Guild Wars 2

Nothing is more frustrating than having to spend close to an hour on a minor event in Auric Basin because no one is around to help. With creatures that have fast spawn rates, large dmg outputs, huge health pools and overwhelming herds – it’s simply not enjoyable.

Isn’t it possible to innovate like you said you would? I mean, imagine creating a solo experience yet adding group play without being tacky? If done right, you probably could get away with ‘innovation’ and please both group + solo interests. What a notion!

A very broad starting point: how about personal quests that trigger around a player and thus naturally become group events because they triggered in open world? Magic. Scaling would still take effect depending who’s around, yet more importantly it won’t waste time when no one is around. It’s like removing personal story altogether and merging it with the open world. Two birds with one stone.

That’s only one general example. I’m pretty sure you could get away with something better, right? Innovate is the keyword after all.

In an MMO, the emphasis should be on figuring out how to ensure that people are around for events.

If you are finding yourself alone, look for taxis to fuller maps.

Illconceived Was Na.9781:

In an MMO, the emphasis should be on figuring out how to ensure that people are around for events.

Whom is that emphasis of figuring out placed upon? The Developer or the Player?

Soon.5240:

Illconceived Was Na.9781:

In an MMO, the emphasis should be on figuring out how to ensure that people are around for events.

Whom is that emphasis of figuring out placed upon? The Developer or the Player?

It should be on the developer. However, with taxi’s and the way the megaserver seems to work, it isn’t the case.

This is an MMO, not a solo game. The emphasis should NEVER be on solo play.

The emphasis should NEVER be on waiting.

raubvogel.5071:

The emphasis should NEVER be on waiting.

Of course not. The thing is: if there’s an issue, then the developer should look for massively-multiplayer ways to resolve it, not by giving up and turning the game into a solo world with in-game chat features.

Illconceived Was Na.9781:

…not by giving up and turning the game into a solo world with in-game chat features.

That’s not what I suggested.

Blackmoon.6837:

Illconceived Was Na.9781:

…not by giving up and turning the game into a solo world with in-game chat features.

That’s not what I suggested.

I was responding to another post (that you forgot to quote):

The emphasis should NEVER be on waiting.

And my point remains the same:
If there’s an issue, then the developer should look for massively-multiplayer ways to resolve it.

(I removed the other bit of the quote because apparently it distracted from the main point)

I like doing stuff on my own, too. I just don’t think it’s appropriate in an MMO to focus on solo-play experience.

I play alone, I just use LFG tool and never get a problem to get a map with people.

If I understand right, you want some quests that you can do solo. But hearts in core tyria are already what you looking for.

HoT maps are high level and endgame content. I never seen a MMO where end-game content is expected to be soloable. You play solo at the beginning then you learn to play with people. It’s exactly what is guild wars 2 imo.

MMO = Massively Multiplayer Online <> FPS

OP, the LFG tool gives up options to get to a busier map. It’s not automatic but the devs did provide you a tool to get to more people. If you choose not to use it, I’m not sure why they should re-engineer the game.

I disagree with you, Blackmoon. I prefer the hardcore environment. Without a sense of risk, and consequence, it is hard to immerse yourself in a game. This is something that Arena Net was very good at in the first Guild Wars. Getting from point A to B (outpost to outpost etc) was an adventure in itself, because of how dangerous the landscape was, and it felt like an accomplishment and a relief to arrive at your destination.

Arena Net forewent that sense of risk with Guild Wars 2, and I’m glad to see it somewhat restored in HoT. Catering to the carebear playerbase is something that no developer should regress to. It is directly related to a drab, uninteresting experience.
Keep the sense of adventure alive, keep the game difficult.

The whole game is built on solo play with casual grouping. That’s why it is so popular, just like GW1 was.
A game that requires lots of waiting around to group for normal stuff is a short-lived game.

I fear you guys are simply reading the title rather than expanding on the points being made.

This isn’t about hardcore versus casual play. Nor is it about catering to solo over group play.

It’s about introducing a system that balances solo & group play equally. You can still have difficulty with such a system, for example; splitting a quest line into three directions on the map - each direction being a different difficulty. So even if people aren’t around to scale the quests up, you’d still have your easy/med/hard etc.

Again, these are broad ideas and require more depth to hash out a proper mechanic. Yet given today’s industry, it really doesn’t seem like a far fetched notion.

