find a map with it open, or a group already doing the event to open the way?

Yeah, I hate waiting for the DS meta to succeed in order to finish up map completions. Especially since I’ve seen this thing fail more times than it succeeds in the last month. (I’m now at 3 time success. Yay…?)

And this is using all the avenues available to me in order to make it easier – LFG, firing up my own commander tag and leading, taxiing, taxiing, taxiing…

Yeah. I wish this map were like the original Tyria maps (Queensdale, Lornar’s Pass, Fireheart Rise, etc.) and I could just complete my maps at the same time the events are going on.

Hmm lets try a lore-based argument.
OP, I personally don’t think it would make any sense to make map exploration as easy as tyria simply because it feels meaningless (and where there is meaning, thre is no enjoyment) to see a character progree into an unknown map in such an easy way. Core tyria allowed that. Why? Because core tyria population lived in these regions for more than 250 years
As a side note I would also add that I heard there was some problems with map completion (if it has not been solved in the last patch, tell me please), so no need to rush and no neeed to be impatient
I actually like the fact that you won’t be able to just spend two hours in the map and say “ok i have finished this map, let’s get to the others”. The important fact to also consider is that these maps are story-driven and not putting an emphasis on that in an expansion which consists of only 4 giant maps so far is really not fun.
When I see these maps I feel like exploring them with my alts, which is not the case when I consider the tyria maps which feel boring to complete once I have already done it with one character (of course I am not incriminating the quality design of GW maps in general)

I won’t go further into debate about my original post but I have to comment on this since it’s so often used as an argument here.

Map completion in the original game, originally had WvW, which was something you couldn’t do when you wanted. I remember waiting for weeks to get a single point of interest in a single tower, because we were never the right color.

This is simply not true because for the first year or so everyone was able to simply switch the server for free and get map completion in WvWvW. You only had to wait a couple of days, later a week, before you were able to switch the server again. The important thing however was you could simply forget about WvWvW if you were not into it until it was time for you to change the server again. Here, you have to constantly camp the events and hope that everything goes fine to get what you need. It’s absolutely not comparable in regards to how much energy and time you have to invest for getting the same result.

flog.3485:

Hmm lets try a lore-based argument.
OP, I personally don’t think it would make any sense to make map exploration as easy as tyria simply because it feels meaningless (and where there is meaning, thre is no enjoyment) to see a character progree into an unknown map in such an easy way. Core tyria allowed that. Why? Because core tyria population lived in these regions for more than 250 years
As a side note I would also add that I heard there was some problems with map completion (if it has not been solved in the last patch, tell me please), so no need to rush and no neeed to be impatient
I actually like the fact that you won’t be able to just spend two hours in the map and say “ok i have finished this map, let’s get to the others”. The important fact to also consider is that these maps are story-driven and not putting an emphasis on that in an expansion which consists of only 4 giant maps so far is really not fun.
When I see these maps I feel like exploring them with my alts, which is not the case when I consider the tyria maps which feel boring to complete once I have already done it with one character (of course I am not incriminating the quality design of GW maps in general)

Ah, so it’s LORE that is stopping people form completing maps. That’s Ok then. As long as it’s Lore that prevents getting pieces to craft a precursor, map completion, lack of players in the maps…what an awful argument.

When I see these maps I feel like logging out. I have no drive to put myself through the same drivel for a second time on any alts, ever.

That’s if I ever get lucky enough to be on when the meta completes on the right map and I can figure out how to reach where I need to get to and other players are there to help rather than jumping ship to the next loot bag meta.

I’ll let you know if I ever get done with TD- Auric Basin I got finished by converting wvw points into HP points and got lucky enough to unlock the last one I needed that was gated behind a meta and either ley line gliding or some other gimmick. Sadly in TD I still need some HP’s , POI’s, Vistas etc which are blocked off by meta.