HoT, currently, is broken. You could lfg, yet the emphasis is on swapping to meta events only and losing your map exp as a result. Trying to get a chain going for the smaller events is a joke. You either have to lucky by being on at the right time or you’re screwed. That’s not a ’play it my own way’ kind of deal.

It’s the mix of Megaserver fail and timers. It has been mentioned that the megaserver just isn’t clicking with the new Maps. I don’t know if returning to the “NPC Interact” is the best idea, but maybe. I thought the DS approach (certain number of people) to start chain would work but relies heavily on the mega so………fix the Mega?

Blackmoon.6837:

I fear you guys are simply reading the title rather than expanding on the points being made.

This isn’t about hardcore versus casual play. Nor is it about catering to solo over group play.

It’s about introducing a system that balances solo & group play equally. You can still have difficulty with such a system, for example; splitting a quest line into three directions on the map – each direction being a different difficulty. So even if people aren’t around to scale the quests up, you’d still have your easy/med/hard etc.

Again, these are broad ideas and require more depth to hash out a proper mechanic. Yet given today’s industry, it really doesn’t seem like a far fetched notion.

HoT, currently, is broken. You could lfg, yet the emphasis is on swapping to meta events only and losing your map exp as a result. Trying to get a chain going for the smaller events is a joke. You either have to lucky by being on at the right time or you’re screwed. That’s not a ‘play it my own way’ kind of deal.

Or you could make some friends or join a guild, and play with people. No, I don’t think I’m misreading what you’re saying. I think MMOs should focus on the single player experience and I think they have to be very careful on how they balance the single player experience.

There are a whole lot of people who walked out of Guild Wars 2 after heroes were introduced. They simply couldn’t find people to party with, and they didn’t want to play alone. For a lot of people heroes was a mistake. I’m not one of those people, but then, Guild Wars 1 wasn’t an MMO.

Vayne.8563:

OP, the LFG tool gives up options to get to a busier map. It’s not automatic but the devs did provide you a tool to get to more people. If you choose not to use it, I’m not sure why they should re-engineer the game.

The majority of people are likely just going to login and play. They won’t even think of using the LFG tool to taxi – they’ve probably never even used it before. As a result, a lot of these people are going to find themselves on inactive maps, which is going to cause a poor experience.

Taxi’ing only worsens the problem for everyone else. They should start by removing the reserved spots for party joiners and volunteering should work in reverse with a much greater incentive (maps fill to ~125% capacity, then split, ideally into a duplicate map in terms of progression). Teaching players that group events are in fact scaled for 3+ people, not just zergs, and displaying how many people are near an event would also greatly help.

BloodyNine.7504:

This is an MMO, not a solo game. The emphasis should NEVER be on solo play.

Except that’s the standard they set with the core game, so this logic doesn’t fly.

DoctorDing.5890:

The whole game is built on solo play with casual grouping. That’s why it is so popular, just like GW1 was.
A game that requires lots of waiting around to group for normal stuff is a short-lived game.

This a thousand times over. It was a selling point for God’s sakes. And it’s not a smart move to alienate the very people you attracted and made your game a bestseller. +1

LTREEVEY.2348:

It’s the mix of Megaserver fail and timers. It has been mentioned that the megaserver just isn’t clicking with the new Maps. I don’t know if returning to the “NPC Interact” is the best idea, but maybe. I thought the DS approach (certain number of people) to start chain would work but relies heavily on the mega so………fix the Mega?

I think this might really be at the root the issue. I personally enjoy both grouping and solo play. I don’t have issues with either one. But I am a casual player and what I am doing is figuring out the best way to get through things playing to my own style instead of just doing what everyone else is doing…that is unless I am in a group.

Personally, I think the server issue needs to be addressed. I am constantly being asked to change maps because mine is closing….when I chose not to, the first time I port, I lose what I had because the server automatically switches me.

It would be nice if the devs could figure out a way to fix this issue, but I think it will be some time in coming before we see any improvement on the maps. At least I’ve not seen any concrete information to that yet.

It’s an illusion to think that MMO’s are played only by those who like multiplayer games. In fact a lot of people buy them because of the bigger maps than their solo games, with an extra opportunity to trade with other players. So yes, it would be wise if maps were scaled up and down according to the number of players in the map (just like GW1).

You can still solo most of HoT like you could core Tyria. Yes, there will be some events that require more players as there’s normally a champ involved. No different that some events in core Tyria including those in Orr. Only 21/XX hero points can be done solo in HoT but that’s more than enough to unlock the elite specializations when couples with HP’s in core Tyria.

I am a solo player and really, really do not support this at all.

More than anything, anet needs to make the HoT map meta events doable with a much smaller group. A full map and a 2 hour commitment is unreasonable now that the HoT content is no longer interesting to many players. I’d like to see something along the lines of TD only having a single path to defend and one gerent to kill. Similarly, DS should be doable with only one group, rather than 3. The more these meta events fail due to insufficient players, the worse it is going to get as more and more players (like me) just get sick of wasting time and give up.

Most is not all like in core Tyria. The entire map of Dragon Stand proves this out. It’s zerg or go home.

Is it okay if I agree with everyone? This game should never involve waiting and I don’t think playing an MMO should necessarily force socialization. I personally prefer to play them like a singleplayer game, but w/ the presence of many other people giving me a sense of place and purpose.

At the same time, the world shouldn’t feel like it’s made for you like in a singleplayer game. It should sometimes make you feel small and vulnerable if you don’t have help. You should be able to be a hero, but it’ll be a slowly losing fight w/o allies.

Anyways, I don’t think it’s unreasonable to ask that megaservers be better tuned so people aren’t running around in an empty map. I can’t seem to get much done in Auric Basin myself.

Ardenwolfe.8590:

Most is not all like in core Tyria. The entire map of Dragon Stand proves this out. It’s zerg or go home.

The events outside the escorts can be done solo. If there weren’t champions in the escorts, those could probably be done solo. When I said most, I was referring to events.

Even though its an MMO, I don’t think the emphasis NEEDS to be on multiplayer activities.

I thought the balance in GW1 was perfect, I was in a guild and enjoyed the social side for some UW/FoW but most of the time I was out and about with my heroes/henchmen.

I miss that from Guild Wars 2

So much content in Gw2 is dead cause no one is doing it anymore, so much for mmo, single player options should be a thing, honestly it should be a massive thing, this game isn’t successful enough for everything to rely on multiplayer gameplay.

Ayrilana.1396:

Ardenwolfe.8590:

Most is not all like in core Tyria. The entire map of Dragon Stand proves this out. It’s zerg or go home.

The events outside the escorts can be done solo. If there weren’t champions in the escorts, those could probably be done solo. When I said most, I was referring to events.

A caveat does not make something less true. Even attempting to say Dragon Stand can be soloed is beyond the pale. You know this. But let’s talk about the other maps. You think the meta can be advanced to completion solo? How about any of the metas?

Exactly. Trying to say the maps can be soloed, even the events, is moot if the end still requires multiple zergs to complete to be successful.

Again, let’s not kid ourselves. It’s not solo friendly overall. The map wars and taxing again prove this out.

Ardenwolfe.8590:

Ayrilana.1396:

Ardenwolfe.8590:

Most is not all like in core Tyria. The entire map of Dragon Stand proves this out. It’s zerg or go home.

The events outside the escorts can be done solo. If there weren’t champions in the escorts, those could probably be done solo. When I said most, I was referring to events.

A caveat does not make something less true. Even attempting to say Dragon Stand can be soloed is beyond the pale. You know this. But let’s talk about the other maps? You think the meta can be advanced to completion solo? How about any of the metas?

Exactly. Trying to say the maps can be soloed, even the events, is moot is the end still requires multiple zergs to complete.

Again, let’s not kid ourselves. It’s not solo friendly overall. The map wars and taxing again prove this out.

You list an entire map as not being solo friendly when it’s only a few events that make it so. It’s as if you’re claiming that the Orr maps are not solo friendly because the temple events require a group to complete. The only events in DS that are not really solo friendly are the escorts along with the towers and final boss.

Other metas in HoT? How many metas in core Tyria require more than one person to complete? I guess those maps are not solo friendly either.

I am in no way saying that DS can be soloed. Nor was I saying other map metas could be soloed entirely. If you took the time to read my entire post then you would have seen that. If you did read my entire post then stop making up arguments and claiming they came from me.

Keep in mind DS isn’t static nor does it have to be. It can’t be soloed right now, no, but I think if the map became consistently empty in a way even megaservers couldn’t help — because of a new expansion or, Dwayna forbid, GW2 approaching death — I think ANet would probably change the map so soloing were possible or very close to it.