Notsoperky.2348:

Vayne.8563:

Notsoperky.2348:

It’s rapidly becoming impossible to ‘do what you want, when you want’ and this game now feels more ‘log in after checking event timer, get lucky with lfg into good map, get lucky completing long boring meta event and maybe you have a chance at people sticking around to complete HP’s , POI’s, etc before map shuts again’.

Add that to the fact that my brain hurts as soon as I step foot in TD and map completion has gone from being fun to being next to impossible and/or tedious.

Anyone who says’ look for an event, etc’ bear in mind a lot of people can only log on for an hour or two a couple times a week, they aren’t wedded to the game.

What you said here is true. A lot of people can only log in for an hour or two every couple of weeks. But no game company can make games aimed at those people. It’s not a reasonable expectation.

Try re reading what I said. An hour or two . A couple of times a week. That’s pretty much most games target audience. Add in a couple more times a week and that’s your average game player.

You play 2 to 4 hours a week. The average MMO time investment is 22 hours per week. When the average is 5-10 times more investment than you’re able to put into it, I’m afraid you don’t seem to be a part of that target audience.

Land of Cheese.2584:

Notsoperky.2348:

Vayne.8563:

Notsoperky.2348:

It’s rapidly becoming impossible to ‘do what you want, when you want’ and this game now feels more ‘log in after checking event timer, get lucky with lfg into good map, get lucky completing long boring meta event and maybe you have a chance at people sticking around to complete HP’s , POI’s, etc before map shuts again’.

Add that to the fact that my brain hurts as soon as I step foot in TD and map completion has gone from being fun to being next to impossible and/or tedious.

Anyone who says’ look for an event, etc’ bear in mind a lot of people can only log on for an hour or two a couple times a week, they aren’t wedded to the game.

What you said here is true. A lot of people can only log in for an hour or two every couple of weeks. But no game company can make games aimed at those people. It’s not a reasonable expectation.

Try re reading what I said. An hour or two . A couple of times a week. That’s pretty much most games target audience. Add in a couple more times a week and that’s your average game player.

You play 2 to 4 hours a week. The average MMO time investment is 22 hours per week. When the average is 5-10 times more investment than you’re able to put into it, I’m afraid you don’t seem to be a part of that target audience.

Of the links you provided the last is an article extrapolating from the report a marketing information group. A report I cannot read and evaluate by myself, so I don’t know what pitfalls the journalist has fallen into. And my experience is that journalists only rarely manages to report scientific findings correctly.

The mid link has no scientific value what so ever, being a forum poll with a rocking 156 respondents.

The daedalus site is interesting. The methods etc are correct, and it would be tremendously useful… if it hadn’t been in hibernation for the past 6 years. There’s nothing implicating from which year the data is, and these data do age significantly as the first and second generation gamers are finding themselves in a time of life where recreation tends to take a back seat to things like work and family.

It is also highly notable that both the Daedalus project and the article talk about total hours spent playing video games. Which means that some people will be dedicated to just one game and others will mix it up. One day feeling like playing an MMO, another day playing a single player platform game. So it doesn’t really say anything about how much time the average gamer spends playing GW2. And in fact, it is generally more interesting to talk about the median than the average.

trying to do map completion and coming across these events . is painfully lagged filled and makes it hard to just get the map done. shame they do not put these things into the guild halls for the guilds or something on that lines ;/

Fully agree. My biggest issue with this is that a couple expansions down the line (or maybe even just one expansion down the line), HoT maps will be significantly emptier, with metas rarely going to completion. Some of these POIs are locked behind group events for crying out loud.

I agree. A few days ago, I finally completed the Silverwastes map. It was the first time I was ever in the map when the big final event was running. I would have been disappointed if the event had failed and the last zone remained closed-off.

Moyayuki.3619:

I agree. A few days ago, I finally completed the Silverwastes map. It was the first time I was ever in the map when the big final event was running. I would have been disappointed if the event had failed and the last zone remained closed-off.

And yet it happens, even in the Silverwastes. It’s not very different from the Temples in Orr, which made it very very hard to get the communes on the hero points in them when they weren’t captured after an event.

Vayne.8563:

Moyayuki.3619:

I agree. A few days ago, I finally completed the Silverwastes map. It was the first time I was ever in the map when the big final event was running. I would have been disappointed if the event had failed and the last zone remained closed-off.

And yet it happens, even in the Silverwastes. It’s not very different from the Temples in Orr, which made it very very hard to get the communes on the hero points in them when they weren’t captured after an event.

I actually find all Orr maps to be loads easier than Dry Top, Silverwastes, and HoT maps. Easier to navigate, easier to complete, easier to survive. Though I 100% realize that the Orr maps were nerfed at one point, and the LS and HoT maps are deliberately more difficult. However, I also find no issue with getting into the temple events in Orr, the ones that make it easier to acquire the PoI or WP (some temples I can run in and out easily).

Moyayuki.3619:

Vayne.8563:

Moyayuki.3619:

I agree. A few days ago, I finally completed the Silverwastes map. It was the first time I was ever in the map when the big final event was running. I would have been disappointed if the event had failed and the last zone remained closed-off.

And yet it happens, even in the Silverwastes. It’s not very different from the Temples in Orr, which made it very very hard to get the communes on the hero points in them when they weren’t captured after an event.

I actually find all Orr maps to be loads easier than Dry Top, Silverwastes, and HoT maps. Easier to navigate, easier to complete, easier to survive. Though I 100% realize that the Orr maps were nerfed at one point, and the LS and HoT maps are deliberately more difficult. However, I also find no issue with getting into the temple events in Orr, the ones that make it easier to acquire the PoI or WP (some temples I can run in and out easily).

The problem isn’t running into the temple. It’s channeling the skill point when the temple isn’t under Pact control. The spawn rate makes that very hard solo, unless you have a profession that uses stealth. Sometimes you can do it on a ranger using the pet to distract, but it’s still not that easy. There’s also a champ that spawns near a skill point in Malchors, a risen knight, that kills many people who try to get that skill point.

But yes, I agree, the new zones are harder. Then again, there has been some power creep in the game, and many of us are more powerful.

Vayne.8563:

Moyayuki.3619:

Vayne.8563:

Moyayuki.3619:

I agree. A few days ago, I finally completed the Silverwastes map. It was the first time I was ever in the map when the big final event was running. I would have been disappointed if the event had failed and the last zone remained closed-off.

And yet it happens, even in the Silverwastes. It’s not very different from the Temples in Orr, which made it very very hard to get the communes on the hero points in them when they weren’t captured after an event.

I actually find all Orr maps to be loads easier than Dry Top, Silverwastes, and HoT maps. Easier to navigate, easier to complete, easier to survive. Though I 100% realize that the Orr maps were nerfed at one point, and the LS and HoT maps are deliberately more difficult. However, I also find no issue with getting into the temple events in Orr, the ones that make it easier to acquire the PoI or WP (some temples I can run in and out easily).

The problem isn’t running into the temple. It’s channeling the skill point when the temple isn’t under Pact control. The spawn rate makes that very hard solo, unless you have a profession that uses stealth. Sometimes you can do it on a ranger using the pet to distract, but it’s still not that easy. There’s also a champ that spawns near a skill point in Malchors, a risen knight, that kills many people who try to get that skill point.

But yes, I agree, the new zones are harder. Then again, there has been some power creep in the game, and many of us are more powerful.

I’ve been able to complete the Orr maps on many toons without too great difficulty, so it definitely shows that they are drastically more doable than later maps. Maybe I’ve just been lucky and have found many of the spots you are referring to cleared out when I got there.

A way to get what you want is to mentor tag up, start the south events and spam map chat to get others to you. Just as in real life, if you’re not lucky, you make your own luck. The self interests of other players is your best tool.

Vayne.8563:

It’s not as bad as when WvW was part of world complete, but I agree it’s annoying. However, map completion doesn’t have to be done right now. It’s one aspect of the game, not the entire game. In theory if you keep checking, you’ll catch it.