We saw something similar with the end of GW1’s lifecycle when they took the cap off how many heroes you could use.

Blackmoon.6837:

I fear you guys are simply reading the title rather than expanding on the points being made.

This isn’t about hardcore versus casual play. Nor is it about catering to solo over group play.

It’s about introducing a system that balances solo & group play equally. You can still have difficulty with such a system, for example; splitting a quest line into three directions on the map – each direction being a different difficulty. So even if people aren’t around to scale the quests up, you’d still have your easy/med/hard etc.

Again, these are broad ideas and require more depth to hash out a proper mechanic. Yet given today’s industry, it really doesn’t seem like a far fetched notion.

HoT, currently, is broken. You could lfg, yet the emphasis is on swapping to meta events only and losing your map exp as a result. Trying to get a chain going for the smaller events is a joke. You either have to lucky by being on at the right time or you’re screwed. That’s not a ‘play it my own way’ kind of deal.

What you forget is, people always take the path of least resistance. If solo starts becoming easier/faster than group, then group dies. So then to balance it out they try a few things like make grouping more rewarding, which makes the other people doing the solo path complain because they don’t get special rewards.

Perhaps they make solo harder then, in which case people complain cause of difficulty.

Not to mention trying to balance so many paths is going to take up more time and resources to just retune content over and over till its right. Sticking to one is easier.

I also don’t want to have something like “normal, hard, and mythic” difficulties in gw2 <.<

Serophous.9085:

Blackmoon.6837:

I fear you guys are simply reading the title rather than expanding on the points being made.

This isn’t about hardcore versus casual play. Nor is it about catering to solo over group play.

It’s about introducing a system that balances solo & group play equally. You can still have difficulty with such a system, for example; splitting a quest line into three directions on the map – each direction being a different difficulty. So even if people aren’t around to scale the quests up, you’d still have your easy/med/hard etc.

Again, these are broad ideas and require more depth to hash out a proper mechanic. Yet given today’s industry, it really doesn’t seem like a far fetched notion.

HoT, currently, is broken. You could lfg, yet the emphasis is on swapping to meta events only and losing your map exp as a result. Trying to get a chain going for the smaller events is a joke. You either have to lucky by being on at the right time or you’re screwed. That’s not a ‘play it my own way’ kind of deal.

What you forget is, people always take the path of least resistance. If solo starts becoming easier/faster than group, then group dies. So then to balance it out they try a few things like make grouping more rewarding, which makes the other people doing the solo path complain because they don’t get special rewards.

Perhaps they make solo harder then, in which case people complain cause of difficulty.

Not to mention trying to balance so many paths is going to take up more time and resources to just retune content over and over till its right. Sticking to one is easier.

I also don’t want to have something like “normal, hard, and mythic” difficulties in gw2 <.<

However, if there is no solo play and no one is around, then the player can’t complete the content. He will have no choice but to quit. People that played within a few months within launch are lucky because expansion content is bustling with people. There was no problem finding people to help me with getting a skillpoint. Right now, when I visited Auric Basin, I couldn’t find a single person around to help me with a group dynamic event. In the future, the maps will be empty because there will be newer content to go to. It will be even more empty because the HoT content is very difficult to complete without another player around.

A balance is needed. A player all alone isn’t going to wait for another player to play with. He will either get lucky that he finds another player or quit because he couldn’t complete the content.

Blackmoon.6837:

I fear you guys are simply reading the title rather than expanding on the points being made.

This isn’t about hardcore versus casual play. Nor is it about catering to solo over group play.

It’s about introducing a system that balances solo & group play equally.

Critics of the OP’s idea already think that the game sufficiently balances solo & group play and that any issues should be resolved by emphasizing the group aspects, not the solo ones.

At the moment, there’s a major loophole in the megaserver system:

• Determined players use LFG to move to organized maps.
• Anyone randomly arriving in a map finds it empty, because the groups above are in a (nearly) full instance and the system drops the latest arrivals into a new map.
• Upon finding a ‘dead’ map, random arrivals are likely to leave rather than organize or move, which then leaves that same map empty.

It’s better for the MMO called GW2 if ANet is able to resolve this easy-to-observe|tricky-to-fix problem. The OP’s recommendations work-around this issue, by giving more control to single players. That sets the trend towards less massive groups of players, rather than more more.

I agree that ANet needs to address this. I agree that it’s going to require some clever innovation. The only thing I disagree with is the emphasis on the individual rather than the group.

The LFG tool is simply a tool, without requirements or instructions.
Many player have taxies running far beyond the end of any event they were advertising. Experience this a few times and the tool becomes worthless in the players mind.
I’m starting to suspect it is being used to prevent new maps from being created sometimes.

Can they make content for say a group of 5 or 10 but make it scale down immediately if there is only one player attacking? If they can, how would this hurt larger groups?

Healix.5819:

The majority of people are likely just going to login and play. They won’t even think of using the LFG tool to taxi – they’ve probably never even used it before. As a result, a lot of these people are going to find themselves on inactive maps, which is going to cause a poor experience.

Taxi’ing only worsens the problem for everyone else. They should start by removing the reserved spots for party joiners and volunteering should work in reverse with a much greater incentive (maps fill to ~125% capacity, then split, ideally into a duplicate map in terms of progression). Teaching players that group events are in fact scaled for 3+ people, not just zergs, and displaying how many people are near an event would also greatly help.

I’ve never intentionally taxied, and this game is pretty miserable as a solo player looking for on-the-fly group content.

Ever since TTS ruined everything with Taxis at marionette, tequatl and triple worm, and seeing a populated map of people who could have finished the event on the map they were one just vanish as an event was spawning, I kinda refused to be a part of that. I’ve never finished any of the content because of the taxi mentality existing.

I dunno, it makes everything about the game sucky for me, doubly so since I want to play support, but I absolutely don’t want to have to ask permission from someone on a map or in a guild to participate in world content.

Ardenwolfe.8590:

BloodyNine.7504:

This is an MMO, not a solo game. The emphasis should NEVER be on solo play.

Except that’s the standard they set with the core game, so this logic doesn’t fly.

DoctorDing.5890:

The whole game is built on solo play with casual grouping. That’s why it is so popular, just like GW1 was.
A game that requires lots of waiting around to group for normal stuff is a short-lived game.

This a thousand times over. It was a selling point for God’s sakes. And it’s not a smart move to alienate the very people you attracted and made your game a bestseller. +1

+1 But the truth is that the most dedicated players are the mega MMO oriented ones. It was obvious which direction ANet need to take.

Sorry, this game is called a Massive Multiplayer or a Massive Single Player?

Winry.5897:

Sorry, this game is called a Massive Multiplayer or a Massive Single Player?

When the game gets a new expansion or there are new zones added. HoT content will be empty and it will be massive singleplayer regardless or not if HoT is rebalanced or not.

The difference is that players can access HoT content even when there are no players around.

There is one thing I agree with the OP, where I wish HoT maps were a bit more solo-friendly: Hero Points.

Too many of them have a champ + support mobs spawn that you can’t solo (e.g. because of one shot attacks, fighting them on very confined spaces etc.). Elite status of the primary mob would have been enough to make it challenging and doable by one or two people.
People asking for help on HP are often disrupting the meta chains, especially when a commander rotates on the map with a train of 20-30 people for HP and there are not enough people to help with the meta events.

runeblade.7514:

Winry.5897:

Sorry, this game is called a Massive Multiplayer or a Massive Single Player?

When the game gets a new expansion or there are new zones added. HoT content will be empty and it will be massive singleplayer regardless or not if HoT is rebalanced or not.

The difference is that players can access HoT content even when there are no players around.

Mega server makes this unlikely. Let’s say 10,000 people are playing PvE at the same time. I’m pretty sure that’s low, but let’s pretend.

If there are 50 maps, that’s an average of 200 people per map.

So obviously maps with meta events will have higher populations and events with no events like that will have lower populations. Let’s also assume that not all meta/map events are running at all times.

It’s quite easy to fill a map with something like the megaserver system.

Winry.5897:

Sorry, this game is called a Massive Multiplayer or a Massive Single Player?

Massively Multiplayer. If you pay attention, there’s no mention of teams or groups in that name. It doesn’t even imply “cooperative”, even though in pve that is usually the case. All that MMO means is that at the same time there’s a lot of people playing you can interact with. “Can”, not “have to”.

Anet should not assume that there will be always tons of players for the content they made. Not since it has been proved many times already that it’s often not the case. They designed such a great feature as scaling. They should not be afraid to fully utilize it.