Essentially the only real problem is you have to do it now.

You say you’ve wasted time. Why? You’re not getting event credit? You’re not getting XP toward masteries? You’re not getting loot?

It’s only a waste of time because of your focus.

It’s a waste of time because it’s tedious. It’s a waste because it blocks progress towards various goals without adding to the sense of accomplishment after completing them. It’s a waste because it works against the simplicity of mechanics found in the rest of the game.

I don’t see anyone claiming that event-gating and time-gating make the maps more fun for more people than maps that don’t include any gating.

GW2 did away with traditional quests (events just start and you participate or not), new collection events often don’t require you to speak with an NPC/node (or if you do, you don’t have to confirm acceptance of the items; they just take them). GW2 makes so many things so much easier than other games and then they bring back old school gating, that serves no particular purpose in making a game more fun; it just serves to slow us down.

Surely if there are good reasons to slow us down, there are better mechanics that can accomplish the same result without being so painful.

Gating is just another way to get people to do stuff they might otherwise avoid doing. It is indeed a way to slow people down, but I don’t think that is its purpose, which I believe instead to be to provide more bodies, over time, to do the gating event/whatever.

Illconceived Was Na.9781:

Vayne.8563:

It’s not as bad as when WvW was part of world complete, but I agree it’s annoying. However, map completion doesn’t have to be done right now. It’s one aspect of the game, not the entire game. In theory if you keep checking, you’ll catch it.

Essentially the only real problem is you have to do it now.

You say you’ve wasted time. Why? You’re not getting event credit? You’re not getting XP toward masteries? You’re not getting loot?

It’s only a waste of time because of your focus.

It’s a waste of time because it’s tedious. It’s a waste because it blocks progress towards various goals without adding to the sense of accomplishment after completing them. It’s a waste because it works against the simplicity of mechanics found in the rest of the game.

I don’t see anyone claiming that event-gating and time-gating make the maps more fun for more people than maps that don’t include any gating.

GW2 did away with traditional quests (events just start and you participate or not), new collection events often don’t require you to speak with an NPC/node (or if you do, you don’t have to confirm acceptance of the items; they just take them). GW2 makes so many things so much easier than other games and then they bring back old school gating, that serves no particular purpose in making a game more fun; it just serves to slow us down.

Surely if there are good reasons to slow us down, there are better mechanics that can accomplish the same result without being so painful.

Oh sure, no one is saying it’s more fun that gates exist. However if you take away every game, you have not enough content people burn through it in a day and they have nothing to do, they leave the game, and go play something with gates. It’s a sad state of affairs, but that’s the state of affairs. The gating, at least in part, is what keeps the game alive.

There has always been things in this game gated to one degree or another. Even leveling there were plenty of gates even at launch. The gates serve many purposes.

They do have the effect of stopping the most casual players from staying on a map to actually do events they never would have tried because those events were out of their comfort zone. And the ones on the far end of that don’t do it at all, but that doesn’t mean it’s not better for the game over all.

This is the problem from a game designers point of view. If you give most people what they want, they leave. That’s because so many people really just want to get it done so they can move to another game.

The game that keeps them their longer is the winner.

Vayne.8563:

It’s not as bad as when WvW was part of world complete,

I really miss the days when you had to go to WvW for the world competion, made it a kittenallenging, not the snoozefest as it is now.

mbhalo.1547:

Vayne.8563:

It’s not as bad as when WvW was part of world complete,

I really miss the days when you had to go to WvW for the world competion, made it a kittenallenging, not the snoozefest as it is now.

But for people who dislike PvP of any kind and there are plenty of them, it was very stressful. I did WvW completes on six different characters, before they changed it, but even that was relatively easy for me, since my server was dominant for a lot of the time and I just had to wait to change colors. We owned most things in our own borderland and when that happened I’d just go take everything.

And that required little to no skill, just time, so, it much the same to me.

Moyayuki.3619:

I’ve been able to complete the Orr maps on many toons without too great difficulty, so it definitely shows that they are drastically more doable than later maps. Maybe I’ve just been lucky and have found many of the spots you are referring to cleared out when I got there.

Can’t you apply that same luck argument to the things you are saying are locked/gated in HoT maps?

Illconceived Was Na.9781:

It’s a waste of time because it’s tedious. It’s a waste because it blocks progress towards various goals without adding to the sense of accomplishment after completing them.

Au contraire. I’m sure there are examples where categorically that may be correct but using AB as my argument:
If you power up all the Eastwatch pylons you get a time-limited stab at Vinetooth. This may be your goal. It may just be a handy by-product of wanting to complete the Eastwatch events as that’s a goal in its own right. You are also contributing to the meta and that’s a definite goal for the whole map.

The poi that is blocked behind vines is behind a group event to retake that part of the map and is quite good fun, ending up at the champ bramble. The poi being behind some vines isn’t there to ruin your game. The event chain that opens it up is fun and then you get the poi. Fun and a goal. It remains open for a while even if you didn’t do the event. Again the event is part of a chain of events that you get rewarded for and it contributes to the meta.

Illconceived Was Na.9781:

It’s a waste because it works against the simplicity of mechanics found in the rest of the game.

What simple mechanics would you like to compare here?

Illconceived Was Na.9781:

I don’t see anyone claiming that event-gating and time-gating make the maps more fun for more people than maps that don’t include any gating.

ME! I love soloing round and then joining events to get to the bits I can’t get to. Don’t get that much in core maps anymore unless there’s a daily dungeon and everyone needs a group or a world boss event or you want to do fractals. All those people saying HoT is too hard.. if there was more stuff that was unlocked like in AB by a zergy meta, maybe there would be less complaining. I would not want more maps where you just round and round and round and r.. well you get the picture.. like Orr. AB feels more like a more involved Gendarran Fields.

Illconceived Was Na.9781:

old school gating, that serves no particular purpose in making a game more fun; it just serves to slow us down.

I don’t see it slowing me down at all. I join a meta map, meta map completes map, I complete map. If it was just like Orr I could take all my toons round that in a couple of hours solo. I want the game to do more to make people socialise with me and the metas do that. Slowing things down also means whilst I’m there on the East, people will come do the Trespassers HP. It’s a bit of a trek if you’re not there already, not the easiest one to explain where it is or to get people to come help you. But whilst you are there doing the events it’s an easy one to get help with and the timer gives you time to get it done.

Illconceived Was Na.9781:

Surely if there are good reasons to slow us down, there are better mechanics that can accomplish the same result without being so painful.

If there are, what would they be?

Vayne.8563:

It’s not as bad as when WvW was part of world complete

^^^ Imagine having to wait 2 months for an opportunity to get ONE last POI and Vista in Green Garri for Been There Done That. It happened and it was awful.

While I agree that the POI you’re referring to can be problematic, it’s not nearly as bad as the Hero Point Anet relocated because it interfered with peoples map completion. Even still, that POI is easier to obtain in some peoples eyes compared to the one you have to do like 7 chapters of the story to access (unless they nerfed that as well).

the best map to complete requirments for elite weapons collections is VB. The POIS gated behind night time, can ben reached in a single run.

Only two POI’s are locked behind a meta in AB. You have the one up north and another south. The south one is available fairly quickly. Both of these can normally be obtained by hopping into the map about 10 min before challenges start. I’ve done map completion 13 times and this is how I typically got these.

DS is another different as you essentially need the meta to progress to get the stuff at the blighting towers and at MoM. The mushroom HP also requires the meta to be completed unless that was changes with the April update. Doing one meta is enough time to get complete the map so I don’t really see how it’s an issue. The only reason to do map completion is for the HoT legendaries and you’re going to have to farm DS anyway for crystalline ore.